Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[AGar]

Yo yo yo!

Shoot, 3 people in this game I've played with *shifty eyes*

Vote: Papa Zito

[AGar]

Those of you who don't already have them on your wiki page: could you post links to some/all of your completed games?

For being the first to post in the game: [voted Scien]

My wiki is up to date with games that are not currently running. Behold!

As for your reasoning for what I believe is a random vote, just out of curiosity, are you claiming there is meaning to derive from the person that posts first? Or is that just an explanation for your vote?

You sir, are overthinking random voting.

IGMEOY.

[AGar]

AGar, if you aren't "Berserking" around this game, I *will* vote for you with an avatar like that...

I will go berserk with judgment. (see what I did there??? ;p)

Oh and this: "You sir, are overthinking random voting."

On the contrary, I was making sure

THEY

weren't over thinking a random vote.

Surely you would want me to choose the wine in front of you, so I must choose the wine in front of me!

[AGar]

Heh. You can claim I'm using WIFOM that if you want, but my question was obviously only to clarify his position. I never made a claim that I thought it meant something (unless he came back with an answer that suggested that the first post meant something), and you fabricating it otherwise is ridiculous at best and manipulative at worst.

Moar WIFOM!!! :p

I've never actually been able to screw around in the "RVS" as it's either never happened or I've missed it (replacing in). This is a wonderful experience for me

[AGar]

Also:

Papa Zoto, get you're ass in here!

[AGar]

One more try.

For being the first to post in the game.

As for your reasoning for what I believe is a random vote, just out of curiosity, are you claiming there is meaning to derive from the person that posts first? Or is that just an explanation for your vote?

First. How is me making sure that it was truly a random vote, me 'overthinking'.
Second. When I specifically asked in the post you are criticizing if it was merely a reasoning for a random vote, how can you claim that I wasn't looking at their 'thinking'. Instead you accuse me of WIFOM.

Stretch much.

That's enough for a non-random vote.

Unvote
Vote:AGar

Did you miss the tongue smilies and me saying I never get to dick around in RVS? I'm definitely not serious with any of this atm. Just trying to spark discussion in some way or another.

[AGar]

1) AGar: Why do you only want PZ to come in? So you can 2fac him like you always do?

Well, since you forced my hand, I wasn't going to two-fac, I was planning a Deep Six. /starcraftdiscussion

I really feel like ekiM is reaching on Scien here, but I'm not sure. I'm way out of my league in this game

@Raksol - my wiki is up-to-date with every game I've played, and all the games I'm currently in. I implore you to try and understand my meta, because I sure as hell don't.

[AGar]

Oh also, since we've left RVS and I have no reason to really suspect Papa Zito right now:

Unvote

[AGar]

I'm here, for the record. Work + School + Student Government (almost another job in itself) got the better of me.

Catching up now.

[AGar]

Ok, not much there :p

First of all @Troll, I wasn't playing the newbie card. I was playing the "I'm-a-really-shitty-player-in-a-game-amongst-really-good-players" card. But as it were, I'll stop making comments of the like.

Now, to ekiM:

Just did a quick iso and realized he's contributed very little to the game other than fluff: calling Scien out for getting a little worked up over my jokes and then just bullshitting about it and dragging it out further than it needed to go, almost as if he was trying to force a slip that he could jump on. Then he comes back and accuses me of playing the newbie card. Now it would be one thing if I said something like "I don't get how this works" and multiple people had called me out on that. Instead, I said "I'm out of my league" and the only other person to mention this was Zorblag. This really perked me up.

Also, about the unvote - I've played two games with Papa, so I know how he plays fairly well, and I have no reason to leave a vote on him right now, and I'm of the opinion that votes should not be used lightly.

VP, you're not making me easy with your willingness to ignore someone. :/

Vote: ekiM

[AGar]

EBWOP:

Feck.

Meant to add in a bit at the end of "...person to mention this was Zorblag. This really perked me up."

Meant to add "Looks like someone might be trying to make an easy reach on something."

[AGar]

Am I the only one of the opinion that PZ is serious right now?

(this is much different from Dino-toss)

Don't hate Stork.

[AGar]

Secondly to Agar:
Ok, so I was getting worked up over jokes. That's a fair claim. Are you telling me that you don't think I was using WIFOM defenses or 'over thinking' the RVS? There is no truth in that?

