Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[Ojanen]

O M G.
I just realised I have been seeing a cangaroo in the place of a dinosaur for half a year.

@Raskol: what do you think about AGar's recent unvote?
After which exact post did you start to find ekiM suspicious?
@Zorblag: do you feel having a methodological predetermined voting pattern is helpful to get us to content stage?

We have two weeks for D1, and less for subsequent days. Let's not faff around for ages.

Last time I saw someone get worked up over an obvious joke in RVS, they were scum.

You seem to want out of RVS, yet you finding Scien's more serious vote suspicious seems to hinder the very process - what gives?

[Ojanen]

Also, I'm starting the game on the worst possible note - I fell pretty ill yesterday. And I must travel extensively and work on top of that during the end of the week, regardless of whether my fever will come down.

@Mod:

I expect access problems until Sunday.
My apologies.
I'll try to drop by when I can.

[Ojanen]

Hi guys. I'm back.
Still sick, just waiting to see if I get pneumonia for doing everything you're not supposed to do while having a fever but I'm done with being on tour so it's ok.
I'll catch my breath and read up today.

[Ojanen]

Then he comes back and accuses me of playing the newbie card. Now it would be one thing if I said something like "I don't get how this works" and multiple people had called me out on that. Instead, I said "I'm out of my league" and the only other person to mention this was Zorblag. This really perked me up.

ekiM showed you say "I really feel like ekiM is reaching on Scien here, but I'm not sure. I'm way out of my league in this game " and then you unvoted your RVS vote because there was no real reason to suspect PZ.
Which is pretty strongly saying that you feel something is suspicious, but are not sure because supposedly being not in others' league, which is a reference to lack of proficiency and seemed a potentially deliberate fence-sit, and had no meaningful difference to playing the newbie card in this context.
Also, what does few vs. multiple people calling you out have to do with anything?
I really don't get this coupled with the OMGUS vote.

I dunno what is up with Sando. His first catch up makes no stance in any direction except "I don't use meta" so incoming questions for him on any playerslots would seem a pretty expected in mafia, but he gets all haughty.

I'm not saying that asking for peoples opinions is scummy, merely asking for run-downs on everyone is scummy.

Fair enough if I got that wrong, I got that wrong, if noone asked me for a complete rundown of everyone, fine. I was in a rush and late to the game, I may have misread it as asking me for that sort of post. However, there's not a lot of difference between asking just who is scummy, and a complete run-down post. Clearly, anyone I don't include as scummy can be assumed as being seen as townie by me, and I'm providing even less info. So there's not exactly a lot of difference.

I don't like the fact that he seemed not willing to admit his mistake, I don't get how he forgot the existance of neutralish between positive and negative.
@Sando: If asking "who is scummy" is almost the same as the rundown thing, what were you referring to in the first quote to as the thing that s not scummy?

After which exact post did you start to find ekiM suspicious?

---Post 36.

This was interesting because Raskol actually didn't vote Mike in his first post after this, although he was stating suspicion on Mike. Which, if I understand correctly, would go against the philosophy he was pressing and from inside which he was formulating suspicions.
For the record on a player who seems serious I view this as more of a slight towntell because it seems honest instead of checked.

I have some more stuff in a bit.

[Ojanen]

I find Amished's initial stance of

However, I rarely use meta (and think it's overall pretty worthless) so don't expect me to really take too much meta discussion.

weird compared to some of the clutter he brought to the thread like

Look at LOST mafia. I'm pretty sure you ignored CKD when he was right about [blah blah]

and the rest of that exchange with VP.

His posts have a carpet of alien overall feel to me. The votehop explanation feels vaguely revisionist but I can't put my finger on how exactly.

@Amished:

AGar, ODDin and Sando are the three people I've never read a game of so I'm looking more at them right now.

What did you mean with this?
What is the reason you're voting for Serial at the moment?

Spouting goody-two-shoes theory = sounding town without doing anything that is pro-town or anti-scum = scummy.

