Mini 914 ~ Mafia Reverberation (Game Over!)

[Jahudo]

/confirm

[Jahudo]

It looks like we have close to three weeks before 7 incants is a purge. An accidental incantation is something to think about, but not much more than regular games.

Incant: VP Baltar

Are you against RVS here? y?

Can Jahudo have green flavor?

[Jahudo]

If the threshold drops to the number of Incants a player currently has, they are immediately purged. This can be used to Purge multiple people at once.

Dropping the threshold seems to bypass a typical rule involving ties at a deadline (that the first player to X votes is lynched rather than both players). We can put multiple people to L-1 and wait a few days.

[Jahudo]

Agreeing with the hydratic post in 51 almost in it's entirety. Most of all with the simple reminder about godfathers and reflectors. We should keep the idea of self-vote block in mind but not really consider it a viable option.

So do you agree with Mighty Orbots stance on multiple purges per day? What about it is agreeable where Spyrex's stance is scummy?

[Jahudo]

@Rhinox, do you think Juls used appeal to emotion on her random vote?

@Mighty Orbots: How are you handling the hydra in this game? Are you using it to split up time? Are you running by ideas or suspicions before you post? Like is there a way to tell if something one half says speaks for the other half?

Also, I'm not familiar with some of the terms used in the GM's opening posts or some of the abilities described, or Spaceballs™ which is referenced a few times, so I'm going to go and do some investi-Googling to see if I can make some sense out of the parts that I don't understand.

It looks like the Moychandiser role is a cult recruiter, who probably would also have the Marketing ability which looks like a random powerrole enabler. They both have that Spaceballs theme, which is a Mel Brooks spoof of Star Wars.

[Jahudo]

Doublevote? I like the timing actually, letting us know he has the power to quicklynch before he gets the opportunity to do it. Seems protown.

Serial is catching my eye with his fluff:scumhunting ratio already, but then I remember its only page 4 and we've got several people who haven't done anything yet. So that might be more townish since it keeps the thread active.

Anyone find it odd porkens is playing the newbcard when he's not a newb?

He has done it more than once but I read it when the same joking tone that I've seen him use in a previous game or two.

Well see, that was actually pretty stupid to do Spy given that if the Reporter role is in this game, you may have just given him or her a first check on the list of roles.

VP, are you going somewhere with this? I see a few possibilities and want to see one of them is it.

[Jahudo]

My gut says Porkens is town despite playing "newbcards" and being confident early on with Spyrex. I just think that's normal for him. He doesn't force either of those two things to work into his favor though, so that's why I say town right now.

I think Sotty was ok for asking what Serial was doing with his vote on Porkens, but he's using alot of speculation in his case that I have trouble seeing the same way. Neither one looks scummy ATM.

You said lets wagon Porkens for no reason

It looked to me like his reason was to pressure Porkens and see how he would react. That seems like a normal play to me.

lets purge Porkens and not tell him why.

He might have had an additional reason but just kept it to himself, which also happens and doesn't raise red flags with me initially.

Go along with it or don't, but asking the question again after twice being told the answer reeks of cautiousness to me.

@Serial: When did Sotty ask the question "again after twice being told the answer"? I only see him ask once, not "again".

I don't agree with the theory about Serial and Spy being buddies. 1/2 of the town hadn't, and hasn't commented on the Spyrex pressure or done much, if any, scumhunting. I'm looking at you, zoraster, rhinio, orbots, juls, jazz, and blood. Pretend I voted and unvoted each of you in succession and then went back to VP, who is worthy of a wagon. (for focusing on strategy talk and fluff posts instead of scumhunting)

[Jahudo]

Serial, why do you still refuse to address the why Porkens stuff? Your vote is on me now, you can explain that now surely.

Seconded. Serial, do you still find porkens scummy? Is it on something that would be good to share now?

Oh...and Rhinox is scum...just gut at this point but I feel I have played with him enough, as both town and scum, that I get a vibe from him.

That was quick. Did you pick it up by his first post or his second?

And what's all this about wizards and zombies? I thought we were just the darkness in this game :/

[Jahudo]

Hai guyz. Did you know zoraster was in this game?

Did you know BloodCovenent was in this game too? It's hard to see his color in tigers tho.

But why unvote him now and switch to another lurker?

[Jahudo]

Jazzmyn, I believe you when you say it's sometimes hard to get started, but so far you've mostly just wondered about the setup and roles. What are your thoughts about people and cases right now? Do you agree or disagree anywhere? Anything noone else has considered yet?

firstly he was scummy due to his lack of scumhunting intent

His lack of scumhunting intent? Did that come across in the post where he voted Spyrex, or somewhere else? How did the intent not look real?

the reason I believe double-vote would be more likely to be scum is that it could be used to save a buddy from getting lynched.

I think our VI (village intellectual) mod made a few roles that could help scumbuddies in that scenario. Condemn could take a player and his vote off scum; Luxomancy stops the purge entirely. I could see these roles as town or scum.


Both zoraster and BloodCovenent have been disingenuous so far:

I've gotta go to dinner, but i should be back up reading more later.

That was four days ago. Dinner doesn't last four days. Where are you?

I'm excited to play in this game.

This was over a week ago. Unless he was excited about playing the lurker, he needs to come in and explain himself.

Mod: Can you prod BloodCovenent and zoraster?

Consider it done. ~Vi

[Jahudo]

Yes it was more than a callout, Spyrex. I wanted to ask them why they weren't posting, since it would affect how I treated their inactivity and if I would vote. Since there was 2 of them and I have only 1 vote, I couldn't pressure them equally through voting.

Blood's excuse sounds legit. Welcome aboard Nachomamma.

zoraster the otter's excuse sounds less legit. He could have left it at "I've been busy", but that comment about the site being slow seems excessive. That means he's on the site a little, and it wouldn't be hard to post here and say he's V/LA like Juls keeps doing.

@VP: Where's the evidence that zoraster is posting elsewhere? Besides modding, since that would take priority. I can't find it in Google search.

Incant: zoraster

[Jahudo]

Sotty, what's the difference between these two quotes?

