Mini 914 ~ Mafia Reverberation (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

Hello everybody. Confirmed.

[SerialClergyman]

I played with a similar mechanic and we figured if we could get two confirmed townies, then everyone else could sit there voting each other so everyone bar the confirmeds are at 1 vote. Then wait for the incant countdown to happen. If anyone bucks the trend and saves their buddy then they're auto lynch the next day.

A + B confirmed town.

C votes D, D votes E, E votes F, F votes G, G votes H, H votes C.

Gg'd.

Still - need the confirmed townies. Luckily, Vi has a well-known love of cops so I'm sure there will be one or two around.

[SerialClergyman]

Now we learn Serial has been very lazily skimming and so didn't know he had to choose a colour.

Colours especially suck for Serial because he's Australian and we spell the word with a 'u' in it, which means my tags fail constantly

Cos all my other tags are always perfect

I'll go with

the lighter form of red

and I'll

incant Spyrex

for fail traps when VP is a zombie murderer.

Your ability is special, right? Oh it's not? That's crazy.. what could the explanation be? Oh wait, you changed your mind, it IS special! *phew*, for a second there I thought you might be scum of some kind... /harsh ribbing meant in fun

[SerialClergyman]

Yes, you are correct, at that scale it relies on a sort of 'who gets the last vote in according to the clock' which isn't fun/mafia.

However, as Spyrex says you can do multiple lynches.

Are we sure that scum have a NK? Obviously if they do then multiple lynches is uch better for town because the ratio of townkills to scumkills gets better.

[SerialClergyman]

I did think of you, trawling for a breadcrumb you had zero chance of finding... I actually played a game with VP where there was no kill N1 and my JK breadcrumb was 'I think Ojanen is either REALLY scum or REALLY town but I don't know which.' I patently suck at breadcrumbs.

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that after the first day it moved from being a 'mass claim' to an 'AWESOME CLAIM!'

Then I died and the first thing you bastards do as my corpse cools is mass claim. /wrists.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh that's right, we're playing a game and not just chatting.

*focus*

Yes, this is true. In the game with similar mechanics I was killed as scum when the townie who was being lynched deadline switched to me, making us both have 3 votes out of about 10. So apathy can make the game really, really swingy.

It's also not uncommon to see wagons that get huge, which makes wagon analysis harder. The first lynch was on scum and had 10/12 people on it or something similar.

So in a way, information is less available, or at least should be seen in a different light.

[SerialClergyman]

Hey, lets purge Porkens and not tell him why.

incant Porkens

[SerialClergyman]

Nope, no parody. I just want to have votes on you without really explaining it for a little while.

That'll stick it to those V/LAs who are missing the fun.

COME ON SPYREX, OMGUS THE BASTARD

[SerialClergyman]

Trust VP to go along proudly <3

But I'm going to ditch you. Sorry mate. Welcome to come join me on the next one:

unincant Porkens, incant Sotty

I say to lynch Porkens without telling him why, I say that again on post 65 when porkens asks me if it's real and then in post 67 you ask why Porkens out of everyone.

Go along with it or don't, but asking the question again after twice being told the answer reeks of cautiousness to me.

Wagon ho!

[SerialClergyman]

I knew my raw sex appeal would get you onto oneo f my wagons sooner or later.

[SerialClergyman]

omg jealousy.

I don't even know what it's done

but I'm immediately jealous.

[SerialClergyman]

What's with the name beng crossed out on the votecount as well? Anyone got any clues there?

I'M DAZED AND CONFUSED.

YOU UNVOTED AND LEFT A VAPOR TRAIL. ~Vi

[SerialClergyman]

Anyone get the feeling that Spyrex just put on his wizard hat and robe to Sotty?

[SerialClergyman]

Thanks Vi!

Delete my quadruple post if you wish, I thought bash reference + thanking mod were both acceptable reasons to spam.

"bash reference"? ~Vi

[SerialClergyman]

Vi:

bloodninja

I'm still confused. AFAICS, Spyrex has doublevoted Sotty, yes? Is it permanent? Is it garunteed town? What does a reporter do?

[SerialClergyman]

I just

read

re-read the rules and I'm not sure that's correct Spy. The reporter's win condition says if their death means the town wins then they lose and exit the game (meaning town wins, yes?)

