Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[Papa Zito]

Ohnoes, this started.

Be back soon, with Chinese food, to see what brilliance has spawned ITT.

Also, for myriad reasons, especially for the lulz, and not caring whether RVS has ended yet or not:

vote: Amished

[Papa Zito]

1) AGar: Why do you only want PZ to come in? So you can 2fac him like you always do?

wut

Yo yo yo!

Shoot, 3 people in this game I've played with *shifty eyes*

Vote: Papa Zito

Oho!

unvote: Amished
vote: AGar

Wait, no, there's scum here.

unvote: AGar
vote: SerialClergyman

[Papa Zito]

Oh also, since we've left RVS and I have no reason to really suspect Papa Zito right now:

Unvote

That's because I'm town, as usual.

SerialClergyman is totally scum though.

Also @PZ: I have a lot of stuff to say to you in a bit. :glare:

[Papa Zito]

^^^ I think that would be too much awesome for one thread.

Moar SC votes. Let's get a wagon rolling.

[Papa Zito]

Oooh, vote counts come in nifty boxes. Though SC's name is wrong. And Troll's.

So VP, I've changed my vote just as much as Amished has, and I even did it before he did. Why didn't that get a mention? What makes his vote-hopping worse than mine?

[Papa Zito]

[1]@PZ-Because you seem intent on staying in RVS for as long as possible and [2]I have you on auto ignore at the moment. Honestly, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head much about you at this point. [3]If you're ready to get serious, then I'll start paying attention to you.

1. RVS is the best part of the game.
2. ORLY?
3. Would you classify my SC vote as serious or non-serious? Also, would you classify my questions to you as serious or non-serious?

[Papa Zito]

I assure you the SerialClergyman wagon is SRS BSNS. As are my questions to you. Putting someone on /ignore is scummy BTW. I'd swap my vote but I don't want to hurt a fledgling wagon.

[Papa Zito]

Catching up. I've skimmed the thread but I need to really read it.

I can't believe how hung up you kids are about the intro SC thing.

Let me rephrase it then. I think PapaZ doesn't have a case, and even if he does it is 'meh'.

hurp durp it was page 4. I know I'm good but damn, everybody's expecting miracles. I voted him because we needed a wagon and he needed to stop talking theory.

If he doesn't have a case, then that is bad, because he lied.

lulz

Anyway reading now. Actually I need to post elsewhere then I'll come back.

[Papa Zito]

Think I'm hitting burnout. Wee.

Well, see, keep in mind that you attacked me for "ignoring" you and all you were bringing to the game.

I'd attack anyone for ignoring another player. It's plain antitown.

Turns out, I was correct in the first place that your "SRS BSNS" wasn't very serious.

False.

And yet you said you'd be happy to switch your vote to me if you weren't already on the very serious Serial wagon. Now you are trying to downplay it as just a bandwagon vote.

Way to spin. That's not what I said at all. SC tinged my radar with his gameplay shenanigans, so I picked him as my Day 1 bandwagon. Getting the town moving and starting up pressure on someone is indeed SRS BSNS.

My problem is I had an unexpected V/LA and wasn't able to keep the wagon going like I needed to. Feel free to blast me for that if you want.


Sidenote: VP's playing really tight here for some reason.

The attention on this is sigh, but it's gotten some interesting results.

So yes, PZ, you pretty much lied - at any rate, you've created a very wrong impression.

Are you sure I'm the one that created that impression? I'd love to hear how.

[Papa Zito]

I can haz PapaZ views on the game?

You can haz.

I'm not feeling this game at the moment honestly. But here's what I've got so far:

1. AGar - Townish so far. I feel like I can read AGar at this point in my career... we'll see if that's true.
2. Amished - He's seen right through VP's crap, and I like a lot of the other stuff he's posting too.
3. charlatan ekiM - No issues here. Let's see what charlatan does.
4. ODDin - I don't like how ODDin quietly agreed with VP but didn't move his random vote on ekiM to a player that he apparently agreed as scummy. To me he's waiting to see if a bandwagon materializes.
5. Ojanen - Nothing yet. Need moar.
6. Papa Zito - zzzzz
7. Raskol - Townie vibe from this quarter
8. Sando - Scummy. I haven't seen any scumhunting here.
9. Scien - Ditto ODDin question here. Other than that no issues.
10. SerialClergyman - People are attacking SC over playstyle nonsense and it's getting old. SC is townish at the moment.
11. VP Baltar - His twisting of what I said is bad, and like I said above he's not playing the way I'm used to, but his other content is good, so I'm conflicted here. I like his Sando attacks in particular.
12. Zorblag - I never can read Troll. Stay tuned.

unvote: SerialClergyman
vote: ODDin

[Papa Zito]

I'm not sure what "playing really tight" means. Can you explain what that means.

