Newbie 893 - Newbieland! (GAME OVER)

[Honest Abel]

/confirm

What is the point of the roleblocker in this variation?
1 mafia goon + 1 mafia roleblocker vs. 7 vanilla townies

There are no townie roles to block.

Given the setup variations, if this one did not exist, then the Mafia would automatically know the town power roles. With this one as a possibility, nobody can really fully know the setup until at least one role flip.

- Mod

[Honest Abel]

kthanks, Mod.

[Honest Abel]

/confirmed

Hi all, I'm your friendly neighborhood SE, and I will do my best to explain relevant game theory and tactics when necessary. If you have any questions, then feel free to ask me!

Also,

@Reckoner: You should include "X, anonymous park goer, murdered N0" or something like that.

Oh hey RayFrost, I didn't notice you at first, but I was just reading Newbie 884 (I read almost the whole thing because I'm anxious for this to start) where you claimed to have made ~5 newbs leave the game/site. Let's see if we can break that record!

[Honest Abel]

I'm supposed to act like they don't exist until they're over? I only mentioned a meta aspect of the game.

[Honest Abel]

Gotcha. What's next on your list?

[Honest Abel]

Well, I'll just get this out of the way right off the bat: I'm pro-town.

I'm going to

Vote: Pomegranate

to start off with, since, as she's the IC, I'll be able to glean what an appropriate response to being random-voted is.

[Honest Abel]

Vote: Honest Abel

Avatar (mafia goon type) and username (honest person) don't match, so he's obv not honest, and scum are dishonest, making him scum.

Yeah, but if you look closely, it's Captain Kirk, who is obviously a defender of justice.

Riza, bandwagon much?

[Honest Abel]

I don't know why the distinction between second and third vote should be so clear; Riza simply voted for me even though I had already been voted which makes me wonder the angle he/she was playing. He/she says it was a random vote but it struck me as the first attempt from an anxious newbie scum to start a bandwagon.

I feel as though pushing this topic will just result in a "Relax, it was just a random vote, like Riza said" but I suppose questioning it wouldn't hurt since it's the only noteworthy thing to come of the random voting so far.

So, Riza, why would you vote on someone who had already been voted for? I would think voting for someone who had yet gone unnoticed would help bring everyone into the discussion. Why did you choose to pool me and the other already-been-voteds into your random choice?

[Honest Abel]

Well, if you want an explanation of the avatar and my username, it's just that I am a very sarcastic/ironic person. I had screencap'd a bunch of funny images from Star Trek as I watched it recently and found it as I was trying to think of what avatar to use, and I used it simply because it was relevant. It was either that or Spock as a mafia goon holding a tommy gun.

The username is something I've used for years (and was also the name I used for my music recording project for a while) and stems from several things: Abel as a character from Xenogears, Abel the biblical character (a character demanding sympathy), and Abraham Lincoln (read: Abe. L.) who is just a coolguy. The "honest" part comes from several things as well: one is a reference to the fact that I always keep promises; another is a reference to the fact that I am usually brutally honest; finally is a reference from

Othellol

, as Iago is referred to often as "Honest Iago," which is a very powerfully ironic label. I've often been described as having a silver tongue, so I figured comparing myself to one of the trickiest characters in Shakespeare would be fitting. On the other hand, it makes me look suspicious in a game of mafia, but I hope my (too?) detailed explanation will help you get past any suspicion based simply on my username/avatar.

[Honest Abel]

Hah, "Othellol," read: OH-THELL-OH-EL.

[Honest Abel]

I already thought about the fact that your avatar/username would probably have really nothing to do with whether you're scum or not, so I wasn't really expecting such a long explanation. But your quick defense in being voted for twice is a bit suspicious. It almost seems like you're pretty desperate.

I think you (and maybe others) misinterpreted my openness and willingness to chat as a defensive action. I'll probably try to explain less in the future, not because I'm trying to make you happy and buddy up, but because focusing on me just means we'll have a harder time tracking scum. In fact, the big posts all about me and my username were kind of crappy and I apologize for my narcissism.

What is the reasoning behind the tactic of triple-voting Hetemens (even though the votes have been undone now)? Did he do something particularly scummy, or was RayFrost simply trying to prove his point about bandwagoning?

