888: X-COM TFTD Mafia: Over!

[Spencer Remmington]

/Yo

[Spencer Remmington]

The idea is that just because you claim to vote for that reason doesn't mean its all there was to it. There are underlying decisions that scum have to make. ie: Whether to vote for each other or not. When you remove all decision making it removes the point of the RVS. How do you expect the game to move forward if everyone only random voted?

By having someone pick something that's not there and start an argument about it, like in every game.

[Spencer Remmington]

A scummy random stage vote you say? And when all the votes are done randomly, with dice, in thread, which vote would that be? I think you just prove my point for me.

Vote: Stuart Whyte

for ignoring my post and the first half of the bolded part in the quote this is referencing. And for being conceited about it.

I forgot to random vote...

[Spencer Remmington]

To answer Ed's Question: I'd think you were a complete idiot if you called me scum for not voting you. If you do want me to vote you, you would have to present a decent argument for why voting for you would be pro-town. And I'd love to hear it too, since there's only one really good answer for that.

[Spencer Remmington]

Whyte Smells like serious scum. He pushed crap logic in an argument a back on page two. Sure, the argument went nowhere, but that's only because people didn't take it anywhere.

The whole "Smells like scum" bit does nothing to convince me that he should not be voted for right now.

[Spencer Remmington]

Please prove that my vote is baseless.

Burden of proof fallacy. This is crap logic. The burden of proof falls onto you, anyway, since it's your vote. Proof to us that it's not baseless.

I stand by everything I've said, if you think something I've said was crap logic then you are wrong.

This isn't even logic. This is just childish argument. I even have proof with me:

A scummy random stage vote you say? And when all the votes are done randomly, with dice, in thread, which vote would that be? I think you just prove my point for me.

You said this, in response to this:

[...] eventually someone would gain the courage to put a serious vote up and end the RVS on someone that put down a scummy RVS.

You bolded the entire quoted part. He said, that eventually someone will either put down a serious or a scummy random vote, and you shot it down by saying if everyone "random" votes, there is technically no Scummy random vote. Not only did that only undermine half of what he said, but it's really just another childish "No it isn't" argument in disguise.

your play so far this game is basically just eveyrone arguing with you chiming in and saying "No it isn't. Nu-uhh!" Every once in a while.

people who choose not to, or in your case

refuse

to provide reasoning are scum AND anti-town. Please die.

Unvote, CONFIRM vote: Stuart Whyte

[Spencer Remmington]

Your level of incompetence blows my mind. I like all the ad homms btw, nice touch.

Ad hominid only counts if I directly insult you. Like, for example, if I were to say you are mind blowingly incompetent.

And for the record its providing reasoning with votes that is anti-town

You mean allowing my opinion on others to be judged by other people to be fair or not? So that later, people are able to see how I felt about the townie that was bandwagoned? And then judge if I had ulterior motives to whatever I said about them or was honest or not?

It's Anti-Town to Provide reasoning, so then the most pro-town action is to of course vote for whoever we feel like and then not discuss anything until we're force to deadline lynch someone? Or just wait until Deadline passes over us and we have no lynch? Or should we just wait for scum to all bandwagon on someone and then have everyone follow, netting more and more mislynches as everyone stays equally scummy due to the inability to analyze the wagons?

Or should we just have a power role or whoever is the closest confirmed townie we could get on day one claim and just have him roll the dice repeatedly to decide the agreed lynch order? Forget arguments, and all that bullcrap, just leave everything to random chance. I mean, it's not like town's chances of hitting scum are explicitly defined as

Less than 50%

due to game rules.

I'd like to see your justification for why it is anti-town. I'd like to, but I'd certain you'd be content enough just being as vague as humanly possible in a game where the details matter.

Moving on...

Please explain how it doesn't undermine the entire part I bolded, also please explain how its a "no you" argument.

His argument is that a people will either put out a serious vote on someone, or put out a scummy vote on someone during the random stage. Your argument is that if it's completely random, there is no such thing as a scummy vote. This fails to take into account that not everyone uses a dice roll, that scum are able to have game related reason for who they vote (whether to start a bandwagon, to not draw attention, etc.), AND that fact that even if there is no scummy random vote, no one in the game will ever go "Okay, this is going nowhere, I'm voting player X because I think his vote might have scummy intent behind it." It fails to undermine it simply because you present a theory that does not match you to reality at all.

Also, i don't really see where in that post there is a reason, or at least anything with backing evidence.

The only reason you would be worried about someone refuting your points is if the person you are voting for is town. And even then, if you are town, wouldn't you want them to enlighten you and refute your accusations so you don't mislynch?

This.
Really, there's no pro-town logic behind hiding your reason to vote.

Not going to admit my logic is bad, but even if it were bad logic isn't a scum tell, its an idoit tell.

Which is good enough reason to not want you in the case of lylo.

I have no intention of revealing why.

Can you at the very least tell us why you have no intention of telling us?

Or explaining votes is anti-town.

Oh, okay then. Can you tell us why explaining votes is anti-town?

Me not wanting to have my points refuted has very little to do with not stating reasons. I've never made any intentional claims about them being the reason.

Of course not. If you admitted it, you'd be admitting that you were scum. This leads be back to the above question of why it's anti-town.

I trust the town.

The town doesn't trust you. If this is going to work out, we need to be able to work together and not keep secret from each other.

[Spencer Remmington]

Yes, English is my first language. Go ahead and tell me in detail where exactly I'm wrong. I've really been wanting to hear what you think anyway, so please, say something useful.

let me stop you right here. That wasn't his argument.

Then what was his argument? You didn't even provide an alternative interpretation of his argument, you just said "No it isn't."

I wasn't saying everyone would actually use a random vote, I was using it as a thought experiment to show why random votes are anti town.

This still makes it a hypothetical that's removed from reality. I went back and read the quote in full.

-He said that unless everyone decide before the game to make it completely random, there would be a scummy vote, or a serious vote.
-You said that if everyone decided before the game that they would only use a random vote, then there would be no scummy or serious vote.

It fails to undermine it because it's premised on a very unlikely hypothetical.

If you lynch me now then that is 1 more mislynch = it wouldn't be lylo but simply already lost.

Except this assumes both that you're town and that lynching you doesn't allow us to find scum any sooner than lynching anybody else. And that's not even considering that apparent presupposition that you'd even make it to lylo in the first place.

So you admit I'm town then?

I never said you were town. I just said no one trusts you because you try to avoid saying things that would let us judge you.

I'd like to hear more from Leon about what he thinks on the people on the bandwagon if he thinks there's scum gunning after Stuart. It's a fairly easy wagon to jump on, I'll admit, but I don't like how he completely waffled in 100.