I think you might have been very slightly overthinking RVS. The WIFOM was a complete joke, though - you gave a fair response, I was just being an asshat with that one.

[AGar]

@AGar, you, like everyone else in this game, are here because you're good at the game. Troll will let the self-deprecation that has happened already go but not accept any more if it looks like you or anyone else be using it as an excuse for whatever play happens.

I'm just sayin'...

Anyways, the game is kinda goin' slow right now.

[AGar]

Picking up my prod.

I'm a bit interested in the back and forths going on. Amished, why are you so interested in getting peoples opinions out right away? And for SC/Sando - why are you so interested in keeping that to a minimum? Just for the sake of full discussion, because I seemed to have missed it other than "I want to know" and "I don't need to submit to your demands", respectively.

AGar's instant OMGUS on ekiM in post 132 is quite interesting. AGar, how confident in this vote?

I wish I could say I had no failings in my confidence, but he's gone rather inactive, so I can't get a better read of him. However, I feel it fulfills it's purpose right now.

I'm interested in this meta discussion, particularly VP's take on one point. I've played with a few people in this game (Papa Zito and VP have both finished games with me). So I obviously know their styles. Now I've played a game where VP and I were townies and two games with PZ - one where I was scum and he was town, one where he was town and I was town. Under VP's argument, I couldn't really assume a meta for either of them as scum. However, I know of several games where PZ was scum, and I could easily read them over, no? That seems to be something you somewhat overlooked, VP.

Quick bit @SC (and all others interested) - I will have spurts where I don't post for an entire day. Unfortunately, it's the way my schedule is built. I can't post much on Mondays or Wednesdays usually - I'm busy as all get-out. Yesterday was honestly just a bad day for me though. Usually I'm more active on weekends.

[AGar]

Ok, maybe my post about activity came off as harsher than intended. I was somewhat frustrated that we have a lot of good active players and yet only about 1/3 of people were posting. I expected that given 48 hours was prod-able, there would be more activity.

I am not the activity warden, I've lurked through D1 before, and not posted for a while before, I don't mean to be overly critical, I just felt the game could use more participation than just the 4 players who were (lets face it) writing semi-walls about theory that noone else would read.

AGar - unlike Sando, I don't have a problem with giving my reads. What I object to is people asking me to tell them who is scum or who is town when I don't have a good enough idea yet. It makes me feel like I have to take a stance I don't believe in, or 'make up' reasons why they are scum, and I know for a fact doing that leads me to tunnelling and playing badly. So if someone asks me a question I don't have an answer to, like tell me who is scum, or place your vote on someone non-random, I can't give them what they want. Believe me, you'll hear a lot about my reads throughout the game.

For the first part - no worries. I was just letting people know. The past few games I've played have accused me of active lurking because I make a few bah posts or stupid posts in mishmash (I'm in Scumleague) but it's literally because those take 30 seconds, and my schedule is crammed into two days.

To the second - fair enough. I just wanted to know what the general debate was about. Thank you. Think I have some further ideas here.

[AGar]

Then he comes back and accuses me of playing the newbie card. Now it would be one thing if I said something like "I don't get how this works" and multiple people had called me out on that. Instead, I said "I'm out of my league" and the only other person to mention this was Zorblag. This really perked me up.

ekiM showed you say "I really feel like ekiM is reaching on Scien here, but I'm not sure. I'm way out of my league in this game " and then you unvoted your RVS vote because there was no real reason to suspect PZ.
Which is pretty strongly saying that you feel something is suspicious, but are not sure because supposedly being not in others' league, which is a reference to lack of proficiency and seemed a potentially deliberate fence-sit, and had no meaningful difference to playing the newbie card in this context.
Also, what does few vs. multiple people calling you out have to do with anything?
I really don't get this coupled with the OMGUS vote.

I don't follow this at all - it's completely incoherent. If clarified, I might be able to respond to it, but right now, it's all garbled.

I wish I could say I had no failings in my confidence, but he's gone rather inactive, so I can't get a better read of him. However, I feel it fulfills it's purpose right now.

And what is that purpose

Letting people know where I stand on issues, possibly pushing a read out of a player, or other players. Generating discussion as well.

