888: X-COM TFTD Mafia: Over!

[Emile Buchard]

Seriously, die, movie, username, it doesn't really matter. No vote has a real reason, and if they really used the dice then it would be truly random.

The whole deal is just a distraction. Let's get to the real matter: Edward, why are you asking everyone to vote for you? There doesn't really seem to be a reason or a point to it.

[Emile Buchard]

Since we're using alt. accounts, meta will be useless, unless you seriously do a lot of digging. Pretty much everything will have to come from inside the thread.

Also, to all you Twilight: New Moon haters, I love you.

[Emile Buchard]

No vote has a real reason.

Say what?

/Facepalm.

Seriously, die, movie, username, it doesn't really matter. No

RVS vote

has a real reason, and if they really used the dice then it would be truly random.

^that's what I meant^

[Emile Buchard]

This random vote non-sense isn't getting us anywhere. Seriously guys, this isn't helping. We need to stop speculating about game theory and start scum-hunting. You talk about that in the Mafia Discussion forum (and I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion there) but this stuff really doesn't matter.

I do think that the discussion is between townies, though, as both Jamie and Lean seem like they want to move the game along. It's still too early to make any clear reads, though.

[Emile Buchard]

Edward, you said that if we didn't vote for you that we were scum. Well, you aren't voting for yourself, so by your own logic, you are scum. Explain

Gehard is meta-fishing, that's true, but is that scummy? I personally think that meta benefits the town more than scum. Still, Igor is under no obligation to answer.

Be back with more later.

[Emile Buchard]

Okay, it's later. Here's some more:

It was close between two people....while I hate twilight and new moon references, and wish to vote for the one who made them, someone else deserves my vote more:

vote:Jaime Marcelle

For using a dice to determine your RVS vote to avoid responsibility for your actions.

Dice = anti-town

Otto was the one who started the whole dice deal. While you could make the argument that it was just as random as the other votes, he still gains some scum points.

How does using a dice avoid responsibility other then any other random vote? It's just as random as anything else.

Also I reccomend everyone get an avatar. It's easier (for me at least, I'm not sure about everyone else) for me to tell everyone apart.

Many feel that using a dice method to cast your votes is not showing your own responsibility of casting a vote, and man feel, as well, that it is Anti-Town. With that being said, some view it also as policy lynch worthy. What do you think?

Furthering the fruitless RVS discussion without taking a stance either way. If you look at it right, this post could easily be the first post in a topic in Mafia Discussion. What ensues is pretty much what you'd expect as replies in that topic.

If it's policy lynch worthy? Why wouldn't it be? I see no reason for why it wouldn't be beneficial. That is, asking the question itself.

Thanks for clarifying. But you are utterly wrong. Hardly any RVS votes are random. They have a reason for voting that player, which they will pass of as a random vote.


Example"Hmm, player A doesn't have any votes."

"Sup, guys!

Vote: Player A"

Pushing the discussion even more and asking more questions. Looking back, really only two posted more than one response to the whole RVS deal. Those two people were Leon and Jaime. Jaime was defending himself, though, so much of the blame for the whole RVS deal could be thrown on Leon.

@Leon, why were you asking those questions about the RVS?\

@Otto, was your vote on Jaime just another random vote, or was there a real reason for it?

[Emile Buchard]

Okay, it's later. Here's some more:

It was close between two people....while I hate twilight and new moon references, and wish to vote for the one who made them, someone else deserves my vote more:

vote:Jaime Marcelle

For using a dice to determine your RVS vote to avoid responsibility for your actions.

Dice = anti-town

Otto was the one who started the whole dice deal. While you could make the argument that it was just as random as the other votes, he still gains some scum points.

@Otto, was your vote on Jaime just another random vote, or was there a real reason for it?

Why do I gain scum points? Think about this for a second:

I gave a reason that was just as valid as any other RVS vote reason, and if you deny this, you are a hypocrite.

I am not scum for bringing this up. Two things in the RVS that will get you policy votes are self votes and dice rolls for ways of voting. When I saw Jaime roll dice for his vote, I took the policy vote stand, as for the most part it is scum who do it to avoid vote responsibility. If anything, one of those who agreed with me and/or joined the BW is scum [if Jaime isn't scum] I made the stand, and the fact that others supported my stand either implies that I was right [not earning mr scum points but rather town points], or there are opportunistic scum with me.

What do you have to say now?

