Mini 914 ~ Mafia Reverberation (Game Over!)

[Jazzmyn]

/confirm

[Jazzmyn]

Incant: zoraster

I would like blue, please.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Cyan is a good

FF6 character

color

Sure, it's a good colour...if you like being stabbed in the eyes.

Ouch.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

This game appears more complicated than other games that I have played, so I might not twig to all of the possible permutations immediately, but I'm looking forward to trying to figure them out, and looking forward to learning.

I like the potential for multiple purges to the extent that it could mean lynching more than one scummy player as opposed to having to choose between two scummy players, which is often the case in games with 'regular' mechanics. While I think that we have to be cautious about multiple purges because scum could take advantage of the multi-lynch potential to push separate wagons against townies simultaneously, I am inclined to think that overall we can use the multi-lynch to our advantage so long as it is utilized carefully.

I also like - very much - that the Game Mod frowns upon lurking and that the game has a relatively short activity requirement, as I really dislike lurkers and would change the site-wide mindset about not lynching lurkers if it was up to me. I am of the view that lurkers suck the life out of games and that the mindset against lynching lurkers gives far too much opportunity to scum to fly under the radar. So, I am hoping that this game, with its short activity requirements and its being non-friendly to replacements, will encourage everyone to participate actively and regularly.

Of course, no sooner than I say that, I also have to say that I will be out after work tomorrow (Wednesday) evening and do not expect to get home until quite late (midnight-ish) so I may miss a night there but, generally, I am home and able to get online on weeknights after 7 p.m. EST and on weekends at various times during the day and evening. (This site is blocked at my office, so I cannot read or post during business hours on weekdays).

Also, I'm not familiar with some of the terms used in the GM's opening posts or some of the abilities described, or Spaceballs™ which is referenced a few times, so I'm going to go and do some investi-Googling to see if I can make some sense out of the parts that I don't understand.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It looks like the Moychandiser role is a cult recruiter, who probably would also have the Marketing ability which looks like a random powerrole enabler. They both have that Spaceballs theme, which is a Mel Brooks spoof of Star Wars.

Thanks. That makes sense, and it conforms to my investi-googling results from which I found that Spaceballs™ is a parody/satire movie that is pretty funny (based on the several short clips I watched), and that the merchandising/moychandizing references in the game thread's OP come from that movie. Clearly, I need more lowbrow humour in my life.

But I still don't get how that movie relates to the rest of the OP or this game overall, so I'm guessing that it's a one-off and that I'm not intended to understand it.

My investi-Googling, however, has not been very successful in figuring out some of the other terms and abilities referenced in the GM's opening post, so I'm still somewhat baffled. And I can't make any sense out of the multiple zombie and wizard references by players either.

So, for now, I think that I just have to accept that I don't get it and treat this game more or less as a normal game and hope that I can figure out the parts I don't understand as the game evolves.

Also, I can't make much sense out of the Sotty7 wagon being as large as it is. She seems to be one of the more active players so far, and I don't see anything with her posts/scumhunting. There isn't much to go on yet, but at least she's actively hunting, which is something I personally find difficult in the early stages of a game, so I'm not going to criticize her for it.

Am I reading the Reporter stuff properly in concluding that a Reporter win =/= a Darkness loss? In other words, a third party whose win does not mean our loss, but a parallel win? If so, then I don't see any harm in Spyrex revealing his doublevote ability as he did when he did.

I'm going to re-read the game this afternoon or tonight, so more later.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@VP, the reason I believe double-vote would be more likely to be scum is that it could be used to save a buddy from getting lynched. If there were a tie and both town and scum were going to be lynched, a mafia could double vote under the guise of suspicion on another player instead of it being a direct save of their buddy.

But with the lynch mechanism as it is - i.e. that all players who reach the necessary purge level will die - if there was a tie and both town and scum were going to be purged, doublevoting for a third player wouldn't save the first two from getting purged, it would only potentially cause the third player to be also be purged, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

What are your thoughts about people and cases right now? Do you agree or disagree anywhere? Anything noone else has considered yet?

I do not yet have any really solid bases for great suspicion so far, but I also don't expect to get any really solid bases for great suspicion on Day 1. That said, I'm getting bad vibes from zoraster, BloodCovenent, and Mighty Orbots, but it's nearly all based on "gut" rather than on substantive evidence. I'm also suspicious of those on the Sotty wagon because I just don't see any legitimate cause for it. Her posts have not been scummy and her wagon looks contrived to me.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

EBWOP: I hadn't seen BloodCovenent's last post when I posted my last post, so I might have to reconsider him.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I apologize but my work in real life has been exceedingly busy these past few days with hard deadlines, and great pressure to meet them, so I have not been able to give this game the attention it deserves. On the up side, things will improve by the end of business tomorrow (Friday) because by then the deadlines will have been met, and I will have lots of time after that and over the weekend, during which I intend to re-read this game from the beginning, do a thorough analysis, and post my thoughts, reads and observations, along with answering any outstanding questions directed to me.

