Newbie 855 (Game over)

[Y]

/Confirm.

I'm here to help you guys (And PP), so feel free to ask.

Go town!

[Y]

Mod: Rules 6 and 18 have grammar/php mistakes. Not a biggie.

[Y]

To everybody else: READ THE RULES. Even if you think you know them, some rules differ from mod to mod.

[Y]

I'm basically an IC filling an SE slot just so you know.

So you're the scum IC then? (Joke. All roles are distributed randomly)

[Y]

The best thing to do is to press the "Preview" button and read the post. Then edit and preview again until you like what you see.
It also helps you making sure the BBCode is right (People usually mess up quotes), and you can see posts sent after you started writing.

[Y]

Socrates, what do you think of the fact that Y already has 3 votes?

What do

you

think about it? Ignoring the fact that I have only two, why didn't you unvote if you thought a player is at L-1 on P2?

You didn't mention the new post view to prevent simultaneous posting, which I did. Which is something important to know. I don't repeat people if I have nothing to add.

[Y]

I'm also keen to find out why Y is misrepresenting his actions to make Alduskkel look worse though - he put him at L-2 NOT L-1, and that is a pretty significant difference even if the 2 and the 1 is right next to each other.

I never claimed to be at L-1. I asked Alduskkel why he didn't unvote when he thought (Mistakenly) that I am at L-1.
The point isn't how many votes I really had, but how did Alduskkel react when he thought I'm about to be lynched.

[Y]

Sorry, thought we need four to lynch. My bad.

[Y]

Actually, I believe Aldus is trying to create conversation, which is better than random voting.

@ Adus: I did repeat what you said, but I added content which I thought is important. It didn't just look like I'm helping, I really did.

@ Socrates: When a player helps people, they tend to trust him. Scum uses that to earn the trust of the town. The problem is that scum don't want to help the town, so they just make it look like they're helping. That's what Adus is saying.

[Y]

I wouldn't vote in this case. The ICs are supposed to answer those questions.

Just to be noted: I'm not accusing Aldus with anything and I actually do understand his point.
That said, in this case that point doesn't apply, since I did add extra content.

About the vote mistakes: There's nothing there. Aldus counted bolded votes without checking the voters' names, so he missed the fact that one is a re-vote.
I just didn't do the math. Once I realized it, I corrected myself.

It seems like there's a lot of confusion around here. It might be a good idea for everybody to re-read the thread. It isn't too long.

[Y]

inb4 Y repeats this

You're so funny.

[Y]

You know you would've.

It was my life's dream and you ruined it.

[Y]

Mod: Vote count please.

Thanks.

[Y]

YankCane151, you seem like you're trying to make something from nothing.

[Y]

If you actually have a legitimate point to make then make it. Randomly casting your attention around is not helpful. If you have something legitimate to point to then post something, which Cthulhu did not show in his post. If you are just saying, "Hey I think we should look at so and so" does not help the town. "I think we should look at so and so because of X evidence," is helpful to the twon.

While this is mostly true, sometimes people have what they call a "Gut Feeling", which is actually a thought they can't fully express with words. Not all gut feelings should be taken as proved truth, but they shouldn't be completely dismissed either. Questioning the player who had that "Feeling" usually helps understanding why he had it in the first place, which might actually lead to scum.

I'm getting completely confused with CthulhuDreams and YankCane151. Could some one who knows which one of them said what and what's the case summarize it please. Thanks.

[Y]

FOS: Y for again, explaining something and then not following up on it at all.

Again?

More seriously, what's confusing you?

I confused some of your posts with 151's. I can go back and read, but I'd like to see people's take on things before I do.

[Y]

Mod: Nice to see you. Vote count ASAP please.

[Y]

Looks like the game is starting to die, so here are some things to get it going again:

@ 151, foilist and CD: What do you think about the game? Who's your top target and why?

@ Zhero: Can you please summarize your thoughts about foilist?

