Mini 889 - Shopping Frenzy (Over)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

vote: Torqez

Bandwagon!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

SO i have a question for all of you. What are your experiences with mafiascum. Have you played in other sites? or are you still a newbie.

Here let me fix that disaster for you...

Dearest sirs and madams, if I may pray bother you with a humble query then I would consider myself most fortunate. How much experience doth thine have with the game of mafia on both this site of the interwebs and across the entirety of existance. Good sirs and madams I beseech you that you respond in good haste.

To which I answer: trout.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

But atm, I'm getting bored of Mafia (going through a phase ) ...so i'd be willing to try anything for the sake of variety!

Sounds like you'll be a liability to the town even if you are town. Everyone not voting Torqez should be now for his uselessness.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

As to this recent discussion I shouldn't have to point out that there's no guarantee that we have a cop and that no lynching is almost always the wrong decision based on statistics let alone the information lynch provides.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

With the game stagnating this is where I'd usually just jump on the largest bandwagon, except I'm already there. Can we stop this stupid no lynch discussion and get back to lynching Torqez?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I doubt DDD is fully advocating a lynch at this point, but if taken literally it can be read that way.

Nope, fully advocating it, let's kill Torquez here and now.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: Is that a policy lynch then? I'd prefer a replacement at this point seeing as we're only 3 pages in, if we assume he will flake.

Sure, call it that if you like. Seriously, I had a large normal game a few months ago where the entire scum team was extremely apathetic about playing and yet none of them replaced out. Why? Because players usually enjoy being scum and feel an obligation to the role more than they do as a random townsperson. So Torquez was providing pre-emptive cover for their lame scummy behavior in the future and we should string 'em up.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Was in Pittsburgh most of the last two days, will re-read early tomorrow and have thoughts.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Sure, call it that if you like. Seriously, I had a large normal game a few months ago where the entire scum team was extremely apathetic about playing and yet none of them replaced out. Why? Because players usually enjoy being scum and feel an obligation to the role more than they do as a random townsperson. So Torquez was providing pre-emptive cover for their lame scummy behavior in the future and we should string 'em up.

Is this common everywhere? I mean, from what I've read town are just as likely to lurk as scum. It depends on the player.

Town are more likely to flake than play a game they’re cold on, scum is more likely to smother a game in non-participation even if they’re cold on the game. Torquez opened the game making pre-emptive excuses for lazy scum behavior, instead of waiting for it to happen and damaging the game we should lynch them instead.

~~~~~

Nope, fully advocating it, let's kill Torquez here and now.

lol, care to state your reasons again?

Sure, you’re scum.

@DDD: Is that a policy lynch then? I'd prefer a replacement at this point seeing as we're only 3 pages in, if we assume he will flake.

Theres no signs of me flaking at all I am fully committed to this game.

There’s also little active participation from you other than a general distress at the vote count and trying to divert attention from yourself.

So Torquez was providing pre-emptive cover for their lame scummy behavior in the future and we should string 'em up.

Or providing you with an excuse to mislynch? Pre-emptive cover for future? lol

It’s certainly a reason to lynch you. To mislynch you? Well I’d have to wait for a flip before that was even possibly true.

~~~~~

Hey Josh Lyman, I saw you /in for another game,

after the prod went out

. Hows about you play in the game you're already in first?

DDD - Is your full reasoning for wanting to lynch Torq due to him saying he was getting bored with Mafia in a post of his and then drawing the conclusion this means he is prob-scum because only scum would stay in a game when they are getting bored with Mafia during that time?

There’s also little active participation from him other than a general distress at the vote count and trying to divert attention from himself. Oh and he tossed around some OMGUS’, that was useful.

~~~~~

This entire post seems to defend DDD. Is this based on meta or a gut feeling?

I’d say it’s based on reality.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Town are more likely to flake than play a game they’re cold on, scum is more likely to smother a game in non-participation even if they’re cold on the game. Torquez opened the game making pre-emptive excuses for lazy scum behavior, instead of waiting for it to happen and damaging the game we should lynch them instead.

~~~~~

[

Do you think people are less likely to replace out as power roles as well? Or just scum. Either way, I think this part of the case on Torquez is reading into null-tells too much.

