Newbie 892 - The Future of Magic. Game Over! Mafia Win

[The Tracker]

Okay, first I want to thank Haylen for setting up a Wiki page for everyone who hasn't made one yet.

Second, since the flavor role is a sorcerer I'll use my level 11 Storm Sorcerer from my RL DnD game. Expect to be (harmlessly) lightning'd.

And third,

vote: Doctor

. Roleclaiming with a username is always scummy. And since there are no Trackers in this game, I circumvent the rule.

Oh, and nice to meet everyone.^^ Now let the RVS begin!

[The Tracker]

I am not impressed, good sir. When I activate my 6th level Daily Sparkform, I simply turn into a shower of sparks and move twice my speed. Tis fun.

[The Tracker]

Of course I assume you jest due to mentioning the RVS.

Indeed I do.

cause i'm sure at least one (SE) is a mafiascum

Mmm...I'm actually hoping this is an RVS vote because this is a very bad logical fallacy. Last game I was in a newbie and IC were scum. There are just so many combinations of scumbuddies that even when playing the numbers the SE's are just as likely to be scum as anybody else.

[The Tracker]

The IC is Yosarian2. Haylen just forgot to add the tags, but we definitely have an IC.

[The Tracker]

I played Mafia on another forum, but they basically used random lynches and Cop following to win. Needless to say, scum usually won. I played one Newbie game here so far.

[The Tracker]

@Yos: Terribly sorry. I really didn't know doing that in RVS could mix up the game like that. I'll be more careful in the future.

@Jack: No, it was a subforum of a voice acting board I was a member of a few years back. I have long since quit that site. I also played RL Mafia at camp about 10 years back, but that was random lynching unless a Cop claimed.

I'm from Ohio, which is in America. Oh, and I think I was suffering from 'overserious' my first game. XD I'm going to try to relax a bit more.

[The Tracker]

I'm not super concerned about those guys at this point, but they do need to hurry up and post. I mean, Newbie 877 could have gone much more smoothly if more people had posted, and we were scrutinizing Townies way more than we should have been due to some inactivity. I'll give 'em another day before I start suspecting them, though. Benefit of the doubt and all that.

Anyway, since the RVS is starting to end I'll

unvote

.

[The Tracker]

Well, I personally like the lynch all lurkers policy. Problem is, in a newbie game there are Townies that lurk because they 'don't know what to say'. Not an excuse, IMO, since it mixes up the game pretty good.

[The Tracker]

Prods'll probably be sent soon. There's not enough info right now to scumhunt, unfortunately. Guess we need to wait til later when we have more people on.

Votes may not pressure enough and they can ignore pushing. Best to get rid of them.

[The Tracker]

The Im all out of Fudge Vote count

Jackabomb: Easjo682
Dimaba: Doctor, Yosarian2
cdubs: LordChronos
RayFrost: Jackabomb
The Tracker: RayFrost, Dimaba

Not voting: cdubs

Deadline is 26th January 2010, 9pm England time.

Lots of Love,
Hayl

Hello hello everyone, sorry for missing the first 24 hrs of this.

@Dimaba and Cdubs

If either of you are active could we have reasons for why you are not interacting with the rest of the group?

No problem. I have a test coming up tomorrow that I had to study pretty hard for. I've been doing that + sleeping for the past 24 hours. The test'll be done tomorrow and I won't be lurking after that.

vote: The Tracker

Because I support RayFrost's reasoning.

2. seems to be attempting to bring support for the LaL[urkers] policy, which is terribly anti-town, since the town gets very little information from a lurker dying (easy mislynch, no connections to other players makes it low info, etc). He obviously knows about prods and replacements, so his support for LaL[urkers] is scummy.

3. He says there is not enough information to scumhunt, yet he does nothing to provide information to aid in scumhunting. Very " well, we can't do our job without information, but I'm not gonna put myself out there *baits somebody else to do so* " type of thing.

And I'll add a tiny thought of my own which I admit is farfetched.
Considering this...

Even just joking about a doctor, or anything like that, can give hints, either hints from the person making the joke, or hints based on how other people react to a joke.

... Tracker's joke about Doctor roleclaiming in his name could theoretically be an attempt to draw a reaction.