Now that's one hell of a stretch. I think I'm doing enough pro-town / anti-scum things. I've been pointing out scum-tells or town-tells I see about people since the beginning of the game. Seeing that neither you nor anyone else has been accusing me of not scumhunting enough prior to this, I guess I'm not the only one with this opinion. So, I'm "spouting goody two-shoes theories" IN ADDITION to scum hunting, not instead of it. And on its own, I can't see it as a scum-tell.
If you think I haven't been scumhunting enough, explain how.

ODDin, the theoryratio in your arguments is actually higher than you seem to make it to be here. Yeah the game is young, but the non-theory-based arguments I can see on a skim so far are actually relatively few and dislikes are often this-is-anti-town-flavoured.

Looking at the impulse that made AGar go over the threshold and vote Mike I'm leaning at the moment:

vote AGar

[Ojanen]

I don't follow this at all - it's completely incoherent. If clarified, I might be able to respond to it, but right now, it's all garbled.

I'm slightly ESL impaired, apparently this was one of those moments. I'll try again.
Your reason for voting ekiM was this:

Then he comes back and accuses me of playing the newbie card. Now it would be one thing if I said something like "I don't get how this works" and multiple people had called me out on that. Instead, I said "I'm out of my league" and the only other person to mention this was Zorblag. This really perked me up.

Mike accused you of this:

I really feel like ekiM is reaching on Scien here, but I'm not sure. I'm way out of my league in this game Razz

Oh also, since we've left RVS and I have no reason to really suspect Papa Zito right now:

Unvote

Do not like. Don't try and play the newbie card in this game.

I do not understand your thought process. There is no meaningful difference in playing a lack of proficiency card or playing a lack of experience card. I do not understand what is the relevance of multiple people calling or not calling you out. I also felt your deliberate unvote and rhetoric of really thinking someone is scummy but excusing yourself from taking a firm stance was somewhat scummy.

The rest of your reasons for voting Mike were exactly the same ones you felt were not worthy of a vote rather than a fence-sit earlier - reaching on Scien. This isolates the reason for your vote completely to a reaction for Mike suspecting you.
I want you to explain the thought process to me.

WRT AGar---Searching through his games, I don't think the OMGUS vote can be regarded as a scum tell for him. He votes people who are voting him all the time as town---and never has done so, as far as I can find, as scum. I'll take another look at the specific context behind and reasoning for this vote, but I don't think the OMGUS portion of it means anything.

I'l take a look and consider this tomorrow.
---

I meant that I've never played nor read a game of Sando/AGar/ODDin. I've read one or two of the rest of you that I haven't played with; or played with them. I like to get a feel for how active they are, primarily, and look for a super gambit or something. If they're just solid, that's fine too and I like reading the games.

How on earth does this work out with you thinking meta is generally not an effective usage of time and often pretty worthless?

[Ojanen]

Posting before prod. I'm still damn sick, second wave, but will get content up tonight.

[Ojanen]

@Zito: I don't have much against Zorblag at this point. His comments are well thought-out, reads seem plausible. Somehow his perspective feels a little detached and distant, seems more of an observer, which makes him hard to read. Neutral-to-somewhat-town.

I flaked on you guys yesterday, sorry. Full catch up coming now.

[Ojanen]

Ha! Last thing I remember was reading this thread. Next, I was dying in a jungle, when I heard someone was using a hairdryer far away. I open my eyes and it's the fan of my computer next to my head, lights on, morning, back hurting from having slept on an orange and a thermometer.

Sorry if I came across a little brutal in that.

You didn't. No worries.

Edgy voting at start

This looks pretty categorically wrong to me. He switched to Sando and then back to you after he realized Sando hadn't posted on the site for two weeks. I don't think there is anything scummy about that.

How come you changed your mind about this?

In the meantime, I agree that amished's switch seems quite odd and edgy.

I'll tell you how, I believe, the impression was created. You said your vote on SC was serious. However, you didn't explain why - which you should've, for that matter, as "why?" would've obviously been the immediate follow up question, as indeed it was.

You not answering it in advance feels like an attempt at creating confusion and getting a chance to post more and thus appear more active (not only do you say X, but you also answer to "why X?" later - two posts at the price of one.

