Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Votecount as of this post:
Vi(3): VP Baltar, Ojanen, Scien
SerialClergyman(2): Sando, PorkchopExpress
Albert B. Rampage(1): SerialClergyman,
PorkchopExpress(1): Vi
Sando(1): Amished
Not Voting(4): Zorblag, Albert B. Rampage, charlatan, Debonair Danny DiPietro
With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.
Yer, it was a deadpan reply to the bolded grammatical beauty.Vi wrote:
Obvious joke vote, VP.VP Baltar 45 wrote:
que?Amished wrote:IT'S CAUSE HE KNOWS THAT VI IS TOWN. And that you're scum, VP... Either way, he's your partnerthen so therefore
YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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This is highly irrelevant since she does it in EVERY SINGLE GAME.Scien wrote:Ok... maybe an accusation to get you to talk then?
The reason you add the l-# to the your votes when you are the first vote or part of an early wagon would be that you don't want backlash from the person you are voting, as you don't want to get dragged into discussion. However you do want to vote to avoid suspicion. Adding the very high l-# softens the vote's blow, and makes it less likely to get a hard negative response from the voted party.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Votecount as of this post:
Vi(2): Ojanen, Scien
SerialClergyman(2): Sando, PorkchopExpress
Albert B. Rampage(2): SerialClergyman, Zorblag
Sando(1): Debonair Danny DiPietro
Scien(4): Amished, Vi, VP Baltar, charlatan
Not Voting(1): Albert B. Rampage
With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.
So you are suggesting that it took you over an hour to find a couple games where Vi used the L-# in her voting?Scien wrote:I was checking after I prompted him for more. I finished and came back after you posted. Nice opportunism there though.
I'm around, but also at work. Are you guys really telling me you want immediate actions out of me?
Which games did you look at and how did you find them?YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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What was it then if not an accusation? What were your other reasons for voting Vi?Scien wrote:So after a question that was pretty much a play style question, my vote's meaning changes? I made no accusations based off it yet. That was all part of the trump up to get you to respond to me.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I don't expect an experienced player who is town to be sensitive at all about being called scum this early in the game.Troll wrote:in our new growing early accusation exchange I'm not sure how touchy VP Baltar expects Albert B. Rampage to be
Really? I just see him basically diddling himself in the thread and being forced to participate.Troll wrote:In any case Albert B. Rampage is here and poking at things which is what I want him to be doingYOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I don't see what's not useful about it. You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation of his reaction when I pushed toward him, but I'm speaking more about him as a player with plenty of games under his belt than I am to any specific meta points. Everyone plays differently, of course, but there is a certain standard of play I expect from people who I respect as players and are experienced. If I see variances from that, expect me to call him/her on it.Troll wrote:@VP Baltar, clearly you've seen enough of Albert B. Rampage's play to make a judgment call on it as you were willing to make a judgment call on his play. I don't think that the judgment call you're making fits all that well with my experience with his play and I'm trying to figure out how much that should be an issue for me. Is there a reason you'd rather not answer my question in a useful way?YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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That comment does not speak to something that would be meta exclusive to ABR, nor was it drawn from a specific point in any single game. My playing experience with ABR is limited, but from my memory I don't recall him being so personally reactive in various games I have read him in.Ojanen wrote:That reads as a little strange, VP, with the standard of play generalization rhetorics.
This does imply meta, and I'd find it useful if you answered more specifically from where it comes.VP wrote:I don't believe I've seen ABR so touchy before.
Outlandish? Sure. Antagonistic? Definitely. Flustered into pushing his RVS vote as serious after a flippant call for his lynch... not so much.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I think it was reactionary, which is suspicious because it points out a sensitivity to being called scum.Oj wrote:So would you call ABR's play bad here; if yes, why?
Off the top of my head, I remember reading him as town in Incognito's Chosen game and some open with Jahudo. Most recently though (Quick and Dirty, The Amish Village) he's been scum.Oj wrote:No, seriously, surely there's some memory trail of the various games you've read him in, some fuzzy idea what those might have been (you don't need to dig up links or anything, just gimme some names).
I don't think it's worth bringing discussioni about the masons into at this point.PCE wrote:@VP and Zorblag: Do you think ABR is hiding behind the masons to indirectly address VP's(your) accusations?YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care. I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.Charlatan wrote:ABR making a joke about cocaine/your ass does not strike me as particularly out of the norm, for what it's worth.
re: WoW discussion-I dunno anything about it. You can make me whatever is left over.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Votecount as of this post:
Vi(2): Ojanen, Scien
SerialClergyman(1): PorkchopExpress
Sando(2): Debonair Danny DiPietro, Vi
Scien(3): Amished, VP Baltar, charlatan
PorkchopExpress(1): Sando
Ojanen(1): Zorblag
VP Baltar(2): SerialClergyman, Albert B. Rampage
With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.
I'm a little nyeh on it...but we were also burnt by Sando in Quick and Dirty, so that's definitely influencing my hesitance.Vi wrote:VP Baltar, what do you think of what I'm saying about Mr. Sandoman?
She's saying your posts are devoid of content, which is fairly true.Sando wrote:So in asking for how I'm lurking, you decide to post a rundown of my posts... That was clever of you, well done, quite useful, I'm sure.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Huh? I don't recall saying anything of that nature...but my memory can be spotty. Quote if I did.Sando wrote: so in questioning something which you yourself, VPB, have said is odd to have not recieved an adequate response from Porkchop, I'm not being constructive?