[Spencer Remmington]

Edward got replaced... Damn, I would have liked an explanation for what he said.

Notes On Jester: Always always always assume there are none. Unless the mod specifically says there could be.

Other than you smell like town and Emile smells like scum, what are these many reasons you speak of?

You forgot that I'm awesome as well.

I'm sure he didn't forget.

I don't think I can properly communicate with you. I don't know what else to say. Perhaps its my english thats flawed, but we aren't speaking the same language.

"You don't know what else to say?" Seriously? Did you, you know, try refuting my arguments?

You're being Vague.
You're making excuses.
You're doing your god honest best to not help the town.
Getting you to say something should not be as hard as pulling teeth.

I don't like your need to hold on to that, but I also don't think my reasons are blatantly bullshit so I'll agree to those terms. But I still want everyone to chime in before I say anything.

I personally think this is all non-sense. Why are you not willing to tell us your reason for voting unless we all agree beforehand to say you're town just for providing it?

I'm skeptical on the bulletproof claim. Correct bulletproof play is to be as pro-town as possible, which he's obviously not in my eyes.

[Spencer Remmington]

Fine, I promise not to let the validity of your reasoning have any more effect on whether I believe you are town or not any more than it already may have had.

Of course, by this point, it just means that I'm not going to unvote you for it if it is a somehow a good reason.

This game is about finding scum. The best defense any one person can possibly have is "This person is scum because of this, this, and that." because then people will look at those reasons and see if they're good or not. This includes valuating both validity and sincereness. Even if you were confirms town, even if you were being sincere, if it's not valid, then there's no reason to actually follow that path.

So, yes, I'll promise to try and judge your sincerity, but do realize that's a very hard process. And I won't argue with you about whether it's valid or not, but do realize that by this point moving my vote to somebody else will require a lot more than just if I think you really mean what you say.

[Spencer Remmington]

Yeah, I had plans to come back and post more after taking my shower. I'll do so in a bit.

I'd like to hear more from Leon about what he thinks on the people on the bandwagon if he thinks there's scum gunning after Stuart. It's a fairly easy wagon to jump on, I'll admit, but I don't like how he completely waffled in 100.

It would be really great if you responded to this question. Or anything.

Unvote, Vote: Leon

.

It should be blatantly obvious by now that saying anything directed towards Whyte will provide nothing for the town to work with. I still would like him dead, but if there's any plan for salvaging day one it in ignoring him completely.

[Spencer Remmington]

Edit: "It will be in ignoring him"

[Spencer Remmington]

Mod: Can we say the exact reason why we're going to be V/LA and exactly how long we'll be gone? Or is that too meta?

Lynchproof is both speculation, and confirmed not part of his role. Stop talking about it.

On Spencer's question to Leon: it is a silly question, sorry but I have to say it. On a late day 1 wagon there can easily be scumpeople even if the target is scum.

How does that make it a silly question? All it means is that if Whyte flips scum, there is still a chance Leon's answer could be right anyway.

If you take a look at Leon's voting history, he has been playing it safe. Voting only when he's certain, never less. He even unvoted when the focus moved to Whyte, but never bothered to vote anyone else and instead distanced himself from the Whyte Wagon.

The question is meant to pick up from something he said and get him to target some people.

[Spencer Remmington]

1) no-one can be lynch proof it undermines the whole reason of lynching

Lynchproof is both speculation, and confirmed not part of his role. Stop talking about it.

Seriously. Stop talking about it.

[Spencer Remmington]

the topic of his claim has been old and stupid since two pages ago. Keep up, boy.

The problem with the Bandwagon on Whyte is that anyone can jump on it with little to no repercussions. yes, there are scum on the wagon, but at this point it's impossible to tell the differences between town and scum on there. Lynching him would be almost as anti-town as letting him live and lynching someone else.

[Spencer Remmington]

How can we possibly fit in a policy lynch, all of these lurker lynches, and still have enough time for the scum that are actually playing the game?

I again get the impressoin that you know I'm town.

The more I think about the case against you, the more likely I think it is you are town. The case at large is that you're choosing to play a way that is anti-town and will obviously get you lynched easily.

You would probably follow this path as scum as well, but in all honesty, you've already done more in giving your opinion than other people have, which makes you more townie than them. Seriously, I ask one person one simple question and he goes indefinitely V/LA. And that's not even counting the people refusing to look in any direction but yours.

My main suspects based on the wagon are Igor and Gerhard. Igor for trying to push an invalid point and backtracking - obviously trying to push the lynch anyway he can. Gerhard's "Taking my own advice" thing seems a bit forced as well.

[Spencer Remmington]

Otto's won my vote tomorrow.

[Spencer Remmington]

There are lots of reasons why there was only one kill last night. Many of which include there being only one kill. Discussing this only helps scum for two reasons:
1. It prevents/slows scumhunting
2. It allows scum to figure out what happened last night while town is still left in the dust.

I feel awesome for pinging Gerhard.

Please don't.

Question for Otto: Does being a bulletproof have anything to do with why you hammered Whyte?
Note: Please ignore Claude's last post.

Emile's reaction to Stuart's vote is definitely not town knowing that Stuart was town.

Vote: Emile Buchard

[Spencer Remmington]

I leave for a few days and someone goes and blows up the lab AGAIN.

My vote on Emile largely consisted of him not doing or saying anything helpful so far in the game, and due to because somewhere in the back of my mind, Otto's vote for Whyte made enough sense considering the obvious answer to the question I asked him.

Btw, I'm writting this as I catch up, so this is still a relevant answer.

1) please, explain why discussing the night dynamics would help scum? If there are no sk, there was either a bus driving action or scum deliberately eliminated on teammate. They very likely already spotted what happened and we should assume that they know more than us.

This is exactly why it helps scum. By discussing it, we give possible solutions for them to figure out why their kill was blocked, or why Gerhard was killed, and this leads to the mafia lands on possibilities where they can take a pick at what happened, and shoot someone who seems to have known what happened, possibly killing our town busdriver or Doctor or something like that.

2) what do you mean by "town knowing that Stuart was town"?

You misread, it's more like "Knowing he is town, this doesn't look like a town reaction." I apologize for the confusion.

Seeing Otto claim hit the night he revealed himself is just weird. I don't know what this means. Also, for future reference, if you try to do something your role says you can't do, and the mod responds with flavor explaining that you failed, don't bring it up in the topic. That just confuses everybody.

*catches up to Otto's real claim* Okay, so that's it. This explains everything town needs to know - We have a Mafia and a Cult. A Cult member was killed last night.

Bonus other possible answers: We have a cult and a Serial killer/one person mafia.