My dataset doesn't speak to that issue. From a psychological perspective I'd agree that it's reasonable, but I simply don't have the experience to make such a claim.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@ DDD

JL, what are your own opinions of your activity in this game?

I will admit I'm not playing this game as well as I could be. I attribute this to inertia -- the game got going pretty quickly and I meant to come and post, and then there was more to reply to, and the longer I waited the more there was to reply to, and so on. Like a snowball.

I know I have to do some heavy lifting to redeem myself, and that (hopefully) will come real quick.

Why not the same policy @ Josh that you attribute to me? Double standards?

He acknowledges a current problem that needs to be fixed, you're making excuses for ones that haven't even happened yet. Now if he doesn't address the problems then I will be all over him for the same reason as I am on you for merely doing enough to remain in the game. By preemptively justifying your behavior I can only assume you intend to follow through with it and thus I must respond appropriately.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

He acknowledges a current problem that needs to be fixed, you're making excuses for ones that haven't even happened yet. Now if he doesn't address the problems then I will be all over him for the same reason as I am on you for merely doing enough to remain in the game. By preemptively justifying your behavior I can only assume you intend to follow through with it and thus I must respond appropriately.

Normally I wouldn't have a problem with this kind of logic, but I think taking what Torqez said and saying it's to fall back on is a huge stretch. Even if that was his plan, it's incredibly weak, no one would let a scummy action pass because the player claimed, "oh but look I was bored and even said so here."

This whole thing is stupid.

Uh no, I've used that excuse before quite capably. I basically told the town as scum that I was going to lurk and if they had any questions feel free to ask. Never lynched, never even pressured that heavily, scum won.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Except your inconsistent in the fact that you give him allowance to " Now if he doesn't address the problems then I will be all over him" whereas you haven't given me the same justice.

Double standards, like I say. I honestly don't know what your motivation is as I totally see your behaviour as Antitown.

There's a clear difference between your pre-emptive excuses and his ex post facto acknowledgment of error. His indicates a willingness to play the game properly, yours would've merely provided you with cover for your poor behavior.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Uh no, I've used that excuse before quite capably. I basically told the town as scum that I was going to lurk and if they had any questions feel free to ask. Never lynched, never even pressured that heavily, scum won.

Then you played with a poor town because I would have never let that pass.

Uh no, I was playing with some players I respect pretty highly in that game. Town basically broke their own will and scum did nothing to stop it and then played under the radar the entire game.

Of course that game has the combination problem of folding under it's own massive size and severe lurker problems. This game has only dealt with the second issue, but untreated such an issue can absolutely cripple a town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

We are not exactly waiting for scummy behavior from Torq. He's admitted he's bored with Mafia, and if he's

that

bored, why enter a game? Why stay in a game? Why admit it in-thread? This is just too unusual to be pro-town.

I guess it is illogical for Torqez to decide to play a game if he finds it boring. But I still have no idea how in the hell that's an alignment-influenced decision, seeing as how he made it before he had an alignment.

What in the world are you talking about? Role PMs went out November 25th, Torquez made his comment on November 30th. He absolutely had his alignment available to him and thus your baffling and incorrect argument falls on it's face and I'm wondering how you could get that wrong?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unfortunately something's come up and I won't be able to play this game. I'm very sorry

Would the thing that came up be you just blatantly making things up and me catching you and so now you flee in terror?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I find it comical that you all think I'm scummy for not scumhunting, whereas a plethora of others have done even less.

That reasoning never fooled your mother, you expect it to work on us?

"But mom, everyone else is doing it."

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD:
You attacked Torqez for mentioning that he was bored with the game, but stayed do to the fact he had some feeling of responsibility as scum and that's why he didn't replace out.
Now you're attacking Eleven...etc. for replacing out when attacked as scum.
So scum feel an allegiance to the game at one moment but quickly flee in others?

No, I was just being mean because the moment I raised an interesting point that player disapeared meaning we don't even get an explanation for that behavior which annoyed me more than a little.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Originally I was jokingly voting him to see how he reacted to a bit of pressure, I didn't read his push on Torqez as scummy nor indicative of him being town, it was just a case. But the more he posted the more my jaw dropped, at this point in time he is my top lynch advocate.

You mean candidate, not advocate btw.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

part of why i'm claiming is to put it out in the open early and give town more choices in how to deal with it, rather than risk claiming later in the game with less credibility under pressure and losing a key town advantage.

