Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[VP Baltar]

/confirm

[VP Baltar]

/confirm

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Vi

clear scum now.

[VP Baltar]

I don't follow why you voted SerialClergyman.

I agree, why didn't you vote Vi there?

[VP Baltar]

IT'S CAUSE HE KNOWS THAT VI IS TOWN. And that you're scum, VP... Either way, he's your partner then so therefore

que?

[VP Baltar]

Votecount as of this post:

Vi(3): VP Baltar, Ojanen, Scien
SerialClergyman(2): Sando, PorkchopExpress
Albert B. Rampage(1): SerialClergyman,
PorkchopExpress(1): Vi
Sando(1): Amished

Not Voting(4): Zorblag, Albert B. Rampage, charlatan, Debonair Danny DiPietro
With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

IT'S CAUSE HE KNOWS THAT VI IS TOWN. And that you're scum, VP... Either way, he's your partner

then so therefore

que?

Obvious joke vote, VP.

Yer, it was a deadpan reply to the bolded grammatical beauty.

[VP Baltar]

Ok... maybe an accusation to get you to talk then?

The reason you add the l-# to the your votes when you are the first vote or part of an early wagon would be that you don't want backlash from the person you are voting, as you don't want to get dragged into discussion. However you do want to vote to avoid suspicion. Adding the very high l-# softens the vote's blow, and makes it less likely to get a hard negative response from the voted party.

This is highly irrelevant since she does it in EVERY SINGLE GAME.

[VP Baltar]

I went to check after I prompted him for more.

Actually it looked like you only went back after I told you that you were flat out wrong.

Unvote, Vote: Scien

Lynch all liars.

[VP Baltar]

Votecount as of this post:

Vi(2): Ojanen, Scien
SerialClergyman(2): Sando, PorkchopExpress
Albert B. Rampage(2): SerialClergyman, Zorblag
Sando(1): Debonair Danny DiPietro
Scien(4): Amished, Vi, VP Baltar, charlatan

Not Voting(1): Albert B. Rampage
With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

I was checking after I prompted him for more. I finished and came back after you posted. Nice opportunism there though.

I'm around, but also at work. Are you guys really telling me you want immediate actions out of me?

So you are suggesting that it took you over an hour to find a couple games where Vi used the L-# in her voting?

Which games did you look at and how did you find them?

[VP Baltar]

Vote: VP Baltar

...Vi is a he.

Take your lady boy obsession elsewhere.

[VP Baltar]

So after a question that was pretty much a play style question, my vote's meaning changes? I made no accusations based off it yet. That was all part of the trump up to get you to respond to me.

What was it then if not an accusation? What were your other reasons for voting Vi?

[VP Baltar]

Lay off on the drugs VP Baltar.

It's a touch late for the intervention. I have some coconut rum, however, if you're ready to see things my way.

[VP Baltar]

That's probably cause you be the scumz with Scien, ABR. I calls 'em likes I sees 'em.

[VP Baltar]

Lynch ABR time?

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so we have ABR-Scien scum thus far....third person is slightly more challenging.

Sando perhaps?

[VP Baltar]

I don't believe I've seen ABR so touchy before. Clearly on the right path here.

[VP Baltar]

in our new growing early accusation exchange I'm not sure how touchy VP Baltar expects Albert B. Rampage to be

I don't expect an experienced player who is town to be sensitive at all about being called scum this early in the game.

In any case Albert B. Rampage is here and poking at things which is what I want him to be doing

Really? I just see him basically diddling himself in the thread and being forced to participate.

[VP Baltar]

@VP Baltar, how much of Albert B. Rampage's play have you seen previously?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Enough to make a judgement call on it.

[VP Baltar]

@VP Baltar, clearly you've seen enough of Albert B. Rampage's play to make a judgment call on it as you were willing to make a judgment call on his play. I don't think that the judgment call you're making fits all that well with my experience with his play and I'm trying to figure out how much that should be an issue for me. Is there a reason you'd rather not answer my question in a useful way?

I don't see what's not useful about it. You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation of his reaction when I pushed toward him, but I'm speaking more about him as a player with plenty of games under his belt than I am to any specific meta points. Everyone plays differently, of course, but there is a certain standard of play I expect from people who I respect as players and are experienced. If I see variances from that, expect me to call him/her on it.

[VP Baltar]

That reads as a little strange, VP, with the standard of play generalization rhetorics.

I don't believe I've seen ABR so touchy before.

This does imply meta, and I'd find it useful if you answered more specifically from where it comes.

That comment does not speak to something that would be meta exclusive to ABR, nor was it drawn from a specific point in any single game. My playing experience with ABR is limited, but from my memory I don't recall him being so personally reactive in various games I have read him in.

Outlandish? Sure. Antagonistic? Definitely. Flustered into pushing his RVS vote as serious after a flippant call for his lynch... not so much.

[VP Baltar]

A one vote wagon?

[VP Baltar]

So would you call ABR's play bad here; if yes, why?

I think it was reactionary, which is suspicious because it points out a sensitivity to being called scum.

No, seriously, surely there's some memory trail of the various games you've read him in, some fuzzy idea what those might have been (you don't need to dig up links or anything, just gimme some names).

Off the top of my head, I remember reading him as town in Incognito's Chosen game and some open with Jahudo. Most recently though (Quick and Dirty, The Amish Village) he's been scum.

@VP and Zorblag: Do you think ABR is hiding behind the masons to indirectly address VP's(your) accusations?

I don't think it's worth bringing discussioni about the masons into at this point.

[VP Baltar]

ABR making a joke about cocaine/your ass does not strike me as particularly out of the norm, for what it's worth.

It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care. I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.

re: WoW discussion-I dunno anything about it. You can make me whatever is left over.

[VP Baltar]

Votecount as of this post:

Vi(2): Ojanen, Scien
SerialClergyman(1): PorkchopExpress
Sando(2): Debonair Danny DiPietro, Vi
Scien(3): Amished, VP Baltar, charlatan
PorkchopExpress(1): Sando
Ojanen(1): Zorblag
VP Baltar(2): SerialClergyman, Albert B. Rampage

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

VP Baltar, what do you think of what I'm saying about Mr. Sandoman?

I'm a little nyeh on it...but we were also burnt by Sando in Quick and Dirty, so that's definitely influencing my hesitance.

So in asking for how I'm lurking, you decide to post a rundown of my posts... That was clever of you, well done, quite useful, I'm sure.

She's saying your posts are devoid of content, which is fairly true.

[VP Baltar]

Mod- if it's not too much trouble, could you put vote counts in their own posts. It is ok if they aren't at the top of each page.

[VP Baltar]

so in questioning something which you yourself, VPB, have said is odd to have not recieved an adequate response from Porkchop, I'm not being constructive?

Huh? I don't recall saying anything of that nature...but my memory can be spotty. Quote if I did.

BTW VPB, you weren't burnt in Quick and Dirty, you watched a mis-lynch with all 3 scum on it and the NK target telling you it was a stupid lynch (and who was pushing scum) pass you by, oh and the only other wagon of the day was on scum.

Well, I was pushing for the scum lynched on Amished by the end of the day, but you certainly weren't doing the town any favors by taking such an unhelpful and indignant attitude toward your lynch. I would hope you learned from that experience.

@DDD-trend analysis this game?

Liking the ABR pressure and I'm coming over.

Unvote, Vote: ABR

[VP Baltar]

How serious did you take my attack on you at first ABR?

But out of everyone, I think VP's the scummiest so far.

Why's that? I've yet to see an actual reason from you.

[VP Baltar]

No problem, what's your new plan of action then?

[VP Baltar]

I don't have any solid reasons for voting VP, it's just gut.

Somehow I don't buy that this makes me the scummiest person in the game thus far.

VP: I find it helpful for rereading to have votecounts at the top of the page. If most of you find it distasteful I'll discontinue. I will start doing separate posts though.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I just think it is easier to iso you for votecounts than it is to go to each page individually when I want to analyze vote counts later. If it's a hassle for you, then I don't mind you putting them at the top of the page. I was just asking, but I respect that it's your game.

If we don't discriminate in our actions, we are acting no better than at random.

My personal policy is that any bandwagon is a good one.

Lynch this scum now please.

[VP Baltar]

Also VPB, you attack Serial for a gut vote, yet up until your latest post, this is basically what your attack on ABR has been. And yes, meta is basically gut.

It has nothing to do with gut. Nowhere in my arguments do a I say anything about gut. Read the thread.

I have comments on SC as well, but I'm reserving them at the moment until I see more play from him.

[VP Baltar]

gut = undefined misgivings, non-specific

judgement call = based on specific reaction


Also, is there a point in this game when you're going to stop bitching about there not being content and actually scumhunt?

[VP Baltar]

See, it's rubbish comments like that one from VP that I don't like. He's not bitching about a lack of content, he's making a specific accusation against you. His argument said you are hypocritical for attacking someone for only having a gut reason when you yourself have used mostly gut so far to come to your reads. This is scumhunting, or what passes for it early on D1.

I have explained the difference between gut and attacking over specific details. Please don't make me resort to visual aids. And he is indeed bitching over lack of content:

In fact of content, there's SFA.

Saying that there's no content in my argument when there is. He also tried to excuse his own non-participation in the argument with Vi by saying that he can't be expected to be scumhunting very much when there wasn't really any content in the thread. Well boo-hoo, we're all in the same game and yet some of us still manage to try and find scum.

You also invoked lynch all liars for what barely passed for a 'lie', you were surprised Albert was touchy when being accused of scum, alluded to meta reasons for suspecting Albert but produced none when asked, Didn't join the Albert wagon until there was someone else on it.

How is a glaring contridiction between two things stated in this thread not scummy? He's adjusting his stance to whatever is convenient for his argument, which happens to have significant scum motivation behind it.

Your argument about when I joined the ABR wagon is ridiculously stupid since I attacked him first. You insinuating I'm following charlatan when in reality I had to convince him in the first place of why I thought ABR is scummy is dishonest at best. As far as the meta point about ABR, read the thread since that was fully explained and cited previously.

[VP Baltar]

He is not arguing you are failing to provide content

The first bolded comment looks like gut to me, the second is about the closest thing you've said to a case on ABR. There's not a lot there other than meta/gut.

In fact of content, there's SFA.

This quote is pure rubbish. The man is scumhunting.

You two playing together is not a good thing if you're going to get butt hurt every time one or the other gets attacked over something. If his play constitutes actual scum hunting in your eyes, then give me my Scummy for Paragon of Scum Hunters now so we can get it over with.

As for the rest, invoking lynch all liars is importnat. You are saying that the man should be lynched because he is lying and we need to maintain a disclipline not to lie in thread. I think you did it way too early and way too flippantly. I didn't like it.

I NEVER SAID HE LIED ABOUT ANYTHING, NOR DID I SAY LYNCH ALL LIARS.

Nor does it even constitute a lie. It is a contradiction in his professed philosophy toward the game and his approach in this particular instance/his reasoning for accusing me of being scum. He's contradicting his own claimed town meta. That = needs to be lynched.

I'm not accusing you of following anyone, I'm accusing you of not backing your reads and being prepared to go out on a limb.

So by being the only person arguing for something and convincing people of what I see as scummy actions against a particular player I'm not going out on a limb. If my vote was RVS based, I could at least understand where you are coming from, but it was on Scien previously -who has also acted scummy (and disappeared from the thread apparently).

[VP Baltar]

Ok, cool. Misunderstanding on that. I'm talking about ABR now. With respect to it being "too early" to say that about Scien, it was one of the first accusations and was hardly serious as much as it was meant to pressure him.


At the present state, however, you should vote ABR.

[VP Baltar]

VP, my problem with you is that at first you implied meta from ABR that was contradictory to what I (and several others seem to) have

I don't really understand what you are expecting me to say here. I don't see ABR as the "master-of-omgus", as you put it. On the general level, I see this as noobish play and ABR is plenty experienced not to be playing like that. On the specific level, I don't recall reading games with ABR behaving as such.

I've given you some games I recall reading ABR in, so if you're flat out declaring that is how ABR plays, then link me the games you are referencing. Also, who are these "several others"? Troll is the only one I can see who seemed to be speaking about ABR's specific meta like that.

I don't think Sando and Serial need to be accused of not being able to play unbiasedly enough together. I remember seeing them accuse each other quite rabidly in mafia 102 as town-town on D1.

Well that's fancy. I wasn't in that game, nor have I read it. But in the past two games I have seen them in (here and Quick & Dirty), they do indeed demonstrate a bias toward one another, imo. I think it happens to a lot of players who know each other IRL. I'm not trying to make it an insult, but I think blatant defending of another player early in the game when you probably dont' have any kind of actual read on their slot shows a clear bias that could come back to bite either of them in the future.

What's your read of ABR, btw? Since you're concerned about empty rhetoric, what do you think about his approach to bandwagons here?

[VP Baltar]

So when Serial in one game said 'I think Sando is town' and turned out to be dead on, you went with it being a biased fluke over the rather more obvious 'these 2 know each other well and read a lot of each others game, and he read the meta well'?

Defending you as actually scumhunting when you clearly are doing very little of it is being biased.

As far as the other game, he was indeed right, but that does not mean there weren't times when he was irrationally defending you. I don't expect you to agree with me on it anyhow since you're personally invested in it. I'm just telling you what I see.

Ongoing.
Fuzzy impressions about reading some midgame in War in Heaven 2.

Ok, so you have nothing to back up what you are arguing for now.

From your meta, I was actually in Chosen as a late replacement, Albert never got much heat there.

So? He wasn't under any kind of heat here either.

The selective wagoning makes me think more about his inherent pompous forum style, it is only proper from the righteous role he's playing that he should be the one to start a bandwagon and the rest of that stuff.

No, he specifically said that "any bandwagon" would do, not "any bandwagon I start".

Hard to say so early, but I've disliked his voters more than him.

Well, we all know you and I can't get along, but I haven't heard you say anything about charlatan. What don't you like about him?

Pretty sure of yourself eh? Sure of one scum pairing on page 5... And sure that it is chainsaw defense instead of him buddying me... Dang you are good. Got information that I don't to help you be so good?

It's called experience and a good intuition.

You most definitely were implying meta specific to ABR there.

Not giving a knee-jerk OMGUS when someone calls you scum is something that is just good town play and is hardly specific to only ABR.

* Looking and suggesting pairings with close to nothing to back it up. Even if you claimed chainsaw defense as evidence or proof, you wouldn't know if you had found friends or enemies, and from what I have seen you have done nothing to determine which you have found if you truly believe in your pairing suggestion.

Well, I'd hope the masons play better than that. That's all I'm saying on the issue.

Are you trying to do the tried and true 'everyone loves to try and lynch me in day 1' shtick?

I'm just surviving and pointing out the scums.

[VP Baltar]

Oh ho, but you definitely did. This is the funniest thing in the game so far, because it's far closer to an outright lie than ABR's fuzzy logic was. I'm going to go ahead and be the fourth person to mention it since you still haven't addressed it in your last few posts.

I thought he was talking about ABR, which is why I was so annoyed because I didn't say that about ABR. Frankly, I didn't even recall saying it about Scein and it was obviously just a flippant remark meant to pressure.

[VP Baltar]

find VPB's bulldog attacks very scummy indeed. Not only does he pull nonsense out of his ass, he actually tries to defend them as valid arguments.

So you think being aggressive is a scumtell?

Also, I haven't heard you actually address much of anything I've said about you, but rather you seem content to let others defend you. Which arguments are "out of my ass"?

[VP Baltar]

Everyone, cut it out about the LAL stuff. I'm sure he as scum didn't think he was going to pull a fast one and deny it out of existence. As soon as he starts yelling in capitals that he didn't do something he obviously did it's a breakdown in communication, not a scumtell. Was going to rip into sando, but he had the good sense to reread and come to the same conclusion.

This paragraph surprised me a bit. Earlier I didn't feel like SC was playing to his town-meta as much, particularly when he seemed to be directly hunting scum rather than town-hunting (which is what I have come to expect from him). However, I don't think it is likely that a scum-SC would seek to ease those kinds of attacks. +big town points here

What was weird to me about the exchange with VP was that, at least form my perspective, he made a bad point on Sando, I pointed it out and he went straight to 'you're full butt hurt for your friend'. No looking at other games I've played with sando where were town-town fought and scum accused, no acknowledgement that in the game he's drawing his conclusions off I was right and the wagon I was pushing instead was scum that was never lynched. And I barely said anything in sando's favour, my main point was that VP was deflecting with a shallow attack.

I'm basing it off of my experience with you two from Quick and Dirty. Now, I do indeed recognize that you were correct about Sando's alignment in that game (let's not forget that I ended up agreeing with you there eventually), and you deserve plenty of credit there. However, my issue comes with what you are defending him over and how vehemently you both want to step in on attacks against the other. My general philosophy toward mafia is to try and let players defend themselves unless you are like 90% certain you know what their alignment is. In this particular instance, I would say that you are most likely not that certain about Sando's alignment and so I find it irritating when you respond to something I say to him as if you were his guardian angel. You did do something similar in Quick and Dirty when I was first attacking Sando and it annoyed me there too because it undercuts me trying to get my own reads on players. Like I said before, I don't expect to convince either of you that you're being slightly biased, but that's my perspective on it.

I just find the way he latches on to me pretty scummy. If he drops his ridiculous accusations I'll probably explore new avenues of discussion too.

So now you're bargaining to get me to back off? I'm open to plenty of other avenues of discussion, but I'm also quite happy that in the least my attacks on you have generated plenty of discussion and stance taking by a large number of players.

Albert B. Rampage plays a game that makes people think that he's scum. He does it when he's scum or town. He lies about his views when he thinks there's a temporary gain to be had from it, he throws suspicions around for no good reasons other than to get reactions, he does whatever he thinks will get a rise out of other players in order to get reads on them, he's perfectly willing to jerk people around and avoid answering questions to see how they'll squirm under pressure and how they'll try to apply it.

Ok. And I respect that you have a better meta of him than I do, so I'm certainly taking it under advisement. That being said, at what point do you personally try to determine his alignment and stop saying, 'Oh, that crazy ABR. He's so silly'?

Even if a player is known to play uselessly for most of the game, I'm still inclined to push what would otherwise be considered scummy actions and try to figure out that player's alignment. I mean, look at Quick and Dirty and how much ABR got a pass for doing very little.

