Newbie 893 - Newbieland! (GAME OVER)

[ThetaSigma]

/confirm :O

[ThetaSigma]

This is quite a pickle, isn't it? Take a random stab and possibly (likely) kill the wrong person.... how delightful.

I believe I'll randomly stab

Vote: JarcLovesCinn

Because that username is completely tasteless.

[ThetaSigma]

*plays with a yo-yo*

[ThetaSigma]

I find RayFrost's attitude most disagreeable.

*Still playing with Yoyo*

[ThetaSigma]

Unvote, Vote: RayFrost

[ThetaSigma]

I don't believe there is enough evidence on the table to build a case against -anyone-. However, it seems as though you -are- attempting to vilify Pom. That is, however, what I meant by your attitude being disagreeable -- I would have amended my vote onto that post, as I'd forgotten to put it in, but couldn't find a way to edit. So I assumed that people would make the connection.

I'll be more careful next time.

As far as contributing "Valuable Content And Aid In Scumhunting" goes, I frankly do not wish to contribute to the lynching of an innocent and am thus hesitant to draw judgement without further assessing the situation.

[ThetaSigma]

I did not admit to wanting to avoid attention or not aid in hunting. If I wished to avoid attention, I would lurk as much as possible. Try to make you all forget I'm even in the room. And I sure wouldn't cast a vote for someone who has been quite nastily vocal for the past page and a half.

Frankly, as a well-trained student of mathematics, I've had ground into my brain for many a year to never make an assumption. Only that which has been stated is a viable item for use in deducing anything. I am notoriously poor at formulating opinion in this sort of situation.

On that note, I invoke the burden of proof on your circumstantial ad hominem.

[ThetaSigma]

do tell how it was misused.

[ThetaSigma]

Note the circumstantial ad hominem. It is different from ad hominem.

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to claim X.
Therefore claim X is false.

Theta makes claim RayFrost is scum.
Rayfrost asserts that Theta make claim Rayfrost is scum because it's in Theta's interest to claim so. (ie because Theta is scum)
Therefore, Rayfrost is not scum.


Fantastic.

[ThetaSigma]

Excellent, you have some intelligence in there, somewhere.

I don't. and I definitely don't have opinions.

But I can admit when I am indeed incorrect.

Now I must derive formulae for stereoscopic projective geometries from circles/spheres to the real numbers/complex number plane. So I shall admit defeat, THIS TIME.

[ThetaSigma]

PS, are you sure this doesn't/cannot be construed as such?

"Scum wish to get mislynches while not actually being a direct part of it so as to avoid blame"

I wouldn't call a first/second vote an immediate or particularly suspicious part of a mislynch on the first day, with little to no data to go off.

[ThetaSigma]

I just kid, really. I'm a nice ThetaSigma, once you get to know me.

[ThetaSigma]

rho is a lot of fun to write, but I think my favorite to write is gamma. however, all them Greek letters are trumped by the curly-d, ∂. For sure. Best symbol ever.

[ThetaSigma]

My top suspect is me.

Well, no, my top suspect is really everyone else. Right now it seems like a personality war is going down. And a lot of flinging of the term 'scummy'. Thing is, this is my first time playing and I'm rather unsure of myself and how I should go about evaluating people. I find a lot of people suspicious, but as it stands, I don't really know how people behave when they're hiding their scumminess, so I'm taking a bit of 'they seem somewhat suspicious' with 'evaluating others' arguments' and 'stand back and watch'.

BTW, the 2/9 probability of scumminess for any individual is an incorrect statistic. The proper ratio is 17/72. Since the first choice of 1/9 is, well, one out of nine players can be the first scum. The second choice cannot be the first, so one out of the remaining eight can be the second scum. Thus, 1/9+1/8=17/72. This is a slightly higher ratio than 2/9 (0.236 versus 0.222). It doesn't change the fact that everyone is equally likely to be scum, but this is a very common error in calculating probability in discrete (countable) situations.