Serial, why Porkens out of everyone?

Happy birthday SpyreX. WTF did you just do? And why did you do it to Sotty7?

From where I'm looking, there is no difference (except tone). Now let's go back to what you said earlier today:

I wouldn't argue against a MO wagon at this point. I think the reaction to Spy's double vote on me was fishy. He just asked why me and yet didn't give any opinions of the action itself. Felt like he was waiting to see how others reacted.

So by that logic, Sotty's above reaction was fishy, and you wouldn't argue against a Sotty wagon. Except you did when it happened.

Sotty looks hypocritical and scummy here.

2.

The scum win scorched earth.

This is important to remember.

Hello father of history. I don't understand this.

[Jahudo]

Sotty, I think you had asked an innocent question to SC about his Porkens vote. And maybe you would have given an opinion on it before pressed to.

But two people asked similar innocent questions to Spyrex about his doublevote before giving any opinions on the subject. I think it's scummy that you aren't holding yourself, and others, to the same tell you put on Orbots.

wtf is that about?

Happy birthday SpyreX. WTF did you just do? And why did you do it to Sotty7?

VP Baltar could also have been waiting for others to chime in before he gave opinions on the matter, but Sotty only makes it a tell on Orbots.
Why didn't you talk about VP's post being fishy?

If MO had explained his thoughts on me or Spy's double vote that wouldn't have been fine. It wasn't until he was point blank asked did he regurgitate what others had already said well after the time.

The fact remains that you did not give your opinion on SC's vote until he switched his vote to you, and put the pressure on you to defend by talking about your innocent question.

Incant: Sotty7

[Jahudo]

ALL ABOUT ZORASTER:

Anyone voting zoraster can now mention why aside from vagueries posted earlier, please.

It looks like a policy lurker lynch to me. That was kinda the reason I was on board for a while. Maybe some of these posts can have some elaboration.

I wasn't happy with the good stuff, sorry. That was so lazy you might've just kept the stuff on the hydra and got rid of everything else.

Zoraster needs to post with more content before I feel better about him, honestly. His major case on MO is that he really isn't taking stances on anything, but back when he and Zorblag were around, it was pretty early in the game and they didn't have that much of a chance to do a whole lot, so I don't see them being all that scummy.

@Nacho: Is "not being active enough" a good scumtell right now? How is this scummy and not misguided town play from zoraster?
---------------------------

1. I guess it's also a coincidence that you're attacking the one who started your wagon.
2. I also guess we were supposed to ignore the questions people were asking us about how the hydra was going to work.
3. I also also guess I'm not taking a stand on anyone by advocating for your wagon.

Is this scummy and not misguided town focusing on you?

My stand is that I've lynched too many scum lurkers to stop now, and your contributions thus far haven't done anything to sway me.

@MO: This is straight-forward, but do you think he's the biggest offender as of right now?
---------------------------

I know for a fact that he was posting elsewhere on site.

I agree with Jahudo about zor making excessive excuses. I don't even think the site has been that annoying as of late (at least not as much as it was before mith made his corrections).

These don't look vague. They support the theory that zor was trying to lurk though.

Actually, I think zoraster's point about you being in the background was one of his better because I feel the same way. No doubt that CTIII is coloring my perception, but I'm certainly wary of your hydra.

@VP: Since you said this, do you think zoraster is being active and scumhunting? Do you agree with Nacho's reasons for being on the wagon?
---------------------------

I'm getting bad vibes from zoraster, BloodCovenent, and Mighty Orbots, but it's nearly all based on "gut" rather than on substantive evidence.

She still has her random vote on zoraster, and hasn't given a reason why she's keeping it on him over the other two. This is really vague.
@Jazzmyn: Do you agree with the reasons other people are on zoraster's wagon?
---------------------------

I think the part of the zoraster case I originally liked is too dependent on intangibles, like his internet access and time spent on modding. His offer to be lynched, instead of lynching him and another person, also gives me pause. It sounds pro-town.

[Jahudo]

Jahudo's Post 189 stinks if you ask me. First, I don't think the quotes between Sotty and MO are comparable at all as one is asking about a wagon switch and the other is asking about the reasons for double voting.

I think they are both asking about the reasons behind votes that aren't obviously stated in the thread. And neither question has a comment attached to it in the initial question post.

Jahudo had not too much earlier seemed disinterested in the Sotty wagon. + scum points here

There wasn't anything substantial for me there. I read it as pressure votes for them to get reactions. I was hoping for the same with my vote kept on you for an extended period.

This again does not sit well with me. The questions were not similar. Also, she attacked MO for fencesitting on the double voting issue, which isn't relatable to my "wtf" comment because I very clearly said I disagreed with it.

You didn't say anything in your initial post: Post 80. I think your referring to post 87? Spyrex had posted in between those two. But if we're going by real time, you gave your opinion way before MO. It took VP about 20 minutes, and I'm not sure MO has given an opinion on Spy's double vote yet.

So I'm trying to argue that your initial post 80, Mighty Orbots's post 93, and Sotty's post 67 all have a question over an unexplained vote switch. But none of those posts give an opinion straight away. It wasn't a big deal for me until Sotty used that tell to presume scum could be holding out on opinions until the town weighed in.

I'll admit it's imperative to believe that there was intent to continue holding out past that initial reaction of "wtf, unexplained vote? why?". VP didn't have the intent but it looks like MO did. Sotty may have, but she had to go into defense after being voted. So actually, if this tell is a good one it should be used against MO first and foremost.

Wait, what? I think I just argued for the MO wagon!
hmmm... let me rethink this. (and maybe look closer at the Rhinox wagon, because I <3 Rhinox wagons)

unvote

[Jahudo]

EBYOP: Lol, I can't unvote/unpurge. But you get the idea.

Also, lurker callout. You know who you are.

[Jahudo]

I like Jazzy's surge of activity but I'm cautious because some, if not alot, of the opinions can be seen as established, popular views. But that's hard to avoid when you're basically doing a catchup post after 10 pages of talk. Nothing jumps out at me yet as scummy, but I'm still piecing through it. I do like that she's not just going after the popular wagons and the popular reasons.

