Mini 884 - Last Man Standing (Over)

[Ectomancer]

I confirm that I am confirming with this response.

[Ectomancer]

My favorite classic western is Rio Bravo. Love John Wayne. Modern western is tough. Val Kilmer put in a great performance in Tombstone, Sharon Stone made the best female western in Quick and the Dead since Jane Fonda in Kat Ballou, and I like the Young Guns movies, but I think Silverado edges those movies out for all around cast and story.
Clint Eastwood gets the top nod overall for his entire body of work.

That's just off the top of my head, though I also recall They call me Trinity was awesome!

[Ectomancer]

I would prefer to vote you over your favorite choices of Western. it is far more interesting than an RVS. Let's hear it! At least list classic western and modern western. Somewhere around 1975-80 is where I think that line is.

[Ectomancer]

Never even heard of Lone Star, I'll have to look around for it. I was going to vote your lack of enthusiasm for the genre Vi, but anyone who can pull out Chicken Boo deserves to stick around for a bit

vote Benmage

for lack of avatar. I usually look at pictures way before I look at the name.

[Ectomancer]

Vote: Ectomancer

QUIT TRYING TO DIRECT THE TOWN

Hey! A serious vote! Yay!

Because I don't feel like being serious right now.

Why do you intend you interrogate me so thoroughly?

Or not a serious vote....errmm ok? "Interrogate so thoroughly?" I wouldn't call one question an interrogation.

Actually, Id expect you to react to my vote as you have everyone else's, so, yes. That was what I was expecting.

Considering everyone else's Votes were very clearly RVS, I find this very interesting. I asked you which it was due to the ambiguity of it. With you getting defensive and dodging for a third time, I'm getting a very bad feeling about you.

UnVote/Vote:Nm8

Why wasn't my vote clearly RVS/not RVS?

Because I wasn't clearly directing the town, it could have been sarcasm or some inside joke of yours. Who knows? You then confound the point by saying "Because I don't feel like being serious right now."
Oh ok, so that was not serious then?

The beginning of these games is always so freaking stupid and boring because nobody knows who to vote for and everybody tries to make mountains out of molehills just so that they can feel good about themselves and their pointless votes. How about we just bypass all of the bullshit and lynch the person who IS scum? *hic

vote: PorkchopExpress

If you really wanted to lynch scum, then you'd vote who I'm voting. Also, any reason why you always put "*hic" at the end of every post you make?

Wait, vote with you to lynch scum. Ok, so it was a serious vote.

If you werent suspicious to whether my reasons for voting Echo were legit, then why would you ask if they were in the first place?

Why do you find my reaction more scummy than Ecto's? What scum motive do I have not to answer your question?

How about the fact that you are being dodgy as hell over a simple question? You made a vote, was it a serious one, yes or no, its not a complicated bit of math here. If you have a serious vote, then the last thing you should be doing is jerking somebody else's chain over whether you meant the vote or not.
There does not have to be an assignable scum 'motive' for your reaction. Instead it illustrates a mindset of a player who does not wish to divulge any information or be held to a specific opinion. By asking whether you were serious or not, d3x prevented you from later saying "What serious vote on Ecto? We were still in RVS stage OMFG you over-reactor!"

unvote; vote Nachomamma8

I don't care that you voted me. I care that you are trying to be as slippery as possible before there is even any possible cause to avoid directly answering a question, especially one as simple as whether you cast a serious vote.

[Ectomancer]

@Vi - We've wrangled over methods to begin a game before. You can either prepare yourself for doing it again, or you can reserve that conversation for a future MD discussion. As you pointed out when you posted first, there was no minor bits of conversation to be twisted into something useful. An RVS is nothing more than a weak attempt at beginning a conversation and ours wasn't doing that any better than it ever does. Just because you couldn't come up with anything offhand to generate post counts doesn't mean nobody else can. I don't have to participate in a zombie ritual that is practiced by those who also protest that they hate it.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer - There's trying to end the RVS, and then there's completely sidetracking the discussion. Unless there's something you can tell me about how knowing everyone's favorite Westerns can help your reads on people, of course. Have you used similar methods to begin games before? (I don't recall it in any of the games we've played together)

I've used a number of methods to begin games, I don't recall all of them. For direct inspiration, see my grilling of darkstrike in my last game. He claimed to like to start games this way.

viewtopic.php?t=12561&start=0

As for what can be derived from questions, it generates the type of conversational hooks that you lamented were missing from the game when you first posted. I also cast serious doubt as to whether these types of questions from your own games are any more effective:

viewtopic.php?t=12195

If I could have everyone's attention, please. I would like for everyone to fill out a quick survey for future reference.

1. How many games have you played to completion on this site?
2. Do you play Mafia on other sites? If so, what is different about those sites vs. here?
3. Do you consider yourself an experienced player?
4. Which other players in this game have you played with in the last six months?
5. Do you prefer to be Town, scum, or third party? Why?

6. Who is your favorite fictional character, and why?

7. How many scum do you think are in this game?
8. Why are you filling this survey out?
9. Do you think this survey will be useful in finding scum?
10. Am I more likely to be Town or scum in creating this survey?
11. Is English your first language?

Yes, I bolded #6. Don't be hypocritical. My questions are way more interesting and accomplish the exact same thing.

[Ectomancer]

First, I didn't ask you if your vote was serious. I interpreted your statements as best as they could be deciphered as you stated them. Second, a specific scum motive doesn't have to be cited when it can be demonstrated that your mindset itself can be attributed to scum. I like how you brought out one portion of a statement to criticize and cut out the portion that tells you why you are scum.

And if an RVS vote is made and the reasons are legit, then is it still an RVS vote?

And if a bear shits in the woods with no one around does it still smell? Seriously, what kind of asinine wordplay game are you going on about that matters one whit? What matters, and what you steadfastly refuse to just simply state, was whether you had serious intentions behind your vote when you made it. You attempted to be coy about it, and got pressured beyond your expectations. Once caught up in act of being elusive as possible, you then tried to turn the situation around by acting as though you have "caught" d3x out in some scummy motivation with your philosophical trap of "And if an RVS vote is made and the reasons are legit, then is it still an RVS vote? "

Now, perhaps now you can go about explaining yourself

from the beginning

and show us the town motivation behind your actions. The scum part is covered.

[Ectomancer]

You're continuing your trend of being a bullshit artist with your pants down. Scum are just as capable of making snarky comments as town. Not impressed with your obnoxious insistence on refusing to commit to a position, and turning it into your schtick doesn't make you town either.

I'll be pleased to ride this wagon to a lynch. Today.

[Ectomancer]

My position is stated clearly and succintly Nacho. You have yet to state yours, and that is the entire problem. Yes, I do intend to bypass your attempt at pages of quote rebuttal pyramids to render the town glassy eyed over the topic. Yes I intend to ignore your questions. I have no intentions of playing that particular scum game. You have no right to them through your refusal to answer those put to you. You can either get to explaining your every move from post 1 forward, and you can make absolute certain we know what your position is at every point, or you can expect to see my vote on you till lynch.

[Ectomancer]

and you didn't stop to think that any of it might be important? You clearly see me trying to squeeze a straight answer from him, you might go "Hey Nacho, just answer the stupid question", or you might say, I see where he's coming from, I don't see that he's being scummy. Hell, if you were just watching closely to see what would come of it, I could accept that, but you're just skimming with disinterest? For Nacho's benefit, the scum motive in this case would be a general sitting back and waiting until he could see which town wagon had the best momentum to join. Until then, no need to really pay much attention or do more than skim...

[Ectomancer]

Let's wait before everyone else to join the party, shall we? Porkchop, Ben, Amished, ConfidAnon, pwnz, don... Explain a stance on the argument Ecto and I just had, and take a firm stance, and give (1) reason why. "I agree with so-and-so" is not a good answer. Also, please answer all questions asked of you. Thank you, and have a nice day.

Can I take the stance that you are both retarded and I hate you both? That's how I feel. *hic

Sure, take that stance. I expect 2 paragraphs, one for each of us, consisting of at least 5 sentences in each explaining why we are retarded. We already know why you hate.

[Ectomancer]

Haha Donkitty has claws

There is no hypocrisy in asking you to comment on the leading wagon that has taken up half the games posting, as opposed to not commenting on a comment you made without even a vote. I'm supposed to take you seriously? You were the one posting tl;dr pal. Why do you care about ConfidAnon not answering a question, and not about Nacho actively refusing to answer? Don't need to fling mud where mud already exists?

[Ectomancer]

Yes I intend to ignore your questions. I have no intentions of playing that particular scum game.

I'll happily lynch you for ignoring his legitimate questions about your case.