There's playing loose, and playing tight.

My problem is that you were making it out to be an actual serious wagon.

Jesus. Read plz. It was serious. I wanted that wagon. I pushed for it. I helped get it started. It was serious. Did you know it was serious? Yeah, it was serious. Hay VP, this just in - the SC wagon was serious. "How serious, PZ?" Why, pretty serious VP, that's how serious. Seriously serious. Serially seriously serious. I've typed serious so much it doesn't look like a word anymore.

Further, you acted like I was missing out on something by ignoring your points up to that point, and in reality I still don't see what I was missing. Attacking me over illegitimate reasons rings as scummy to me.

Announcing that you're ignoring someone is anti-town, end of. And yeah it's become blatantly obvious that you don't see what you're missing.

[Papa Zito]

I don't see what I'm missing from your posts. Yes, you said it was a serious wagon, but ffs the question is

WHY

. Explain that referencing your posts at that time and I'll be satisfied. It's not complex.

Why what? Why was it a serious wagon? I guess I'd have to ask what a funny wagon looked like.

I've seen a bunch of people here bitching about RVS. My actions in early game were precisely for that purpose - to help us get out of RVS. Troll doesn't like my opening and that's fine, but generally that's what I do, I find someone who does something a smidge off-color and I call down the wrath of Hell on them for it. Then I'm able to watch who joins, who doesn't, who picks sides, who stays on the sidelines, who calls me out for it, whatever. The difference this time is that I wasn't around to keep up the momentum.

Regardless though, starting a wagon on someone is

not

scummy or even anti-town, so your continual attack on this point is. Trying to railroad someone for playstyle is fail. Dig deeper.

[Papa Zito]

So, in light of the above, but mostly because of blatantly false accusations (against myself, as it happens - but I'm willing to risk being accused of OMGUS here), I'm going to:

unvote, vote: PapaZito

charlatan's stolen my thunder here. So read his (her? ambiguity!) post plz. Again, you're attempting to paint playstyle as scummy, and it's not, it's playstyle. You can not like it, but it's not scummy, and it's not like I've never done it before as town.

Anyway, I want to point out what is interesting about ODDin's diatribe. The things he cites were in the thread and known to everyone, including himself, before he made his quadruple post. What changed? My posts, vote and accusation. Why would he wait until after I attacked him to make these feelings known?

I'm willing to risk being accused of OMGUS here

Just because you say it first doesn't mean it's not true.

I'm not liking the double motivations here

lolwut. My reads are not allowed to evolve as the day goes on?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with the second set of quotes.

[Papa Zito]

ODDin, yes, I'm actively accusing you of OMGUS. I guess I'll try to be more explicit in my accusations against you from now on.

Ojanen, what's your opinion of Zorblag thus far?

[Papa Zito]

At this point, ODDin, yes.

In fact, it feels vaguely personal. Is there an elephant in the room that I don't know about? Do you by chance have some prior annoyance with each other? I get that vibe a little, and I think it will help me get a better read as we go on if I know.

Sorry charlatan, missed this. There's nothing personal from this quarter, I happen to quite like VP.

[Papa Zito]

God I hate being on defense.

I'd attack anyone for ignoring another player. It's plain antitown.

I thought you said it was scummy earlier? which is it?

It's antitown alone. It can be scummy in context. Hypothetical example: Someone makes a case on you and you ignore the player. In this instance, I'm asking you questions and you're flat-out telling me I'm full of crap and you aren't going to answer. I call scummy on that.

No. I don't understand why we are talking past one another here. You said you wagoned him for "gameplay shennanigans". What were those specifically?

I think it's because you're not reading what I said?

hurp durp it was page 4. I know I'm good but damn, everybody's expecting miracles. I voted him because we needed a wagon and he needed to stop talking theory.

I saw him doing theory discussion early. Cut it out, says I, with a wagon.

What made the wagon SRS BSNS to you?

Let me make it as clear as I possibly can, VP: any wagon, regardless of how it starts or who started it, is SRS BSNS.

If that's his accusation, then I'd love for him to flesh it out.

It's an observation, not an accusation. I'm observing that your playstyle here is different than what I'm used to. That's all.

[Papa Zito]

I just finished reading Lynch All Lurkers. Fun game.

Scien, I'd like your view on the Troll too plox.

[Papa Zito]

Deadline approacheth.

@Papa Zito, why do you think that Troll doesn't like the opening you used? Troll be largely indifferent towards it but Troll no recalls actually saying what Troll thought about it at any point, just that Troll found it something Papa Zito would do and that it no helps for a read on Papa Zito.