Under VP's argument, I couldn't really assume a meta for either of them as scum. However, I know of several games where PZ was scum, and I could easily read them over, no? That seems to be something you somewhat overlooked, VP.

Reading over or having read over games were not in his original statement. I'm not going to assume he has simply because that is something he COULD do. Incomplete meta is incomplete meta and could simply be scum excusing their partner's behavior without explanation. /quote]

Ok, fair enough.

@AGar: {Why I want opinions out right away} I feel it breeds a better D1 atmosphere to actually look for people who aren't operating on the towns agenda, and get people to talk about something. Low activity games hurt the town. If I get everyone to talk about something, then it's helpful to my faction.

Duly noted.

---

I'm going to wait until ekiM's replacement before really doing much more, because that's where my first suspicion lies.

[AGar]

I don't follow this at all - it's completely incoherent. If clarified, I might be able to respond to it, but right now, it's all garbled.

I'm slightly ESL impaired, apparently this was one of those moments. I'll try again.

Sorry if I came across a little brutal in that.

Your reason for voting ekiM was this:

Then he comes back and accuses me of playing the newbie card. Now it would be one thing if I said something like "I don't get how this works" and multiple people had called me out on that. Instead, I said "I'm out of my league" and the only other person to mention this was Zorblag. This really perked me up.

Mike accused you of this:

I really feel like ekiM is reaching on Scien here, but I'm not sure. I'm way out of my league in this game Razz

Oh also, since we've left RVS and I have no reason to really suspect Papa Zito right now:

Unvote

Do not like. Don't try and play the newbie card in this game.

I do not understand your thought process. There is no meaningful difference in playing a lack of proficiency card or playing a lack of experience card. I do not understand what is the relevance of multiple people calling or not calling you out. I also felt your deliberate unvote and rhetoric of really thinking someone is scummy but excusing yourself from taking a firm stance was somewhat scummy.

I don't think I made this clear - ekiM was the second to address the "lack of proficiency" card, after Zorblag had noted it, and it looked like he was looking for an easy reason to make something. Also, I got voted for unvoting my RVS vote. Like I said, I still don't really have any reason to suspect PZ right now. It's no big surprise to me how he's going about day 1. As for the last part, I really wasn't sure on what my read on ekiM was when I unvoted, and I'm not going to throw a vote on someone for the hell of it.

The rest of your reasons for voting Mike were exactly the same ones you felt were not worthy of a vote rather than a fence-sit earlier - reaching on Scien. This isolates the reason for your vote completely to a reaction for Mike suspecting you.
I want you to explain the thought process to me.

The style of reaction - the using the me playing the "newbie card" reasoning and unvoting to vote me - is why I found it voteworthy. Somewhat reactionary, but moreso because of how he did it than what he did.

I'm going to wait until ekiM's replacement before really doing much more, because that's where my first suspicion lies.

That's me. How can I help you?[/quote]

I'm just curious on thoughts on the game - that was lacking from ekiM, which is what helps me establish my reads.

---

If people want to wonder about my meta, they can read this and use it as they will, if not, skip it. My playstyle is all kinds of awful. Very reactionary, OMGUS-y, and aggressive. People usually find me scummy. It's how they go about doing it that I make my reads on them. There are flaws to my gameplay which I usually defend, then there are people who make the reaches whom I usually find to be scum.

[AGar]

I'll also be V/LA for the weekend, have to run a lock-in event on campus and it's taking all my time up.

[AGar]

No.

oDDin, I don't like that vote.

Vote: oDDin

[AGar]

oDDin, I don't like that vote.

Care to elaborate?[/quote]

OMGUS. Seemingly empty vote to start off a day. Skewed viewpoints. Just to name a few.

I really need to give this game a serious re-read, but you guys aren't like newbies and actually post mountains. Gonna need to do a re-read tomorrow. Serves me right for signing up for a non-newbie game. :p

[AGar]

Long read is over. Whew. 19 pages later, my brain is toast.

Three major points for me:

1. ODDin rubs me the wrong way. A lot of things stuck out to me, convincing me I need to iso him tomorrow during my office hour. But I generally dislike his play and cases.