@Porkens: Do you find Rhinox scummy, or did you just want Sotty and zor to have the same number of votes?

I don't want to fully excuse Porkens' behavior on the grounds of meta. But some things like the "newbcard" still don't bother me. Though I am starting to wonder why he is advocating a zoraster purge without saying much about him.

Me miss Zorblag but no think absence reflect troll alignment. Also I can't find anything on MO as a scum tell besides the time he asked Spy about his 2x vote. I don't think one instance of holding out a read is solid enough evidence. If I'm not mistaken he still hasn't given an opinion about Spy's vote?

And I guess zoraster's not too concerned with looking like a lurker. Did he disappear again?
He just places his vote on MO and stops scumhunting. Not too townish there.

SC, realistically, pushing a decent push as a slam dunk that early with the high probability of backfiring doesn't strike me as a scum machination. Additionally, pushing the game forward when with a decreasing purge number being a nice bottle for the proverbial scum teat is a OK.

Wait, what is the scum teat in this analogy? Late incantations? Is this a town tell on SC, or a byproduct?

I've actually been looking at SC as a possible lyncher. His play makes more sense as that than scum, because he wouldn't have to survive that long. This is just a gut feeling I have, but it's what I think of when I see his involvement with Sotty.

His initial vote on Sotty was innocent at the time and had good but weak reasoning. Definitely not enough to be comfortable purging. More for pressure and reactions.

The way I'm reading the next exchange is that Sotty was ok to ask the question, but started thinking connections too early and that's where the valid suspicion on her continued.

The Spy/SC connection is not grounded with good evidence, but she did back away from that point so I can possibly think that she did not feel as strongly about that opinion, like most early day 1 opinions about scum/not scum are not that strong.

But SC has held onto one point longer than I think town ever would:

she asked a question that had been answered twice previously.

SC's latest post and I think he's still twisting the case around. Sotty clearly did not ask the reasons for the wagon (the part that SC answered twice previously).

There are other posts where SC is trying to direct the conversation of others' onto Sotty. He didn't say what he liked about my case on Sotty. All he wanted was my vote.

In a hilarious twist, I have a sneaking suspicion that Spyrex is his other target. (The SC/Spy connection!!) He's been calling Spy obvtown too hard, which must look like a billboard for scum.

I'm saying this all now because it's a strong enough gut feeling that I don't want SC on Sotty's wagon if he's going to be purged. That's all. We don't need to purge SC, because I'd rather find the mafia-types. We don't have to keep Sotty alive if we think he's in the mafia.

Thoughts on this?

[Jahudo]

I keep thinking Sotty = Scotty. I should just look at avatars.

Answer the question 'Why Porkens' without giving reasons for the wagon.

You could have answered her question without explaining the reasons for the wagon. For example,

Your reason for voting Porkens was "he was easiest to test with pressure".
Sotty says "why porkens out of everybody?"
You say "best target for thing I'll explain later" or "for something I find scummy" or "something and this is not a random vote."

You left yourself open to those questions by people, not just porkens, because its not clear if porkens could be substituted with somebody else or not. Or if porkens did anything at all. Judging by your second explanation, it can look like you were campaigning for more votes on porkens, for the purpose of seeing if eager scum jumped on the porkens wagon.

[Jahudo]

Let me ask you something. Now that Zoraster's wagon has (unfortunately) died down, have you seen any posts from that direction?

Not since Friday when he had 4 posts. But I find it more telling that in those 4 posts, he only talked strategy.

He's also become a reason he's voting MO.

The Hydra (Mighty Orbots) is scummy.

A few long posts, but little in the way of content.

Yes, he's tried to get some lurkers active, but other than that the content of his posts is almost all "I'm a hydra" related and some generic questions that don't take a stand on anyone. Active enough to escape notice for lurking, inactive enough to escape notice for anything else. Mighty Orbots is the scum.

Reason in bold.

@zoraster: why have you not questioned MO, or commented on his latest posts, since voting him?
what do you think about some of the other wagons? anyone you'd pick as a second best option right now?

Incant: zoraster

[Jahudo]

SerialClergyman, you have an interesting sounding meta but I won't hold it for or against you. I've played and won two games as a lyncher and love the role (hahaha kmd), so I've been looking for possibilities in this game from the start.

I'm not convinced you're a lyncher, and could see you as town before mafia at this point, but if you were a lyncher then sotty looks most like your target. It would be enough for me to see you vote someone other than Sotty at deadline. Maybe we can arrange something, as long as we purge zor too.

@Jazzmyn:

The scum teat is the fact that an apathetic town leads to a lower number necessary for a lynch - which lets wackier hijinks happen. Anything that is actively trying to push things forward in a direction versus stagnation in the early phase is a slight town tell. Of course, if Sotty flips scum its a bit more. If Sotty flips a scum PR its pretty much slam dunk.

RE: Good posting:

Scum want to commit to as little as possible so that they can dictate an opinion as needed. If my wagon really took off you could suddenly want to hammer for example.

She makes a good point here. It's okay if people don't explain who is most townie for why (which helps scum direct nk), but Rhinox left himself open to picking sotty as a 3rd choice overall and a 1st viable choice for no reason:

I'm still thinking a porkens or nacho lynch are better than sotty as well.

Also I find Rhinox's obliviousness to Nacho's V/LA status kind of suspect. Your focusing on him and don't even know he's been on mod-acknowledge V/LA?
Rhinox, Why are you still trying to prod him?

[Jahudo]

Where's our mystery guest, Nikanor?

I (still) think the wagon on Sotty is weak, but I'm confounded by the players voting her. SC and Spy seem to be tunneling hard on the basis of things I don't think suggest a scum alignment. If either SC or Spyrex is town, and Sotty is too, I demand at least the right to say "I told you so" in the postgame.
I'm tempted to analyze her wagon (and those not on it) in more depth, but if she ends up purged, it might be better to wait until we've seen her flip.