I misinterpreted your earlier remark, then.

Also, I'd appreciate a scumlist from you at your earliest convenience.

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zito, the deadline does draw nigh, yes. You should move your vote to someone who be more likely to be lynched.

I'm actually holding to this:

First off, Troll will be about at deadline. If moving Troll's vote will make a lynch happen then Troll will do it.

.... as well.

As far as Troll's scum list goes, Troll be willing to answer, but Troll first wants to confirm that you have seen and read the following posts: Post 90; Post 162; Post 242. If you be making this request because you think that Troll no has been giving town or scum reads throughout the game then you be the third to do so (after Amished and SerialClergyman) when Troll thinks that Troll has been one of the more active posters of suspicions as we go.

I have indeed read those posts, as well as everything else in the thread.

I'm making the request for a couple reasons. For one I want your suspicions as of the end of the day to be clearly laid out. Your last example was a hundred posts and 7 days ago. If things haven't changed then so be it, I'd still like to see an ordered list.

Secondly, I disagree wholeheartedly that Troll has been actively posting suspicions. When I read your posts dear sir I see a lot of observation and no analysis. Along with those observations I see copious amounts of fence-sitting, in the pattern of "I see X and Y, those could be slightly scummy but I'm not sure." Inb4 hypocrisy.

What I'm driving at here is that you happen to be rather high on my list of suspicions at this point, but I've been neither engaged enough nor active enough to really do anything about it. Which granted is entirely my fault. So the best I can do now is see if you'll stake out a position on something. If I've learned anything over the past few games it's to pay attention to my gut, and my gut's proximity sensors are going WOOP WOOP WOOP every time I read a Zorblag post.

It will make Troll sad though.

Ditto.

[Papa Zito]

I'm here now, watching Texans/Titans.

[Papa Zito]

Waiting till the last minute to take a stand on an issue like this be off. Based on the information we have about who you think be scummy it should be clear where your vote would go. If your suspicions have changed then getting them out sooner rather than later would be more helpful for the town.

Nice twist but no, it no be off. It's that I'm not particularly enthused with either wagon and I'm hoping for a last-second miracle.

NO U

Really? At what point did I become the measuring stick for your play?

Your lack of scumhunting is scummy. Simply letting the game flow around you is scummy. Not taking a real stand on anything is scummy. Your earlier deflection and your "I'm rubber you're glue" defense is scummy. When I came to these realizations is immaterial.

What would Papa Zito's scum list be?

ODDin
Troll
Sando

[Papa Zito]

Lawl SC. I'm not voting Amished.

[Papa Zito]

Go on, all the cool kids are doing it!

But more seriously - why set up a gambit then ignore the results?

Oh sorry, I forgot to answer this. The problem is that I didn't see it through, so I didn't really get any results. Normally I'd push that wagon along but I was away. :/

[Papa Zito]

It doesn't work in my mind, no.

Also, you won't get a claim, I think, he should be at work for another 4 hours.

Good point. You want to continue this or shall I hammer?

[Papa Zito]

No, that's not what I said at all. The accusation had a basis, and I've stated it several times. The plan failed because I have a life outside of MafiaScum at times.

Shocking, I know.

Where's Troll? heh

Fun fact: I'd have to check but I think this is my first hammer.

vote: Sando

[Papa Zito]

What a load of absolute, total bullshit. You're trying to push playstyle and V/LA = scummy? You're

still

trying to insinuate ("deliberately create a situation") that I did it for some antitown purpose?

I'm

really

hoping that you just wet your panties when I came out on you early and are still miffed about it, otherwise this has turned scummy and I'll have to take another look at you tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

deliberately

And there you go again.

I'm done here.

[Papa Zito]

SerialClergyman - Townsfolk - Murdered Night 1

lol scum

Anyways, to get things rolling:

vote: PapaZito

Mmhmm.

[Papa Zito]

Also, I do actually think that my case is pretty strong. But maybe it's just me.

It is just you, and you need to stop tunneling so hard.

vote: Zorblag

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zito, I'll be going back to our brief exchange shortly (I really hope tomorrow but I hoped that I'd be posting Saturday evening as well) and seeing if I can't clarify some things. You seem to be grumpy this game compared to how I've seen you play in the past and there are a couple ways I could take that. How much of a pain are you finding it to get on and play in this game right now?

Work is busy. But.

I'm finding this game ... nebulous? I can't find the right word. Something's way off here and I can't get a handle on it.

And I'm always grumpy when it's like this. By now I should have a couple solid town reads

at least

so I have people to work with and I don't have that at the moment.

Nothing about this post makes me want to move my vote, btw.

If you are indeed town, you have to grant the possibility that I am town. You cannot expect me to back off without providing any defence whatsoever, now can you?