[Honest Abel]

Also, I'm trying to figure out whether Pomegranate's misinterpretation of RayFrost's post was truly accidental or secretly purposeful. I thought it was very clear that RayFrost was talking about me being sensitive to a second post; he didn't seem to say bandwagoning was scummy, just that being defensive from a second vote was scummy.

[Honest Abel]

Sorry I've been missing the last couple pages of discussion, I've had a lot of work.

Reading what has transpired:

RayFrost became aggressive (even though he said he was typing in caps to calm himself down, his accusations and reasoning were pretty accusatory). Still he's criticizing a lot of people's actions in a condescending manner. I'm not sure if he's doing this to prove that he's town (because scum wouldn't be such cocks to other people) or if he's scum trying to make us think he's not afraid to offend us. Another thing worth mention about RayFrost is that he's been going after several people in a very short timeframe. I'm not sure if it's because he sees something in the victim's post that tips him off very early that they're pro-town, or if it's because he's trying to draw a lot of reactions out of various people to increase the chances of an innocent reacting in a way that makes us think he/she is scum.

ThetaSigma, to me, is hard to read because he's been putting his objective reasoning skills and knowledge of probability, etc., to the forefront, shielding him from an emotional read. I find this difficult to interpret because it could either be that he's genuinely interested in helping the town using his deductive talents, or he's purposefully using his references to hide his emotions and to talk without saying anything too assumptive that might give away his scumminess. I'm leaning toward the former, but hopefully that's not just because so many other people are hard to read right now.

Pomegranate has been cautious, yes, or attempting to appear cautious. At the moment I can't tell which it is.

I also noticed Pomegranate and RayFrost have been posting a lot about scumtells and what the general rules are to finding scum. Some earlier things that RayFrost posted about "scum do this, not this" seem like they might not be universally true, which kind of makes me doubt the way he's "training" us newbs. It'd be very easy for a more experienced player to mislead us like that. Both he and Pomegranate are in a good position to cover up their scumminess because A) Explaining rules to newbs is a very easy way to buddy up, B) They know the scumtells so well that they likely wouldn't commit them and might be actively trying to do the opposite, C) The sheer act of posting common scumtells and explaining the game gives them an easy source of material to post and "spam" the thread with, making them seem active and helpful even though they are just quoting other sources, which is very simple to do.

I'm sorry that I'm so uncertain of everything I just posted, but I'm still trying to get a grasp on how to properly distinguish scum behavior from town behavior. My hope, though, is that something I've said will turn on a light above another townie's head.

[Honest Abel]

Of course I'm not saying Ray and Pom are posting helpful stuff because they are scum, but I'm pointing out the possibility and urging newbs not to forget that they could be trying to murder us while helping us learn.

[Honest Abel]

In the end, the chances of any of us being scum are the same. Hence, you need to learn to distinguish from actual game play and game mechanics.

So you're saying the difference between newbs and experienced players is totally negligible in a game where one of the only certainties is that there are newbs and experienced players? I definitely disagree. Unless there is some kind of rule that forbids SEs and ICs from using our inexperience to their advantage, we should definitely consider how an experienced player will act differently in a game with 2/3 newbs compared to a game with no newbs. SE and IC are indeed roles, though not in the same sense as mafia and townie, that are included in this F11 setup with a specific aim of getting the games on-track and being able to answer questions and lead by example. Being a newb, I'm not burdened by any of that. In the end, I don't know what the distinction means or if it guarantees any specific ways the players will act in response to the disparity in experience, but it's something to consider when you weigh the options concerning WIFOM or anything else.

Honest Abel - Does aggression necessarily imply scummy?

No, and I didn't say it did. In fact, I already weighed both possibilities concerning an aggressive player and nobody has had a chance to reply to my pondering. So I will turn the question around to you: Does aggression necessarily imply scummy?

[Honest Abel]

I never claimed that you said it. I was merely asking a question. Why so defensive?

Um, because my previous post already gave my complete thoughts on the question. I'm not sure why you'd ask that if you had read my post. Thanks for your thoughts on it, though.

As for the part about you warning about SE/ICs, yeah, I don't really know how I missed the second half of your paragraph. I guess the first half ticked me off somehow. I know the odds are the same, kthanks.