Bring your vote on. I'll happily hit you right back for your hypocritical refusal to do the same for Nacho when

he has been doing it the entire game

. Those questions are designed to do nothing but argue and create quote pyramids to drown the town in. I can point to any recent post about the matter to illustrate that most of the town is bored with the matter. Nacho at least recognized the truth of that and called for a truce for town to weigh in, while you seem to prefer to see quote pyramids?

Why does ConfidAnon deserve the vote more than pwnz? Let me show you how you should have done it:

ConfidAnon, what exactly do you mean by "Nacho is obviously scummy?"

Substance pwnz, today.

unvote, vote pwnz

[Ectomancer]

pwnz, how experienced would you say you are at mafia? When was your last game prior to this one?

I'm also baffled by that 2004 join date when combined with the play...

[Ectomancer]

Why does ConfidAnon deserve the vote more than pwnz? Let me show you how you should have done it:

ConfidAnon, what exactly do you mean by "Nacho is obviously scummy?"

Substance pwnz, today.

unvote, vote pwnz

I thought you wanted to ride nacho's wagon to a lynch. Why the sudden change of heart?

Responses indicate a lack of interest and beating the same dead horse won't generate new useful content. Nor is anything further I do along those lines likely to alter his starting objectionable behavior. I also liked post 98 where he chose to take the opportunity to force others into the discussion rather than focus on a refusal to volley questions back and forth as VP Baltar did. All of that calls for searching for other likely suspects.

[Ectomancer]

Let's wait before everyone else to join the party, shall we? Porkchop, Ben, Amished, ConfidAnon, pwnz, don... Explain a stance on the argument Ecto and I just had, and take a firm stance, and give (1) reason why. "I agree with so-and-so" is not a good answer. Also, please answer all questions asked of you. Thank you, and have a nice day.

Actually, I am going to revoke my previous statement on this one now that the focus has shifted from you two. I really can't understand why you, Ectomancer, would go so far as to state that you were going to ride Nachomamma8's bandwagon all the way until lynch and then flip your vote over to me on the next page because you didn't think that I offered you any valuable information on the subject. (pro-tip: I was sandbagging) *hic

It makes it even more hard for me to understand why you flipped your vote over to me when you gave Nachomamma8 such a clear-cut list of things that you needed to see accomplished before you made any further moves: *hic

My position is stated clearly and succintly Nacho. You have yet to state yours, and that is the entire problem. Yes, I do intend to bypass your attempt at pages of quote rebuttal pyramids to render the town glassy eyed over the topic. Yes I intend to ignore your questions. I have no intentions of playing that particular scum game. You have no right to them through your refusal to answer those put to you. You can either get to explaining your every move from post 1 forward, and you can make absolute certain we know what your position is at every point, or you can expect to see my vote on you till lynch.

Now, I realize that my vote on you is no longer going to be as strong of a vote since you already have placed one on me, but your massive flip-flop there just rubs me wrong, especially since it was made with absolutely no correspondence from Nachomamma8 in between. You could have just as easily called me out on my lack of insight and told me that it was unacceptable, but instead you moved your vote off of someone that you were absolutely sure was scum, so sure that you were going to ride it out until lynch. I don't buy it. *hic

unvote; vote Ectomancer

This was all already asked and answered. Update your attacks if you don't mind.

Why does ConfidAnon deserve the vote more than pwnz? Let me show you how you should have done it:

ConfidAnon, what exactly do you mean by "Nacho is obviously scummy?"

Substance pwnz, today.

unvote, vote pwnz

I thought you wanted to ride nacho's wagon to a lynch. Why the sudden change of heart?

Responses indicate a lack of interest and beating the same dead horse won't generate new useful content. Nor is anything further I do along those lines likely to alter his starting objectionable behavior. I also liked post 98 where he chose to take the opportunity to force others into the discussion rather than focus on a refusal to volley questions back and forth as VP Baltar did. All of that calls for searching for other likely suspects.

[Ectomancer]

Yeah, I mean, you followed the nacho wagon without even really understanding it and now you're far to eager to jump on ConfidAnon before he has even had a chance to explain himself. If you have nothing original to add to it, I don't see any real reason for you to be in a clamor to join the wagon, especially when your previous post said that you had JUST read him in iso and didn't see any reason to be voting him.

I like the barking up this tree.

I'll give you a regional radar of the game later when I have some time to devote to a right up. Haven't been feeling or sleeping well. I can give you a pre-liminary excerpt though. "Vi appears to be the same Vi, doing what he does. Seems to have slightly antagonistic undertones, but that is about normal friction."

[Ectomancer]

Do you have any solid insight you would like to contribute to the conversation?

I like VP and Amished so far, although more posting from the latter would be great. Porkchop could go in here too. Nacho has gone MIA since the pressure left him, I don't like that. As for the rest, I'm still in a sorting process.

Ecto, what do you think of the confid wagon now with how both Don and Benmage hopped on?

I liked what VP had to say to Ben.
As for ConfidAnon, he looked to me like he is having the classic "scummy vs anti-town" issue with his statement. People don't know when to use them properly. For instance, 'X is scummy' should get a vote after it, while 'X is anti-town' shouldn't necessarily because they do mean different things.

[Ectomancer]

Your read on don_johnson?

Lazy and touchy about it

He crept his way up to his vote on Confid. To be honest, his attack was so weak, I really

didn't

think much of it, especially not enough to be accused of "ignoring" it. Could be accused of 'feeling out a wagon' before committing, but he would point to that as saying that he did in fact make a big deal out of it (even though it was really more of a

hissy fit

blowup than an attempt to build a case on Con)
So, was he scummy for putting his vote on after 2 more votes? As a townie with convictions he follows them and votes, as a scummy without them, he follows his preaching and votes.
I think his grilling of Confid shows preferential scumhunting as his reasoning seems to me to be the same as I was grilling Nacho. However, in that imaginary conversation, it could be pointed out that just as he focused on the player who voted for him, so did I do the same.
To that, I could only say, touche'

[Ectomancer]

175 wasn't a laundry list of actions by Don. It was speculation on possible motives for those actions which comes to exactly what I posted. If you are looking for a black or white 'read' on him to suit you, that's not coming. If you insist on a plain statement, that would be "Who knows?", but seriously, I don't think you needed it restated any differently than 175.

[Ectomancer]

I didn't even know that there was a dichotomy between Vi and Amished, i.e. there's a winner and a loser and one is scum. That seems to be what you're implying with "the choice".

I noticed this phrasing as well and thought it a bit presumptuous.

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: To further clarify my point on d3x: obviously no two people read the game the exact same way. In the way that I read the game, d3x's posting very strongly suggests third party. He could be scum; but either way, he's somebody that I feel should have some heat put on him sooner rather than later. Unfortunately for me, I only have one vote so I can't put the amount of pressure that I like on a person that I'm seriously questioning; and there's two other people that I want to deal with before him at this point.

I don't get this. If d3x is scummy to you why do you assume 3rd party? I found him pretty scummy at the start of the game, but his post before going on v/la was pretty decent. What is the difference for you between 3rd party actions to scum actions?

There could be something under this rock. Amished, explain why there is a good reason to assume 3rd party.
From my standpoint, if you are town, then you are looking for scum in general. Im not certain how you could differentiate between the tow on day 1, so looking for your explanation. The bad side is that while town is looking for scum in general, scum would be looking for 3rd party if they exist, and your post can be interpreted as scum fishing for 3rd parties.

[Ectomancer]

Unvote: Sotty7
Vote: Ectomancer

(L-5)

Less agreeing with what other people have been saying, more taking stances.

[Ectomancer]

I was going to put a preamble up there but got all excited an hit the post button. Anyhoo, my apologies but work has been slaughtering me. It's primarily because of all this hysteria about a chick who can't decide if she'd rather screw a corpse or a dog. The above were some notes I took as I reread the whole game (the joys of falling behind) and I'll be more active in the next week thanks to five days off. Winner. Also, I'd like to say: After playing in a couple of games together, I am just learning that VP is a woman. This does not bode well for my attention to detail.

Back on game:

There could be something under this rock. Amished, explain why there is a good reason to assume 3rd party.
From my standpoint, if you are town, then you are looking for scum in general. Im not certain how you could differentiate between the tow on day 1, so looking for your explanation. The bad side is that while town is looking for scum in general, scum would be looking for 3rd party if they exist, and your post can be interpreted as scum fishing for 3rd parties.

You've lost me here. Why would scum be expecting a 3rd party?

Scum know their numbers and roles. If they feel light in numbers or roles, it could indicate a 3rd party and hence, they would go looking. So seeing someone looking for a 3rd party without reason, ie a 2nd night kill or other obvious factor, is cause to wonder, no?

Amished do I have it right that you think d3x could be 3rd party because you believe he is both scummy and scumhunting?

[Ectomancer]

ebwop: i am not sure what is more annoying: giant fucking quote walls or players who repeatedly link to other posts.