My my Dimaba, you certainly seem to be jumping on the vote right off the bat. Yeah, okay, Frost's reasoning makes sense but mind bringing some of your own ideas to the table instead of just following the SE?

@Yos: I unvoted since my vote wasn't serious. That is all.

@Frost: It wasn't. That's all I have to say about the RVS vote.

[The Tracker]

I'm ashamed of Yos2.

unvote

vote: tracker

1. Fakeclaiming in his name. ( )

2. seems to be attempting to bring support for the LaL[urkers] policy, which is terribly anti-town, since the town gets very little information from a lurker dying (easy mislynch, no connections to other players makes it low info, etc). He obviously knows about prods and replacements, so his support for LaL[urkers] is scummy.

3. He says there is not enough information to scumhunt, yet he does nothing to provide information to aid in scumhunting. Very " well, we can't do our job without information, but I'm not gonna put myself out there *baits somebody else to do so* " type of thing.

I'll start with 2. First, anti-town doesn't equal scummy. Besides, lurking is in and of itself anti-town, so really it all comes down to your personal feelings on the matter. I will not go with a policy lynch unless I see no better alternatives (which hasn't happened yet), and even then I would prefer we lynch someone who's more scummy.

Eh, depends on your view. When I posted that there was literally no one online to pressure and I had no useful reads from anyone else. It's just the time of day and I had already posted my thoughts enough. In short, there was nothing to stimulate conversation at the time.

[The Tracker]

Right. Thanks for the advice.

[The Tracker]

However, this may not satisfy ray. Even by my reckoning, you still have some explaining to do for his second point. What made you think Lynching lurkers who haven't posted would be a good idea?

I said I would support it if it came down to it. I never said it was a good idea. Yes, it clears out a valuable read for the town and I'd much rather be lynching someone who's more likely scum, but again if there are no better alternatives I would support a policy lynch. Supporting a play and thinking it's a good play are two different things. I consider a policy lynch a last resort, nothing more.

[The Tracker]

See, what you're doing is attempting to read between the lines. Let's use an analogy: I like George Bush. Is voting for George Bush a good idea? No.

My point is, I never NOT called it a last resort. I made a relatively vague statement and got more specific when I started being attacked for it. I said I liked it, but then if you notice I said there was a glaring problem with it, which was following that policy and relying on it to find scum can and will lead to a mislynch.

[The Tracker]

Votes may not pressure enough and they can ignore pushing. Best to get rid of them.

I assume you mean this? I was posting a general rule of thumb. Obviously if I thought there was a need for the last resort, I would have pointed out one of the lurkers and started attacking him. Or I would have at least voted. I wasn't trying to steer a lynch, I was posting a personal feeling.

[The Tracker]

The mehmehmeh Vote count

The Tracker: RayFrost, Dimaba
Jackabomb: Easjo682
cdubs: LordChronos
RayFrost: Jackabomb
LordChronos: Yosarian2

Not voting: cdubs

Deadline is 26th January 2010, 9pm England time.

Lots of Love,
Hayl

Okay, sounds fair. I guess I've just always been in favor of strong arm tactics, and I guess that transfers over to Mafia in a way.

[The Tracker]

Hows abouts we lynch tracker and see what we can dig up from the site we found him at. (wiki + obituary reference = win)

Got sniped by this. Trust me Ray, lynching me will not help. Also, since I had a different user on that site and played all of three games (got fed up with the random crap) that won't give you much information either.

[The Tracker]

@Dimaba: Now why would I have a thought on someone to lynch when the day has just barely started? I'm not going to even think about putting anyone on the chopping block just yet. So why do you want a lynch opinion? Thinking of steering a quicklynch, scumboy?

@Frost: I'm amazed at how you seem to think me saying I would lynch a lurker if it came down to it is me trying to steer a mislynch.

[The Tracker]

I've been responding in defense of myself. I saw no need to post opinions at that point in time.

Anyway, if we had to lynch someone right at this moment and I had to hammer, I would go with you, Dimaba. You hopped on the thread then voted me without any ideas other than Ray's. I'm going to be found suspicious in some games I play, yes, but for you to just hop on Day 1 without ever having posted and just saying "I agree with Ray, vote Tracker," appears a bit like scum trying to steer a mislynch.