[SerialClergyman]

For reference:

(Reporter) You win if you are alive when #### unique abilities have been confirmed to exist in the game - either by using them yourself, receiving them as investigation results (via Third Eye, for instance) or by public moderator confirmation (Doublevote, Condemn, Prominence, Luxomancy, Dissolution, Vindictive Being, Liquid Being, Inverse Lyncher Penalty) - at which time you will leave the game. However, if your removal from the game would cause the Dark Win Condition to be fulfilled, you will exit the game and lose.

[SerialClergyman]

Sup Jahudo. Can you parse this bit of code and come up with the following conclusion?

Serial is catching my eye with his fluff:scumhunting ratio already, but then I remember its only page 4 and we've got several people who haven't done anything yet. So that might be more townish since it keeps the thread active.

Serial, scummy, neutral or town?
Porkens scummy, neutral or town?
Sotty scummy, neutral or town?

wagons - any of them good?

[SerialClergyman]

Just to be clear - you're saying I'm scummy because I jumped off my Spyrex vote, which you'll recall was for his fail traps when dealing with zombie murderers, to then move on to actual scumhunting.

And your asking 'why Porkens' wasn't essentially the same question as 'for what reason are you voting porkens'.

Honestly guys, this case is making itself. The only reason I'm still typing is because I'm trying to break this keyboard before the warranty is due. There should be no need for any further action except incanting Sotty.

GO GET IT DONE!

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry Sotty, there was no agreeing from me. Allow a little context to fill you in:

Just to be clear - you're saying I'm scummy because I jumped off my Spyrex vote, which you'll recall was for his fail traps when dealing with zombie murderers, to then move on to actual scumhunting.

And your asking 'why Porkens' wasn't essentially the same question as 'for what reason are you voting porkens'.

Honestly guys, this case is making itself.

why = for what reason. They have the same meaning. This passage is summing up your position and then finding it utterly lacking.

Your position has improved somewhat with your latest content post, and it points out that porkens was voting Spyrex, so that's something, but still, you're suggesting that the two people voting you are scum together, and I have been doing crazy shenanigans to pull attention off spyrex who was

9 incants away

from getting purged. Which is patently ridiculous.

I didn't notice Spy was the leading wagon, I still couldn't tell you what for (can anyone?) my vote was never serious on him, he was miles away from any serious pressure and the idea of me (or anyone playing as scum) going to such lengths to protect a mate from zero pressure is ludicrous.

I'm going to give you an out. Will you admit now that your theory was a little bit reactionary, a little bit OMGUSy and in the cold light of day he probably wasn't under the sort of pressure you initially thought he was?

[SerialClergyman]

VP, the case being weak or unconvincing I can handle (why do people talk about 'stretching' 5 pages into a game? Are they expecting QED?) but in what way do you think I've misinterpreted Sotty?

[SerialClergyman]

Hello, I've been very busy, sorry for not being here as much.

The reason to vote porkchop was twpfold, firstly he was scummy due to his lack of scumhunting intent, but the more important reasoning was that he would be the most susceptible to early pressure based on his first few posts. He asked if this was a theme game off the bat, which was an odd question given the rule post and the PM invite. He played the 'it could be all too confusing for me' card and talked about using simple scumtells in other games. All in all, the picture he was painting was one of the easiest to test with pressure.

But all in all it's just 4 pages in getting the ball rolling play. I didn't really get to divine much about Porkens because Sotty's question really stood out to me. Her OMGUS-y reply labelling her two voters as scum due to a bizarre protect-and-switch play at all of L-9 was only confirmation that my vote was where it needed to be.

[SerialClergyman]

O Great Wizard Spyrex, are you still on board the Sotty wagon out of choice or apathy?

[SerialClergyman]

The only thing missing from Jahudo's point earlier was an incant, which I've been patiently waiting to see if he'll make. I'm very happy to see he has done so.

Anyone voting zoraster can now mention why aside from vagueries posted earlier, please.

[SerialClergyman]

I've actually just watched the game, despite being Australian. AND we don't even have Superbowl commercials, so I had normal crappy Australian commercials.

I'm not sure why I should move my vote off Sotty, to be honest. I haven't commented on zoraster because I think it's a wagon based on very little (intentional lurking is barely a scumtell). Sotty didn't answer the strong point about her conflicting views at all well.