I think the

real

reason you're claiming is to draw attention AWAY from yourself -- if you've already claimed town, after all, how can anyone

possibly

think you could be scum? Based on this, and the reasons I voted your predecessor, my vote remains.

We need more don_johnson votes, guys. We're running out of time (less than a week).

I am not trying to pull the time thing in order to quicklynch -- I merely think that this is our most likely scum, and thus needs to be lynched. Stat.

I invite and welcome discussion on this point.

Why lynch him now? I'm not saying he gets a free pass, but I see no reason to lynch a claimed townie on D1.

Oh well if that's all it takes to not get lynched then I'm claiming to be a townie, possibly with secret powers, possibly not. You see why your argument fails? That being said I see no reason to lynch DJ right now.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, people enjoy playing scum roles but they also enjoy playing power roles, you don't need a dataset to know that. You are ignoring half of the possibilities that your own logic brings up and just claiming that he is scum.

There is such a thing as logic that's actually counter intuitive such as when driving you turn into a skid to right yourself. Hence while logic can get you some of the way there, evidence is a much stronger base and I have no evidence that supports or contradicts the power roles replace out less often theory.

Post 11 claims that being bored with the game is an excuse that does work and then continues provides us with an completely different example to what Torqez is being accused of giving.

The point is that a player can sometimes be given a free pass to a degree by giving pre-emptive notice of poor behavior. As the town we should take notice of such behavior and shouldn't let it stand. Since I see no pro-town benefit for making such a sad statement, attack.

Post 16: What? How does that matter? If something is scummy it is scummy and if more than one person is doing it you should be grinding everyone about it, not just tunneling in on one person. If I killed a man and told the cops that it doesn't matter because all my friends are doing it they are sure as hell not just going to lock me up, they'd at the least ask me for evidence to support my case, not just say "that never worked on your mother."

Context, Torquez was trying to evade suspicion by simply dragging other unnamed people down with him. If he really believed such behavior was poor then why wouldn't he call them out? Instead he simultaneously tries to redirect attention from himself and facilitates their behavior by not attempting to pressure them himself.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