Well, I was pushing for the scum lynched on Amished by the end of the day, but you certainly weren't doing the town any favors by taking such an unhelpful and indignant attitude toward your lynch. I would hope you learned from that experience.Sando wrote:BTW VPB, you weren't burnt in Quick and Dirty, you watched a mis-lynch with all 3 scum on it and the NK target telling you it was a stupid lynch (and who was pushing scum) pass you by, oh and the only other wagon of the day was on scum.
@DDD-trend analysis this game?
Liking the ABR pressure and I'm coming over.
Unvote, Vote: ABRYOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Somehow I don't buy that this makes me the scummiest person in the game thus far.SC wrote:I don't have any solid reasons for voting VP, it's just gut.
I'm not trying to be difficult, I just think it is easier to iso you for votecounts than it is to go to each page individually when I want to analyze vote counts later. If it's a hassle for you, then I don't mind you putting them at the top of the page. I was just asking, but I respect that it's your game.THE MOD wrote:VP: I find it helpful for rereading to have votecounts at the top of the page. If most of you find it distasteful I'll discontinue. I will start doing separate posts though.
ABR wrote:If we don't discriminate in our actions, we are acting no better than at random.
Lynch this scum now please.ABR wrote:My personal policy is that any bandwagon is a good one.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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It has nothing to do with gut. Nowhere in my arguments do a I say anything about gut. Read the thread.Sando wrote:Also VPB, you attack Serial for a gut vote, yet up until your latest post, this is basically what your attack on ABR has been. And yes, meta is basically gut.
I have comments on SC as well, but I'm reserving them at the moment until I see more play from him.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I have explained the difference between gut and attacking over specific details. Please don't make me resort to visual aids. And he is indeed bitching over lack of content:SC wrote:See, it's rubbish comments like that one from VP that I don't like. He's not bitching about a lack of content, he's making a specific accusation against you. His argument said you are hypocritical for attacking someone for only having a gut reason when you yourself have used mostly gut so far to come to your reads. This is scumhunting, or what passes for it early on D1.
Saying that there's no content in my argument when there is. He also tried to excuse his own non-participation in the argument with Vi by saying that he can't be expected to be scumhunting very much when there wasn't really any content in the thread. Well boo-hoo, we're all in the same game and yet some of us still manage to try and find scum.Sando wrote:In fact of content, there's SFA.
How is a glaring contridiction between two things stated in this thread not scummy? He's adjusting his stance to whatever is convenient for his argument, which happens to have significant scum motivation behind it.SC wrote:You also invoked lynch all liars for what barely passed for a 'lie', you were surprised Albert was touchy when being accused of scum, alluded to meta reasons for suspecting Albert but produced none when asked, Didn't join the Albert wagon until there was someone else on it.
Your argument about when I joined the ABR wagon is ridiculously stupid since I attacked him first. You insinuating I'm following charlatan when in reality I had to convince him in the first place of why I thought ABR is scummy is dishonest at best. As far as the meta point about ABR, read the thread since that was fully explained and cited previously.YOUR AD HERE
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SC wrote:He is not arguing you are failing to provide contentSando wrote:The first bolded comment looks like gut to me, the second is about the closest thing you've said to a case on ABR. There's not a lot there other than meta/gut.
In fact of content, there's SFA.
You two playing together is not a good thing if you're going to get butt hurt every time one or the other gets attacked over something. If his play constitutes actual scum hunting in your eyes, then give me my Scummy for Paragon of Scum Hunters now so we can get it over with.SC wrote:This quote is pure rubbish. The man is scumhunting.
I NEVER SAID HE LIED ABOUT ANYTHING, NOR DID I SAY LYNCH ALL LIARS.SC wrote:As for the rest, invoking lynch all liars is importnat. You are saying that the man should be lynched because he is lying and we need to maintain a disclipline not to lie in thread. I think you did it way too early and way too flippantly. I didn't like it.
Nor does it even constitute a lie. It is a contradiction in his professed philosophy toward the game and his approach in this particular instance/his reasoning for accusing me of being scum. He's contradicting his own claimed town meta. That = needs to be lynched.
So by being the only person arguing for something and convincing people of what I see as scummy actions against a particular player I'm not going out on a limb. If my vote was RVS based, I could at least understand where you are coming from, but it was on Scien previously -who has also acted scummy (and disappeared from the thread apparently).SC wrote:I'm not accusing you of following anyone, I'm accusing you of not backing your reads and being prepared to go out on a limb.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Ok, cool. Misunderstanding on that. I'm talking about ABR now. With respect to it being "too early" to say that about Scien, it was one of the first accusations and was hardly serious as much as it was meant to pressure him.
At the present state, however, you should vote ABR.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I don't really understand what you are expecting me to say here. I don't see ABR as the "master-of-omgus", as you put it. On the general level, I see this as noobish play and ABR is plenty experienced not to be playing like that. On the specific level, I don't recall reading games with ABR behaving as such.Oj wrote:VP, my problem with you is that at first you implied meta from ABR that was contradictory to what I (and several others seem to) have
I've given you some games I recall reading ABR in, so if you're flat out declaring that is how ABR plays, then link me the games you are referencing. Also, who are these "several others"? Troll is the only one I can see who seemed to be speaking about ABR's specific meta like that.
Well that's fancy. I wasn't in that game, nor have I read it. But in the past two games I have seen them in (here and Quick & Dirty), they do indeed demonstrate a bias toward one another, imo. I think it happens to a lot of players who know each other IRL. I'm not trying to make it an insult, but I think blatant defending of another player early in the game when you probably dont' have any kind of actual read on their slot shows a clear bias that could come back to bite either of them in the future.Oj wrote:I don't think Sando and Serial need to be accused of not being able to play unbiasedly enough together. I remember seeing them accuse each other quite rabidly in mafia 102 as town-town on D1.