2. Zorblag, you're on my top 2 right now. Your D1 play was epically non-committal, and seemingly cautious as well. Again, I need to iso this to get a more wholistic read on things, but I'm not liking it.

3. There should probably be way more pressure on me since I have not really contributed as much as I would personally have liked to in this game. It actually pisses me off that no one has come after me for anything yet, because I gain reads that way.

Papa Zito's 409 is just one big wtf.

No.

oDDin, I don't like that vote.

Vote: oDDin

What, why? I don't see any problem with his PZ vote.

I pointed out my reasons. I also am garnering a town read in that direction (PZ) right now, so with the massive undercomprehension I had at that time of voting, it was a good decision in my eyes.

-AGar---would you say it's usual for you to park your vote all Day? Were you that sure that ekiM was scum?

It's less of that and more of I ended up being on V/LA for the 4 days preceding the deadline. I don't intend on repeating that feat this time around.

WRT Scien's NK stuff - I really don't think it muddies the water if you can look at it objectively. I hate how people want to steer clear of NK analysis until "later in the game." I, for one, find it fascinating and useful. Obviously not a concrete case in itself, but definitely something that can be used, imo.

More later. For now, it's pushing 5 AM and I'm going to get some much needed sleep (woo class in 7 hours!!!).

[AGar]

Shit, quick EBWOP:

I left VP's comment about PZ's post #409 in for a reason.

It's not a WTF, at least in my eyes.

Pretty much boils down to one of the few times I would use meta - I understand the oddities/quirks of how PZ plays, and the post didn't set off any red bells for me.

[AGar]

@Ojanen - On it's own, OMGUS is a null-tell in my book. However, with other factors, I feel it

can

hint at some things.

As for the V/LA - I honestly didn't expect things to be so absorbed but the event sucked up my life for that weekend, and had I come back, my vote would have definitely moved.

The quote you want me to elaborate on - at the time ekiM was my first suspicion, and in the minimal time I had been able to devote to the game then I was only able to really concentrate on ekiM.

---

@Raskol - Sando. After the re-read I did the other day, Sando still struck me as off in his play-style, even knowing he was town. It just didn't seem right to me. Had I been around and active, I would've likely also made the move to hammer.

---

@Scien - It was based off of the fact that I felt ODDin's case was extremely flimsy and trash and I didn't like the style he went about things. It was almost completely off-the-hip at that time, as I hadn't really completely digested all of the information from day 1 but I definitely don't feel that I'm wrong in casting it right now.

---

The general feel of my read on ODDin is off just like I had with Sando after a re-read. I know Sando was town, but as I said, I still don't agree with him and still felt uneasy reading his posts. A lot of them seem like they generate something but in reality they just show he is hung up on little technicalities that people seem to catch him on. Very on the defense. Very edgy in his posting.

[AGar]

I can't help but laugh at the style of ABR's entire post.

I guess I'll address things:

Posts all fluff in the first 6 pages in the game and then gits angsty over eKim fluffin his way in a likey fashion. Omgusy on top of that, but lil hypocrisy never killed neone so I just keep that in my mind fer later.

I see how you read it that way, but it was more on the fact that he tried building a case off of a flimsy belief that I was playing the newbie card when I wasn't even trying anything of the like, and had explained that.

So I'm payin extra extra attention to him in my read you see. But the rest of his play can be described as a wild mess that fails to meet my standards of pro-town play.

Not the first time I've been told that my play style isn't kosher. Not the first time I've been accused either. No big deal.

Post 308 looks like more of what others have pointed out at nub card pointin, scummy playstyle coverin and little actual helpin.

Eh, not really meant to be a big pro-town post, just a bit more reaction posting.

452 is nice, AGar inventin words like "undercomprehension" to describe his allegedly weaksauce readin ability, but he accuses Zorblag and ODD(in) which is a fresh departure from his ekim tunnelin strategy to this point.

I invent words a lot, I enjoy it. Might as well get used to it.

I've also further explained I was MIA for a number of meatworld days on D1 and missed a lot of big developments. Hence the departure from the ekiM/Charlatan tunneling.

3. There should probably be way more pressure on me since I have not really contributed as much as I would personally have liked to in this game. It actually pisses me off that no one has come after me for anything yet, because I gain reads that way.