[The Tracker]

@dimaba: Or I could just be trying to fish a reaction out of you the same you did with your vote for me. I was attacking you for a reaction, good sir.

[The Tracker]

@Tracker
How is dimaba coming in, posting, and putting the

second

vote on you scummy? As I recall, he did give reasons for his vote.

He appeared out of the blue and used 90% of RayFrost's argument against me. It could be an attempt at bandwagoning a mislynch, and obviously doing that is scummy. Even if he believes in the cockles of his little heart I am scum and he is truly Town, at the very least starting to turn a vote into a wagon is suspicous.

[The Tracker]

Be as suspicious as you want. I'm simply defending myself but it seems your mind is made up.

[The Tracker]

Indeed, that could very well be. Which is part of why I'm not convinced enough to want you to be lynched. But I do believe fishing for a reaction as a response to an accusation, and thereby shifting focus away from yourself, is not the same as fishing for a reaction while on the offensive.

Indeed, it is not. However, I prefer to defend while attacking, if that makes any sense. Covering myself while directing my own questions to my attacker could very well give me some useful information for a read later on.

[The Tracker]

Okay, I see what you were saying. Sorry I wasn't answering your questions as fully as I should have.

@Chronos: Let's see if I can try to explain this better: if a bandwagon is started and the person being wagon'd turns out to be Town, then everyone that contributed to the bandwagon would be suspect. Also, bandwagons can snowball rather easily, so 2 votes can turn into 3, then 3 into 4...see where I'm going with this? Bandwagons aren't inherently wrong, but it can be rather easy to get them to snowball out of control. That's why I'm especially wary of possible wagons starting on the first or second page.

[The Tracker]

...My point was it was still early on in the game day. I just remembered it was recent, not the page number it was on.

[The Tracker]

If it appears that way, then sorry. But everything I said so far is true. I support LaL policy, but I won't do it unless I absolutely have to.

Anyway, I'm not finding cdub (I think that's his name) too Town right now. He's done nothing but lurk then made a vote then excused his lurking. If he explained his vote, that's one thing, but he didn't so I'm starting to find him rather suspicious.

[The Tracker]

Also the tracker I feel was hoping to use my absence as a route for a quick vote. Tracker was less tactful and has been drawing fire which has also caused plenty of switching stances.

*Raises an eyebrow* If I was using your absence for a quick vote, don't you think I would have said more than I wasn't liking how you were lurking? I never switched stances, but I had to give massive explanation for my points since apparantly saying you would support lynching lurkers means you're scum.

[The Tracker]

*raises eyebrow even further* I did not push for a lynch. Did I say,"we should lynch so-and-so now?" No. I said getting rid of lurkers is beneficial.

Anti-town=/=scummy. Just because someone appears anti-town does not mean they're scum.

Once again, you are saying I'm advocating a quicklynch. Show me my post where I advocated such a policy.

Yes, I accused dimaba. It's called a counter strike. He attacked me, so I responded in kind.

Summation:cdubs looks like he's trying to put words in my mouth. He's doing what everyone else is: saying a certain belief is a scum belief. Then of course he votes me. So dubbyman, I have a question for you: do you think dredging up old, rehashed arguments that have already been gone over as much as possible is beneficial? It seems to me the one quicklynching is you, considering I'm at three votes. Guess it's officially a wagon, now.

[The Tracker]

I want to know how being in support of LaL is scummy. In my opinion it's a damn null tell and shouldn't even figure in to whether you think someone's scum or not. I mean, yeah in Newbie games Town Newbies tend to lurk as well, but it's still more likely scum are the lurkers trying to stay off the radar.

[The Tracker]

Hey, dimaba, doesn't lynching somebody because they vote without reason sound rather familiar?
Too familiar.[/color]

Certainly does. Didn't help us much at the time, but they certainly did deserve it.

@Jackabomb: do you feel cdubs' presented reasons are strong enough to make the initial reasonless vote irrelevant?

@Doctor: what scumtells have you noticed about my play other than the would-be bandwagon? I'm not saying there aren't any, I just don't see them.