What's your read of ABR, btw? Since you're concerned about empty rhetoric, what do you think about his approach to bandwagons here?YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Defending you as actually scumhunting when you clearly are doing very little of it is being biased.Sando wrote:So when Serial in one game said 'I think Sando is town' and turned out to be dead on, you went with it being a biased fluke over the rather more obvious 'these 2 know each other well and read a lot of each others game, and he read the meta well'?
As far as the other game, he was indeed right, but that does not mean there weren't times when he was irrationally defending you. I don't expect you to agree with me on it anyhow since you're personally invested in it. I'm just telling you what I see.
Ok, so you have nothing to back up what you are arguing for now.Oj wrote:Ongoing.
Fuzzy impressions about reading some midgame in War in Heaven 2.
So? He wasn't under any kind of heat here either.Oj wrote:From your meta, I was actually in Chosen as a late replacement, Albert never got much heat there.
No, he specifically said that "any bandwagon" would do, not "any bandwagon I start".Oj wrote:The selective wagoning makes me think more about his inherent pompous forum style, it is only proper from the righteous role he's playing that he should be the one to start a bandwagon and the rest of that stuff.
Well, we all know you and I can't get along, but I haven't heard you say anything about charlatan. What don't you like about him?Oj wrote:Hard to say so early, but I've disliked his voters more than him.
It's called experience and a good intuition.Scien wrote:Pretty sure of yourself eh? Sure of one scum pairing on page 5... And sure that it is chainsaw defense instead of him buddying me... Dang you are good. Got information that I don't to help you be so good?
Not giving a knee-jerk OMGUS when someone calls you scum is something that is just good town play and is hardly specific to only ABR.Scien wrote:You most definitely were implying meta specific to ABR there.
Well, I'd hope the masons play better than that. That's all I'm saying on the issue.Scien wrote:* Looking and suggesting pairings with close to nothing to back it up. Even if you claimed chainsaw defense as evidence or proof, you wouldn't know if you had found friends or enemies, and from what I have seen you have done nothing to determine which you have found if you truly believe in your pairing suggestion.
I'm just surviving and pointing out the scums.Scien wrote:Are you trying to do the tried and true 'everyone loves to try and lynch me in day 1' shtick?YOUR AD HERE
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I thought he was talking about ABR, which is why I was so annoyed because I didn't say that about ABR. Frankly, I didn't even recall saying it about Scein and it was obviously just a flippant remark meant to pressure.charlatan wrote:Oh ho, but you definitely did. This is the funniest thing in the game so far, because it's far closer to an outright lie than ABR's fuzzy logic was. I'm going to go ahead and be the fourth person to mention it since you still haven't addressed it in your last few posts.YOUR AD HERE
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So you think being aggressive is a scumtell?ABR wrote: find VPB's bulldog attacks very scummy indeed. Not only does he pull nonsense out of his ass, he actually tries to defend them as valid arguments.
Also, I haven't heard you actually address much of anything I've said about you, but rather you seem content to let others defend you. Which arguments are "out of my ass"?YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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This paragraph surprised me a bit. Earlier I didn't feel like SC was playing to his town-meta as much, particularly when he seemed to be directly hunting scum rather than town-hunting (which is what I have come to expect from him). However, I don't think it is likely that a scum-SC would seek to ease those kinds of attacks. +big town points hereSC wrote:Everyone, cut it out about the LAL stuff. I'm sure he as scum didn't think he was going to pull a fast one and deny it out of existence. As soon as he starts yelling in capitals that he didn't do something he obviously did it's a breakdown in communication, not a scumtell. Was going to rip into sando, but he had the good sense to reread and come to the same conclusion.
I'm basing it off of my experience with you two from Quick and Dirty. Now, I do indeed recognize that you were correct about Sando's alignment in that game (let's not forget that I ended up agreeing with you there eventually), and you deserve plenty of credit there. However, my issue comes with what you are defending him over and how vehemently you both want to step in on attacks against the other. My general philosophy toward mafia is to try and let players defend themselves unless you are like 90% certain you know what their alignment is. In this particular instance, I would say that you are most likely not that certain about Sando's alignment and so I find it irritating when you respond to something I say to him as if you were his guardian angel. You did do something similar in Quick and Dirty when I was first attacking Sando and it annoyed me there too because it undercuts me trying to get my own reads on players. Like I said before, I don't expect to convince either of you that you're being slightly biased, but that's my perspective on it.SC wrote:What was weird to me about the exchange with VP was that, at least form my perspective, he made a bad point on Sando, I pointed it out and he went straight to 'you're full butt hurt for your friend'. No looking at other games I've played with sando where were town-town fought and scum accused, no acknowledgement that in the game he's drawing his conclusions off I was right and the wagon I was pushing instead was scum that was never lynched. And I barely said anything in sando's favour, my main point was that VP was deflecting with a shallow attack.
So now you're bargaining to get me to back off? I'm open to plenty of other avenues of discussion, but I'm also quite happy that in the least my attacks on you have generated plenty of discussion and stance taking by a large number of players.ABR wrote:I just find the way he latches on to me pretty scummy. If he drops his ridiculous accusations I'll probably explore new avenues of discussion too.