[ThetaSigma]

ThetaSigma, to me, is hard to read because he's been putting his objective reasoning skills and knowledge of probability, etc., to the forefront, shielding him from an emotional read. I find this difficult to interpret because it could either be that he's genuinely interested in helping the town using his deductive talents, or he's purposefully using his references to hide his emotions and to talk without saying anything too assumptive that might give away his scumminess. I'm leaning toward the former, but hopefully that's not just because so many other people are hard to read right now.

If you want an emotional read, you already hit the nail on the head -- I hide behind my brain to protect myself. Doesn't matter if it's this game or another or (especially) in person, that's my defense re: social anxiety (it doesn't help that this term is full of very heavy classes). If you feel this is indicative of scum, not much I can do about that. I'd hate to be lynched, no matter who I'm playing.

*the more you know music plays*

RayFrost became aggressive (even though he said he was typing in caps to calm himself down, his accusations and reasoning were pretty accusatory). Still he's criticizing a lot of people's actions in a condescending manner.
(snip)
I also noticed Pomegranate and RayFrost have been posting a lot about scumtells and what the general rules are to finding scum. Some earlier things that RayFrost posted about "scum do this, not this" seem like they might not be universally true, which kind of makes me doubt the way he's "training" us newbs.

I think these two observations regarding RayFrost are quite linked -- he's been accusatory, condescending, aggressive... And speaks of scumtells and who is and is not scum as though he is the foremost authority. Personally, I honestly find this suspicious. It really is a combination of I'm-right-you're-wrong, I'm-experienced-you're-not, and This-person-said-one-thing-they-are-totally-scum.

...On the other hand, he could just be a dick. Who knows.

On a side note, I do have a query for you more experienced players. How oft does scum target scum? As in, a particular behind the scenes deal wherein scum agree to sacrifice one of their own in order to appear truly pro-town?

[ThetaSigma]

ThetaSigma, to me, is hard to read because he's been putting his objective reasoning skills and knowledge of probability, etc., to the forefront, shielding him from an emotional read. I find this difficult to interpret because it could either be that he's genuinely interested in helping the town using his deductive talents, or he's purposefully using his references to hide his emotions and to talk without saying anything too assumptive that might give away his scumminess. I'm leaning toward the former, but hopefully that's not just because so many other people are hard to read right now.

If you want an emotional read, you already hit the nail on the head -- I hide behind my brain to protect myself. Doesn't matter if it's this game or another or (especially) in person, that's my defense re: social anxiety (it doesn't help that this term is full of very heavy classes). If you feel this is indicative of scum, not much I can do about that. I'd hate to be lynched, no matter who I'm playing.

*the more you know music plays*

RayFrost became aggressive (even though he said he was typing in caps to calm himself down, his accusations and reasoning were pretty accusatory). Still he's criticizing a lot of people's actions in a condescending manner.
(snip)
I also noticed Pomegranate and RayFrost have been posting a lot about scumtells and what the general rules are to finding scum. Some earlier things that RayFrost posted about "scum do this, not this" seem like they might not be universally true, which kind of makes me doubt the way he's "training" us newbs.

I think these two observations regarding RayFrost are quite linked -- he's been accusatory, condescending, aggressive... And speaks of scumtells and who is and is not scum as though he is the foremost authority. Personally, I honestly find this suspicious. It really is a combination of I'm-right-you're-wrong, I'm-experienced-you're-not, and This-person-said-one-thing-they-are-totally-scum.

...On the other hand, he could just be a dick. Who knows.

On a side note, I do have a query for you more experienced players. How oft does scum target scum? As in, a particular behind the scenes deal wherein scum agree to sacrifice one of their own in order to appear truly pro-town?

[ThetaSigma]

oops. pardon my double post. Time for me to look sheepish.
(execute sheepish look)

[ThetaSigma]

Theta - What is your definition of scum hunting theta? And like I asked Abel, do you find aggressive play scummy?