This sounds like you'd already be willing to purge SC/Spy if Sotty flipped town, but that you also wouldn't terribly mind seeing Sotty purge if it helps you decide on SC/Spy. Is that accurate?

I don't think there's any possibility that they are all scum, and it's probably unlikely that 2 of them are anti-town. But 1 of 3? Sure.

Maybe they aren't great lynches, but they aren't BAD lynches by any stretch.

I'd like to see the day end with 3-4 lynches, some popular, some not. I really don't care who those lynches are. There, I said it.

Okay, you've made it clear you're pushing the wagons from the outside. But do you have any substantial reason for liking the wagons besides Sotty's flailing? Or are you guessing at probabilities with the other two? Because I see no reason not to purge you next if we lose 3-4 townies today and you were pushing for them without pushing them.

[Jahudo]

I don't think Sotty's claim changes anything. Both Sotty and Spy could still be town because we don't know how many factions / anti-town players are in the game. The difference in power could be mod trickyness.

And Sotty doublevoting to prevent her purge would have looked scummy, so the timing of this claim doesn't affect me.

Mod: Can you prod zoraster?

Done. ~Vi

[Jahudo]

I don't want to purge zoraster for lurking/being inactive. But I do want to purge zoraster.

I've got bad vibes on SC, but not for his take on me. He's now made tells that make sense as 2 different third-party factions. I'm waiting to see if the second one develops.

I think Sotty is playing townish lately. And I have a gut feeling I should be paying more attention to both Nacho/Nikanor and Rhinox. And that they should post more.

[Jahudo]

Nikanor, have you read the whole thread?

[Jahudo]

@Mod: Did you know zoraster went on V/LA?

This has me losing interest in a day 1 zoraster purge.

Should I?

Jazz has played differently from the posts you mentioned. Her reasons seem to be partially real life issues and partially meta, which is something you could comment on and say is valid or not.

Okay, Rhinox and SC then. ^5 compromise!

Do you think SC is scum? Your Rhinox case is ok.

I don't know what to do about Sotty's claim. It has me pondering a massclaim.

Are you still pondering this? Do you think it's a good idea? When?
(I 100% disagree with this idea unless we feel we're in lylo/mylo)

[Jahudo]

I don't want to purge zoraster for lurking/being inactive. But I do want to purge zoraster.

@Mod: Did you know zoraster went on V/LA?

This has me losing interest in a day 1 zoraster purge.

Explain. If your reasons for wanting to purge him were not based on his inactivity, then why does his having an excuse for his inactivity make you lose interest in purging him?
Also, is VP scum?

He never showed up to try and defend the reason I found him scummy. I asked questions in post 275 that would help me affirm my incantation.

And there's better cases from people who've said more things. Making a one-dimentional purge on day 1 doesn't help vote analysis as much as someone who's posted more, like SC or Rhinox.

more on SC and Rhinox in a bit...

[Jahudo]

@Serial Clergyman:

I don't know what to do about Sotty's claim. It has me pondering a massclaim.

Are you still pondering this? Do you think it's a good idea? When?
(I 100% disagree with this idea unless we feel we're in lylo/mylo)

???

Also, this meta does not fit with this game:

I'm very vocal about town reads and trust them more strongly than my scum reads. I even spent a period of games where all I did on D1 was look for townies and was prepared to lynch anyone who I couldn't directly state was town.

He seemed to really trust a single scum read by page 4 of this game.

Honestly guys, this case is making itself. The only reason I'm still typing is because I'm trying to break this keyboard before the warranty is due. There should be no need for any further action except incanting Sotty.

And he hasn't acted like he's prepared to purge anyone he hasn't directed stated was town.

If I had to guess right now, I'd say Jahudo was scum due to dodgy votes, Jazzmyn was scum due to suspicious posting patterns and fluff and I'm not sure about the third. Could be you or porkens.

Hasn't said zoraster is town, just that he doesn't like the lurker case on him. Seems like he's neutral on Nikanor. Hasn't commented anything about Hero, MO or Rhinox.
So what are you hiding, SC? Your reasons for thinking some people are town, or your meta?

--------------------------------------

@Rhinox

@porkens: why so apathetic? do you really think all 3 of sotty, SC, and zor are scum together? because I just can't see sotty and SC being scum together.

How important is finding scum pairings in your reads today? Isn't it possible for two people to be scummy and in different factions?

And what is your actually take on zoraster?

As if on cue. Now it really does look like you're intentionally lurking. You don't post for a week, but miraculously show up as soon as you're suspected for lurking? suspicious...

I don't support any plan that includes lynching Zor today. He's seeming town.

How can you find him suspicious but seem he's town? Do you think he's went back to intentionally lurking? What do you think of his posts 177, 217, 218, 220, and 223? Do those seem townish?

@Nacho: I'm displeased with your entrance to the game. No thoughts on other players besides Zor? Is MO your scum partner?

How can this displease you if you think it's important to withhold your town reads? It took you 5 posts to suspect someone other than porkens.

Rhinox, at this moment which purge you do prefer: porkens or nikanor?

[Jahudo]

I'm dropping this train of thought:

I've got bad vibes on SC, but not for his take on me. He's now made tells that make sense as 2 different third-party factions. I'm waiting to see if the second one develops.

I felt the way he suggested massclaim this early could be a reporter play. But he didn't push the idea, even after Hero started thinking massclaim too.

Now I'm thinking even Hero's suggestion is too on the nose for a reporter to say.

There are several people who I'm pretty confident are not scum, and I feel that setting ourselves up to purge all but a handful of townies would force the scum to scramble to avoid having all their members purged.

But reporter talk is just theory. It's more practical to think of the potential power roles that would be outed by massclaim. I think scum could have town-sounding power roles like cop or doc in this game, given the SK and other anti-town faction possibilities, so mass claim does not sound like a good idea.

[Jahudo]

I never supported a massclaim.

I never said you supported it, just that you suggested an idea.

SC 394 doesn't really drop the idea of a massclaim.

He said he was probably against it, which didn't sound like opportunism after seeing other people continue talking about the idea.

As far as I can tell, a massclaim doesn't help a hypothetical reporter very much. It would just guide them in using an investigative ability, if they have one.