)
Now, VP immediately assumed that the vote was serious - a pretty fair assumption to make. You say a vote is serious, people assume it means it's backed by a case of some sort.
Part of the problem was that you were V/LA, thus unable to correct the wrong impression more quickly. However, you really should've taken a moment to think before posting, and you'd have realised that when you say a vote is serious, you might as well answer what are the serious reasons behind it (the fact that somebody had asked you whether the vote was serious obviously means he didn't understand why you'd made it).

If pushing for a bandwagon as a reason itself is enclosed at the time I would imagine the assumed stirring would lose some of its point. Seeing the underlined as scummy is shaky, really, postcount upping by one as scum motivation?

@SC: Who would you classify as pro-town thusfar? Just naming 2-3 is fine.

Also, if you have any serious town-tells, you might share those too

@Sando (end of 217): This will be the main reason for my vote at the end of this post (I realize it's a long one). You're essentially asking for people that SC has as pro-town. This is much much worse than asking for scumspects.

Explain why this was a scumpoint against Sando in your opinion please.

unvote; vote Amished

[Ojanen]

@Amished: I did not pick up the idea marker indicative of joke when reading through at first. Perhaps I then failed at contextual reading in light of the previous Serial post, but there was also a bunch of general Serial playstyle talk on that page. Since you think "Only scum benefit from this kind of information" about Sando asking other peoples' townreads, it would still seem a pretty anti-town thing to make a not-that-obvious joke about looking from your perspective.

The following seem like a contradiction. Any clarifications?

However, I rarely use meta (and think it's overall pretty worthless) so don't expect me to really take too much meta discussion. Any smart player can mess with their meta just enough to trick anybody; and I respect all of you as players so I really don't think it'll be an effective usage of time. You can find meta to fit any situation that you want to; so I'd rather take this game as it's own entity.

I meant that I've never played nor read a game of Sando/AGar/ODDin. I've read one or two of the rest of you that I haven't played with; or played with them. I like to get a feel for how active they are, primarily, and look for a super gambit or something. If they're just solid, that's fine too and I like reading the games.

[Ojanen]

Deadline is November 23rd. At 11:59pm est.

That is like in less than 20 hours guys.
AGar's sig says V/LA through 23rd.
VP is V/LA and didn't leave a vote.
Papa Zito and Oddin are not on wagons, everyone else non-V/LA is.
Sando is on L-2. Amished is on L-4.
If we intend to have time for claiming or anything something needs to happen now. Papa Zito and Oddin should pick wagons.
I find Amished scummier, but I will switch to Sando if Amished wagon goes nowhere, and I can't hang around just before the deadline.

[Ojanen]

Zito, you around? A bit more than 3 hours to deadline, both wagons at L-2.

[Ojanen]

You're even writing your own name thus now that I always read it "xxx clear gym xxx".

[Ojanen]

This is getting ridiculously tight timewise. It's 2 hours to the deadline, I don't know how last minute you're hoping the remaining 6 votes on someone will come PZ.
That's it. I'm switching, we need a lynch and I don't have a townread on Sando.

unvote; vote Sando

(L-1)
Here's hoping claiming will still be possible.

[Ojanen]

@ODDin: can you remind me of your main reason to vote for Papa Zito?

@OJ: I believe you asked the question posed to me at the end of 349 (at least I remember writing a response); but I like to get a feel for competency judged from my perspective, what they pick up on so I know to focus on something else if I get a town read on them as they're better in a certain area of scumhunting than I am.

No, I didn't ask this earlier. I was juxtaposing a similar answer to this to your early stance of finding meta pretty useless when Raskol was collecting links. You haven't clarified me anything about this yet.

Here be some reasons that Troll be voting for you [Sando]:
The amount of complaining that people were asking for reads and votes rather than simlpy doing what you said you were doing, sharing opinions. It was an easy thing to make go away and yet you seemed to encourage it which made it a distraction.

Troll, can you exlain why you found the last sentence to be a scum tell?