I am currently working on formulating a definition of scumhunting as application versus theory. How it actually functions in-game as opposed to a list of tells and common practices. So far it seems to consist of delicate and not-so-delicate prodding of various players to try and get them to slip up. however, the application of "slip up" is again going to be quite different from a list of theoretical tells. Aggressive play being scummy? I believe that depends on the manner of aggression. if someone is, say, aggressively scumhunting, as in working everyone in the forum over on a constant basis with probing questions and comments, no, not scummy. If someone is being aggressive in their wording and actions, could go either way, since I agree with Ray's analysis, quoted and analyzed slightly below.

As far as Pom versus Ray, I'm afraid it may be largely a personality thing. As I said, I don't know if it's just his personality or not. But I can actually sum it up with Ray's own words --

By Being Extremely Aggressive And Domineering, It Is Very Easy To Cause People (Particularly Newbies) To Back Down From An Argument.

In Addition, It Can Be Relatively Simple To Play Aggressively And Seem To Be Actively Scumhunting When You Are Just Taking An Abrasive Tone With Small Attacks On Individuals.

I Do Not Find It Helpful For Town To Be Domineering In This Way. Although I Do Not Know If Pomegranate Intends To Do This, I Feel That It Is Important To Make The Possibility Known Before It Happens.

I wouldn't say Pom isn't domineering, or hasn't been, but I would disagree entirely that she had been agressive. On the other hand, RayFrost has been both domineering and agressive. He warns us against this possibility, says that it is unhelpful for the town, and does it himself, in the midst of pointing this out. As he says in his second paragraph there, there's a line between aggressively scumhunting and just being aggressive to other players (and I already wrote my view of that) -- I read Ray as simply aggressive and abrasive. I don't see much in his posts other than finger-pointing and inflaming comments.
I also find it interesting in the last paragraph that, this was while Ray's vote was on Pom, yet the final paragraph is written in a very, very strong way -- highlighting that Pom is town. The first two are written as general advice, but the third is the only one that references both Pom directly and Town directly. While it could be a writing flaw, those sorts of slips can be incredibly telling. I think Freud was a quack, but I'm speaking of a slip somewhat similar to his. This is absolutely fascinating and the implications could be quite heavy.

But what is the purpose of your questioning at this point in time? As in, how would this information help you in terms of your scum hunting?

I did mean outright sacrifice, not just distancing or bandwagoning. It's frankly just a question, and only that. Curiousity killed the Theta, you know.

[ThetaSigma]

I has a question and observation.

Is no one looking at Chauchau?

She posed a list of questions, one for each of the six of us. we answered those questions for her, but no one seems to have thought to question her back. On top of that, four of the five questions were directly related to the two biggest targets at the time -- Pom and RayFrost. Her next round of questioning directly indicated a hint of scumminess from Pom --

"Pom, page five into the game and I have seen no scum hunting from you. What say you to this, particularly after your scumtell post?"

The round after that, she returns again to creating a dichotomy between Pom and Frost:

"So what makes Frost's comments versus Pom's more suspicious?"

This definitely seems like intense redirection and creating a false dichotomy for the rest of us to decide between.

On that note, it's time for Chau's interview.
Chauchau, who are your favored contenders for scum? Why? Why are you focusing on Ray and Pom so much and directing questions to be answered in the form of this person or that?

[ThetaSigma]

pardon, four of the SIX INITIAL questions.

[ThetaSigma]

Pardon, my brain is on hiatus. Please insert proper numbers in my stead, because the vodka is getting to me. My point stands. six of the 8 questions. something like that. time to look sheepish again. sheepish and tipsy.

[ThetaSigma]

No, no, I just missed it. well, sort of, I read it and forgot. Sorry. And it really was intended as a generalization more than anything. :/ look what happens when I go outside my comfort zone!

*goes back to yo-yo*

[ThetaSigma]

*eyes pom* if it wouldn't mean a lynch now, I would have shifted my vote. put the pressure on a bit. But someone's already done that. I'm interested to hear what she does have to say. Frankly, I do very much agree with the assessment that her scumhunting has been nil, and do very much find that suspicious.

