Newbie 869 - Game over

[Mr Finch]

Evening all!

Vote: Jee

'cos your name's too short!

Actually, I gather that the Random Voting thing is not particularly effective so I might post some questions for peeps to answer.

[Mr Finch]

WAAAGOOOON!!

Unvote, Vote RPG*Twilight

Why? Isn't this a particularly Scummy thing to do?

Unvote

FoS Ellibereth

A couple of things for info:

1. Although I have played MS on here before it was over two years ago. I haven't played anywhere since but am back and playing now.
2. I am not receiving topic reply notifications from the forum so apologise if I miss a few posts. Yes, the option is ticked. I try to check in lunchtime and evening daily but it won't always be possible.

[Mr Finch]

Thanks RPG, that's exactly what I did when I first found the topic but so far haven't received any notifications - not even my role PM notification.

It's ok, I'll just have to check in more regularly.

[Mr Finch]

Why do I think a quick L-2 and Wagon so early is scummy?

Well, as Kami says, if you are town, and assuming that the other two voters think it's clever to wagon (or don't remove their vote for whatever reason), putting someone at L-2 will allow the scum to quick lynch.

Boom and we've lost a townie.

By you putting the L-2 on makes me think that you are scum, pushing the wagon, suggesting other players (1 scum, 1 town) lynch making you look like town and pointing the FOS at the players that lynched. Does that make sense? I have tried to re-write it 4 times - apologies I have had three teeth removed today and not sure that I am thinking straight.

[Mr Finch]

Elli - is this your first game?

For that matter, what are others' experience of playing?

[Mr Finch]

Guys. Seriously, cool off a bit. It was L-2. That's it. There's no way 2 Town would place L-1 and hammer votes, so there was no danger of a lynch.

You guys are massively overreacting here.

Scumbuddies?

[Mr Finch]

This is Eli's first game on-site. What does that have to do with anything?

Nothing in particular, just trying to judge experience that's all.

[Mr Finch]

@ Twilight. yah that wasn't me. you confused me. Also, you don't want to say, "Oh I'm not going to random vote during RVS, so I will put a second vote on someone." That may create suspicion on me. I saw that you had one vote, so I put a second one on to create pressure, discised as a random vote.

And look at where that got us. DISCUSSION WOO.



and yah... avatar will come. i'll pick something random.

On another note,

vote Deer

Well, let's have some more discussion then please. Perhaps you could start by explaining why the vote on Deer? Seems to me we're way out of RVS so you must have some reason for the vote. I think I'm gonna go re-re-read in a minute.

On top of this, I stopped a page 3 lynch (L-1), which I happened to start by random voting, and everyone band wagoning this poor guy. I opted out and got everyone else to do so too, saying it was ridiculous. I ended up being page 12 lynched, accused of bussing. Neither of us were scum.

Just as a matter of interest, was this all Day 1 in that game? Also, what would say is the average page range for Day 1? I have been reading a number of newbie games and they seem to vary from page 3 lynch right to page 15.

At a guess I would say that 8-9 pages should, dependent on decent discussion, should be enough to out the scum and get a decent result.

[Mr Finch]

Sorry for the double post.

Ya know, having done a re-read, it seems to me that Jee and Deer could be scumbuddies. The two votes on RPG (for the wagon), the quick follow unvotes, post 55 & 56 with the pair of them defending their unvotes from the wagon with Deer using Jee's reason and yet there's no direct interaction, almost as if they are trying to distance themselves from each other.

@Ellibereth - apologies for the confusion with that attempted explanation, I think that others have explained it far more simply and better than I so I'll leave it there if that's ok.

As for the questions:

1. As I said, I played a couple of games on here a couple of years ago but nothing since.
2. Role? I don't know. I haven't played all the roles yet!
3. Activity? Far more than I should be! Most lunchtimes at work recently, when I get home from work before going out and checking in before I go to bed (don't forget I am running on GMT!). Have been reading 6 different games in the last couple of days, all Newbie games.

[Mr Finch]

Well then that makes no sense. Seriously, there seems to be nothing I can do that you will not call scummy. I place a random vote, that's "planting seeds in the town's mind." I try to defend myself against what I thought was an accusation from Mr. Finch, then "oh, that's overdefending." I try to clear up a misquotation, that's "buddying." Are you going to call this "overdefending?" Because that's honestly bullshit. I haven't had much experience with these forum mafia games, but I was acting as a normal human being would act in the situations I was put under. Your illogical reasons are why I'm voting you right now.

Vote: jee

This post Deer?

So, now you're distancing from your scumbuddy by voting for him?