Mod: Can we please (PLEASE!) have a vote count? Could you please prod purple princess and VertFire? Thanks.

[Y]

My top target is getting a vote count.

@mod: VOTE COUNT!

That's not an answer. That's avoiding the question.

Not having a vote count isn't a reason not to have a conversation.

[Y]

151 seems to be leading the vote count. I've heard CD, but I'd like to know why other people are voting him.

Zhero: You're accusing foilist and named him as your top suspect when answering my question, yet you're voting 151. Why?

[Y]

Sorry. I asked him specifically about foilist.

I seem to be really messing up this game.

[Y]

Sorry all. I had a couple of crazy weeks with moving to a new apartment, starting college and having some family stuff. The game was almost dead most of the time anyways. Glad to see it's active again.

I have no one as a top target right now, but with an active game I guess I'll have something soon.

I'll get some good sleep and I believe in a couple of days I'll be at my usual game (With a higher level of activity).

[Y]

imkingdavid, I'll be happy to hear your thought about the game.

[Y]

Once you're up to date, of course.

[Y]

Thinking about it, the 'I'm an SE and was just putting forward information' thing is total bullshit. If you're just putting forward information, why did you back it up with a vote. Putting up the vote takes it totally out of the 'for information only' realm, because you patently didn't provide only information.

also the 'YankCane accused me of lurking' is just ignoring the context in the thread.

I like this point. foilist, don't hide behind the SE role.

[Y]

@ foilist: What made you stop suspecting CD?

FoS foilis. This might become a vote if I don't like his answers.

Mod: Can we have VertFire prodded?

[Y]

The accusations and the vote were in the same post. Quote a post to counter that if you think I'm wrong.

With four days to deadline,

Vote foilist13

.

Mod: Please send some prods. Thanks.

[Y]

Y has been staying off of YC's wagon.

Not true. With the limited access I had in the last few weeks, he got as much attention as anybody else. I referred to him as 151.
I know I haven't been talking a lot, but most of what I've read this game seems irrelevant. Nothing really screams "scum" to me.

As to foilist, he's been inconsistent and I feel like he's more into telling the town what not to do and how not to play instead of actually doing anything.

The YC's wagon seems to me like everybody just chose a scape goat. I won't have a problem hammering him if it comes to deadline though.

[Y]

Sorry, thought we need four to lynch. My bad.

Why did you think it was only four to lynch?

Not sure, but I was at the end of two games at the time and the last newbie I played from the beginning had 7 players.

While I believe foilist is a better lynch than YC, Iwould lynch YC if needed. If we do not lynch some one today, we start D2 exactly as we were. Scum will probably kill a townie that no one suspected and we'll have no voting records to lead us. Besides, risking a townie lynch is better than not trying to hit scum.

My vote remains. Will change if necessary for a lynch due to deadline.

[Y]

I'm not a power role, so I'm not going to claim.

Essentially evading a vanilla claim. Either PR (And you will be lynched acting like that) or scum. A vanilla isn't really something to hide.

[Y]

It won't be needed then, I guess...

[Y]

lol, I classify 'not reading the thread' and 'not reading the last part of the thread' as pretty much the same thing.

You would, but it isn't. It happens a lot that some one enters a thread and sees some new posts, but misses the fact that there is a new page. Happened to me a few times (Including this game with the same page).

[Y]

While I hate YC lynched as town, I can't say it was completely unexpected. In my POV, at least.

[Y]

I'll have to re-read imkingdavid and his predecessor before I'll answer that question.

[Y]

I want to check how, and more importantly by who, imkingdavid got noticed.

I still don't like foilist. I thought he is scum D1, and nothing he did changes it. He was on the YC wagon like the others, and he's now pushing the player who attacked him. He excluded himself from the "suspects list" and everybody follows. Not good.

[Y]

You'll notice that I explicitly excluded myself from my suspect list and said why. Accusing me of doing that is a moot point.