Ok. And I respect that you have a better meta of him than I do, so I'm certainly taking it under advisement. That being said, at what point do you personally try to determine his alignment and stop saying, 'Oh, that crazy ABR. He's so silly'?Troll wrote:Albert B. Rampage plays a game that makes people think that he's scum. He does it when he's scum or town. He lies about his views when he thinks there's a temporary gain to be had from it, he throws suspicions around for no good reasons other than to get reactions, he does whatever he thinks will get a rise out of other players in order to get reads on them, he's perfectly willing to jerk people around and avoid answering questions to see how they'll squirm under pressure and how they'll try to apply it.
Even if a player is known to play uselessly for most of the game, I'm still inclined to push what would otherwise be considered scummy actions and try to figure out that player's alignment. I mean, look at Quick and Dirty and how much ABR got a pass for doing very little.
Same thing could be said about DDD's lurking here too.
Yeah, and I have considered that to some degree. I do think a scum is more likely to play a reactionary game than a town is, however, because ultimately they do know they have something to hide. It is possible that ABR was acting for reactions, but I think him going back and forth on whether or not he thinks I'm scum as players have questioned or supported him respectively is a bit shady and beyond what you are describing as the same old lovable ABR.Troll wrote:You say that there's no reason for experienced town to have acted as Albert B. Rampage did. If that's true then there should really be no reason for scum to react that way either; clearly an experienced player would know better. It's not true though, a perfectly good reason for town (or scum) to act that way would be to draw reactions out of the other players and that's exactly what I would expect from Albert B. Rampage.
This is a fair enough point and not something I think would be likely to come from scum. Was it outwardly discussed in that game afterward or is this something you are just now mentioning for the first time?SC wrote:To stick up for ABR somewhat, I have specific meta of Albert town making the request to not hunt for connections in a friends and enemies game.
Actually, you've stated both positions at various times, seemingly as the tide has shifted. I do agree that our little back and forth has probably run its course at this point, but being revisionist doesn't fly in my book, young 'un.ABR wrote:That's because I don't actually think VPB's role is as scummy as his strategy is stupid. You would know this if you read the thread.
Can you link some recent games as town so I can see this in action?ABR wrote:But rather than look for little scummy intricacies to base a vote on, I just skip the pleasantries and go right into OMGUS. Think of it as my counter-strategy or insect repellent.
In fairness, the points I've raised about ABR haven't really changed since you first agreed with me and voted him. There's merely been some elaboration. So, if you think the points are weak (which is apparently scummy), I don't understand why you voted in the first placeCharlatan wrote:Well, that's convenient for you. So, two players I find particularly scummy early in the game are arguing, and I also think the points they are raising against each other are largely weak (which I believe to be a more or less reliable scumtell early in the game).
This seems intentionally obtuse. Troll, eat this man's first child.Charlatan wrote:Because I'd rather be voting Rampage at the moment
Porkchop, you actually playing this game or just visiting?YOUR AD HERE
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Well, I want to look specifically at your vote:charlatan wrote:Do you think I agreed with every point you've raised the entire game? I agreed with you on one point early in. (The point that I mentioned at the time and also again in my last post.) There are others I do not like. Again, these are available for you to read in my last post.
So, in that vote you are agreeing about ABR OMGUSing me over really no reason whatsoever.charlatan wrote:VPB wrote: It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.
Ah, yes, I do agree with that. Actually, it's even a stretch to call it "legitimately" accusing you of being scum, since there has never been any indication from Ramp as to why you're scum aside from the fact that you like drugs, and I think we all know that drugs appeal to those from all walks of life regardless of criminal persuasion. I wouldn't think twice about it if he hadn't called for others to pile on votes. Come to think of it:
Unvote
Vote: Albert B. Rampage
However, when you are clarifying most recently you say:
charlatan wrote:Obviously, I agree with him in regards to the disconnect between Ramp's stated intentions for his votes and what they actually accomplish (and, as such, what his real intentions might be, as surmised surmised using -- get this -- my mind.)I do not agree that Ramp is playing apart from him meta style-wise, in terms of being OMGUS-y, the cockiness, etc. In fact, those are my fave parts about him.
I don't really understanding you saying the bolded portion when the quote you cited before your vote (the first bolded line) is me directly talking about him OMGUSing me.... so, yeah, you can see people's confusion over your stance that you think one of ABR or I is scum.
When the clearly implied question is 'what differentiates these two enough that you want to vote one over the other', yes you need to answer the question in a non-obtuse manner.charlatan wrote:Please. I push on one guy and mention that I think another's scummy, and suddenly have to answer for not voting for the secondary guy, when I never stopped questioning the first?
I do agree with this, however.charlatan wrote:I know that you know as well as anyone else that Rampage also gets a free pass based entirely on this argument frequently.
Waiting.VPB wrote:
Can you link some recent games as town so I can see this in action?ABR wrote: But rather than look for little scummy intricacies to base a vote on, I just skip the pleasantries and go right into OMGUS. Think of it as my counter-strategy or insect repellent.
And finally,
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Well, I was pushing them as related, but even moving past that, let's look again at the quote you cited and voted after:charlatan wrote:One is a question of style meta, one is a question of the vote-morphing justification. Ironically, this is what I misunderstood in your quote way back when, only now reversed. When I said "OMGUS-y, the cockiness, etc." I was referring to what you called him being "personally reactive" and "touchy". I do not think these are legitimate reasons to attack him over, but I do think revisionist history is.