Same thing could be said about DDD's lurking here too.

You say that there's no reason for experienced town to have acted as Albert B. Rampage did. If that's true then there should really be no reason for scum to react that way either; clearly an experienced player would know better. It's not true though, a perfectly good reason for town (or scum) to act that way would be to draw reactions out of the other players and that's exactly what I would expect from Albert B. Rampage.

Yeah, and I have considered that to some degree. I do think a scum is more likely to play a reactionary game than a town is, however, because ultimately they do know they have something to hide. It is possible that ABR was acting for reactions, but I think him going back and forth on whether or not he thinks I'm scum as players have questioned or supported him respectively is a bit shady and beyond what you are describing as the same old lovable ABR.

To stick up for ABR somewhat, I have specific meta of Albert town making the request to not hunt for connections in a friends and enemies game.

This is a fair enough point and not something I think would be likely to come from scum. Was it outwardly discussed in that game afterward or is this something you are just now mentioning for the first time?

That's because I don't actually think VPB's role is as scummy as his strategy is stupid. You would know this if you read the thread.

Actually, you've stated both positions at various times, seemingly as the tide has shifted. I do agree that our little back and forth has probably run its course at this point, but being revisionist doesn't fly in my book, young 'un.

But rather than look for little scummy intricacies to base a vote on, I just skip the pleasantries and go right into OMGUS. Think of it as my counter-strategy or insect repellent.

Can you link some recent games as town so I can see this in action?

Well, that's convenient for you. So, two players I find particularly scummy early in the game are arguing, and I also think the points they are raising against each other are largely weak (which I believe to be a more or less reliable scumtell early in the game).

In fairness, the points I've raised about ABR haven't really changed since you first agreed with me and voted him. There's merely been some elaboration. So, if you think the points are weak (which is apparently scummy), I don't understand why you voted in the first place

Because I'd rather be voting Rampage at the moment

This seems intentionally obtuse. Troll, eat this man's first child.


Porkchop, you actually playing this game or just visiting?

[VP Baltar]

Do you think I agreed with every point you've raised the entire game? I agreed with you on one point early in. (The point that I mentioned at the time and also again in my last post.) There are others I do not like. Again, these are available for you to read in my last post.

Well, I want to look specifically at your vote:

It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.

I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.

Ah, yes, I do agree with that. Actually, it's even a stretch to call it "legitimately" accusing you of being scum, since there has never been any indication from Ramp as to why you're scum aside from the fact that you like drugs, and I think we all know that drugs appeal to those from all walks of life regardless of criminal persuasion. I wouldn't think twice about it if he hadn't called for others to pile on votes. Come to think of it:

Unvote
Vote: Albert B. Rampage

So, in that vote you are agreeing about ABR OMGUSing me over really no reason whatsoever.

However, when you are clarifying most recently you say:

Obviously, I agree with him in regards to the disconnect between Ramp's stated intentions for his votes and what they actually accomplish (and, as such, what his real intentions might be, as surmised surmised using -- get this -- my mind.)

I do not agree that Ramp is playing apart from him meta style-wise, in terms of being OMGUS-y, the cockiness, etc. In fact, those are my fave parts about him.

I don't really understanding you saying the bolded portion when the quote you cited before your vote (the first bolded line) is me directly talking about him OMGUSing me.... so, yeah, you can see people's confusion over your stance that you think one of ABR or I is scum.

Please. I push on one guy and mention that I think another's scummy, and suddenly have to answer for not voting for the secondary guy, when I never stopped questioning the first?

When the clearly implied question is 'what differentiates these two enough that you want to vote one over the other', yes you need to answer the question in a non-obtuse manner.

I know that you know as well as anyone else that Rampage also gets a free pass based entirely on this argument frequently.

I do agree with this, however.

But rather than look for little scummy intricacies to base a vote on, I just skip the pleasantries and go right into OMGUS. Think of it as my counter-strategy or insect repellent.

Can you link some recent games as town so I can see this in action?

Waiting.

And finally,

Unvote, Vote: charlatan

[VP Baltar]

One is a question of style meta, one is a question of the vote-morphing justification. Ironically, this is what I misunderstood in your quote way back when, only now reversed. When I said "OMGUS-y, the cockiness, etc." I was referring to what you called him being "personally reactive" and "touchy". I do not think these are legitimate reasons to attack him over, but I do think revisionist history is.

Well, I was pushing them as related, but even moving past that, let's look again at the quote you cited and voted after:

charlatan wrote:


It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.

I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.

Ah, yes, I do agree with that. Actually, it's even a stretch to call it "legitimately" accusing you of being scum, since there has never been any indication from Ramp as to why you're scum aside from the fact that you like drugs, and I think we all know that drugs appeal to those from all walks of life regardless of criminal persuasion. I wouldn't think twice about it if he hadn't called for others to pile on votes. Come to think of it:

Unvote
Vote: Albert B. Rampage

The portion of my quote that you cited is very clearly talking about OMGUS ("accusing me of being scum after I said he was such"), so I don't see how you are now saying you don't agree with that when that appears to be exactly what you were agreeing with in that passage.

Some other points to clarify: I do not necessarily think "one of ABR or [you]" is scum. It's totally possible that neither or both of you are. Most of the players in this game had not even posted enough to leave much of an impression on me either way. Early on Day 1 I said you two were my top suspects and it was like, oh damn, shocking revelation.

Do you feel like people are trying to lock you into a position where you have to commit to either ABR or me?

VP and Amished - what do you think of Ojanen so far?

Given that I've had a bit of interaction with her as scum lately, I'm on the watch to say the least. As far as her play this game, it seems a bit guarded in the sense that she's not posting a ton, but I don't necessarily feel that she's pushing any scummy wagons at this point. I don't have an alignment read on her either way at this point yet, however.

VP - I am going off the town hunt thing. I wasn't successful so much in correctly identifying town - I was OK, but not great. The lessons from it are 1) beware of conf bias early at all costs and b) be very prepared to look for townies as well as look for scum.

I was already going off the strict look purely for town when I played 880, hence I pushed Amished scum, and i've been doing a mix of both for a little while now.

Damn you and DDD and your changing tactics after I finally start to get used to your approaches.

@Charlatan: What in particular changed your mind about VP?

Pretty sure he never said that.

Join one of them to attack the other? I had spats with both of them prior to the quote in question, was voting for one already, and helped neither.

I don't recall having a spat with you.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar: I can’t see where Serial stated he thought I was town? From where I sat it looked like he just said I was scumhunting. Last game yeah, he said it, haven’t seen it this game.

This is really one of the most relevant things you can find to comment on?

Also, defending a player before he or she has had a chance to reply in my book is at least implying some sort of town read on that person...which I explained earlier in the thread.

Anyone:
Is it just me or did the VPB/ABR thing go; VPB and ABR go at each others throats, then decide to jump on to the person who attacks them for it. This seems a little staged to me…

Yep, and you all played directly into our hand. Boy are you guys stupid.

charlatan is still an excellent lynch today. DDD is probably second. While I know he can be a bit defiant when the town puts demands on him, lurking is indeed a scumtell for him in my experience.

And speaking about Mafia of Order, DDD, are you trying to insist that you didn't really contribute there similar to what you are doing in this game? I don't believe that's true and we can go look through the first 14 pages there if you'd like.

[VP Baltar]

OMG it happened a few pages ago, ancient history!

The point isn't that it's too long ago, but rather that in the stretch that you were absent when a lot discussion happened (and continues to happen) the trivial matter of me thinking SC is playing your guardian is one of the most important things for you to comment on. I don't see how this is supposed to determine anyone's alignment considering it was me venting my frustration more than anything.

You weren't even saying I was scum, just that I was bitching and posting no content. If your attack isn't saying that I'm scum, how is him defending me saying that I'm not scum?

learn logic please.

[VP Baltar]

No, lurkers you can't get a read on hurt games. If you can get a good read on a lurker then there is no need to care about their activity status.

Well, I don't think anyone is reading you as town atm, so....

SC, I did not agree with VP's assertion that Ramp was personally touchy.

And this is the grounds that you are calling me scum over? I'm unimpressed.

In Mafia of Order I had all of three posts in the first days of the game and the VPB was unimpressed with the content I eventually generated.

In fairness, that was the first time I saw "trend analysis" wasn't it? You have to admit that is a bit strange and cryptic. It threw me off.

you can nitpick if you like but this is a fairly established and current (town) meta for me in this sort of game.

What does "this sort of game" mean?

I think the meta should be well established with all of that. Now that doesn’t mean I couldn’t be intentionally playing against meta (I’m not but whatever), but to suggest that my behavior in this game equates to my scum meta is just fallacious given recent history.

Ok, what do you think is the cause of your recently atrocious D1 play?

[VP Baltar]

Sorry to see you go Scien. Hope work gets better.

After DDD's last set of answers, I think I'm willing to give him another day and see how things go. He is right that he has had a propensity to lurk as town day 1 as of late. Even though I don't think his scumhunting thus far is that great, I certainly could see it just as a bad case combined with his strategy of "close my eyes and wait for day two", whereas charlatan I am definitely not seeing that much worth redeeming.

I think DDD is going to make himself more clear as the game goes on, but charlatan is just going to remain one big question mark for me until he's dealt with...so unless something drastic happens, my vote is p. much set.

[VP Baltar]

This is a particularly odd post. On one hand, you refer to me as irredeemable, but on the other want to park your vote because I am "one big question mark". I don't really see how it can be both at once, to be honest. Also, can you elaborate on how being a question mark = necessary to lynch?

I don't understnad the distinction you are trying to make here, at all. You have acted significantly scummy and until you are dead, those doubts about your alignment would be there.

You haven't answered well in terms of your thoughts on ABR or myself, and your "case" on SC leaves more than a little to be desired.

tl,dr: diescumdie

I particularly liked the assumption that no reads on me would ever become clearer in upcoming days. How do you figure?

You've had your chance to explain your thought process and that explanation has been convoluted at best. Future days will not change what you've explained thus far, only make people forget about it.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah? Is it just my play in Day 1 of this game that has convinced you that in future days, situations, and votes I will be equally problematic for you, or in general do you think I'm always "convoluted at best"? Did you feel the same way when I was scum last game? Or, if you remember that far back, our first game together (Cowboy Bebop), when you were scum and I was town?

No, actually I think you are super articulate and I really like reading your posts. My take on it is that you are scum who was hit with a barrage of pressure over your stance toward ABR and me, and when asked to explain those stances in detail you were forced to make up what you could to make it sound good. Personally, I don't find your replies sufficient with what your claimed stance on the matter is (that both ABR and I are both high on your suspect list).

I'm not saying I don't understand what you are saying in regards to that issue, because I do. I'm simply saying I don't believe what you are saying.

Which sort of brings me to my other point about the "big question mark". If you have this issue that I really don't believe you on and take to be scummy, no amount of days passing and other events happening is going to change this particular issue. You have already spoken on it and I didn't like your replies. Now, we could let you live and other stuff would happen and you'd post and people would probably forget all about your scumminess here, but none of that resolves the actual issue. It's still there and your responses are still scummy.

Knowing your alignment, however, does alleviate "the big question mark". In other words, a bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush.

So essentially we're still harping on page 5 + you don't like my SC vote. Is that fair to say? If you feel you've been clear then I apologize (I hate having to repeat myself) but in all likelihood it will be very important tomorrow that everyone is clear.

I'd say so, sure. But it doesn't really matter how many pages have passed, now does it?

Gentlemen, we have scum <3

Saw that coming. I still don't know if I'm sold on that tell though. You may have seen it work, but I haven't yet.

[VP Baltar]

Ah, so you thinking the SC case is weak doesn't have as much to do with it? There's a reason I'm asking.

It's not my main focus. It was something that was brought up that has some merit, but I think your explanations about your stance on ABR/VP are far more scummy. However, even those stances end up relating to your SC vote eventually because of how that vote came about after you unvoted ABR.

Since it's been a bit, let's try and clear this up: who are your top three scum suspects? If ABR and myself have now gone from that list, what is your current read?

On the other hand, scum are probably very happy with the way things are going right now and will not want to let this bandwagon move while I'm closest to a lynch. That is useless to everyone but me now, but will likely be worthwhile to look at tomorrow

Well, if I'm wrong then we'll look at that tomorrow I guess.


@Amished-Yeah, forgot about Jazzmyn there, so that's true. You do make compelling points and I like that you explain why you think you went wrong in the other game. Also, Reckoner didn't have any pressure at all, so I take that as a point in your favor.

I'm still hesitant about it because it seems like a big gamble since we have actual scummy behavior from charlatan to lynch on, but it's also day 1 where we have a little more leeway for error. I want to hear more from Reckoner (how he came to his early reads and what his reads are once he's fully caught up) before I make any final decision.

[VP Baltar]

First, I'll address charlatan's bundle of bogus (and by extension Oj I suppose):

What problem did you have about the way I unvoted ABR?

Hmm, perhaps its the fact that he was apparently your top suspect, but once you started catching flak over it you felt the need to unvote and change to SC seemingly out of left field.

The crux of most of the votes against me is a blown-out-of-proportion quote from the very early game.

This is pretty much an exaggeration. It wasn't even one of the first major things to come up in the game. Yes, we've been talking about it for awhile now, but you putting it like this seems like you're trying to make it sound like something trivial from RVS, which it is not.

Like, for instance, you recently remarked that you understand the clarifications I've made and you did not try to refute the points, you simply "don't believe them". That's different from calling them scummy

No, you're wrong. Me saying I don't believe the explanations you've given is equivalent of me saying they are scummy. I think you're making shit up to cover the sand dance you're doing.

Overall it seems a way to dismiss outright any defense I make and continue to push for the lynch of a guy you've never actually built a case against.

What? You seriously think you haven't been fairly questioned over it or I haven't explained where I'm coming from?

To the quotes!

Do you think I agreed with every point you've raised the entire game? I agreed with you on one point early in. (The point that I mentioned at the time and also again in my last post.) There are others I do not like. Again, these are available for you to read in my last post.

Well, I want to look specifically at your vote:

It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.

I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.

Ah, yes, I do agree with that. Actually, it's even a stretch to call it "legitimately" accusing you of being scum, since there has never been any indication from Ramp as to why you're scum aside from the fact that you like drugs, and I think we all know that drugs appeal to those from all walks of life regardless of criminal persuasion. I wouldn't think twice about it if he hadn't called for others to pile on votes. Come to think of it:

Unvote
Vote: Albert B. Rampage

So, in that vote you are agreeing about ABR OMGUSing me over really no reason whatsoever.

However, when you are clarifying most recently you say:

Obviously, I agree with him in regards to the disconnect between Ramp's stated intentions for his votes and what they actually accomplish (and, as such, what his real intentions might be, as surmised surmised using -- get this -- my mind.)

I do not agree that Ramp is playing apart from him meta style-wise, in terms of being OMGUS-y, the cockiness, etc. In fact, those are my fave parts about him.

I don't really understanding you saying the bolded portion when the quote you cited before your vote (the first bolded line) is me directly talking about him OMGUSing me.... so, yeah, you can see people's confusion over your stance that you think one of ABR or I is scum.

Please. I push on one guy and mention that I think another's scummy, and suddenly have to answer for not voting for the secondary guy, when I never stopped questioning the first?

When the clearly implied question is 'what differentiates these two enough that you want to vote one over the other', yes you need to answer the question in a non-obtuse manner.

^Here, I explain very clearly using your own quotes what the problem is.

Then you did some sand dancing and I again pointed out why I didn't believe you based on your own actions:

One is a question of style meta, one is a question of the vote-morphing justification. Ironically, this is what I misunderstood in your quote way back when, only now reversed. When I said "OMGUS-y, the cockiness, etc." I was referring to what you called him being "personally reactive" and "touchy". I do not think these are legitimate reasons to attack him over, but I do think revisionist history is.

Well, I was pushing them as related, but even moving past that, let's look again at the quote you cited and voted after:

charlatan wrote:


It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.

I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.

Ah, yes, I do agree with that. Actually, it's even a stretch to call it "legitimately" accusing you of being scum, since there has never been any indication from Ramp as to why you're scum aside from the fact that you like drugs, and I think we all know that drugs appeal to those from all walks of life regardless of criminal persuasion. I wouldn't think twice about it if he hadn't called for others to pile on votes. Come to think of it:

Unvote
Vote: Albert B. Rampage

The portion of my quote that you cited is very clearly talking about OMGUS ("accusing me of being scum after I said he was such"), so I don't see how you are now saying you don't agree with that when that appears to be exactly what you were agreeing with in that passage.

Subsequent to this you try to get in a semantics argument with me (which I take to be scummy from an experienced player such as yourself):

I think you're sticking on the one word quite a bit. There's a difference, especially with Rampage, with him simply calling you scum and insulting you (you're a scummy cocaine addict, bla bla har har) which is mundane and unimportant, and actually trying to build an active wagon on the basis that it has a clear pro-town goal, which he only decided to claim later, after he'd unvoted and seemingly moved on by dismissing you with "do I suffer fools like you? Nah." These are two different OMGUS-y kind of actions, one of which I couldn't care less about, and one of which was vote worthy.

Which I don't even feel is worth arguing with you about because I was very clearly referring to a single definition of OMGUS and now you are trying to squirm your way out of it. I'm not going to waste time having the same argument with you over and over when I feel you had a chance to explain yourself and failed to do so. This is why you need to be lynched.

Moving on to more charltan stuff:

ABR is not gone from that list. In fact, just two pages ago (post 374) I said he was a top suspect. That hasn't changed, especially since he hasn't been present the last few pages.

I wasn't saying for sure that he was gone from your list. I was asking for a clarification. This seems like an overly defensive response to the question I posed.

SercialClergyman is obviously a top suspect as well, and I will post more about him soon to make him respond to me instead of brushing me off.

Looking forward to it.

How is it a gamble? We're not up against a deadline. We have plenty of time to talk to Reckoner and make an informed decision.

Your recent posts have a vague urgency to them, like it's really important that everyone hurry and lynch me before something scummier comes along to steal the spotlight.

Major bullshit alert! Where is the sense of urgency? I'm not rushing anybody to vote you. I have simply stated my opinion on the matter, which is that I feel you are the best lynch for the day. Nowhere in any of my posts am I saying "hurry up everyone, you have to vote immediately!".