Am I voting you? Also I have no expectations for your play. FREEDOM!!!1!

@VP
[WIFOM]
Both the PapaZ post and the Agar post I believe are pointing to the NK and saying "Hey, the scum NKed to push more suspicion at PapaZ". If they believe that way, ODDin coming in and immediately voting for PapaZ looks like scum continuing the plan.
[/WIFOM]

This is exactly where I'm coming from. It seems fairly obvious that they looked at us sniping back and forth at the end of Day 1 and decided to see if they could push for a mislynch today. I'm both honored and amused given my horrendous play thus far.

Though I'm less sure of the ODDin bit. It seems a little too blatant.

[Papa Zito]

Oh I forgot all about Raskol. <3 Raskol.

-I think ODDin's case on PZ is genuine (town read on ODDin). I don't think it's very convincing, but it feels genuine.

I agree.

I need to reread this mess and try to jumpstart something in my puny little brain. In the meantime ya'll's homework is to reread Zorblag in iso.

[Papa Zito]

(still owe a reread but I lack motivation)

Quick question to PZ, with the thing ODDin has a problem with:

4. ODDin - I don't like how ODDin quietly agreed with VP but didn't move his random vote on ekiM to a player that he apparently agreed as scummy. To me he's waiting to see if a bandwagon materializes.

Can you remember: were you referring with this to the early suspicion from ambiguous seriousness (starting iso 4) or the second wave after you said you didn't have a case (iso 11)?

See iso 8.

My deal on the ekiM vote thing is ODDin never once asked the guy a question or anything. Maybe "random" was the wrong word but the vote was made early in the game and just barely more justified than the one I put on SC. When it wasn't revisited and instead I was the target of his attention I figured that meant he'd found another prime suspect. So what if I rewrite it as:

4. ODDin - I don't like how ODDin quietly agreed with VP but didn't move his early abandoned vote on ekiM to a player that he apparently agreed

w

as scummy. To me he's waiting to see if a bandwagon materializes.

Maybe we can move past semantics now? Also fixed a typo.

blarg...this game needs a kick in the pants.

Vote: Zorblag

Dunno what to think of this.

[Papa Zito]

See iso 8.

Sorry, didn't get this. ODDin's (seems irrelevant)? Yours?

I talk about ODDin agreeing with VP but not switching a vote in my iso 8.

Unless I'm not understanding your question?

[Papa Zito]

It was after. I came back, explained the SC thing, VP posted some drivel, and ODDin sagely nodded his head to it. The End.

[Papa Zito]

I went and played in the snow and now I'm sick. It was worth it to make the snowman but goddamn. Make the screen stop moving.

Not Voting
Ojanen, Scien, Zorblog

This is fail.

Troll's trying to lurk to deadline.

PZ, your current top three scum suspects, please?

Also, what do you think about ABR/Amished?

Troll (obv)
Scien
ODDin

No issues with ABR/Amished at this point.

[Papa Zito]

PZ, what are your thoughts on the Raskol case I put forth? I think it's better than "fencesitting" against Troll.

I still owe this game a reread. If I weren't sick I'd have done it by now. I'll look at your case in context while I'm reading.

Also, what are your suspicions on Scien? He's bothering me a bit, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

I can't either, and last time I couldn't he was scum. He's good at playing the logical/clueless townie game.

Please expand.

*blows into thumb*

What AGar said.

One of {AGar, ODDin, VP Baltar} should be lynched today for not being on the Sando wagon.

lolwut

[Papa Zito]

Is my coming vote OMGUS? I'll let everybody else be the judge of that.

That's the second time you've done that this game. Is this normal for you?

That's not good enough. Do you just get vague gut reads on AGar, or what?

Or what. I've played in back-to-back games with him, one in which he was scum and one in which he was town. Unless he's drastically altered his behavioral patterns (possible!) he's not playing to his scum meta.

[Papa Zito]

Oh, and moar Troll votes. TIA.

[Papa Zito]

Again, I caught no probing in my direction yet, and yet I make your top3 list. Why, please.

And you're awfully nervous about it, aren't you?

VP, I saw Raskol do a lot of pushing at ekiM and SC before looking at Sando, so I don't buy your case.

Zorblag's big post didn't wow me.

[Papa Zito]

Dang right I am.

You are considering your all main suspects right?

???

Announcement: I'm finally rereading this mess over lunch. Be back soon with some stuff hopefully.

[Papa Zito]

???

I am on your top three and you haven't even talked to me this game. Does your top three mean anything? Or is it just there to fall back on later when you need to move your suspicions...

If you haven't talked to a person on your top 3 suspects... are you even really suspect of your top 3? Or are you just focused on one for the meantime?