Again, my apologies, but I

will

get back into it in full swing this weekend.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I'm back, refreshed, relaxed, and ready to get back into this after a hellish week.

I've made an adult beverage, torn up my game notes and am starting afresh, re-reading the game now and should have my new summaries up tonight.

Meanwhile,

Unvote

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I literally fell asleep at my keyboard last night while writing my new game notes. I started from scratch, as mentioned, and went back to the beginning. This will be long, so I'll break it up into a few posts and then a tl/dr version afterwards.

Juls/Herod: I was not getting any good vibes from Juls while she was in the game and had her in my neutral/leaning scum column, as there wasn't much content, I didn't agree with her Spyrex vote, and she was voting one player while calling a different player scum. But since Herod replaced in, that has changed to a solid town read. He has made lots of good points about multiple purges, asked good questions about role reveals and how they affect a Reporter, has provided good info on his reads, has pointed out things that I missed, and I agree with him that the advantages of single-purging do not outweigh allowing the scum one kill per purge (if they can kill). The only thing I find myself disagreeing with him about is that he concurs with Jahudo about Sotty being hypocritcal about MO, while I don't see it that way. Town read.

Jahudo: Lots of good questioning and scumhunting, a nice pick up on Porkens agreeing with MO about multi-lynch while voting Spyrex for advocating multi-lynch, good questions to MO about their hydra account, provided useful info to me about Spaceballs and such. I agree with him about seeing Spyrex's double vote as pro-town, and I agree with him about SerialClergyman's fluff:scumhunting ratio being poor. There are lots more points upon which I agree with Jahudo, and only a few where I don't. Early on (66), he asked Rhinox if Rhinox thought that Juls used AtoE in her vote, which would be fine except why ask Rhinox instead of confronting Juls herself if he thinks that Juls was doing that? I disagree with his defence of Porkens re: using the newbcard when he says he took it as a joke, because although I could see the first one as a joke, I think that using it twice was suspicious. Minor, and Jahudo said he based it on meta, so probably no biggie, but the defence is still noted. Overall, I am very impressed with his posts, observations, and questioning, his noting of disingenuousness by (the former) BC and zoraster, his catch of MO switching from one lurker to another, etc. But as with Herod above, I disagree with his take on Sotty being hypocritical about MO. Town read.

Mighty Orbots: early post (51) discussing multi-lynches and pointing out some of the other potential roles that could come into play was not bad, but then post 68 discussing the hydra account and being worried about it opening up the two of them to attacks sounds like pre-emptively trying to excuse later attacks, i.e., to blame it on the hydra rather than scumminess, though it is further explained later (73), but not terribly convincingly, in my view. The "WTF did you just do?" question to Spyrex in 93 sounds contrived, since it was blindingly obvious what Spyrex had just done (double voted), although asking why Sotty is a legitimate question. Still, the first question sounds like 'playing dumb', which I find scummy. No problem with him calling out zoraster for lurking, even though zoraster wasn't the only one at the time. But the response to zoraster's entry post was to call it fluff and use a jokey tone in defending himself that sounds false to me. I also don't like his post (204) response with all the 'amirite', lulz, Scumzor, anime smiley, ohnoes stuff - that kind of thing reads to me like scum trying too hard to be jokey. Leaning scum.

More to follow, so that this doesn't turn into a wall of text.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Nacho replaced Blood Covenent, who had no content at all and replaced out at 153 but his explanation sounds legitimate and sincere, so no scum points for that. Nacho came in at 171 voting zoraster for his first post being lazy and his post being fluffy, but Nacho's own entry was just as lazy and fluffy, so that's hypocritical. I'm not sure if I'm following his train of thought in his post about multi-lynches (190) where he says that "scum would be forced to defend their scumpartner instead of raising an alternative wagon on a townie". If we multi-lynch, we are creating multiple wagons, and scum could still raise one on a townie, right? Nacho, can you please explain if I’m missing your meaning here? I agree with him on zoraster needing to post more (as do I, I know, I know), but he still hasn't commented in any depth on most players. His comments so far are pretty superficial. Neutral/leaning scum.

Porkens: The first newbcard didn't bother me; the second one did as it sounds more like "I don't know much about roles beyond the basics" which scum might say to cover up the fact that they actually have a complex role. It might be innocent enough but coming from an experienced player, it bothers me. He jumped on the Sotty wagon saying Spyrex is town because he wouldn't have doublevoted Sotty at that time if he was scum, which is weak, especially since Spyrex said he would actually do that as scum, and ostensibly because of Sotty’s "reaction to her wagon" and "flailing", neither of which seem legitimate to me. Then, he voted Rhinox without giving any reasons, saying "Just feel that, we could lynch them both... mmmmmm that sounds not only good but also sexy to me" which is not only cryptic and kind of silly, but also, there were two competing wagons at the time, one on zoraster and one on Sotty, so (a) who are the "both" he's referring to, and (b) how does leaving one of the competing wagons to jump on a third wagon achieve whatever his goal is with this post? Then, his last post calls for players to direct their votes a certain way in order to lynch zoraster and Sotty, right after he's moved his vote to Rhinox. That seems very not right to me. Leaning scum.