I would also like to know why you think me wanting your lynch is scummy, but ABR essentially doing the same thing (and with far less explanation) apparently does not register on your radar. My general impression is that you saw Oj's vote as an opportunity to bail from the SC vote, which was also garnering suspicion on you when you realized you had nothing of substance to push.

As far as Reckoner goes, I hope everyone notes your super selective quoting above. It's a gamble because we'd be lynching on Amished's "scumtell" pretty much alone. I'd hope you as town could understand hesitence over this. And I'm not even putting that option completely off the table, which is what you are saying. Had you cited my full quote, that would be obvious:

I'm still hesitant about it because it seems like a big gamble since we have actual scummy behavior from charlatan to lynch on, but it's also day 1 where we have a little more leeway for error.

I want to hear more from Reckoner (how he came to his early reads and what his reads are once he's fully caught up) before I make any final decision.

Scummy enough, in fact, that they cannot be explained. And, even if I do explain them, and even if those explanations are understandable and clear, they do not matter to him, because he simply does not believe them. (Hopefully he will clear that point up.)

Here's your clarification: misrepresentation full-tilt! Just because your words are understandable, which is what I was saying, does not mean your explanations are good or believable by me. That point is not difficult to understand in the least.

WRT xRx: I've looked through all (town and scum) games that he's linked to in his wiki and isolated those that he replaced into. Unfortunately he's only replaced into like 2 games outta 20; one as town and one as scum that I saw. (Come on, replace into games, help out moderators for crying out loud!)

In the two replacee games, he didn't talk about who he replaced at all.

So, if he didn't do that as scum before are you still inclined to follow the tell here?

[VP Baltar]

Sorry about the mega post. I normally try not to do that, but most if it's past stuff anyhow.

[VP Baltar]

What are your current feelings on charlatan, Amished?

[VP Baltar]

When have I ever steered you wrong when I'm town Amished? Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!!!

[VP Baltar]

@VP: How about when you told PCE to shoot me in Last Man Standing? How about after you helped finish off Benmage in said game you didn't have an early scum read on any of the remaining scum (where I shot Jazz and d3x).

I found 2 scum in that game (Ecto, pwnz) and said very early on that benmage was scum (no one was listened to me, however). I'd say I did plenty fine there. Your death was necessary to clarify the situation. Martyrdom is sweet.

How about when you wanted ckd dead for multiple days in LOST? Yes, I was scum but you were so far off the right track I wanted to keep you around forever.

He was honorary scum in that game. But I will say that with Santos' play there it was nigh impossible to be on the right track. Not a good game for me, but pobody's nerfect.

[VP Baltar]

So we'll turn it around, when we're both town, when do *I* lead *you* wrong when you don't agree with me?

You're my hero, second only to me.

To be honest, this conversation should be had over a beer. I don't see the relevence to the game. The past is the past, you can't rely on your history to make the case for you.

Probably.

I'm happy with the charlatan case and unhappy with ojanen pushing it but not jumping on it.

Yer.

[VP Baltar]

Where did he argue this? I didn't see it in an isoscan.

Pretty sure he's referring to this:

Which sort of brings me to my other point about the "big question mark". If you have this issue that I really don't believe you on and take to be scummy, no amount of days passing and other events happening is going to change this particular issue. You have already spoken on it and I didn't like your replies. Now, we could let you live and other stuff would happen and you'd post and people would probably forget all about your scumminess here, but none of that resolves the actual issue. It's still there and your responses are still scummy.

Knowing your alignment, however, does alleviate "the big question mark". In other words, a bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush.

Which is me basically explaining why I think his lynch is the best choice today instead of his argument of "something better is bound to come along".

@Serial and VPB: I've read pages and walls of text and everything going back and forth. I want both of you to summarize your 3 best points against Char in a paragraph each (so 3 paragraphs from each of you) on why you feel he's scum.

I'm not sure why it needs to be restated if you've read the thread, but ok.

1) His stance toward ABR and myself are inconsistent with his posts in thread: when he votes ABR he is seemingly agreeing with my point about ABR OMGUSing. Later he says he disagrees with this and that it was scummy for me to say so. Then I quote where he agrees with me. Then he says there are many types of OMGUS. etc. etc.

2) Misrepping and general weirdness. See my last big post to see a couple examples of clear misrep. Also, he exaggerates a mild questioning between he and I early as "spat", which indicates a guilty conscience to some degree, imo. Throw some general AtE in this pot as well with his BS about me trying to rush his lynch.

3) His voting most of the game has been poorly reasoned and seemingly meant to get suspicion off of him. His SC vote comes after he takes flak for ABR/VP-gate. Then he comes with a vote against me that isn't even for whatever the hell he found me scummy for before because people were on his back about the SC vote.

So, there you go. The highlights.

[VP Baltar]

Where are you getting this "something better is bound to come along" argument? I'm not even sure what you're referring to.

You constantly referring to how the attacks are you are from "early game" and we've been "harping on it for 5+ pages" or whatever the exact quote is. It's you essentially saying "come on guys, you've had your fun now move along".

[VP Baltar]

You know, it's still weird when we agree SC, but I'm almost certain that you're town.

Amished too, but he's stubborn like me.

[VP Baltar]

So maybe that's why we haven't agreed much. Interestingly, the results for those games seem to be going my way as well - is that 3.5 to 0.5?

wtf is this, heckle-VP day?

And I totally should have won Dark Goma outright. Amished's game we should have won if it weren't for shitty circumstance. so, you

Oh, before I forget: when was the last time you were almost certain someone was town, and how did that turn out?

Fairly well actually. My last completed town game was Last Man Standing and I had a town read on Vi very early even though she was calling for my head and was arguing down my awesome vote on benmage-scum. Thanks for asking.

[VP Baltar]

Amished, here is how you know you are on the right track with charlatan: Your top suspect, xRx, has charlatan as number 1 on his scum list but never votes him. Instead he hops onto ABR's Porkchop vote with speed. Now, Porkchop was his number 2 suspect, but let's look at what he says about him:

Porkchop and Scien are both very inactive ;_;

Vi is almost certainly town btw. I have yet to see a Vi post that I haven't viewed as pro-town, and post 297 calls out exactly how I was feeling about Porkchop's "catchup" post.

I like ABR's top three scum in 323 minus Amished. Put VPB in for Amished and I think that's more in line. Porkchop might be in there as well, depending on how the next few pages shake out.

And that's it. Number 2 suspect! Feel free to compare that to how much he calls charlatan scummy and even says:

I support SC's 241 vote of charlatan, who seems like the best lynch candidate at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Because PCE has gotten by so far without doing much of any real effort, and I've learned you don't let that just slip by, otherwise you wind up with either a) a scum who's slipping by unnoticed or b) a townie who is an easy mislynch later.

Better to get rid of it now.

This is a bad reason to lynch someone. Go read Last Man Standing if you want an example of PCE-town being lazy early on and then participating more later.

[VP Baltar]

Here you go.

Looking back though, it did slip my mind that it began over the holidays, so that could be a legitimate factor in him being less active than I had seen him in the past.

[VP Baltar]

Sure.

[VP Baltar]

VPB

ABR is defending

PCE

charlatan because

it was VPB's idea to invite PCE

they were scum together last game. Hees pwotectinw hees baybee.

[VP Baltar]

Well, first, I was just teasing. Relax there killer.

Second, did you read the game I linked? Because the things you are charging PCE with (ask questions and echo other players' opinions) are exactly what he did in that game. Not sure why you are saying it's bullshit. What other meta do you have of him?

Don't expect me to trust you about PCE when I just completed a town game with him when he acted similarly. You may be right, but I don't find the arguments particularly persuasive given my recent experience.

[VP Baltar]

Let me surmise the case on charlatan: he makes bad arguments. He doesn't read the game like everyone else. He changes his mind often. That's IT.

If you can give better reasons than that, go ahead and post them. I'm just not seeing it right now.

If that's your interpretation, cool.

[VP Baltar]

Don't you think that PCE would try and act like in the other game knowing you were in it? You can't laud his play and then turn around and underestimate him like that.

It has nothing to due with underestimating him. He's a good player or I wouldn't have asked him to play here. What I'm saying is that everyone has shitty moments from time to time, especially if they are busy with other stuff.

You're assumption that he's sandbagging it to trick people (me specifically?) seems like quite the leap. At best you could say it's null. Sure if he continued to do it all game, it would definitely become suspicious, but I don't think the way he is doing it is coming across at all fake.

You may hate meta, but I personally do not and find it a useful tool if used correctly.

Additionally, the way people have shifted toward him as the charlatan wagon started to come back around is pretty laughable. xRx's vote in particular is non-sensical when you look at the amount of time he has spent talking about charlatan vs. PCE.

[VP Baltar]

Regardless, I don't think it's fair to bring meta into the equation since porkchop has yet to complete a game as mafia to my knowledge.

And this is fair enough I suppose because I don't care for one sided metas either, but I still don't think what you want to lynch him over outweighs the charlatan arguments.

I know you are interpreting it differently, but I think your read on it is pretty flatly wrong and one-sided.

[VP Baltar]

As a comment to the meta discussion of Chop (lol for VP who brought it up now not caring about one-sided metas very much)

I've never been a huge fan of one-sided metas and have been burnt by them in the past, but when I don't recall ever seeing a PCE scum game on site I don't have as much of a choice. It was simply a point of reference anyhow to say that the specific behavior people are attacking him over is similar to what I saw in Last Man Standing.

@Amished-I'm not entirely opposed to a xRx lynch today. I wasn't enamored with Scien when he was here and Reck's aversion to the charlatan wagon even though he and PCE relatively equal in scumminess in his eyes doesn't sit well with me. I'd prefer charlatan, but if it came down to it I'm perfectly ok with xRx going.

[VP Baltar]

Hey people on the PCE wagon, if charlatan is town who is scum on his wagon? Given that he seems to be on the edge of being lynched for forever, I'm going to assume you think there is a large concentration of scum on his wagon that just can't get it over the edge, so enlighten me.

[VP Baltar]

You?

How trite. Do you think I'm more likely to be scum than charlatan? Who else on the wagon is scum in your eyes?

[VP Baltar]

VPB, why does me voting PCE mean I have to think Char is town?

I assumed you operated under the premise of wanting to lynch scum, Mr. Philosophical. Nice question dodge though.

And, I think out of anyone on the charlatan wagon, you're most likely to be scum. But I actually think the charlatan wagon is town-driven. Which is why scum won't get on the wagon.

Yes, you're right, scum typically avoid getting a mislynch. This quote is also implying that you think the people on the PCE wagon are scummier....so I guess you think that the scum would rather try and bus their buddy (in your eyes) than to get a mislynch on charlatan.

He forgot that he followed VPB to attack me when he says that VPB's points against me are weak.

His whole stance against me is to his own admission, weak. But he keeps his vote on me for another dozen posts, which is ridiculous.

He later claims it to be a pressure vote to get a better read on me. Which makes sense, because he never had a real reason to attack me. But later on, he says I'm his top suspect. Facepalm.

Wow, so you are now claiming credit for my argument that you said was bunk earlier. GJ champ.

[VP Baltar]

And, I think out of anyone on the charlatan wagon, you're most likely to be scum. But I actually think the charlatan wagon is town-driven. Which is why scum won't get on the wagon.

So in your eyes it is more likely that scum are bussing (since you think PCE is scum) than getting a mislynch on charlatan? If it's town driven, I'd think that the scum would be eager to hammer it through and then attack those driving townies tomorrow.

VPB, why does me voting PCE mean I have to think Char is town?

Sorry, I was under the pretense that you were trying to lynch scum. If you think Char is scum, then why would you slow his wagon down by not voting him. Nice question dodge though.

He forgot that he followed VPB to attack me when he says that VPB's points against me are weak.

His whole stance against me is to his own admission, weak. But he keeps his vote on me for another dozen posts, which is ridiculous.

He later claims it to be a pressure vote to get a better read on me. Which makes sense, because he never had a real reason to attack me. But later on, he says I'm his top suspect. Facepalm.

So you steal my point and claim it as your own after you called all my arguments bunk earlier. GJ champ.

[VP Baltar]

F U MS.

[VP Baltar]

The only time I've ever made an argument that both wagons were on scum was when I have been scum.

[VP Baltar]

I think I'll be getting to this game tomorrow guys. I need to read the whole day and I lost most of my MS time today due to the site going down. Sorry for the brief delay in my catch up.

[VP Baltar]

Serial, what do you think about VP at this point? What is the reason you switched off of him D1?

What do you think of me?

I was right about charlatan. I obviously don't have the time to wait an extra month on a mod who refuses to provide a deadline, so I voted him out since Vi-Amished-VP-SC-Zorblag were so damn stubborn about it.

Quick, let me get this out there before people question me about it after I was the one being so fucking stubborn and providing no reasoning yesterday.

He can claim he was right all he likes today, but he jumped on the wagon when he didn't need to (the absense of a deadline gives you asm uch time as you need to make your case, not rushes you into a lynch).

Bingo.

Hey, Reck, why the hell are you so interested in ABR's opinion on what you should do next?

Really has been a lot of words today without a lot being said I feel. I'm inclined toward Reckoner being scum here. He has been dancing around lynches this game. I need to do an iso first though since my V/LA has put me a bit on the outside of this game now.

Also, Hope you feel better soon PCE. (I did chuckle a bit that you were like "I'm so drunnnnnk!" *time warp* "I think I need to see a doctor").

[VP Baltar]

I've considered Reck pretteh suspicious for a while now. I get the feeling he doesn't know who to NK and he's asking me to class players so he can make a more informed NK. I don't like his play Day 1, it was like he was looking for any excuse to jump off the charlatan bandwagon even though charlie was his suspect. A lot more but that's all I can post for now.

Yep, I agree with this. Reck always plays scummy in my eyes, but he was definitely dancing around the charlie and PCE wagons yesterday. Then today he comes out and says both of the leading wagons today are a good idea while asking ABR repeatedly for advice. If he wasn't at L-2 so early in the day that's where my vote would be.

[VP Baltar]

K. I honestly have nothing to defend against, so lynch away. Pretty much baseless attacks here.

I have some stuff I need to bring up, but I'll need some free time to gather the quotes and such. Most likely this afternoon.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, let me show what I mean about Reckoner hanging out around whatever lynch he can get to go through:

What really struck me first yesterday was his switch to Porkchop for no apparent reason other than ABR asking him to do so.

His scumlist before that was:

SCUMMEH:
charlatan
PorkchopExpress
DDD

PRETTEH SCUMMEH:
VP Baltar
Sando

NEUTRAL:
Amished
Ojanen
Albert B Rampage

TOWNEE:
Zorblag
Vi
SC

<3

I questioned him why he would vote PCE (who he actually spent very little time talking about catching up post) and his reasoning was:

Note. My scumlist isn't really in order of scumminess, it's more of a clusterfuck of people who I feel are the same levels of scumminess. So, PCE = charlatan, not the other way around.

More PCE votes plz

Which is a bit meh of an explanation to me. I don't believe everyone in every category of his list is equal in his mind, particularly since he was pushing much harder toward PCE even though he had given more concrete reasons for wanting charlatan lynched.

Now, keep in mind with his equal lynch business it seems odd when he says:

To be completely honest, at the risk of sounding like charlatan's fence-sitting, I only prefer a PCE-lynch like 50%, a charlatan lynch 35%, and a DDD lynch 15%.

I guess they aren't equal...and the main reason is "PCE isn't contributing".

Then in an attempt to understand whatever Reckoner's reasoning for staying on the PCE wagon even though he finds charlatan scummy, I ask him who he thinks could be the scum pushing the charlatan wagon. He says I am, but won't comment on anyone else and says that they are likely both scum being run up....which is about as ridiculous as one can get.

And then, finally, after all of this asinine dialogue ABR says to Reckoner:

Actually Reck, what I meant to ask you in 560 was "What say you we lynch charlatan right here and now?".

And then Reck hammers in his next post. So, yeah, I don't like internal inconsistencies such as "all my scum suspects are equal", "No, wait no they're not", "PCE is more likely to be scum and could be a threat later in the game", "Hammer Charlatan".

Today he comes out and prefers the popular Sando and PCE lynches. He says:

That being said, I'm still liking a PCE lynch, but after reviewing the game, I'm starting to like a Sando lynch even more/equally as much, with DDD coming in right behind the both of them.

I have a question here, Reck, what from your "reviewing" made you like the Sando lynch even more than PCE?

We also get:

Actually, I don't think they're bussing - I think PCE/Sando could either be scum.

which is the same bullshit false dichotomy we got yesterday about PCE and charlatan.

[VP Baltar]

While your normal meta is to look generally scummy Reckoner, what is missing here is me seeing you have any actual desire to find scum instead of push lynches. There is a difference and even if your reasons for finding someone scummy are occasionally bad, you normally have them. I'm not seeing that so much this game.

[VP Baltar]

Hey, ABR, when did you start to find Reckoner scummy? How confident are you that he's scum?

Vi, why put Reckoner at L-1 so early in the day? ( I think I have an idea, but I want to hear your thought process)

[VP Baltar]

Forgot to add:

DDD, when do you plan to actually get involved in this game? Have you found anything scummy to run with yet?

[VP Baltar]

I started the wagon on Rec today that's got him up to L-1, no credit for that? I mean I could've made loud noises and repeated things from yesterday and called it a case, but I think it's fairly obvious that the facts speak for themselves considering how the wagon has come together.

lol, you mean you want credit for this:

Vote: xRECKONERx

Thought it was a good lynch yesterday, given flips still looks like a good lynch today. I do like Vi's arguments about Sando and the tone of Sando's quotes just reads as off to me and that's probably my second choice right now.

That seems horribly vague and even when I looked back at why you thought it was a good lynch yesterday, you appeared to be piggybacking off of Amished. I don't think anyone was actually influenced by

you

to vote Reckoner so much as the wagon was there for the taking and others have been doing actual work on it.

The main point I was making was that you said early in the day that once you found something scummy you were going to "run with it". I'm saying that there is a complete and utter lack of this running taking place. You're saying that your excuse for not pursue your case against Reckoner harder is that it's self-evident...well, I think we both know that there is actually very little in this game that's self-evident or not worth further questioning about. Being laissez faire about everything isn't going to fly with me past Day 1 and I wouldn't feel bad about running you up over it.