Jazzmyn gets points for squeezing a category for her reads in between town and leaning scum called 'town/leaning scum'. You put those kids in their place!

VP should know better about my town meta, but I'll forgive him because he's pretty.

I've played a few games with Sotty and believe her to be an excellent player, so her activity is not much of a factor in my vote, more her style. Jazzmyn either intentionally or not missed the point - she asked a question that had been answered twice previously. This is not good, questioning town play. It might be her as town, but it's as good a lead as any.

I tried to get to understand the zoraster case, I even asked for reasons earlier, but few concrete have been provided. In my opinion, it's always worth being suspicious of cases where someone explains what someone else meant. For example:

I didn't like his entrance (post 6) saying he’s excited to play, ending with "please don’t hurt me" as his subsequent lack of participation doesn’t jibe with his professed excitement and his "please don’t hurt me" is out of place and sounds like a "I’m not very good at this, guys" pre-emptive plea/excuse for future use

For example - this is Sotty's first post:

Basically there is no excuse for lurking in this game. Not that there should be lurking in any game, but there you go.

I think this looks like she's scum setting up the fact she's going to go after easy target lurkers, and by saying it early it looks like she's being all protown when really she just wants an easy lynch. The second part looks fake to me - why say there should never be lurking? I think she's pushing for town points.

See what I mean? It's all drivel. You can do it to just about anybody. All zoraster said was that he's excited to play the game and I reckon he probably is.

No - worst case so far goes to Sotty with a terrible Spy/SC theory that has since ditched Spy because he's obv town. That's concrete.

Of the most interesting other players so far:

Jahudo - made a good observation about Sotty, then eventually voted, then unvoted and hasn't revoted after signalling a possible shift to the MO wagon. That's certainly unusual.

Spyrex is town. Hello Spyrex!

VP has actively defended Sotty from just about everything thrown at her. Is this conscious, or have you just treated every argument on merit?

[SerialClergyman]

Answer the question 'Why Porkens' without giving reasons for the wagon.

[SerialClergyman]

Games in which as town my activity is much lower than average early:

with VP in /inv 4, where he was scum and actaully attacked me for lurking D2 [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewt ... your power
No frills mafia.

Games in which I as scum have had low activity early:

None.

Games in which I as town have tunnelled early:

Quick and dirty with VP
No frills mafia.
GIF mafia
Hambargarz

The game Hero talked about is here:
Amished Mafia

Sotty, I've also played with you in semioldguy's game where you did very well as scum in a very difficult position.

The game you bring up, Webcomic Wars I did indeed tunnel on a townie as scum, but I was 100% convinced he was the enemy scum because our night kill failed on him the night before. You can see that by the mafia QT, a link of which was posted in game.

However - I will freely admit to tunnelling on people as scum in at least one other game. But the meta attacks so far have been:

a) You are less active
- I've been low on activity as town early before and never as scum.
b) You are tunnelling
- I've done that often as town and scum.

I think I can essentially prove those just by games I've played with VP, which is why I was so insistent he should know better. Plus he's in another game with me and knows I haven't been posting much recently (you can all search me, down spike in activity over the last week ro two).

I'm not typing all this up to say how town I must be (self-meta never works on proving townliness), just that bad meta attacks are bad.

There have been a few odd arguments floating around.

If you see a weak wagon start and yet it quickly grows to a sizeable number, who is likliest to be scum on that wagon? Is it more likely that scum started the weak wagon and town all sheeped their way on without thinking about it, or is it more likely that town started a wagon and scum jumped on the wagon?

Your reason for voting Porkens was "he was easiest to test with pressure".
Sotty says "why porkens out of everybody?"
You say "best target for thing I'll explain later" or "for something I find scummy" or "something and this is not a random vote."

Nope, no parody. I just want to have votes on you without really explaining it for a little while.

Finally - I have tried to look at Zoraster, I asked for a decent case and explained why I thought what was presented was poor. I'm not convinced on Sotty but I've got nowhere else for my vote to be. The second best option is Jahudo, who is giving me Ojanen-esque scum vibes.