[Honest Abel]

Things surely are getting a little muddled now, as Pomegranate points out. It is also in the interest of scum to muddle things up since, as was said, it causes the scummy behavior to get lost in the discussion, causes a loss of interest in the game, which is generally a worse situation for town. I don't feel like a newb could have orchestrated that so soon.

Pomegranate has been trying to pacify things without really taking issue with anyone in particular (no scumhunting, as chauchau was keen to point out). She tells me I'm right that while SE/ICs are here to help, they are playing to their win condition. She also seems to be pacifying RayFrost by telling us, in an almost apologetic tone, that his aggression is probably simply the result of his personality. Pomegranate, you've just been too nice and it's clear you're doing your best to placate others while using simply my observation that TS has a brain as a reason behind your vote. I don't dig it.

For emphasis:

Unvote

;

Vote Pomegranate

[Honest Abel]

Just pointing out I also took issue with chau and directed a question at her (albeit the same question she asked me). Not sure if ThetaSigma just missed all that or is scum trying to label himself as a lead investigator by neglecting previous events.

[Honest Abel]

I've been somewhat in the loop and feel like I revalidated my stance on my vote for Pom. But just because it happened a while ago doesn't mean it's not as good evidence as something that happened more recently or invalid because Pom changed her behavior since we pointed it out. Whoever was mafia on Page 3 is still going to be mafia now.

[Honest Abel]

Also, can someone please explain to me the purpose of "claiming"? Chau said it would be an appropriate time for Pom to claim, as if saying "wait guys, I'm town" is really going to make a difference. What dynamics am I missing here?

[Honest Abel]

Ah, brilliant, thanks. That's one of the things I couldn't really get a grasp on reading previous games. So as vanilla townie, we should be thinking "This is a risk we can be somewhat comfortable taking"? Also, what if the person is a doctor? Would they honestly claim that, or would they say they are a townie just to avoid being made a mafia target?

Another thing, claiming vanilla townie could be a safety move because we know there will be no counter-claims, right?

[Honest Abel]

Chau, maybe if my only point was that she wasn't scumhunting, but I also pointed out that she was clearly trying to placate everyone which is what really set it off for me. Of course, saying "Scumhunt away!" or whatever she said was an obnoxiously anti-town sentiment, as well (too obnoxious for a mafia to say it? I'm not convinced yet). Regardless, I still currently feel like my vote was in the right place and it comforts me a little to know that someone agrees with me still despite others unvoting.

[Honest Abel]

Reading her posts again, this seemed mighty suspicious sounding:

So

we, the town

, look for signs of it- the scummy behavior.

Why do you have to flavor your explanations, which should be unbiased, with buddying? You also refer to the mafia in the second-person throughout the whole post: a distancing tactic. In my opinion, it seems like you're trying a bit too hard with your presentation. You also posted a list of scumtells with sarcastic explanations, which helps us none. I think RayFrost was the victim of massive doses of unnoticed sarcasm in that thread, which could explain why he somewhat agreed with it being posted here, haha.

Anyway, just some more observation of Pom for others to consider. I'll try to look at others' posts and see what I can pick out, but I'm certainly leaving my vote on Pom.

By the way, please link me to the location where it says SEs and ICs are

forbidden

from spreading misinformation about the game in newbie games. We shouldn't just trust you on things like that, especially since there's a possibility that the mafia consists of two experienced players.

[Honest Abel]

Not sure why you directed this at me.

Um, because I was replying to your post? You implied to Riza that his only reason for clearing me was because I said Pom wasn't scumhunting, so I needed to point out that that wasn't my main motivation. It's nothing to get defensive over, I was just noting that we had different motivations and that I wasn't just stealing yours, as you attempted to claim.

Also, your point about Pom using "we, the town" and referring to mafia as third person is reaching a bit. Both townies and scum do this. It's a null tell.

Maybe your experience suggests this is a null tell, but I don't believe it is and I'm not going to forget about it just because you told me to. I know people put a lot of thought into exactly how they word their posts, so doing something like this seemed kind of suspicious in a game where posters know their exact connotation will be scrutinized.

Also, I don't get why people are calling me "Honest." Honest is an adjective, Abel is a name. As is with most epithets.