This is the third game I'm playing with Reck and I can't make heads or tails of his play. Honestly, it's frustrating me to no end and I'm wondering whether it's worth chickening out on the play and taking a bit more time on this.

Well, this is Reckoner's MO largely, but what sticks out to me is how inconsistent he seems to be internally with his own positions. While I have seen him wagon hop plenty as town, I can usually at least follow his thought process for his actions on a general level (ie, WHYOHWHY?), but I'm having a harder time doing that this game.

And SC asks where ABR is, which reminds me:

Hey, ABR, when did you start to find Reckoner scummy? How confident are you that he's scum?

go ahead and answer those.

Reck, there has been a fair amount of tension surrounding me, but a lack of votes. I'm not sure what to make of it really. I don't really see how not hammering makes me a townie though...

Hyper-sensitivity to non-existant pressure alert!

VP Baltar, is there nothing to respond to?

You miss me? I wasn't away

that

long.

I've asked Albert...without response.

Seems like it's starting to become a common occurance.

VP made a case and joined directly after I suggested it

Not quite true. I have not voted Reckoner yet due to the speed that his wagon grew (though had that not happened I probably would have). Also, he did pique my interest on day one. As far as I can tell, however, I was the only person who presented a full case on him today. Oj did make a few points though.

Albert's blatant OMGUS of SC after he's been calling for a hammer on Reckoner for the last few pages doesn't make any sense to me. I have spent some time thinking about ABR and his repeated calls for the hammer after he made such a show about how careful the town has to be today. I basically chalked it up as, if he were town, he must be REALLY confident that Reckoner is scum. No problems there necessarily, but to now switch to SC for idiotic reasoning makes me think that he wasn't sure about Reckoner at all, thus making his calling for the hammer and the need to be careful even more ridiculous.

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

[VP Baltar]

This is going to be fun.

Maybe if you answered questions instead of being snarky, people wouldn't want to lynch you.

[VP Baltar]

Or we should lynch. No problem.

[VP Baltar]

I am sure about RECKONER. I can't lynch RECKONER if SC is going to be voting me. So I'm voting SC. Makes sense.

No, actually.


Also,

Hey, ABR, when did you start to find Reckoner scummy?

How confident are you that he's scum?

[VP Baltar]

VPB, you couldn't lynch me if Yosarian himself was on your scumteam. Try harder. Please, try harder.

I mean, maybe DDD will come over. Maybe Sando will. But let's be honest here, Vi is too smart to think I'm scum this far into the game. Zorblag will likely not follow you, and neither will Ojanen. I doubt even RECK would vote for me because that would prove that everything he said up until now was rubbish.

So what have you, really. Consider your options here. And am I really scum? Or just a dissident? Think carefully.

Well, given that your stances have shifted more than the sands of the Mojave for little to no apparent reason, I don't think it's a great leap in logic to see you as scum here.

Now, perhaps this pomp and swagger act works quite effectively in your newbie games, but it's quite tired, ineffective and dull on a whole if you ask me.

Also,

Hey, ABR, when did you start to find Reckoner scummy?

[VP Baltar]

Hey, ABR, when did you start to find Reckoner scummy?

[VP Baltar]

@sando-I don't think many people are seriously considering you for a lynch at this point, which is what I mean by non-existent pressure. I think Vi would be up for your lynch and possibly hito. Other than that, there has been some skirting about but nothing that seems very serious to me.

@Oj-To me, your post basically translates to: "I don't know what to do right now, nor do I have any sense of direction for the future"...which doesn't exactly give me the warm and fuzzies. I realize you're essentially admitting this, but what is the point in posting that if it's all you have to say?

[VP Baltar]

This might sound weak but I'm not a fan of his turn of phrase either here, btw, he has in effect already decided Reck is scum. Yet needs to do an iso for justification ie looking good. No way to land on anyone else if looking at one person only.

Except you skip the whole part where I wasn't fond of Reckoner on Day 1. Also your argument that there is a "lack of initiative" in my targets is funny considering I'm the only person who made a case on Reckoner today and yesterday I spent a very good portion of the day outlining my reasons on charlatan.

I don't understand what point you are trying to convey in the quotes you chose. I don't understand where there is a "lack of initiative" in them, but I suppose it sounds good when you have nothing else.

Reck is a juicy easy target in this game if he's town.

Translation: "I still have a foot in both camps, but the Reckoner wagon seems to have become less popular now."

And I think his Reck case is filled with inaccuracies. And I just feel baaaad about him.

How vague.

And the reason I didn't address your points earlier is because they're highly illogical and without good foundation, but let's look at them anyhow if you'd like.

I don't get what is so unbearably scummy about pushing the PCE wagon instead of the charlatan-town's wagon, definitely wasn't "dancing around any lynch he could get" since joining charlatan tunnelers was about as easy as it could have gotten in the first place and he switched when any other lynch than charlatan's seemed impossible anyway.

So, you don't see any scummy motivation to support both of the leading wagons for very little reason and yet be unexplainably hesitant to join the eventual mislynch of someone who is apparently your top target? In the words of Mr. Clergyman, that is rubbish.

I think VP's case has other mischaracterizations too, btw, like describing the PCE vote as a switch, I don't think answering "you are" to VP's question of who is scum and not elaborating on others is a scumtell when actually in the rundown list VP also quoted he had indeed always had the others as town or neutral.

I don't even understand what you are really saying. I think I need you to rephrase this. Mostly this reads to me as you saying, "VPs points were XYZ and those are mischaracterizations", but there is no real explanation as to WHY you feel that way.

I also think the Albert case is very weak on scum motivation front, more so than the Reck one, but need to iso him, not feeling up to date. (yay another waffle for Serial.)

More vague non-sense. And again, how you don't see scum motivation for ABR changing his positions left and right with no explanation as wagons shift is beyond me. The fact that ABR won't answer when he actually started to find Reckoner scummy (after he has buddied him all game mind you) should be a giant red flashing arrow of scum motivation if you're actually reading the game.

[VP Baltar]

I find there is a "lack of initiative" in your vote ABR.

[VP Baltar]

I know that's a logical fallacy, but it is my belief that a player as experienced as ABR wouldn't be flopping around like so.

What do you think is the likelihood that he would play to this exact assumption?

[VP Baltar]

Sando, I'm referring to her tacking on the "if he's town" part at the end of that line. If she actually thinks he's an easy target, then I expect her to be taking a definitive stance, ie that Reckoner is town. However, she adds on her little caveat just in case the Reckoner wagon comes back around and she needs to join. ("yes, I thought he was an easy target, but only if he's town. I don't think he's town anymore" or something of that nature).

As far as the wagon being less popular, I think the fact that it has diminished from L-1 to L-3 shows that it's less popular at the moment or at least that people are trying to look elsewhere before settling on that as being the lynch for the day.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar: How much experience do you have with ABR?

I don't have any completed games with him personally beyond Quick and Dirty. While I acknowledge his meta, there comes a point when the BS stops being a cute act and comes across as a deliberate attempt to not participate. I don't think I should have to repeatedly ask a simple question like "when did you first start to find reckoner scummy?" and still never receive an answer, yet be expected by his meta defenders (Oj, troll, et al) to take it as ol' lovable ABR.

I'm interested to hear Troll's take on it.

[VP Baltar]

I'll let you answer Vi's questions before I respond Reck.


hito, where are you?

[VP Baltar]

Part of my whole point was that you (probably others too, won't check now) badgered Reck D1 mostly because charlatan was so OMG scum and Reck went on PCE wagon despite thinking charlatan is scum. And the charlatan wagon was all OMG town and not going through because of scum resistance. Reck hammers when charlatan lynch is inevitable, and charlie flips town.

Dancing around the wagon even though he claimed to find him scummy and then only hammering after ABR tells him to. Yes, still scummy. What is your issue again?

And you go for Reck first thing D2 without intending to look at others because Reck's been "dancing around lynches".

Where did I say I had no intention to look at others? Oh, that's right YOU'RE USING EMPTY RHETORIC TO PAD YOUR CASE.

As for you being the only person having made a formal case on Reck today, well how does that make a squat difference in motivation and reactivity when DDD and Zorblag had voted him, Serial had put him up to lynch candidates and I had just made my pretteh scummeh points against him.

You're totally right, there's no difference between explaining your reasons for voting someone to make yourself transparent and saying WAGON GOGOGOGO.

You're essentially saying that even though I was suspicious of Reck day 1 and have actual reasons (which I have clearly outlined) for voting him today, I am likely scum because I didn't quick vote him like DDD, Zorblag and SC. I think you should actually look up the definition of reactive in your free time.

Ooh, exciting, you think I'm scum? I kinda like your knee-jerk.

Again, saying I said things which I did not. I did not call you scum, but I think you fencesitting on the Reck issue is scummy. You're beyond suspicion?

However it's good to see you finally took a stance on it:

I'm expecting him to be town.

At least calling you out got you to make yourself accountable.

All of the core group of long time voters turn to Reck. Could be bussing, could be blah blah

I don't disagree with you about this point actually and it does bother me to some degree. I have been tossing over in my head who out of that group could be scum. Troll sticks out for his lurking today, but that's nothing that I take to be all that scummy. SC's apparent interest in your case on me strikes me as strange because I think it's laughably bad, but again that is not something I am confident in saying he's scum over. I still feel pretty certain that Vi is town. I was correct in my town read on Amished (since he wanted xRx dead hardcore as well).

All in all, however, even the people on the charlatan wagon that I think have the potential to be scum don't read as scummier than Reck or ABR. Not even by a long shot.

Just look at the thread.
I don't think anyone except me or Sando has been really against a Reck lynch. hito, Albert, VP all seem perfectly fine to make the lynch happen again and that's already L-0.

I agree, look at the thread. People have backed off of Reck and are looking elsewhere. You really want to argue that's not happening? That doesn't make him less scummy inherently, but it does make the wagon less popular in the sense that it's not in immediate threat of going through. So...you're still wrong.

--preview edit---

@VPB

Late Day 1.

Thank you. It's not so hard to be reasonable, now is it? I'll address this tomorrow since I'm pretty tired right now.

[VP Baltar]

Re: VPB. I'm not liking how he seems to be throwing suspicion at anyone who disagrees with him or finds him scummy.

*sigh* Where was this happening at exactly?

Or maybe that's just the vibe I'm getting from him and it doesn't match reality... but he seems to be versus ABR, because ABR is calling him scummy

Where in any of my cases did I say anything relating to what ABR thought of me? I think he's been acting scummy since Day 1 in case you aren't reading the game.

he seems to be calling Ojanen scum

No, I didn't call her scum at all. I pointed out a few scummy things she has said, but never stated any definitive conclusion. Feel free to actually quote things to support your points.

Irony?

Really? How so?

Perhaps you were referring to this:

VPB's reactionary playstyle is pissing me off and I'm strongly considering joining that wagon.

Irony?

In the meantime, Alberty, what's with the Vi townread?

What is your read on Vi? what about ABR's bothers you? Does my town read on her bother you?

Same could be argued for VPB, really.

No, not really at all. At least someone else sees how arbitrary your play is here.

Also, I need you to be more specific about your suspicion of Reckoner in "late Day 1". Point me to a specific post or time period that you started to find him suspicious, preferably with some sort of explanation why.

[VP Baltar]

When did you attack me? When did charlatan attack me? When did Scien attack me? When did ABR attack me before I attacked him?

Also, feel free to actually respond to my post proper and supply the quotes I'm asking for.

[VP Baltar]

Acting scummy in a single instance DNE scum, however, I don't mind pointing out.

Apart from a single quote about Oj who else are you talking about when you say:

you're only attacking those who have some suspicion of you.

[VP Baltar]

WHAT PLAYERS!

[VP Baltar]

I was suspicious of ABR (and have continually been) before he made any sort of remarks about me. I also voted him today before he said anything about me and then he suddenly claimed I was scum.

Anything else?

[VP Baltar]

I actually think I've made my stances fairly clear about most of the players in this game actually. I could see someone saying I haven't taken a stance on Sando or DDD yet, but that's because I haven't decided either way on them yet (though after my discussion with DDD earlier today I'm leaning town on him).

Vi is town. You're probably scum. hito just replaced and I need some time with him. Troll and SC are townish with mild misgivings here and there.

How am I "the most vocal" about Oj? I don't think I've really attacked her hardly at all and she's not even someone I think absolutely needs to be lynched today. You're coming to that conclusion based on a single comment about her not taking a stance on you?

I still want you to find those quotes for me Reck.

[VP Baltar]

Hey look, more question dodging. What a surprise.

[VP Baltar]

I need you [ABR] to be more specific about your suspicion of Reckoner in "late Day 1". Point me to a specific post or time period that you started to find him suspicious, preferably with some sort of explanation why.

[VP Baltar]

@Vi-It'll be good to have you back. Someone else talking will give me time to recover from having to repeatedly smash my face into the wall.

@ABR- Let's pretend for a second we're not all super geniuses like you. Slowly and with words (even if you claim to be repeating yourself) answer my request for clarification on what specifically you find scummy about Reckoner and when that arose on Day 1.

[VP Baltar]

Hey ABR, what are your thoughts on hitogoroshi?

Oj, you alive out there?

Having said all that, I saw a bit in Ojanen's case that was disturbingly hitting home. Zorblag and I thought Amished was a mason warning us off voting VP on D1, which is what all our crappy secretive code structure was and the double take from me on D1. I imagine the scum were trying to kill masons, so either someone else noticed it or troll is looking scummy. Or our fail secret talk gave it away.

Plus at the moment my wagon has not a huge amount of support, and hito is voting without Albert meta, I think.

What exactly is the point of the message you're trying to convey here?

[VP Baltar]

If you had to choose between him or Reckoner to lynch today, who would it be?

[VP Baltar]

As people no doubt could have deduced by now, I was Vi's mason partner in the original setup and part of my play this game was indeed designed to suss out ABR's alignment. In the Quick and Dirty game almost no one seriously pushed on him and he was able to escape through massive lurking. By engaging him in a slightly antagonistic way, I hoped to avoid this and I think I've at least succeeded in that.

I think Vi and I have arrived at somewhat different conclusions based on these interactions, but there is no doubt that I had moments of genuine annoyance in there as well and probably have a bit of a biased.

In terms of today, I think it's time we start talking seriously about a lynch. I think we've had a lot of good discussion today, but people are participating increasingly less (or simply repeating themselves), so it is probably time to lynch and move on.

IMO, xRECKONERx is still a fabulous lynch today. He hasn't acted any less scummy and has conveniently slipped into the background since attention turned away from him. In addition to that, almost everyone has taken a stance on him (eventually) so there is ample info available. The only reason people seem to not like a Reck lynch is because he is perceived as an easy target or is too scummy to be scum, which is not something I generally like to follow. I've played with Reckoner a lot as town and on a gut level I feel his play here is different (though he does always act scummy).

Sando is another lynch that may not be bad. I've been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt this game since I was wrong about him in the last game, but I cannot make heads or tails of his play this game. When he's not lurking, he seems to be doing his best to not comment on any of the main events that are taking place. His recent obsession with Vi, who couldn't be acting more town, is particularly illogical.

I personally would still support an ABR lynch today, but I'm not going to beat that dead horse anymore.

Any lynch beyond that is probably going to take a damn fine case from someone else to convince me.

Unvote, Vote: xRECKONERx

---

@Oj - I hope you don't think you're actually being convincing with your timeline considering you're just highlighting the parts of your quotes you think show you taking a stance while you're conveniently leaving out the caveats you were repeatedly slipping in there in case you needed to change your mind. Let's turn to the non-underlined portions!

It's a totally flickering read.

Reck is a juicy easy target in this game

if he's town.

You were repeatedly tacking on outs for yourself if you needed to, so I don't know who you're trying to fool at this point by highlighting portions of your quotes that better suit your argument.

[VP Baltar]

VP, what do you think about lynching me?

As I said before, I don't feel that I've come to a definitive conclusion on you. I think your attacks on me, both yesterday and today, have been pretty bad and poorly constructed, but that could easily be coming from you being busy in RL/having a mild biased toward attacking me when we are in games together. On those grounds, I don't think lynching you is something I'm all that interested in today.

If you haven't already outlined these recently, what are your thoughts on SC and Sando?

[VP Baltar]

Why do you think I have a mild bias toward attacking you btw?

Eh, just a vibe mostly. I know I have a naturally scummy playstyle at times, so I think you just pick up on that and run with it. Of course, it's also interesting to note that we've never been the same alignment...so perhaps that's the cause of us disagreeing often. *shrug*

[VP Baltar]

I would like to hear about my former Mason partner's goal for the game, since I talked about mine.

I didn't really have a second step beyond doing what it takes to ascertain his alignment if that's what you're asking. That's really the only plan I ever have as town.

I do have to say that I don't know what to think about his strong support of the Reck wagon. It seems genuine enough, so that means he's either town or I'm on the wrong track.

[VP Baltar]

And rec continues to try and hurt the town by securing posthumous town lynches.

Why does this sound like you think he'll flip town?

[VP Baltar]

If reck flips scum, then I don't understand how what he said would get town lynched in subsequent days. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Unvote

I need to think about some things for a bit and I want to relook at someone.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, I understand what you meant. It doesn't make sense.

[VP Baltar]

Because the only way people will listen to what Reck said there (lynch DDD and VPB tomorrow) is if he flips town. No town in their right mind is going to follow the lynch preferences of a dead scum.

[VP Baltar]

Unless I am reading it incorrectly, but I'll wait for clarification.

[VP Baltar]

@VP Baltar: I thought your goal was to learn [someone other than ABR]'s alignment? Or are you working on that now?

Oh sure, that is certainly something that I have looked at as well. Are you looking at going that way today? It doesn't appear that way from your last post necessarily.

I would ask you (since I like having coded conversations with you right in front of everyone else ) how certain are you feeling about that person's alignment? I know I've been torn on it. Felt better day 1, but today is pretty blah.

[VP Baltar]

Defeatist scum is defeatist scum. Hammer time.

Vote: xRECKONERx

Zero coordination with VP now, obv not buddies.

lol, what? Where is this coming from?

[VP Baltar]

No offense, but glad Oj died. Clears up that suspicion nicely. I'm most interested in a Sando, ABR or SC lynch today.