[Ojanen]

I was supposed to reread tonight but ended up wasting it on trying to get a deadlined essay written and now it's 3AM.
Currently I'm annoyed that Amished was out before we could really interact. There are elements of non-carefulness and taking clear stances that felt originally townish in his play. But then there were later obscure things feeling contradictory (stance on meta, asking townreads as scumtell from Sando but not from ODDin and own unclear joke about it) or vaguely revisionist (whether he originally noticed ODDin's townread comment or not, early vote on SC). He seemed non-chalant but... inaccurate is the word I guess. The townish seeming signals were so, I think, because they would make it easier to spot contradictions, but after unclear thought processes are actually spotted, the townish seeming signals cease to be so and the contradictions stick as scummy over the careless feeling style.

ODDin, if I remember correctly, you didn't find Sando very scummy for basing his vote on Amished on inaccurate statements about the argument about LoSses. Why is drawing a parallel here to PZ wrong, why PZ basing his argument on your vote being random etc. more scummy?

More tomorrow morning.

[Ojanen]

@Ojanen, distractions of the sort that Sando was making with his complaining about people asking for opinions are scummy because they take resources away from more productive lines of inquiry in a case where he could have simply given his opinions. That so much time was spent talking about something so essentially irrelevant almost certainly prevented the town from doing other useful scumhunting.

It also fixated attention firmly to him, in your words

It was an easy thing to make go away and yet you seemed to encourage it which made it a distraction.

My question was born out of not relating to your thought process here at all - drawing attention, specifically negative attention to self on something that "is an easy thing to make go away" as the first point in your reasons to find Sando scummy made me question if this was genuine.

You said yesterday that

From an internal perspective Troll feels that Troll be making reasonable progress for a day one in terms of gaining what Troll will need to make reads on future days so Troll be happy enough with that.

Do you have more results to share at this point from this internal process you were happy enough with?
Your contributions so far today have been vague, with suspecting people for being under the radar and for yet unannounced reasons in Amished/ABR's case.

Reread+more when I'm done working in a couple of hours.

[Ojanen]

Quick question to PZ, with the thing ODDin has a problem with:

4. ODDin - I don't like how ODDin quietly agreed with VP but didn't move his random vote on ekiM to a player that he apparently agreed as scummy. To me he's waiting to see if a bandwagon materializes.

Can you remember: were you referring with this to the early suspicion from ambiguous seriousness (starting iso 4) or the second wave after you said you didn't have a case (iso 11)?

[Ojanen]

2) I find Scien's approach useful.
[... ...]
3) Seeing the above, I don't really like how eKim attacked Scien over it -

feels a bit like trying to keep the game in the RVS, maybe.

PZ seems to be with one leg out of the RVS and the other still in. This is scummy, IMHO

- it gives him the ability to take a certain argument and later say either "it was only part of the RVS and I wasn't serious about it" or "look here, I've been saying that all along", depending on the circumstances.
And I join in to Amished and VP in eagerly awaiting the case on SC.

At this point, eKim. While I don't like PZ's actions in that they might be laying grounds for future scummy actions, it's still obviously a stretch to say that's a serious scum-tell.

So yes, PZ, you pretty much lied - at any rate, you've created a very wrong impression.

Also, you're not really doing much of a job to contribute more - you just laugh of the things said against you, trying to make Scien look foolish (which isn't a valid defence).

-----

It's more serious than that. The way he (PZ) put it, my case on him (PZ) was stronger than my case on eKim, yet I didn't change my vote. That's what he (PZ) called scummy. However, it wasn't so - and this is also a thing I've explicitly said before in the thread, when Amished asked me who I found scummier, and I asnwered eKim, not PZ. (The very beginning of post 200.) So, it's not only that he said my vote was random when it wasn't - he went on to infer that I didn't vote for a case that I should have felt was stronger (the case on PZ) when I explicitly said that I didn't find it stronger already before.

Looking at ODDin's posting history, even though he said at one point ekiM is scummier than PZ, the arguments against PZ are both worded more strongly and come up more than those against ekiM.
Not buying PZ case.

[Ojanen]

Sorry for the quadruple.
@AGar: Can I have a small elaboration on how solid a scumtell you find OMGUS to be?

AGar---would you say it's usual for you to park your vote all Day? Were you that sure that ekiM was scum?

It's less of that and more of I ended up being on V/LA for the 4 days preceding the deadline. I don't intend on repeating that feat this time around.

Hmm.