Jazzmyn - my point was that putting words in people's mouth is not

good

scumhunting. As I showed with my facetious example, it's possible to take almost any sentence from any post and 'analyse' it in such a way that shows a scum motivation for it. It's just not convincing. Something like Jahudo's voting record or Sotty's Spy/Serial case doesn't depend on interpretation - they're both just there, concrete. I don't see much of anything in the case against zoraster other than that sort of analysis and the lurking charge.

[SerialClergyman]

knew I should have previewed. Sorry about the first bit failing tags. Should read:

with VP in /inv 4, where he was scum and actaully attacked me for lurking D2 [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewt ... your power
No frills mafia.

[SerialClergyman]

I forgot one last meta thing:

He's been calling Spy obvtown too hard

Happily, this is a very common feature of my play (scum and town). I'm very vocal about town reads and trust them more strongly than my scum reads. I even spent a period of games where all I did on D1 was look for townies and was prepared to lynch anyone who I couldn't directly state was town. Spyrex and VP have definitely seen my keenness for town-calling up close.

[SerialClergyman]

VP -

Also now is the time to Unincant, Incant: Serialclergyman for playing completely against his

normally active

and questioning town meta.

That's what I interpreted the bolded section to mean, I could have misunderstood.

Plus I was correctly accused of lurking around when I wanted to see if Jahudo would vote after making his point against Sotty. So activity has come up with regards to me being scummy.

I absolutely do tunnel, especially early. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong but it's hard to shajke me off a case I think is decent. And 'don't tunnel' isn't useful - you need a better case to go TO if you want to not tunnel. That was the whole point of me trying to uderstand the zoraster case.

Anyway - Hambargarz is probably my absolute worst tunnel, so check that out. No frills and Quick and Dirty were both tunnelled but both on scum. If you need more then I'm sure I have them around. Oneo f the major purposes of the looking for town experiment was specifically to try to cut out that kind of behaviour. (The other, incidentally, was to be more active on D1 lol).

[SerialClergyman]

I'd respond to the lyncher stuff, but I'm not sure what I can say other than I'm not the kind of player that would be that direct. If I were a lyncher, even if I got Sotty lynched ina desperate attempt, I'd still have to survive the inevitable repercussions the next day, which doesn't seem like good strategy. The key to a lyncher is survival, in my opinion.

But more importantly, it seems to me to have an easy solution, if you think I'm a lyncher just don't let me on the wagon. I'd be happy if my suspects are lynched with me on the wagon or not.

[SerialClergyman]

Porkens, I like you. I even derailed a frivolous bandwagon on you earlier taht some chump started.

But I'm not getting your play. We have 3 wagons, all at L-4. Some of them are attacking each other, some not. You're sitting off to the side saying that you're cool with lynching any or all of them. I couldn't tell why you wanted to lynch those specific three other than they are currently the leading wagons, what it would mean if one or some of them were scum, I don't see much desire to differentiate between the group.

So what's the haps? Where do you want this day to go from here?

[SerialClergyman]

VP, why me?

[SerialClergyman]

You gave meta reasons for your arguments, I answered them in what I thought was a very thorough way yesterday and then you said you wanted me lyched, which seemed strange. I hadn't realised you were yet to confirm the meta issue.

You did, but when I started answering it I didn't see much of a game-related purpose to it. I'll paste as far as I got:

VP - You could consider all sorts of things a failure. I think it taught me a bit about mafia, and that while my town reads are good they are not perfect, even when I'm being conservative. They also taught me how to play from a base of low political capital, because different = suspicious. As for tunnelling, it's hard. I can't just drop a case because time has passed, or because I *should* look elsewhere. I tend to argue for the person I want lynched and while I definitely change my mind, I need something better.

And like anything with mafia, tunnelling is a nice neutral way to chainsaw defend someone. I don't know. I'm still thinking about it. I like experimenting with my playstyle.

I'm not quite sure I like how the narrative of this game is going. The main suspects for lynches are the various parties in my little wagon on porkens then switch to Sotty play. Everyone else seems to be settled in with popcorn without getting their hands dirty. I'm tunnelled, apparantly, which means I'm not considering other people's scumminess. However while a lot of people are psyched to say tunnelled, very few are psyched to show me a case where my vote should be instead, or a direction I should be looking.