Vi and DDD town reads have only been further strengthened pending a reread to make myself completely confident.

Troll looks more town than anything. I don't think a scum buddy would leave a vote on like that if he couldn't keep up with the thread.

That leaves hito more in a neutral category. Gut on it says that he's not scum though. Reck wouldn't have been so preferential of the PCE lynch Day 1 if they were scum buddies when the very viable charlatan wagon was there.

[VP Baltar]

lol.

ITT, scum tries to claim credit for things he had little to nothing to do with. At least you're a hero in your own mind.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar: If ABR is scum, then why aren't you voting him?

Been there done that?

No, but seriously, as much as I want to vote him, logically speaking it does seem that Sando and/or Serial have a higher probability of being scum due to their actions around the Reckoner wagon. Serial had a quick vote/unvote in there and tried to discredit it while Sando made his best effort to not speak to the issue at all. Doesn't mean it's not still fun to mess with ABR.

I'm taking it by your last post that your reads are similar to mine. Reck's flip improved your thoughts of the player who shall not be named?

Vote:Sando

post or die scumbaggio.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry missed the V/LA note. When he gets back.

wait what

Look at his iso between Jan. 28 and Jan. 31 when the wagon ballooned. He votes and then once it gets going, he mostly tries to discredit people's support of it (namely mine, ABR's and Oj's).

I also don't like that he tries to take credit for the Reckoner wagon in the first place when it was started by DDD and Troll:

I started the wagon to see what sort of gut support there was for a Reck wagon.

No you didn't.

Turns out there's absolutely plenty. This is not necessarily a good sign. It either means he's obv scum and me calling for a wagon awakened a bit of gut in people, or it means that he's a good mislynch and the opportunists have popped on board.

As much as I was an instigator, as far as I'm aware I've given no reasons for anyone to join the wagon, so it's not like I've pushed it other than give people a license to join it. VP made a case and joined directly after I suggested it and Albert now seems very keen to lynch, both somewhat out of nowhere.

So you see what I mean? After it gained maximum traction, he's ready to discredit in any way possible.

Saying ABR's reasons were out of nowhere is semi-reasonable, but mine clearly were not.

[VP Baltar]

Wow, more ad homs. What a surprise. Perhaps the mod should enforce the rules.

VPB is terrible at this game. He cannot fathom a bus where a scum planned bus was almost inevitable considering how yesterday went.

That's exactly what I'm saying you did if you're scum. Sorry I didn't outline it step by step for you so you could comprehend it. I thought I made it clear when I pointed out your BS 'I found reck scummy sometime late day 1' business.

[VP Baltar]

Troll, I appreciate what you're saying about hito around the Reck wagon initially and I do agree with you to some extent, but my biggest hang up with him is that Reck was all about lynching PCE on Day 1. He placed his vote there early after replacing and was happy to cruise on it for as long as possible even after I pointed out his inconsistencies with his own list.

Why would a scum be so committed to bussing their partner on Day 1 when he could have gotten onto the charlatan lynch very easily?

My guess is that both of the day one wagons were on town and the scum were trying to split where they landed so as to avoid vote count analysis.

[VP Baltar]

You didn't force him to do anything. Here's the post:

Unvote, vote porkchopexpress

PRETTEH SCUMMEH

Who's weth meh?

OOOOH ME ME ME

Vote: Porkchop

Wagon, hooooo!

He's quite willing.

[VP Baltar]

I looked at the context. I don't agree with your interpretation.

Furthermore, your post wasn't even directed toward him, so he wouldn't have felt any sort of pressure to vote that way at that time. He could have easily voted on the more popular charlatan wagon without much trouble.

[VP Baltar]

VPB, your vote isn't Reck-wagon motivated, what is motivating it other than to force someone who is stated as VLA to post?

It is actually. I feel looking back that you weren't commenting much on Reck, which is a viable scum strategy. That being said, I do think Serial may be a better case to pursue and a cursory glance at your case (short on time atm) has me a agreeing with some of your points, particularly the Reck flip and his weird play this game in relation to his meta.

Unvote, Vote: SerialClergyman

Catching up with a few other things in a few hours when I have some more time.

[VP Baltar]

And VPB, yeah, I reread and saw where you said the Reck thing was scummy. You the same as Vi, or think the derail was more the scummy move?

It's mostly just your avoidance of Reck that bothers me. You really didn't have a whole lot to say about him. I think Vi's 3rd question above is the most important, though you've somewhat answered it in the sense that you've said who you find most scummy.

I do think VP is scummy (remember him writing a case against Reck but not voting?)

You mean when he was at L-2 and hito hadn't even finished catching up yet? Seems like the best time to be rushing a wagon.

[VP Baltar]

I think VPB raises good points about PCE and that's why Hito is a bit lower on my list than some. If I'm being brutally honest I don't have a lot of respect for Rec's play so I just don't seeing bussing when another wagon was wide open as his first instinct.

I agree with this, other than I wouldn't say I disrespect his game. Reck's style is to play a very short game though, so I don't see bussing on Day 1 as a tool that he would really use.

I plan to look specifically at some more Reck scum meta sometime today (hopefully) and see if he has ever bussed on Day 1.

[VP Baltar]

VPB, how did the self-vote clear up your confusion?

Because it was obvious that Reckoner tried to self-hammer and fail. I had no questions after that.

Dot. Dot. Dot.

You should know the ongoing he's referencing.



At the risk of having to eat my words, a scum metaing of Reckoner has given some added credence to ABR's read on hitogoroshi for me.

While Reckoner doesn't have a lot of scum games in his wiki (only 4), Newbie 790 and Perfectionist Mafia seem relevant.

In the newbie game Reckoner bussed his partner ric somewhat hard on Day 2. I only did a skim, but it didn't seem like there was a cop investigation or anything that would force him to do that.

Perfectionist Mafia is disturbingly similar to this game if Reck was trying to bus PCE on Day 1. In that game he replaced Day 1 and put two of his three scumbuddies as his top scum reads on his reread. He then proceeded to get on scum-Bloodcovenant's lynch fairly early and hung around without much resistance as his buddy was lynched Day 1.

While I still don't think that ABR "forced" Reckoner to do anything, this meta of him does show some propensity to bus his buddies for no reason whatsoever.

I still think DDD is town, but I could see a hito + SC scum pair remaining.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: hitogoroshi

Meta double take.

DDD, did you look at Reck's scum meta that I provided? I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

[VP Baltar]

And the film always ends with the arch-rival assassins teaming up to kill the even greater threat.

I agree with ABR.

[VP Baltar]

It's Reck's meta hito. I put up a detailed post about it.

[VP Baltar]

VP: So you're saying you're voting me because you're convinced Reck's early vote could have only been a bus? I can see your meta argument arguing that it could have possibly been a bus, but it kinda tees me off that you're putting me at L-1 for what looks like nothing more than the idea that it's impossible for Reck not to bus d1 - and that argument was apparently enough to get you to get over your two big scum reads/preferred lynches of SC/ABR and vote with the pair of them.

Well, it's not just that it

could

be a bus from Reck, but from what meta he has as scum where he doesn't get lynched day one he seems to have a strong proclivity toward bussing.

I don't like how flippant SC is being about the points Sando is making.

I'm also interested where hito is going with his theory.


Vi, I'd like your thoughts on some of this.

Also, SC and ABR are certainly not off my scum list or anything like that. I still don't like SC in this scenario and if you're not scum, then I'd say with almost certainty that he is.

[VP Baltar]

This put Albert's scumminess out the window, because I don't think he'd bus like that and the fire came back into him.

Why do you think he wouldn't do that? It was like one of the first things he posted that day, wasn't it?

[VP Baltar]

@ hito - given Reck's flip and the meta I did, I'm confident that at least one of you are his buddies. Vi and DDD are almost certainly town to me. Troll seems townish. ABR is weird, but leaning town at the moment. Sando could be scum, but he's not a priority at the moment.

[VP Baltar]

I drive a toyota corolla! It's a 94 with over 200 000km on it. It still runs pretty well, but the radio doesn't work and one of the door handles is broken.

[VP Baltar]

I live in the Caribbean. I'm considering going to the beach this weekend.

(hito I'll read your business later since it's ginormous and I'm p tired atm)

[VP Baltar]

Cheers.

[VP Baltar]

ok, caught up. I've read hito's epistle and I have to say that any theory ending in "I think ABR and VP could be scumbuddies"is pretty ludicrous.

I still think one of them needs to go today.

SC, I really want you to start speaking in definitive terms now that you've had time to do your "thinking". Who are your number one and two picks to be lynched today?

[VP Baltar]

I'm saying that the most logical and likely interpretation of today's events is that both SC and I are town and scum are trying to get a win by mislynching one and calling that as evidence for the mislynch of the other. Your 'one of {SC/Hito} is scum' posts have, whether a conscious scum ploy or a townie thought, contributed to this narrative.

I honestly feel that this is not the most logical conclusion. Whether you see it or not, I can see a semi-logical explanation for ABR's switch in stance. What I don't think is logical is you coming to the conclusion that SC is town even if you are. You're either suffering from major confirmation bias here against ABR or you're scum with SC. I don't like that both of you have called each other scum today and are suddenly arriving at the conclusion that you're both town for what appears to be no reason more than it has been proposed that one of you should be the lynch today. It's semi-ridiculous.

Do you still think that at least one of us is almost certainly scum?

What would be flipping town make you think about SC?

What would SC flipping town make you think about me?

Yes, I still think one of you is scum. Your reason for saying ABR is scum does not compute. Him rapidly changing his mind seems to be par for the course, so I don't think that really says much of anything, nor do I think he'd be so sloppy if he was scum.

In terms of either of you flipping town, let me put it this way: Vi and DDD are pretty much confirmed town to me based on their play this game. Troll too does not seem as likely to be scum. ABR, as much as I have been reluctant about it, does appear to be honest in his accusations. At this point he's the lowest on my potential scum list for now. Sando is off on his own tanget most of this game, but I haven't picked up many scummy vibes from him. He's on my potential list only by process of elimination. That leaves you and SC standing all alone. Reck's scum meta shows a very strong bias toward bussing his partners. That's a major point against you. SC seemed to do everything in his power to stop the Reck wagon while verbally saying that he found him scummy. That's a major point against him. I don't know any other way to put it than pretty much all of the evidence points to at least one of you guys being buddies with him.

I think there's a fair bit of evidence that this is a situation with a mislynch wagon on each townie.

There really isn't. The main piece of evidence you are presenting is that ABR changed his mind about SC. So what? Did you actually stop to think about what may have caused that? Could it have been the meta I provided and me pointing out that DDD was trying to lynch Reck since early in Day 1? Does that make sense why he would reevaluate his scum list?

I want you to seriously consider this if you're town. If you think SC is town just because ABR flipped his opinion of him, then it might be time to check your facts again. At this point if SC flips scum, you are going to get lynched very quickly and I don't want that if you're town.

As far as if either of you flipped town, of course I would have to reevaluate my position and look at everything again. That's lylo and all bets are off in lylo. As of right now though, it's going to take more compelling evidence than ABR changing his mind to get me to disregard everything else pointing to you two.

[VP Baltar]

So my first impulse - as per my previous post - is to stop, derail, reverse.

I'm all about exploring options that make sense, but I think we both know that sometimes your derails are unnecessary and have stopped wagons on scum. I'd like to hear who you think the scum are if not these two.

Druglord Baltar: Could you clearly outline why you think hito is scum, and how confident you are that hito is scum?

It's largely based on Reck's meta, as I said. If you want to add to that, I don't get townie scramble from his post, I see scummy scramble. The mechanism seems pretty contrived to me and I don't like how he's clearing Serial because of ABR.

Now, how confident am I that he's scum? Percentage wise, maybe like 60%. I feel better about Serial lynch at this point and judging after that flip. If serial does flip scum, then I think it is

very

probable that hito is his buddy and they've been painted into a corner by town reads.

[VP Baltar]

How am I using 'THE MECHANISM' (da da duuuuuuuh)? I just said that if the game goes to lylo all bets are off and everything needs to be reevaluated.

Also, I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying when I mention DDD. ABR started the day thinking that DDD and yourself were scum because you had to have bussed Reck. I pointed out that DDD had been trying to lynch Reck since Day 1, not just day two when it would have been convenient to bus. Therefore, he would have had to reevaluate who he thought the scum pair was. With him out of the picture, suddenly waffle face SC looks much more logical as a potential partner to you. Alles klar?

Also, what do you think about the several other reasonless flip-flops ABR has pulled in this thread? This is why I'm saying it's par for the course. He's gone back and forth on myself and DDD more than once without a lot of reason. Even on Reck he was not stating his thought process in thread. It's annoying, trust me I know, but it doesn't necessarily mean scum if you can find a reasonable explanation for him doing it.

[VP Baltar]

Do you still believe this? If not, then what would be your interpretation? I don't like that multiple people are basicially saying, "With an SC or hito townflip, my reads tomorrow will be a mystery."

Yes I still believe there is very likely scum between the two of you. Why the hell do you keep asking me this question and expect a different answer? And why should I be worried at this time what my reads will be tomorrow when we haven't even seen an alignment flip yet? You're really starting to annoy me with these useless questions. A town flip is always a cause for reevaluation...I don't see how this is confusing for you or somehow a change in stances from me.

But I'm going to give an answer, because an answer is important. And my answer is VP. Partner is beyond me. I've been getting town reads on Albert and Zorblag and scum read on Vi but I think that's just because I've been disagreeing with Vi.

Oh haaaaaay, I'm two scum in one man. That's pretty sweet. It's quite funny how you never get tired of calling me scum but never have the balls or the case to actually push it. But it's cool, I'm the gift that keeps on giving.

But VP got hit pretty hard by Ojanen's case on D2. We already know that the scum are killing those who are likely to cause problems, as evidenced by Amished's death. Sando has been chastising me for not using NK analysis and I've been giving excuses rather than JUST DOING IT. Ojanen didn't look obviously like a mason to me. And if she didn't look like a mason, then the reason she'd be the kill would be some WIFOM reason (rarely happens) or respect of her ability (possible, but would be limited to a significantly smaller group including VP) or because she was onto something (VP.)

I was "hit pretty hard by Ojanen's case"? News to me. As far as I could see, it looked like a pile of garbage and she was playing horribly. Now, you were definitely standing in the shadows going 'yeah, yeah, yeah', but again there was no real case to push. If I was as scummy as you're trying to portray in this quote, then I'd be dead. Also, appealing to WIFOM over Oj's death after Sando calls you out for not doing it certainly doesn't seem convenient.

VP's dancing around Reck is worth looking at. He didn't vote as the wagon grew, but did post a case.

heh. Remember when you brought this point up already and it was already answered and you didn't follow up because you know you were wrong....you should probably go back and reread that section. Additionally, you're saying that

I

danced around the Reck wagon. That's pretty rich. "Wagon on Reck gogogogo." "Ok, votevotevotevote." "JK, guyz, he's town. Seriously though, stop voting him!"

He was then able to participate in the conversation about toyota corollas but unable to respond to the gamechanging events that were happening, and didn't unvote despite it being a dicey situation.

It's a damn fine motorcar.

Well, if hito && SC are not scum, it would most likely be someone who doesn't want the hito/SC wagons derailed. That would be you/Trollblag/ABR.

Sense enough?

Not really. Sando and DDD aren't on this list for what reason?

I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. Please explain.

This is the first time in a long while that I've heard of someone being painted scum because of someone else's meta. Seriously?

Seriously. For all of his stupendous scumminess, Reckoner seems to me to have a limited bag of tricks at this point in his mafia career. I see no reason to believe that he wouldn't play to his scum meta here. It's not damning evidence of course, but logically I think it does fit with his play D1 and why he would vote PCE over charlatan even though he talked about the latter about 10 times as much in his catch up post.

[VP Baltar]

when hito blows everyone's minds

This didn't happen as far as I can tell. The only people who seem to be putting stock in it are you two and now Vi, who--bless her heart--is overly susceptible to distrusting obvious facts.

Through mosto f D2 you say that Reck is scummy, but you then jumped on Albert's wagon without that seemingly affecting your read of Reck. I can't make sense of a lot of that with you as town.

My guess is that's because you're scum. You seriously don't see how I could attack ABR without that affecting my read on Reck? They very much looked like scumbuddies to me on Day 2 considering all of their buddying on Day 1. You don't remember me having it out with ABR over WHEN he started to suspect Reckoner? Yeah, I was trying to point out a connection between them.

And yes, I switched my mind on Reck once. I said we should vote him, then I said we shouldn't primarily because of the reaction to that original call for votes. With you, I count a case without a vote, then a vote on oneo f his biggest attackers, then a vote on him, then an unvote, then a vote on him again.

And throughout everything I was consistently attacking him. Never did I say I thought Reck could be town. Slowing down a wagon and pursuing alternate avenues of suspicion does not translate to not finding him scummy. It's called generating information. You also ignore the fact that I was suspicious of him from day 1, so I don't know what to tell you.

Also, if I'm your only scum read, why are you not voting me?

[VP Baltar]

This is a key point. Look at the huge bunch of smiling, nodding faces after your case on me. Have you EVER had that sort of a reaction to a case on scum?

el oh mfing el

I started the wagon [but not really] to see what sort of gut support there was for a Reck wagon. Turns out there's absolutely plenty. This is not necessarily a good sign. It either means he's obv scum and me calling for a wagon awakened a bit of gut in people, or it means that he's a good mislynch and the opportunists have popped on board.

Also, I shouldn't have to point out that you're not voting your top (and apparently only) scum read.

Unvote, Vote: SerialClergyman

[VP Baltar]

You're more likely to be scum.

[VP Baltar]

So your case on hitogoroshi is that xRx is extremely predictable, essentially.

Yes, not the greatest I know, but Reck's consistency as scum certainly unsettled me.

HOWEVER.....

I've been isoing hito to look at things more from his side in relation to the Reckoner wagon, and I came across this little gem:

Notice what happened here. Reckoner was at L-1, and then suddenly these two slipped off of the wagon (and let's be honest, THEY were specifically what made the Reck wagon seem less popular and possible today.) They did it by 'gunning' for each other, but now ABR seems to have forgotten SC entirely and SC has been doing his damndest to suck any energy from the ABR wagon while he's sitting on it.