[Spencer Remmington]

I apologize to everyone for dropping off. Something unexpected came up, and I don't think I'll be able to take this game head on for a while yet. Don't worry, though, it's nothing too horrifying. I am requesting a replacement, though.

Again, I'm sorry.

[Spencer Remmington]

I am here now! And the first thing I'd like to do is KILL OUR MOD for picking THIS layout. What the hell malt?

Unvote, Vote malt

That said, I'll probably read the game tomorrow and find the scum for you.

[Spencer Remmington]

Ok so I'm tired and it just might be the tiredness talking but this might be a really stupid question. Of which layout are you speaking of?

Also, we really need some more activity around here. It was more then 24 hrs since my last post and only Spencer has talked since then.

I mean the MafTyger layout. I'd change it but it's actually helping me know which account I'm logged into.

That said, I'll start my read.

[Spencer Remmington]

Wait, you're telling me I had THREE DAYS to do an analysis before deadline hit? Dammit. Honestly I got bored by about page 4 and didn't pick it back up. I'll try to get it done before the start of D4. Sorry about all the delays, it's been a little hectic.

[Spencer Remmington]

I've been busy lately. I apologize for putting off my catch up post for so long. It's been difficult to really get into this game, but...I'm pretty sure I'm free tomorrow as I can't think of anything that I HAVE to do tomorrow. So, I'll be able to dedicate an hour or so to this game catching up and catching scum...

Um...though honestly I'm a little less confident in my scumhunting reading my notes before Emile's flip...

[Spencer Remmington]

DONE YOU DAMNED VULTURES!

Unvote, Vote Jaime

FoS Claude

FoS Leon

Notes in next post. Why is Jaime not dead yet?

[Spencer Remmington]

PART ONE!

Alright, so, you all are absolutely going to hate me. Because it's time for...A WALL POST!

Post 13: Tracey starts off the scuminess by liking Twilight. AT ALL. I apologize if future commentary on Tracey is biased for this.

Post 38 and 39: Edward:

Post 42: Emile: How about Twilight in general haters?

Post 44: Gerhard: Ok, seriously? You know, I'm glad you flipped non town. Because this was a TERRIBLE post.

Post 47: I love you Spencer. And yes, I'm aware this is I.

Post 49: Leon: While there are "reasons", RVS votes still don't have SERIOUS reasons. You generally can't analyze RVS on it's own and find scum, though in rare cases it CAN aid you in finding scum combined with other information.

Post 54: Leon: With that clarification, I'd like to ask what your point is.

Post 56: Claude pretty much sums up my opinion.

Post 58: Igor: The difference between your post and Emile's, however, is Emile offered an

opinion

in his post. You...um...didn't.

Post 59: Jaime: See post 58.

Post 64: Andrew: The thing is, the way I read it was that it was a hypothetical. I still hope to read clarification.

Post 67: Leon: Is metafishing a scumtell? If so, why? If not, why the hell are you voting Gerhard over it?

Post 69: Emile: Quit saying what I'm thinking. It makes it hard to look like I'm actually thinking. Leaning town on Emile.

Post 71: Stuart: What the hell? You are voting quite possibly the most protown person in this clusterfuck. Explain yourself!

Post 74: Stuart: No. Not going to pass

Unvote, Vote Stuart White

Post 75: Igor: Yeah, not gonna work either. As I said, is metafishing SCUMMY, or is it just against the spirit of the game? Vote accordingly. As for the latter, admitted hypocrisy doesn't make it ok.

Post 78: Jaime: Why aren't you voting Stuart? You called him out pretty well.

Note: Everything from this point on is after Emile's and Igor's flips. Reading some of the things I've said earlier do not make me feel confident in my scumhuntery...

Also of note is that Stuart was right. Course, he's dead. Maybe I should have remained blissfully unaware of the dead player list.

Post 83: Jaime: Given both Stuart and Emile's flip, this suddenly looks a lot worse. The saving grace is the fact I agreed with you at the time. Regardless, I have my eye on you.

Post 87: Jaime: This...rubs me the wrong way. Then again, I'm treating Stuart as chamber at this point.

Post 93: Claude: This post bespeaks a calm wisdom that came to pass. Good points for you.

Post 95: Jaime: Hey, how about take your previous posts as a null tell, since in the end I have to agree treating Stuart as he has been makes sense. And then consider this one scummy as hell. Feels like "Even if he's town he needs to die, yay!"

Calling it now. Stuart is chamber or a chamber like player. That said I still agree with most of my previous incarnations post if I were there.

Post 98:: Tracey: Allow me to go out on a limb here.

Why

is not explaining your vote anti town? You haven't explained this, merely said with far too many words that "it just is". Fortunately, your post feels frustrated town.

Post 100:: Leon: This would have gotten you town points...if you had actively opposed his lynch. Regardless, well put. In retrospect and due to the power of hindsight, this was a good view on the situation.


Post 110: Tracey: This is a much better explanation ^-^.


By the way, I hope to see Stuart explaining why explaining reasoning for votes is anti town. It'd be a good theory read.

Post 118: Edward: thank you for confirming I was correct.

Post 120: Claude: Good catch! I completely missed that! More weight on the scales against Jaime.

Post 121: Stuart: Well, you're dead so you can't answer but at this point you probably should have posted that diatribe, risking a theory discussion. Tracey brought up some good points.

Post 125: Malt, general group: Oh DAMMIT. So now I have to remember Orski is Edward? Well, fine.

Post 126: Good posting Andrew. But I wish you had parked your vote to a new target.

Post 127: Bad posting Jaime. You start of with an "It just IS" attack for "not explaining votes is anti town", deny fishing despite the fact you pretty much were, and your condescending tone is terrible.

As of Post 133 Stuart HAS to be chamber.

I'm sorry about the speculation malt but he's already dead and I can't help it.

Post 160: Everyone: See!? This is why "Even if he's town blah blah lynch anyway" statements are SCUMMY! Just throwing that out there. Why the hell no one went after Emile for this BOGGLES me.

[Spencer Remmington]

PART TWO

Post 167: Everyone: This post is indeed WIFOM but could be very valuable. I want this to be remembered.

To point out what Emile has said compared to facts:
Stuart Scum = Stuart was town
Gerhard Town = Gerhard 3rd party (but Emile wouldn't know that)
Otto scum = Otto Town (Survivor now though)
Tracey town = Tracey Town
Igor scum = Igor Town
Leon Town = ???
Andrew Town = ???
Jaime Town = ???
Orski ??? = ???
Spencer Town = ??? (Town )
Claude Scum = ???