I hate the links. Put the relevant material in the post and if I have to scroll past it, so be it. The only time links are ok is when they reference material outside the game.

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto: Yes, he's both scummy and looking for scum. His heightened sense of self preservation is a large part of the former (and also what makes me place him in 3rd party rather than mafia group scum).

Ok, thanks for the 2nd sentence. I wasn't sure if I was specific in what I wanted from you. I can buy "heightened sense of self preservation" as a valid reference for the idea.

In this case, my suggestion is we make use of the scumhunting portion and put a bookmark on the scummy portion. Should he turn up as 3rd party, it will help us in the long run, but in the short run we would hurt the scum vs everyone else balance.

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto: If he's 3rd party, his scumhunting isn't any better than the rest of ours. Do you think he'll have special knowledge?

Of course not, but if he's 3rd party you would know two things. First, his scumhunting is sincere and second, he counts against a scum win. You don't take them out on day 1 unless you believe he belongs to a multiple scum 3rd party, and your idea that he is especially self-preserving would argue against itself.

[Ectomancer]

One of Amished and Ectomancer is virtually guaranteed to be scum for the third party speculation. Since VP Baltar just called out Amished and since Ectomancer has done even less for scumhunting, please do me a flavor and kill Ectomancer.

If scum have guns in this game - and because of the wounded status that bad shots give, they probably do - there is no reason whatsoever to let d_j live.

How could you have a gun and

not

wonder about a 3rd party? Why do you think I was trying to carefully determine Amished's causation? I wanted to know if his speculation was rooted from the same source as my own. (having a gun separate from the rest of my pm). This is the Wild West and themed and there are a number of factions that could be a part of the game and all with their own agendas. For a good example, watch Fist Full of Dollars.

A Man with No Name (Clint Eastwood), arrives at a little Mexican border town named San Miguel. He is quickly introduced to the feud between two families vying to gain control the town: the Rojo brothers, consisting of Don Miguel (the eldest and nominally in charge), Esteban (Sieghardt Rupp) (the most headstrong) and Ramón (the most capable and intelligent, played by Gian Maria Volontè, who would reappear in For a Few Dollars More as the psychopathic El Indio), and the family of so-called "town sheriff" John Baxter (Wolfgang Lukschy).

The Stranger quickly spies an opportunity to make a "fistful of dollars" and decides to play both families against each other.

Why do you think I

wouldn't

vote Amished for clearly being scum looking for a 3rd party unless I thought there was a secondary non-scum motivation for speculating? (P.S. - his answer didn't dispell that notion, but my own doubt has held me)

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer: Everyone has a gun. I think that has been made rather apparent by now.

Apparent by now being the operable phrase. Prior to don shooting you, it was apparent only that I had one.

Even so, are you claiming game-related knowledge about "another faction"? The idea is that we kill all nonTown. This is standard in every Mafia game.

I'm claiming game-related speculation on other factions in the game based upon flavor and the fact that I had a gun, but not other information in my PM normally related to having a gun. There was quite a number of other speculations that went through my head, including that everyone might have a gun. but let's address a pertinent issue here.
You sir, are stretching a few truths in this matter, whatever your alignment. Firstly, there has been no "snowballing" accusations against d3x in his absence. What there has been is a discussion over what we should do even if Amished's speculations were correct. Secondly, there has been a discussion over what the source of Amished's speculations were. Neither of these added to the accusations, and in the case of the former, actually was a statement on my part that it wasn't something to pursue today anyhow. In the case of the latter, it was a probing into

Amished's

motivations, and not d3x, so once again you are completely wrong in your stated interpretation of the recent posts creating a "snowball" of accusation against d3x

Last, Amished's speculation is based on things that d3x hasn't had a chance to respond to for ~7 pages, and the accusations have only snowballed over time. (Which reminds me, his V/LA should be up today.) Even if the third party has "inside information", that player has no ulterior motive in revealing it when we're supposed to kill him anyway. Scum is scum.

Once again, wrong as I have just illustrated. There has been no snowball of accusations. 2nd, if you have absolute information that a player is 3rd party,

maybe

we could have a nice long argument over whether you lynch them on day 1. I say no. But in this case, where Amished is just speculating? Definitely hell no. But in the meantime, you figure out just where Amished got the idea of a 3rd party. Because he's scum and knows the numbers? Or he has a gun too and thought to look out for one? Prior to Don shooting, I didnt have that answer. I don't really now, though I suspect you are right and everyone does have one.

BTW unlike Don's assessment, you always look like scum who might be town to me, not the other way around.

[Ectomancer]

not really, but if you see two plainclothes men BLATANTLY breaking into a house during the daytime in full view of the entire neighborhood, would it be more probable to assume that they are burgulars, or would it be just as, if not moreso, possible that they are undercover cops working a case?

I see what you are saying. *hic

I do too, but WIFOM floweth over. Same situation even if Vi shows up as scum. Gambits work because people don't think they would ever be attempted.

[Ectomancer]

I'm supposed to give a radar overview at some point, but my morning was spent with a blocked sewage line

The current issue is that we have plenty of time or no time at all. By that I mean that deadline is of no concern, but Vi expires in less than 24 hours. I'd say that primarily by inertia we wont have a lynch utilizing Vi's vote unless a groundswell for either Benmage or Don arises in the next 12 hours. I don't see cause for either to be settled in that time frame.

[Ectomancer]

VP Baltar's last two votes have been for astonishingly weak reasons, especially considering he was the third on both the ConfidAnon and Benmage wagons. Still leaning toward scum.

I think it makes sense that we don't shoot VP, better to get a lynch and keep the extra killings to a minimum, but do I take this as an endorsement to take this to lynch?

[Ectomancer]

I disagree about the extra killing though. It occurs to me that if we don't take the game to Night and there aren't many power roles, we'll be better off democratically choosing who to shoot.

I didn't like this much when you wrote it Vi. We don't know the number of power roles and cant exactly take a poll. I had planned to wait until your alignment flip to see where your allegiance lies to evaluate the earnestness of the idea, but if you've been healed, I'd like you to re-evaluate this and either elaborate on why it would work for us, or snuff it as not useful.

Confid - seeing as you seem to be a healer and people only have 48 hours before they die,

could you not go AWOL again?

[/b]

[Ectomancer]

*yawn*

unvote, vote ectomancer

*sips beer*

While I appreciate the vote, I think we have a nightless suggestion on the table. Certainly if we chose to follow that path, it will take more consideration, deliberation, compromise and planning in a coordinated manner than will a typical lynch as we will need to get everyone onboard as opposed to a simple majority.
I think that it very likely would be just a well orchestrated attempt at gaming the mod, but in the thought process, we may come up with methods that actually could prove fruitful later.

[Ectomancer]

You really should have just been allowed to die.

[Ectomancer]

Thanksgiving. I'll be gone. Happy Turkey Day!~

[Ectomancer]

Luckily, we have another candidate; and I don't disagree with anything that Vi has said against Ecto.

Unvote
Vote: Ectomancer

That's because he hasn't said anything against me. I guess you could count his 3rd party issue, except that I already pointed out where he completely stretched the truth of the matter, if not being a straight out liar. Here's the breakdown of exactly how close Vi came to a bald faced lie.

Ectomancer: Everyone has a gun. I think that has been made rather apparent by now.

Apparent by now being the operable phrase. Prior to don shooting you, it was apparent only that I had one.

Even so, are you claiming game-related knowledge about "another faction"? The idea is that we kill all nonTown. This is standard in every Mafia game.

I'm claiming game-related speculation on other factions in the game based upon flavor and the fact that I had a gun, but not other information in my PM normally related to having a gun. There was quite a number of other speculations that went through my head, including that everyone might have a gun. but let's address a pertinent issue here.
You sir, are stretching a few truths in this matter, whatever your alignment. Firstly, there has been no "snowballing" accusations against d3x in his absence. What there has been is a discussion over what we should do even if Amished's speculations were correct. Secondly, there has been a discussion over what the source of Amished's speculations were. Neither of these added to the accusations, and in the case of the former, actually was a statement on my part that it wasn't something to pursue today anyhow. In the case of the latter, it was a probing into

Amished's

motivations, and not d3x, so once again you are completely wrong in your stated interpretation of the recent posts creating a "snowball" of accusation against d3x

Last, Amished's speculation is based on things that d3x hasn't had a chance to respond to for ~7 pages, and the accusations have only snowballed over time. (Which reminds me, his V/LA should be up today.) Even if the third party has "inside information", that player has no ulterior motive in revealing it when we're supposed to kill him anyway. Scum is scum.