This is actually kind of an interesting point, but we seem to be seeing a different story from hito today with regards to these two (ie, ABR is the grand schemer trying to get SC).

It's possible he forgot about this; I know I did. hito, thoughts on SC-ABR scumpair?


Now, I will say on the other (third?) hand that hito did sort of play the "Reck's big time scum" card quite awhile yesterday without voting. It gives me a bit of pause, but it is plausible that it came from town.

Hito, can I get your updated thoughts on Sando?

Now if someone could kindly explain what "obvious facts" I'm missing, it would be reasonably helpful.

When I said this, I was mostly referring to...well....pretty much everything SC has said in the past two game days. His play around the Reckoner wagon reeks of scum and today he seems more than a touch lost, which is exactly what happens to me as scum when I'm in a game and there is a large set of players calling each other town.

[VP Baltar]

meta /wrists


'member?

[VP Baltar]

How do you get lost = scum? The whole purpose of scum is that they ahve the information that the majority doesn't. That doesn't equal lost...

What? That doesn't even make sense. How does knowing who your scum buddy is help you fake your scumhunting unless you're bussing? I think all you'd have to do is think back to my play in /invitational 4 to see what scum at a loss looks like. It's a bitch when half the town starts agreeing they they are town and you're forced to try and convince them they aren't. I stand by my statement, you are scum at a loss for direction.

While this could be a high level bus, I severely doubt it, and I think Albert's quick switch to SC-is-scum is probably proof enough they aren't scumbuddies.

I don't see how that switch makes you believe they couldn't be scum buddies. I fully see ABR as the type of player to bus his buddies at the first sign of trouble.

So where the hell am I getting my town read? I don't know, and perhaps we should just ignore it. Maybe it's because I'm more inclined to look for scum among those who expressed a 'lynch both' sentiment prior to 998 and are now expressing a 'lynch one, then everything I think is a mystery stop asking' (hi albert, hi vpb). I'm calling it because it's there, but I can't think of why except that perhaps I see the most sincerity is his attacks and less of the 'no real preference between the two' that's permeated the thread.

I just find it really weird that you've done a massive 180 on him today over seemingly nothing. I mean, sincerity in his attacks doesn't really jive with me in terms of him going from one of your top scum reads yesterday to a town read today.

I think the best time for a no lynch is right now, if we wanted one.

This is a really dumb idea.

It doesn't look to me like an organic opinion that Hito naturally came to; it instead reads me to me as a manufactured case as a reason to change votes. The facts he referenced were on the board for a while and I'm just not seeing the dramatic catalyst for his post and pivot.

Well, clearly the catalyst was his wagon getting serious. Then there was suddenly a scumspiracy against he and SC.


DDD, I really think SC is a superior lynch today. There is still a chance that hito is misguided and panicking town. SC, however, is pretty clearly scum.

[VP Baltar]

Why are you still trying to frame hito as scum?

Why do I beat my wife? I dunno....


Anyway, at some point are you going to vote SC so we can get on lynch scum?

[VP Baltar]

*lynching

[VP Baltar]

If that's an objection to the question, I don't understand it.

It was an objection to the rhetoric of it. I don't feel I've been "trying to frame hito as scum". That implies his innocence from the start, and consequently implies my attack is scummy. I simply stated the facts as I see them. You're welcome to have a different interpretation, but it is hardly a frame job...which is disturbingly close in allegation to THE MECHANISM *da da daaaaaaaaaaaaah*

I feel like I'm getting nowhere here. And as much as I don't want to admit it, SerialClergyman is presently the only wagon with enough support to lead to a lynch.

I'm not trying to dismiss a case on someone else out of hand, but I'm just not seeing convincing arguments against anyone else and SC's floundering to have any real idea of what's going on stinks to me.

I think we know your stance on hito, but what do you really think of SC? Do you subscribe to THE MECHANISM or do you think it's possible that SC just tagged along with that because it's convenient for him?

[VP Baltar]

It's hito's post where he claimed that you (and me) concocted a master plan to lynch he and Serial back to back and then, possibly, laugh maniacally about it.

[VP Baltar]

Happy scumday, hito!

If SC flips town, which I greatly doubt, I'd probably be most interested in Sando or ABR for starters. It's complete WIFOM though because there would be so many things that would need to be reconsidered at that point. You'd probably look more town I guess if that's what you're worried about.

[VP Baltar]

It's not a bad lynch, but I feel ambivalent about it.

So who's you're preference today then? Me?

[VP Baltar]

You may be wondering how I plan to win you back in only one night, when there were so many problems between us. As this evening must be the most magical, sensual, and perfect night of your entire life, I will keep the details of it a secret in order to bring your arousal to its highest peak.

As a teaser, I will say that a few things will, without a doubt, occur. First, I will compliment you and express sincere regret over what happened between us. I will extend feelings of tenderness and warmth. Then, we will reminisce about the good times that we once shared. Dinner, which will have been carefully prepared over the course of the previous 24 hours, will be served at around 8. During dinner, as well as afterward, we will drink the finest wine from the best wine-producing regions of Australia. Or, if that wine does not meet your exacting standards, I will provide backup wines from the finest wine-producing regions of Chile, France, California, and Germany. There will also be warm appetizers.

After dinner, I will hit you doggy-style. This doggy-style sexing will last all night long. I remember that this is the way that you like it.

[VP Baltar]

I'veo nly recently been mislynched off bad meta in Vi's game, primarily by VP Baltar town. *glare*

Or you were playing badly.......hmph


Regardless, the case against you here isn't primarily meta based.

[VP Baltar]

It could have something to do with him being stalling scum.

[VP Baltar]

SC, if we could lynch someone besides you today who would it be? Albert?

[VP Baltar]

Mason claim please.

[VP Baltar]

meh, I think the risk is greater that way, but if the majority of town feels that way then we should do it as quickly as possible with as little discussion as possible.

[VP Baltar]

(ie just vote No Lynch in your post if you agree)

[VP Baltar]

alright Mr. Mathematics. hmph. You don't have to make me look stupid!

Vote: No Lynch

[VP Baltar]

My initial guess says DDD as one. Not sure on a second. I need to some serious rereading of this thread. That may or may not happen today because I have to work from about noon-8pm. If not today, then this will probably be high on my priorities tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

worried?

[VP Baltar]

I'm working on my isos of everyone right now. Not particularly enthused about mafia at the moment, but I'll put in some work because I'd actually like to win this game. DDD is the first of course:

First thing that stands out to me is DDD's iso 7 after I asked him if he'd be using his trend analysis this game:

I like to think I've gotten better at scumhunting and since that development coincided with the trend analysis I conflated the two so it'll pretty much be business as usual since then minus the trend analysis.

Which is fine on its own, but I don't know if I particularly feel like DDD has been "business as usual" this game or shown much for scumhunting. He excuses himself from having to contribute much in iso 8 because "VPB, Vi and SC (amongst others)" are here and he therefore he doesn't "need to push the pace". This is also the post where he says he's waiting for something scummy to run with. While I know DDD can be lurky regardless of alignment, I question whether or not he's actually run with anything this game? Why say that's what you're going to do if you really have no intention of it?

Next, Vi brings up DDD as lurker scum in Appenine Mafia and DDD makes this comment in his iso 12:

And you're one of the two people who should know best that after the apparently defining game that was Appenine Mafia I changed my playstyle to account for that, three words - Mafia of Order.

This didn't stick out to me as particularly relevant initially, but now that I read it again, I'm not sure what this means. DDD, are you saying that you lurked in Mafia of Order so you could compensate for Appenine and lurk in the future like that?

The case against Amished is trumped-up beyond what it's worth. If you're going to be suspicious of someone over calling the team, try Sando, who tried to sway ABR into "calling the team" by asking if char/DDD/Amished were group scum.

Umm, agreed about Sando, but I can only reply to something after it’s been posted and I was using my time last night to reply to those people who were expecting a reply. My next available opportunity to comment on it is now, where I’m agreeing with you about how it’s bad.

This comes after DDD's exchange with Amished, which was indeed pretty weak. Something about this has the air of being willing to follow now that his argument with Amished hasn't yeilded anything, which I don't like considering how convinced DDD seems to be about Amished in their back and forth.

Now, I of course had some early suspicion of DDD, but then he had this quote:

No, lurkers you can't get a read on hurt games. If you can get a good read on a lurker then there is no need to care about their activity status.

Well, I don't think anyone is reading you as town atm, so....

Nonsense, there's certainly several individuals who know I'm town.

Which I kind of thought was him breadcrumbing mason. Now I have no clue what he was doing.

And again I have to reference this:

By day two however things have happened, people are almost invariably dead with connections that can be made and I can start making reasoned, rational arguments. So in a game that I don't think needs me producing outstanding content, I tend to lurk and just hope for it to be day two already.

I really don't think this was delivered on at all this game. Much like Appenine Mafia, there is the promise of scumhunting but no delivery.

re: DDD voting RECK early - In hindsight, this actually looks like a good move for DDD if he's scum. Charlatan was already at L-2 and certainly wasn't gaining any traction against his lynch. what is slightly questionable about DDD here is that he's agreeing with Amished, who was previously his top scum suspect. I saw no apparent change in opinion on Amished at that time, so why would he suddenly agree with him? I know when I have someone high on my scum list, I certainly give their opinion much less credence than I would if I thought they were town. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Additionally, DDD contributes pretty much nothing for the rest of the day, not that he had given a lot before that.

Day 2 starts with DDD voting Reck again, while tempering it with Sando as his number 2. Nothing outstanding about that.

I'm not really a fan of DDD claiming credit for the Reckoner wagon in iso 29:

I started the wagon on Rec today that's got him up to L-1, no credit for that? I mean I could've made loud noises and repeated things from yesterday and called it a case, but I think it's fairly obvious that the facts speak for themselves considering how the wagon has come together.

Everyone else did the work and I don't know what things he'd be repeating from Day 1 considering he never actually gave a reason for being on it.

Additionally, in the same post he says:

I've tried to question ABR, but he won't answer my question, no credit for that either? The only way I know to possibly get him to engage me is to repeat the question (which I've done) and try and bandwagon him except I believe voting for Rec to be a better course of action which doesn't leave me with much recourse.

Which is conflating his efforts more than a touch, imo. He asked ABR a single question about a side-issue that he never pushes in any kind of serious way.

One thing that I do notice in DDD's iso is that he does seem to be buddying me at times, which I don't know what to think about. It's not so much that he's agreeing with me (even though people don't usually trend toward that), but that he takes it in the most extreme cases to infer scumminess. He does it with ABR-mason by saying that he's not responding to me or himself and he does it with Oj-mason, saying that me pointing out here "wishy-washy positions" makes her likely scum. I dunno, particularly in Oj's case I think he's going farther than I was on my own words.

What also is weird in DDD's iso is that he wanted to seriously lynch all of the masons at one point or another. Doesn't necessarially mean anything, but worth noting.

And rec continues to try and hurt the town by securing posthumous town lynches.

I think I brought this up before, but this doesn't make sense and also sounds like DDD is just too sure that Reck will flip town.

---

Ok, sadly that's the shortest of the isos and it took me most of the day because I keep walking away from my computer. Oh well, this game doesn't have much of a deadline threat, so I guess I can take my time.

Overall, I think there are some scummy things there and DDD's awareness of his own meta early on makes it null. He could very easily be abusing his lurking as a tool to gather town reads this game.

I think I will try to do Troll next since if I was committed to DDD scum, my gut says Troll is his most likely partner.

[VP Baltar]

Troll iso is going to have to be delayed a day most likely. I have to do a radio program tonight and will probably be tired afterward. Apologies.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I apologize for being so swamped lately. I've had time to make quick posts on MS, but not the length needed for the indepth analysis I need to do here. Today is looking better however, so here's to hoping.

DDD, I haven't missed your responses and I have things to say, but I think I want to get out this isos before I get sidetracked with any lengthy debates. I'll come back to you when I'm done.

[VP Baltar]

Zorblag

:

Well, Troll is always very good at appearing town as any alignment, so isoing him and having something stick out as 'oh hey, that's scummy' is going to be unlikely no doubt.

One of the first things I guess I personally would look at is the final votecount on the charlatan lynch.

End of day votecount:

charlatan(7):

SerialClergyman

, Zorblag, VP Baltar,

Amished

, Vi,

Rampage

, [coor=red]xRECKONERx[/color]
xRECKONERx(2): Debonair Danny DiPietro,

charlatan

PorkchopExpress(2):

Sando, Ojanen

Sando(1): PorkchopExpress

Now, considering how hard the charlatan vs. PCE debate went down, I have a hard time believing that there was only one scum on that wagon who was forced to hammer. I know that doesn't mean much to DDD or hito, but to me it means that at least one of Vi or Zorblag is scum. Consequently, it means at least one of hito and DDD should be town. Doesn't say a lot, but it's a good place to start for me and I desperately need to write down my thoughts in this game.

Moving on to the iso, Troll has words and lots of them. This is why I hate trying to get a read on him. He spends a lot of time using phrases like 'That's reasonable' and 'I certainly understand what you mean'...which makes trying to get a read nigh impossible because my senses are dulled from all the words and diplomat playing.

Early on, I notice Troll says this about DDD:

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, I do know that you're willing to hang back and let someone else drive the game; I saw that first hand in the game we IC'd together (I never got around to posting after that game ended by the way; nice work on finishing it up after I got night killed.) The trouble with that approach here is that it doesn't give the rest of us the chance to get a read on you along the way. In the newbie game I wasn't so worried about it as I had more pressing issues with simply making sure that the others knew how to play the game; they were going to look scummier than you by default whether you were talking or not just because they would make mistakes they didn't even know were mistakes. That's not going to come up here; we need your input not just for the sake of the input but also so that we've got a way to judge your play and the connections later on. Waiting till you've got something great to latch on isn't acceptable here.

Now, I want to keep an eye on how he progresses with this throughout the game because I still don't think DDD delivered on any of this and yet Troll was calling him town for a good deal of the game.

I will say that in iso, Troll's exchanges with charlatan do seem fairly genuine. However, in iso 11 he says this:

We're talking about this issue rather than the reasons that I gave for voting you because that's what you chose to respond to in your first post after I cast my vote.

You talked about the votes the others had cast for you but everything that you directed towards me had to do with your failure to answer my question. Why is it that you're trying to strawman me like this rather than asking me more about why I cast my vote?

The problem is that if we go back and look at the post where troll voted (iso 9), there really aren't many actual reasons for voting Charlatan there.

@charlatan, I don't know what your motives were which is why I asked. An answer of:

I was mostly curious to see if someone who wasn't really contributing otherwise would jump on the opportunity to attack erratic play that amounts to a nulltell, and whether they would do so in a thoughtful way or whether they would just be like "WTF lunch? Scum!!"

Would have been all I wanted there. It's reasonable and I assume that you'd already gotten the reaction from me when you gave your "let me turn your question around on you" answer that you gave. Clearly I could make guesses about what you were up to but saying that I had already answered for you when I hadn't and being coy doesn't help us evaluate your play nearly as much as a straightforward answer.

Which is the thing he is saying charlatan chose to respond to rather than the real reasons. And the only other mention of charlatan is:

It's tempting to change my vote now to someone other than Ojanen that I want to hear more from but (PorkchopExpress and Debonair Danny DiPietro both spring to mind) but I think that's probably less productive than joining a charlatan wagon. This either of Albert B. Rampage or VP Baltar are his top choices is overly convenient and I think that they're both red herrings right now.

...Sooooo, what the frak were you voting him for an expecting him to respond to? This particular attack on Charlatan rings more than a little bit false to me.

Later after a few exchanges with Charlatan, Troll says he didn't really have strong reasons for casting it:

The foundation of the vote aside (I didn't have a particularly strong reason to cast it but this early in the game it was strong enough and it's cute that you make that attack now that I've said it was what I was initially expecting)

Which reinforces my point that Troll had no grounds to attack charlatan for questioning the only seemingly stated reason for the vote.

I'm not here to defend Albert B. Rampage's behavior but thus far I've seen plenty of scum reads on him for reasons that don't strike true and nothing to indicate that he isn't town. If a tentative read of town based on that isn't what you've gotten out of that from me then I'm not sure what to tell you.

If you saw "plenty" of attacks on him that didn't "strike true", then why were you not pursuing cases on those persons? Who were those persons attacking ABR that didn't seem honest to you?

Bleh, the more I read Zorblag in iso on Day 1, the more frustrated I'm getting because for all of his words he seems to be saying nothing beyond

1)Charlatan wrongly attacked me because he thought I was irritated
2)ABR plays erratically as town

See how easy it is to sum things up. You should really try to be more succinct.

Troll does give a light jab at DDD in iso 19:

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, I can't tell right now whether you're trying to draw something from a particular person or whether you're still using a more general stalling stance while you're getting general bearings. I'm not at all convinced that you would believe a number of the things that you've been saying so they really should be smoke and mirrors for something else. Would you be willing to elaborate at all on your PorkchopExpress answer or was that given mostly just to give an answer at all?

Mild following up on his earlier concern is good.

After xRECKONERx replaces in and Amished calls him out for what is proving to be a really accurate tell, Troll is perhaps the most vocal about it being null. He goes to a lot of trouble to cite examples and such. Troll, why do you cite examples from your games if you think that the tell would depend on the individual player involved?

More likely I think that the usefulness of the tell is going to depend on the person involved (and whether they're aware that others think it's a tell.)

In iso 20, which is Troll's first post after Reck comes in, he says:

Regarding my post 114, do you think that I should have thought that one of Vi or Scien was scummy based on their exchange? If so was it one or the other in particular that you expected me to go after? Is using a vote for pressuring someone who isn't participating in this game but is posting in other games something you think isn't worth doing? I'll be interested in hearing what you think of the other players who chose to make the "safe" votes on players who hadn't been contributing later on.

And, well, I guess Troll wasn't that interested because Reck never answers and there is no follow up that I see. So.....
Moving on.

I can also confirm that Debonair Danny DiPietro did do pretty much what he's explaining fits this situation in the newbie game we played together. I actually mentioned that game back when I said I wanted to see more content from him. I do still want more content but what he's doing here is consistent with what he did when I was pushing activity in the early game while he hung back.