Ok, here's the thing. I would almost indict Claude based on this. I doubt that Emile would pick ALL townies and not lightly bus a scumbuddy. But, again, it's WIFOM. I will, however, look closer at Claude now, even though IIRC he's seemed rather townie to me.

Post 177: Jaime: Badposting. You basically say you believe he's a town bulletproof yet continue to vote him?

Honestly, I can't find much to comment on page 8 because it's mostly everyone against Stuart and all my opinions are colored by flips. As in anyone I want to call out is already dead or myself.

Post 197: Andrew: And I had high hopes for you. Well, granted, it's still good you aren't hastening to kill Stu.

Go Spencer when you call out Leon. That guy never DID elaborate. ++ scum points to Leon.

Post 216: Leon: Gonna put you back to "IGMEOY" then.

Honestly, it's a shame Tracey is dead and flipped. I would love to feel he's super town right now and eliminate a suspect.

As I continue reading I notice that, besides myself, it's mostly scum calling Stuart stupid, whereas town are trying to reason with him on some level. How...interesting for Jaime. Of course, opinions understandably sour as the posts go on.

PAGE 10, YAY! I'm less than halfway to done!

Ok, sorry, Igor was town and also was hardline on Stuart. I feel less confident in that tell now.

You know, I see why Igor would have been a wonderful lynch. I'm glad scum took care of him for us, but it boggles me why.

I am really liking my past self. They have a good point that as the wagon continues it's harder to pick alignment from it, but I think that earlier reasonings can be picked at a bit.

Post 247: Stuart: Yeesh, 2 out of 3 isn't bad, but I'm pretty sure I look bad for this now :S. (Yes, I'm assuming Gerhard was antitown)

Post 251: Jaime: terrible post. Why would Stuart's reasons make you unvote if Stu is so scummy? Further, I thought you believed his claim? Hmm...

Spencer is smart. Very smart. In Post 253, that pretty much matches my (admittedly hindsight ridden) views.

Tracey is also smart. Very smart. Why do all the smart players have to be dead or replaced?

Post 264: Claude: This bothers me. It feels like "Jaime is scum, but..." and going after Stuart due to it being the popular wagon. This is mitigated a bit by your explanation though. But I don't like the vibe I get from this post.

You know, if I hadn't seen Otto's flip, I'd have assumed he was scum for waltzing in and voting Stuart for pretty much no reason.

Wow indeed. HAMMERING him for no reason.

Igor is frustrating. His post right after the lynch acts like he knew Stu was town. I'd honestly be calling for his lynch if he weren't already dead.

Post 296: Jaime: It's a wikitell but who else sees gloating here?

Post 303:: Jaime: Oh, backtrack from Emile scum? And the fact you put Otto above him in the first place does not bode well. I somewhat agree on Andrew though.

Post 310: Claude: Not that it really helps since I know it's true, but I'd probably lean towards believing it at that time and also probably facepalm at what will likely lead to a modkill (then again, I know that happens too)

Huh, no modkill. Well, that's good.

Anyway, we get to a third party that looks like a cult.

Here's my opinon. I don't think malt would have 3:1 CULT LEADER: 8.

So, if my conjecture is correct, I think we only have one scum left (from the time I'm actually in, not from that page) However...I could be way off, as a fair amount of power has flipped already. Not sure what to think...it feels really hard to balance well.

Post 319: Jaime: I dislike this post a lot. You seem to want everyone to assume that Ger was mafia, not third party. This seems like a nice way to get people barking up the wrong tree.

Post 320: Leon: Good job. Could you post content now?

Post 321: Andrew: Wrong logic, but good conclusion. To the point where I think this clears you a lot. The attack on Emile does not make sense from a scum perspective, especially given how you explained it. Granted, I suppose you could be in cahoots with Jaime in acting like Ger was mafia, but...I get the feeling from your post that you really didn't know that.

Ok, I am leaning less towards the Ger mafia theory being indictive of false information.

Post 327: Claude: well reasoned. If Jaime is scum I am less likely to believe you are.

Post 331:: Claude: And this is the same reason I'd believe Otto's claim. Also, I like the Jaime vote ^-^.

Post 342:: Yeah, sure, cause a vig shooting Otto is a vig not shooting you, amirite?

I gotta admit Otto's claim became ridiculous at the "probe minds" thing, even if it was true.

Post 367: Leon: Oh hey, another terrible post. Seriously? Emile should have been caught for saying similar things.

And WHAT THE FUCK OTTO! I mean, SERIOUSLY. When I find out who you are, you are TOTALLY going on the blacklist (unless I really like you)

Post 378: Jaime: Ok, I take it back, there probably are three scum. Because I think you are confirming it. As well as the fact that Ger wasn't part of the mafia. I hope this post gets more attention.

Post 389: Jaime: NOTE THE FACT THAT HE IS STILL TRYING TO DEFEND THE GER-MAFIATE THEORY.

Yeah, I see no breadcrumbs of Terry's results. It's...not very happy making.

Post 404: Jaime: I CAN'T FIND THIS POST OH GOD I MEAN WHAT~
Ok, seriously, this post is nice. You aren't voting yet. Why aren't you voting either Leon or Emile?

You know, I'm really glad that Igor is dead. It's OBVIOUS that he was wrong about a lot of stuff and I likely would be voting him today if he weren't flipped town.

Post 415: Leon: This is hard to call. You've been scummy all game, yet you've called out known scum. It could be a rather well played bus or actually good scumhunting. I still have my eye on you.

Post 416: Jaime: This defense of Emile makes you look A LOT WORSE, even if I agree with Leon elaborating.

Post 418: Claude: Fence sit. Not one I like. But it pushes Emile, so slight points.

Post 419: Jaime: At this point, I...don't THINK you are scum with Leon, but I think you are with Emile.

Post 420: Leon: This pushes you into a more town territory IMO.

HOLY CRAP tl;dr from Edward! (though this post will be as well, in it's own way). Your end result is decent though.

Post 427: Jaime: Once again, the flips make you look bad. Edward was right on Emile, and you are discrediting him. I see a lot of simultanious defense and attack on a confirmed scum from you.

Post 428: Leon: Summarizes my thoughts on 427 quite well.

Post 429 and post 430: Jaime makes his vote scummier, and Leon calls it out quite properly.

Post 431: Claude: This feels like a cautious "Shit, gotta bus Emile" without pushing it too hard on the hope he can escape.


Post 435: Claude: This would be a good post if you weren't putting someone above a confirmed scum and my top scum pick. I think you are fitting in as a buddy quite nicely.

Post 439: Jaime: Why? It doesn't appear Leon is any less scummy to you. Why did you unvote?