Oh, and good to know who Chaco is now lol

Fine. -scum points for your reasons. + scum points for not answering the question. Now you're back where you started. Happy now?[/joking]

Seriously, those scum points are really minute, kind of temp actually. Right now, I don't know why you did that, and what you did let to a long discussion that just led us in circles. Explain, why did you vote for Jaime?

[Emile Buchard]

I already did answer your question. Read my post again, and you'll see that I explained that it was a policy vote. Also, you can't blame me for anything in your prev post either. I simply initiated the discussion, while it was you guys that sent it in circles.

True, the scum are most likely the people who furthered the discussion. Still, do you believe that using a dice as a reason for a random vote is scummy?

Because, it is a method to get us out of RVS and see what the others think of it presently.

Well, whether that was your intention or not, it worked. In truth, the scum are probably not the ones who started the discussion, but the ones who went along with it. I bet that there's at least one scum among those who responded to the RVS thing without furthering the game.

[Emile Buchard]

Okay, I've re-read, and the people who seemed to try and further the discussion without furthering the game are, in no particular order:

Stuart Whyte

The idea is that just because you claim to vote for that reason doesn't mean its all there was to it. There are underlying decisions that scum have to make. ie: Whether to vote for each other or not. When you remove all decision making it removes the point of the RVS. How do you expect the game to move forward if everyone only random voted?

A scummy random stage vote you say? And when all the votes are done randomly, with dice, in thread, which vote would that be? I think you just prove my point for me.

Stating his opinion on the RVS without actually furthering the game. Seems as if he just wants to keep talking about the RVS. Later he votes for me and gives no reason for it.

Andrew Lemarchand

I don't think using dice for RVS is inherently scummy nor is it something that I view as policy lynch worthy, but it does allow people to hide behind the dice. Is it significant that people voted based on Twilight or because someone was named Igor? No, but they did have to decide who to vote for. There's really not much to be gained from this information not but it's still important because scum have to choose whether to vote for their buddies or not.

Again, just posting his opinion on the dice/RVS without voting or otherwise trying to further the game.

Igor Schultz

LEON. Are you saying that people think they know who is scummy before they first post? and that every vote has good logical reasons this early in the game? Thus you are impling that we are all supper cops have esp, and never vote in RV. RVS is to start an early band wagon not to toss real votes on scummers around. However the scum will most likly not vote for one of their buddys, but other then that rvs votes are as good as that.

Again, stating opinions on the RVS without trying to make the game go along.

We need to get some info going, as emile is saying this has nothing to do with the game. Some person votes any one that they like in RVS be it real RV or because they have an urge. It does not matter. We need to get the game going. It is a bit too early to make a real reead yet...

(When the question of how we have usefull discussion was posed)start a wagon like in most games... That most of the time gets the game ball rolling.

Stating that we need to get some info without actually trying to get info. Scum points here.

Jaime also really helped the "discussion to nowhere", but he was defending himself, so it's understandable that he would post a lot. Leon started the whole thing, but it sounds more like a town attept to get info. If he was scum, then his plan seriously back-fired.

I'll get some more up later.

[Emile Buchard]

Sorry for not posting guys. Nasty weekend. Anyway, right now, I think we could do a lot worse for a Stuart lynch. His play his flat out anti-town, whether he's scum or not. Even if he does filp town, having him dead will certainly help us down the road.

vote: Stuart

[Emile Buchard]

@Claude, no I had no idea it was a L-2, I thought it was was an L-1 vote.

Midday Reads

Leon--Started the discussion about the RVS, but it comes off as townie in my book because he seemed like he was trying to lead us out of the RVS, which he did. Lately he's been posting long post that don't mean much, so plus some scum points there. Still, my gut says town.

Gerhard--There's really no reason to think that Gerhard is anything but town, really.

Andrew--Has been kind of going with the flow, but I liked his response to me saying his play was scummy. He isn't obv town, but my gut says he isn't scum.

Jaime--Defended himself quite a bit with that whole RVS junk, but for some reason it didn't come off as scummy, and the claim really was eroneos to begin with. I'm leaning toward town.

Orski (Edward)--Edward's claim was kind of crazy, but my opinion on it was that it was noob town who played some game were a guy used that strategy to get discussion started. Not enough info either way at this point, though.

Otto--Started the RVS discussion, but he can't really be blamed for it. Still, his response when I brought it up left a sour taste in my mouth. Since then he's kind of disappeared. I'm leaning scum on him.

Claude--Has posted little meaningful content. Back in the RVS he gave an answer to the "topic" started by Leon where he tried to get off on some philosophy about randomness and such. Later he vote for Jaime for little explained reason. I'm leaning scum here.