Once again, wrong as I have just illustrated. There has been no snowball of accusations. 2nd, if you have absolute information that a player is 3rd party,

maybe

we could have a nice long argument over whether you lynch them on day 1. I say no. But in this case, where Amished is just speculating? Definitely hell no. But in the meantime, you figure out just where Amished got the idea of a 3rd party. Because he's scum and knows the numbers? Or he has a gun too and thought to look out for one? Prior to Don shooting, I didnt have that answer. I don't really now, though I suspect you are right and everyone does have one.

BTW unlike Don's assessment, you always look like scum who might be town to me, not the other way around.

Now, get to explaining all of these "anythings" that you so strongly don't disagree with that you can't even list them.

[Ectomancer]

Oh yes Amished, nice delayed OMGUS for my probing of your motivations. Are you sure you waited long enough to not look bad for it?

[Ectomancer]

Bah, I (and we) need the answer to this for a couple reasons anyhow.

shoot Vi

[Ectomancer]

Umm yeah. VP calling me scumbag. I think we'll wait for the results k thx.

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto: Regardless of his alignment; he could be bussing you just as easily. Nice try.

Yes, Don's attempt at bussing failed so I had to try again...

Also, have I ever hinted that I didn't like your questioning my motives for 3rd party? Shit no.

Too bad. This is in fact the crux of the reason for your vote. OMGUS.

Also, it was a valiant effort to try to say that Vi doesn't have a case on you; but I'd suggest that you read all of her posts.

He didn't. He made a characterization that was fictional, and he tried to make me play the game the way he wants. Neither are cases. That leaves you to explain just what it is that you agreed with. No jumping on wagons with a "what Vi said", you can stick your own neck out anytime now.

[Ectomancer]

Oh, you mean how you've basically taken a stance on nothing, and clearly don't take votes on you seriously?

Pay no attention to the Ectomancer trying to distract the Town from playing Mafia from the very beginning.

In the post before where she first votes you.

Ectomancer - There's trying to end the RVS, and then there's completely sidetracking the discussion.

In the next one (which both says that you're not adding to the discussion; and actively distracting the town. Both of which I do agree with.

Less agreeing with what other people have been saying, more taking stances.

How about this line when Vi voted for you again? Not a point against you?

...Ectomancer has done even less for scumhunting, please do me a flavor and kill Ectomancer.

Not an accusation towards you either, eh?

Nope. No case. Vi doesn't like the way I play mafia, period. He can take that up in MD, not in game. I'm not going to argue "optimum" methods of playing. You see what isn't there? Specifics. No case, so what are you agreeing with? Why don't

you

actually make a case there scumbag?

[Ectomancer]

By the way, that has little to do with why I shot Vi, just in case you want to strawman that action later with that reply. Savvy?

[Ectomancer]

lol ok. I'm flat out accusing you of active lurking because you're not actually contributing to the game. Your shot wasted a heal of a power role. If you actually want her dead, make a fucking case. DJ at least explained why he shot Vi.

On that note, why did you shoot Vi?

@Benmage: I'm gonna be in another country; so very away.

Once again someone who makes statements with no backup.

Mischaracterization approaching Vi's level there Amished. Contribution?

Let's see if there is anything directly attributable to Ectomancer.

Pages worth of full attack on Nacho. +++ contribution

Endorsement of VP questioning Ben over his failure to provide reason to

vote, and in fact voted after he said he didnt see anything wrong! +

contribution

Full assessment of Don's actions surrounding his joining the Confid

wagon ++ contribution

Thorough evaluation of Amished's 3rd party speculation ++++

contribution.

Forcing Vi on his nightless gambit and revealing that he had no actual
desire to follow up on this line of thinking. He just wanted to look
(irony here) like he was contributing when in fact he was just trying to
look that way. +++ contribution

So why shoot Vi?

Don shot Vi. - While I protested that it could have been an upfront scum
gambit to bus/shoot a buddy, I think a meteor strike appearing in the
newspaper today about as likely. In this situation, Don is an enigma,
while Vi, Vi is scum. I'll explain why.

Amished with no reasoning suddenly follows scumbag Vi. I think he is
simply backing a buddies play to remove a threat. Establish Vi is scum
before you start following that line of reasoning though.

Some people deserve to be allowed to die. When Vi turns up scum, perhaps our healer might decide to be abit more discerning about who he decides to heal and when. Vi is definitely not obvtown, and claimed vanilla. Why in hell would you heal him?

At least one other question will be answered for me that makes a big difference in how I'll play. Questions to the mod didn't make things clear and I didn't realize exactly how unclear it was until events in game.

[Ectomancer]

All role PMs are out.

Lies.

Vote: hohum

Didn't even random vote. Voted for the mod of all things he could have done. Is that something Vi doesn't think about? Hell no! He knows exactly what he was doing! Look!

The "Random Voting Stage" is a tradition celebrated by Townies who don't want to win and scum that want to burn time until deadline.
The idea behind it is to basically hope that conversation falls out from
it somehow due to the inherent NONrandomness of someone's vote.
By using dice you are not making a nonrandom vote, and therefore doing
nothing to end the useless RVS.
Therefore you are guilty of making the first blatantly anti-Town action in the game and should be wagoned accordingly. Ideally a mod should be able to include some kind of benign conversation starter in the setup.

He did even WORSE than using dice,

he avoided participating in the
rvs at all.

. Also, look at that last line. He states that ideally a
mod should include a benign conversation starter, and then attacks a
player that uses the games flavor as the benign conversation starter.
Total hypocrite in game. This shows he is not posting what he actually
believes.

]Why did his Vote make up your mind?

"hmm, Ecto is being scummy"
Nacho: *vote*
"actually that was a good idea, let's do that"

----

@Nacho: Trim quotes to live. Trim quotes or die. I literally cannot
read that post, and I think I was implicitly accused of something in
there.

---

vi: please explain what's wrong with my six (now seven)
posts? i am still waiting on an answer to my first two questions. is
there something else i should be doing?

Less waiting and more
doing something else while you're waiting comes to mind.

Unvote: Ectomancer
Vote: don_johnson

(L-6)

Voted Ecto and implied there was a reason associated with Nacho's
response, but then we find he was simply wagoning. Then, rather than
support that wagon, he jumps off and votes Don for not contributing. I
guess if you are making a bunch of noise about others contributions,
that means you are contributing? NO.

I like d_j's list, but not because they haven't explained
their RVS votes so much as because they're already flying under the
radar.

Unvote: don_johnson

Let's see, VP Baltar, Sotty7, Amished, maybe ConfidAnon and
PorkExpress... Oh hay, may as well go with the statistically probable
one.

Vote: VP Baltar

(L-6)

Very next post, more vote hopping and no contribution, again.

The ConfidAnon wagon is lame and it has all three of the
people I just listed as good scum candidates on it back-to-back-to-back.
Amished 124 looks like the kind of post I would make to force a weak
wagon on someone.
d_j is also on the wagon but he's playing so badly that I'm less
interested in him.
I like my vote but would freely switch to whichever of VP, Sotty, and
Amished has the largest wagon.
This unfortunately has the side effect of alienating half of my fan club
at once, but etc.

This looks like a slip of revealing inside information. At best his
"scum candidates" are accused of lack of contribution. Yet, he uses a
vote (and a good one) on Confid as

another

reason these people
are scum? Keeping our options wide open arent we Vi?

On Nacho vs. Ectomancer: Nacho reminds me of me. I don't
think he's scum ATM.
Ectomancer can... well, he knows how that sentence ends.

More bias and biasing. "Nacho reminds me of me" buddy buddy buddy and
Ecto can...get after your ass like nobody else will?

[Nacho]

had four votes by page three you had
nothing really to say about that. What do you think about the two wagons
side by side?

I don't mind the Nacho wagon as much tbh. I like
Admiral D3X,

I can go with what Ectomancer is doing

, the jury is
out on PorkchopExpress, and Benmage is already in front of me.
Do you have any solid insight you would like to contribute to the
conversation?

Wait, I thought Ecto wasn't doing anything? Oh, and here we have Vi's
"contribute" word again. Where is Vi's contribution? Oh that's right, he
accuses people of not contributing.

Again, how do you define "scummy
townies"?

People who act scummy, and yet happen to be Town (or
are probably Town).
I have no idea why you think it was too early for that suggestion to be
tossed around.

Unvote: VP Baltar
Vote: Sotty7

(L-6)

Obviously avoiding me where possible.

More vote hopping with no case. Contribution? It's what's lacking.

Deflection how? This is still me not
avoiding you which was your reasoning for voting me in the first place.
So I scum because I have opposite reads to you? I don't buy that. I
disagree with plenty of people but that doesn't make them auto scum in
my book. But it's nice to know how to get on your good side quick (agree
with you at every point)

Well, I

do

like having
followers... :vain:

I'm reading your question about the Nacho wagon as an attempt to steer
the conversation away from the ConfidAnon wagon, which was part of why I
was talking to you in the first place.

Really? Detracting from the Confid that you think is town? Clearly just
slinging mud wherever it will stick.