Which is in reference to:

This sort of game is a game with players I generally respect and don't need to be herded like sheep. If I notice myself in an all sheep game (say a newbie game with no other IC and rubbish SEs or a mini game with no one I know in the game) then I get immediately aggressive pushing whatever looks like even a half decent argument so that the game has something to work off of. But I don't enjoy doing that and I don't think I'm terribly effective at actually hunting scum while I'm doing that, so when I can avoid doing that I do so. By day two however things have happened, people are almost invariably dead with connections that can be made and I can start making reasoned, rational arguments. So in a game that I don't think needs me producing outstanding content, I tend to lurk and just hope for it to be day two already.

And yet earlier you said:

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, I do know that you're willing to hang back and let someone else drive the game; I saw that first hand in the game we IC'd together (I never got around to posting after that game ended by the way; nice work on finishing it up after I got night killed.) The trouble with that approach here is that it doesn't give the rest of us the chance to get a read on you along the way. In the newbie game I wasn't so worried about it as I had more pressing issues with simply making sure that the others knew how to play the game; they were going to look scummier than you by default whether you were talking or not just because they would make mistakes they didn't even know were mistakes. That's not going to come up here; we need your input not just for the sake of the input but also so that we've got a way to judge your play and the connections later on.

Waiting till you've got something great to latch on isn't acceptable here.

So at what point from what you first said that did it become acceptable for him to just lallygag in the background? I don't see how you viewed him as "pushing activity" in the least.

Then we have a brief drop off in activity and Troll comes back saying he'd support Charlatan, Reckoner, or PCE as a Day 1 lynch. While I dig what Troll is saying about Reck in his iso post 23, I do sort of question his charlatan (who hasn't been mentioned really since the weird vote earlier) and PCE preferences (which is apparently good because ABR is pushing it. There is also a brief mention of at worst supporting a Vi or Oj lynch, which I don't understand at all at that point.

Day 2 comes around and Troll is indeed consistent with his Reckoner voting and he once again has an unwavering read on ABR when others attack him. It worries me a bit that he could be THAT confident about someone and never seem to question them at all, but I guess it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Other than that, he's sort of a non-entity for that day, but I think he was pretty busy IRL, so meh.

Day 3, he attacks hito and Serial for decent enough reasons that are hard to argue with. One thing that does stand out to me is Troll's explanation for calling DDD town throughout the game:

@hitogoroshi, I am willing to talk about Debonair Danny DiPietro now, yes. He made my day one no-lynch list when I thought that Amished and VP Baltar were masons. I needed to have more names than just theirs to not talk about so that it would be a bit less clear why I didn't want to vote for them. I saw a few things that looked like Debonair Danny DiPietro might be trying to draw a mason-suspect night kill so I gave him the message in Post 404 which was potentially to let him know that others (Amished in particular) might either be masons or be faking it and to draw some attention to his joining my list. SerialClergyman was the other on that list because he'd drawn attention to the interactions in the first place.

Day two, when I made my statement, I still hadn't fully revealed that I had thought that Amished and VP Baltar were masons on day one so I figured I might as well keep holding over the not interested in voting status for Debonair Danny DiPietro and SerialClergyman.

And of course none of that tells you what I think of Debonair Danny DiPietro. My guess is that he's town. I like his vote on xRECKONERx going back to day one. I think that he's wrong about Albert B. Rampage now and that he needs to just forget the WIFOM thing from xRECKONERx (there's no need to try to outguess scum in this situation; we've got enough other evidence to look at that we shouldn't have to try to hit scum by figuring out the degree to which he'd lie when he knew he was going down anyhow) but I do think that he's doing more to help the town than hinder.

What strikes me as somewhat odd is that the first NK was Amished (though that could have just been for his Reck finger pointing) and that DDD was never taken out even though both he and Troll were allegedly trying to direct the kill in his direction. I know early on I felt that one of Troll or DDD was a likely mason, but apparently the scum in this game are very good at reading gambits...or one or both of them is scum. Not sure.

Most of Troll's Day 3 content looks ok to me for the most part.

@hitogoroshi, I've looked at your argument from Post 998 and thought about your mechanism theory. The trouble that I'm having is that I expect Albert B. Rampage to make the sort of switches in his calls that he's been making and I think that you're theory hinges both on that being scummy and calculated rather than being (as seems more likely) somewhat coincidental in it's timing.

It seems that it ignores how he's been doing it to others (e.g. Debonair Danny DiPietro and myself)

Troll, can you explain why you pointed to yourself and DDD as the most relevant examples here?

---

Ok, finished with the Troll iso. Apologies for the gigantic post again, but those are the relevant points I see.

Troll, could you also tell me how important you think it is for town members to figure out who the masons are in this game, particularly in relation to scum hunting.

As with DDD, feel free to respond to what you want for now and I'll probably end up coming back after I finish my hito and Vi isos.

[VP Baltar]

I will probably get to hito iso today. FYI.

[VP Baltar]

VP, I know this is a bit late, but I'm a bit curious as to your thought process behind this:

I think I will try to do Troll next since if I was committed to DDD scum, my gut says Troll is his most likely partner.

Well, as I said, it was largely a gut feeling and that would be something I definitely need to corroborate with evidence in thread to firmly believe it. If you want actual reasoning behind it, I think they have been a bit soft on one another, particularly in the Troll-->DDD direction, which I pointed out in my iso of Troll. He claims I'm reading it incorrectly, so I guess I need to review it again and see if I am, but I don't think that's really the case.

Addiontally, I don't know if I see honesty in their voting. Their reasoning hasn't been the best imo (DDD toward Reck was almost too certain and Troll toward Charlatan doesn't jive for me).

If the scum team started as DDD/Troll/(Scien)xRECKONERx, then I believe ABR would have been correct in Day 2 being deliberately chosen to make Reck a sacrificial lamb.


Working on hito iso now. And I also just finished my first lemon chiffon cake. Talk about being productive.

[VP Baltar]

hitogoroshi

:

I'm firmly in Troll's boat when it comes to hito's iso mega-posting. Unfortunately for him, I think he's painted himself into a meta corner of the giant iso posts when he replaces, so I think he'd do it as town or scum. I'm just going to sum up what I see his alignment reads as being upon replacing in:

ABR

- confused on his iso, but ends up voting him after checking everyone out

Amished

- was already confirmed town, but says he doesn't believe in the replacement scumtell because it would hit him as town if used.

charlatan

- also confirmed town already. Says he agrees with one point against me and one against Troll made my charlie

DDD

- neutral. doesn't like his play, but likes his vote on Reckoner

Ojanen

- ? I guess he seems to have a townish read. He thinks she makes an ok case against him, but wants her to stop voting there. I dunno, this iso seems muddled.

Porkchopexpress

- says he liked PCE's Sando suspicion and he's confirmed town to himself obv.

Sando

- scum. Says he wasn't doing much of anything and his voting (particularly on PCE) sucked a big one.

xRECKONERx

- loves the RECKONER wagon and the fact that confirmed townies loved it....but he doesn't think it's better than Sando, so...yeah.

SerialClergyman

- neutralish? likes some of SC's posts, but feels uneasy about him.

Vi

- ? thinks her Day 1 content is "bland", but Day 2 is better particularly her attacks on Sando.

VP Baltar

- not sure on his read of me, but likes my ABR vote at that time.

Zorblag

- townish? likes some of his posting, but is having a hard time getting a read on him. \

After the iso spectacular, hito makes some weird comments about having no town reads (which I don't like), not thinking he can get Sando lynched and therefore not voting him (which I don't like), likes DDD/Sando/ABR wagons (which is fine), and still likes reck but it's too early to end the day (which is so-so).

hito pushes on ABR in a way that seems relatively genuine. He attacks him for not following through on Reckoner, which I also felt at the time was scummy despite ABR's love affair with hyperbole. Of course, all of that banks on Reckoner scum who hito had yet to vote for at that point.

He repeatedly lets out the mantra of "Reck shouldn't be the only wagon today", which I can get down with but he says it A LOT and that's a touch strange/sounds a bit like stalling.

Then we get it again in iso 10:

As I said from the start, it's hard not to like a Reck lynch when confirmed townies love it so, but this resistance to an ABR lynch is something I want to push at now, rather than defer to.

But by the next day, hito feels that no one is listening to him about ABR (though he didn't SAY anything else for people to hear) and he's ready to put Reck at L-1:

I'm kind of aggravated that while I feel ABR came off greatly for the worse in that exchange everyone else seems inclined to pretend it never happened because his vote is back on Reck. That being said, lynching Reck is a hell of a consolation prize so I'm not as mad as I normally would be.

Vi, I'll probably be with you tomorrow on that Sando lynch (I'm gonna re-read him tonight with his most recent posts in mind). But for now, what the hell:

unvote, vote: Reckoner

I could read this as forced and settling for a bus after failing to gain traction elsewhere.

Day 3 hito continues the ABR + Sand = Scumz4life tune, which reading in iso seems like he's really in a rut. I can't necessarily tell if it's a town rut or a scum rut, however.

Today he's got Albert B. Rampage and Sando still listed as his top suspects but he chooses not to vote at all at the start because voting for Albert B. Rampage would be a waste of his vote because the wagon wouldn't get going yesterday and Sando isn't current around to defend himself. I just don't buy it. How is voting for Albert B. Rampage more a waste of a vote than not voting at all at this point. If he's all over an Albert B. Rampage lynch (which I still don't think is a good move) then there's really no good reason at all not to rest his vote there while he's seeing what others do.

The reason is that as soon as I vote for someone, having an 'unvote, vote X' will give the impression that I think X is more scummy than ABR, when in truth ABR is still my top suspect and I'm only not voting him because nothing will come of it at the moment.

I think Troll brings up a good point here about hito's hesitance and hito's response is less than understandable.

**Side question for hito, have you felt intimdated by this player list at all during this game?

After starting the day with ABR/Sando as scum that hito can't vote for, he comes in late on the SC wagon and puts him at L-1 after having no reasoning whatsoever. I had sort of forgotten about this, but I'm glad I was reminded of it in this iso.

After this, I push on hito after I meta'ed Reckoner which starts a wagon on him. It gets good traction and then we get THE MECHANISM. I mean, I still still think this is one of the most insane things I have heard in a mafia game, and now that ABR has flipped town it basically confirms it is insanity at best. The question is if scum would come up with something THAT contrived and put in all that effort to save their skin. hito and SC were both at L-2 at the time and hito wasn't on SC's wagon, so why would he as scum go to all that trouble to try and defuse both their wagons instead of getting a viable SC mislynch?

What also gives me major hesitation about calling hito scum for that is how much he brought up his own lynch. That's a narrow line for scum to walk on and most would err on the side of caution in that regard. Sure, a scum might say something like 'When I flip town..blah blah blah', but they don't often ask to be lynched.

Let's assume I'm lynched. SC is more or less confirmed town. ABR could be doing another Reck-level bus, of course, but I just don't see that at all in his interactions with SC. The one switch made sense with a scumbuddy relationship (from 'wanna go? Right now?' to 'probably town') but I just don't see this events with an ABR/SC scumteam. The mechanism is the only interpretation of these events that I can find possible.

On the other hand, hito is also a touch over the top with all of it and could be scum feeling pressure that wasn't necessarily there. ie:

This is more or less a death sentence for me. While I dearly hope the town can see my points now, pragmatism tells me nothing will come of it because I've long since been yelling in to the wind regarding Albert. I did not vote for Albert at the start of the day because I knew it would do nothing, and I vote him here knowing it will probably do nothing and with it doing I will be the only viable option for a lynch.

But that's fine. Because the difference is when I go town, my dead hand will not be pointing at the heart of the other popular wagon. I'll be pointing at scum.

Basically, I really need to hear from hito today now that ABR has flipped town. I know you don't want to do wall posts and all of that, which is fine, but I need to hear who you actually think is scum and some damn good reasons why after the big fuss you made about your theory being the only possible explanation.

Now, I will say on the other (third?) hand that hito did sort of play the "Reck's big time scum" card quite awhile yesterday without voting. It gives me a bit of pause, but it is plausible that it came from town.


As I said, I had nothing against a Reck wagon but I don't like having a one wagon day most of the time - which I think is justified here, seeing all the content that prolonging the day brought out.

I want to come back to this, what do you think was the most pertinent info that came out of that day by you staying off of Reck? I don't really mean this in a revisionist way now that ABR has flipped town, I just wanted to know if you could remember your thoughts from this post.

I still think hito's flip on Sando was weird considering his stance toward him all game prior to that and it wasn't ever explained all that well, but meh.

I like hito's iso 44, but I think I have a strong bias toward believing Troll and DDD are the scum who made Reckoner an early bus for street cred.

---

Overall, I can see hito going either way, but I very slightly lean town on him because some of his posting would be very hard to fake as scum. Complicating this of course is that hito has basically no scum meta and it's hard to see how ballsy he is as scum. I'll need to look closer at the link he provided, but his professed strategy of "look as townie as possible" doesn't really fit with my idea of a crazy gambit like THE MECHANISM would be.

hito hasn't had a great deal of interaction with any of you guys to the point that I can see an obvious buddy for him either, though that doesn't mean it's not plausible. I think the biggest thing I need right now to help me solidify my read on hito is to hear from him who he thinks the scum are and why.

[VP Baltar]

I was just about to slander Vi for posting a lot in this game and making my final iso dreadful, then I realized I'm about ten times worse.

Oh well, hoping to get to it tonight and then we can get on with the serious discussion. After I finish putting my thoughts out there, hopefully people won't have such an excuse for putting absolutely no effort into this game.

[VP Baltar]

VPB, a question for you and I'd like you to answer starting with the words "That depends".

Do you have the same alignment as Zorblag?

lol, what? I'll give it a shot.

That depends on if I'm clairvoyant or not, which I'm not, so I couldn't tell you for sure. Right now I'm leaning no, but I still have things I need to look in to.

Sorry for my lack of posting. It's spring break and I've had friends over for days, and it's hard for me to tell them "go hang out alone in the basement, I'm posting in a mafia game!"

Some friends! kick them to the curb immediately.

Not particularly. I replaced in to this game specifically because of the great player list and flavor text, but that hasn't (at least consciously) ever really translated into being intimidated.

I was kind of hoping you'd say yes. When I isoed you I felt you were being excessively apologetic for your playing and making a lot of excuses (ADD and the like), so I thought maybe you just felt an excessive need to "perform" in this game. Why so much excuse making then if not for the player list?

[VP Baltar]

@Vi - your wagon analysis is very poor at best and I find it quite humorous that every piece of evidence you are looking at fits your hypothesis. This is a scientific first indeed.



Not sure I like the fact that EVERYONE agrees Troll is scummy without reservation.

Still need to muster the will to look at Vi.

hito, what is your town read on Vi based on?

[VP Baltar]

wagon placement =/= universal scumtell. Sorry to say. Lots of factors can affect it, including general playstyle, desire to bus, playing to the 'original thinkers' crowd, etc. Surely you don't think you're the first to make this argument in a game of mafia. I think it's pretty fail overall if this is anything but corroborative evidence toward your thoughts.

More than anyone else, he pushed the SerialClergyman/hito lynches D3. I'm the last person qualified to say that's a bad thing in and of itself, but what IS a bad thing is how so much of it looked like empty ABR-style pressure; he basically bullied his vote onto SerialClergyman. I never did get an answer about why he was pushing hito, or at least one that wasn't as terrible as "xRx's meta". Plus, the comment about the two assassins joining in the end seemed really contrived tbh.

Sorry to say, but SC got himself lynched. He looked scummy and I don't feel bad about. Also, I think you're familiar enough with my play to know how I roll, so meh about you calling my arguments empty. They are what they are and I push what I think is the best lead at the time, even if you think it's 'lol badxRx meta'.

And if you think my point was contrived, you should actually read THE MECHANISM again. Shouldn't be that tough to see what I mean now that you can be certain about ABR's alignment, even though it was painfully obvious by the time those shenanigans came up.

More or less as expected, Today VP Baltar has been doing isolation reads but hasn't come out with very solid conclusions. So far we have an awkward scumread on DDD, no conclusive read on Troll, and "very slightly Town" on hito, which is something of a stretch considering the points I'm calling out as transparently Town have been noted. But the walls are really large and impressive-looking!

Why is me doing isos expected of me? What precedent do you have for expecting this?

Seriously though, I've been pretty clear all of today with my thoughts and have easily put in the most effort thus far. My iso posts are hardly void of content, which seems to be what you are implying here, so I think that's pretty unfair to say. I'm not ready to call anyone obv scum yet because I think everyone here is good enough to fool anyone else. I'd rather take my time and get it right than come out of the gate saying Player X is scum and should die quickly. We still have plenty of time before deadline and I have things I want to say once I've fully addressed everyone in iso.

[VP Baltar]

Yep, I knew that. That doesn't stop it from being accurate enough in practice to warrant being used.
Or do you claim to be some kind of playstyle-exception? Even ABR the fscking legend looks better on the analysis

I'm not claiming to be any kind of exception, but playing the ages old third vote on a wagon is scum card is pretty weak. Maybe if it was 2005 that'd be an accurate scumtell.

The hito vote came at an opportune time - hito had just voted SerialClergyman to L-1 with a terrible post, and your vote put hito up to L-1 for a flimsy excuse.

Do you think hito looked scummy before that vote?

At this stage in the game, I don't think that walls qualify as "content" when there is no conclusion attached.
"Oh this is good - oh this is bad - oh this I'm not sure about" neither convicts anyone nor convinces anyone, and is therefore useless.

So DDD and Troll being my top picks for scum at the start of the day aren't solid conclusions? You (and hito) of all people should know the game my hesitation from rushing lylo is coming from. I want to take the time to look at everything as objectively as possible and arrive at the best lynch. If that means me spewing out some thoughts and reserve my conclusions at the moment, then deal with it.

Also, how likely do you think it is that scum would try to bus their partner today Vi?

[VP Baltar]

Or in another sense: How many wagons have you tried to start?

I don't know. Look back in the thread. I'm not saying I've played my best game ever, but categorizing it as nothing but following is a touch simplistic and not really representative of my play. In terms of the average point, yes you're not pointing to a specific wagon, but it's still the same overall message, isn't it?

While I can see where and how you said that earlier, it was certainly easy to miss and rather noncommittal~
If you're referring to tubby's game, rushing LyLo had nothing to do with how we lost that game.