unvote
FoS: muh

Seriously, why are you letting others in the town dictate where you are voting?

~~~ We have three days until deadline, we need to get moving so we have time for all of the usual end of day activities. Julie and Josh need to get onto one of the four wagons and then the lesser wagons need to break apart as the people move to the bigger wagons unless they start agitating really hard for the lynch of their choice.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote, Vote: Josh Lyman

Let's go, let's go, let's go. He let a little town pressure dictate his play which means either his original play was extremely weak and he knew it or he's afraid to cross the town, both are scummy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hey Scott, you showed up just about five hours before deadline, claimed to be catching up and then never posted again as we lynched scum no thanks to you. Were you trying to run out the deadline for a no lynch or were you trying to run out the deadline for a no lynch?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

God damn it Debonair Danny DiPietro, you have an avatar I want to punch in the face every time I see it.

Vote DDD

I switched to a new brand of smug, is that better?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Someone inform me of the claims so far before I start reading thanks.

Don, unprompted, claimed some variation of bulletproof townie but has declined to state if he has any active abilities or if his bulletproof ability is single shot or permenant or somehwere in between. I think we've avoided having any other claims unless I'm mistaken.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Wow great lynch guys. One scum down. And welcome Albert and i really liked that old avatar DDD this one makes me want to punch it in the face. And I guess were back at RVS.

ABR matters, you do not. Besides it was time for a change anyways.

And we're not back at the RVS, we've got a fun set of interactions from day one to explore to help lead us to a decision.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

V/LA - I'll be back Saturday

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Mod: Prod/Replace: Scott Brosius

... lame.

It's pretty shallow but given the way the wagon went I'm most suspicious of those not on it at day end, because it would've been easy to try and ride out the lynch. Which means I'm looking at Scott (or his replacement), Chinaman, el simo/ABR, and good ole Torquez.

Chinaman is probably last on that list, I think the slip that DJ is touting seems to be more easily attributed to the tone of Chinaman's posts. El Simo/ABR is third, but I really need to see something out of the player slot because El Simo basically chased around me the entire day and then went missing. Scott and Torquez offered the town absolutely nothing on day one so that's where my interest lies.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yo, ABR, if you've got time to talk about fat chicks in GD then you've got time to give us some sort of content here, homie. Here I'll even give you a reason to do so...

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Prodding Scott Brosius, Torqez, Chinaman

Maybe it's time for a replacement for Scott then, ja?

Also Mod, Prod: ABR

Muh, try to stop being so pathetic and do something.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Prodding Scott Brosius, Torqez, Chinaman

Maybe it's time for a replacement for Scott then, ja?

Also Mod, Prod: ABR

Muh, try to stop being so pathetic and do something.

The same should go for more than half of the people here. And what should I do anyways. The same everybody else is doing

So you have no interest in finding scum, your sole concern is doing what everyone else is doing? Is that what you're saying?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I also think a scott lynch would be better because he almost cost us a no lynch. And I think he might be activley lurking to find a way out of this slip. So that people forget about him.

Scott hasn't posted on this site in nine days and it appears he's flaked from two or three other games as well that he was in, that's some real hardcore "active lurking".

Unvote; Vote: muh316

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And what makes that a good reason for voting me

You're not paying attention and you have no interest in actually scumhunting. Town would be paying attention and has a huge interest in scumhunting.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Muh, claim?

Unless you're threatening to hammer, you do not ask for a claim.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, where the frack is there a claimed town PR thus far in the game. I do not see any. You sir are a liar. (ref p318)

DJ claimed bulletproof (open-ended) yesterday. You sir are a fool.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote

Moronic macho doc is moronic.

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

because he's not a follower and him pretending to be one is nonsense.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I will have a lot more to say after the lynch and NK.

We've already had one of each of those and we're getting nothing from you so it's basically impossible to believe you.

Muh simply doesn't have the smarts to be running some sort of gambit with his claim, he's clearly just completely lost. Frankly I'm suspicious of everyone on his wagon right now because it seems an easy place to sit.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

is there any reason these players can't be scum together?

Other than the fact that soft bussing after a correct day one lynch seems like the opposite of good strategy? And other than the fact that we can't be scum together because I'm town?

At least you two aren't voting for muh anymore.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

is there any reason these players can't be scum together?

Other than the fact that soft bussing after a correct day one lynch seems like the opposite of good strategy? And other than the fact that we can't be scum together because I'm town?

At least you two aren't voting for muh anymore.

neither of you are going to get lynched when there are competing busses on potential VIs. In a debate death match either of you would mop the floor with either of them.

This way you get to be on the record as voting for each other, and not on the record as voting for someone who is proven by a lynch to be town.