Vi is neutral to me, which has me
worried. I've been able to read her better in other games than I have
here.

The rapid vote switching and suspecting everyone doesn't seem
like a good setup to the game either.

I'd love for you to elaborate on this, especially considering I don't
suspect "everyone". (although it's true that I don't have much to any
obvious Town reads)
Similarly, listing posts that are scummy without bringing up any
justification neither helps nor convinces anyone.
Why are you so confident - or even

bringing up

- that d3x could
be third party?

I've also an eyebrow to raise about how you jumped on the ConfidAnon
wagon and then off it in favor of the equally large Benmage wagon - each
time for reasons that

just happen

to have already been mentioned
by others.

Several points here. First, I just demonstrated how Vi listed or voted
pretty much everyone. 2nd, Vi brings up the 3rd party

himself

,
yet later uses it to accuse others and

despite never getting an
answer himself to this quite important question he drops it so that he
can accuse based upon "3rd party speculation"

. Another hypocritical
move.

@Vi: I was the first to actually vote
for CA, so good detective work on that one. In that post (93) I also
expressed my wish to vote for Benmage, so this isn't a new development.
At that point, Benmage didn't have a vote on him either.

I would
be more inclined to go along with this if you mentioned anything about
WHY you wanted to vote either of those people at the time.

Really? And where were your reasons for your vote hopping? More
hypocritical non-contribution from our contribution hound.

I was (somewhat) obvious Town.

vi is one of those players that always
reads town imo. only way to know for sure is investigate,vig, etc.

lol, I thought I was acting really scummy in this game - good
for my meta!

Geez, no contradiction there.

Ectomancer: Everyone has a gun. I think that has been made
rather apparent by now.

Oh wouldn't you like us to believe that? Why don't you shoot me then
scumbag? Because you can't? Oh but how convenient to be healed and be
"confirmed" as the townie who wouldnt shoot.

@Vi: If d3x is SK, then he's a threat
to the mafia; and if I can lynch a mafia while also adding another
suspect (or even not) then there's a chance that d3x hits mafia, mafia
goes after the "other" killing role; two anti-town killing roles dead
and three mafia dead in a cycle. Obviously a lot of things have to fall
in place, but it's not outlandish. Mafia has always been my priority.

If we were in LyLo then I would see your point. At the
beginning of the game, getting rid of a night-kill is a priority
(especially since if this game is 8-3-1 that sounds like the setup's
fault).
Further, notice what you're doing -

making excuses to avoid lynching
someone you're calling out for scum

without providing a suitable
alternative that you are as confident in.

Slandering Amished without addressing Amished's point, or really
addressing his reasoning. We are talking about a 3rd party here, and
while they can be lumped into a general "scum" category, the two
certainly are not the same thing.

@Amished: I kind of agree with Ectomancer 309 in that rushing a lynch because my vote's going to go away won't do much good.
I disagree about the extra killing though. It occurs to me that if we don't take the game to Night and there aren't many power roles, we'll be better off democratically choosing who to shoot.

Comments on Ecto's contribution that he supposedly didnt make. Here proposes a nightless game, but then later refuses to pursue it. What did you think of that ruined your gameplan?

That would be a strong implication from my posts...
But I would recommend you hold your fire until there's a decision made on this game going nightless tbh.

Well ok, let's talk about it.

Wait, does that heal actually count? *sets out mod bait*

I didn't like this much when you wrote it Vi. We don't know the number of power roles and cant exactly take a poll. I had planned to wait until your alignment flip to see where your allegiance lies to evaluate the earnestness of the idea, but if you've been healed, I'd like you to re-evaluate this and either elaborate on why it would work for us, or snuff it as not useful.

You don't like anything anyone says except for third party speculation. Or would you rather I die?

Simply put, unless there's a role that gives Town an advantage that outweighs a Mafia night-kill (by which I mean

Cop

) there's no point in

not

killing the day away.
While there is a decent possibility for there to exist a Cop in this setup given the flavor, the number of places left to look for one is getting smaller considering there have been two claims so far, so that Cop is already in heightened danger.

Great, so there is your reason. There's no point in not killing the day away. So why don't we? Let's do it!

It wounds my soul to move my vote from Ectomancer-scum, but I can hop onto an Amished wagon.

Unvote: Ectomancer
Vote: Amished

(L-5)

more vote hopping

PoE is Process of Elimination.

Vote count looks like this.

U. Vote Count

Benmage (L-5) ~ VP Baltar, Nachomamma7
VP Baltar (L-5) ~ Amished, Benmage
Amished (L-5) ~ Sotty7, Vi
Ectomancer (L-5) ~ pwnz, don_johnson
Nachomamma7 (L-6) ~ d3x
don_johnson (L-6) ~ ConfidAnon
pwnz (L-6) ~ Ectomancer

Not Voting: PorkchopExpress

This? More lack of contribution while "contributing" with a vote count.

blah blah blah blah

no comment necessary that I haven't said a couple of dozen times already

Way to avoid actually responding.

*messes up the vote count*

Unvote: Amished
Vote: Ectomancer

(L-4)

MORE vote hopping ffs.

Hypocrisy goes here.

Clearly you didnt understand post 360, nor bother to read 370...But hell i'll indulge you...What about 367 stuck out as particularly good, suddenly so convincing you want to vote me?

Yea, I've read the thread. 360 doesn't do anything for me. Coasting is just as much a scumtell as it is a lazy towntell. *waits for ben to bring up meta* And meta on it's own isn't a case.

I brought up meta...you playing this game?

If you're talking about your case on VP Baltar - and if you're not, oh well - then you absolutely

did

bring up meta.

With that said, meta itself

can

make up a case.
In addition, while "lazy Townies" coast, they're also the ones that hurt less if mislynched.

Completely crap response just making noise. Hello? Ben just said he brought up meta? He certainly didnt deny it, so why does Vi need to respond as though he did? Noise and fluff and trying to look busy, that's it.

No summary required. Vi should have been allowed to die for all the reasons above.

[Ectomancer]

not sure if vi's hit. could be only one shot per day for all of us, or not all of us may be able to shoot. let's lynch ecto, let vi die, then someone shoot benmage. that should net us plenty of info and drop someone from each "faction". i like games with mechanics like this because you can move them along. let's not get all lazy and drag this shit out.

Exactly, plus other mechnics questions you aren't asking or would even know to ask.

you tell me.

Well im gonna see what rolls with vi. and than kill you.

what do you mean? are you going to kill me depending on her flip? or are you going to kill me regardless?

if she flips scum wouldn't it make more sense to kill Conifd?

if she flips town, wouldn't it make more sense to shoot Ecto?

i am not following you. maybe its because you are full of shit.

if you are going to shoot then go ahead and shoot. stop being such a pussy.

Good questions and demand.

regardless

Ummm yeah. Explain your regardless reasoning. The whole point of shooting Vi is to determine alignment and utilize that information along with other information we will get from this. If you intended to shoot Don regardless, why didn't you shoot him already?

[Ectomancer]

I'll go ahead and give the question to one other answer. I'm a retired soldier. I fought against the Indians and now I'm trying to settle down peacefully in this little town except Vi and his buddies has other plans. I'm shooting Vi for all the reasons above,

plus

to dispel the notion that the mod revealed alignement in his flavor of Vi being shot. I don't expect to miss, and I don't expect to simply wound him either.

[Ectomancer]

I read your {ecto's} first post, and about 3 sections of your 2nd; and I see at least 3 glaring mistakes.

Also, vote-hopping is not inherently scummy. Provide motivation more than picking up on the surface if you're gonna convince anybody.

I don't care what you have to say until you've read everything. I have noted that you interupted your read to hurry over and post a strawman to defend your buddy though. Why the rush, rather than finish the read and post a proper reply? Better to sling mud on it first ehh?

Random question: Ecto, why didn't you bring any of this up when I was voting Vi before DJ shot him? Why now instead of you seeing she's more widely read?

Also, I have confidence in Benmage to not shoot dj mostly cause of in game flavor. I'm pretty sure that just slipped his mind (I've seen Ben forget some little things from time to time).

Why would I reveal my case to Vi until I had enough of one to lynch? I'm not trying to alter Vi's behaviour, which is what you do when you don't like what someone is doing. You vote them, warn them about the nasty behavior and wait for them to change or not. I'm not interested in getting scum to change their play.

[Ectomancer]

Also, I have confidence in Benmage to not shoot dj mostly cause of in game flavor. I'm pretty sure that just slipped his mind (I've seen Ben forget some little things from time to time).

Indeed, but if its me or him, its him whose dying. And the dudes tunneled for no apparent reason for quite some time.

Well he already shot twice and is out of bullets (at least for today), so he certainly cant shoot you. Your vote is somewhere else, so you don't look to be lynching him. What are you going to do? Wait until tomorrow when he could get another bullet to shoot you? If you don't care about the reveal, then why wait, especially if you are concerned that it could take us to night?