[Mr Finch]

NO! Can you guys learn how to read and understand what I'm talking about! The post I was referencing was the one where I said

I don't want to go all OMGUS so I'll keep myself unvoted for now. But I feel that your logic & reasoning is pretty flimsy.

In regards to YOU!

And like I said, there is really nothing I can do. I'm not distancing myself or bussing or what have you, I really think jee is scum.

See, if you had quoted that in the first place then it would have saved much confusion. As for the OMGUS you mentioned, I only suggested that you and Jee are scumbuddies. What would you have done for OMGUS? Voted me? Meh.

You're right, my reasoning was pretty flimsy, but after the initial bandwagon conversation finished I could see the thread dying. Therefore I posted that to get reactions and create more discussion. And it worked.

You'll note that I didn't FoS either of you. However, with your reactions I am fairly happy now that you are pro-town. I would like to hear more from Jee and my (initial) FoS on Elli still stands as I am still not sure of him.

By my (inexpert) count I believe that we have both Jee and Elli with 3 votes on them right?

[Mr Finch]

EBWOP

- Apologies, I missed DLA's unvote on Elli to vote on Jee.

[Mr Finch]

Elli - I didn't say the thread was dying. I said that I could see it dying. Badly phrased maybe but I couldn't see an easy way to move forward. I went back and did the re-read and posted what I admit was a flimsy argument in an attempt to keep the game moving.

I am fairly happy as the defence that Deer is, to me (and in comparison to other games I have read recently) not over defensive. He's just posting decent reasons. Please note that "fairly happy" does not mean I am not still suspicious.

Right now I would like to hear (as I said) more from Jee before I post too much more.

For info. I have been sent on a technical course to London from Sunday to Friday 22- 27 Nov. I hope to be able to get regular access while I am away but may only be able to get on once every 24 - 36 hours. My apologies!

[/i]

[Mr Finch]

Just a quick scan of posts for anything that really stands out and apart from one post Jee has only posted one liners, and even a single word in one post.

Does this scream active lurking? it does to me.

NOT game related: Jee - Chelsea??? Definitely scummy!!

You're already at L-2, I will quite happily put you at L-1 or even lynch unless you give me a good reason not to. I also have a pretty good feeling who I want to go after as your scumbuddy, but more of that later.

[Mr Finch]

Stop avoiding the question. You've said I'm suspicious, now man up and explain yourself, with quotes.

Because you seem to be against everything. I'm explaining no further.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Do the rest of you really not see how hypocritical it is that DarkLight hounded me to explain something I already had, demanded quotes, and then refuses to explain why he thinks I'm one of the most suspicious people here?

What I see:

1 You are aggressive in your posts. Whether this is on purpose or not, I don't know.
2. I have no meta on either of you.
3. Hypocritical? Is it bad of me to say that (even after being alive for 37 years) I don't understand this word well enough to agree or disagree?

For my opinion? I don't think you are scummy (Sensfan) but I could be proven wrong. I also don't know what the hell he (DLA) is playing at but I don't like that he won't explain himself and one word posts like "naturally" and the quote you quoted above gets right up my nose. Not exactly pro-town attitude is it.

@jee - Do you read the thread? I posted that access would be limited for me back in post 100.

booo i guess i'll come back to it in a few days.

You're kidding right? Please tell me you're not serious. Just 'cos Elli's away doesn't mean you can't offer opinions on other people. Do you still feel that Deer is scum? Are YOU bussing?

What about the "banter" between Sensfan and DLa?

Arthur: Please, ask some questions, get some answers, get involved! I feel like you're active lurking at the moment.

[Mr Finch]

1. I'm a very aggressive player, that's just how I am. Not indicative of alignment.
2. The onyl relevant meta is that in every single game (3? 4?) I have played with DLA, he has been convinced I am Scum, and tunnelled on me pretty much to the exclusion of anyone else. Every time I've been Town.
3. He is implying I'm scummy for not doing something, then refuses to do that thing himself.

1. Not necessarily a bad thing.
2. Well, 4 games and you've been Town, you've got to turn up scum sometime!
3. Thanks. So, following on from that you're suggesting it makes him scummy too? No FoS or vote for him - are you just pissed about the way he's treating you? I Need to create a favourite to an online dictionary I think!

[Mr Finch]

1. Agreed. Some people are loud, some are quiet. Some are cautious, some are aggressive. As long as they are playing to help the Town, don't let that colour your judgement of them.
2. That's the Gambiter's Fallacy you've got going there. I have the same chance as being Town in this game, as in every other game.
3. I do think he's scummy, very much so. I also think that Elli made a slip that indentifies her as sure, Scum, though, so my vote stays there for the time being. I don't bother with FoS.