I am also going to

unvote

. I have said earlier that the original scumtells on Tracker (LaL-policy and non-participation) have become less valid and in my last post I also mentioned that my later reason for suspicion (agressive response without answering question) has also become less valid. Tracker is at L-2 I think it's better if I withdraw my vote for now.

I didnt write that quote you're quoting, that was Tracker

'Twas Jackabomb, my friend. I never played with Dimaba before.

[The Tracker]

I'm not Jackabomb, but I also have a vote on cdubs. Personally, I was not particularly convinced by his excuses. His accusations of Yosarian, and Tracker trying to lynch him on a policy lynch of lurkers are simply untrue. This means either he hasn't actually read through the thread carefully, or he is intentionally skewing the matter to try to divert attention to himself, which I would find scummy. Also, I find his excuse of not realizing there was more than one page a little suspicious.

I'm willing to give him the BotD for now due to newness, but if his next explanation doesn't turn off the scum alarm going off in my head then I'm voting him for sure.

@Yos: I was grilled for a page and a half (estimate, of course) over that policy alone by Jack, and Ray, dimaba, and dubs all listed it as reasons to vote for me. Of course since dubs is starting to set off alarm bells in my head as of now, I'm taking his vote with a grain of salt.

[The Tracker]

if you attack someone because they're attacking you, that's scummy anyway.

Can you elaborate on this for me please? I use it as part of my playstyle to get a reaction and otherwise glean information for later. Reasoning is if it's scum attacking me, I can drop them in the hot seat and if it's Town then the argument will eventually blow itself out.

[The Tracker]

Ah, okay. So you're referring to OMGUS stuff, not scumhunting counterattacks. I got you. Thanks much, Yos.

[The Tracker]

Though it is true that tracker never specifically voted based on lurking, he did suggest voting against people who had not posted yet. I feel he was waiting to see how discussion of this went before he cast a bandwagon vote.

But no, there's no way in Hell it could be that I tend to withhold my vote until I'm sure about something. I don't vote a lot, and when I do I rarely change it more than once or twice. But this is all meta stuff you wouldn't know yet, so moving on...

Yes I understand getting rid of lurkers is necessary but to suggest doing so very early in the game does seem scummy. Then when pressured for it, tracker said he doesn't like policy lynching when he was previously endorsing. He said it should only be done when there are no better options, yet to suggest we get "rid of them" so early is by no means a situation where there are no better options. Forgive me if my harping on this point is obnoxious, but I feel as though people feel it has been resolved when I do not think it has.

You're generalizing what I'm saying. I said our best choice was to get rid of them, yes. HOWEVER, I was not trying to steer a vote by saying that. Your reasoning is flawed, good sir.

I think tracker is scum.

This is just wrong.

I repeat this is not an omgus vote. I truly feel he was hoping to allow conversation for a quick and easy vote that would allow him to vote guilt free, and since he got heat for that the things he's been saying seem very scummy.

First, it can't be an OMGUS vote because I never directly attacked you. And votes on D1 are never 'quick and easy.' I am looking for conversation so I know who to vote for, yes, but that's what everyone does. Saying me doing it as a scumtell is asinine.

Final verdict: sorry dubs, but you're putting words in my mouth an awful lot. Your conjectures are wrong, your reasoning is ridiculously flawed, and half the stuff you're shooting at me I have previously refuted. For that I will follow through with what I said.

vote: cdubs

[The Tracker]

I did not hammer, however. I merely put him at L-1, albeit mistakenly. If I had double checked like I should have, I probably wouldn't have voted.

As for Doctor, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. Yes, he hammered a Townie but he probably just didn't count. I have an eye on him, but that's about all at this point.

[The Tracker]

No one's popping out at me right now, personally. Mostly Ray, but he could just be an overzealous Townie and therefore I'm not particularly worried about him.

@Doctor: I promised I would vote for him if his response didn't satisfy me. His response didn't satisfy me, so I voted him knowing he was not being hammered. However, I did in fact think I was putting him at L-2, not L-1. I was mistaken. Is that satisfactory?

[The Tracker]

Yeah, probably. Not too worried, though. Doubt we'll have another quicklynch, and I'm sure we can hit scum.