The portion of my quote that you cited is very clearly talking about OMGUS ("accusing me of being scum after I said he was such"), so I don't see how you are now saying you don't agree with that when that appears to be exactly what you were agreeing with in that passage.charlatan wrote:VPB wrote:charlatan wrote:
It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.
Ah, yes, I do agree with that. Actually, it's even a stretch to call it "legitimately" accusing you of being scum, since there has never been any indication from Ramp as to why you're scum aside from the fact that you like drugs, and I think we all know that drugs appeal to those from all walks of life regardless of criminal persuasion. I wouldn't think twice about it if he hadn't called for others to pile on votes. Come to think of it:
Unvote
Vote: Albert B. Rampage
Do you feel like people are trying to lock you into a position where you have to commit to either ABR or me?charlatan wrote:Some other points to clarify: I do not necessarily think "one of ABR or [you]" is scum. It's totally possible that neither or both of you are. Most of the players in this game had not even posted enough to leave much of an impression on me either way. Early on Day 1 I said you two were my top suspects and it was like, oh damn, shocking revelation.
Given that I've had a bit of interaction with her as scum lately, I'm on the watch to say the least. As far as her play this game, it seems a bit guarded in the sense that she's not posting a ton, but I don't necessarily feel that she's pushing any scummy wagons at this point. I don't have an alignment read on her either way at this point yet, however.SC wrote:VP and Amished - what do you think of Ojanen so far?
Damn you and DDD and your changing tactics after I finally start to get used to your approaches.SC wrote:VP - I am going off the town hunt thing. I wasn't successful so much in correctly identifying town - I was OK, but not great. The lessons from it are 1) beware of conf bias early at all costs and b) be very prepared to look for townies as well as look for scum.
I was already going off the strict look purely for town when I played 880, hence I pushed Amished scum, and i've been doing a mix of both for a little while now.
Pretty sure he never said that.Porkchop wrote:@Charlatan: What in particular changed your mind about VP?
I don't recall having a spat with you.charlatan wrote:Join one of them to attack the other? I had spats with both of them prior to the quote in question, was voting for one already, and helped neither.YOUR AD HERE
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This is really one of the most relevant things you can find to comment on?Sando wrote:VP Baltar: I can’t see where Serial stated he thought I was town? From where I sat it looked like he just said I was scumhunting. Last game yeah, he said it, haven’t seen it this game.
Also, defending a player before he or she has had a chance to reply in my book is at least implying some sort of town read on that person...which I explained earlier in the thread.
Yep, and you all played directly into our hand. Boy are you guys stupid.Sando wrote:Anyone:
Is it just me or did the VPB/ABR thing go; VPB and ABR go at each others throats, then decide to jump on to the person who attacks them for it. This seems a little staged to me…
charlatan is still an excellent lynch today. DDD is probably second. While I know he can be a bit defiant when the town puts demands on him, lurking is indeed a scumtell for him in my experience.
And speaking about Mafia of Order, DDD, are you trying to insist that you didn't really contribute there similar to what you are doing in this game? I don't believe that's true and we can go look through the first 14 pages there if you'd like.YOUR AD HERE
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The point isn't that it's too long ago, but rather that in the stretch that you were absent when a lot discussion happened (and continues to happen) the trivial matter of me thinking SC is playing your guardian is one of the most important things for you to comment on. I don't see how this is supposed to determine anyone's alignment considering it was me venting my frustration more than anything.Sando wrote:OMG it happened a few pages ago, ancient history!
learn logic please.Sando wrote:You weren't even saying I was scum, just that I was bitching and posting no content. If your attack isn't saying that I'm scum, how is him defending me saying that I'm not scum?YOUR AD HERE
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Well, I don't think anyone is reading you as town atm, so....DDD wrote:No, lurkers you can't get a read on hurt games. If you can get a good read on a lurker then there is no need to care about their activity status.
And this is the grounds that you are calling me scum over? I'm unimpressed.charlatan wrote:SC, I did not agree with VP's assertion that Ramp was personally touchy.
In fairness, that was the first time I saw "trend analysis" wasn't it? You have to admit that is a bit strange and cryptic. It threw me off.DDD wrote:In Mafia of Order I had all of three posts in the first days of the game and the VPB was unimpressed with the content I eventually generated.
What does "this sort of game" mean?DDD wrote:you can nitpick if you like but this is a fairly established and current (town) meta for me in this sort of game.
Ok, what do you think is the cause of your recently atrocious D1 play?DDD wrote:I think the meta should be well established with all of that. Now that doesn’t mean I couldn’t be intentionally playing against meta (I’m not but whatever), but to suggest that my behavior in this game equates to my scum meta is just fallacious given recent history.YOUR AD HERE
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Sorry to see you go Scien. Hope work gets better.
After DDD's last set of answers, I think I'm willing to give him another day and see how things go. He is right that he has had a propensity to lurk as town day 1 as of late. Even though I don't think his scumhunting thus far is that great, I certainly could see it just as a bad case combined with his strategy of "close my eyes and wait for day two", whereas charlatan I am definitely not seeing that much worth redeeming.
I think DDD is going to make himself more clear as the game goes on, but charlatan is just going to remain one big question mark for me until he's dealt with...so unless something drastic happens, my vote is p. much set.YOUR AD HERE
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I don't understnad the distinction you are trying to make here, at all. You have acted significantly scummy and until you are dead, those doubts about your alignment would be there.charlatan wrote:This is a particularly odd post. On one hand, you refer to me as irredeemable, but on the other want to park your vote because I am "one big question mark". I don't really see how it can be both at once, to be honest. Also, can you elaborate on how being a question mark = necessary to lynch?