DLA, that's not going to fly. Why would I let you get away with waiting until the post-game to explain something? What if I had told you to wait until post-game to hear about my reasoning for Elli being Scum?

1. I don't intend to. I have read a few other games (not with other players from this game in) and can see that, really, it doesn't make too much difference.
2. Yup. I knew that even before I posted it. Hence the smiley.
3. I need to re-read.

DLA - I don't like that either.

[Mr Finch]

Do you read the thread? It wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Elli.... which I quoted right before I said it.

Yes, I read and re-read and re-reread the thread. And if Elli is going to be away for two or three days, what was the point of saying it? There wasn't any.

I can offer opinions, I was actually just about to post something to someone..which will be later in this post.

I haven't talked enough to Deer, like i said, he kind of disappeared. Why does everyone seem to think someone is bussing right when they accuse someone....

Did I say I thought you were bussing? No. I asked if you were. It was a straight yes or no answer question.

Not talked enough? It's hardly surprising when all you can do is make posts like "fensesitting" (SIC) rather than make a decent statement.

I believe that you are active lurking and not offering anything pro-town, so I am not sitting on the fence:

Vote: Jee

Would be great to hear from Kami-Sama who has (I think) posted nothing since last Friday.

[Mr Finch]

MOD: My vote's on Jee, not Deer. Also, can we get a prod on Kami please?

[Mr Finch]

MOD: My vote's on Jee, not Deer. Also, can we get a prod on Kami please?

Ah, bugger. Ignore the first bit of that, I just realised that I didn't unvote.

So:

Unvote

Vote: Jee

[Mr Finch]

I have no idea where to go with this, I need to re-read the last couple of pages. I will be back later.

I am not 100% convinced that DLA is Scum, but I will happily stand corrected.

[Mr Finch]

Okay, 100% is too much.

I have re-read and the players that are standing out for me are DLA and Elli. I have hassled Jee for most of the day and the defence he has come back with, I am satisfied at the moment that he's town.

DLA's "last plea" was nothing more than "oh, I'm town" and then a list of the vote patterns. Not much of a defence is it?

DLA seems to be conveniently ignoring that Deer already explained the reason for the vote in post 158 while Elli gave a sort-of explanation in 166.

Personally I am not sure right now that Elli is scum. I am convinced that DLA is and Deer or Elli is the scumbuddy.

I have ummed and ahhed for the last 90 minutes over this but I think it's the right move.

Vote DarkLightA

[Mr Finch]

It then took me a preview to be sure before I hammered. Aargh! It's done now - never done it before!

[Mr Finch]

Bugger. Sleep well gents.

And so we're back with a new day. Sensfan said in a previous post that he plays mostly by gut.

I'm going to do exactly the same thing right now and in my very first post I am going to get straight back on Jee. Why?

I think we have to look at the night action(s), and our mislynch of DLA. Yes, I am as guilty as everyone else that voted for him as I did drop the hammer.

However, look at Jee's voting pattern, a couple of jumps and then his vote was on Arthur and it never moved, even during the DLA hammer. I'm not saying it should have done as he specifically posted that he thought that DLA was playing more toward town than scum. This could just be his scum knowledge trying to steer towards Arthur.

My other candidate right now is SensFan. He started on DLA (admittedly DLA did not help himself at all) and never let up until he got what he wanted when we lynched a townie.

DLA's insistence that Deer and Elli are scumbuddies does strike right to me right now but I am happy to be proven wrong. We absolutely need to lynch Scum today.

Last thing for now is that unfortunately right now we have no information on Doc, Cop or Roleblocker until someone claims.

[Mr Finch]

What else is there? He made an obvious joke, I responded in kind. It was quite clearly not intended as serious by either of us.

QFT.

[Mr Finch]

Prodded and responding. I am reading regularly but right now have little to say.

[Mr Finch]

Having read and re-read this game I have realised that my play so far has sucked. I apologise.

From what I have seen on my re-read, SensFan is tunelling. Exactly as Jee states it's a word. Let it go. There's now been 7 pages of posts with you going on about it.

Now, I looked back at the very first page where Sens OMGUS RVS'd (supposedly) for DLA and DLA ended up dead.

My job is to make sure you guys don't get hung up on trivial details like that. It had nothing to do with defending Eli in specific, more just pointing out why the whole logic of attacking Eli is wrong.

Hello, Kettle, this is pot calling...