Conscience gettin guilty I see. Yeeea not trustin you much.

[Votes for Me]

Yes and no. Yes on the fact that I haven't been able to put forth as much as I would have liked to in this game. No to any other implications I'm picking up on.

Anything else you want from me?

[AGar]

w00t got my quote tags right. Took long enough.

[AGar]

@Ojanen - On it's own, OMGUS is a null-tell in my book. However, with other factors, I feel it can hint at some things.

Not understanding you here actually. I asked because you said earlier you OMGUS all the time and then voted ODDin because

OMGUS. Seemingly empty vote to start off a day. Skewed viewpoints. Just to name a few.
I really need to give this game a serious re-read, but you guys aren't like newbies and actually post mountains. Gonna need to do a re-read tomorrow. Serves me right for signing up for a non-newbie game. :p

Later explained

I pointed out my reasons. I also am garnering a town read in that direction (PZ) right now, so with the massive undercomprehension I had at that time of voting, it was a good decision in my eyes.

You had "undercomprehension", which means you didn't remember why ODDin was voting PZ or what?
What do you mean by the seeming emptiness of the vote?
I'm having a hard time isolating the rest of the reasons here besides the OMGUS that you think is null.

OMGUS I find to be a null-tell on it's own. Meaning, if ALL I see from someone is OMGUS, I generally move on with life. I do tend to OMGUS a lot, which is why I personally find it as a null-tell alone. Sometimes, though, with other information, it can paint a picture.

"Undercomprehension" meant I hadn't fully read the thread more than at face value. At that point in time, I had read the thread enough to have a general idea of what went on and what was going on. But before the re-read, I hadn't poked in depth at things due to general time constraints.

The perceived emptiness was pointing at the fact that I felt ODDin's case to be bullshit and a terrible excuse to vote at PZ.

[AGar]

The perceived emptiness was pointing at the fact that I felt ODDin's case to be bullshit and a terrible excuse to vote at PZ.

Did you always feel this way? Was there a reason you didn't mention it D1 when they started attacking each other?

Honest to god? I was skimming through D1. I had it rough right before and after thanksgiving and as I've said, didn't put my all into the game really. So I wasn't really catching onto the case.

[AGar]

I want to reread AGar, but as I've said above, I'm not sure when I'll manage to do that. The problem is, him saying "I was skimming through D1" negates many possible arguments.

"I was skimming" should not be a way out.

AGar, to verify, you have caught up fully now, yes?

For the first part - I don't intend on using it as a "way out", per se. But it's what I was doing, so I will use it to back things up.

For the second. Yes.

Also, I just got a major shift from that last post of Troll's. I need a new number two on my list. Right now I stand alone with ODDin as my numero uno.

[AGar]

@ODDin - had I been here yesterday, I would've been suspicious of you. Not enough to vote, because Sando was waving scumflags all over the place in my book, but enough to come into today suspicious of you.

[AGar]

@ODDin - had I been here yesterday, I would've been suspicious of you. Not enough to vote, because Sando was waving scumflags all over the place in my book, but enough to come into today suspicious of you.

That's what you say.

Understandable that you doubt me, I would too. I'm aware that all of my posts are going to be under major scrutiny now.

[AGar]

I feel like I can read AGar at this point in my career...

Please expand.

Unvote: AGar. Vote: Zorblag.

We've played a couple games together, both times PZ has nailed my role by D1's end. Just didn't manage to convince others the first time 'round.

[AGar]

LOL.

That is all for now.

[AGar]

ODDin, what are your reads on AGar and VP Baltar?

It has no mathematical basis (the chances to hit scum randomly in each group are equal at best)

It's not about that. I trust my ability to hit one goon out of a pool of three players a lot more than my ability to hit one or two goons out of a pool of six or seven players.

This highlights the bulk of what I want to address: how are you so sure that a scum player was on the wagon AND not on the wagon? How can you be sure that all three weren't on it, or that any of the three were? Got extra info for us?

@Troll: I didn't have a number two to fill the slot, no.

I do now. Crypto.

His general attitude since coming in has really rubbed me the wrong way. The information he is so confident in having just shouldn't be there. His assurances that scum are amongst myself, ODDin and VP isn't something I think he'd be so confident in without information.