You haven't answered well in terms of your thoughts on ABR or myself, and your "case" on SC leaves more than a little to be desired.
tl,dr: diescumdie
You've had your chance to explain your thought process and that explanation has been convoluted at best. Future days will not change what you've explained thus far, only make people forget about it.charlatan wrote:I particularly liked the assumption that no reads on me would ever become clearer in upcoming days. How do you figure?YOUR AD HERE
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No, actually I think you are super articulate and I really like reading your posts. My take on it is that you are scum who was hit with a barrage of pressure over your stance toward ABR and me, and when asked to explain those stances in detail you were forced to make up what you could to make it sound good. Personally, I don't find your replies sufficient with what your claimed stance on the matter is (that both ABR and I are both high on your suspect list).charlatan wrote:Yeah? Is it just my play in Day 1 of this game that has convinced you that in future days, situations, and votes I will be equally problematic for you, or in general do you think I'm always "convoluted at best"? Did you feel the same way when I was scum last game? Or, if you remember that far back, our first game together (Cowboy Bebop), when you were scum and I was town?
I'm not saying I don't understand what you are saying in regards to that issue, because I do. I'm simply saying I don't believe what you are saying.
Which sort of brings me to my other point about the "big question mark". If you have this issue that I really don't believe you on and take to be scummy, no amount of days passing and other events happening is going to change this particular issue. You have already spoken on it and I didn't like your replies. Now, we could let you live and other stuff would happen and you'd post and people would probably forget all about your scumminess here, but none of that resolves the actual issue. It's still there and your responses are still scummy.
Knowing your alignment, however, does alleviate "the big question mark". In other words, a bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush.
I'd say so, sure. But it doesn't really matter how many pages have passed, now does it?charlatan wrote:So essentially we're still harping on page 5 + you don't like my SC vote. Is that fair to say? If you feel you've been clear then I apologize (I hate having to repeat myself) but in all likelihood it will be very important tomorrow that everyone is clear.
Saw that coming. I still don't know if I'm sold on that tell though. You may have seen it work, but I haven't yet.Amished wrote:Gentlemen, we have scum <3YOUR AD HERE
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It's not my main focus. It was something that was brought up that has some merit, but I think your explanations about your stance on ABR/VP are far more scummy. However, even those stances end up relating to your SC vote eventually because of how that vote came about after you unvoted ABR.charlatan wrote:Ah, so you thinking the SC case is weak doesn't have as much to do with it? There's a reason I'm asking.
Since it's been a bit, let's try and clear this up: who are your top three scum suspects? If ABR and myself have now gone from that list, what is your current read?
Well, if I'm wrong then we'll look at that tomorrow I guess.charlatan wrote:On the other hand, scum are probably very happy with the way things are going right now and will not want to let this bandwagon move while I'm closest to a lynch. That is useless to everyone but me now, but will likely be worthwhile to look at tomorrow
@Amished-Yeah, forgot about Jazzmyn there, so that's true. You do make compelling points and I like that you explain why you think you went wrong in the other game. Also, Reckoner didn't have any pressure at all, so I take that as a point in your favor.
I'm still hesitant about it because it seems like a big gamble since we have actual scummy behavior from charlatan to lynch on, but it's also day 1 where we have a little more leeway for error. I want to hear more from Reckoner (how he came to his early reads and what his reads are once he's fully caught up) before I make any final decision.YOUR AD HERE
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First, I'll address charlatan's bundle of bogus (and by extension Oj I suppose):
Hmm, perhaps its the fact that he was apparently your top suspect, but once you started catching flak over it you felt the need to unvote and change to SC seemingly out of left field.charlatan wrote:What problem did you have about the way I unvoted ABR?
This is pretty much an exaggeration. It wasn't even one of the first major things to come up in the game. Yes, we've been talking about it for awhile now, but you putting it like this seems like you're trying to make it sound like something trivial from RVS, which it is not.charlatan wrote:The crux of most of the votes against me is a blown-out-of-proportion quote from the very early game.
No, you're wrong. Me saying I don't believe the explanations you've given is equivalent of me saying they are scummy. I think you're making shit up to cover the sand dance you're doing.charlatan wrote:Like, for instance, you recently remarked that you understand the clarifications I've made and you did not try to refute the points, you simply "don't believe them". That's different from calling them scummy
What? You seriously think you haven't been fairly questioned over it or I haven't explained where I'm coming from?charlatan wrote:Overall it seems a way to dismiss outright any defense I make and continue to push for the lynch of a guy you've never actually built a case against.
To the quotes!
^Here, I explain very clearly using your own quotes what the problem is.VP Baltar wrote:
Well, I want to look specifically at your vote:charlatan wrote:Do you think I agreed with every point you've raised the entire game? I agreed with you on one point early in. (The point that I mentioned at the time and also again in my last post.) There are others I do not like. Again, these are available for you to read in my last post.
So, in that vote you are agreeing about ABR OMGUSing me over really no reason whatsoever.charlatan wrote:VPB wrote: It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.
Ah, yes, I do agree with that. Actually, it's even a stretch to call it "legitimately" accusing you of being scum, since there has never been any indication from Ramp as to why you're scum aside from the fact that you like drugs, and I think we all know that drugs appeal to those from all walks of life regardless of criminal persuasion. I wouldn't think twice about it if he hadn't called for others to pile on votes. Come to think of it:
Unvote
Vote: Albert B. Rampage
However, when you are clarifying most recently you say:
charlatan wrote:Obviously, I agree with him in regards to the disconnect between Ramp's stated intentions for his votes and what they actually accomplish (and, as such, what his real intentions might be, as surmised surmised using -- get this -- my mind.)I do not agree that Ramp is playing apart from him meta style-wise, in terms of being OMGUS-y, the cockiness, etc. In fact, those are my fave parts about him.