According to the role PM, one way of checking a role of their hypothetical list is by mod confirmation. So a flip. Your suggestion sounds like the best strategy for a theoretical reporter:

There are several people who I'm pretty confident are not scum, and I feel that setting ourselves up to purge all but a handful of townies would force the scum to scramble to avoid having all their members purged.

But I'm done talking about 3rd parties for now, in case my focusing on SC is allowing a real lyncher/reporter/etc some more breathing room.
I think Rhinox and SC could be scum. The mafia types.

Also, is VP scum?

His scumhunting of SC looks genuine. But I'm starting to wonder why he's so open to the Rhinox wagon?
VP?

[Jahudo]

@Rhinox

My vote is on porkens, so that is your answer. Overall, I don't like porkens' apathy and willingness to lynch anybody without really giving reasons.

This reasoning doesn't meld with your original suspicions on Porkens. I feel your just taking words at face value and not actually SCUM HUNTING him. Originally you thought Porkens was trying to hide behind the newbcard. Now you say he's apathetic and trying to get anyone purged. He can't be both overly cautious scum and overly risky scum. What do you think of his responses to criticism on him?

nikanor is an improvement over nacho in terms of activity, and

at least seems to be scum hunting

. What I don't like is his appeal to his scum hunting history in order to support his cases, i.e. "I've only ever called people scum like this 4 other times and they were scum then so they're scum now".

If his cases were strong, he wouldn't need his scum hunting history to support them.

Can you elaborate on the bolded parts? You're not okay with him making guesses based on his history of being right, but you like the hunting he does based on those guesses? Does the history poison his scumhunting or not?

--------------

@Jazzmyn

I'll have lots of time on the weekend again. That's just the way it is here sometimes, given the nature of my work; I don't have a lot of control over it.

It's been the weekend. Have you caught up on the game?
Has zoraster's continued absence (excused or not) affected your "neutral read" on him?

--------------

@VP Baltar

Anyway, I'd be happy doublepurging Jazzmyn and Rhinox now.

C'mon now, work with me here. One of those and SC or if I'm absolutely not going to get that, zoraster (though I don't think his lurking means anything any more). The point of two purges is that we can make everybody happy!

Are you feeling anything more on Jazzmyn since your Post 167?
Or was that post all about compromise to get SC purged?
Is it that you could find Jazzmyn or Rhinox more likely scum, or zoraster more likely town?

--------------

@Mighty Orbots

This kinda sucks. Zoraster + (Porkens/Jazzmyn) FTW.

Do you have any reason to think Porkens or Jazzmyn are scum, or are you just compromising to get zoraster purged?

[Jahudo]

Okay, I did misread masspurge as massclaim. Still I think today we should only do a massage of two people. Um, I mean a massachusetts of two people.

Jahudo, do you still want MO purged today?

The original point against them didn't seem bad in isolation, but after a re-read I am in favor of a MO purge today.

He has been holding back opinions until other town weighs in. If this happens once or twice on an issue that the asking player is neutral/undecided, that isn't scummy. But MO is consistently trying to get player reads from other people while simultaneously withholding his own reads.

Happy birthday SpyreX. WTF did you just do? And why did you do it to Sotty7?

This was the first one I noticed, and originally compared it to a Sotty quote and a VP quote. The difference was that MO kept asking it and didn't make a comment until pressed to do so, and much later on.

Jazz, who's scum?

At this point they hadn't suspected anyone for anything except zoraster, for not posting. And even then they didn't call it lurking.

@VP, while apparently I have caught your attention - SerialClergyman is scum y/n?

At this point they had not made any comment on SC, so it could be another instance of them gauging interest in a possible wagon without picking a side yet. Also in their previous post they fence-leaned on Sotty, and an opinion on her defense could have also been an opinion on SC's offense. But what they said about Sotty had no impact on a possible SC read.

I think this is a very good day 1 tell, and strong enough on its own for me to incant them now. They were called out for this by zoraster, and their response looked overly defensive: Post 174.

So, um, lawl.

1. I guess it's also a coincidence that you're attacking the one who started your wagon.
2. I also guess we were supposed to ignore the questions people were asking us about how the hydra was going to work.
3. I also also guess I'm not taking a stand on anyone by advocating for your wagon.

1 looks like trying to downgrade zoraster's actual reasons to an OMGUS.
2 I agree with MO. 3 sounds like they're trying to prove their own towniness by bringing the debate to their pro-towniness. I don't feel good about a townie being concerned with them being town.

I'd prefer an MO and Rhinox purge at this moment.

Incant: Mighty Orbots

[Jahudo]

I'm okay with everything said above. It makes sense MO would stay under our radars since it looks like he wasn't committing to anything that would open up questioning.

I can't think of any questions for MO right now, but I think it will be informative to see a couple more MO posts before we start asking for claims.

@Spyrex, do you think anything of Jazzmyn's reported V/LA? I think it explains her most recent bags of nothing, like part of zoraster and nacho's absence.

[Jahudo]

If I haven't mentioned someone it's because I don't have a read on them. When I've thought people are town or scum I've provided reasons

I guess SC doesn't have a read on MO or Rhinox.

So do you trust us SC?

[Jahudo]

Gammagooey: define "bleh".

everyone else's reasonings for hopping off that wagon would be appreciated.

My reason for joining was different than others. Basically I thought he was calling out a particular MO post as a scumtell when I thought Sotty had made a comparable post himself. The posts weren't big tells for me on their own, but calling something scummy on one person when you do it as well is scummy to me. But he explained his position well and I decided they weren't comparable after all.

My MO case is because tries to get other players to give up reads on people before he makes a comment on people.

My Rhinox case is that I think he's scumhunting like scum. Part of his Porkens case seems to contradict another part. Like that metaphor where you make any post a scumtell and see what sticks to the wall.

Do you see MO and/or Rhinox another way, Gammagooey?

[Jahudo]

9pm EST

We could wait until just before that and put both to P-1. I don't think we can count on MO, Rhinox or Jazz, so everyone else would have to be on board.