I'm going to wait until ekiM's replacement before really doing much more, because that's where my first suspicion lies.

Can you elaborate on this thinking? With there being several scum and all.

[Ojanen]

See iso 8.

Sorry, didn't get this. ODDin's (seems irrelevant)? Yours?

[Ojanen]

Oh. As far as I can read that's 9.
It's not that clear from there, I just wanted to know whether you were referring to ODDin agreeing with VP before or after your V/LA (there were 2 waves).

[Ojanen]

It was after. I came back, explained the SC thing, VP posted some drivel, and ODDin sagely nodded his head to it. The End.

Thanks.
ODDin, I'd like you to examine your case based on this information and tell if it changes anything in your perception.
I'll get to Raskol's question and rest in a bit.

[Ojanen]

Ojanen---What are your thoughts on VP Baltar and charlatan?

I don't have a clearly defined read of either currently. Just isoed them.

On VP -
I noticed earlier his Amished stances are a little bit all over.
Early he attacks and votes Amished based on wagon hopping and questions him on a few things.
Later his read has changed to not feeling an Amished case at all.
He responds to Serial's case by finding the thing he himself cast an early attack on Amished categorically wrong as a scumtell, and the other points not voteworthy at that moment.
Near deadline votes Amished over Sando, who he was finding legitimately scummy earlier, due to honest seeming frustration and something in Amished's play not quite sitting right with him.
D2 no continuation but then again the slot was V/LA always.
I'm fine with stance changes in principle. But some of these are hard to read, no transparent impulses or new thought processes visible from outside.
His D1 play is somewhat more defined and townish than what I saw of him as scum. My sample size is 1 though.


On charlatan: I have a slight town gutread from his play but reading back I'm not sure where it came from. Perhaps from non-vagueness D1.
I notice his content was somewhat small/non-positional today before his last post though.

Regardless, I think nightkill speculation is not helpful to us, especially at this point, and I think what Scien is doing is muddying the waters. I have not decided yet if that is scummy or just a bad call, but I've certainly made a note of it.

I found this a little weird due to charlatan just having posted some of his own thinking in response to the nk speculation.
@charlatan:

My top suspects at this point, in no particular order:

charlatan, were these suspicions really exactly on the same level? What made you decide which one to vote?

[Ojanen]

@Ojanen - On it's own, OMGUS is a null-tell in my book. However, with other factors, I feel it can hint at some things.

Not understanding you here actually. I asked because you said earlier you OMGUS all the time and then voted ODDin because

OMGUS. Seemingly empty vote to start off a day. Skewed viewpoints. Just to name a few.
I really need to give this game a serious re-read, but you guys aren't like newbies and actually post mountains. Gonna need to do a re-read tomorrow. Serves me right for signing up for a non-newbie game. :p

Later explained

I pointed out my reasons. I also am garnering a town read in that direction (PZ) right now, so with the massive undercomprehension I had at that time of voting, it was a good decision in my eyes.

You had "undercomprehension", which means you didn't remember why ODDin was voting PZ or what?
What do you mean by the seeming emptiness of the vote?
I'm having a hard time isolating the rest of the reasons here besides the OMGUS that you think is null.

[Ojanen]

I'm trying to figure out Mr. Rampage. Suspicious of Amished slot, and I have a hard time reading ABR.
I notice his 3 suspects are all from the 4 current vote getters.
AGar stuff I see where he's coming from, in fact I've thought along the same lines at times. Relatable, although I don't like it as much when the thoughts are too similar (points to easyish).
ODDin FoS is either gut or a bunch of unclarity with a nod to nk speculation.

In fact, almost his entire posting record pertains or is addressed to Sando or Serial. Check his postin in iso. Both dead now. So scary.

This is inaccurate on a skim.

ABR, what do you think about Papa Zito? VP Baltar?

[Ojanen]

The perceived emptiness was pointing at the fact that I felt ODDin's case to be bullshit and a terrible excuse to vote at PZ.

Did you always feel this way? Was there a reason you didn't mention it D1 when they started attacking each other?

[Ojanen]

Day 2 starts now.
Deadline is in 12 days.

Holy crap! I just checked and this is in a couple of days.