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to wagon Troll?

I mean really.

Reread is done and my head hurts. Isos ahoy.

[Papa Zito]

???

I am on your top three and you haven't even talked to me this game. Does your top three mean anything? Or is it just there to fall back on later when you need to move your suspicions...

If you haven't talked to a person on your top 3 suspects... are you even really suspect of your top 3? Or are you just focused on one for the meantime?

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to wagon Troll?

I mean really.

Reread is done and my head hurts. Isos ahoy.

[Papa Zito]

^^Woops.

[Papa Zito]

And AGar's playing to his town meta?

Actually no.

Some iso's done.

I still want Troll dead but that's obviously not going to happen.

AGar

sounds

like his townself but it's hollow.

I'm worried about Ojanen.

ABR has made one big posted and coasted.

I'm less worried about Scien than I was.

unvote: Zorblag
vote: AGar

[Papa Zito]

I'm worried about Ojanen.

You've piqued my interest, anything concrete?

I wish I could say there was.

For one, I don't like how she's quietly been declared obv-town by the crew when she hasn't, when you look back, really done all that much. Most of her posts are zero content or asking questions interspersed here or there with meaty posts. But the meaty posts usually serve to justify a vote and then don't do much after that. Seems to be following wagons.

Let me give an example.

I'm trying to figure out Mr. Rampage. Suspicious of Amished slot, and I have a hard time reading ABR.

After this post, she goes off on ODDin and then AGar. ABR is never brought up again.

That kind of thing.

FOS: Papa Zito for the AGar part of post 580. Not sure what to make of the flip-flop. Could be busing if AGar flips scum, but then I'd be disappointed if AGar didn't lynched, so ... meh.

I just reread the thread. You really are playing a scum game atm.

[Papa Zito]

I posted a

very

gentle/hesitant FOS of you

I can't stop giggling.

[Papa Zito]

Lawl VP.

Was reading bits, saw this:

I find this pretty interesting, because I'm having a hard time getting a handle on Scien this game, too, and I find this comment surprising. The only game I've played with him was that newbie game I was only in for a day or two (PZ was in it, too). The one difference I've noticed is that Scien was worlds more intense in that game, very much up to speed and making arguments. However, I did not find him clueless at all then and was rather impressed with him overall. Do I misunderstand what you're saying here?

I've found him less "intense" as scum. As town he nitpicks the hell out of everything and doesn't let go. There's a lot more "yeah well maybe" in this game. Not that this is damning at all but it's like that itch on your back that you have to use the corner of a wall to scratch, and you end up looking like a moron.

By clueless I mean every townie is clueless as to who the bad guys are, and so they try to guess and put pieces of the puzzle together. He mimics this activity well as scum, I suspect because he's an uber-logical player.

[Papa Zito]

Zorblag, PZ and ABR-who are your suspects?

Troll
VP
Ojanen

Massclaim is fine since this town refuses to get off the fail train.

[Papa Zito]

PZ is very obv. scum btw.

OMGUS!

Better check that knee.

[Papa Zito]

I'm leaning toward having charlatan or ABR claim, due largely to ekiM and Amished. But I still want to finish my reread and get some stuff out of the way before we move forward.

lol you ponce.

You're voting me (still!) but you want someone else to claim first?

diescumdie etc

[Papa Zito]

zzzzzzzzzzz

[Papa Zito]

OLBYAAICBYSUIANRMS

I'm a VT. Gooo go gadjet Charlatan.

[Papa Zito]

lol charlatan. Sure, you're the only power role in the game.

Obviously we are in a mylo situation if scum are pulling this.

vote: charlatan

[Papa Zito]

Love to hear Troll's take on this development.

[Papa Zito]

Lol @ how PZ keeps throwing himself at Troll's feet.

Oh pshaw. I've been trying to get him lynched all game.

You are obv partner.

One more.

[Papa Zito]

Sigh.

Now I have to stay up late to deal with this crap.

Thanks a lot charlatan.

[Papa Zito]

They're going for the win. He (?) only needs to convince two townies.

[Papa Zito]

Yay I can go to bed then.

zzzzzzzzzzzz

[Papa Zito]

Oh look, charlatan's the only PR.

What we really have is a 9-3 mountainous setup with limited reveal so we don't realize we're in a mountainous.

Tomorrow I believe that I can make a strong case for his guilt even independently of the track result.

Yes, you have to come up with this

after

you figured out I was prob scum and a good track candidate, amirite?

Let's review what charlatan's said about the Big Z.