Rhinox: I'm not getting a real strong read on Rhinox one way or the other. Some of his posts make me think he's town and others make me think he's scum. He entered the game saying he had not read the thread, which is fair enough because he was V/LA at the outset of the game, but he also said he hadn't even read his role PM. I cannot imagine popping in to post in a game without even reading my role PM, so I find it suspicious that he claims not to have done so. His early posts aren't bad, I agree with him about Porkens and the newbcard, he confronted Juls' scum read on him asking appropriate questions, and it's pretty hard to defend against a "gut" read so I can't really fault him there. But later he says that he doesn't do town lists or scum lists, which is pretty unhelpful to Town but pretty good cover for Scum. I agree with him about Nacho's entrance to the game, and he added to the discussion about whether or not to multi-lynch with some points worth consideration, but I disagree with his conclusion; I think 2 purges today would be a good idea. I agree with him about not lynching zoraster today, as a result of zoraster's recent post about lynching him alone if we were inclined to lynch more than one player, which moved zoraster over from my scum column to my neutral/leaning town column. Neutral/poss third party?

More to follow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

mod: why was jazzmyn allowed to unvote?

Clearly, because she is a GREAT WIZARD!

_{(Or maybe because the front page says that an unvote gets treated as a no-purge.)}

That's one strong beverage!

More than one, actually.


As is probably obvious, my summaries are in alphabetical order. I'm going to go out for breakfast before continuing, but I'll put up the rest of them in a little while.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Serial Clergyman: He voted for Porkens and asked others to vote for Porkens without giving reasons, and then no sooner than someone obliged (VP), he moved his vote to Sotty on the basis that she asked "Why Porkens?" and on the basis that she was "overcautious", which strikes me as bizarre. Asking questions is a good thing, not a bad thing, and asking for a reason for a vote is hardly "overcautious". He then refused to answer the question for the longest time, despite several requests. His "I'm confused" post (88) looks like nothing but filler fluff since the questions he asked are easily answered by just reading the opening posts of the game. In his post 99, he responded to Sotty's 96 but it struck me as disingenuous when he wrote that asking "Why Porkens" is not the same question as "why are you voting Porkens", followed by "Honestly guys, this case is making itself. The only reason I'm still typing is because I'm trying to break this keyboard before the warranty is due", which just rubs me the wrong way. I see that he later clarified the first part of that post, saying that he was not saying that the two questions were different, but the way it was worded initially made me think he meant the opposite, so I'll disregard that one. I do agree with him that Sotty was over-reaching to find a connection between Spyrex and him, but Sotty's logic was sound, even though the evidence was slight, and overall, Serial sounds to me to be trying too hard to justify his vote. Then, his post 175 in which he asked Spyrex if he's still on the Sotty wagon "out of choice or apathy" struck me as an odd question, primarily for its timing, because between that post and Serial's previous post, BC had replaced out, zoraster had been called out for intentional lurking then re-entered the game, Nacho had replaced in, Juls had announced her departure, and zoraster had amassed quite a wagon, surpassing the one on Sotty, and yet Serial didn't comment on any of those events at all. And since then, he's made one further post, without commenting on most players or events. Leaning scum.

Sotty: I've played with Sotty a few times before and her play here matches what I have seen when she is Town. Lots of good questioning, good responses to pressure being put on her, strong scumhunting. I agree with her position on purges (i.e. doing 2 purges at first and seeing where that gets us). There isn't much she's written that I disagree with, and while I do think she was over-reaching regarding a Spy/SC connection, as I mentioned above, there was logic behind it even if little evidence, and it was early enough in the game that one wouldn't expect more evidence. Plus, she readily admitted that she might have been talking about teams too early in the game. I'm having a hard time seeing why so many people are (or at least were) sold on a Sotty lynch as I really just don't see it. She's among my strongest Town reads.