That would be right if it was meant for you. But it isn't.
What I was trying to say is that you excluded yourself, which would be reasonable by any one (No one tries to prove he himself is scum), and then other people followed without questioning. Your behavior is expected. Other people following it isn't.

[Y]

While PP didn't say much, david did post good posts and gave a good town vibe (We now know he was in fact a townie).

While he did vote YC (Leading to his lynch), the player he most talked about and appeared to suspect was foilist. He also commented that he'll be putting an eye on him today.

That added to the general feeling of foilist trying to cover up the mistakes he did, I'll

Vote foilist13

.

[Y]

Gladly. Everybody thought I was accusing foilist for excluding himself. I was actually accusing the people who followed him without addressing him as a possible suspect. See 251's last sentence as reference.
Notice how Socrates just followed foilist's list, ignoring the fact that foilist himself should be part of the list as well.

[Y]

@ foilist: I'm voting you because I don't like your posts. Can't exactly put my finger on it, but something seems to be off there. I'm trying to put it into a coherent post, but in the meantime I just want to put my vote where I think it should be.
When I claimed what I did, I wasn't trying to make you look scummy, but to point out how other people dismissed you. When you turn out scum, people will be able to go back and see who ignored you when you acted scummy.

[Y]

@Y - Wouldn't an FoS or HoS be more appropriate? It was my impression that that is what they are for. Also your use of absolutes is off putting, but I can't do anywhere with that.

I wanted you lynched D1. YC being lynched doesn't change that.

[Y]

Sorry for not posting wall posts, but the time I have to invest in the game went down dramatically since I signed up for this game and when it started. Anyway, I'll try to put as much as I can in this post.

The reads list I promised:

CD: I get mostly newbie vibes from him. Nothing really scummy. I do feel like he's trying to hunt scum, but doesn't really knows how to. The "not reading the thread" accusation, for example, is not a real accusation, since people pay attention to the thread depending on personality, not alignment. Scum read as carefully as town in order to find points to use as leverage on town-wagons. Scum do tend to be more careful while posting though.

Kerrigan (I'm not using SK since there's a role with the same abbreviation): I like the way he keeps pushing for answers and doesn't let people leave things unanswered. Seems to use good logic.

Zhero: I don't share the suspicions of some other players against him. He hasn't been lurking a lot more than any other player at the time. His posts, while not numerous, seem to have content. I do agree with his claim to leave the "I'm here" posts out.

Socrates: While Socrates started as a seemingly good townie, his later posts changed my mind. Post 251 (The one on which he removed foilist from the suspects' list) really bothers me. The way he tried to shake the responsibility later bothers me as well. Notice how in 171 he identifies with CD, just to accuse him for it later (Post 251 again).

Alduskkel: I have a bad feeling about him, but I think it might just be the bad start we had D1. I would like to hear more from him.

foilist: Well, you all know what I think about him, but I'll try to put something more concrete into it.
First of all, I feel like whenever he gets attacked, he tries to deflect suspicion to some one else instead of actually addressing the claims (i.e the "Not reading the thread" case). I also don't like the way he keeps having an escape rout from commitment. While voting YC, he kept attacking CD and ignored YC's unwillingness to claim. He's your biggest suspect, the one you're voting for, shouldn't you be questioning

him

? I see something similar with Zhero. He keeps pushing his lynch (291) after admitting there's not much in that case (263).

I'm leaving my vote as is, with Socrates a close second and Aldus a possible third.

[Y]

And yet again, when trouble comes, he switches votes.

[Y]

Mod: Vote count please. Thanks.

[Y]

@Y - My argument for Zhero no longer held up, but it did for Alduskkel. So you're saying I should have left my vote where it was even though I no longer believed that he was the best choice?

That "Argument" has been proved wrong already. If you find no one really scummy, a FoS, or nothing at all, might be a good idea. Some one even mentioned it earlier. I think it was... YOU.
The cases you make are weak, so whenever a case of yours is attacked, you don't even defend it. Instead, you just make up a new case against some one else.