I don't believe it was all that non-committal, especially when no one else was really even talking. It's not like I was feeling out people's opinions on it and seeing what would be a good mislynch. I plainly said, 'My gut says X at the moment, but I definitely want to read and discuss as much as possible today'. Not sure what your issue with that is.

As far as tubby's game, it was certainly not the MAIN issue that we lost that game, but I do think that you guys voted rather quickly and for little reason there. Something to think about.

In terms of planning to bus, I don't know (given that this is LyLo, I wouldn't particularly expect it). In terms of actually bussing at the first sign of danger, not really that unlikely at all.
Your thoughts on the subject?

Probably along the same lines, though I think scum might risk looking suspicious to keep their buddy from being the lynch. I mean, it is only one wrong vote and they can win.

Incidentally, is there anyone you're interested in calling defTown? or would that be spoiling your conclusions?

Hito would probably be my closest call to defTown, though that's kind of strong language. I think his play would be kind of hard to fake as scum. Hito seems like a pretty smart guy, however, so it's not

impossible

that he's pulling the wool over my eyes.

How confident are you in your DDD read?

Troll, if you had a choice today of lynching Vi or DDD, which would it be and why do you prefer that?

[VP Baltar]

I can answer that question for you - you started the Vi wagon with the first vote of the game

lol

If you really want to be fair about it, I was doing plenty of work on charlatan and ABR Day 1 (not that those turned out well), I actually made a case on Reck Day 2 as opposed to almost everyone else, and I was active with SC (whether you agree with my points or not).

Now, I don't deny that I have been lazy at times in this game, because I have and my general interest in playing mafia atm is quite low, but I'm having flashbacks to this same argument with you in Last Man Standing and I'm not particularly interested in going down that path again.

I think you're embellishing what you said in #164 quite a bit.~

I think you're not reading the thread, considering in iso 166 I say:

I think I will try to do Troll next since if I was committed to DDD scum, my gut says Troll is his most likely partner

It's not banging at the gates for anyone's lynch, but my opinions were plenty clear.

So you don't have any Town reads that are worth much, given that you said you had a "very slightly Town" read on hito (#172)?

How long do you plan to argue semantics? I just very clearly said that hito would be the top of my town reads, why is that not sufficient for you?

I think the fact that you are stating your town reads are so clear in Lylo like this is suspicious given your penchant for being fairly probing normally.

I'm reasonably confident in my DDD read at the moment. There are a few things that worry me (the egoism and the Amished vote, as well as the hito vote D3 based on intuition) but the fact remains that he hasn't been pushing Town lynches, which is pretty creditable on its own.

Do you feel he's been pushing lynches in general in this game?

[VP Baltar]

Actually, that wasn't intended to be as much of an accusation. I noticed that you're the only person who hasn't stated one very likely Town read.
This is true LyLo, so targeting someone other than yourself has a 50/50 chance of hitting scum. If you can (accurately) identify a Townie, that goes up to 2/3. Two, and you can box the scum in with PoE. Obviously, being correct is important, but it should be entirely doable by this point.

I don't disagree with you that a strong town read or two at this point can all but win this game for us. I guess I just feel a bit burned after tubby's game because I took that route too quickly and it cost us.

As far as hito goes, you could be right that I'm putting my tinfoil hat on a bit too often, but The Mechanism is just really weird to consider coming from town, imo. In the words of Yos2, *shrug*.

I skimmed you last night in iso and I dunno, it's kind of hard for me to buy you as scum this game too. I initially got a very strong town read on you when you started interacting with me re: us being masons in the original incarnation. I just don't see any motivation to do that as scum, but plenty to do it as town. Additionally, your reaction around the hito v. SC era reads as pretty genuine. However, I also got a chance to see the

Never

Scum

as scum during my tenure on the scummies judging committee this year, and it's not impossible that you used inside knowledge to look good in that situation.

I'm still quite bothered by your DDD town-read because I think his play this game actually fits very well with what he is capable as scum. Look how much credit he tried to take for xRx's lynch when in reality he did nothing for it. Look at how he is trying to bolster his towniness based on his voting record. I understand that your hesitation in thinking he would bus reck like that, but also consider Troll's general absence that day. If I was looking at them as a scum team, it looks like a perfect bus in the sense that they did nothing real to push it and yet can claim credit later for being a part of it.

I agree about the absence of everyone else being irritating, especially after being promised opinions.

[VP Baltar]

You actually expected it?~

I like to believe the best in people. Of course, I'm wrong 90% of the time.

re: skimming - I really wanted to do a full iso, but this week is horrible for me in terms of work. I know that means nothing to MS, but I can really only be making quick posts until Monday or so.

re: The Mechanism - yes, wanting yourself lynched doesn't make sense as scum and I pointed that out in my iso of hito. But the insistance of that really came after The Mechanism. His analysis itself is ridiculously contrived, when if I had been town in his situation I probably would have just assumed SC was scum.

[VP Baltar]

I'm curious as to where everyone else went.

I was waiting for the Troll's promised analysis that I thought we were going to get last night.

Why are you doing that exactly?

[VP Baltar]

So, reading the above Zorblag, am I correct in assuming your top picks are DDD and hito?

[VP Baltar]

Still very busy this weekend and posting mostly to avoid a prod. I'm hoping I can find a few hours today to go back to DDD's reply post to my iso and rehash some things I wanted to say back then. No guarantees it will be today though.

[VP Baltar]

Wait, so Troll was voted and hasn't been lynched yet? Interesting.

I'm finally semi-caught up on my work. I'm going to make some dinner and then I'll give you guys some content. Sorry for the delay.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I'm going to keep this semi-brief since I'm tired as hell and you guys seem to be doing more than your share to wall it up at this point.

@Vi - you know, as I'm reading your posts, one of the things that is starting to bother me a touch is how much you seem to be trying to bully people toward hurried conclusions. I mean, even when you're like "deadline is only six days away"...well so what? To me, that's sufficient time to reach a reasonable conclusion considering most everyone is moving toward something (sans DDD it seems, though apparently he turns that around in the next page). My question for you is why are you in such a hurry? Why haven't you voted when you've already declared hito and DDD to be obv town? Seems to me like you have this game wrapped up in a neat little package and I don't understand your hesitation considering how confident you claim to be.

Why is it that he couldn't be scum mostly coasting through the game with no huge plan outside an xRECKONERx bus and then simply not participating much during days beyond that because it was working? Perhaps I've got the basis for your read wrong but I'm not really seeing all that much you think he's done other than being on the right wagons that makes him seem town to you.

Bingo. The excuse making for DDD's play flabbergasts me. Vi, how much experience do you have with DDD? Would you say he's an adaptive player?

Heaven forbid I spend two days visiting with my family. Hito, sod off, I'm pretty sure I've been at least or more active than both you and Trollblag today. Furthermore, I shouldn't have to pontificate on how just because VPB and Trollblag decided to wallpost somehow makes them more town then an incisive, but smaller post like my ISO 60.

This not only is over the top, but also once again indicative of you trying to claim more credit for the discussion than you really have been doing. I didn't like it with your Reck wagon BS and I don't like it here.

Is still bullshit and maybe the SC lynch was inevitable because you were simply gunning for a lynch and you didn't care whether it was Hito or SC, but from my perspective the day was still wide open with three competing bandwagons.

You're referring to my wagon as the third? You seriously thought that was a viable lynch at that point?

--edit-- I guess Troll asked this already.

Not particularly, but when I made my vote I specifically stood against it to try and help kill it from gaining momentum, because it might not have been likely but it certainly was viable.

I guess it's arguing semantics, but aren't likely and viable close enough in meaning here? I don't think anything about that wagon was likely to happen, particularly considering neither of them had a good reason for being there in the first place.

In terms of the Troll-DDD spat, I side with Troll. Sorry Vi, but I think his interpretation of events is far closer to my own and DDD definitely seems to be slinging shit as much as possible and skewing his play throughout this game as somehow being beneficial to the town. Additionally, I think I've had a little bit of experience with Troll scum in recent times via his hydra and I just haven't had that same feeling from him all game. Perhaps it's because he's not in the hydra, but he is generally the predominant poster in that pairing anyhow, so I tend to think it's his alignment that is different here.

My top pick for scum is DDD. I'm not entirely sure on a partner.

[VP Baltar]

Vi, VP, how likely do you think it is that DDD and Zorblag are actually scum busing each other?

It's a possibility I have definitely considered, though Troll's posts seem logical and not like faked scum attacks. Not that he's incapable of doing that.

@Vi - is your wiki up to date with all of the games you are currently playing in? I'm assuming it is, but I just wanted to check something.

[VP Baltar]

Am I the only one who feels like VPB's comments in regards to me almost seem more like criticisms of my play as poor rather than an assessment of my play as scummy?

Really? That's how you're interpreting it?

[VP Baltar]

No, it was an absolutely pointless statement intended as a funny joke... in LYLO... with votes on the board. Of course I was serious, I fail to see the causality in your posts or a larger narrative; it mostly seems to consist of whining that I haven't been active enough or that I'm taking credit for being more active than I have.

Tell you what, normally I try not to argue with scum because it's like running your head into a wall and generally doesn't accomplish more than what can be done with some gentle prodding of the town, but seeing as this is lylo and winning this game would mean a bit to me, I'll outline the longer narrative for you later today after I finish my morning stories. It has very little to do with you "playing badly" as you want to paint it.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, DDD, it's time to look at the points I raised against you and how they have absolutely nothing to do with "bad play" and everything to do with "scummy play".

1) You have done approximately zero scum hunting this game, despite promising to do so early.

Scummy motivation: You made excuses for not being active early after being pressured about it by saying that 'itsa commin', yet it never comes. Looks to me like the exact same kind of excuse making you were doing in Appenine to me.

2) You go from thinking Amished is the scummiest player in the game to following him completely on Reckoner.

Scummy motivation: you wanted to make yourself look good later in the game. Reck was clearly not going to be lynched on Day 1 and your lack of any pushing for it wasn't helping anything. However, you've been able to conveniently (and vocally) claim now that you were SOOO right about Reck in the first place.

3) Claiming credit for the Reckoner wagon

Scummy motivation: while this may be relatable to the last point, it is a major sticking point for me. YOU DID NOTHING TO FURTHER THE WAGON, and yet seem to be portraying yourself as a hero over it. You were just far too certain about it for my taste and I think it was deliberate.

4) All of our masons were top scum targets for you

Scummy motivation: Obviously if you had a semi-mason read on any of them, trying to get lynches going on them to the point of claiming would help narrow down your mason reads and help you to better direct your night kills.

---

Now to finally address DDD's responoses to my iso of him:

I got behind Amished’s theory pretty much as soon as he promoted it; I tried to get him back on that wagon when he left it for the D1 mislynch. As soon as D2 began I jumped back on the wagon and unlike others never wavered; I’m not sure how I could’ve run with that idea more than I did.

Even if we exclude that I think I’m hardly alone in being more than a little uncertain and indecisive in this game.

Again, this is you claiming FAR more credit for anything Reck related than you actually did. You voted and essentially lurked after charlatan was L-2 and was pretty much dead. Then Day 2 you voted and said very little. I don't see how this is you "running" with anything. As far as the bolded, well I agree that scumhunting this game has been very difficult, but I don't see you doing much of it or trying to work things out.

As the numbers from Apennine showed there was a significant gap in my meta. I would’ve been a fool not to fix the gap. Since it was easier to slow down my activity to my scum level than ramp up my scum activity to town levels that’s what I did. I’ve never denied that and I’ve never used meta as a positive argument except to counter those trying to make the argument that it indicts me.

Ok, as long as you admit it I'm cool. I know you're a very smart guy and I wanted Vi to realize that you know your own meta.

So when I found something and ran with it overconfidently that’s scummy; except earlier I was being chided for not running with anything. If you want to get on my case about the argument with Amished being poor that’s fine because it was poor, but your arguments about not running with anything versus being convinced are at cross-purpose and are absolute nonsense.

No, I don't think Amished's arguments were poor. In fact, I think I'm the person who knows his argument best. I've seen it before and he and I have had extensive discussions about it when we've played as a hydra.

My issue isn't that you ran with something either. My issue is that you ran with something from your top scum suspect. I find it hard to believe that you did a 180 on your read over a tell you've never seen before and could easily be seen as contrived.

In this game I’m the only person who hasn’t been voting confirmed town at deadline: you, Vi, and Zorblag were all on the D1 mislynch, PCE was on another town wagon; I was voting for scum. Vi was also voting for a pro-town player on D2 while I helped lynch scum. And on D3 Hito was voting a pro-town player; while VPB, Vi, and Zorblag all contributed to the mislynch. Scumhunting is just the tool to find and lynch scum and by that standard you have absolutely no place to chide me. For all your “scumhunting” you’ve lynched more town than scum; the same cannot be said about me.

Again, Mr. Perfect outside the reality of actually not knowing who the scum were from the start. I think you're a great player, but far from infallible in your reads. Pardon me if I find this more than hard to swallow.

So your argument here is that I’m too confident that the player who flipped SCUM would flip TOWN and that’s why I’m that player’s scum partner.

At least you made it obvious that you’re blatantly making shit up with that last one. Really trashes the positive read I had on you from the rest of the game.

Day 5 and you haven't been on a SINGLE mislynch. Show me a single other game where you reached Day 5 and did the same thing and I'd have to reconsider my position.

[VP Baltar]

hito, who do you want to lynch today?


Happy birthday, Vi!

[VP Baltar]

Tyson switching his vote on Survivor last night

lol

[VP Baltar]

In response to VPB; first off despite your attempts to characterize my statements that way I never promised to put together some fantastic scum hunting posts as you’ve suggested. I said when I found something interesting, I would run with it. I found Amished’s interactions with me interesting, I ran with it. I decided I was wrong and that he raised good points about Rec, I ran with that.

I don't want to get into a semantics argument because those are never helpful, but judging from this we either have very different definitions of 'running' with something or you're just trying trump up your general play.

Second, I made it absolutely clear that I’ve never seen scum burn a tell like Amished would have been doing. I also made it clear that I found the logic behind the position sound. Your position also rests upon the assumption that I found Amished extremely scummy and wanted him dead that instant when that was never my position. In fact I said after Vi rebuffed my initial Amished arguments, “And bear in mind, that it was you people who decided that when I finally said something it would be some super terrific point; I never claimed to have any phenomenal insight only that when something did interest me I would pursue it.” Do those sound like the words of someone who is completely confident of their position and driving towards a lynch? Or do they sound more like the words of someone whose found something they don’t like and have decided to push the issue to gather more information? I think from any sort of neutral perspective the second is the logical conclusion.

By burning a tell, you mean that people wouldn't trust him with it later if he tried to use it? Perhaps, but I've seen him use it several times and it is actually fairly accurate (still waiting for site meta to change considering how vocal he's been with it). I'm not sure if it'd actually be burnt or not, but I can understand you saying that as town.

As far as your flip in position on him, well in the words of your avatar, Bullshit! You didn't just have a casual vote on him you were sitting on until something better came along. You were legitimately pursuing him as your top suspect and "running" with that more than you even did against Reck, who you claim was so blatantly scummy from the moment that Amished pulled his tell.

I don't know. I seriously need to think about if I can believe you would flip just like that over a tell you purportedly have no familiarity with.

Third, yes it’s my fault that I was right on D1 and then on D2 and tried to hand you a scum lynch, but you ignored me on D1 and dicked around on D2. I still find it the funniest thing in the world when I get criticized for being right by people who got it wrong.

For the last time, it doesn't have to do with you being right about Reck. Hell, I thought you were townish for it for a long time. It's being OVERLY right with apparently no real effort and then trying to exaggerate your contribution that bothers me.

Fourth, obviously the masons were huge targets of mine as I helped to create those massive bandwagons on Oj and Sando that had them claiming their roles to save their lives. What do you mean that never happened? What do you mean I never voted for either of them? VPB, really, if you’re trying to argue that I did absolutely nothing to contribute to the Rec wagon despite voting for it; it makes absolutely no sense for you to turn around and claim that by my words alone without even voting I somehow seriously imperiled or intended to imperil Oj or Sando.

Where did I say you imperiled them? I said you attacked all of the masons at one point or another and seriously. I don't think the support was really ever there for any of their lynches, so as scum it would be doubtful that you would push it too hard, but you certainly can't deny that you said at one point or another that you thought all of them scum.


As far as the game you provided, I will read it as I eat dinner I think, but judging by your description, you could have simply said, "No, I don't have a game where I have been as successful as this one."


Hey, hito:

who do you want to lynch today?

[VP Baltar]

Vi, I really want to hear your thoughts on DDD at this point. You said you were going to look back and I want to hear it before I vote either Troll or DDD. I'll be around for deadline at least until 2 or so.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I know deadline is tomorrow. I was just giving a heads up since I was pretty absent last weekend due to work.

I'm not rushing you or anything. Just would like to hear it by today so we have tonight and tomorrow to discuss if necessary.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar, why are you everywhere else but here?

I'm here, don't worry. I think I've said my piece for the most part, however. As I already said, I'm very interested in what you think of DDD at this point.

I'm also reading DDD's game while watching Caprica. If I have anything to add other than that, you'll be the first to know.

Is there a specific opinion you'd like to hear from me atm, or is this you generally trying to posture as the posting police?

[VP Baltar]

I'd like to actually know what your stance on DDD is today if you've arrived at some sort of conclusion. I didn't want to preempt you if you're still doing the investigation thing, but I basically want to know if he's still unlynchable to you today or if you've had a change of heart.

[VP Baltar]

Does this help you at all?

Yes, it does actually. It was mostly his debate with Troll that made this turn for you? If DDD flipped scum, who do you think is his most likely buddy?

I know, I hate hypotheticals like that too, but I'll make an exception this once.

hito, I do agree with Vi that you could give us some kind of a solid indication of your voting intentions. Today could end with someone not voting, so I'd like to hear everyone's main intention.

(Also, I'm going to venture a guess at Vi had some caffiene recently)

[VP Baltar]

Oh right.
What did you get out of DDD's game?

Boredom!

But seriously, from what I have read thus far (yes yes, not so dedicated at this second) I would agree with your assessment about him being much more active and actually, you know, doing stuff.

As far as the central argument about his effectiveness scumhunting, I'll need to finish it sometime tomorrow morning to really judge that. Like i said before though, I don't on first glance think it's equitable to the 100% accuracy he is boasting of in this game.