[Honest Abel]

I've seen this argument many times, and it is worthless. I'm sure that had I just written "we" I would have been accused of the same thing, while if I had used the term "the town", I would have been accused of making a Freudian slip by referring to the town as a group separate from my own (by seemingly not including myself in the town).

If you had said "we," I would have thought the same thing to a lesser degree, yes. If you had said "the town," I would have thought your explanation was unbiased. Referring to things in the third person all around is the only way to appear unbiased. First person shows alignment, second person shows distancing. Third person is objective. Saying "we, the town" strikes me as attempting to be objective

while

attempting to align yourself with the town, which is what struck me as fishy. Perhaps I'm being too ardent about this, but seeing as your past behavior still leaves you as my first suspect, I figured I have a little room to explore in which direction to take my analyses.

[Honest Abel]

Something tells me that RayFrost isn't scum but it just a narcissistic, loves hearing himself talk, plays lots of games because he likes feeling a part of things kind of guy. I know a lot of his posts haven't been very helpful to the town, and he switches his votes a lot without really explaining his case (Riza's recent posts have been agreeing with others, Riza's older posts backtrack? Show us some evidence, show us from where and why you are making these conclusions). He's attracted more attention to himself than anyone else in this game, which I believe someone pointed out is typical behavior for him. It really doesn't seem helpful to the town, whether he's scum or not. Some people seem to play these games with other motivations other than to simply win (just like how a lot of people post on any forum for reasons other than to simple discuss things), e.g. it gives them an opportunity to be showy and obnoxious.

Sorry if I've hurt your feeling RayFrost, but these are the reasons I believe you are town.

[Honest Abel]

If you voted for Vaporeonage, can you give me a

concise

explanation of your vote?

Anyone who didn't vote for him, can you give me your concise view on why others have voted for him and why you think they are wrong?

I know I could go back and read, but I often feel like my interpretations get muddled by the distance between posts and all the reasoning that goes on between them, and I hope this can generate some discussion about our L-2, here.

[Honest Abel]

Why don't you answer your own question?

Most of Vaporeon's posts slipped under my nose because of how short they were, so I never really paid much attention to them. Then I noticed he/she was L-2, so my first response was to ask everyone "Why?" because it was quicker than re-reading the whole day in light of Vaporeon's contributions. Then I went to NYC for a couple days, which I probably should have mentioned beforehand. I found some of the responses quite helpful (obviously not yours, since you completely avoided the question) and found some faults with others (sorry, Pom, I think I disagree on some of your points) and I will explain my thoughts on Vaporeon and the responses I got as soon as I go over his/her posts myself, which should happen before the end of the night.

[Honest Abel]

All right, looking at Vaporeon's posts, I can see why some people have chosen to vote for him/her. I, however, do not find his posts representative of scummy behavior; unhelpful, sure, but his confusion seldom struck me as scummy. I think there is much more sinister behavior afoot and focusing on an inexperienced player's tribulations as if they were scummy seems plenty sinister to me.

Pom, I don't believe his/her vote on RayFrost was confusing at all; he mentioned that RayFrost attacks anyone who suspects him. I can't personally agree with this since I don't think RayFrost has done this in every case and because he's certainly attacked more people than have suspected him. However, I think Vaporeon picked up on RayFrost's unconcentrated attacks and a bit of defensiveness and decided to cast a vote his way. I don't think that's scummy.

I also think, Pom, that you and others may be reading a little too much into Vaporeon's L-1 vote. I hadn't been keeping track of the votes up to that point and I wouldn't have realized you were at L-1 if not for chau's following post and the fuss that ensued. My guess is that Vaporeon didn't realize he/she would be placing you a vote away from lynch or that doing so would cause such a ruckus.

I did notice, though, how quick you were to OMGUS-vote Vaporeon back. Covered by a seemingly good amount of reason, sure, but please don't try to tell us that you would have voted for Vaporeon at that point anyway if he/she hadn't voted for you.

I also find your lengthy and detailed (and colored?) summary of your target's posts at my humble request another link in your suspicious chain of actions. Too often I find you trying to placate others as you have attempted to placate me here so completely: I asked for a concise statement of your personal feelings, and you gave me a comprehensive list of Vapor's posts. I just don't find the arguments founded enough to consider it an attempt to help the town; it seems you are merely trying to help me as you have tried to help so many others without hunting or saying too much to offend anyone who could possibly defend his or her actions.