Spyrex: He started talking early on about multiple purges, which is fine, but I wouldn't support more than 2 at this point, for reasons earlier expressed, and also because I think that too many purge wagons at once would permit anti-town players to spread themselves among competing wagons while still being on lynches, thus making it more difficult to figure out which are the scum. E.g. On a normal 1-lynch-at-a-time wagon, the scum typically don’t want to be all on the same wagon even though they really want to lynch, because they have to distance from each other or else later wagon analyses are more likely to flush them out. However, if there are multiple lynches at one time, all of the scum can contribute to a lynch wagon while not being on the same wagon, which may provide them with extra coverage. Still, I think 2 is a good number because (as noted earlier by Herod) the advantages of single purging do not outweigh the risk of allowing the scum one kill per purge, assuming they can kill. I have to say, though, that I am uncertain what Spy's current stance on multiple purges is as he has advocated multi-purges, mass purges, 2-4 daily, and 2 per day at various points. Spy: what is your current stance on this? I agree with Spy's point that multiple lynches keeps control in the hands of the Town vs. in the hands of PRs or scum, but I'm just not clear on how many per day he currently thinks is optimal. As for the doublevote power, I don't think that's necessarily indicative of town or scum, but the timing of it on Spy's part makes me think he's more likely town than scum (i.e., he let us know early on that he has the ability), but using the double vote that early and without much to go on is a bit reckless in my view, since he can't change one of his votes, and needless to say, I don't agree with his choice of target. That said, Spy did explain his vote on Sotty in 114, and made good logical points and good questions in his 131 regarding Juls vote on him. I understand why I am on his list in post 187, and can't fault him for that, since I got off to a slow start in this game. I disagree with his desire to lynch zoraster, Sotty, and Rhinox today because (a) I wouldn't support more than 2 purges today, and (b) none of those three players would be on my top 2 list. I don't understand why he would absolutely not lynch MO, Porkens or SC today. Spy: please elaborate on that. Neutral.

More to follow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

VPBaltar: I found myself waffling a bit on VP as I reread the game, sometimes thinking he's town, sometimes thinking he's scum. I liked some of his early posts, but not his following SC's call for voting someone without reasons, and then saying that there was a valid reason without saying what it was. And early on, I thought he was kind of fence-sitting on Sotty (post 115). But his jump over to zoraster was justified since he had knowledge that zoraster was posting elsewhere while not posting here, and he made a good catch on Porkens' inconsistency in 183. I agree with him about Porkens' use of the newbcard as mentioned in my summary on Porkens, and I like that he went to the trouble to re-read the posts to review the Sotty wagon. At first, I thought he was just posturing about that because he was asking others to tell him about it instead of rereading himself, but then he went and reread himself, so +town points there. I am wary of him because I know that he has a reputation for being very skilled at looking town when he is scum, but my overall read of him is leaning town.

Zoraster: I didn't like his entrance (post 6) saying he’s excited to play, ending with "please don’t hurt me" as his subsequent lack of participation doesn’t jibe with his professed excitement and his "please don’t hurt me" is out of place and sounds like a "I’m not very good at this, guys" pre-emptive plea/excuse for future use. After he got some votes for lurking (while actively posting elsewhere), he came in at 156 and made an excuse that does not sound very believable to me. His first substantive post was pretty light on content; although he did give a few reads, there wasn't much meat on the bones, which suggests to me that he started posting just to try to shake off some of the votes against him, but isn't doing any real analysis or reading in great detail. I disagree with his stance on conducting only 1 purge at a time, but he also said that he feels strongly enough about not conducting multiple purges that he would rather he be the sole purge to avoid risking a second purge, and that sounds to me more like something a townie would say than something a scum would say. I realize that since I got to that point in my new notes last night, others have said that they have done something similar as scum, so I might have to reconsider that but my initial reaction was that it was more likely to come from town than scum, so I moved zoraster from my Scummy column over to my Neutral/leaning town column. However, I haven't been impressed with his subsequent posts, so I'm going to further shuffle him to the left to my Neutral column.

And that completes my summaries for now. I'll post a tl/dr version and my choice for Incanting in a while. This has been an awful lot of typing.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

TL/DR version.

Jazz's reads:
Town: Herodotus, Jahudo, Sotty
Leaning Town: VP Baltar
Neutral: Rhinox, Spyrex, zoraster
Neutral/Leaning Scum: Nachomamma8
Leaning Scum: Mighty Orbots, Porkens, SerialClergyman

I would purge up to 2 of these 4 players today: Nacho, MO, Porkens, SC
I would not purge these players today: Herod, Jahudo, Sotty

Incant: SerialClergyman

_{(Nothing to do with the football thing)}


Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

(intentional lurking is barely a scumtell)

I strongly disagree. [soapbox] I am getting sick and tired of scum getting away with intentional lurking in games because the site's 'conventional wisdom' says not to lynch lurkers just for intentionally lurking. I think the so called 'conventional wisdom' is wrong, wrong, wrong and I really hope that it dies an ignoble death sooner rather than later. [/soapbox]

Jazzmyn gets points for squeezing a category for her reads in between town and leaning scum called 'town/leaning scum'. You put those kids in their place!

I don't know what this means. Please explain.

Jazzmyn either intentionally or not missed the point - she asked a question that had been answered twice previously.

I didn't read it that way at all. I read it as you avoiding a legitimate question.

I tried to get to understand the zoraster case, I even asked for reasons earlier, but few concrete have been provided. In my opinion, it's always worth being suspicious of cases where someone explains what someone else meant. For example:

I wasn't "explaining what someone else meant" - I was giving my take on what someone wrote. You know, reading, analyzing, and coming to a reasonable preliminary conclusion: aka scumhunting.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

VP should know better about my town meta, but I'll forgive him because he's pretty.