I, of course, don't know if you all see me as a reasonable investigator, I hope so, but I'm still, indeed, trying to figure out my style.

Of course lurkers are quite eyebrow-raising; if you think my intellectual tendencies are a good shield against getting a read, I suppose that is even better, and I agree that it seems incredibly suspicious. Speak up, folks, let us know yr not scum?

On a side note:
I have not stated my gender at all. I can keep up being called a specific gender for a while, and I suppose that the avatar could make 'male' a valid assumption. Is this what y'all are going off to assume my gender? I'm curious.

[ThetaSigma]

not much to say at the moment, in the middle of a meaty peer-reviewed journal article, but I do have this to say:

Unvote

.

[ThetaSigma]

I need to re-read and re-evaluate everyone and everything.
Also reanalyze Frost's attitude vs it being scummy. I don't think it is, and my reasoning, well, I don't agree with my own reasoning from when I cast the vote, at this point.

Tomorrow, I will re-read, and analyze and post lots of meaningless drivel.

[ThetaSigma]

Well, it's scummy to use the fact that it's hard for you to scumhunt as an excuse, which he(/she) seemed to be doing.

My excuse wasn't that I find it hard to scumhunt. Rather, I wasn't even trying to make excuses. I merely stated that I prefer to analyze facts than to make wild stabs in the dark and hope that I guess correctly. Even more improperly, you voted this after quoting my explanation that I am -shy- and don't let my emotions out all that well -- this has nothing to do with scumhunting.

By the way, I'm still using mass amounts of analysis, not guesswork, and you seem to think my analytical method is satisfactory. If you want to fault me for being a shy noob, knock yourself out. I'll 'improve' in your definition of 'theory' (generally defined as 'educated conjecture', which you have already misdefined as 'gut feeling', which is more of a hunch than a theory -- check your vocabulary or I will pick it to pieces) as I become more comfortable with the game in general.

I dont know what to think, really. I guess I'll have to read some more and gather

So for now, Unvote unless I find anyone more suspicious than Pom

Can I call you Waffles?
This sounds significantly like my unvote ('OMG I'm confused now!') but not for the same reason -- Why unvote Pom if she's still the one most suspicious to you? If it's to back down from the possibility of an accidental or quicklynch, why not say so? what's up here?

---------

Quite important stuff down here:

I've been thinking of this all day. and I'm going to post it now, because my mind is all awash with just why:

V/LA until early next week.

This is

limited posting

-- I will probably be able to keep up with reading. However, I realized today that my stress level is so high I need to back off from hobbies to focus on schoolwork, as most of my mental power is taken up worrying about having my wisdom teeth out on Friday afternoon. And I'll be on painkillers at least over the weekend and I don't really think I should be making drugged-up posts on here. At least, no big important ones. I expect to be back up and mentally running (circles around everyone ) by Tuesday, if not slightly earlier. It depends on how cranky I am from not smoking and how pained I am as well.

[ThetaSigma]

brief update post:

V/LA: small extension

-- complications have arisen. I'll try to make some sort of sensible post very soon.

As for nonsense, if anyone wants to query on this little list, it'd help me organize my addled thoughts.

Currently very suspicious of:
Pom
Vapor (though he really does seem just like a dumb easy target -- that'd be village idiot, right?)

I find Pom to be more suspicious just because Vapor seems to be totally clueless, and the fact that Pom is all over him like bread on butter makes me suspect that unless (my earlier query regarding) self-sacrifice is true, then only one is scum.

As Unsuspicious As Possible:
Honest Abel
RayFrost
Chauchaudotcom

[ThetaSigma]

I've actually strained myself from using too many here, but I guess that's obviously not working.

Wait what? From this quote I got that you were increasing the amount of emoticons you normally use as opposed to decreasing.

I think this should be read "I've actually

re

strained myself."

It made sense to me.

[ThetaSigma]

Uhhhm. You can consider me back now. And being picked on. d'aww, am I really that scummy? New people make me feel awkward; forum won't post reply in foxfire, Opera is having issues, I'll post in a lil bit and probably nothing will come of it because I feel totally lost and confused.