Post 440: Edward: Or chamber! Don't forget chamber! And I somewhat agree with your arguments about not explaining votes. But part of it's charm is it's uniqueness. Alas, you assume Ger is mafia.

Post 443: Andrew: You are a wild card. At some points, you are obv town, and then you make a post like this. You say Emile has a good case on him. That he looks scummy and...then you vote Igor? What? Given Emile's flip, this looks BAD[/b][/size]

[Spencer Remmington]

PART THREE, FINAL PART

Post 444: Claude: This screws me up again. You would have to be bussing both Emile and Jaime at this point if I'm right. I'd bet more on Jaime than you though...

Post 452: Leon: This counterwagon erases the good feelings I had about you earlier. The fact it's forming on town against flipped scum REALLY makes the people on it look BAAAAD.

Post 454: Jaime: THIS, however, is an obv bus post.

Post 456: Claude: Is absolutely right. I...don't think Claude and Jaime can be scum together.

Post 458: Claude: Oh wait, take that back. You suddenly had to ruin it.

I'm starting to glaze over all the walls at this point. I'm sorry if I miss important thing from these posts on.

Page 20 isn't helping.

Edward seems town though, based on flips and arguments.

Post 492: Andrew: Gains a bit of town point back.

Post 493: Jaime: This is simultanious good and bad. It's a swing vote towards a scum...but it's also away from a dying wagon anyway, so it's not as strong a tell.

Post 502. Fuckwin.

Post 505: Claude: This feels like townie flexibility.

Post 507. MEANIE!

So far not much is changing my reads up to post 524...

Btw, at this point I want Jaime dead, and Leon or Claude is a good second. Leaning Leon right now, but given how much Claude makes me flip this could change.

Igor 523 has a point.

Post 538: Leon: Quite right. But he's an easy bus at this point.

Post 540: Edward: Swing vote is indeed noted but...the Igor wagon was already losing momentum.

Post 548: Jaime: Does anyone else read this as gloating? But, Igor is an obv kill at this point. He was a very close counter wagon to known scum. Scum wants him dead.

Post 550: Leon: Jaime needs to die. I am 100% certain he is scum at this point. Town doesn't post as he did.

Post 552: Andrew: Half right. But when someone is as obv scum as Jaime, save the no lynch.

Post 555: Edward: Glad we agree. However...I have to lean Claude at this point, despite my stance two pages ago.

Post 559: Leon: And then you pole vault in front of Claude. How is Edward backtracking? Further, what happened to Jaime or no lynch? And "Edward looks good"

Post 566: Claude: I must have missed your trap but if it catches Jaime, awesome. Vote him please.

Post 567: Leon: If this is true I'm sure I noted it. I'll reread these notes after I post them.

Post 571: Claude: When my predecessor was around, they posted a LOT of solid material IMO. I've never been so HAPPY about who I replaced honestly.

Post 572: Edward: EXPLAIN YOURSELF!? HOW THE HELL IS JAIME TOWN!?

nobody requested a justification of your scumhunting skills, so why give one? excusatio non petita...

Well excuse ME princess.


Honestly, I probably forgot most of what I thought before page 4. So expect me to reread my post if you ask me things.

[Spencer Remmington]

...*facepalm*

I voted a dead player, wow. That I ended up clearing.

Unvote Vote Jaime

[Spencer Remmington]

Three points, Spencer.

1. I don't get how in hell you can say things like 'The Igor wagon was dying when Jaime left it.' It had been put to L-1 all of three posts before. It was the leading wagon. This seems a ridiculous leap.

2. Why would you not think Gerhard was mafia, unless you are informed to the contrary? There are not multiple competing alien races in Terror From The Deep. There's humans, and there's aliens. That's it. Tentaculats are part of the same alien coalition as Gill men, etc.

I also want to know why this belief is scummy, because to me it's a sign of being uninformed majority.

3. Opinions on nolynch?

I'll answer the non walls first (Though I understand a wall was understandably expected in response to my prefabricated house of catch up there)

For 1, let us reconstruct the scene.

And discover I was wrong. To me, it looked like the wagon was weakening with Andrew's switch off, but it still had a fair amount of strength.

This, in and of itself, forces me to

Unvote

I HATE the idea of letting Jaime off though. He has not been posting well. He's been inconsistently defending then attacking Emile. He's been all over the place.

Point 2: Color of the flip. I honestly have NO knowledge of the flavor. I just replaced in as a favor to a friend. So, I saw a NON RED flip with Gerhard when I replaced in. THIS IS NOT A MAFIA FLIP COLOR. Unless there are two mafias, doubtful given number of kills and the fact we lost our BP D1. So, I am forced to conclude he is either an SK, or, as I would most likely postulate given the flavor, CULT.

The reason this initially made Jaime scummy is I figured it was well known that non red flip colors, as a rule, tend to be non mafia flips. And that Jaime was trying to lead you all astray from his faction. Does this make sense? Of course, everyone assumed scum was shot so it becomes a null tell, but it still makes me feel ill at ease.

Point 3: If it weren't for the fact my opinion on the swing vote had been revised, I would have preferred to save it for F4 after Jaime scum flipped. As it stands, no lynch is a decent idea.

I am still doing the re-read, sorry but Spencer accurate wall post (for which I thank him) is making the process slower.

Fortunately for you every post I talk about with a few exceptions (generally more joking comments) is linked, so you can conveniently loop back to key points of the game ^-^

Now I will respond to Jaime in a separate post.

[Spencer Remmington]

Ok, this might take a while...

Post 59: Yeah... I don't remember exactly what I was thinking then but I guess that I didn't really know what to discuss. I guess I was just waiting until someone else started the discussion.

Post 78: I'm not going to put a vote on someone just because they voted with no explaination (as that was the only thing against him at that point). It was the continued refusal and other general scumminess that made me eventually vote him.

Post 83: Yep, I (almost) voted town. Can't argue with you about that. What i am wondering though is what does Emiles flip have to do with this?

87: The reason for the vote was again his refusal to explain his vote, his lack of defense etc.

95: I never said "If he's a townie he needs to die". I said if he was a townie he's really hurting town and hurting town is scummy.

127: Not explaining votes is anti-town because it helps out scum (usually) and doesn't help town at all. (I guess under extreme circumstances it would be townish or at least null but from what I can tell it's still scummy). Also, again, yes, of course I was fishing because I thought he was a secret daycop -_- And you don't like my condecending tone? How is a tone scummy? I agree that sometimes I do have a condecending tone but that's just me, my personality. (and besides, being condecending is fun :D)

177: I was willing to beleive that he was a bp. That does not mean that he's auto clear in my book. If he could prove to me that he was townish I would be willing to beleive he was a bp (at least for then anyway).