I don't think you are playing at all like you did in our last game together, in which you were town.

I don't think I've ever played with SC before. Do you happen to have a link available? (It would be easier than trawling through Google searching since the profile search function here is presently disabled).

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Additionally, pushing the game forward when with a decreasing purge number being a nice bottle for the proverbial scum teat is a OK.

I feel a little bit silly having to ask this, but what does "a nice bottle for the proverbial scum teat" mean?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Wait, what is the scum teat in this analogy? Late incantations? Is this a town tell on SC, or a byproduct?

I asked this of Spyrex above, but from your response here, it sounds like you know the answer, too: what does "the scum teat" mean?

I've actually been looking at SC as a possible lyncher. His play makes more sense as that than scum, because he wouldn't have to survive that long.

I hadn't thought of that. I've never played in a game with a lyncher before so I can't say that I know how to distinguish scum play from lyncher play, but from reading the role PMs in the opening post, I can at least glean that a lyncher certainly could get to his win condition pretty quickly, particularly in a game with multiple purges in a single day.

From the opening post, there is also a possibility that a lyncher has that lyncher penalty attached to his role, which would (just thinking out loud here) perhaps make a lyncher not want to do a whole heck of a lot of scumhunting for fear of pointing out problems with the posts of his 'penalty' players, thus helping to build wagons on them, which, if successful, would cause him to lose the game.

For those with experience with lyncher games, is it the case that a lyncher typically, in the circumstances above, would tend to focus on a small number of players rather than looking at all other players? Or are there tells/styles/clues that one should be looking for to spot that kind of role?

We don't need to purge SC, because I'd rather find the mafia-types. We don't have to keep Sotty alive if we think he's in the mafia.
Thoughts on this?

Does a lyncher typically have to lynch exclusively town or exclusively scum or are his assigned targets randomly assigned? Because if it's typically townies, or even random, then I would just as soon purge both a mafia and a lyncher. A lyncher who has no need to scumhunt and who only wants to push particular lynches to meet his own win condition, heedless of whether his target is town or not, is not really of value, so I'd just as soon not help him attain his win condition.

But if it's typically scum that a lyncher is after, then I would prefer to keep a lyncher around for a while and let him help with actual scumhunting. He can then attain his win condition and help us at the same time.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

No need for a prod. I haven't "disappeared" ~ I just haven't been able to post for the last couple of days. Sometimes things get very busy around here without warning, leaving me without much time to post during the week. I've been able to skim the posts of the last two days in this game and my other ongoing game but that's about it, not enough time to absorb them, analyze them or post anything substantive. I was hoping to be able to do that tonight, but it might not happen until tomorrow night, following which I'll have lots of time on the weekend again. That's just the way it is here sometimes, given the nature of my work; I don't have a lot of control over it.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@All:

My apologies for my absence. I had a skiing accident on Saturday morning when a moron on a snowboard crashed into me from behind and knocked me flying; his board lifted my skis out from under me, and I landed badly, whacked my head and broke my tibia just above the ankle. The fracture was displaced, and required surgery to fix with a plate and pins. I got home from the hospital on Sunday night and asked my beau to contact Vi to let her know that I’d be unable to play for a few days until things settled down as I’ve been fluctuating between being in a lot of pain and being zonked out from pain medication. My beau is going to set me up with a laptop tonight so that I can get online from a prone position because it’s awkward and hard to get comfortable at my desk right now. I hope to catch up on what I’ve missed then.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

That was insane - pages and pages of quickfire posts that culminated in a triple purge in such an unexpected fashion. How many doublevoters are there, for crying out loud? I'm not very happy about it ending with a triple purge becasue that seemed rather reckless and unnecessary, especially on Day 1. That said, I still suspect that SC is scum and that Rhinox is probably a third party, so I suppose it could have been worse, but geez, can we not be so purge-happy tomorrow?

More after twilight ends.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I'm betting our two last scum in Gamma, Jazz, Porkens, and Jah.

What makes you think there are two more scum? Do you know something the rest of us don't know?

I'm suspicious of Spy, Gamma and Jahudo for purging Sotty. There was no good reason for it, and there was no good reason for a triple purge. I don't like the sneaky way VP pulled out his doublevote to ensure a triple purge, but I can't fault him for his target since I thought SC was scum, too.

They can't all be scum, though, and I still have a town read on Jahudo so I'm going to have to think about this some more and look at who was distancing/bussing during the purge before I incant.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

What are people's thoughts on jazz, gamma and myself cross purging each other today?

Do you mean another triple purge? If so, I do not support this. As I sadi on Day 1, I thought it was a bad idea then, and I continue to think that it's a bad idea today. Plus, there's that little matter of you having a double vote and that little matter of you being sneaky about using it, so you're not exactly at the top of my list for trustworthiness when it comes to you suggesting a cross-masspurge.

I personally think that Jahudo, Spyrex and Porkens are all town. I'm less sure on Nacho as other seem to be, but whatevs.