[The Tracker]

I'm kind of worried about dimaba, but I'm going to wait and see what he says. I'm not a fan of his lurking and Yosarian hit my other suspicions on the head.

[The Tracker]

Dimaba, I'm curious as to why one of your reasons for voting easjo you yourself are guilty of. You say she drops in irregularly but then again, I've noticed your posting patterns are incredibly irregular as well. Care to explain?

[The Tracker]

Okay. Just wanted to see your reasons, dimaba.

I follow the points about easjo, so I'm going to keep an eye on her. If she doesn't step up and start participating more, my vote may land on her.

Dimaba's point is true: he does have pretty decent posts so I'm not too worried about him at the moment.

Doctor...well, that's an obvious stance I have.

Chronos looks like he's trying to hit easy targets a bit to me. He's mostly going after people who are already under suspicion. Definitely watching him as well.

Not worried about Yosarian at all. It's very unlikely he's scum. His participation is good and he's looking very pro-Town.

And The Tracker is an all around awesome guy. He's even more Town than Yosarian and if I could have a drink with him I would.

[The Tracker]

Good lord, Doctor, he's threatening to vote you in a game. He's not threatening to murder your family. Lighten up.

[The Tracker]

Tracker didn't say his read of me.

<--- left out

Sorry Ray. I knew I forgot someone. Anyway, my read of you is a zealous Town right now. Yeah, you attack but you always have a reason for it.

[The Tracker]

Well, dimaba didn't have a lot of original content Day 1. I mean, he posts a lot but he doesn't seem to just be following popular suspicions right now unless I'm missing something.

[The Tracker]

Doctor: Probably a genuine mistake. I'll keep an eye on him but not a vote ATM.

Yoarian: Looks pro-Town to me.

easjo: Few of her posts has low content, not hitting danger levels right now though.

Dimaba: Looking a little strange with his targeting of easjo with accusations of what he's also guilty of. Since he started the discussion, he's more suspect.

Ray: Looking like zealous Town. Genuinely looks like he's actively looking for bad guys.

Chronos: Many of his posts actually look like fillers to me. Doesn't seem to think on his own too much.

The Tracker: Obv Town. Need I say more? XD

[The Tracker]

Well, it looks to me in the case of Doctor he's not really putting words in people's mouths, he's mostly just interpreting (possibly incorrectly) what people are saying. There's nothing wrong with provoking reactions, doing just that is 90% of the game.

Chronos looks like he's tunneling a bit and I follow Doctor's point about him using the lynch as standing ground. It's a rather solid base, but it's also a very easy target. Is he scum trying to steer a lynch? Possibly, but I just have a feeling about Chronos and nothing concrete.

Between Doctor and dimaba I'm finding dimaba scummier. That hypocrisy is starting to flash little warning lights in my head.

[The Tracker]

Not a fan of no lynch unless it's absolutely necessary. Playing mafia means a Townie or two dies no matter what and if we hit a Townie on a lynch then we can look at who was going after that Townie and why. It's a tidy system.

I don't mind a Dimaba lynch, but let's look at his claim.

[The Tracker]

Dimaba claimed Town. Basically what that means to me is if he's telling the truth we're not lynching a PR. If he's lying scum, we're lynching lying scum. If he's a PR, then if we lynch him there's going to be a whole 'why didn't he say so' rigamarole.

Conclusion: I need a little more convincing to hammer him. I don't have a strong feeling about him right now, really.

[The Tracker]

Well, let's put it this way, Doctor, they're not bad assumptions at all. They're similar reasons for why chronos is on my scum list at all.

I'm still not entirely convinced on Dimaba's guilt. If the deadline gets much closer, I'll hammer, but I want to see what other people think of a dimaba lynch.

[The Tracker]

Well, since there's really no reason to keep posturing like this up to the deadline and I doubt any new evidence is going to come up, we might as well just end this day phase now.

vote: dimaba

Best choice for the lynch. Let's see where this leads.

[The Tracker]

Here's the thing, Yos started giving me a bad feeling later on in LyLo. Just too bad I had a bad case of dead that day...

[The Tracker]

Yeah, true. I read back after I made that easjo comment and then Yos didn't look so Town anymore. I don't know why I disregarded your lurking, Ray. Usually I try to make a case against that.