Your list of people on YC's wagon doesn't include you. Mine do, and you're my choice.

Mod: Vote count and prods would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Y]

Read 297 onwards.

[Y]

@Y - How arrogant of scum would I have to be to narrow the list of possible suspects to three, myself being one of them, when I came within an inch of being lynched yesterday? Think about that. Does that sound like a town player scumhunting, or a scum player blatantly taking absurd risks?

From my point of view, you're scum, so your list is worth nothing. No real risk. Besides, you voicing it like that it WIFOM.
Furthermore, if you want to get picky, you excluded yourself from your list, so not only that your point is moot, but you're also misrepresenting the whole situation.
Presto - Another point to my "foilist is scum" list.

@ CD: You really have a tendency to misunderstand most of the game. Please read more carefully.
I never accused you nor referred to you (Besides saying that you're not scummy. You just make a lot of mistakes). The quote was there to point out Socrates' actions.
I believe foilist is accusing you for this:

I did indeed misread the game.

Not because of Saint's gender.

[Y]

@Y - How arrogant of scum would I have to be to narrow the list of possible suspects to three, myself being one of them, when I came within an inch of being lynched yesterday? Think about that. Does that sound like a town player scumhunting, or a scum player blatantly taking absurd risks?

From my point of view, you're scum, so your list is worth nothing. No real risk. Besides, you voicing it like that it WIFOM.
Furthermore, if you want to get picky, you excluded yourself from your list, so not only that your point is moot, but you're also misrepresenting the whole situation.
Presto - Another point to my "foilist is scum" list.

I'm not following this. Did you expect foilist to include himself in his possible scum list?

No, but I'd also expect him not to comment he

was

in it as an answer to my accusations.

@ CD: You really have a tendency to misunderstand most of the game. Please read more carefully.
I never accused you nor referred to you (Besides saying that you're not scummy. You just make a lot of mistakes). The quote was there to point out Socrates' actions.

I'm not sure where I referred to you accusing me? Can you please point that out?

@Y!: I only used that accusation on Foilist because he specifically invoked it as a town tell himself. I haven't used on anyone else - but I would consider not reading a scum tell in general

if and only if

used to misrepresented someone later.

That seemed like a defense against a nonexistent accusation.

@ foilist: Please claim.

[Y]

I'm not a power role, I have nothing to claim.

This is not a claim. This is avoiding a claim. A townie calls himself "townie". That's what he gets on the role PM. What makes a player go around the actual claim? The fact he doesn't see himself as what he claims.
@ foilist: What's your role?

There is a big difference between not reading the game and misreading it. While the later refers to a person reading, but misunderstanding, the former refers to a player not caring enough to pay attention to the game.
The big difference, from my point of view, between CD and foilist is that I believe CD is making mistakes because he genuinely fails to understand the game, while foilist keeps changing facts and misrepresenting the game state at will.

[Y]

EBWOP:
I said it before and I'll say it again: I don't think "Not reading the thread" is a scum tell. People have RL.

[Y]

Foilist's play is better than YC's and I don't expect the same mistakes from him. Besides, I get scum from foilist. I didn't from YC.

[Y]

BTW, I wasn't okay with YC doing it either. When it comes to that, he deserved the noose.

[Y]

Thats true. Even though i posted it, I hadn't really thought about it earlier.

You also didn't think (Or didn't mention) the posibility of both of you being scum, knowing that one of you is probably going down, so at least the other should be cleared.

[Y]

Y, why (heh) didn't you respond to what I said just above?

Respond to what?

Well, from foilist's supposed PoV that scenario is impossible. Why would he mention it?

He wouldn't. I did, and I did it so everybody have it mind when thinking about their decisions in the game.

[Y]

I believe that there is an importance to what people say, not only what they mean by it.

@ foilist: This is starting to look like an appeal to emotion. There are almost no games in which there's a lot of activity all the time.