I think that Jahudo and Spyrex are probably town, but I can't say that about Nacho, Gamma, Porkens or you, because you all give me pause for various reasons at various times. Recently, Gamma makes some good points about you; you make some good points about Gamma; Jahudo makes some very good points about Gamma; Nacho doesn't really make any good points about anybody; Porkens perked up during the deadline but he's still scummy for wanting 4 purges on Day 1, without even caring whether they were town or scum. As was pointed out on Day 1, a scorched earth approach benefits scum.

We got lucky, it seems, with a second scum being taken out after the mass purge, but unless and until that happened, we would have been in one heck of a hole today due to the mass purge and the subsequent night kill of another townie.

Personally, I think there is only one scum left anyway.

I doubt that there is only one left. With all of the abilities and possibilities listed in the opening posts, and with the flips we've seen whose now known abilities seem to be in some cases quite counter-intuitive, I wouldn't even begin to try to guess the mod's setup but I would be surprised if there wasn't more than one threat left yet (i.e. SK or other third party).

I think the NK on MO could have come from Sotty's Gepenst.

While possible, that seems unlikely because at the time of Sotty's last posts, MO had 4 votes and was on the verge of being purged along with Rhinox, so it would have been rather a waste of her Gepenst ability to target MO with it at that time.

Regards,
Jazz

P.S. I keep getting a "white screen of death" and my post keeps failing to load. (Yes, white screen, not blue screen - this just keeps ending up with a blank, white screen after endlessly long attempts to load) I've been trying for at least an hour now, but no joy. I'll keep trying in case one of these times it works, but I'm going to fall asleep again soon, so I'll have to continue tomorrow.

[Jazzmyn]

Eh, perhaps, but Porkens always shoots from the hip. How much experience do you have with him?

Next to none. I seem to recall that we were in a game together once, but that's about it.

Yes, but we're not.

Getting lucky once doesn't make it a good idea to multi-purge again. Plus, I just think it's more fun to play the game using the abilities that we have rather than just trying to break the game or turning it into a matter of statistical bits and bytes. Maybe it's just me.

Like I said, I think it was a good shot from Sotty.

I know that's what you've said, but as I've said, the timing doesn't make sense.

What makes you think Sotty was even online at that time?

The fact that she was posting then. As previously mentioned, when she put the 4th vote on MO, that put MO into a tie with Rhinox, so she was obviously aware of that, and had every reason to believe that MO would be purged, thus it seems it would have been a waste of her Gepenst ability.

My guess is that she sent it earlier before the chaos. It resolves at the end of the Incantation phase, so unless she changed it at the last minute, MO was boned for quite some time.

I don't know why you are guessing this, though, and looking at the timing of her votes, that doesn't really make sense. If she had previously sent in MO as a target for her Gepenst ability, it makes no sense for her to have moved her vote to MO at the last minute like she did, since she would have known that MO would die anyway, and she could have left her vote where it was, knowing that both her vote and her ability would count.

The only thing we would need to be worried about is an SK.

That's the thing I'm most worried about; I'm not sure that it's the only thing to be worried about.

<snipped...>

I have to look at the opening posts again in order to analyze this part of your post, so I will come back to it later.

Jazzy gets alot of bad luck. Did you by chance break any mirrors or cross any black cat paths?

Nah, I don't actually get any more bad luck than I do good luck; if luck exists, I think it all balances out overall.

And I think she's either ignoring or not seeing the logic behind purging SC and Sotty the same day.

You're right that I didn't see the logic in it, because nobody pointed it out or explained how it was 'logical'.

Since Jazz was the only one not on board with the idea (b/c she was afk), it looks like she's trying to only help herself by opposing the plan now.

I think I made it quite clear on Day 1 that I would not be on board for purging any of Sotty, you or Herod, and that I would not be on board with purging more than 2 players, so it's not something that I've newly come up with to "help myself".

@Jazzmyn: Everybody was torn between purging Sotty or SC. So if we only purged one and they flipped town, at least half the town would really want to purge the other one next time. Even if one flipped scum, that didn't exclude the other from being third party scum and some people may still see their actions as scummy independent from the pressure SC gave Sotty.

I would certainly understand that if it was the case, but I didn't read that insane time as everyone being torn between purging Sotty or SC. It looked more like last minute horsetrading, with scum having a big fat hand in it. Granted, I wasn't able to be there when it was going on live, so it's entirely possible that I missed something in the translation, but if you could point out what you mean when you say that everyone was torn between those two, I'll gladly look at it again.

More to follow, as I read the rest.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@Jazzmyn, here's the cliff notes for team SC vs. team Sotty.

Well, that doesn't really accurately reflect what occurred, nor does what occurred support your prior assertion that "everyone was torn between purging Sotty or SC" since people were all over the map with wanting to purge players other than Sotty or SC (for instance, you started out saying you wanted to purge MO and SC, later suggested Rhinox/Sotty/MO, later Sotty/SC, etc., while others were suggesting Rhinox, gamma, Herod, etc.), but I don't see that anything really turns on that. But thanks for your summary.