[Jahudo]

Win Conditions:

(Dark - Town) You win when all other factions have left the game and one person who shares this Win Condition is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

(Moychandiser) You win when everyone alive has an item of Spaceballs^TM-themed moychandise, even if you are dead. However, if your removal from the game would cause the Dark Win Condition to be fulfilled, you will exit the game and lose.

We need to purge Rhinox.

MO where are you?

[Jahudo]

Nacho makes a good point. Why help out a potential moychandaiser? Why give Hero an ability they may or may not be good for town? Neither seems like good reasons to use the power.

And Rhinox cross voting with MO/SC wouldn't seem to make sense in his shoes, since he only see Porkens and Nacho as scum. But it would make sense he'd try to quickhammer if the alternative was him and someone else, since he's said he only wants 1 purge per incantation.

But if we have to watch out for a quickhammer, we should make sure its not on Rhinox since it doesn't seem likely he's mafia or a killing role. I think we can still get a good 2'fer today.

[Jahudo]

If I haven't answered these two points sufficiently in this post already, let me know and I'll give it another shot. Regardless, what point are you trying to make here? I can see 2 different possibilities.

You did answer my questions, and I was trying to see what you were thinking about your role when the game started. I don't think I would have used a role just to prove I had it or if I thought it wouldn't help.

Okay, I don't really like the idea of Rhinox being quickhammered as the only purge today. It's really unlikely he's mafia, and he isn't much of a threat if he's 3rd party right now so maybe we should keep him around and purge him if he tries to give away more moychendise.

We should look for two potential mafia types. I think MO should be one, and right now I'd probably go SC, Jazz, Pork, then Gamma.

[Jahudo]

I'm here for the next few hours.

Does anyone think Rhinox could be mafia?

I don't, so I think we should purge 2 potential mafia types.

[Jahudo]

I just think Rhinox is 3rd party. But i'd be okay with purging him today if we can get a 3 team trade.

I don't like the idea of a Hero purge, or a Porkens or Gamma purge. I'd be okay with Sotty if I can stay clear some cap space and keep my power forward.

[Jahudo]

And if you don't get NBA deadline jokes.... How about Rhinox, Sotty and MO?

[Jahudo]

Incantation:

:arrow:

Rhinox (P-2)

~

Nachomamma8

,

SpyreX

,

Herodotus

, Mighty Orbots
:arrow:

Sotty7 (P-2)

~

-INCANT-

,

SpyreX

,

Gammagooey

Mighty Orbots (P-3) ~

Jahudo

,

SerialClergyman

,

VP Baltar

,

Sotty7

Porkens (P-3)

~

Rhinox

,

SerialClergyman

SerialClergyman (P-4)

~

Jazzmyn

,

Sotty7, VP Baltar

Gammagooey (P-4)

~

Mighty Orbots,

Porkens

--NO PURGE-- (P-4)

~

VP Baltar

SpyreX (P-5)

~

SpyreX

Jazzmyn (P-5)

~

Gammagooey

VP Baltar (P-5)

~

VP Baltar

Dang, I think we'd need Jazzy for a 3 way purge

[Jahudo]

I will support a Rhinox/Sotty purge.

[Jahudo]

I don't want a Gam purge.

[Jahudo]

How about Sotty/SC?

I think most would agree there's a good chance of 1 and only 1 scum, but at least this way we can go back and fully analyze that early wagon and how we're divided right now. It seems that we either prefer Sotty over SC or SC over Sotty.

[Jahudo]

I'd want Rhinox, MO and Sotty before I'd want SC. And even then I'd probably go for Jazzmyn. But the analysis of SC/Sotty flip makes me giddy.

I'm prepared to incant either Rhinox or Sotty in about 10 minutes.

Should we decide who votes who, so we don't accidentally quickhammer?

[Jahudo]

Understood.

[Jahudo]

eh?

[Jahudo]

are you just preventing a quickhammer, porkens?

[Jahudo]

OMG, yes MO. Do it. Double vote Rhino

[Jahudo]

I think your good, Hero

[Jahudo]

everybody else chill. I got this

[Jahudo]

Incant: Sotty7

[Jahudo]

Oh yeah. I was caught up in the moment and forgot that the porkens vote was still needed on SC when MO's double vote made Rhinox viable again.

[Jahudo]

Spyrex, did you resolve your confusion over your double voting power?

[Jahudo]

Happy birthday, Jahudo!

Thanks
All I want for my birthday is some scum flips

[Jahudo]

Hmm, I can't say I like to see VP Baltar double crossing people. Though I don't know who fingers is so maybe it's OK given the context.

<insert drum roll here>

I think you mean a rimshot. As in, "ba dum tish". A drum roll is made in anticipation of something, like the next incantation.

[Jahudo]

Also, happy birthday Jahudo! Your avatar went from adorable to Cool since the last time I saw it~

Thanks!

Its possible we don't have any more light mafia, like in Vi's Jailbreak Mafia that had 2 mafia and 1 sk. But its only speculation today so Rhinox/MO associative tells aren't going to be my complete focus, but neither am I going to ignore them. So...

My bad then. Then you are a hero for squeezing Rhinox into the purge, better?

Yeah, Porkens made the initial move to try and bring Rhinox back into the mass purge after we started planning for just SC and Sotty. I highly doubt he's scum with Rhinox/MO because that would have been preventable bussing.

Rhinox also focused on Nacho and Porkens while ignoring townies like SC and Sotty, so I'm leaning to think he was trying to mislynch instead of distance. The same could apply to MO and zoraster, though I feel less strong about that because MO was keeping all of his options open for wagon hops. Zor could have been distancing. And lets not forget that MO was ready to bus his partner to save himself and get mucho townie cred.

Rhinox may be third party but definitely not scum WITH MO.

Would a POWERFUL WIZARD go to great lengths to avoid his scumbuddys being paired together, by saying their's no way they're together? This enough makes me think he's not likely light scum.

Gamma was against Rhinox since the moment he joined. He still keeps up the suspicion after the claim. Also talking about MO and Rhinox multipurge, but Post 585 seemed to show that Gamma didn't prefer a MO purge. Hard to say if he could be light scum. More likely than those I previously mentioned, less likely than the following.