[Y]

Good or bad play is different than townish or scummy play. While the later is related to the player's role and how good he's playing it, the former relates to a player's skill level.

There's a big difference between misunderstanding (Bad player) and misrepresenting (Scummy player). A bad player makes genuine mistakes or bad judgement calls, while a scummy player tries to fake those or distort the game state.

Being a good or bad player is a combination of how experience a player has and how good his rhetorical and logical deduction skills are.

While YC and CD seem to be making mistakes just because of their lack of skill, foilist seems to me like a player trying to manipulate the way other people see him and the game. He was caught lying and misrepresenting the game.

I don't want to lynch a player I think isn't scum, but I'd prefer to lynch a player who might be scum (I could be wrong about him) than to end the day with a no-lynch. Notice that I said I would hammer if it comes to deadline, and backed off when I realized that a lynch will occur no matter what.

I'm not tunnel visioning. I have Socrates in my sight and Aldus too. I also have other theories which aren't solid enough at the moment to share.
My vote is on the player I believe should be lynched and his alignment will help me with both my theories and my suspects' list.

[Y]

Then point it out, because I sure didn't see it.

Gladly:

The YC's wagon seems to me like everybody just chose a scape goat. I won't have a problem hammering him if it comes to deadline though.

My vote remains. Will change if necessary for a lynch due to deadline.

FYI: Hohum's rules are lynch whoever has the most votes at deadline. No need to step up for the hammer.

It won't be needed then, I guess...

I hope that clears it.

Also notice:

I'm not a power role, so I'm not going to claim.

Essentially evading a vanilla claim. Either PR (And you will be lynched acting like that) or scum. A vanilla isn't really something to hide.

And now to foilist's baseless accusation:

vote:Zhero

unvote, Vote:Alduskkel.

unvote, vote:CthulhuDreams

unvote, vote:Y

Vote-hopping: Fact.

You'll notice that I explicitly excluded myself from my suspect list and said why.

@Y - How arrogant of scum would I have to be to narrow the list of possible suspects to three,

myself being one of them

, when I came within an inch of being lynched yesterday?

Lying: Fact.

Hmm, I'm starting to rethink my Zhero vote. As I look back he seems less to be lurking than to be inactive. Idk, Alduskkel could be construed as scum, but for the moment I don't have anything that isn't WIFOM. I encourage all the players to take a much closer look at those two, but for now I'm leaving my vote on Zhero.

At the moment I don't see anyone scummier than Zhero. I never said Y was a suspect, nor do I have a case to post on him.

Inconsistencies: Fact.

Zhero and Socrates only posted 11 times(not including their confirmations), and very few of Zhero's had any kind of content. thats active lurking in my book, much more so on the part of Zhero than Socrates.

I've gotten a general town read from Alduskkel so far, so I am going to leave him out for now.

[quote="foilist13", Post 302,"]@Saint - Pretty much yes, but as I said, to me it was pretty much him or Alduskkel. At the moment though Zhero has been more active, and Alsuskkel has not, so for now

unvote, Vote:Alduskkel.

[/quote]

My read on Alduskkel changed primarily because in my mind it is extremely doubtful that there were no scum on YankCane's wagon, and

I narrowed down those people to two possible suspects, Alduskkel being one of them

. To me, that significantly increases the possibility of him being scum.

Lying, Inconsistencies: Fact.

This is a game Cthulhu, it is supposed to be fun. Coming to this thread everyday and seeing one or two if any posts is not fun, its

depressing

. So either I want to move on or I want out, but I'm nit enough of an asshole to replace out from

boredom

. So lets either get some activity rolling, lynch you, or lynch me.

Appeal to emotions: Fact.

As I look back he seems less to be lurking than to be inactive.

@Saint - I'm equating inactivity with lurking, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Lying: Fact.

Zhero and

Socrates

only posted 11 times(not including their confirmations), and very few of Zhero's had any kind of content. thats active lurking in my book, much more so on the part of Zhero than Socrates.