The reality is that the triple purge came out of nowhere, and happened because VP Baltar pulled out his double-vote ability in a dodgy manner, and the result was multiple dead townies by the start of Day 2. We got lucky that someone hit MO before the start of Day 2, but I don't think we should count on getting lucky again.

Jazzmyn and Nacho, can you try to double vote?

I don't have a double vote ability, so this won't mean anything but here you go:

Double Incant: Jahudo

(Not an indication that I think you're scum, just voting at your request)

That's what I think, but Jazz doesn't believe it apparently.

Actually, earlier you said that you thought Sotty had used her Gepenst ability long before the end of the Incantation and that is what I said didn't make sense in light of the timing of her voting. Because it

wouldn't

make sense to move her vote to MO when she did if she had used her ability on him, since doing so would effectively nullify either her vote or her ability.

In any event, the main problems that I have with mass purging are that (a) it ignores the possibility/likelihood of a SK who stands to benefit greatly from a mass purge; and
(b) it reduces the game to a mechanical application of statistical probabilities and doesn't allow us to use the unique abilities that we have been given to root out the remaining scum.

With respect to (a), I think that those who are advocating a mass purge are among the most likely candidates for scum/SK/other third party roles. I'll have to cross-reference that list with the list of those who were advocating Sotty's lynch yesterday to see what that yields.

With respect to (b), I find that a rather boring way to play (and a bit insulting to the game mod, who didn't come up with a unique design and unique abilities only to have the game played as a Math 101 question). I would much rather use the abilities I've been given and play the game than meekly agree to just roll over and die because someone thinks that reducing it to mathematics is the way to go.

That said, if the rest of you are bound and bent on it, there's nothing I can do about it, but I'm not going to pretend that I like it just to appease anyone.

I still haven't quite wrapped my mind around the other potential third party roles, or how a mass purge impacts them either negatively or positively, or how several of the listed potential abilities may be allocated or even existent, but I'll work on that. Not tonight, though, as the men's Olympic hockey game between Canada and the U.S. starts in 35 minutes and I can't miss that. Go, Canada, go!

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I agree with gamma that Jazz shooting down the multi-purge while providing no alternative plan is shady at best.

Except, of course, that I

have

provided an alternative plan: not multi purging, playing the game, and utilizing

all

of our abilities to nail scum, instead of just sloughing things off to statistical probabilities in a manner that assists a SK or other third parties.

I disagree with the rest of your post, as well, to the extent that the last multi purge was not based on scum hunting, but was based upon certain players getting giddy about multi purging just because they could. That is very well evidenced by the posts and by the results.

If it was based on scum-hunting, I wouldn't be so opposed to it, but there is no evidence whatsoever that that was the case on Day 1 and none whatsoever that it has been a consideration on Day 2.

But, like I said, if the rest of you are bound and determined to do this, there's nothing I can do to stop it but that doesn't mean I'll stop vocalizing my opposition to it just to appease others.

And *sigh* @ the result of the men's Olympic hockey Canada v. USA game. Looks like it's up to the women's team to kick tail - again.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I've had a really crappy day. It was my first day back to work since breaking my leg and it wasn't easy by any stretch of the imagination. Then a snow storm hit and my usual 20 minute drive home took an hour and a half and was very, very stressful.

Thus, I'm not in the mood for subtlety, so I'm just going to go ahead and say what I have to say and the rest of you can do what you want.

My abilities are such that they are (a) very useful to identifying any remaining Light team member or SK or other third parties that might be in play, and my abilities are both testable and provable (well, testable certainly and provable if one other player has a certain ability); and (b) quite helpful in another manner as well.

So, that's another reason why I don't want to lay down and die while the town gives the game up to the scum by resort to math instead of playing the game and using the abilities that we have. Because I'm town and I know that my abilities are not only useful, but testable and (I think) provable. I wasn't going to go into any of this but since it appears that you are all bound and bent on purging me anyway, I figure it doesn't matter much.

Also, I'd just like to point out to the town that there are several abilities potentially available to the scum that permit them to pretend to be onboard with getting themselves purged while they could actually avoid being purged, while killing off two townies in the process, so I don't think you should be so quick to buy into the "if I say I'm okay with being purged, that means I'm town" line.

I'd do a three-way with Nacho and Jazz.

Heh - practically everyone I know would like to do a three way with me. But, alas, my preference for three ways involves me, a guy, and another woman, and as far as I can tell, both you and Nacho are male, so that's not my ideal combination. (But you did just make me smile, which improved my crappy day a little bit).

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

By, several abilities you mean.... Luxomancy?

I could have worded that better, but what I mean is that just because someone claims to be willing to go along with being purged doesn't mean that they are aligned with the town. Luxomancy would protect them from a purge, as would Liquid Being, but Condemn, Prominence, Gepenst, and Light Arrow would also put scum in a position to manipulate the results of a multi-purge to their own advantage as well, depending on how many there are and what their alignments are.