I don't really understanding you saying the bolded portion when the quote you cited before your vote (the first bolded line) is me directly talking about him OMGUSing me.... so, yeah, you can see people's confusion over your stance that you think one of ABR or I is scum.
When the clearly implied question is 'what differentiates these two enough that you want to vote one over the other', yes you need to answer the question in a non-obtuse manner.charlatan wrote:Please. I push on one guy and mention that I think another's scummy, and suddenly have to answer for not voting for the secondary guy, when I never stopped questioning the first?
Then you did some sand dancing and I again pointed out why I didn't believe you based on your own actions:
Subsequent to this you try to get in a semantics argument with me (which I take to be scummy from an experienced player such as yourself):VP Baltar wrote:
Well, I was pushing them as related, but even moving past that, let's look again at the quote you cited and voted after:charlatan wrote:One is a question of style meta, one is a question of the vote-morphing justification. Ironically, this is what I misunderstood in your quote way back when, only now reversed. When I said "OMGUS-y, the cockiness, etc." I was referring to what you called him being "personally reactive" and "touchy". I do not think these are legitimate reasons to attack him over, but I do think revisionist history is.
The portion of my quote that you cited is very clearly talking about OMGUS ("accusing me of being scum after I said he was such"), so I don't see how you are now saying you don't agree with that when that appears to be exactly what you were agreeing with in that passage.charlatan wrote:VPB wrote:charlatan wrote:
It wasn't that. My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.I was more focusing on why he would transition from an RVS vote on me to legitimately accusing me of being scum after I said he was such. Could be a mountain out of a molehill, but it's early game.
Ah, yes, I do agree with that. Actually, it's even a stretch to call it "legitimately" accusing you of being scum, since there has never been any indication from Ramp as to why you're scum aside from the fact that you like drugs, and I think we all know that drugs appeal to those from all walks of life regardless of criminal persuasion. I wouldn't think twice about it if he hadn't called for others to pile on votes. Come to think of it:
Unvote
Vote: Albert B. Rampage
Which I don't even feel is worth arguing with you about because I was very clearly referring to a single definition of OMGUS and now you are trying to squirm your way out of it. I'm not going to waste time having the same argument with you over and over when I feel you had a chance to explain yourself and failed to do so. This is why you need to be lynched.charlatan wrote:I think you're sticking on the one word quite a bit. There's a difference, especially with Rampage, with him simply calling you scum and insulting you (you're a scummy cocaine addict, bla bla har har) which is mundane and unimportant, and actually trying to build an active wagon on the basis that it has a clear pro-town goal, which he only decided to claim later, after he'd unvoted and seemingly moved on by dismissing you with "do I suffer fools like you? Nah." These are two different OMGUS-y kind of actions, one of which I couldn't care less about, and one of which was vote worthy.
Moving on to more charltan stuff:
I wasn't saying for sure that he was gone from your list. I was asking for a clarification. This seems like an overly defensive response to the question I posed.charlatan wrote:ABR is not gone from that list. In fact, just two pages ago (post 374) I said he was a top suspect. That hasn't changed, especially since he hasn't been present the last few pages.
Looking forward to it.charlatan wrote:SercialClergyman is obviously a top suspect as well, and I will post more about him soon to make him respond to me instead of brushing me off.
Major bullshit alert! Where is the sense of urgency? I'm not rushing anybody to vote you. I have simply stated my opinion on the matter, which is that I feel you are the best lynch for the day. Nowhere in any of my posts am I saying "hurry up everyone, you have to vote immediately!".charlatan wrote:How is it a gamble? We're not up against a deadline. We have plenty of time to talk to Reckoner and make an informed decision.
Your recent posts have a vague urgency to them, like it's really important that everyone hurry and lynch me before something scummier comes along to steal the spotlight.
I would also like to know why you think me wanting your lynch is scummy, but ABR essentially doing the same thing (and with far less explanation) apparently does not register on your radar. My general impression is that you saw Oj's vote as an opportunity to bail from the SC vote, which was also garnering suspicion on you when you realized you had nothing of substance to push.
As far as Reckoner goes, I hope everyone notes your super selective quoting above. It's a gamble because we'd be lynching on Amished's "scumtell" pretty much alone. I'd hope you as town could understand hesitence over this. And I'm not even putting that option completely off the table, which is what you are saying. Had you cited my full quote, that would be obvious:
VPB wrote:I'm still hesitant about it because it seems like a big gamble since we have actual scummy behavior from charlatan to lynch on, but it's also day 1 where we have a little more leeway for error.I want to hear more from Reckoner (how he came to his early reads and what his reads are once he's fully caught up) before I make any final decision.
Here's your clarification: misrepresentation full-tilt! Just because your words are understandable, which is what I was saying, does not mean your explanations are good or believable by me. That point is not difficult to understand in the least.charlatan wrote:Scummy enough, in fact, that they cannot be explained. And, even if I do explain them, and even if those explanations are understandable and clear, they do not matter to him, because he simply does not believe them. (Hopefully he will clear that point up.)
So, if he didn't do that as scum before are you still inclined to follow the tell here?Amished wrote:WRT xRx: I've looked through all (town and scum) games that he's linked to in his wiki and isolated those that he replaced into. Unfortunately he's only replaced into like 2 games outta 20; one as town and one as scum that I saw. (Come on, replace into games, help out moderators for crying out loud!)