VP re-energized the MO wagon around Post 408, but he wasn't too interested in Rhinox until later. He believed Rhinox's claim more than others too, so I could believe distancing.

Jazzmyn had Rhinox as possible 3rd party and MO as possible scum in her walls o' text, but the problem is that she listed most people in that ambiguous neutral to leaning scum. Her activity drop after those posts but before her V/LA don't help her look town. I could see her as possible light scum or other scum.

This pretty much represents my overall gut feelings at the moment. I want to look closer at Jazz, VP and Gamma.

[Jahudo]

I can see how my attitude towards MO makes me look scummy, but Rhinox? He was the most suspicious of anyone to me and I pushed pretty hard to help get him lynched

When you replaced in both MO and Rhinox were at P-1. A scumbuddy would have to bus at least one in that scenario. But that, itself, doesn't mean your scum.

This occurred in the same day that Gamma replaced in:

If it comes up I'll use that double vote to lynch Rhinox today rather than getting lynched if the game state doesn't change in a way that prevents it

So a scumbuddy would have known around that time that bussing Rhinox and saving MO was likely their plan.

When Sotty became a viable purge in place of MO, Gamma jumped without hesitation.

SUDDENLY,
Incant:Sotty

The thing with MO being willing to single hammer Rhino is a bit scummy, but I like Sotty lyanch better than him mostly on gut from Sotty's early posts.

A 3-way adding MO lynch just doesn't seem like it would end well to me

I support Rhino/Sotty for the lynchings.

And continued to support a Rhinox purge.

So I can see Gamma as a possible scumbuddy.[/mech]

[Jahudo]

And I feel less confident that VP is light mafia scumbuddy. He decreased his suspicion of both MO and Rhinox on page 23, which looks like risky play because it would have helped Rhinox and MO survive past that day.

Orbots is causing me to have misgivings on this page. I may be willing to go back to a SC/Rhinox purge.

I don't really see Rhinox as being important at all since he's not likely scum.

VP: Does "scum" here mean mafia or any scum?


So I'll look at Jazz and Gamma again and most likely incant one of them next. I don't see anyone else as scummy.

[Jahudo]

VP, are you saying that Hero could not have given you an ability with his Summon power? Did you get any abilities during the incantation, or has your role not changed since pregame?

[Jahudo]

Incant: Gammagooey

I can't honestly say Jazz is town because we haven't seen her long enough or in important phases like that deadline. But besides her willingness to lean most people scum on her 1 set of reads, I don't think anything she's done/not done are alignment tells. So I'm waiting to see what she does today before I would support her purge.

I could believe Sotty using Gespenst on MO. She really thought he was scum, so I think there's a good chance that's what happened. But that doesn't eliminate the possibility of an SK, or some other third party somewhere. So unless I feel really good about 2-3 people being scum, I only want to purge 1 person today. Right now that's Gamma.

@Gamma: Why did you suggest MO and Rhinox cross-voting each other if you thought MO was town?

And why did you list all the possibilities of Rhinox's claim (moychendiser, town with ability, scum with ability) if you were confident that he should be lynched in any case?

3)He's mafia who's taking advantage of Herod's claim of recieving an item for a convincing fakeclaim with very little risk of being cced, given that if the actual moychandaiser claims he's (he being the actual moychandaiser) probably screwed. Possible solution-ask that his next merchandise thing be given to a small pool of one of 2-3 people. If they don't get one and someone else does, LYANCH.

Because here you suggest keeping Rhinox alive to test his claim, and you give voice to this idea even though you don't outright support it.

What happened between here...

Nikanor is awesome, Nacho decidedly less so. slight town based on Nikanor's stuff.

Nikanor is amazing, Nacho inherits his awesomeness. town.

...And here? Yes, Nikanor is great but before Nacho pulled the slot down to slight town. Is he now solid town?

Jazz i don't have a good read on one way or another.

Have you read her walls of text yet?

[Jahudo]

Jazzy gets alot of bad luck. Did you by chance break any mirrors or cross any black cat paths?

And I think she's either ignoring or not seeing the logic behind purging SC and Sotty the same day. Since Jazz was the only one not on board with the idea (b/c she was afk), it looks like she's trying to only help herself by opposing the plan now. Unless she has a good reason for opposing this logic:

@Jazzmyn: Everybody was torn between purging Sotty or SC. So if we only purged one and they flipped town, at least half the town would really want to purge the other one next time. Even if one flipped scum, that didn't exclude the other from being third party scum and some people may still see their actions as scummy independent from the pressure SC gave Sotty.

[Jahudo]

@Gamma: what scum motivation would VP have from hiding his Summon ability?
The ability doesn't benefit him, and I don't think he was consciously trying to out whoever gave him the power. More like he was trying to make himself less appealing to scum NKs.

About setup talk:
A big cross purge isn't even possible for another week or so, but it would also be risky with all these role possibilities. Not so much that scum could win today, but we have to consider things like...

Say a purge fails, we have to decide if its Luxomancy (where we might not believe a town would go against the group to save themselves), Protect (where a scum might setup a town getting purged) or Liquid Being (which a town might have, or scum would blame on scum Protect).

And we'd have to prepare for an extra death because of Vindictive Being and Prominence, not to mention an extra scum NK (like if Hero was double purged, or there was a block or no target).

But we could solve the doublevote threat by all trying to doublevote now. Do people want to do that, or is there a good reason to keep that possibility hidden?
I'm okay with that, but I am hesitant to support a full massclaim.

[Jahudo]

Double Incant: Jahudo

[Jahudo]

@Jazzmyn, here's the cliff notes for team SC vs. team Sotty.

Wanted to purge SC:

You guys are lunatics. SC/Rhinox.

I'd prefer SC/Rhinox

SC and MO for scumteam 2010, but that's beside the issue.

Wanted to purge Sotty:

I don't think that SerialClergyman is a good option at this time.
I can live with Rhinox and Sotty7.

