Not reading your role PM

[Raskol]

It's not a valid strategy because it's not even a strategy. It's a way to postpone your own entry into the game until night one/day two. If you don't know what your role is, you're not even playing the game.

Good thing it's so easy to prevent---mods just have to require that players confirm with their rolename via pm.

[Raskol]

Your argument is that said information is a detriment because it makes you play differently. But that's the whole point of having it so that you do play differently.

That's a good point. The best play as mafia

isn't

to play exactly as you would if you were town---not even close. You have to play as antitown as you can, but in such a way that people

don't realise

that it's antitown. As mafia, one of your goals is to look town, but you have others. You have to hunt down power roles (especially investigators), incriminate innocents, confuse people, and generally control the game as best you can. If you don't read your role pm, you get a free pass on looking town (at least, to the degree that you're not simply scummy by default as a player), but you completely give up the opportunity to do all the

other

things you should be doing as scum. The only way that's beneficial to you is if you're a poor enough player that you can't pursue a scum agenda while still looking town.

Even ignoring 'spirit of the game' type arguments (which is I suppose what you're calling the

fact

that not reading your role pm means you're essentially not playing), not reading your role pm limits you to mediocre play at best, as scum. A similar thing can be said if you're a power role---hiding the fact that you're a power role is only half the story there, too.

Also, I'd have to say that I very much doubt that even the supposed benefit of not reading your role pm (always playing just like you would as vanilla) actually holds. As vanilla town, you see, you know you're town, and you know you're

not

scum and you're know you're

not

a PR and that knowledge affects your behavior and influences your decisions. When you haven't read your role pm, I'd imagine the uncertainty involved would have an effect on your play---you won't really play exactly as you would if you were a vanilla townie.

[Raskol]

It's not really hard to say "I don't know what I am, so I'll try and scumhunt until I do."

No, but my point is that there are differences in your play that will come out subconsciously. The only reason (I imagine) that you think not reading your role PM is a good idea is because you believe the knowledge will affect your play, unconsciously and whether you like it or not, in ways that could be bad if you're scum or have a PR---but what I'm saying is, not knowing you're town (and especially, not knowing you're vanilla town) will make you play differently than you do as town, just as surely and unavoidably as knowing you're not town will.

I'm still not decided how I feel about this practice from a mod's perspective. I like players to have freedom, but at the same time, if EVERYONE decided to play in this manner the game would be completely non-functional on Day1. I will most likely combat such tactics with a prevelance of roles that would greatly benefit from reading their PM pre-game rather than flat out blacklisting players.

If I were to mod a game, I'd prevent this 'tactic' by requiring players to pm me their role name and win condition in order to confirm. Players retain their freedom not to play in games with such rulesets

[Raskol]

I don't see the difference between being a townsperson blind to everyone else's alignments, and an outside player reading the game to try and figure out the alignments of the players in that game. Both roles are just as blind to the rest of the setup, and thus both would scumhunt one in the same. I feel I do my best scumhunting the more detached I feel from the game (this doesn't imply boredom during a game).

Well, they differ in at least one way: one of them knows the role of at least one of the players.

Aside from that, playing the game like an outsider would read it is not even close to the same thing as playing as a townie---so if you want to say that not reading your role pm makes you play like someone who isn't in the game, you're making my point for me. Being completely blind is the opposite of what you should be going for, as one of the biggest factors affecting townies' behavior is exactly the certain knowledge that they are town. If you don't know you're scum, you might be able to avoid unconscious influences that will make you drop scumtells, but likewise, if you don't know you're town, you will avoid just as much the unconscious influences that would make you drop towntells. It's exactly the same situation and you can't claim you'll have your cake and eat it too. If lack of knowledge affects your play, it will do so both ways (while also preventing you from using any kind of role-specific tactic that may have been able to benefit you).

[Raskol]

Being completely blind is the opposite of what you should be going for, as one of the biggest sources of towntells is exactly the certain knowledge that you yourself are town. Without that, no, you will not play as a townie would.

This is a complete reach here. What kind of player is going to say "I might be a townie but I haven't read my role PM." Of course anyone in the game not having read their PM is going to play as a townie by default.

No, they'll play as a role-uncertain player by default.

Let me put it this way: we have three people thinking about crossing the border: a person who knows they have drugs in their car, a person who knows they don't have drugs in their car, and a person who knows only that they have about a 25-33% chance of having drugs in their car.

Do you think any of these people will act exactly the same as any of the others? Do you think their thought processes will be the same?

[Raskol]

Ha, so you think being scum in a forum game will have similar ramifications to a persons life as going to prison for drug trafficking?

No, I don't. But the situations differ only in degree, not in kind.

Back to your original point. What are these town tells of "exactly certain knowledge" that said player is a townie?

First of all, what I meant was, that when you're a townie, your certain knowledge that you yourself are a townie affects your play, not that there are any towntells you'll give off that will give other players certain knowledge that you're town.

People are for the most part pretty risk-averse, and so I think it's likely that knowing there's a significant chance that they're either scum or a PR will make someone tend to "play it safe" in all the ways that scum and PRs do, and VTs (sometimes) don't.