I'm probably going to be lynched tomorrow, I guess that's not going to change. That's fine. I haven't played the best game, and it's a pretty fair reasoning to lynch me.

Just take time to make it to the deadline before hammering so a gameplan can be figured out for tomorrow.

[AGar]

I do now. Crypto.

Omgosh, crypto, you suck so much!

Yep.

The information he is so confident in having just shouldn't be there. His assurances that scum are amongst myself, ODDin and VP isn't something I think he'd be so confident in without information.

*bangs face on keyboard till forehead splits* I posted my source of info. It's experiential. You're trying to construe it as me making an incredibly stupid scum slip, and that premise is incredibly ... well, stupid.

Yep. I'm trying to construe you that way. Damn right. Because it looks that way.

This highlights the bulk of what I want to address: how are you so sure that a scum player was on the wagon AND not on the wagon? How can you be sure that all three weren't on it, or that any of the three were? Got extra info for us?

Oh, so you think

all

scum were either on or off the Sando wagon?

Uh, no. I was questioning your information and how you were so sure. Nice try though.

[AGar]

Yep. I'm trying to construe you that way. Damn right. Because it looks that way.

Go back and read. I was very clear about why I think what I think.

Uh, no. I was questioning your information and how you were so sure. Nice try though.

Again, go back and read. But if you agree with me that all three scum weren't either on or off the wagon, then why is it even a problem for you?

Because I don't "agree" with you. I can't say whether they were all on or off. I don't know. I haven't been able to figure it out yet.

[AGar]

3. There should probably be way more pressure on me since I have not really contributed as much as I would personally have liked to in this game. It actually pisses me off that no one has come after me for anything yet, because I gain reads that way.

Where's the guy who supposedly strives under pressure, where's the reads and reactions t your wagon?
There's a dissonance here to him currently flapping around somewhat phlegmatically, hate the defeatism.
If he's scum, he's taking it too peacefully, I would guess some bussing to have taken effect already in that case.
If you're town, fight dammit, get content out.

The wagon on me is, for the most part, based off of (from what I can tell) my inactivity day 1. I've made my points on that, it's not going to change the people.

These are the cases that I've found on me.

Crypto - voting me because of "scummy behavior" that he has yet to point out and because I wasn't on the Sando wagon.

VP - Because I'm tunneling, devoid of scumhunting ideas and overly lost on D1.

ABR - Because I failed to meet his standard of pro-town play. That's all I managed to glean from his case.

Troll - I'm not interacting with people enough.

So really, of those 4 cases, one is really non-existent (Crypto), two are for my play on D1 (ABR/VP), and one is because I don't have enough suspects (Troll).

I can make a response to one, being Troll's.

I'm trying to stick to a semi-minimalist approach this game because it's a bigger one than I'm used to on MS, with a lot better players. I've played solely in Newbie Games up to this point, so it's a bit easier to catch people who stick out obviously in them. I'm not necessarily ignoring people, but I'm not trying to get fully focused on everyone at once here, because each player has a lot better play than what I'm used to. I don't want to overextend my attention to too many people and botch something because of it, I'd much rather keep my approach to a few players and not get too involved in confusing myself with things.

570 was provoked btw by the fact that I was expecting severely more as reactions and conclusions when the initial reactions to the votes were of this type

LOL.

That is all for now.

That wasn't my response to the vote, heh. That was just to his "One of the three who weren't on the wagon should be lynched" theory.

[AGar]

VP - The defeatism last time was a little different - I felt like you guys were missing things ridiculously obvious. This time I just can't argue the cases. And even if I did post a case right now, it'd be flailing.

[AGar]

I hate to be the kill-joy but I'm gonna /out for the next game.

This game I thought was going to start later than it did and I had taken on 4 NGs plus my regular life commitments right around when this started. I'm massively burnt out and just waiting for my last game I'm in to either kill me or end, whichever comes first then I'm gonna take like a month - two month break from mafia and evaluate my play. I've gotten worse as time went on.

[AGar]

On second thought, if there's room for one more, I'll /in. I'm going to be bored as hell over my break anyways. I left my other computer (and thus, StarCraft) in my apartment in Connecticut for break.

Setup doesn't matter to me, nothing is more broken than one of the games I'm watching develop on another site right now.