@mod

: we lost days due to most people being away for Thanksgiving, is there any chance of a small extension?

Past midnight, content coming asap, either now or in the morning.

[Ojanen]

I had a tentative townread on Raskol earlier, although he's seemed uninterested today. VP, what was the game with him and Serial, Commie mafia?

--- ---

It was after. I came back, explained the SC thing, VP posted some drivel, and ODDin sagely nodded his head to it. The End.

Thanks.
ODDin, I'd like you to examine your case based on this information and tell if it changes anything in your perception.

ODDin, I would have really wanted you to do this.
Basically, I thought your case was at best miscommunication born out of the fact you assumed Papa Zito was referring to the first wave of you suspecting him early, at worst legitimately scummy. I wanted to observe you more based on your potential reevaaluation, but you ignored my request.

When this is pointed out, he doesn't say anything on the subject and essentially disregards the issue.

Looking at some hypocracy here on an identical topic, although I did spoonfeed somewhat less obviously.

Why ODDin thought the Papa Zito vote was based on false accusations etc.

1) My vote on eKim wasn't random. I voted for him because I felt he was trying to keep the game in the RVS and silence Scien's arguments against AGar. I'm not saying it's a strong argument, but it sure isn't "ooh his name has 4 letters so he must be scum" random.

The amount of accusation ODDin used in the second wave of his Papa Zito suspicion (

before

Papa voted/accused him)

So yes, PZ, you pretty much lied - at any rate, you've created a very wrong impression. Also, you're not really doing much of a job to contribute more - you just laugh of the things said against you, trying to make Scien look foolish (which isn't a valid defence).

I feel the whole deal about Zito getting facts wrong was there to some extent only if ODDin thought Zito was talking about the early suspicions, not the second wave, and I find the unwillingness to comment scummy.

I don't often like the grandmother-waving-finger theory tone in ODDin's posts - for example from D1, the reasoning apart from alleged misrepping from Zito to his vote (acknowledged though by him as not a major part of it):

I'll tell you how, I believe, the impression was created. You said your vote on SC was serious. However, you didn't explain why - which you should've, for that matter, as "why?" would've obviously been the immediate follow up question, as indeed it was.

You not answering it in advance feels like an attempt at creating confusion and getting a chance to post more and thus appear more active (not only do you say X, but you also answer to "why X?" later - two posts at the price of one.)

Now, VP immediately assumed that the vote was serious - a pretty fair assumption to make. You say a vote is serious, people assume it means it's backed by a case of some sort.
Part of the problem was that you were V/LA, thus unable to correct the wrong impression more quickly. However, you really should've taken a moment to think before posting, and you'd have realised that when you say a vote is serious, you might as well answer what are the serious reasons behind it (the fact that somebody had asked you whether the vote was serious obviously means he didn't understand why you'd made it).

If pushing for a bandwagon as a reason itself is enclosed at the time I would imagine the assumed stirring would lose some of its point. Seeing the underlined as scummy is shaky, really, postcount upping by one as scum motivation?

The answer was more theory and no scum motivation, here's the link.

In isoing ODDin I earlier came up with this tone as a recurring thing.

I've got a bunch of other stuff with other people I wanna address but they will come in bits today due to life.

vote ODDin

[Ojanen]

Sorry, was hitting timeouts, thus double post.

@mod: can you please remove the previous post?

[Ojanen]

@VP: I remember I had judged aloud what Raskol quotes here as a slight towntell because it seemed honest instead of checked, but he refused the townlean by saying it was inaccurate. I remember getting some further honest vibes from that.
Isoing him again, there's a bunch of meh theory and he does get very uninvolved starting from the latter stages of D1 with the Sando vote, but he just doesn't read as that scummy in my gut, more like too serious about optimal play + losing interest.
That being said, Raskol not at least responding in some way to the case against him on his way out is annoying.
I thought your meta point about Raskol supposedly knowing SC's style was potentially good. I checked out Commie mafia a bit - Serial replaced in around page 10 and had started to change his playstyle already then to townhunting. Otoh he was also argumenting a scum read from the bat there on D1.

This is inaccurate on a skim.