More importantly, I'm saying that I think town players are being lazy if they think the best way to win this game is by multi-purging townies.

Most importantly, I'm saying that I know for a fact that some players are promoting a mistaken (either intentional or otherwise) belief about some of the roles that exist. Those who keep pooh-poohing the existence of a SK are most highly suspect because I know for a fact that there is a third party killer in this game, because I know for a fact that Sotty didn’t kill MO. And since nobody has claimed or even hinted at being a town aligned Vig, I'm pretty certain that there's a SK in the game. Which leads me to believe that there are either no more Light Assassins or, at most, 1 more Light Assassin, but there is definitely another killing faction out there, and I don't think it's town aligned. This is what I've been trying to get people to think about without having to claim, but there you have it.

Now, it's intermission between the first and second periods of the men's Olympic hockey game between Canada and Germany, and Canada has to win this to go to the gold medal final, so I'm off to watch the rest of the game. More later.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

A couple of things.

One, don’t you guys realize that the winter Olympics are currently underway here in Canada and I’m Canadian? Thus, certain events (like the men's hockey team playing Germany last night and playing Russia tonight) take priority over just about everything, including work, food, sleep, pain, and yes, even mafia. (Canada won last night 8-2 and won tonight 7-3 and moves on towards the gold medal game while Russia is going home empty handed ~ woot!)

Two, I realize that you all want to purge me, and that’s fine but that being the case, I’m doing this my way so that at least I can provide some useful information and make some final reads on players based on their reactions to my softclaim and/or their slowness to react (which might well be a reflection of them being worried about what I know), so that I can try to help the town some more before I die.

And I THINK what she's trying to claim is that she has Sixth Sense, used it on someone and saw that they targeted MO, and that she doesn't believe that the killer was protown, etc. etc.
<snip>
Jazz, y/n?

No. I wish that was the case, but it's not.

Its not the fact that Condemn, Genpest or Light Arrow in fact don't save the scum (hint: they don't)

in the scenario there is one left.

Gee, maybe that's why I specifically said, "Luxomancy would protect them from a purge, as would Liquid Being, but Condemn, Prominence, Gepenst, and Light Arrow would also put scum in a position to manipulate the results of a multi-purge to their own advantage as well,

depending on how many there are and what their alignments are.

Its, actually, the fact that again we get "I have secret powers and secret information" instead of just laying it out on the table.

I have my reasons for doing this my way, as mentioned above.

seemed like she was saying neutral is 3rd party.

Nope, neutral means neutral. My read on Rhinox was neutral/third party which is different than neutral.

Anyway, moving right along.

I know that there is another killer in the game because Sotty did not target MO on Night 1. She targeted SerialClergyman.

I know this because I have the Sixth Sense ability which I used on Day 1 (as well as the Seal ability, which I have not used). I misunderstood something about the game mechanism initially and thought that I had to send in my choice of ability use early in the Day, so I sent it in early and was not permitted to change it later. (My misunderstanding arose because of a previous Tarhalindur game that I played, in which I was supposed to send my action early in the Day, didn’t realize it, failed to send it in and ended up being killed on Day 1 by a Vig without being able to use my ability, and I didn’t want to repeat that error in this game). Anyway, as a result, I know that Sotty did not kill MO, thus it had to be a third party killer who took him out, and nobody has claimed to be a Dark Eminence aligned Vig, so I believe that there is a SK in this game.

I can only guess that Sotty targeted SerialClergyman around the time that she switched her vote to MO from SC late on Day 1 (because logically that’s the only way I can think of that the result I received makes sense and it also reconciles with her vote change at that time and her failure to return to the game thread after that), but I have no way of knowing the timing of her use of her ability for certain, of course. What I do know is that she targeted SC, not MO. Thus, there is another killer who is not of the Light Assassin team.

So, obviously, my preference would be to use my abilities to try to find the remaining scum and/or to protect any confirmed town, and I think that my abilities are both testable and provable. Testable by using one or the other of my abilities at majority direction, and provable if anyone has Foresight or Third Eye, in which case they could confirm that what I've said is true.

Also,

Incant: Nacho

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Is sixth sense once per game or per incantation?

Once per incantation. Seal is once per game.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

My MAGIC POWERED ABACUS has some problems:

Don't be stupid. I realize that SC was purged. But Sotty also targeted him.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

A Little late, considering you're already purged.

Ah, I hadn't noticed. Oh well. Good luck!

At least you can watch more hockey now

Indeed, and I shall.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Also, kill Porkens tomorrow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Yeah, I totally messed that up. But it was fun!

Cheers,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I blame the painkillers, of course.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Excellent game, all around (well, except for my screw up with the fake claim - I've never fake claimed before, could you tell?) and many thanks to Vi for modding. It was good fun.

Cheers,
Jazz