Reasonable theory, wrong, but reasonable. I'd disagree about it being optimal strategy as well. With a weak town like this there would be no need for me to really fear being on a mislynch especially on day two because my cred from being on the day one lynch would carry weight and my mad "debate death match" skillz and making sure there was a mislynch on day two would be my first priority.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

ABR, on a scale from 1 (low) to 10 (high) what are your estimated INT, INV and ACT values for Muh, Chinaman, DDD, and julienvonwolfe?

What is INV, I can figure out the other two, but INV eludes me just based on the shorthand.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Adel, care to fill us all in on what INT INV and ACT mean?

If you can't figure out what INT and ACT mean then your (generic) INT score drops at least two points from where it was originally slotted.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I hope this game has vigs and they're going to kill the scum.

So, you?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: ABR

I didn't like el simo, ABR replaced el simo. el simo wasn't on the day one correct wagon, that's not good. ABR was on the day two mislynch, that wasn't good either. ABR's other target is/was a VI with a claim that no VI would make. ABR has also categorically refused to help the town with actual content. Conclusion, the player slot is scummy as all get out, lynch 'em.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: do i or do i not often get lynched as town?

I don't know about lynched, but as town you certainly regularly get yourself into trouble because you play like an idiot despite the fact that you're not one.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: ABR

I didn't like el simo, ABR replaced el simo. el simo wasn't on the day one correct wagon, that's not good. ABR was on the day two mislynch, that wasn't good either. ABR's other target is/was a VI with a claim that no VI would make. ABR has also categorically refused to help the town with actual content. Conclusion, the player slot is scummy as all get out, lynch 'em.

uh ok. I thought you wanted to lynch me without asking any questions.

So I rather get lynched then ask a replacement in that situation.

Really, there's a reason why we're not lynching this player slot?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

We're not no lynching today. I'll let Don try and answer the question though.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

1. Active Abilities: don't have any
2. Passive Abilities: don't have any
3. Groups (will passive abilities and active abilities) : don't have any
4. Faction: the town
5. Targets, Actions and/or Results if your role has them: n/a
6. Reasons for your targets: n/a
7. name of the next person who will claim: julien

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

(DDD can respond to my vote on him yesterday, too)

Well the beginning doesn't look terribly great for you, you identify a trend, call Liam's post a late bus and then run elsewhere. It's a nice backdoor if Liam did get Lynched (or NKed) and frankly what I would do as scum. Try and push the lynch of the townie, but make sure I'm covered in regards to my scum partner.

His iso 10 is a defense of Josh.

I don't think it was a defense as much as an explanation for treating Torquez and Josh differently. In retrospect Josh was the one guilty of doing what I mentioned in ISO 11 and 13 and I rather screwed that up just piledriving Torquez.

His iso 19 is kind of a defense combined with a distancing post.

In ISO 19 I mock Scott's poor logic. I make no mention of what Josh said and if anything defend DJ. This is a complete miss.

Perhaps it's confirmation bias, but I can easily read his iso 21 as coming from a frustrated scumbuddy.

Even you lack confidence on this point because it's complete nonsense and you expressed similar confused sentiment the post before this one. Josh had just come out of left field with bizarre behavior and I wanted an explanation. No explanation was forthcoming, a bandwagon started, I voted to lynch.

Of all your points the only one with any remote credibility is ISO 10 and I admit to screwing that read up (which is then amusing considering my arguments in 11 and 13).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

note the passive ability of a Gunsmith investigation modifier.

D_J forgot to fakeclaim that part.

Already did last night when you were pushing for a claim of any other passive ability.

I'm trying to think if there's a way to break the setup, but if so I'm not coming up with it. I'll keep thinking on this issue, but please don't anyone speculate on this topic unless you've think you've got an absolutely perfect setup though.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Erm, my role doesn't clear Adel. It only tells me if the person I targeted targeted a person with an ability. DJ claimed Liam's kill, and Adel doesn't seem to dispute this. Therefore, if Adel were mafia, she must have targeted semioldguy, who was a vanilla townie and had no abilities. This would have returned 'no motion'.

You're almost certainly reading the PM wrong though I'll grant that it's not as clear as it should be.

"If $Target targeted a player with an ability" - almost certainly the "with an ability" refers back to the targeting and not as a modifier of the second player.

@Mod: Please confirm the above is the correct interpretation

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

In terms of my experience the one game I've played as a serial killer had three mafia. Personally I believe this to be better balanced because of the possibility of the SK killing mafia, though it requires the SK to be given abilities beyond a kill. I've heard others say that 2 mafia/1 SK is more common or better balanced, but I'm not sure where this belief comes from, but it's certainly repeated if not true.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And given that fact here are the relevant facts...

Don has claimed credit for the Liam kill. No one has counterclaimed the kill and thus we can conclude that Don is responsible for it. The only question is whether or not he is a vig as he naturally claims or is he is a SK.

Adel is effectively confirmed town. There might be some backdoor methods where this isn't true, but they have such low probability that they verge on the completely improbable. Either JVW is mafia and this is the last mafioso or JVW is town in which case we know that Adel did not make the kill last night. Since someone did make the kill he is obviously innocent.

