Not reading your role PM

[Yosarian2]

The "spirit of the game" argument holds no water. Strategically, it's far better not to read your role PM. We're not talking about ethics, morals, or whatever, we're talking about strategy. All's fair in love and mafia.

That's wrong on both counts. It's clearly much better for you to read your role PM, unless you're quite bad as a scum player, and even if you are then it's still better in the 75% of the time you're a town player. If you're half decent as a scum player, then you're still much better off knowing that you are scum and knowing who your scum partners are then you would be not knowing.

As for the second thing, the entire point of mafia is that you are going to try to read how people are acting and try to figure out their motivations and their own win condition from that. If people don't even know their own win condition, then it makes day 1 a massive waste of time.

So it's both bad strategically, and also allowing that is very bad for the game of mafia itself.

[Yosarian2]

The "spirit of the game" argument holds no water. Strategically, it's far better not to read your role PM. We're not talking about ethics, morals, or whatever, we're talking about strategy. All's fair in love and mafia.

That's wrong on both counts. It's clearly much better for you to read your role PM, unless you're quite bad as a scum player, and even if you are then it's still better in the 75% of the time you're a town player. If you're half decent as a scum player, then you're still much better off knowing that you are scum and knowing who your scum partners are then you would be not knowing.

As for the second thing, the entire point of mafia is that you are going to try to read how people are acting and try to figure out their motivations and their own win condition from that. If people don't even know their own win condition, then it makes day 1 a massive waste of time.

So it's both bad strategically, and also allowing that is very bad for the game of mafia itself.

The second point is the only point that holds any water whatsoever.

The first point is wrong entirely.

How so?

Personally, the information I get about the game from my mafia role PM is incredibly useful. That's actually the main reason I get lynched a lot less as scum then as town, is because of the information I have about the game when I'm scum.

[Yosarian2]

If everyone played like you, how would you know what you are lynching? There would be no tells. Day 1 would be a complete popularity contest, random phase, or battle of who is least stupid

This is pretty much Day 1 in a nutshell. The only difference is that sometimes you can draw information from all of the crap that goes on after the fact. If noone's reading their PM, it's of little value.

That's not at all what day 1 is.

[Yosarian2]

Well, let's take a look at why the first point is wrong. Realistically, the only thing your role tells you is alignment and ability, neither of which is necessary to know on day one. The other flavor information will never, ever get utilized on day one, and instead is part of the game mechanics that tend to get passed over until later in the game (usually day 2 or day 3).

I'm not talking about the flavor information. I'm talking about who your scum partners are, and, by extention, who the town is, if there's only one scum group.

This is incredibly useful information. By knowing who the town is and who the scum is, you can act in a way that will EITHER help your side more then you could without that information, or in a way that will make you look more pro-town then you possibly could without that infromation, or sometimes even both.

If I'm town, and there's a shitty case on player A, I'll probably defend him against it. If I'm scum, and there's a shitty case on player A and I know he's town, I'll probably defend him ineffectually, so he'll get lynched anyway but I'll look good in the process; or else I'll act in such a way so he gets lynched without me taking any blame for it. If I'm scum, and there's a shitty case on player A and I know he's my scumbuddy, I might defend him if I know I can win, or I might bus like a mofo and get tons of town credit for it.

That's a simplification, of course; it depends on a lot of factors, like who else is in the game and what kinds of scum tells they look for.

But in general, if you want to look pro-town, and you're good enough to not make obvious tells or connections, it's quite helpful to know who the town and the scum are.

While, on the other hand, if I am pro-town, I'll often take bigger risks on day 1 to get more information. lt works, but doing that as scum as foolish, since it increases your odds of getting lynched.

I can establish myself as a pro-town player regardless of my alignment on day one instead of beginning to reveal tells.

Even if you can act just like a townie without reading your role PM, that just means that, all else being equal, you come out of day 1 on about the same level of pro-townie-ness as the 9 other people who actually do have a pro-town role PM. That's not much of an advantage.

[Yosarian2]

I dunno, I think this is too gross of an oversimplification to take it seriously... It's still more worth it in the long run to look like a townsperson on day one, regardless of who's who. Other than "I might bus my scumbuddy or defend him," how does your strategy differ whether or not you've read your role regardless?

In order to properly bus a scumbuddy and do it in such a way so you won't be accused of bussing, it actually helps to know that he is your scumbuddy.

Likewise, if you know who the scum are and what positions they have staked out, it's much easier to figure out how to manipulate the town in order to reduce the chances of any member of your scumteam ever being lynched, in a way that won't make you look bad.

Plus, especally in mini games, I really think the most of the time the easiest and best way for scum to win is to do a "1-2-3 mislynch" and win on day 3 with the whole scum team intact. It's just easier to control the situation then then to try to set up a favorable 3 player endgame. But in order to do that reliably, you have to start manipulating the town and the game right from the start of day 1.

It is. Think of it this way...

When I act like a townsperson day one, I've formulated my suspicions and determined a specific set of people who have acted like townies and scum. With that determined, I now have an idea of who I plan to attack in future days and who I plan on defending, which is where most of the competitive advantage comes from.

Why can't you do that as scum?

In fact, if you do that as scum, and do it knowing who the scum actually are, your results will generally be better.

Granted it might be a little harder to do that as scum without making a mistake, but it's quite doable.

[Yosarian2]

No, I don't think doing that is against the spirit of the game, Adel.

For that matter, I don't think lying and claiming you haven't read your role PM is against the spirit of the game, only actually not reading your role PM.

[Yosarian2]

For that matter, I don't think lying and claiming you haven't read your role PM is against the spirit of the game, only actually not reading your role PM.

If someone claims to not have read their role pm, then

1) They are telling the truth and all reads on the player up to the point they confess reading their role pm is null

OR

2) They are lying and does not have a town win condition

OR

3) They are lying and are a VI

In all 3 scenarios, the town is better off lynching the player.

Yes, that is entirely correct, I've made the exact same argument myself in games. At the very least the town needs to pressure the person until they read their role PM, and most likely until they roleclaim to demonstrate that they did, at that point.