So, as people seem to be so fond of saying, I am playing a gut feeling -

Vote: Sensfan

[Mr Finch]

Sorry, this has bugged me the whole game and I am surprised that Elli hasn't corrected it already:

I know it looks like nothing to you guys, but trust me. I've played in countless Newb Games, and I know a slip when I see one. I'm 99% positive

He's

Scum.

Of course this assumes that Elli really does have a winky and isn't lying scum!

Back to the game, that's what you said (in more words) about DLA and he flipped town.

Ok, it might be a scumtell, but from what I have seen so far it's not a huge tell for someone that has mostly been said to have a pro-town attitude. We can't discount the theory that he may be scum as there's two dead townies and no dead scum.

[Mr Finch]

Elli has dropped a slip, and from my experience playing with countless Newbs, I know a slip when I see one.

As our resident IC I will have to bow to your "slip knowledge". I don't necessarily agree with it but accept it.

I have to admit that with the absolute lack of posting from all of us, I have absolutely no idea to go with suspicions of scum.

The following is for my benefit as much as anything! (re-read/scan from start of day 2

Jee - I am fairly happy that he's pro town. Has stood up to my pathetic attempts at stirring him up and has given reasonable answers. This post quote:

You make it seem like you were attacking Elli, and Elli needed to defend him/her self or you were gonna threaten a vote.

Attacking Deer or defending Elli?

Deer - Lots of questioning of others without answering himself. Avoiding? Lurking? Finals?

Kami/Tuber - two posts so far from Tuber, not a damned thing to go on. Suspecting Deer as scum right now?

Elli - A couple of people believe scum (Sens and Deer) with some questioning from Jee. Seems to have gone to single line posts instead of explained discussion.

RPG - Null tell so far. May be pro-town. Gut feeling says suspecting Sens, though may be purely hypothetical. Hasn't posted since Monday when he said he'd re-read and would be back later. Maybe work got in the way again. may be lurking.

Sens - most vocal, led the charge on DLA and now Elli.

Finch - Definitely pro-town - trying hard to participate!

[Mr Finch]

quick (naughty)post before work starts:

1. Jee - Yeah, I know about quoting and usually get it right, apologies! I agree, we can't go for a potential mislynch with just Elli's "slip".

in reference to me voting for Deer without explination. He thought I was trying to attack a teammate in order to

distance

myself from him, and thats how he called it.

I think you used the right word here (bolded). However, I think there's a fairly thin line between distancing and bussing. I am not 100% on the terms and this is my interpretation:

Distancing

- disagreeing strongly with a potential scum partner to make you seem town when the other player is seen to be scum by other players.

Bussing

- outright attacking of the other player going as far as voting for them in an attempt to protect yourself.

@RPG - thanks for letting us know, I hope things pick up for you and you have a great festive season.

[Mr Finch]

Welcome! Good luck! Scum!

[Mr Finch]

I'm sorry, relationship between me, Elli and Sens? What relationship?

You think Elli is scum, I think Sens is scum and I am town.

There can't be a relationship as there are only two scum in this game.

[Mr Finch]

Unvote

I have done a re-read on RPG/TNM and can't find what Elli suggests is scummy. I don't believe that what he posted is truly scummy behaviour.

As was already pointed out by Sens long days are good for town and I am happy after my re-read that he's pro-town right now.

I don't like Elli's postings (I will post more when I'm not sneaking in a post from work) but am a little nervous of mislynching as it puts us at a very hard position (unless scum choose to not NK which is just dumb in my opinion).

FWIW my scumread right now is Elli and Deer.

[Mr Finch]

This whole post really confused me.

1. You unvote a vote that was on SensFan, without reason
2. You follow it up by saying TNM is cleared in your mind.

This threw me off because you just unvoted. You know your vote was on SensFan right? And you said nothing about SensFan in this whole post, the person you just unvoted.

No, you're right, I didn't explain the unvote. Why do I need a reason to UNvote? Did you notice the last line? my scumread right now is Elli and Deer. Why would I have a vote on someone who is not one of my two suspects?

2. I didn't say that. You are putting words in my mouth. Again, read the last line. My scumread right now is Elli and Deer. I could still be wrong and it doesn't mean that TNM is town. He could be scum, I just can't can't see the logic.

@Elli - you cannot compare RPG's "stating the obvious" posts with TNM's vote switch. Although they had the same role, they are different players with their own ways of playing. TNM did his read and placed his vote.

Know what I would really like? Some decent posting from the other FIVE players in this game. I have been prodded twice in this game for non-posting but we're getting so little conversation that it's really hard to make intelligent conversation.

If we go round and round like this much more then Elli, me and Jee are all gonna get lynched by each other! Longer days are great but only if there's posts of substance to go with. I really get the feeling that we're gonna hit a deadline lynch.