Igor--Hasn't posted much, and what he has posted hasn't been much. I'm going to call scum here.

Stuart--One of the most obvious anti-town people I've ever played with. This guy is such a blatant imparement to the town that his lynch would benefit us scum or not.

Spencer--Has fenced with Stuart since the early game, but for good reason. Probable town.

Tracy--I haven't got much of a read on her, but from what I've seen I'm leaning town.

[Emile Buchard]

Bullet proof? Ok, 1) I don't buy that at all.

@Those who have played X-Com is there some invincible hero? I doubt it.

Well, there is powered armour in regular X-COM, and I'm sure there's something like that in TFTD. Possible one-shot immunity?

Is Stuart still alive? Are we seriously still having this conversation? There is no point in keeping him alive. He has provided zero information that is worthwhile to the town; he is scummy and anti-town; and we have been pulling teeth from him for the past four or five pages. He is a liability to the town whether he is scum or town. There is no way to move past this. Stuart is anti-town; anti-help; anti-progress; anti-scumhunting; and anti-everything. The simple fact that someone has not hammered him is mind boggling.

I love you. There is no reason on earth for Stuart to be alive right now. If he's lynch-immune that would make him virtually immortal, which I don't think the mod would do.

[Emile Buchard]

I love you. There is no reason on earth for Stuart to be alive right now. If he's lynch-immune that would make him virtually immortal, which I don't think the mod would do.

This post troubles me. A lot.

Emile - do you have any reason to suspect why Stuart is targeting you?

Emile - what will you think if Stuart flips town?

1. I have no idea why he's targeting me.
2. I'd think that we've gotten a big distraction out of our hair. Seriously, even if he is "town", all he can do is serve as a hinderance to the town.

I have no intention of giving reasons for any votes I make in this game.

Why is Stuart still alive?

Gerhard is right though, this wagon is such a plus for scum. Either way they go, and the lynch is still going through. However, not lynching him and living with him (because he's not going to get NKed, ever) is an even worse fate. There's probably town on the wagon, town off the wagon, scum, on the wagon, and scum off the wagon. They're so mixed up, though, that its nearly impossible to tell who's who.

BTW,

vote: reveal

. Sorry, I forgot about it. No reason not to really.

[Emile Buchard]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while. I can't get on whenever I like, so.

The reason I didn't attack Stuart as much was because from what I gathered, he wasn't sharing. He payed the price for that action.

Right now, I'm tempted to believe Otto's claim, as there's really nothing for him to loose. Why is it that all of our NK immune players are so scummy! Ah!

Right now, I'm leaning towards Igor. I'll have to re-read him, but I don't have the time now.

[Emile Buchard]

@Claude, I don't really understand your case on Jaimie. Explain?

[Emile Buchard]

I agree with Igor. Honestly Otto, what

are

the chances of you PMing the mod asking to probe somebody and getting a response? Still, there is one thing in X-COM that might validate your claim, and that's psonic powers. At the early stages of the game you don't know if your soldiers have psonic powers or not, but you find out later. Still, this reason isn't enough for me not to vote for Otto, so

vote: Otto

.

[Emile Buchard]

WOW ! How come all our power roles are total ass-holes?

[Emile Buchard]

Sorry I haven't been able to respond to much, I've just been really busy with real-life. With debate going on, and a slew of other things, finding time for this game is hard.

Anyways, on to the game, what

are

were your reasons for voting for me? State them and I'll respond. It's also annoying how all of our power roles are dead, but I guess we'll have to press on regardless.

[Emile Buchard]

@Claude, Are you implying that I would vote Leon

just

because he's said he supports my lynch? If so, then no.

Everyone, I'm really sorry about not posting as much, but my life's suddenly gotten busy since D-1. That explains my lack of content.

As for Gehard, it was a weak case to begin with, and as has been said before, meta fishing ins't so much a scum tell as it just broke the rules. If you look at it, the case against me is really weak.

The reason I'm getting the blame is because there's a real lack of scummy people in this game--which is good. Just take a look at Spencer. He hasn't been posting much recently, and when he did he went all out against Stuart, whom he probably gathered was an easy target.

FoS: Spencer

[Emile Buchard]

Edward, do you realize how anti-town not explaining reasons are? Seriously, he flat-out refused to give any sort of reason what so ever. That is A1 anti-town play. The way the game moves is that you state your reasons for a vote and then other people debate those reasons. How are we supposed to validate his case if it's just "because he smells scummy"?

And Edward, how are we supposed to

know

he has a reason if he didn't tell us his reason. Also, please refrain from directing obscenities at other players--it ruins the spirit of the game.

