Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.

[ZazieR]

Vote Maemuki

To save her from my playstyle

[ZazieR]

Vote: Hewitt

Why hello there.

Although I don't know what to think about the Wulfy not confirming thing, or the person going after him without mentioning this. No really, its a curiosity, and I haven't made up my mind if it actually means anything >.<

Questions:
-Why could one of the mentioned actions have scum motivations behind them? (Wulfy not confirming and ODDin not mentioning this when voting)
-You're saying here that you don't know if either means a thing. Yet in the case it could have meant something about the allignment, wouldn't it have been better to vote one of Wulfy or ODDin, instead of your random vote? If you agree, why didn't you do so?

Woooo! Bring on the Zazie Spamfest, I love 'em ~Hayl

[ZazieR]

Claim: Bulletproof Jester

Discuss.

YJ

Today we learn what's special about Open Games. Namely, the roles present are listed in one of the first few posts. See you all next time.

Have you used this 'tactic' before?

[ZazieR]

Vote Maemuki

To save her from my playstyle

I need saving from my active lurking, not spammers. xP

Anyway!

Vote: Maemuki

, because I have the handwriting of a 5 year old. It sucks.

What I meant was that if you get lynched, you're save from my playstyle

Have you self-voted before during the RVS?

[ZazieR]

Well, your assurance is good enough for me.

Unvote Maemuki, Vote Nikanor

for not posting yet.

Why Nikanor and did this vote have a purpose or was it still random?

[ZazieR]

*barks*
Submited:

Votes ugly bird Maemuki

Did you put Maemuki at L-2 on purpose? If so, why?

And

Maemuki

, what were your thoughts about the wagon on you?

Aww, is that all You can do better than that! ~ Hayl

[ZazieR]

The only time I see people touch on a possible scummy thing and back off our typically scum.

I don't see how it is possibly scummy. I think it is odd that he hasn't confirmed yet and no one mentioned it, especially for people random voting, but its just a poof of WIFOM really, and there is no real reason to try and push it as a real case.

That's why I chose the word 'odd' and not scummy.

There is no way to derive meaning from this...

so I can't attribute scum points for it.

This is scummy. First reason, stating that he can't see himself a real case in it. So why is it odd to him then that nobody pointed it out?
Secondly, saying the bolded. Then why point it out?

[ZazieR]

Seriously you have a

good thought

and you feel like random voting?!!! [...] Your not being aggressive on this, your sitting back and just bringing it up but you don't want to press on it. [...] A late confirmation is null tell. [...] If someone confirmed late it's for any reason and all reasons.

I have a good thought? One that you simultaneously say is also a null tell? But you are criticizing me for not being aggressive over it?

Your views are all over the place if I am reading this right. What was a good thought? How was it a good thought? If its a null tell, why do you want me to aggressively pursue it?

You are not making sense lady.

No, what she's saying makes a lot of sense.
You pointed something out. Discussing that would have been better than a RVS in case it's worth pursuing (Hence, it being a good thought). Yet, you dismiss it and instead go for a random vote (Hence the criticising of you not being aggressive about it).

[ZazieR]

Gah! You started the conversation without me? I guess this is what I get for sleeping in...
I'm getting some good vibes from both Scien and farside here, so I won't vote either of them. Instead, I'll...

Vote: YamiJoey

for his double standards regarding EB and Wulfy. Wulfy gets a vote for hopping on the Maemuki wagon to put her at L-3, but YJ does not mention EB's L-3 vote on Maemuki just a few posts prior.

Uhm, what? Wulfy's vote against Maemuki put Maemuki at L-2.

That's much better. And woooo! 64th post!!! ~ Hayl

[ZazieR]

I thought it was worth mentioning that we had a 'random' vote on what was a person who had not checked in the game yet. It's WIFOM to have suggested anything else about it, and it wouldn't have helped town. However it is something worth noting. Combined with future actions, it may give sight to motives involved.

Before I'll comment on this, can you elaborate on what you mean with 'future actions' in this case?
Also, from this post (Post 37), I get the impression you're suspicious of Farside. If this is true, why no vote?

[ZazieR]

Where do you see the word weak here?

Vote: Hewitt

Why hello there.

Although I don't know what to think about the Wulfy not confirming thing, or the person going after him without mentioning this. No really, its a curiosity,

and I haven't made up my mind if it actually means anything >.<

Now your saying it's weak after I said it was a null tell but seeing the first post it looks frankly like your trying to bring something to a random vote but flutter off into nothing for no reason. No where do you say it's weak.
Is this a note for yourself? Is this a weak attempt at finding something? Was this attempt at anything and why did you wait till I said it was a null tell and weak to say it was weak yourself?

Farside

, what does the bolded in the quote from Scien say to you?

[ZazieR]

[2] No, it wasn't an attempt of anything but an observation. Why did I wait? I didn't, I believe part of the post that you are complaining about said: "No really, its a curiosity, and I haven't made up my mind if it actually means anything." Did I say it was scummy? No I said it was a curiosity.