Again, I leave my vote on you, Pom.

[Honest Abel]

I was going to ask you about your personal definition of VI, so I'm glad to hear you are thinking of saying something about that. I'd just like to know what makes you distinguish between Vapor and VI.

[Honest Abel]

Not that this tangent has anything to do with the game, but I don't see anything wrong or contradictory about Riza's defense of her emoticon use. She intended to restrain her use, and has since used too many for her liking.

[Honest Abel]

By the way, Riza, no, Village Idiot is not a given role. It's just a term used for a vanilla townie who has no or little idea of how to actually play the game. From my understanding, they are generally useless and can be detrimental to the town's chances because they might do things like vote for someone at L-1 without really realizing the consequences, or switching their votes frequently to agree with whatever good point was made last, or other things Vaporeonage has done. This is why I think Vapor is village idiot and not scum. I can't say I would be heartbroken if we lynched Vapor and he/she turned out to be town, because so far he/she really hasn't been any help anyway. BUT we have bigger fish to fry.

So, Riza, what do you think about Vapor as a village idiot? Do you disagree? What exactly makes you feel like Vapor's actions are scummy and not just confused? I'd also like to hear JarcLovesCinn's thoughts on the same thing, and, of course, Pom's highly anticipated explanation.

We are at a point where the votes are pretty evenly dispersed among three to four targets, which means for any lynching to happen, people are going to need to be persuaded from their current targets to agree with others. I've been asking to be persuaded to target Vaporeonage, but I'm having a tough time with it so far and I currently doubt I will be swayed to vote for him/her.

[Honest Abel]

I'm leaning more toward the fact that Vapor is more like the clueless newbie scum, rather than the village idiot. I think he's trying to get us to think he's village idiot, rather than newbie scum, but he is in fact, scum.

What would make you jump to this conclusion? I can understand how a player who acts strange can be village idiot. The connection there is obvious. But what about Vapor's behavior makes you think he's scum pretending to be village idiot? What is the distinction you are making? I don't see it. It just seems like an assumption without any real evidence, which makes me question why you are so resolute with your vote.

[Honest Abel]

Right, I've been the one constantly finding faults with Pomegranate's behavior, remember me?

I can't say I have a good grasp on anyone else besides Pom right now. I explained some of my uncertainties earlier (Theta's logical behavior being hard to read, RayFrost's aggressive behavior being hard to interpret). JarcLovesCinn, I haven't really gotten a grasp on his/her behavior because of the lack of activity, which was the same for Vaporeon before the instant bandwagon (but I have decided to consider him/her VI for now). I can put Nikanor in this same inactive category, but I'm not sure if that's because he/she just joined. It could be interesting interpreting how two different people have been playing the role, whatever it is.

I am slightly suspicious of Riza just because he/she seems to be having a hard time justifying his/her vote. I don't know why someone would cast a vote without having proven it to the self enough to be able to justify it with evidence. I have a bad feeling that Riza voted for Vapor just because Pom did.

And you, chau, I have to say you are being quite helpful to town by promoting discussion and asking questions all the time, so you are currently not on my suspicion radar. I will have to review your posts and behavior at some point, though.

Also, I noticed you had to specify that you wanted conclusions drawn from my own accord and not based on others' arguments. Do you feel like I am stealing anyone's arguments or that I've reached no conclusions? More importantly, do you think it's a good strategy to analyse/criticize others' suspicions/votes/apparent-scumhunting, or should I just stick to, um, whatever else people are doing in the thread? In typing that last sentence I realized there's not really much else to do besides question others' arguments, is there? So I'm not sure why you had to make that distinction. Again, maybe I'm misinterpreting you like I did earlier when you said Riza cleared me of suspicion based on an argument I made that I apparently stole from you, but it seems like there's an accusatory tone to your posts that I can't put my finger on. Let me know if you find faults with my gameplay or if you have better ideas of how I can think about scumhunting. I'm trying pretty hard to help town, and I'd expect advice from a townie instead of accusation that I'm not trying to help.