Iso 1 - Takes my side about the lying debate w/WWVPD
Iso 4 - Sees ODDin's point about the SC bandwagon ...
Iso 6 - ... but it's a silly thing to attack someone over
Iso 7 - Agrees with me re: Troll
Iso 11 - NK talk doesn't help
Iso 12 - Lists ODDin and ABR as top suspects; actually defends me in the ODDin piece
Iso 15 - Defends me vs. crypto; agrees with me that something is up with Scien
Iso 17 - Gets where I'm coming from re: Scien

And that's it. Other than a couple mild criticisms, we have a lot of agreeing and defending (buddying). Why would townie charlatan decide to track a player he wasn't suspicious of at all?

Well why didn't you claim straight away before we even started mass claiming? You waited and waited until everyone claimed before you did. That right there is not very pro-town.

Exactly. Townie charlatan would have argued against a massclaim and given a result to prevent another PR from being outed. Instead (s)he's quite content to find out what other jewels can be had in case the gambit goes south.

Eagerly awaiting the case on me.

[Papa Zito]

Troll also largely expects him to object to Troll's description of his play that but Troll no really cares.

XD

@Papa Zito, what is the name of your role in your role PM?

I'm firing a PM to the mod to ask if I can answer this question. I don't see why not but let's not lose on a modkill.

What were your cases on Troll, VP Baltar and Ojanen? How certain do you be about Crypto's alignment at this time?

I've got 30 minutes before a series of meetings eats up the rest of my day, so I'll get you these tonight.

@everyone, what role did you have in the aborted version of this game? Troll's role then was vanilla townie as well.

I'll include this question in my PM to the mod.

[Papa Zito]

Arrite, I got the go-ahead.

I didn't actually get a role name, per se. What I got was "Town."

I didn't keep my previous PM. I was vanilla townie there, but I had an "Item" - a bulletproof vest.

charlatan's 760 is about as poor as I expected it to be.

[Papa Zito]

[@ Zito] Saying we're mountainous (I learned a new term!), is nothing but an assumption. Are you suggesting that it is more likely mountainous than other possibilities Zito?

Also, I take it that you are holding to your VT claim Zito? Not holding anything back?

It's an assumption based on every claim made, except for our "Tracker" who I know is lying. I'm suggesting it is more likely mountainous than other possibilities yes.

I'm not holding anything back no.

Zito, why are you inclined to believe this is a mountainous game if you had a bulletproof vest in the first installment?

We're playing a different setup.

[Papa Zito]

We're playing a different setup.

Yeah...incorrect answer. Correct answer would be "because I'm not scum and didn't target anyone".

Scum confirmed.

Yeah. If only that made sense.

Of course I didn't target anyone. I don't have a night action. We're playing a different setup and I don't get my bulletproof vest anymore.

[Papa Zito]

Ok, apart from my initial point about what a town member would have responded...how does you not having a bulletproof vest indicate that we are more likely to have a mountainous setup than anything else? That's not exactly conclusive evidence.

There's not going to be conclusive evidence, VP. You know better.

Again, here's how I came to the conclusion.

1. The point of limited reveal is to hide something about the setup.
2. Nobody claimed a role-based action on Day 2.
3. Every claim, bar the scum's, has been VT.

If we're going to play the mod-guessing game, BigBear had to quickly turn a setup around so he picked a mountainous so there's no worry about PR balance issues. But I really don't care about this and just want charlatan lynched.

[Papa Zito]

Actually more to the point, trying to throw suspicion on someone based on them being the only person claiming a role is silly.

The only one, with a guilty to boot. What a lucky town we are.

You think that ignoring what in townie shoes would be a fake guilty, that it is suspicious that there is only one claim?

What's this in English?

[Papa Zito]

The only one, with a guilty to boot. What a lucky town we are.

Meh, the guilty is a side point, I agree. But why do you believe that a single person claiming is suspicious in its own right? You can't really point to your speculation on setup for the answer.

Dude, from where I'm sitting the only one to claim non-VT is scum. That's all I have for you. I can keep giving you the same answer over and over again but it's not going to get us anywhere.

Lol, that did suck. Ignore the guilty. Do you think it is suspicious that there is only a single person claiming? You seem to.

I guess hypothetically, if he claimed two results, and neither was a provable lie, would you still think that the fact that he is the only one claiming fishy?

You're forgetting that one of his results is a track on a vanilla townie. I

know

he's lying Scien, I don't have to speculate. This is basically the same stunt you pulled in that other game except with a Tracker twist. It is a provable lie, and normally I'd be all about trading my VT ass for a scum lynch, but the only reason for them to do this is if mislynching me wins them the game.

[Papa Zito]

Hey I'm here. Burned out but let me get some crap together.

[Papa Zito]

God, I really don't care at this point, but stupid site rules.

Let's start at the beginning.