No, it's pretty accurate. In iso, post 18, post 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 and 9 all mention Sando / Serial in some way. You can't deny he had a special focus on them.

Since one was the main wagon and the other active and discussed quite a lot by the town as a whole this seems a bit of a red herring, many of those listed Zorblag posts talked about several things and people besides the Aussie corpses.

[Ojanen]

Ugh, traveling hassle access trouble, I'll be here tonight if I don't get stranded in Copenhagen or full force tomorrow if I do

[Ojanen]

To be frank, it still doesn't make sense to me that PZ meant the second wave, but I'll take his word on it.

In which make it doesn't make sense to you and why did you decide to unvote despite of that?

And as promised
vote: crypto

Can you expand on what you meant by the "as promised" here?

[Ojanen]

EBWOP
-"In which way doesn't it make sense" etc
-Strike the second question, it's a reading fail from me.
(Yeah, 4AM posting seems to be a bad idea.)

[Ojanen]

I'm probably going to be lynched tomorrow, I guess that's not going to change. That's fine. I haven't played the best game, and it's a pretty fair reasoning to lynch me.

Not really able read this as a strong alignment tell either way in itself but if you look at this

3. There should probably be way more pressure on me since I have not really contributed as much as I would personally have liked to in this game. It actually pisses me off that no one has come after me for anything yet, because I gain reads that way.

Where's the guy who supposedly strives under pressure, where's the reads and reactions t your wagon?
There's a dissonance here to him currently flapping around somewhat phlegmatically, hate the defeatism.
If he's scum, he's taking it too peacefully, I would guess some bussing to have taken effect already in that case.
If you're town, fight dammit, get content out.

Just take time to make it to the deadline before hammering so a gameplan can be figured out for tomorrow.

Especially if you want this, take the passive language out please.

[Ojanen]

This was the exception. It should be noted that we had to rush a wagon at the deadline in order to avoid a no-lynch, and that most townies were so lazy and the town performance overall was so lackluster that the mafia could've gotten away with murder (and they did). [shrug] It is what it is.

crypto, how would you compare that wagon to the Sando wagon in terms of deadline rush?

Did you read the complete game before deciding to concentrate on the off-wagon voters btw?

[Ojanen]

570 was provoked btw by the fact that I was expecting severely more as reactions and conclusions when the initial reactions to the votes were of this type

LOL.

That is all for now.

[Ojanen]

PapaZ was not a legitimate lynch candidate when I was going on my V/LA at the end of day 1. It was going to be Sando or Amished. No lynch should never be an option on Day 1 and I like to do what I can to make sure that isn't going to happen. As I've already explained, I started to have misgivings about lynching Sando after my long dispute with him and his frustration began to feel more honest, so I put my vote on Amished, who I felt more confident about.

Theory smoke? And yes I agree with the theory smoke, but my confusion is more than what you are suggesting with the theory talk. If you have time to come change it before deadline, why not leave it where your suspicions lie. You said you would be back by the time deadline approached. However, you decided that your strongest suspect is not good enough anymore and subscribe to an end of day either/or? I see this as a bit funny and worth looking at. Why am I wrong?

I don't understand what "theory smoke" you are referring to. No lynches on Day 1 are bad...that's not theory, that's common sense. That's why you're wrong.

VP, Scien's referencing the fact that you unvoted PZ before going V/LA 4 days before DL while saying you'll probably vote Sando when you drop in closer to it. I think you remember wrong the vote situation though, it was Sando 4 and four others, including Zito, at 2 votes, Amished wagon wasn't born yet really. (for the record don't really find this scummy regards to VP but you two seem to be talking past each other on this point)

Why do you think crypto is a noob? His join date is less than a month away from Zito's, Seral's and mine for instance, and he's played plenty.

[Ojanen]

I'm vanilla.
Sorry for holding you up! (In Japan, traveling, forgot laptop adaptor, jetlag.)
Pressed for time now, but have substantial access later tonight to post.

[Ojanen]

Dammit with the access. Own laptop doesn't want to cooperate.
Seems like I should not make promises but if it's in my power, tonight will be the night.