Also, you said

Whyte was in the right on virtually everything.

Whyte said that vote reasons were "anti-town", so using deductive reasoning, if Whyte was right on everything, then he was right when he said that vote reasons were "anti-town", no? Yet you gave reasons for suspecting other people. The word for that is "contradiction".

I think I would have voted without explanation there too.

Now how the hell can you say that you would have voted without explanation as well if you don't know why Whyte voted without explanation or even if he had an explanation to begin with. Crap logic.

FoS: Edward

[Emile Buchard]

Criticizing someone's civility is the resort of someone who's losing the argument. Also, I haven't sworn at anyone.

Which is exactly why you should stop calling people "idiots".

Now, dice voting is antitown, for the reasons i and others have given earlier in the thread (and the recent MD poll agreed by 2-1, so it's a majority opinion but not an uncontroverted one).

So if it isn't incontroverted issue, why are you making it such a big deal? Seriously, die or no die, does it really matter? The answer, is no, so long as it really is a die. Since we cannot verify this, then the case cannot really be proven either way--null point.

I think I would have voted without explanation there too.

Now how the hell can you say that you would have voted without explanation as well if you don't know why Whyte voted without explanation or even if he had an explanation to begin with. Crap logic.

Is proven by:

Alright, I guess I can agree with you that Emiles post was scummy but how do you know that that was the reason for his vote?

Well, I don't know...

Need I say more?

Townies on your tail? Seems like a good time to suggest a lurker lynch.

I was merely pointing out that the only reason anybody was voting for me was because of Gehard (which was an honest mistake) and my lack of activity, so I said here's somebody who is even less active. BTW positions on people can change throughout the course of the game. Remember that.

Oh, and Igor, do you realize how scummy your posts look? You forgot a #7 possibility, that your scum and you slipped and now your posting a bunch of crap because you want to cover up. We lynch you and we finally get a lynch right for a change. Make sense?

[Emile Buchard]

vote: Igor

.

He's been wishy-washy the whole game. When people suspect Stuart, he votes Stuart, when people suspect Leon, he votes Leon, when people suspect me, he makes sure to be the first person to vote for me the next day so he can say he wasn't being wishy-washy. Then he comes up with some stupid gambit that failed epically just to try and cover his ass. Igor, I believe that puts you at L-1, what do you have to say?

[Emile Buchard]

@Emile: If a protown player sees another player make a compelling case against a third party, what should he do?

Depends on how compelling the said case is.

emmy have you noted that you have only voted for town players thus far? I voted for ger way back in the day.

You are assuming that you are town yourself, something that I highly doubt. Also, Stuart was anti-town regardless of his alignment, I'm sure nearly everyone here can agree on that. Otto suicided. You can't really say that "I've only voted for town players. You saying you voted for Gehard doesn't mean anything except that you bussed him and are trying to get the credit for it now.

[Emile Buchard]

@Emile: If a protown player sees another player make a compelling case against a third party, what should he do?

Depends on how compelling the said case is.

Oh, COME ON! This is just a blatant dodge. I've said it's compelling. IE, you believe it correct.

Well, if I believe it's correct then I'll go with it and if I don't then I won't go with it. It's that simple. Either way, the question has no real point or bearing on the game. As far as my "perfect record" I've only voted for two townies. TWO! Now, if you know anything about probabilities then you know that the chance of a townie voting for two townies back-to-back is pretty probable. You can't extrapolate all kinds of crazy allegations over such a small sample size.

Now, I think Igor is sinking deeper and deeper into a pit of scumminess. He hasn't done anything to convince me that he's anything but flailing scum.

[Emile Buchard]

What is making Igor sink deeper and deeper in scumminess, exactly? Just the fact that he is accusing you?

To answer the second question--no, to anwer the first--his obvious flailing. When people started putting votes up on him he started pulling all kinds of stuff about gambits and this and that, all while trying to constantly push my lynch which--surprise--just so happens to be the other wagon. Then he started attacking anybody who got on his case.

I would be caring more about the fact that people whoever their faction are on my wagon, also Re-read what leon said you seemed not to grasp the context.

Last time I checked you were worried because people whoever their faction are on your wagon.

Present.

I still dislike Jaime, Igor looks a bit better. Still not a whole lot, so I'm leaving my vote there.

I never have liked Emile, so I wouldn't be sad to see him go today.

This was a quick hit, more will come.

I commend you for supporting pretty much every single possible lynch in this game. Great job--fence sitter.