I maintain that charlatown would have no reason to track me over other players, or even be a Tracker at all. My reasoning is as follows.

1. Charlatan's previous read on me was town.

I've given a list of posts related to me in 748. Those posts point to a charlatan town read on me. I say this because charlatan agrees with my PoV on several issues that people are attacking me over, and even goes so far as to defend me in a couple cases. In addition, he had to create a case today, meaning he didn't have one before. It makes no sense from a town perspective to track another town player.

2. Charlatan claimed a second suspect towards the end of Day 2.

1) ODDin.
2) Amished/Albert B. Rampage.

Given the town's poor lynching record, it makes far more sense for charlatown to target a scum suspect in order to get a good lynch the next day. The town wasn't in a position where we could afford experimental tracks to find that last remaining elusive scum player.

3. A track doesn't prove alignment in almost all cases.

Charlatan claims, despite posts contradicting this stance in-thread, that my read was "murky".

I thought I could solidify my murky read on you with a track.

The problem is that all kinds of things have to fall into place for a track to prove alignment. I would have to be scum

and

be the scum player to do the kill

and

not have the target be visited by a townie PR in order for this to work. In reality this is a crappy justification manufactured to fit the circumstances.

However, let's pretend for a moment that charlatan's just a major optimist and thinks that miracles happen. So why not...

I find this pretty interesting, because I'm having a hard time getting a handle on Scien this game, too, and I find this comment surprising.

...track Scien, who charlatan actually claims to have a "murky" read on? (sidenote: Why was it so hard to get a handle on Scien this game when charlatan already had a track on Scien, and charlatan was using tracks to figure out alignments?)

4. A townie PR with a guilty wouldn't allow massclaim to happen.

Charlatan was for a massclaim:

I agree with [massclaim], and I also think that it should probably be done soon, unless someone has serious and well reasoned objections.

Charlatan himself as a townie PR with a guilty would have well reasoned objections to massclaim: He would want to protect any other potential PRs from claiming and becoming targets. The correct play for our claimed Tracker would be to wagon me into oblivion and claim his info if necessary.

---

Now, to respond to his case.

Firstly, even had I not gotten a track result on him, I would have held him accountable for his AGar vote, and I'm frankly surprised it's not problematic to anyone else.

My AGar vote came after I reread the game, then reread people in isolation. I stated both in thread.

Yes, AGar was hollow. His scum self is highly guarded and defensive, his town self is far more carefree and offensive. In this game he was acting carefree-ish but I didn't see him push at anyone, just respond to posts. I felt like he was attempting to fabricate his townie meta, which he knew I was aware of. Maybe he was just burned out too.

His Sando hammer is particularly convenient; he has mentioned him in the margins of his play throughout the day in passing, and included him in a scum list along with ODDin and Troll, but despite his apparently high level of suspicion does not actually say a single word to Sando or respond to anything Sando has to say even once during the day.

1. There was nothing "convenient" about the hammer. It was done at deadline. I suppose your AGar hammer was convenient as well?
2. There were others pressuring him. They didn't need my help. You're arguing it's bad for the town to expand its scope?

I would argue that Zito was, in a sense, attached to the hip to SC at this point, and the nature of their interaction would require that he be involved with SC in upcoming days as well.

I had a town read on SC. Go back and look. And ODDin was the only one pursuing the BS point about the wagon, and I was ignoring him. Go back and look at that too. I wasn't "attached" at all.

In my experience, it is not uncommon for scum to want to whack someone in a position like that, as it frees them up to pursue other avenues of attack.

I was already attacking someone else. This is just false.

I thought his Scien interaction the next day was a little shakey, way too ready to support WIFOM in a manner that deflects suspicion:

People love to throw WIFOM around.

I made an off-comment about the NK. It was my interpretatin of what the NK was supposed to mean. For some reason talking about NKs is absolutely taboo on this site and I don't understand why. Until I do I reject the concept as stupid.

What's more important here are the living players. His interaction with Troll is something everyone should be looking at, especially as it feels a bit like spinning his wheels. Troll is something of a town leader, and Zito's accusations against him can be mostly boiled down to "you're fence-sitting."

Yes, everyone should be paying attention to Troll. He's not a town leader, he's sitting back and watching events just happen. If he's not scum he's 3rd party.


Basically, I want everyone to reread this case and look at the amount of speculation is in here, especially the "more important" part about living players which only mentions Troll and is a bunch of guessing about our alignments.

There's questions out there, hang on.

[Papa Zito]

crypto, ABR, Scien are prob town. crypto started bad but righted his ship.

VP is scum. Troll is the likely partner. I'm not sure about Ojanen.