~~~

I think the best play is to make sure we don't end up in a case where a no lynch becomes the optimal play or at least a consideration and that means we have to lynch Don. I actually don't think Don is the SK, I'm somewhere around 75% sure he actually is a vig, but that's still too large of a percentage to risk having him around. This is also tempered by the fact that we can essentially put confirmed town Adel into LYLO which gives us worst case a 50/50 proposition and considering the shiny titles above his name hopefully that percentage is much higher.

Thus my plan is as follows:
Lynch DJ (to eliminate the possibility of a SK and a 1/1/1 sortof~LYLO)
Muh protects Adel (so that even if Muh is scum he cannot kill Adel and if he actually is a doc then he actually protects Adel)
JVW motion detects ??? (This is actually pretty irrelevant given that we're assuming town Adel makes it to LYLO, which means if JVW makes LYLO then he's going to say the other person is scum regardless of JVW's alignment and have a result to back that up or no results)

I expect Don to vote me because of this because acting irrationally is what he does, but I'd like everyone else's thoughts on the matter.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

flaw in your plan which lets you win as scum is muh protecting adel. adel could be mafia ninja. muh needs to protect jvw. jvw watches me.

you should be lynched. you are the least confirmed vanilla.

adel: are you trying to be annoying? i don't link. i think i may have tried it once or twice, but its not how i roll.

vote: ddd

good call. but its not irrational. lynching me hurts our chances of winning. read internal struggle for reference. there is zero evidence of sk.

Under my plan if I was scum, I still have to kill either muh or JVW and can't touch confirmed town Adel. Which sends us to LYLO with me pointing a finger at the other person with confirmed town Adel deciding things for us. This is the exact same scenario that muh-scum and JVW-scum would face. It is not an auto-win for anyone.

Adel can't be a mafia ninja because there is no modifier for that effect listed among the modular roles.

There are three players who are unconfirmed as town/mafia and you who is unconfirmed as town/SK. The fact that I'm vanilla is irrelevant as you are according to you, merely bulletproof and JVW's alleged ability is basically useless now because of the confirmation of Adel. The only people we can't afford to lynch are Adel (town) and muh (to protect Adel).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Don, please tell me how JVW's investigative role would actually help this town at this point.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Don, please tell me how JVW's investigative role would actually help this town at this point.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Don, please tell me how JVW's investigative role would actually help this town at this point.

he can watch the guy who still has a bulletproof vest to confirm that he is town. he can watch the doc to make sure the doc is protecting him and not murdering someone else.

No, he can confirm that the guy with the bulletproof vest isn't targeting anyone that night. The possibility that you are a bulletproof SK who held fire still exists and as a bulletproof SK making a 1/1/1 LYLO basically means you win, which doesn't look good for how you're pushing so hard here.

And he cannot make sure the doc is doing anything, he can only target the doc and make sure the doc is targeting someone. The motion detector knows nothing about alignment, ability or target, just that player1 is targeting someone else with an ability.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

maybe i am misunderstanding the role. rereading sample pm:

so, if jvw's target does not target a power role, then the result is "no motion"?

if that's the case, then adel is so far from confirmed that its not even funny.

semioldguy was killed, right? he was vanilla, right? so if adel killed him and jvw watched, this would return a result of "no motion", right?

so ddd saying that adel is "confirmed" is tremendously untrue, right?

so the guy trying to rid the town of a "useless" town power role to save a "confirmed" townie for lylo is claiming "vanilla". rrriiigghhht...

vote stays. what are your thoughts on that adel?

God damn, you're dumber than a box of hammers, Don. This was just covered. I explained why this is the wrong interpretation in 565 and the mod confirmed it 568.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

No, he can confirm that the guy with the bulletproof vest isn't targeting anyone that night. The possibility that you are a bulletproof SK who held fire still exists and as a bulletproof SK making a 1/1/1 LYLO basically means you win, which doesn't look good for how you're pushing so hard here.

and so we're not going to address the possibility of investigation modifiers? interesting focus.

So your theory is that we just had a mass claim and that optimal strategy is to assume that a pro-town player lied about their claim giving incomplete information. I revise my previous statement from box of hammers to bag of rocks. Or are you still assuming that Adel is a "mafia ninja" when that modifier doesn't exist in this game, per the semi-open setup. I revise bag of rocks to gallon of milk.

And he cannot make sure the doc is doing anything, he can only target the doc and make sure the doc is targeting someone. The motion detector knows nothing about alignment, ability or target, just that player1 is targeting someone else with an ability.

he can make sure the doc is doing what he's supposed to do and not murdering anyone. but this is not what you state the motion detector does. please clarify this.

either jvw has a role similar to "tracker" or not. if he can only see power roles, then it makes perfect sense for the guy who claimed vanilla to want him dead.

He does not have a role similar to a tracker, JVW's alleged role shows ONLY if players1 uses ability x to target player2, it does not tell JVW what the ability was, it does not tell him who he targeted it only says "Yes - player 1 targets someone with something" or "No - player 1 did not target anyone".