[quote="Elli]And he won't for me just because of some WIFOM[/quote]

Huh???

[Mr Finch]

Seems I didn't miss much. Elli's still Scum, guys.

And it's posts like this that mean you didn't miss much. I do believe you are IC. Does this not mean that you should be setting a good example and promoting conversation rather than lurking?

[Mr Finch]

More useless discussion is the exact opposite of what we need right now. Elli is Scum. He dropped a Scum slip; it doesn't get any easier than this.

I agree, but currently Elli, Jee TNM and myself are going round in circles because people like you are not promoting discussion.

I get what you're saying. You think Elli is scum. He dropped one slip.

What about the scum player? You?

@jee - thanks for the information.

[Mr Finch]

EBWOP: What about the other scum player? You?

I am not voting for anyone right now. I want to see others reaction to Elli's claim.

[Mr Finch]

My thoughts on the claim:

1. It hasn't been counterclaimed. I am reluctant to lynch a claimed cop with no decent evidence.

2. In newbie 843 Tubby216 played exactly the same way (before I replaced) as Sens has been in this game. Tubby/I played the cop in that game. As I write this Sens hasn't posted counterclaiming Elli's Cop Call.

3. I don't think that lynching Jee in TNM's scenario is a good idea. If Jee flips town then we're at Lylo. NK and it's game over. That's not a good plan to me. Or have I done my counting wrong? EIther way, I don't like it.

I want to hear from Sens before I vote and I WILL vote before deadline.

@Nacho - I didn't miss it at all. I had the same suspicion and I voted that way at the beginning of the day. I changed my mind slightly and unvoted Sens. Doesn't mean he's off my radar.

With the latest development, my preferred lynch for today is SensFan or Elli.

[Mr Finch]

Well, cats and pigeons spring to mind. TBH, that was exactly what I was expecting Sens to say. Potential for huge WIFOM here though...

Who's the scubuddy in your opinion then Sens?

By an unofficial vote count (me reading and making a note from Mod's last count) Elli's at 1 vote, Deer at 2.

[Mr Finch]

EBWOP: I am inclined (considering my last post reference newbie 843) to go with Sens as cop right now and vote for Elli. No rush yet though, Deadline's not until Thursday.

Ooh! Just realised something else. It's said (in this game I think!) Town prefer longer days:

Guys, we hit deadline in less a week btw.

Hmm...

[Mr Finch]

So, is Elli at L1? I kinda lost count.

[Mr Finch]

So, is Elli at L1? I kinda lost count.

Nah, i got lynched.
Happy scumday btw.

Fair enough.

Thanks!

Jee - I believe this is called twilight (until the Mod posts) and then the thread gets locked when it's night.

[Mr Finch]

First up, I hope everyone had a great holiday!

Vote: Mr. Finch

Mr. Finch, can you guess why my vote's on you right now?

Probably because I didn't vote. Now, before I went to vote I asked if it was L-1 on Elli. He said he'd been lynched and I couldn't see the point of voting when there was already a lynch. It wasn't until we went to night that I realised it would make me look scummy. You're wrong though.

@Jee: You're misreading what I wrote. At the time (as I noted) there was one vote on Elli. I didn't see any need to quick vote or lynch as there were still three days to the deadline. I was quite happy for discussion to go on for a bit to see if we could out the other scum.

Your underlined question was (and still is) a perfectly valid and innocent question to see who Sens thought the other scum was.

Where in my post 333 does it say I don't want to vote? I was watching the thread and would have happily voted for Elli's lynch if he hadn't already been hammered.

At the moment we have 1 scum left. Now, from what I picked up in Newbie 843, if there is a roleblocker scum alive then their night action can only be roleblock or lynch, not both.

As we have no NK then my guess would be that the scum roleblocked Sens. We won't know until Sens returns.

This of course assumes that we also have a Doc.

[Mr Finch]

I'd like to know too. I have re-read the whole thread and can't see what I am supposed to be guessing at.

You're still wrong though.

[Mr Finch]

Nope. Any other guesses, Finchy? Let's put some effort into this guess instead of just looking at jee's case on you...

I still can't see it. I realise that we're all waiting for Sensfan, but in the meantime can you give me a hint so I might have a guess?

[Mr Finch]

I look forward to hearing it!

[Mr Finch]

Guys

I am sorry to do this to you but things have hit the fan at home and I don't have the ability to continue with the game.

Please accept my humble apologies, I know this will adversely affect the game, but I hope not

too

much.

Thanks for letting me play and good luck to all!