@Papa Zito, how did the bullet-proof vest work in the previous incarnation of the game? Also you no delivered your thoughts on your prior scum lists or how confident you be about Crypto's alignment. Troll still be interested in those.

My current thoughts are up there. ^^^ Now that I have something concrete to work with I feel much better about them.

How did it work? I don't know, I didn't keep the PM. I'm not sure if it was one-shot or what.

With the aborted version also having limited reveal and you claiming an item there how you did come to this as first on the list of assumptions?

Was it? I never saw the original version of the game.

Holy crap!
I that must have been a mild earthquake right now with the house shaking very tangibly!

[Papa Zito]

Oh? Where did I explicitly state that I had a strong town read on you? Agreeing with you on theory topics is not the same thing, by the way.

You never explicitly said it. I never stated you did. Show me where I appear on a scumlist, or where you say your opinion of my alignment is "murky" before today.

No, what I said your town read on me was easily seen by your actions in-game. Take, for example, this.

1) ODDin. This stems primarily from his interaction with Zito, which feels vaguely contrived and overly reactionary.

You based your #1 suspect of the day on someone's continual attacks on me. To feel this way you must have had me as town being attacked by scum. This is not a "theory topic".

---

Then there's the bit about how proving alignment with a track is so inefficient and therefore I couldn't possibly have done it

No. I said to assume that a track would prove someone's alignment one way or another is sheer lunacy.

and how I should have tracked Scien since I didn't have a great read on him (I did)

Haha, can't keep your story straight now.

I find this pretty interesting, because I'm having a hard time getting a handle on Scien this game, too, and I find this comment surprising.

You made this comment D2.

---

It's really like Zito isn't even reading my posts.

I'm refuting them. Hooray for magical handwaving!

---

[1]Can't do two things at once? Really did not have a single suspicion re: Sando that had not been mentioned by anyone else? [2]Positive about the alignment of the others pressuring him, that their interaction with him was also genuine and to your benefit?

1. I had no reason to do two things at once.
2. Not at all positive about their alignments. That's one of the prime reasons I let do their thing and don't interfere... I get to a read both parties.

---

Your read was irrelevant in that regard. The fact that you considered the NK to be about you and him sniping back and forth at the end of Day 1 suggests that you didn't even agree with yourself here.

English. Do you speak it?

---

What? The comments I've made about reactions to the claim and your interaction with people is not part of a case against you.

Oh, that wasn't part of your case? lol okay then, your case was even smaller than I thought.

[Papa Zito]

I'm as fallible as any other player, and frequently re-evaluate my opinions, especially at the end of a day that hasn't gone as well as I'd like it to.

You mean like I did with AGar? Oh noes, there goes a hunk of your case.

---

[1]Again, I was not lying in the beginning when I thought you were likely town. [2]I simply decided I might be mistaken (and now know I was). [3]Even if that were not the case, the above statement would be false; scum just as often manufacture BS arguments for distancing/bussing purposes against other scum as they do against town.

1. Oh good, you've admitted it in thread now. This supports what I said.
2. This was NOT your argument. You said you tracked me to "solidify a murky read". Even though you just admitted to having a townie read on me. And even though, on Day 2, you admitted to having "a hard time getting a handle on Scien."
3. What reason did I have to distance a buddy? Was I in danger of being lynched and needed to protect myself? Was my buddy in danger of being lynched and I needed townie cred? Try to make this make sense from a Zito-scum perspective.

---

Right, remember when my result was that he targeted nobody? That didn't help my read of him one way or another until massclaim time, and even now it only slightly tips the scale in the favor of believing his vanilla claim.

So this is your story then.

Day 1: Zito's town. Dunno about Scien. Let's track him to figure out his alignment.
Night 1: Scien didn't do anything. Oh. Well that doesn't say anything about his alignment anyway.
Day 2: Zito's town. Dunno about Scien. Let's track Zito to figure out his alignment.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

---

Actually, I teach it. What about the above statement confuses you? I'll clarify.

Rephrase this:

The fact that you considered the NK to be about you and him sniping back and forth at the end of Day 1 suggests that you didn't even agree with yourself here.

---

If only upping the word count would entice you to roll over and come clean.

No, what it means is that you had to quickly manufacture a case when your alleged track didn't convince the town fast enough, and you couldn't really come up with much because goddamit PZ is actually town and fabricating cases is

hard

.

[Papa Zito]

I hate to be the kill-joy but I'm gonna /out for the next game.

This game I thought was going to start later than it did and I had taken on 4 NGs plus my regular life commitments right around when this started. I'm massively burnt out and just waiting for my last game I'm in to either kill me or end, whichever comes first then I'm gonna take like a month - two month break from mafia and evaluate my play. I've gotten worse as time went on.

this