At least use the full quote when you're trying to defend yourself. Because the part behind the part about curiousity states that you don't know yet if it means anything.
Meaning that you could see it as an indicator of allignment.

[ZazieR]

So in this "choose your own adventure", I immediately attack ODDin on the grounds that he is 'random' voting for an inactive, someone who wouldn't have defended themselves. (Or I guess Wulf on the grounds of the late confirm. Depending on which I wanted to pressure more). I would have to overextend a lot here, because it IS early game and there's nothing to back me up.

Town/scum catch this, and depending on their alignment will manipulate it, or be critical of it. I will get accused for pushing a weak case, and fabricating suspicion. Mainly pretty anti-town stuff. Pressure is immediately taken off ODDin in favor of me, and we are in the same mess as we are now for different reasons.

First of all, you're stating that you'd see whom of Wulfy and ODDin you'd have wanted to presure more. If you wanted to pressure one of them, why no vote?
Secondly, it's noted that you thought that much about yourself.

[ZazieR]

Yes, someone confirming late is a null tell. It was merely an observation. You still think that I should have taken that null tell and pushed a case against ODDin or Wulf over it? I still think this sounds like you are arguing both sides. Pushing that case would have been scummy, just like not pushing it is apparently scummy (I don't understand why the latter is the case though).

I don't see why you wondered if confirming late could be scummy when you state here that you think it's a nulltell. Please explain this. This reinforces my earlier statement as well that you stated it was odd that it didn't get mentioned, while you state that it's a nulltell.

Also, can you link to your last scum game and your last town game?

[ZazieR]

The I need more sleep Vote Count

Maemuki: Zazie, Maemuki, Wulfy
Hewitt: Scien, Yankcrane
Wulfy: ODDin, YamiJoey
Scien: Farside22
Nikanor: Wulfy
YamiJoey: Nikanor

Not Voting: hewitt, Wulfy, Fuzzyman

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 3 weeks from now. Tuesday 17th November, 9pm English time

Hugs and Kisses
Haylen xxx

Mod

- could you please fix the VC?

Fixed! Thank you *hugs* ~ Hayl

[ZazieR]

This post is scummy. I don't like how ODDin is misinterpreting some things.
(Will comment which and why after Farside has responded)

[ZazieR]

The only thing I don't like from EB's post, is this:

Nikanor was the first person on the list that hadn't yet posted (and the first one period) and I didn't see any other appealing wagon. So it was a little arbitrary (in selection) and a lot policy (as to why).

Calling his Nik vote a policy vote based upon him not having posted yet, while the game started the same day as his vote was made. I also don't trust policy lynches.

[ZazieR]

No, I never self-voted period before. I randomly felt like it. As for the reason, I wanted to make discussion. It worked, didn't it?

Well, we have discussion now. But most of it isn't caused by your selfvote or wagon. It barely brings any discussion and a selfvote is most of the time a distraction.

[ZazieR]

Uhm, what? Wulfy's vote against Maemuki put Maemuki at L-2.

No, EB unvoted Maemuki before Wulfy voted Maemuki. They both put her at L-3.

Than Yami indeed needs to explain why he only called Wulfy out, but not EB.

[ZazieR]

So my problems with

ODDin

's post:

She's also getting "royally pissed" over this, and I'm not sure why that is. I mean, really, headdesk over that?

The statement of being "royally pissed" was used to describe something else, namely the back and forth between Farside and Scien. Because what they are discussing the whole time is basically the same thing.
As for the head desk, do you disagree that when somebody points out something he sees as a possible lead, but doesn't persue it, deserves a head desk or something like that or not?

It's also giving me a tunneling vibe. She's practically disregarded all other players during that exchange.

Not liking this. There's barely any discussion besides the arguments between Scien and Farside. Heck, even you (ODDin) mentioned one thing besides this discussion.
Add that Farside has mentioned mainly this, but not only this.

Last is ODDin twisting Farside's argument here:
Why would she do that? I have an idea:

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

Could well be read as: look how extremely and terribly aggressive I'm being right now. Ergo: I'm not scum.

[ZazieR]

So my problems with

ODDin

's post:

She's also getting "royally pissed" over this, and I'm not sure why that is. I mean, really, headdesk over that?

The statement of being "royally pissed" was used to describe something else, namely the back and forth between Farside and Scien. Because what they are discussing the whole time is basically the same thing.
As for the head desk, do you disagree that when somebody points out something he sees as a possible lead, but doesn't persue it, deserves a head desk or something like that or not?

It's also giving me a tunneling vibe. She's practically disregarded all other players during that exchange.

Not liking this. There's barely any discussion besides the arguments between Scien and Farside. Heck, even you (ODDin) mentioned one thing besides this discussion.
Add that Farside has mentioned mainly this, but not only this.