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

845 3 ---

DDD, please tell us about this game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12257

The setup was actually two scum and a cult mentor and then cult mentee.

We actually had a scenario vaguely like this in terms of concept. We were in a four person MYLO with Don with Don having a cop innocent on him. However, there was still a slim possibility that Don was a mafia godfather so we still no lynched over Don's strenous objections because it's bad policy to attempt to outguess the mod, Don was NKed and we (the town) won the game. Here we sit with the possibility that Don is a bulletproof SK and even though it might actually be likelier that he is a vig, it doesn't make sense to outguess the mod as to whether or not Don is a vig or SK, we should eliminate the possibility that he's an SK that can auto-win in LYLO by lynching him, simplify the game and get a confirmed townie (as far as I can tell) to LYLO.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

845 3 ---

DDD, please tell us about this game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12257

The setup was actually two scum and a cult mentor and then cult mentee.

We actually had a scenario vaguely like this in terms of concept. We were in a four person MYLO with Don with Don having a cop innocent on him. However, there was still a slim possibility that Don was a mafia godfather so we still no lynched over Don's strenous objections because it's bad policy to attempt to outguess the mod, Don was NKed and we (the town) won the game. Here we sit with the possibility that Don is a bulletproof SK and even though it might actually be likelier that he is a vig, it doesn't make sense to outguess the mod as to whether or not Don is a vig or SK, we should eliminate the possibility that he's an SK that can auto-win in LYLO by lynching him, simplify the game and get a confirmed townie (as far as I can tell) to LYLO.

why don't you think that he might be mafia?

Because it seems pretty ludicrous for mafia to claim a kill like that, given that a vig counter-claim basically guarantees them a loss. And even if there is no counterclaim they still have to deal with suspicion of being an SK. It basically makes no sense for scum to go down that road even for a gallon of milk like Don.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So your theory is that we just had a mass claim and that optimal strategy is to assume that a pro-town player lied about their claim giving incomplete information. I revise my previous statement from box of hammers to bag of rocks. Or are you still assuming that Adel is a "mafia ninja" when that modifier doesn't exist in this game, per the semi-open setup. I revise bag of rocks to gallon of milk.

no. you're missing the point. accusing player a of being sk without any plausible evidence is as useful as accusing player b of having an "investigation modifier". they are both "equally" silly. yet you choose one over the other. the one you choose castrates town if you are wrong by lynching a bulletproof player who has done an excellent job uncovering the scum team.

We didn't have any "plausible evidence" in Amished Mafia that you were a Mafia Godfather either, but that wasn't a risk we were willing to take either. There is absolutely no evidence that anyone has any sort of modifiers to their abilities, if they're town there's no reason for them not to claim them, there is no "ninja" modifier and if they're scum then their primary ability is non-existant anyways. There is however a distinct possibility that you are a SK, you can try and explain it away but the fact that your night actions and statements in the game don't align is extremely suspicious.

He does not have a role similar to a tracker, JVW's alleged role shows ONLY if players1 uses ability x to target player2, it does not tell JVW what the ability was, it does not tell him who he targeted it only says "Yes - player 1 targets someone with something" or "No - player 1 did not target anyone".

yes. so he can, in fact, target either myself or muh and make sure we are doing what we should be. the point is moot if you are lynched because you are the final scum. your ad hom proves that to me. i have played with you a few times now and you have never insulted me in such a way. if you were so confident you would be okay with your own lynch today because you are vanilla and you are basing your idea of lynching me off of mathematical calculations to give town a chance to win. why should you be kept alive instead of me?

Muh will show "motion" whether he is scum or not because of his claim. It might force you not to fire if you have that ability, but that still leaves the same paradox for the town. JVW's role has literally no use in terms of bringing new useful information to a three person LYLO. I have been uncomplimentary to you in the past, but you're right I've never been this mean. Because in previous games you just do your own thing regardless of whether it makes any sense but you could at least argue it's your own version of tactics, in this game you've blatently ignored the actual facts at hand.