251: Because him hiding his reasons was a big part of why I was voting him. If he could tell me why he voted with no explaination (and if it made sense of course) I would be happier. Also, the me beleiving his claim thing was talked about earlier.

269: What does this post have to do with me? Where's the wikitell? I don't see gloating. I'm confused.

303: I backtrack from Emile because the only thing I had on him was that Stuart could have had some kind of info on him which seemed very unlikely from his flip. Also, talk to all he other people who put Otto above Emile. The things on Otto greatly outweighed the things on Stuart.

319: This lies in my lack of knoledge of XCOM. i saw the alieness of his flip and thought to myself "The intro flavor text said the scum were aliens that means Gerhard must be scum!" I had no idea at the time that there were multiple alien races (well, I didn't think there weren't. I was unsure) or even if there were i didn't know that they were (supposedly) going against each other.

378: In a normal mafia game there are 3 scum. I was (and still am) this is an avarage game.

389: See before.

404: I was not going to vote them just because of low content (until later when Igor suggested we all vote and I decided just to put a placeholder vote).

416: i was not protecting Emile. I was just saying Leon was worse then Emile.

419: kay

427: 1. Yes Edward was right about Emile 2. I was not discrediting Edward I was defending myself (except for where I stated the possibility that hecould just be using his post to protect himself). 3. Nowhere in this post have I attacked OR defended Emile.

430: Like I said, placeholder vote. I had no intentions of keeping my vote on Leon if he was about to be lynched unless he started to appear scummier.

439: I was acting obviously anti-town and I was possibly hurting the town. Now, before you say "He just admited he was acting anti-town and so he acted more townie to get suspicion off of him!" Hear me out. Assuming I am town, why would I purposefully hurt the town with my vote on Leon?

454: I don't see it.

493: kay

548: Again, what does this post have to do with me? Yes, I see it as gloating. But still, if Igor was kept alive at that point it would seem that he would be tomorrows lynch (assuming we would not lynch today). Which brings me to my next point:

Spencer: Why do you vote? Please tell me why you think a lynch would be better then not lynching today because the way I see it unless we got a bastard mod (a crapload of scum and a whetever the hell Gerhard was) it seems that the best play today would be to not lynch.

Also, since it a huge wall of text it is very easy for me to have skipped over something so Spencer: if there is anything i missed that you want me to respond to please feel free to tell me :D

Alright, let's begin ^-^.

Post 78: Rereading your post I'll accept this. It still feels like you are calling him out without committing, but not as strongly as I thought.

Post 83: Was a terrible point and I shouldn't have raised it. Far too many people were in agreement for it to be a scumtell. At best you were fence sitting a little bit.

Post 87: I had a change of opinion between my break so this is also somewhat negated by the fact that too many people agreed on Stuart for things to be told either way.

Post 95: "If he's townie" statements tend to bug me in general. Of note is it gives you a "Well, so what if he was town?" excuse to pick up later. This isn't as bad as I initially thought though.

Post 127: Your tone isn't scummy, just added to my dislike of the post. Maybe I should separate dislike into "dislike for scuminess" "dislike for personality" :P. But at any rate, I don't care about the explanation now to be honest. The "it just IS" argument is what bugged me back then, but the fishing was indeed worse. Ok, you thought he was a secret daycop. What possible purpose would revealing this information serve? Rather, pro-town purpose?

Post 177: Not good enough. This is a fence sit. You can't have bought his claim yet wanted him dead unless you thought he was a SCUM bulletproof, but your post didn't convey that. It conveyed "Ok, prob town but I wanna see reasons for his vote so I won't unvote

someone I think is town

"

Post 251: This was a bad point, fueled by bias. Honestly, anything you said would have probably got me off on you. Nullifying point.

Post 296: Sorry, I got inconsistent. That wasn't directed towards you so much as the general group. Gloating is a wiki scumtell (from the mafia wiki), but I think it applies here. the "That was a shocker thing" felt like a veiled "WHOO! He was town!" to me.

Post 303: Fair. Dropped point.

Post 319: It wasn't XCOM knowledge. In fact, XCOM knowledge is against me in this case apparently. It was his flip color. That said, this became a null tell fast.

Post 378: Given the reliance on the Gerhard point, I'm forced to agree. However, if you flip scum, I would be led to believe we have 1 more scum to deal with, outside of Ger.

Post 389: Null at this point.

Post 404: What WILL you vote for then? You can't just wait for the scum to come to you. You have to actively fight for them. Even if it's weak put on a bold face, on both your words and your um...face. It gets REACTIONS. Reactions are GOOD.

Post 416: My bias read this as a chainsaw to be honest. I am, however, lead to retract this view. My apologies.

Post 427: Not in that post, overall (wrt Emile). As for discrediting

If Edward is scum I can easily see him using this post to protect himself "After rereading I think Stuart is pro-town" can be used to get town points for saying a confirmed townie was acting townish (especially since a lot of people thought he was scummy)

That speaks for itself.

post 430: The problem is, by saying that, you leave an out for you to backtrack if the winds change on you. Which is scummy.

Post 439: Could you explain this better? I'm confused. As for hurting town wrt Leon, you basically went back to having little to no obvious stance when you unvoted Leon, especially since it didn't appear you had a reason to unvote him. It felt like preparation to bus or move to the biggest wagon.

Post 548: Igor would not have been lynched unless you all were complete morons. No offense intended, but it would have been stupid to lynch Igor after he was the counterwagon against CONFIRMED SCUM. As for what it has to do with you, again, it was inconsistent formatting. That was to everyone.

Spencer: Why do you vote? Please tell me why you think a lynch would be better then not lynching today because the way I see it unless we got a bastard mod (a crapload of scum and a whetever the hell Gerhard was) it seems that the best play today would be to not lynch.

Before I reread the swing vote, I was certain you were scum. Someone dying, unless it was you (unlikely), would not have swayed me. I also felt I had a decent chance at convincing the rest of the town of your scuminess. As such, saving the no lynch for F4 was the optimal play in my eyes. However, with the swing vote, things are in a lot more flux. Effectively, a death will give me more information with regards to all players, I'd think. So, I do support a no lynch now. But I didn't earlier.

Either way, I think that at this point either Leon or Claude has to be scum. I still think Jaime COULD be, but is less likely to be. Edward is probably the most pro town. Andrew is kinda iffy but I remember a lot of decent opinions from him so I tentatively see him as town.