Lookin forward to bein lynched. *thumbsup* it's gonna happen.

[ThetaSigma]

TS randomly incriminates Chau (notes say: "wut abuout chau-scum?")

'Incriminates?' Really? Talk about a loaded word. My intention was to try and get others to start asking Chau questions back, as she was doing all the asking. I wanted to be sure no one had forgotten to look past them and get curious about her.

I can't believe any of you missed this: TS showed intent to hammer Pome

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a hammer is defined as the L-0 vote. I did not show intent to hammer, I said I would have been willing to L-1 because I think Pom is that suspicious. NOT HAMMER. If I'd had intent to lynch Pom right then and there, I would have. I didn't. Once more, very loaded words.

Watch your tongue.

[ThetaSigma]

I'd like yr advice, folks, before I proceed any further.

I'm trying to get the motivation to return to this game, however, all the player changes and my V/LA has left me feeling disconcerted and out of the loop. I have no idea who anyone was or is or how to read them or what to do. Total loss.

I'm tempted to sub out, just because I know I'm not doing well, and while I think I could, I end up in these positions where everyone says everything else before me. I end up nodding and agreeing with nothing to contribute -- Honest Abel rocked my socks and I'm sad to see him go.

Someone asked why I said I would vote Pom (and, tbph, I didn't even specify I would L-1. I'd been considering voting her since she was at L-3, but once the L-2 landed I decided I'd wait and see, instead of putting her at L-1. once put there, I decided hell no.) without giving a reason. I didn't give a reason because I didn't actually vote. I stated a brief opinion of concurrence. Had I stated a reason, it would have just been a rehash of every argument against her from Chau and Honest Abel. I didn't feel it was necessary to post a huge reasoning behind "I might have voted," when not actually voting.

I still think Pom's suspicious. And I still think every point I could make has been said already. Do you wanna read the same stuff four times? Really?

So anyways. Stay? Go? Lynch me for not posting?

(as for 'not posting' and 'acting like a VI, I won't argue the latter cos I don't want a huge spiel -- I'm sure I've been not doing well and don't need it spelled out. But I spent a week in serious pain -- three wisdom teeth taken out at age 26, subsequent infection, and still recovering from dry socket. if you think that's not a reason to take a LoA, go have three teeth ripped out and get two bad surgical complications, then try to be coherent. Kay? Kay.)

[ThetaSigma]

the split's Pom/Riza, right? Good split. I say both

I'll try to write something up in the morning, afternoon or night tomorrow, but thank you surgery, I has all sorts of classes to catch up on. On wednesday, I will officially have 10 hrs of videotaped lecture to watch. So yeh, busy busy.

[ThetaSigma]

*wakes up and crawls out of mess of homework and half-eaten meals*

whoah.

I spaced a bit.

I agree with Chau, Pom's my first, Riza sort of following, (y'all make decent arguments), but unlike Chau I have no hope that two will hop to pom even if I threw my vote down.

is it bad form if I lay the hammer down now? Should I? I don't know.

[ThetaSigma]

woe is me. *whips out the ouija board*

so much for Newbieland, eh?

<3 thanks y'all. cept whomever shot me in the head. that wasn't cool

[ThetaSigma]

Thanks for the game y'all. I stuck around and kept up with it.... what a mess.

I was really that town? T_T d'aww.

I am, however, fail at this mafia thing. So thanks for putting up with me. And Ray, thanks for [ongoing omission]. Your comments, much appreciated and made me go 'aww'.

Btw. Theta's a girl.

[ThetaSigma]

I like screwing with people regarding gender roles online.

You're quite right. But I do that with everything, so I'm not surprised. In the end, this game just made me feel worse when I tried to play, so yeah, not for me. (Nooo, Theta doesn't -get- to have fun cos having fun is scummy, apparently )

Tempted to try again, but know I'll just end up sneaking away unnoticed.

So yah, thanks again. :3