What I'm saying is your actions don't seem to match your convictions, and by waiting you're just gauging the town's reactions to your statement to Don. So either you meant it, and were just taunting Don when you could have waited (what purpose did that serve if his response didnt matter?) So...I can only assume you said it to decide whether town would approve or not. Why do you care? If he's scum, shoot him!

[Ectomancer]

I think that with ConfidAnon cleared we can still take this to nightless.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, why are you suddenly in favor of going to Nightless after saying using that very same suggestion as being obvious evidence of my sinister intent?

I don't think you need my shot at this point.

Why wouldn't you use your shot if it could help the Town? Are you not sure of your Vote on Ecto?

I think that with ConfidAnon cleared we can still take this to nightless.

I was being a smartass.

[Ectomancer]

Post 466...that's this one -3, and yours -2...

[Ectomancer]

As far as I'm concerned, this is semi-twilight. We'll see, but yeah, other than chat there shouldn't be any actions taken.

[Ectomancer]

Soldier bitch.

[Ectomancer]

It was more of a rhetorical question. What are you basing your theory off of?

h healed vi. now he's "waiting" for flip in order to vote. doesn't make sense. he thought vi was town enough to heal. why wait to vote? why not pursue his top suspect? he's not scumhunting. hasn't been since page 1. i was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding his stubborness, but we're into this now. and i see no reason why scum wouldn't have a healer if they are the minority standing in a room full of trigger happy monkeys. its not 100%, but i'm not going to sit by and let the pot call the kettle black(i.e. don't tell me to play better when you're playing like shit) it makes more sense to me if he's scum.

I was thinking along the same lines myself. He would look quite the confirmed hero?
Look, I'm sorry about Vi turning up town, but not sorry I shot him. I suspected from the wording of my PM that I was a full Vig and I wanted to know, and Vi was playing scummy to me. How do I base that? I've played with Vi as scum buddies, I've played with Vi with me as scum and him as town, and I've played with Vi as both of us town (and I think both vanilla). I made my case, and my only regret is that it will just make Vi that much more frustrating to play with.

[Ectomancer]

Alright, I'm going to go back through the questions one at a time.

Don also shot at a town Vi. I think he did it for much the same type of meta reasons that I did. Ben, you said you were going to shoot him regardless. What are you going to do now?

[Ectomancer]

Going to

unvote

for awhile.

[Ectomancer]

Also, regarding mod absence, is the deadline still set for dec 07th? I believe that was the date?

[Ectomancer]

I'm also guessing from Vi's result that there is a random factor to the shooting. I could also have gotten entirely lucky and gotten a random kill shot, but I don't think so.

[Ectomancer]

Umm yeah. VP calling me scumbag. I think we'll wait for the results k thx.

And here we are. What I really don't understand is your rational there. Vi had freaking claimed after she thought she was dying, so there was really no reason not to believe her (at least at that point). I also really don't like how you are instantly deflecting towards others now that she flipped.

Did your growing wagon have anything to do with you shooting perchance?

Also, can you link me a game you were in where Vi was town, please.

You take your lumps and move on. I'm sure you can find a game where Vi is town. Did you mean the one where Vi is town and I'm playing too? Or what? If so, why wouldn't you also want the ones where Vi is scum since a comprehensive meta would be what you want?

Why would I reveal my case to Vi until I had enough of one to lynch? I'm not trying to alter Vi's behaviour, which is what you do when you don't like what someone is doing.

You do realize this game generally works best when players make cases and convince others it is a good case. If the "case" you presented on Vi was as comprehensive as you claim it to be, why wouldn't you just post it and get her lynched? Nothing you have said accurately explains WHY it was necessary to shoot her.

Yes, post a case of actions she has yet to make, that makes a lot of sense, doesnt it? What you are demanding is that you instantly leap on anyone doing anything suspicious the very instant they do it. Play your own game of mafia. I'm going to feed them the rope and then hang them with it once it gets long enough and not before.

Well he already shot twice and is out of bullets (at least for today), so he certainly cant shoot you. Your vote is somewhere else, so you don't look to be lynching him. What are you going to do? Wait until tomorrow when he could get another bullet to shoot you? If you don't care about the reveal, then why wait, especially if you are concerned that it could take us to night?

What I'm saying is your actions don't seem to match your convictions, and by waiting you're just gauging the town's reactions to your statement to Don. So either you meant it, and were just taunting Don when you could have waited (what purpose did that serve if his response didnt matter?) So...I can only assume you said it to decide whether town would approve or not. Why do you care? If he's scum, shoot him!

^Fearmongering....why the frak are people not lynching ecto?

Fearmongering? I believe its called holding people to their stated convictions.

ecto has posted some thought provoking material recently and has also taken a position regarding vi(by shooting). this reads as possible town to me.

Really? What was thought provoking about it?

To the non-biased? Plenty.

Yes, I realize my claim doesn't actually mean anything other than I told the truth. I also realize that after I argued against lynching a 3rd party early in the game that I could have been prepping my own defense, and I also realize that the rational used to say that Don shooting when he did means he likely isn't scum would be a good inspiration for deciding to shoot as an (SK?) 3rd party and hope for similiar bias towards me. Well, no to put it bluntly. But yes, I realize wine is flowing.

[Ectomancer]

ecto: let's lynch confid. i don't understand why he thinks vi's flip would be any more "interesting" after he used his healing powers to save vi in the first place. on top of that his play has been horrible and his tremendous overreaction to the simple one word question "why?" was downright laughable. if not confid, then who? my second choice would be benmage with vp knocking on the door.

I'd prefer to keep him around until it becomes clear we need to look under that rock. For me, VP looks way to much like he knew Vi was town before he flipped.

[Ectomancer]

Nothing you have said accurately explains WHY it was necessary to shoot her.

I don't think I answered this adequately. Why? Because I

believe

what I'm telling Ben. if you think someone is scum, then shoot them.
I know that is practically a taunt to you to shoot me, but I will offer one word there, you have at least got to believe that I do not possess a night kill and having none, at the worst I lend a number against any players that

do

have a night kill. I am however as I say, a retired soldier trying to live here peacefully. I will venture that I will do my utmost

not

to shoot tomorrow in order to at least prove that I am not compulsive.
Does that satisfy you for today?

[Ectomancer]

Basically VP goes through the entire game without ever challenging Vi, even though Vi took a poke or two in VP's direction. Tiptoe'ing around is the impression I got.

After Vi was shot the first time by Don, VP goes directly into a defense of Ben, never seeming to even consider that Vi might be scum.

You damn dirty ape.


Unfortunately, I get the feeling that dj might be town in spite of everything.

VP Baltar's response doesn't do anything for me but solidify my previous read. Please kill him and add another scum game to his collection.

I know it's sour grapes to get knocked out of a game early, but dj's right about it being unlikely for scum to daykill like that. Not saying he gets a free pass or anything, but doesn't seem like a scum move to me.

I don't follow why you're saying scum wouldn't do that.

Because if he's scum, it's an excessive amount of heat on him Day 1. If I was scum and had a daykill, I would certainly save it for later in the game when it is going to do the most damage and work in my favor.

Shooting someone day 1 for little reasoning isn't sound strategy.

I see nothing in there but early excuses for when Vi turns up town.

Yeah, it occured to me after I posted that Vi may simply be dead dead...which I would prefer to having one of my few town reads get killed.

Starting... when?

Notice where my vote is at. Still very much want Ecto dead...and that's without a major catch up yet!

I do think you're town Vi, but very pissed that you're just shooting.

This part is confusing as well. He's happy that Vi is dead and not someone VP thinks is town...but nowhere did we see where VP made any move in Vi's direction. It doesn't fit with his posts. Then a couple posts later he says "yeah I do think you're town".

Yeah well I think that idea came through, just the question is, how did you know?

Is it an entirely strong case? Not really. He may have never challenged Vi over anything because he never saw an opportunity or other items (like Ben) where more pressing to him. Still, from my point of view, I see unjustified bias in his attitude towards Vi.


VP, you can use a search function as well as I can. I don't know who you are puffing up towards to demand information "in my next post" you can find yourself. I might get around to it when I get a chance.

[Ectomancer]

What's your opinion of Ecto's choice to shoot Vi, did you think his case was valid?

I felt like p435 was fairly solid, but I'm very wary about his p513 considering...

I don't expect to miss, and I don't expect to simply wound him either.

Why would you consider the possibility of getting extremely lucky with a kill shot if you expect a kill shot based on your RolePM? Smells fishy to me.