I will support a Rhinox/Sotty purge.

I support Rhino/Sotty for the lynchings.

Yea, lets make Sotty / Rhinox happen.

Jazzmyn and Nacho, can you try to double vote?

[Jahudo]

Let's talk about Rhinox behind his back. Does anyone think he could have been distancing/bussing Porkens or Nacho?

He went after Porkens earlier and on a small issue (the newbcard joke in Rhino's second post).

If found this pretty funny:

@Nacho: I'm displeased with your entrance to the game. No thoughts on other players besides Zor? Is MO your scum partner?

Rhinox called out Nacho for supporting a wagon that MO also supported. It actually looks like he's trying to distance from MO with this post, so its possible he could try to distance Nacho. But he'd also be trying to derail his buddies mislynch attempt, which seems odd since Rhinox made little attempt to support a viable wagon. Unless zoraster wouldn't have been a mislynch.

And then Rhinox admitted he didn't know Nacho was V/LA when he asked for a prod on Porkens and Nacho. If they were scumbuddies then Rhinox should have known his buddy was V/LA, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a bad idea to prod for the sake of prodding.

The post before Rhinox claimed, he said he preferred a Porkens purge over Nacho. And at times he seemed more willing to talk with Nacho, but just wanted to keep pressure on Porkens and say he'd be a good purge. This part makes me think Porkens is less likely of the two to be in the light mafia.

[Jahudo]

Vi:Are we allowed to name claim?

Are you implying that you aren't a Dark Eminence? I wouldn't put it past him to gambit if he was the last of the light mafias and most if not all of us support his purging. But it isn't a good gambit since most of us also feel we have a favorable town: scum ratio.

I think Gamma should live today, and see if there's a power role out there to see if he's lying.

One thing for sho' though is that all the players that WILL be remaining need to burn a DV today. No more shenanigans.

I think we've all tried to double vote now. Sadly we are not all POWERFUL WIZARDS.

[Jahudo]

Jazz is an intersting choice for last light mafia. I could see it happening based on the known scums interactions.

-Rhinox ignored her the entire game. And Jazz was fence-leaning about Rhinox but agreed with his suspects, Nacho and Porkens, which could mean she liked Rhinox more than she let on.

-MO made one pressure notice but didn't ever call her scummy. He said he was going to read her big wall of texts, but never commented on them. He then suggested a double purge of Zoraster and either Porkens or Jazzmyn, but without reasoning and wanted to compromise with others by making sure Zoraster got purged, so he dropped the Jazzmyn issue.

Jazz found MO scummy, which would be the hardest early distancing if the scumteam is actually Jazz/Rhinox/MO. She also disagreed with the zoraster wagon, which hurt the Rhinox/MO scumteams most viable mislynch plan.

And the only people who still have double votes to use today are VP and Spyrex.

They tried to double vote today, but it didn't work.

I am Tarhalindur, Garo Master over Mafia.

It seems that Vi puts one of these role names in every theme game. I've been meaning to ask why Tar is always over Mafia. Also, Majora's Mask reference?

[Jahudo]

So are we just slowly making our way to massclaimed? That's fine by me, now that we're narrowing down who's most townie and would likely get purged tonight.

[Jahudo]

Nacho, why do you think VP could doublevote? He tried to and failed in post 782.

I think we all agree that we want to purge Jazz today, correct?
So since she's been soft-claiming, she might as well claim now so we can see if this is still the best plan.

[Jahudo]

Jazz needs to claim. Then we can speed up the purging process.

My purging preference is Jazz > Nacho > Porkens. But I also think 2 purges is a safer/better idea today.

I recently got a paranoid suspicion that VP is 3rd party, specifically Moychendiser, but its about as strong of a feeling as I had with SC so I'm not focused there. Its basically his reaction to Rhinox being possible Moychendiser and a couple more things, but thats also the way I reacted to Rhinox so I can see him as town there too.

[Jahudo]

We probably only have 1-2 scum, and probably only 1 killing faction, and I don't have scum reads on many people. But I got plenty of majesty.

Like I've said with Jazzy, her bouts of inactivity are not a tell. But her big catchup posts day 1 had most people leaning scum or neutral, which seemed like she was saying neutral is 3rd party.

Today Nacho keeps changing his purge choices to the point that it looks like he's just look for compromises without much necessary scumhunting.

the purge should be me, Porkens, and Jazz.

I think the plan to go with is a triple purge of me, Jazz, and Jah today

MY DREAM TRIPLE PURGE:

Jazz, Porkens, VP.

You've called both me and VP town at one point, but also thought it would be a good idea to purge us? Your initial pro-town sounding offer to purge yourself has disappeared, which could have been a scum gambit. I don't think even Porkens has been this purge happy. And it started day 1 when you were okay with lurker purges, and listed a bunch of people in that category.

[Jahudo]

So VP and Porkens purge is more to eliminate the double voting threat?

A tinsy, tiny part of me is worried that Nacho or Jazz has already used an action this phase and could have double vote. But most of me thinks that's too many players with double vote.

[Jahudo]

Good game everybody!!!
I wish I could say I knew this would happen after saying I only wanted 1 purge, but that really was me being cautious and afraid that someone like Porkens or VP was playing a really good 3rd party game.

Spyrex was always obvtown, and now he should be titled from henchforth: POWERFUL WIZARD.

Vi, where does that "Tarhalindur over Mafia" flavor originate from?

And what was I supposed to do with Echoing Voice? It seemed pointless to me to the point that I wouldn't have claimed it if pressed to.
Maybe if it didn't count as an action I would have had some fun with it.

Okay, I'm going to send in Herod as an Aureola target and hope for the best. It's Jahudo's birthday and it just wouldn't be right to off him on his bd.

Aww thanks!!

[Jahudo]

bte, I kept meaning to ask...

Jahudo, is the cute puppy in your avatar yours? Do I need to bring my puppy avatar back so others can vote on who's is cuter?

Yes and Yes. And I think cute avatars help make you look pro-town.

[Jahudo]

I believe this is the place to go for mafiascum cuteness: Brandi's Art Thread.