Sotty - I like my vote on you, it's a good D1 vote. I'm certainly not convinced you're scum, I've only got 15ish posts by you to make a decision. I'll move my vote if and when there's a better target. There are others I think are scummy, but none at your level at this point in time.

[SerialClergyman]

The analysis of 3 lynches was pretty spurious.

The real thing to ponder is how important is lynching with iformaion compared to accepting night kills.

If we lynch 3 people now, then we'll start tomorrow with 8 people left, effective lylo if 3 scum and they're still alive.

If we lynch 1 person now and 1 person tomorrow, we'll end up with 8 people left, effective lylo if 3 scum and they're still alive.

The difference between the scenarios is that in the first there are 3 'town-decided' kills to 1 'scum-decided' kill, compared to 2 town and 2 scum. On the other hand, in the second scenario our second lynch happens after two flips, so our informational advantage is significantly higher for that one kill.

I don't know what to do about Sotty's claim. It has me pondering a massclaim. Either way I'm thinking I probably shouldn't be voting her.

Incant Jahudo

[SerialClergyman]

VP, I've voted no less than 3 people early in this game too. I've also done easily as much 'probing' around other people in this game as I had in the games listed.

Apart from that, what can I say? You're wrong. I was as tunnelled there as I am here. I changed my vote from Sotty because she claimed double voter, not because of any pressure you or anyone else put on me (hence the whole resisting the pressure when first called on being tunnelled.)

The Webcomic example I had role based information to believe Percy was scum. We had an NK-immune member and he had mysteriously survived a NK attempt, so we assumed the scum teams were symmetrical. I obviously don't have any role-based info here.

But aside from that - say I was a rival faction - then I would be simply scumhunting my rival faction. I'd have no reason to be more or less tunnelled than any other time. Is it your opinion that if I was scumhunting my rival faction I'd be more likely to tunnel than if I was town hunting the scum?

Hmm. I don't like this from you VP.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh, I was also saying that accusign osmeone of tunnelling is a good way of chainsawing.

You're attacking my buddy and not letting go so I'm saying you're tunnelled. Doesn't address the argument, but calls your buddy's accusor scummy and invites pressure to get them to move their vote. I don't know/think this is happening here, but it's in the back of my mind.

[SerialClergyman]

1) re: tunnelling accusation = chainsawing - I don't necessarily think that's happening here, I was just explaining my thoughts earlier on why I tend to not mind so much when people accuse me of tunneling, why I don't think it's that much of a problem. I don't particularly think you're scum with Sotty.

2) You have at least conceeded two town games where I was tunnelling. There has been one scum game mentioned where I tunnelled, but

on someone I genuinely thought was scum

. What makes you think that my actions are more likely to come from scum?

[SerialClergyman]

Jahudo's posts read excellently but his voting pattern doesn't match. It's too slow, too focused on current wagons and just doesn't do it for me. As I think I said earlier, it reminds me of when Ojanen is scum.

[SerialClergyman]

Spy - what do you think of Sotty's claim?

[SerialClergyman]

Who actually properly wants me lynched and why? At the moment the most verbose case has been VP, which as far as I can tell says 'I have one game where you as town tunnelled and no games as scum where you tunnelled and since you only had one obvious target in the first 300 pages you're scum.'

Moar please, if you've got it, little minions of evil.

Nikanor's style change looks disaffected and won't give reasons for actions but his voting is genuine.

Spyrex - I'd be suspicious of you stragercouging me if you weren't clearly town.

Sotty - what was the reason you claimed to have a double vote?

[SerialClergyman]

If I had to guess right now, I'd say Jahudo was scum due to dodgy votes, Jazzmyn was scum due to suspicious posting patterns and fluff and I'm not sure about the third. Could be you or porkens.

[SerialClergyman]

I don't think scum would claim in that scenario.

[SerialClergyman]

What's with 'use meta arguments to get SC lynched' today?

Jahudo, even in the quote you posted you'll see that I'm not using the 'focus on town alone' strategy for this game.

Also, this meta does not fit with this game:

I'm very vocal about town reads and trust them more strongly than my scum reads.

I even spent a period of games

where all I did on D1 was look for townies and was prepared to lynch anyone who I couldn't directly state was town.

He seemed to really trust a single scum read by page 4 of this game.
]And he hasn't acted like he's prepared to purge anyone he hasn't directed stated was town.