[Spencer Remmington]

177: Again, I did not think he was town. There is a very big differance between something that is beleivable and actually beleiving it. Stuart claimed bp. I thought that it was a beleivable claim (meaning that it's not some weird thing he probably made up like a secret daycop) but I was not willing to beleive it until he could prove me otherwise. I know that was a very bad post after looking back again and that it does look like a fencesit but whatev, there's nothing I can do about it now.

You probably should have been clearer on that.

319: Flip color? Really? This is a really bad point. Color does not tell someone what faction they belonged to. Mods can use any color they fucking want. For example, If someone died and it said "Hypothetical person (Cop)" in red (as that seems to be the most used scum color) would you think he was scum or a townie? What most people look at (at least me anyway) is thae flavor text and the flip name.

Mod meta. Malt plays Tar games. Tar games explicitly use red and green as base colors and different colors for third parties. And if someone died and it said "Person (Cop)", in red, I'd assume a scum cop.

404: Which is why I put the placeholder vote on Leon. I also look for overall scumminess, not just one scummy thing that they do. Of course if that one scummy thing is big enough I will look at them closely (which I did for Leon and Emile at that point) or vote them if it is rediculously scummy.

We're reaching theory argument at this point. I don't think I can convince you of that being a bad tactic, nor can you convince me it's a good one. I'll accept it for the time being.

430: This is Leons post.

Derp, meant 429

439: I took my vote off because obviously I wasn't helping out the town with it at all and I was possibly hurting the town. Now why would a townie purposefully hurt the town? (Also, this is overall just a reworded summary of what I said in my response because I can't think of any other way to explain it better. If you still don't understand I'm sure I could think of something).

WIFOM. I don't see how your vote was at all hurting town.

And claiming now because it's endgame, and it's worthless to try and hide roles at this point.

Unless we, yanno, no lynch.

Smart, because it narrows down the lynch. I REFUSE A NO LYNCH TODAY! HoS: Edward Dear lord, pushing it without trying is not smart. NO NO LYNCH UNTIL THE DAY ENDS. We can scum hunt up until then. Geezus.

Bit eager to win as scum, are we?

Post 609 Leon: I highly doubt you didn't know that. Further, it's the swing vote tell. Why did you vote Igor, despite wanting Emile to die, but, as far as I can tell, never voting Emile?

Did your role PM say you were a "Merely avarage aquanaut" or what because the whole "Merely" thing just seems out of place.

Missed this. Jaime, do you realize how terribly scummy this makes you look? Honestly, if it weren't for MY role PM I'd be voting you now.

Like you said yourself, Igor was saying a lot of crazy stuff and looked like he definitely deserved a vote. At the time, I felt that Emile was scummy but that Igor was even scummier.

Given the other players, I think you are the least of my worries. Or second least. I think your assessment was accurate.

Post 614 Leon: Ok, fine, he's acted antitown. Can you PLEASE explain why he did the swing vote off of a townie onto a theoretical scumbuddy, when Igor's lynch would probably have SEALED THE GAME FOR SCUM?

This is the ONLY reason I basically dropped the Jaime case.

Post 618 Leon: My problem is still the swing vote. And I am actually finding Jaime town for it after reassessing it. Please counter that argument.

While i do agree it could be considered scummy and something scum would use, I personally don't think it should be considered scummy unless you have more to go off on. From my point of veiw, just one time is not enough to build a solid case on it.

Why do you make me facepalm? What does meta have to do with a WIFOM argument for innocence?

Wellp, Leon is basically exploding into shambles of scumtardedness. But hey, if he can counter the swing vote point effectively, AND absolve his own swing vote AWAY from scum, I'll be willing to listen.

[Spencer Remmington]

Cleverly timed bus vote is all I can pretty much say.

Instead of being able to go DIRECTLY FOR THE WIN by getting Igor lynched? Really? Are you REALLY arguing that instead of going for a viable lynch that would WIN SCUM THE GAME, that Jaime would throw that away for shaky town cred?

You know, if I hadn't argued the same thing a couple days ago I'd swear you were crazy.

[Spencer Remmington]

Given what Jaime's said...if he's mafia, I'm led to conclude there are indeed 3+G. But, that's not very likely given the situation. At any rate, let me check, but I believe at the time Jaime voted Emile over Igor, Igor was at L-1, and the unvote took Igor back to L-2. While it wasn't necessarily a situation where voting Igor would have won the game, staying on Igor would have kept the wagon primed for someone to hammer giving the scum (assumably) victory.

Ah, no, wait, I was wrong. It was even BETTER then that. Andrew unvoted Igor, and RIGHT after that Jaime voted Emile.

Jaime never even voted Igor as far as I can tell.

That in and of itself reflects VERY well on Jaime? Does it clear him? No, I've used the swing vote tell before as scum. But it does a lot to mitigate his scumminess since it was CLEARLY a suboptimal play...

But only if my assumption is right. However, if my assumption isn't correct, we have another day to play with, ne? Odd are, one of Jaime or Leon is scum. Jaime is more likely to be last remaining scum. Leon, however, fits as part of a scum group. So, honestly, we should either lynch Leon today or tomorrow, and if by some stretch of the imagination he flips town, lynch Jaime, quite likely for the win.

What are the flaws in this plan?

[Spencer Remmington]

Ok, so then, explain to me how Jaime can both have done a "cleverly timed vote switch" (by the way, he was never on Igor, merely accused you), but also been STUPID enough to have thrown away a chance at victory by not pressing the Igor wagon?

So tell me, Leon, is Jaime an idiot or a genius? You can't have it both ways.

And Claude DOES bring up a good point. How is it certain we lose if we lynch wrong today?

[Spencer Remmington]

Also, Spencer, are you familiar with the phrase dumb or scum? If he knows Igor's wagon wasn't going to go, he would switch and bus his partner. To where a tunnel would be formed on his towniness. Not that hard of a concept, and if it is so, you are falling for it as planned.

It isn't, no, but there's one kink in your works. The Igor wagon wasn't about to die. It was at L-1 and was only slightly slowing. Just a little more pushing would have finished it, honestly. So, why would he suddenly bus his buddy when a perfectly good counter wagon FOR THE WIN was there?

If we no lynch today, we're back at the same point we are today with relatively no extra information other than PoE.

Which could be critical, honestly.

Indies do not typically count towards the scum.

In terms of balance it depends what the indy does.

Alright, so if Jaime is scum, who is he scum with? Honestly, I'm leaning dumb given that swing vote, and I'm leaning scum on you given YOUR voting history on that very wagon. Edward is quite correct that you didn't vote Emile despite "wanting him dead"

Of course, we've rehashed that over and over so I don't really see getting anywhere new with it.

If we lynched town today, and town gets killed tonight. We're done for.