Looking at charlatan's case superficially, finding PZ's Sando hammer scummy seems plain wrong, it ignores the deadline context. Charlatan, do you really find hammering suspicious in that context? Does that have something to do with your failure to hammer on time D2?

[Ojanen]

Troll, I was vanilla in the aborted game too.

Reading now, will trade some sleep for finally posting.

[Ojanen]

Thanks, I hate the way my current schedule+access is making me deal with my mafia games.

Papa Zito, part of your thought process about this game being mountaineous was that the limited reveal is a designed feature in order to cover this up. With the aborted version also having limited reveal and you claiming an item there how you did come to this as first on the list of assumptions?

As a sidenote, upon checking the late parts of isos, I'm thinking Sando and AGar were reasonably likely vanilla. Neither claimed from what I could see, both were predictably deadline lynched, and had these mindsets on the day of the deadline:

I'm fairly bemused by my seemingly inevitable lynch, but no, I'm not a happy chappy about what seems like a fairly inevitable lynch.

I'm probably going to be lynched tomorrow, I guess that's not going to change. That's fine. I haven't played the best game, and it's a pretty fair reasoning to lynch me.

Those+no claim are rather vanillaish mindsets to me.
That would (pretty likely) leave Serial and ODDin as possible powerroles besides charlatan.
9-3 mountaineous is not balanced.
2 scum, 9 vanilla, tracker fakeclaim from someone higher than average on people's townradars to potentially trade 1-1, and get partner to endgame after that? Seems not likely, unnecessary risk and casting away of some advantage (charlatan's apparent towncred). Also, not mylo today then.
Seems likely that if charlatan is lying there must have been power among Serial and ODDin (hmm, pretty lame though, I guess they could overlap to an extent as prs, it's only conditional in one direction).

Let me iso some more for non-setup scumhunting.

[Ojanen]

Aaarghdozedoff. Braindead. I don't think I have particularly fresh perspective to offer.

Neither PZ or charlatan have particularly been on my radar, I've had light town on charlatan, I deemed ODDin's PZ case crap and thus in effect defended PZ.
Surprisingly similar voting patterns, on both lynch wagons, PZ was late reluctant hammerer of Sando's while charlatan was AGar's.
PZ's style is very hard to read.
AGar vote stance shift is stinky though.
If PZ is scum his lynch won't lose him the game. If town, presumably will. His failure to try to persuade others seems somewhat more likely to come from scum.

I find charlatan's actions on D3 fairly consistent to the tracker claim. More open, readable feel, although his posts are a little light on stances early D2. PZ target choice is slightly questionable.

Feel of slots+setup=leaning PZ scum atm.

I checked Serial and ODDin out a little for the heck of it, nothing tangible.

(They would have had both a connection as nightkills to PZ, but wifom [PZ would also be good fakeclaim target based on that].)

Access situation update:

I am flying tomorrow to Mongolia until December 28th. I have been told I have internet access in the hotels. I should be able to have enough free time to be able to keep up in the nights. Since traveling and my workload can be unpredictable as I've noticed, I'll post this as a notice. If nothing is heard from me until Sunday it means Ulan Bator has let me down and replacement is at mod's discretion. Access really should work out though.

---
[lonely spam]
Holy crap!
I that must have been a mild earthquake right now with the house shaking very tangibly!
[/lonely spam]

[Ojanen]

Greetings from Mongolia. Found internet, caught up and am confident in

vote Papa Zito

[Ojanen]

since I forgot the colon,

unvote; vote: Papa Zito

[Ojanen]

BTW Ojanen, if I'm ever in a game with you and Serial and Serial dies N1, totally policy lynching you the next day

Yeah, ironical I have killed him twice on N1 considering he's one of my favorite players.
But it wasn't my idea!
*guiltily points at Amished in quicktopic*

I wish to apologize for my lack of access this game day, and also when I was sick. I dislike heavily ending up on limited access as scum even more than as town, because it's not something that town can blame me on but still often ends up slightly favoring me.

Good work from charlatan and Albert, and also Amished. I've never felt as bad about a mafia game as I ended up feeling after I pointlessly and almost lynch-triggeringly distanced from an active and not-that-suspected scumbuddy on D1.