Smells like you want it to smell fishy. I explained from the start that the function of my role PM was in question and was definitely a minor part of why I shot Vi. When I saw him dead, I rejoiced and promptly posted "Soldier bitch", and then I saw that Vi missed completely. So we had a wounding shot, a killing shot, and a miss. While I still consider it 99% likely that I interpreted it correctly and I won't miss if I try again, the fact still remains that we appear to have random factors involved in either the shootings, or perhaps all guns aren't the same. So it is

entirely

possible that I'm assuming I'm a crack shot, when in fact I could have rolled a kill shot and next time could just as easily miss.
Definitely not what I wanted out of that. Throw in the idea that Vi was already dead when he hit the ground and his shot

could

have missed because of that.

We don't know

.

Why in the hell would you want me lying or hiding that kind of information when the thought comes to mind?

[Ectomancer]

Ecto post 532 please

I look to be going through that now, or did you just miss the entire post on VP Baltar's interactions with Vi during this game?

[Ectomancer]

Here you go. While your there, you damn well better read town Ecto as well as town Vi.

viewtopic.php?t=9032&highlight=ectomancer

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP:

After Vi was shot the first time by Don, VP goes directly into a defense of

DON

, never seeming to even consider that Vi might be scum.

[Ectomancer]

VP, you can use a search function as well as I can. I don't know who you are puffing up towards to demand information "in my next post" you can find yourself. I might get around to it when I get a chance.

I'm not puffing up anything and you have absolutely no reason to not provide a link to a game. Unless of course you have something to hide, which you likely do.

Was that the most recent game you had with Vi as town? That is what I'm looking for. The game you provided is very old and can't really be used as any sort of meta imo.

Use the damn search function yourself.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto post 532 please

I look to be going through that now, or did you just miss the entire post on VP Baltar's interactions with Vi during this game?

I did. And it reads that VPB has been inconsistent, and the whole post is in general opposition of him.

So why not vote?

He may or may not be the choice for today. You are not the only one who needs a re-read and doesn't get to it. He does stand out for now, but so do those who faded into the background. Contrary to my bravado, hitting town

does

also hit my confidence...

[Ectomancer]

I'm not puffing up anything and you have absolutely no reason to not provide a link to a game. Unless of course you have something to hide, which you likely do.

Oh yes, I'm totally hiding the fact that I've played many games with Vi as many different role configurations between the two of us. When you get through cherry picking through those games to make whatever point you want to find support for, you will feel so much better knowing you did the research and legwork with that oh so difficult search button yourself. Irritates the piss out of me to go out of my way to do it for you only to have you bitch about the age of the fricking game.
I think I very well may have been scum in the last 3 games with Vi (hence his comment that I am always scum). Maybe you could find out and then tell us that statistically I should be scum in 4 games in a row with Vi?

I don't know what you want, go find it yourself.

[Ectomancer]

No, you denying doesn't wash it away. You don't look like a town member who thought Vi might be town to me. In case you hadn't noticed, "Quoting things and going "see, that supports my point" is the way this is done. Your "Vi is town" bias doesn't look to have game basis to me, especially when Vi said himself he wasn't playing townish.

[Ectomancer]

Nice twist there. I don't read you as calling Don town, I see you immediately launch into a defense of Don's actions, never wondering whether Vi might actually be scum. If his move was townish, somewhere in there you must consider that Don might be

right

, but you never do. You just launch right into defending against a townie death. That displays bias.
Another twist on words to call questioning Vi "omgus". You don't go after Vi because you knew not to do it. Any altercation in the long run would only reveal Vi to be town, so you didn't pursue anything and let Vi's pokes at you just slide off your back.

[Ectomancer]

Ben claimed a town read, but I didn't see his commentary display a bias the way that yours does. In your case, I see objectivity lacking.

[Ectomancer]

Nice scrambling, but I'm not reading anything to change my mind on what I believe that I see.

[Ectomancer]

Nice scrambling, but I'm not reading anything to change my mind on what I believe that I see.

Wow, how town of you to not want to have an informed opinion.

Look, I'm not voting you, and I'm not interested in making the rest of the day about you. If you have more to say on it, please say it. Clearly I'm not ready to throw an entire case behind it. You should be happy about that after complaining that I didnt bring up a case on Vi until I shot him.
What you want me to do is justify why I shot rather than lynch. That's plain and simple. You find out, and if wrong, you don't give scum an opportunity for a night kill. Is it abit lazy? Maybe a tad. While I usually feel pretty good about my ability to take a case to lynch, it also takes alot out of you, demanding alot of time and patience. Considering Vi is easily top 5 scummer for me, I really didn't want to tango either. I shot. Now we have words we know for certain belong to a town member, the

only

one confirmed to us. My plan is to go back and read what Vi had to say in that light.

[Ectomancer]

My plan is to go back and read what Vi had to say in that light.

One of Amished and Ectomancer is virtually guaranteed to be scum for the third party speculation. Since VP Baltar just called out Amished and since Ectomancer has done even less for scumhunting, please do me a flavor and kill Ectomancer.

*hic

While you are selectively quoting lets get them all out there. Your name came up at least once as well my friend.

VP Baltar's response doesn't do anything for me but solidify my previous read. Please kill him and add another scum game to his collection.

So Ectomancer is scum and VP Baltar is scum. Do we have a third member of the party yet?

I don't understand Ectomancer 466, but it really doesn't matter tbh.

----

I expect at least one scum between {Amished,

Sotty7,

VP Baltar} and one lurkerscum (pwnz is probably the best pick here).

[Ectomancer]

Ecto your post 539 is reaching just a tad. The first section of quotes isn't VP saying Vi is town or making excuses for it. It is VP making excuses for Don if anything. The second part never has VP calling Vi scum, the logical reasoning is that I am higher on his townie list than Vi was. There isn't scum or town category for everyone, it's scale.

Pay attention to what you are saying.

"It is VP making excuses for Don if anything.

Exactly, why in hell would he need to make excuses for Don? Vi could very easily have been scum, no excuses required. Making premature excuses tell me he already knew what the flip would be.

[Considering Vi is easily top 5 scummer for me, I really didn't want to tango either. I shot. Now we have words we know for certain belong to a town member, the

only

one confirmed to us. My plan is to go back and read what Vi had to say in that light.

Just because Vi flipped town doesn't mean she was right about anything.

Unvote, Vote: Ecto

Way to distort the message pal. Vi is the

only

known town voice and opinion. Interesting how you leap to totally discount anything Vi had to say while voting me for killing that town player.

fos Sotty7

I think pwnz nailed it in post 571 and add onto that Ecto's attacks on VP a popular target without attaching his vote. That's enough to earn mine. I am also very uneasy about d3x and Nacho.

How about stating your own case instead of a "what he said"? Ecto's "attacks" on VP were direct responses to "attacks" on my statement that VP already looked like he knew Vi was town. Love these types of plays. You see if you dont answer, you are avoiding, while if you address the questions you are being overly aggressive or attacking vehemently with little reasoning if you actually vote, while in this case I'm attacking a popular target

without

attaching a vote.
You can't lose can you? Got an attack for everything

As for pwnz on Nacho and Ecto? Standard Op. Go read any Ecto to find me ripping people on day 1 only to move along. What, you want to vote for not voting a day 1 page 3 'start the game' target? Get fucking real dude. The only way you could run this line is if you think there was enough there to lynch Nacho and I abandoned it. If that is the case, where were you pages and pages ago? (Ecto is now the easy target) Why aren't you pushing this Nacho case that was so great that it was suspicious of me to move along?

[Ectomancer]

P.S. - If you are on my wagon you have a gun and no balls. Fire away and demonstrate your convictions. In fact, I think we should do a couple "lynch by shootin"'s today. Im curious what happens if someone gets 2 wounding shots. Do they die?

Go ahead VP, go ahead Sotty or pwnz. Fire till you hit me twice. Let's see what goes down. Point of fact is, I'm not convinced scum is going to have nightkills and guns worth a damn. I'm betting that at best I get wounded from whichever of you might be town. If so, somebody else shoot me.
Once we find out if multiple wounds kill, ya'll figure out the next target and shoot them too. Keep it from going to night as much as possible and still get information from deaths.
Why? I think its valuable information, I think it is a good plan to follow, I'm already damaged goods to the town for a couple reasons, and like Vi, I'm a little burnt out. I don't mind dying in order to put the stamp of "townie" on another set of good opinions. (P.S. - I think Sotty should be shot 2nd, seriously, trying to trash Vi's opinions offhandedly was ridiculous)

[Ectomancer]

Umm no. The thing is I never said any of those things. The fact is you are attacking VP while not putting a vote down. If you agree that VP really

knew

Vi's alignment then in your eyes he should be scum shouldn't he? It's like you don't even believe the stuff you're saying and can't bring yourself to vote for whatever reason.