[Honest Abel]

I didn't mean so much that I

want

to be persuaded so much as I want people to try to persuade me. I won't put it past them to persuade me, but nobody's really stepping forward to support their case. I put up a bunch of stuff on Pom that nobody's really responding to that much aside from saying "this doesn't work here," but there are other points that have gone ignored and I'm wondering if it's because everyone truly thinks Pom is town and I'm missing it.

[Honest Abel]

If you were scum, why would you scumhunt more than you had to?

To mislead people by thinking you are helping town; to cast suspicion onto Townies. If I were scum, I'm pretty sure I'd scumhunt just like I am now since it seems like you can almost always make a case that anyone is scum based on anything they say. Or maybe it just seems that way in this game because we don't really have a clear scum candidate and our vote is currently divided between four players. This is something that more experience will help me to determine, but for now I'm just going to assume that scum are indeed scummy and will go to lengths to appear helpful, and won't just outright show us that they are scum.

Often I'm wagonned D1

And you think it's generally because you're a big help to the town and the scum want to kill you, or are you always this placid and refuse to scumhunt? Saying "this guy who might be VI might also be scum, so LYNCH" isn't really scumhunting. You haven't really provoked any information from Vaporeon, you just noticed a little trend (a realization that was provoked by a vote against you) and voted back against him, which is how I see it and why I used the

sacred

term OMGUS.

But even according to what you said yourself, in the bolded (though I do not think that the wording you used was good,) I used reasoning. I didn't vote Vapor because he voted

me

, but because he placed the L-1 vote so quickly.

I thought your reasoning

appeared

sufficient, but most of it can be explained by Vapor being VI instead of how you painted it: as Vapor definitely being scummy.

So by answering your question (albeit in a somewhat lengthy way), I'm suspicious. So the fact that I answered you, as opposed to say, JLC, makes me scummier than him?

No, it makes you more active than JLC. It's really the way that you went to such lengths to answer a question that wasn't primarily directed at you, which seemed to be just because I had my vote on you at the time and you were trying to placate me.

I don't see why stating that you find someone scummy is offensive

Simply because it's the opposite of defensive.

But why can't a VI be scum? (I've seen a lynch put off because 'he's not scum, just a VI'.) I don't see why that have to be mutually exclusive.

They don't, but I generally get a feeling that people are considered innocent until proven otherwise. That's the whole point of scumhunting. You don't just assume they are scum because they could be. You're still not saying

why

you think his behavior was scummy and not just VI, you're just saying that you think there's an equal chance and decided to land on the scummy side.

I don't find Riza scummy for the whole emoticon thing, but slightly scummy for other reasons.

Right, I don't think the emoticons really have anything to do with it either.

[Honest Abel]

Well, here's the thing.

Would you rather lynch active-scum or a guy you aren't even sure is scum?

Would you rather lynch him when you have no better alternatives or take a wild stab at one of those that may actually be useful to the town?

Would you rather lynch a guy that's served no real value to the town but no real value to the scum now or the day everybody but him seems town?

Currently, if you have other scum reads, I think it'd be better spent pursuing those.

This is how I feel and why I think Vaporeon is a waste of time right now, especially since we have a wealth of other information to work off of.

[Honest Abel]

I don't find Riza scummy for the whole emoticon thing, but slightly scummy for other reasons.

P.S. What are your other reasons?

[Honest Abel]

Going back and quickly reading Riza's posts with a more cynical eye, I'm starting to suspect her. I will attempt to give a more detailed analysis on her tomorrow when I'm not so tired.

I want to ask anyone: have I been trying too hard with Pom? Are my suspicions too unfounded? I felt resolute about sticking with my vote for Pom but now I'm not really sure if my targeting has really proven anything. Can anyone (preferably an experienced player) look over any arguments I have made against Pom and explain to me whether or not they are any good?

I'm questioning my tactics because I can't help but feel like an asshole constantly picking things out that bug me about Pom's behavior, especially to her face. And I certainly haven't gotten anyone to agree with me about her, so some feedback would be nice.

[Honest Abel]

It's not that I think I'm actually being rude or anything, but what makes me feel like an asshole is being on Pom's case to the point where it seems to have gotten tiresome for the both of us. Would you consider it tunnelvision? At least now I'm starting to consider others (Vapor, Riza).

Can we get a current vote-count? I can't be bothered to go count myself if there's a chance that someone else might just know off the top of his/her head. Again, very tired.