Obviously. So, why are you pushing to lynch someone who has a decent probability of being town? And decide to mold ALL the evidence to fit what is becoming a desperate view?

[Spencer Remmington]

@Spencer - If Leon is one of the last 2 remaining scum, who do you think his partner would be? I would have said Claude, but I think it highly unlikely that all 3 scum would sit on Igor.

It has to be Claude. And remember, getting an Igor lynch was a win. It would not surprise me if all three scum were on that lynch.

I suppose Jaime could be idiot scum that screwed up the entire situation, and Leon is bussing the hell out of him, but that's a rather outside probability, ne?

I do not think Edward or you are scum at this point.

[Spencer Remmington]

Hey Jaime, uh, good going but uh, thanks for the misrep there. If you haven't noticed I'm STILL saying that we should go for

NO LYNCH

, not lynch one of you today.

SECONDLY, I'm not concluding that you two are different alignments because of your fight, I'm concluding it based on both of your vote histories.

So, it would be REALLY NICE if you could, yanno, READ what I'm saying rather than try to bullshit through the game. You are DAMNED lucky, assuming you are town, that you made that critical vote or I'd quite likely be being led astray by Leon right now, trying to lynch you.

Oh, bonus:

The other flaw is, like Leon said, if we lynch wrong we lose. Since we have to assume the worst we are at mylo today and we will be at lylo tomorrow (unless somehow one of the scum dies tonight) meaning that if we lynch town today or tomorrow... town loses.

You CANNOT BE SCUM with another player unless you are COLOSSALLY retarded and like throwing away wins. You are either lone scum or town. LEON, however, would have to be scum with another player (or alone). Therefore, I conclude that we should no lynch today, lynch Leon tomorrow, and if he flips scum, lynch Claude in endgame, or if he flips town, lynch you in endgame.

[Spencer Remmington]

Massclaim is a good idea since apparently we are in lylo.

Leon is pretty much the obvious lynch at this point.

[Spencer Remmington]

Oh, I do think we should all propose a list of massclaim order. I'll remind you that your scumpicks should probably go first, since that allows for real roles to counterclaim.

My list would be

Leon
Claude
Jaime
Edward/Spencer.

[Spencer Remmington]

Ok, so I'm vanilla, but I apparently have really special flavor.

Rather than able seaman/merely average aquanaut, I have a name, and some nice gloss about how awesome I am as a new recruit, but kinda got caught in the middle of things.

However, I am told that I am vanilla. So, that was kinda weird. And now Edward.

[Spencer Remmington]

You have four consecutive Vanilla Townie claims pretty much. That's definitely some kinda bullshit.

I agree, 6 vanille townies (7 if Edward ends up being one too) is a lot... Although it would explain how quick the night was...

Also, a special flavor vanilla role? This is... intriguing however, comepletely possible. Spencer, is there anything else you can tell us about your flavor.

Spencer, elaborate if at all possible cause the beginning states the Vanilla PM...a variation of that is weird in a sense that you are still a VT...

I am told that I am abilityless somewhere in my PM. I am also given a specific name, that I will ask the mod if I may claim. This name is different from my account name.

I call bullshit. When Leon claimed, you said that 'perfectly average aquanaut' did not sound like it came from a real role pm. If you really were a VT, that would be in your role PM as well. Care to explain?

This is

very

relevant. But that swing vote still nags me, since I don't see Jaime doing it with a partner, and it kinda looks like the mod is telling us we're in lylo.

Course, Jaime could have just not realized the situation was one where he could win right there, and this is pretty compelling evidence :S.

[Spencer Remmington]

k, update is that I am indeed Spencer Remmington, rank of Seaman, and I am told that I have no abilities since I just joined.

Asking if I can claim the old name.

[Spencer Remmington]

Finally, a sidenote about Spencer's role. Dude, you do have a special power, can't you see? I bet we all are leaning towards believing you are town, because "come on, who would invent such an incredible and pointless story?"... This is your special power: you are the closest to be cleared among us. If the mod ignores your request, some of us will prolly believe that your story is true. If you are scum, this may be a very good move.

I was well aware of this, but it'd be rather bad if I said it myself, ne? Of course, lampshading it also takes out the usefulness. At this point the fact my PM is a little weird is effectively a null tell.

First, I don't see it as very unrealistic that all of us except scum -who are obviously lying- are actually nilla's. In fact, we lost enough PR's to make this possible.

Remind me to say something about this post game.

First part: "I forgot the content of my own PM" --> I think any townie who tries building a case on a misquoted PM would go check his own.
Second part: "I though he meant it was his name instead of able seaman" --> this sounds like a not very convincing excuse to me.

i'm...leaning to agree, but if Jaime is town, it's dumb town, which would allow for this (no offense Jaime)

[Spencer Remmington]

No response from the mod yet. I don't see anything to respond to. I shall wait for Claude's theory, which he would understandably want to make since his neck is basically the one on the line if there are two scum left.

[Spencer Remmington]

That's the hell of it Claude. You basically are the only logical partner for either Jaime or Leon. Effectively, you are the best lynch through process of elimination. It's not really even a case. And it makes me feel bad to have to resort to that but...yeah.

[Spencer Remmington]

The name I had in the PM was changed. I've been...encouraged not to claim the old name since at that point I'm probably engaging in jackassery wrt using my role PM to confirm myself. As far as I know, that is the only change to my PM.

Honestly, a Claude lynch probably does make the most sense. If he's not scum it's far more likely Jaime is (assuming the game goes on)

[Spencer Remmington]

@Spencer: your ideal course of action is: today me, Jaime tomorrow. Which means you trust Leon. Would you tell me more about this?

Reading comprehension is tech. That's about all I need to tell you.

[quote="Spencer"
Honestly, a Claude lynch probably does make the most sense. If he's not scum it's far more likely Jaime is (assuming the game goes on) [/quote]

However, rereading this I can see where you might be led astray. Let me be more explicit

If Claude flips scum, and the game continues, then Leon is most likely scum
If Claude flips town, and the game continues, then Jaime is most likely scum

If Leon is scum, and the game continues, then Claude is most likely scum
If Leon is town, and the game continues, then Jaime is most likely scum

If Jaime is scum, and the game continues, then dear God Jaime is a moron, and Claude is most likely scum
If Jaime is town, and the game continues, then I'm at a loss, but I'd lean Leon as scum.

So, notice a trend here.

When either Jaime OR Leon is scum, Claude is scum with them, or they were the last remaining scum

, further,

if Claude flips town, we are still liable to have a chance since Jaime only makes sense as lone scum

Claude is both a good bet for scum and a good bet for getting the last bit of information we need to find the remaining scum, if any.

Does this make sense?