That's pretty funny telling me actions lack the strength of my convictions. I also wont be taunted into rushing to lynch VP either. We've still got time, though I would appreciate if the

mod

would definitely post the deadline, especially when I believe we deserve an extension from the MIA duo. Game was in limbo for days due to mod absence. In my humble opinion of course...

[Ectomancer]

We got what

ConA,

d3x, pwnz, and nacho all coasting this game...there obviously scum there. Theres always lurking scum.. Why we aren't startin with these.. i mean the game dies with activity.

put your money where your mouth is and lynch the fucker. to say "why arent' we startin' here?" is ridiculous. iv'e been there for a while now. if we don't lynch conA then it should be sotty or vp. they are obvious scum.

There's no reason to rush on ConA Don, unless he starts healing scum or we run out of options.

[Ectomancer]

You make an excellent point about that honestly. You could even add the mod in there.

I could do a d3x or Nacho vote.

I started to ask why, then I got unlazy and re-read you, at least partially. You're being rather consistent I'd say. Also wanted to remind you of my response and ended up reminding

myself

what put me on to other things.

Why does ConfidAnon deserve the vote more than pwnz? Let me show you how you should have done it:

ConfidAnon, what exactly do you mean by "Nacho is obviously scummy?"

Substance pwnz, today.

unvote, vote pwnz

I thought you wanted to ride nacho's wagon to a lynch. Why the sudden change of heart?

Responses indicate a lack of interest and beating the same dead horse won't generate new useful content. Nor is anything further I do along those lines likely to alter his starting objectionable behavior. I also liked post 98 where he chose to take the opportunity to force others into the discussion rather than focus on a refusal to volley questions back and forth as VP Baltar did. All of that calls for searching for other likely suspects.

If he were lurking, then I could get behind banging on Nacho, but he's flat out gone. Has been for a week. I thought he would have been replaced 4 days ago? (another deadline extension plug) I see that you actually are irritated with me over Nacho, but really, the guy isn't even here for me to have anything else to base from than the initial case.

I see why you were dissing on Vi, because of the shot on you, but seriously, don't dismiss everything the guy had to say because he shot at you. He demanded my lynch or something if you don't recall. I'm not calling him John or Paul writing Gospel, but when I'm torn between 2 sides of an argument, I'll be looking at his opinion.

I guess you are still looking at d3x for interference with Nacho and apparently cherrypicking where he chooses to enter the conversation?

[Ectomancer]

Now you basically said that because Vi flipped town you want to go back and read what she had to say, I have no issue with that but you were the one that built a big case on Vi based on those posts. You thought that what she did and said was scummy enough to shoot her a second time to make sure she ended up dead. Townie or not shouldn't that mean that you just disagree with Vi in this game? Knowing her alignment should change your mind too much, unless you want to admit you were completely wrong and she was completely right. It just felt like you were getting ready to appeal to her authority.

I'm not above eating a little crow now and again. Yes, on simple disagreements I doubt another read will change my opinion much, but on issues where motivation by Vi was in doubt, then the motivation is no longer in doubt and it deserves an unclouded interpretation. I understand the concern, but that shot could only ever be a minor point against you anyhow, if one at all. I wasn't trying to prep it up for one by giving Vi's words some authority.

[Ectomancer]

I hear you and I follow that I risk being hypocritical, but...he's a healer. We know that for certain. I also know the old axiom of "you lynch scum", but...we can use that heal and shoot him if he tries to heal the wrong player.

[Ectomancer]

Still missing Amished now for 6 days now as well. Seriously I think half the game is inactive or flat out MIA.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto, what are your thoughts on a Porkchop lynch?

Not interested. Guy doesnt post often, but when he does he takes positions, asks questions, makes accusations. His last real input was Nov 30th. He promises more soon, so was MIA, but now isn't. Maybe one of the last players I'm looking at.

[Ectomancer]

So it appears I am at L-2? 33-50% of the town missing or inactive for about a week. Hmm. I've claimed already so I have no need to decide between L-2 or L-1 on that one. That number could hop quickly with a group that large rushing back in no?
Well, to VPB I believe it was, you say Vi claimed, correct? I think it is also true he claimed vanilla. I've also heard it said that my shot came out of the blue or something like that. Well why would I shoot Vi of all people if I were scum? I know wifom yadayada, but seriously, why? Out of the blue? Because I had, what, 2 votes at the time? IIRC?
I'm still hoping to get the mod ruling on the deadline before the actual deadline gets here, but I'm also still going to try to take my time in figuring out who is the best lynch, and I'm not going to be rushed into it simply because my head is lingering dangerously near the noose.

[Ectomancer]

Please mods, deadline answer? Before deadline?

I've posted my own basis for suspicion on VPB. If you want more, I would likely reference others positions as I primarily agree with the assessments. You know good and well I can go back and find more, but seriously, if you've played this game at all you know you can build a case on just about anyone if you are already biased in that direction.
So...along with my posted suspicions and the fact that I cant get an answer from the mods on deadline, and from a "Im town and you might not be" perspective, I'm not getting lynched today.

vote VPB

VP - you might want to pressure those mods for a deadline as well. I'm open to looking other directions, but you are tops for me right now, and I'm not lynching ConfidAnon today. If a deadline extension occurs, I'll open my vote again.

[Ectomancer]

unvote, vote ecto

you're all scummy. his flip should clear some things up. if he's town then both sotty and vpb are scum. if he's scum then someone should shoot me tomorrow before you lynch benmage.

sorry ec, you know i love ya.

That's ok, though I think it is foolish ot lynch

anyone

right now with all the absences. Don't kill Confid tomorrow unless alot of killing goes down. I don't think you are barking up a wrong tree necessarily, but conservative on that one at least ok?

[Ectomancer]

In fact, like I said earlier, you really need to just shoot me if you plan to lynch me. At least then the lost will speak before nightfall.

[Ectomancer]

Hrmm. Alrighty. I'm the GunSlinger. Really sorry I hit town, but I seriously thought Vi was scum this game.
I've also been tempting you to shoot me because I've also got reason to believe that I'm harder to hit than at least some of you blokes. I figured if you saw some bulletproof you might think townie, but bleh. That just means you will need to lynch me.
But. I'm still counting against scum, if there are 3, then kill me and it will be 3-6 with a nightkill tomorrow and I don't necessarily believe my own line about them not having guns. it could be 3-3 real quick. Keep me around a day. I'll be good. I actually did not plan to shoot tomorrow, as I stated.
You can at least count on my reasoning, and right now the only way I stand any chance is to find scum.

[Ectomancer]

I shoot people dead.

[Ectomancer]

What does it say after the word Gunslinger in your PM?

I doubt my claim will help you create a town claim of your own.

[Ectomancer]

What does it say after the word Gunslinger in your PM?

You.

You might want the words "elusive" and "deadly accurate". Thus far the deadly accurate part seems to have been confirmed.

[Ectomancer]

I am what I first said I was, a retired soldier. Only reason I claimed GunSlinger was because it was clear my actual claim was going to get me lynched. I knew a 3rd party would actually stand a better chance of being left alive.
Nacho shot me because other than VP, he was the only other player I really had pinged on and the only reason he wasn't next to VP on the lynching block is because he lurked his ass through until now.

Lynch VP, shoot Nacho, or the other way around. Confid burned his heal so he can't help whichever one you shoot.

[Ectomancer]

I am what I first said I was, a retired soldier. Only reason I claimed GunSlinger was because it was clear my actual claim was going to get me lynched.

I knew a 3rd party would actually stand a better chance of being left alive.

Nacho shot me because other than VP, he was the only other player I really had pinged on and the only reason he wasn't next to VP on the lynching block is because he lurked his ass through until now.

Lynch VP, shoot Nacho, or the other way around. Confid burned his heal so he can't help whichever one you shoot.

The only reason I shot you is because you're still acting very scummily, because you said you want to test your own elusiveness, and because we're going absolutely nowhere debating about your fake claim.

Also, what were you trying to get across with the bolded?

What I'm trying to get across is that despite giving my real claim earlier, my wagon still got to L-1. What did I have left in my pockets? A 3rd party claim, which if you look, got my wagon deflated. My instincts were correct.

and because we're going absolutely nowhere debating about your fake claim.

Nice try, my claim was never debated at all, anywhere, by anyone, and especially not by

you

.

unvote, vote Nacho

Help me take this guy down before I go please.

[Ectomancer]

LOL, you act like asking you to do something grants you permission or makes it a non-scummy play. You

doing

it damn sure changes things.

[Ectomancer]

VP Baltar is just as good.

unvote, vote VP Baltar

[Ectomancer]

More bluster with no action. At least Nacho committed.

[Ectomancer]

Im never going to forgive Nacho for giving me a gut shot. I mean kill me, but c'mon, in the gut? Aim for the face...

[Ectomancer]

I had fun. It was impossible to resist shooting Vi.

[Ectomancer]

And on average, 77% of the time you are correct