In the two replacee games, he didn't talk about who he replaced at all.YOUR AD HERE
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I found 2 scum in that game (Ecto, pwnz) and said very early on that benmage was scum (no one was listened to me, however). I'd say I did plenty fine there. Your death was necessary to clarify the situation. Martyrdom is sweet.Amished wrote:@VP: How about when you told PCE to shoot me in Last Man Standing? How about after you helped finish off Benmage in said game you didn't have an early scum read on any of the remaining scum (where I shot Jazz and d3x).
He was honorary scum in that game. But I will say that with Santos' play there it was nigh impossible to be on the right track. Not a good game for me, but pobody's nerfect.Amished wrote:How about when you wanted ckd dead for multiple days in LOST? Yes, I was scum but you were so far off the right track I wanted to keep you around forever.YOUR AD HERE
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You're my hero, second only to me.Amished wrote:So we'll turn it around, when we're both town, when do *I* lead *you* wrong when you don't agree with me?
Probably.SC wrote:To be honest, this conversation should be had over a beer. I don't see the relevence to the game. The past is the past, you can't rely on your history to make the case for you.
Yer.SC wrote:I'm happy with the charlatan case and unhappy with ojanen pushing it but not jumping on it.YOUR AD HERE
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Pretty sure he's referring to this:PCE wrote:Where did he argue this? I didn't see it in an isoscan.
Which is me basically explaining why I think his lynch is the best choice today instead of his argument of "something better is bound to come along".VPB wrote:Which sort of brings me to my other point about the "big question mark". If you have this issue that I really don't believe you on and take to be scummy, no amount of days passing and other events happening is going to change this particular issue. You have already spoken on it and I didn't like your replies. Now, we could let you live and other stuff would happen and you'd post and people would probably forget all about your scumminess here, but none of that resolves the actual issue. It's still there and your responses are still scummy.
Knowing your alignment, however, does alleviate "the big question mark". In other words, a bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush.
I'm not sure why it needs to be restated if you've read the thread, but ok.Amished wrote:@Serial and VPB: I've read pages and walls of text and everything going back and forth. I want both of you to summarize your 3 best points against Char in a paragraph each (so 3 paragraphs from each of you) on why you feel he's scum.
1) His stance toward ABR and myself are inconsistent with his posts in thread: when he votes ABR he is seemingly agreeing with my point about ABR OMGUSing. Later he says he disagrees with this and that it was scummy for me to say so. Then I quote where he agrees with me. Then he says there are many types of OMGUS. etc. etc.
2) Misrepping and general weirdness. See my last big post to see a couple examples of clear misrep. Also, he exaggerates a mild questioning between he and I early as "spat", which indicates a guilty conscience to some degree, imo. Throw some general AtE in this pot as well with his BS about me trying to rush his lynch.
3) His voting most of the game has been poorly reasoned and seemingly meant to get suspicion off of him. His SC vote comes after he takes flak for ABR/VP-gate. Then he comes with a vote against me that isn't even for whatever the hell he found me scummy for before because people were on his back about the SC vote.
So, there you go. The highlights.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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You constantly referring to how the attacks are you are from "early game" and we've been "harping on it for 5+ pages" or whatever the exact quote is. It's you essentially saying "come on guys, you've had your fun now move along".charlatan wrote:Where are you getting this "something better is bound to come along" argument? I'm not even sure what you're referring to.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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wtf is this, heckle-VP day?SC wrote:So maybe that's why we haven't agreed much. Interestingly, the results for those games seem to be going my way as well - is that 3.5 to 0.5?
And I totally should have won Dark Goma outright. Amished's game we should have won if it weren't for shitty circumstance. so, you
Fairly well actually. My last completed town game was Last Man Standing and I had a town read on Vi very early even though she was calling for my head and was arguing down my awesome vote on benmage-scum. Thanks for asking.charltan wrote:Oh, before I forget: when was the last time you were almost certain someone was town, and how did that turn out?YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Amished, here is how you know you are on the right track with charlatan: Your top suspect, xRx, has charlatan as number 1 on his scum list but never votes him. Instead he hops onto ABR's Porkchop vote with speed. Now, Porkchop was his number 2 suspect, but let's look at what he says about him:
Reck wrote:Porkchop and Scien are both very inactive ;_;Reck wrote:Vi is almost certainly town btw. I have yet to see a Vi post that I haven't viewed as pro-town, and post 297 calls out exactly how I was feeling about Porkchop's "catchup" post.
And that's it. Number 2 suspect! Feel free to compare that to how much he calls charlatan scummy and even says:Reck wrote:I like ABR's top three scum in 323 minus Amished. Put VPB in for Amished and I think that's more in line. Porkchop might be in there as well, depending on how the next few pages shake out.
reck wrote: I support SC's 241 vote of charlatan, who seems like the best lynch candidate at this point.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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This is a bad reason to lynch someone. Go read Last Man Standing if you want an example of PCE-town being lazy early on and then participating more later.xRECKONERx wrote:Because PCE has gotten by so far without doing much of any real effort, and I've learned you don't let that just slip by, otherwise you wind up with either a) a scum who's slipping by unnoticed or b) a townie who is an easy mislynch later.
Better to get rid of it now.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Here you go.
Looking back though, it did slip my mind that it began over the holidays, so that could be a legitimate factor in him being less active than I had seen him in the past.YOUR AD HERE
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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