I've gotten a general town read from Alduskkel so far, so I am going to leave him out for now.

@Saint - No I don't have anything besides that, because that is more than sufficient in my mind. I answered your first question in my last post, go read it.

Socrates' posts yesterday were not any ore frequent than the others, but they did have content enough to give me a town read on him.

Zhero and Alduskkel do not have that.

Inconsistencies: Fact.

Y is presenting a lot of "evidence" which in reality is purely gut feeling and conjecture.

Lying: Fact.

I might be tunnel-visioning. I tend to do it. But that's bad play, not scummy play. It hurts the town indeed nevertheless, so I'll try avoiding it.

[Y]

Assuming foilist turns out scum, I believe Socrates is a good candidate for the other scum. The way foilist avoided him seems weird.

I'd also consider Aldus because of the way he kept resisting to the attacks made against foilist. I also didn't like the way foilist cleared him early in the day. The later attack feels forced and might be an intent to bus/clear a scum buddy.

I don't know Zhero's position on all of this which worries me. It means he's not talking enough.

[Y]

I didn't see that coming. Neither saint nor foilist. Hitting both the doc and the cop two nights in a row? Not good.

Mafia probably knew we had a cop, so they tried to gun him down. I'd expect that from some one with good skill.

[Y]

It's not probably, they knew exactly after we lost the doc what we had - because the setup would have given them a mafia roleblocker if there was a cop.

You can never assume they noticed. They might have missed it.

But more importantly - how did you not see lynching foilist coming when you were voting for him?

This is exactly what I was talking about. You are very persistent in understanding something different than other players' intentions.
Of course I saw the lynch coming. I was the one to push it. I was sure he's scum and him being town got me by surprise.

[Y]

When I want to say something, I just do.

[Y]

Mod: Can we have a mass prod?

[Y]

Now that foilist turned out town, Soc seems much less scum to me.

I'm really confused at the moment and I'm not sure who might be scum, but my top suspect is Ald. He seems to post very little and seems jumpy whenever some one says anything that might be considered as scum accusation against him.

[Y]

My case against Soc relied on two things:
1. His vote against CD after doing the same thing.
2. The way he seemed to pair with foilist.

The first point was cleared and well explained, the second is null, since foilist isn't scum.

Could you please quote the post were I said "Experienced"? IIRC, I said "Some one with good skill", which could be any one. Experienced or not.

[Y]

Who do you think has good skill?

If I knew, I'd be voting some one already.

Do you have any examples of this other than the recent skill/experience arguement?

I'm basically an IC filling an SE slot just so you know.

So you're the scum IC then? (Joke. All roles are distributed randomly)

It's not a very good joke, Y. It doesn't make any sense for you to say that an IC in and SE slot is scum.

A joke has no real sence to it. Why to be deffensive?

[Y]

Mod: As an ex-soldier in the Israeli army, I'm obligated to serve in the military reserves. As of Tuesday, December 15th, I'll be gone for a nine-days exercise (Until December 24th). I'm currently trying to get myself dismissed, but I may need a replacement.

Sorry all, but there's nothing I can do about it. I'll let you know if I manage to free myself from it.

[Y]

It insinuates I'm town. That's all. not funny, but not meant to be taken seriously (Thus the 'Joke' tag).

[Y]

I can't point a finger. You're on the bottom of the list though...

[Y]

I completely missed the end of page 18 there, sorry about that.

I did think Ald's reaction there was a little off, now that you mention it, though it could have just been a misunderstanding. As I said earlier, I have a fairly pro-town read on him; I like his contributions to the game.

What contributions?

[Y]

The deadline thing is a pressing issue - particularly as socrates has important input one way or the other.

I'm not underestimating, but what makes Socrates' input particularly important?

[Y]

Mod: I'm off. If I don't post an "I'm back home! Woo-Hoo!!!" post in the next 12 hours, I'll probably won't be here until next week, so please replace me.

Thanks.