As to why I should be kept alive instead of you? Because there's no possibility that I have a third party win condition. By eliminating the a killing role and one that might have a third party role we make sure that this doesn't end up being LYLO (mislynch+two NKs) and we simplify the game drastically. By letting you live there exists a ~15-20% chance that you steal the win away from the town, by lynching you we put that percentage back into the town's advantage. It's time to stop debating this with you and move the game along because you're not bringing anything new or useful to the conversation.

Vote: Don_Johnson

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

There is absolutely no evidence that anyone has any sort of modifiers to their abilities, if they're town there's no reason for them not to claim them, there is no "ninja" modifier and if they're scum then their primary ability is non-existant anyways.

you seem to deny the very real existence of possible "investigation modifiers". why?

Let's count the assumptions you have to make for your theory to be credible.

You have to assume JVW is town. You have to assume that JVW told the general truth about his role BUT then lied about the specifics despite doing so being completely sub-optimal play in a mass claim situation AND despite the fact that Adel had been harping on getting you to claim every little last bit of your role.

There is no reason to make any of those assumptions on their own, let alone to string them together.

There is however a distinct possibility that you are a SK, you can try and explain it away but the fact that your night actions and statements in the game don't align is extremely suspicious.

what doesn't align? how does one kill in three nights amount to evidence of sk?

Let's see there was a mafia roleblocker, a dead macho doc and another claimed macho doc. Plenty of roles that would stop one or more kills from going through and that ignores the option of not firing to hide your presence. Considering you have claimed a killing role it's certainly viable that you are a SK instead of a Vig.

Muh will show "motion" whether he is scum or not because of his claim. It might force you not to fire if you have that ability, but that still leaves the same paradox for the town. JVW's role has literally no use in terms of bringing new useful information to a three person LYLO.

false. jvw can win the game for town.

Bullshit, I've torn apart this claim at every turn and you just keep saying it regardless to the fact that it's not true. You have yet to lay out a scenario which accounts for every credible scenario where merely keeping JVW alive can give the town an auto-win.

As to why I should be kept alive instead of you? Because there's no possibility that I have a third party win condition.

again. patently false. you may very well have fakeclaimed. also, your win condition doesn't need to be "third party" to endanger town.

Conceded, I "could" be a survivor or something else ridiculous. But since you've claimed one of the two N3 NKs and that makes no sense as mafia which means you're either pro-town or third party which means that any other threat to the town is almost certainly mafia.

By eliminating the a killing role and one that might have a third party role we make sure that this doesn't end up being LYLO (mislynch+two NKs) and we simplify the game drastically. By letting you live there exists a ~15-20% chance that you steal the win away from the town, by lynching you we put that percentage back into the town's advantage. It's time to stop debating this with you and move the game along because you're not bringing anything new or useful to the conversation.

disagree.

What an astute analysis.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

an investigation modifier according to the sample pms is a passive ability that any player can have. how is his claim "sub-optimal"?

Fucking fuck.

Unvote: Don_Johnson

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

im not taking my vote off you

I didn't expect you to, doing something like that would require you to have more cognitive power than a goldfish and I've never seen it demonstrated that you have such capabilities.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

an investigation modifier according to the sample pms is a passive ability that any player can have. how is his claim "sub-optimal"?

Fucking fuck.

Unvote: Don_Johnson

why did you unvote?

Because my theory was based around getting a completely confirmed town-you into endgame. I missed the very generic "investigation modifier" in the list of roles which while unlikely still means you can't be considered confirmed. It might still be the best play to lynch DJ, but it's not the optimal "no doubt in my mind" play.

~~~

Also, potentially great catch in regards to CML's posts there.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Adel if DJ didnt kill liam then who did. Try thinkin logically

I have to say, regardless of context, this might be the funniest thing I've ever seen on mafiascum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: Don_Johnson

As you said, it's you or me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yeah, my play wasn't fantastic but basically any time I wasn't pushing for Torquez to die on D1 the game would slow down and stall so as terrible as my arguments mostly were I just kept pushing them for the sake of activity.

I could be mistaken, but I think Adel picked up on that on the last day and rightly figured it was a straight pro-town move.

I think my theory regarding DJ was right (that you've got to lynch the claimed killer in that scenario to prevent a possible Mexican Standoff and to possibly the win game as it did here), but I wasn't getting anywhere with my arguments and frankly I trusted Don to put his foot in his mouth enough that it was the smarter play to just shut up and let Don get himself killed.