The bolded is a key point - that's not my strategy this game.

Hasn't said zoraster is town, just that he doesn't like the lurker case on him. Seems like he's neutral on Nikanor. Hasn't commented anything about Hero, MO or Rhinox.
So what are you hiding, SC? Your reasons for thinking some people are town, or your meta?

I don't get this. If I haven't mentioned someone it's because I don't have a read on them. When I've thought people are town or scum I've provided reasons - if you're missing some just ask.

As for a massclaim - This time I COULD self-meta in defence but I've been doing enough of that so lets go with arguing on theoretical grounds. At the moment I think we have two town power roles exposed. This means that for the next two kills, scum can have two excellent night kills. We also don't gain very much from their exposure. So if scum are already garaunteed to NK a power role, why not massclaim and get some info out of it and force scum to lock in their claims early?

Now - the argument against is that doublevoters aren't exactly the sexiest role (despite being POWERFUL WIZARDS) and exposing a cop, say, essentially means we lose much more power than we would have otherwise. This means I'm probably against it but it's worth considering.

[SerialClergyman]

Spyrex, I'll switch to one of the leads if you'd like to switch to the other.

VP, you stopped suspecting me yet?

[SerialClergyman]

incant Mighty Orbots

Your wish is my command, style-digger that ye are.

[SerialClergyman]

I would have voted Rhinox if Spy had chosen MO to vote. Consider me half and half between them.

You didn't say you did, I was just hoping sense would dawn on you, like dew on the buffalo.

[SerialClergyman]

I'd lynch Rhinox to save my arse but not gamma. I've actually liked his play, especially the careful attitude towards getting people to cross vote (if I'm one of two people on L-1 ready to be lynched, isn't it in my best interest as any alignment to hammer the other person?)

Extra double voter claim is odd. Spyrex still town, Sotty less so but I still like the time she claimed. I'm not sure scum would have stuck their neck out. To be honest, kind of the same with Zorblag, but then there was also by that time the obvious fact that keeping it to yourself only to crack outl ater would raise questions.

[SerialClergyman]

but an intelligent

maf

player of any alignment will hammer at L-1 instead of allowing himself to be lynched with the other guy.

[SerialClergyman]

This is a fair point. Shall we all agree anyone hammering when they're at L-1 and an intended double lynch will 100% be lynched immediately the next day?

[SerialClergyman]

We needed to discuss this?

Apparantly. I'd totally hammer someone else in self-preservation unless I had a strong town read on them.

[SerialClergyman]

Shit.

Spyrex, I've just woken up after a night shift of captioning the Olympics and apparantly the deadline is now. Tell me where to put my vote and i will.

[SerialClergyman]

incant porkens

for now

[SerialClergyman]

Well, as I've said, a triple purge just isn't safe. If it's going to hit scum then they just purge someone who isn't scum instead. It's worse with a double voter.

Wait, what? How doesn't this apply to a double voter? And if they do purge someone who isn't scum, then we'll only have one lynched person and we have 1 guraunteed scum...

[SerialClergyman]

I like 'Scent Of A Woman' and all, but what makes this particular blind driver vote sotty?

[SerialClergyman]

I'd worry about outguessing a mod like Vi. She didn't have to claim when she did.

Number two is your best argument, I think.

Activity? (looks at gigantic stretch of spy and zorblag posts)

[SerialClergyman]

!? Cool @.@

At certain times my employment is totally awesome, yes.

I'd go hero on your gut, buddy.

[SerialClergyman]

Gammagooey is my second of 2 town reads. I'm not voting him. I'd prefer sotty/rhinox.

[SerialClergyman]

Hero?

[SerialClergyman]

Vp, do you mind switching so you're not on my lynch?

[SerialClergyman]

I'll vote myself, but if I do that and was scum I could unvote last second.

But I won't, cos I'm town, so go ahead.

[SerialClergyman]

Wow.

VP votes tomorrow kids!

[SerialClergyman]

GG guys, well played. Baltar fail.

Spyrex gets my MVP, well played, well read.

[SerialClergyman]

No worries Sotty, we were both wrong (although I corrected in game )

I just think it shows a good respect of each others' skill.

VP on the other hand is just bad Standing by a meta read that was out and out wrong lol