Last is ODDin twisting Farside's argument here:

Why would she do that? I have an idea:

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

Could well be read as: look how extremely and terribly aggressive I'm being right now. Ergo: I'm not scum.

(EBWOP I added quote tags in the last paragraph to make it clear what ODDin said)

[ZazieR]

The head desk was actually because of YJ and Maemuki exchange. It made me want to cry. Also note I'm very sarcastic person and it's just my nature to be sarcastic.

@zazie: I may be tunnel visioned. I always feel I could be but most of the talk was just me and scien going back and forth anyways with little said from anyone else on the matter.

No, it was for both the Yami-Maemuki convo and for what Scien did:

I almost felt like smacking my head on my desk reading the exchange between YJ and Maemuki.

Wow this is so weak. I mean really? Seriously you have a good thought and you feel like random voting?!!!
*smacks head on desk*

Though I picked the Scien one as the first implied you wanted to do so, while you actually did in the second.
Though in both situations, it's not a big deal to me.

And I did point that out about ODDin's tunnelvision argument against you.

[ZazieR]

Calling his Nik vote a policy vote based upon him not having posted yet, while the game started the same day as his vote was made. I also don't trust policy lynches.

One vote isn't a policy lynch; and I haven't even approached such a situation, so I really can't say whether I'd kill for it. Right now I'd simply say that I've become more dedicated to pressuring lurkers into speaking or being replaced. Again, from my last game regarding Vaya-scum, right before I placed the losing vote:

Either way this works out, I think the Vaya situation indicates a need to out lurkers better in the future, but other than his play yesterday there's no particular evidence.

Not having evidence cost the game. I don't want that to happen again. Do either of you feel that's a scum tell?

Sorry, made a mistake there >.<
It should have said: 'I also don't trust policy votes'.
And no, I don't think that lurking is a scum tell.

[ZazieR]

The Withdrawal Symptoms Vote Count

Farside22: ODDin, YankCane
Fuzzyman: ElectricBadger, Wulfy
Maemuki: Zazie
Hewitt: Scien
Scien: Farside22
YamiJoey: Nikanor
Fuzzyman: ElectricBadger, Wulfy

Not Voting: hewitt, Fuzzyman, Maemuki, YamiJoey

Love you guys
Haylen xxx

Why does it seem that everybody is justifying everything with, "It doesn't matter since you were nowhere close to lynch"? A vote is a signifier of intent to lynch.

Why did you state this, instead of your thoughts about some players?

[ZazieR]

The statement of being "royally pissed" was used to describe something else, namely the back and forth between Farside and Scien. Because what they are discussing the whole time is basically the same thing.
As for the head desk, do you disagree that when somebody points out something he sees as a possible lead, but doesn't persue it, deserves a head desk or something like that or not?

Not really, no. It's something to note, it may even be something to vote over to start discussion early in the day. It's not something to be annoyed over so much. farside seems overly emotional over this. Reading over the whole exchange makes me wanna go "jeez, come down..."

Farside has stated that this is natural behaviour from her. Have you checked if this is true? If not, why?

Not liking this. There's barely any discussion besides the arguments between Scien and Farside. Heck, even you (ODDin) mentioned one thing besides this discussion.

That's why I said "tunneling vibe". It's not strictly tunneling at this point, due to the lack of much else to talk about.

Then why point it out?

Question: What's your impression of scum in your games? Are they mostly passive or mostly aggressive?

[ZazieR]

a very weak reason for a vote was better than a completely random vote.

So your reason that you didn't point this out after Scien stated the stuff about Wulfy, is?

[ZazieR]

Unvote, Vote: Farside

Working too hard over a simple arguement in the RVS

Why didn't you point me out?

[ZazieR]

Just saw I forgot to vote Scien last time ._.

Unvote Vote Scien

[ZazieR]

ODDin

, why point out that your vote against Farside was a pressure vote?

[ZazieR]

What would you have done in farside's shoes?

Bought a new pair, her shoes would probably be too big for me .__. ~ Hayl

At whom was this aimed, Fuzzy?

[ZazieR]

Also,

Fuzzy

, you stated earlier that you don't like pressure votes. Why didn't you comment on ODDin's vote?

[ZazieR]

farside - of course I expect you to defend. I was replying to post 97, where you basically said that I voted you over a very weak argument. Yes, it's weak, but mind you, I don't think you can hold that against me at this point in the game. The beginning of the day is a good time to be voting and pressuring over all sorts of things to stir things up and get healthy discussion. You accused Scien of *not* doing that, after all.

And it was you who stated this about what Farside did:

On the farside / Scien exchange:
It seems to me farside is being extremely and overly aggressive. The argument against Scien does have a point, but it's not an overly strong point. Yes, it raises an eyebrow that he decided not to push it a bit further to get out of the RVS - but nothing more than that. It's a very, very weak scum tell at best. farside is, IMO, blowing it completely out of proportion.

But in the first quote, it seems you agreed with Farside.