Mini 914 ~ Mafia Reverberation (Game Over!)

[VP Baltar]

/something like it

[VP Baltar]

So the first thing that came to my mind is that we are going to have to be somewhat careful about not leaving people at L-# unless we are sure we want a purging to take place. There is a mild potential for lurking to take place and an "accidental" purging to happen. Furthermore, we cannot simply unvote because that is a No Purge.

tl,dr

Pay attention to where your vote is and P-2 is the new P-1.

[VP Baltar]

It looks like we have close to three weeks before 7 incants is a purge. An accidental incantation is something to think about, but not much more than regular games.

Incant: VP Baltar

Are you against RVS here? y?

Can Jahudo have green flavor?

Well that's just plain wrong:

8. Deadlines and the Purge threshold: There is no deadline per se. However, at the beginning of each Incantation the Purge threshold starts at the number of living players; i.e. it will take every living player Incanting the same person to Purge someone.

Every three real-time days, that threshold decreases by one player.

The Incantation ends when someone reaches the Purge threshold or the Purge threshold drops to zero (No Purge).

We'd have just over two weeks before it's 7 players to purge.

And I'm not really against the RVS, just wanted to get that thought out there.

Incant: Spyrex

.

Poopy brown for me, please.

[VP Baltar]

Purge: VP Baltar

for being too town.

Ahh, it's all coming back to me!

You just made my day. I think this is the first time anyone has ever accused me of being town.

[VP Baltar]

Oh come on, baby, don't be like that. All is fair in love and war...and, well, that was both.

In the meantime, I'm not sure if I'm following you on the multi-lynch thing. I need to look back at the rules, but multiple people can die if they pass the threshold simultaneously?

[VP Baltar]

In that proposed situation SC, what prevents two or more scum from voting each other and then unvoting at the last second? (that process crossed my mind after Spy brought it up, but I'm trying to figure out the best way to do it and actually have it go through as planned)

Daytalking scum seems particularly annoying in relation to that plan.

[VP Baltar]

Please note V/LA in sig. Posting this in all my games.

[VP Baltar]

Catching up. And first order of business is Happy B-Day, SpyreX! You're one of my favorite scummers and I hope you have a great day.

Even without confirmed town utilizing this for 2-4 lynches instead of one has some advantages (even with, of course, the fact that if we frak up then game-set-match for scum MUCH quicker)

Well, that latter part is a decent deterrant in my opinion, but if I survived (and won) a game where nearly everyone has a daykill, I guess lynching 2 people early on isn't too bad of a prospect.

Your ability is special, right? Oh it's not? That's crazy.. what could the explanation be? Oh wait, you changed your mind, it IS special!

You slanderous bastard! My claim was perfect. It was Llama who was shifting back and forth.

Well wait a minute, not to game the setup without cause but...If we have AW confirmed town, don't we just lynch EVERYONE else and those who wont play ball get slung?

Well there are certain roles that would F that up pretty bad if the scum have them, aren't there?

edit: ah, this was addressed.

Hey, lets purge Porkens and not tell him why.

Cool with me. (and there is actually a valid reason)

Incant: Porkens

[VP Baltar]

wtf is that about?

[VP Baltar]

What's with the name beng crossed out on the votecount as well? Anyone got any clues there?

I'M DAZED AND CONFUSED.

YOU UNVOTED AND LEFT A VAPOR TRAIL. ~Vi

^Vi game noob right thar

[VP Baltar]

Well see, that was actually pretty stupid to do Spy given that if the Reporter role is in this game, you may have just given him or her a first check on the list of roles.

[VP Baltar]

See, helping the reporter if one exists doesn't hurt me. Its dealing with those light side namby pambies that is the big one.

Basically, helping them EARLY works out a-ok because they win, tighten the scum pool, etc. Its gonna be if we wait until late when helping them with no scum left means a loss.

Well, we win without them winning and if you're going down the road of "reveal roles to get the reporter out of the game" then you're going to end up forcing many more claims to acheive that because we don't even know what a hypothetical reporter would need to exit the game.

Of course, powerful wizards aren't worried about much.

'cept zombies.

Doublevote? I like the timing actually, letting us know he has the power to quicklynch before he gets the opportunity to do it. Seems protown.

I can think of at least on very good reason that I personally see for him not to have done that just now, but I'm not sure enough on it yet to speak on it at the moment.

VP, are you going somewhere with this? I see a few possibilities and want to see one of them is it.

See above reasoning about revealing roles for the reporter to win. I may have something else to add to this soon, but I need to think about that. Other than that, I don't have that much interest in it, but I could very likely be missing something you are seeing.

Honestly guys, this case is making itself. The only reason I'm still typing is because I'm trying to break this keyboard before the warranty is due. There should be no need for any further action except incanting Sotty.

I'm really not following your actual reasoning on this one. I think you misinterpreted what Sotty said, be it intentionally or not.

Of course, I think Sotty is reaching as well. So, meh.

VP, who is worthy of a wagon. (for focusing on strategy talk and fluff posts instead of scumhunting)

Strategy talk in the first three pages of a semi-open game is scummy in your opinion? lol


Spy, don't you think it would have been better to place your double vote after you had a more solid read that just gut? I mean, for all intents and purposes that single vote makes Sotty much more lynchable than anyone else for the rest of this phase.

[VP Baltar]

See, helping the reporter if one exists doesn't hurt me. Its dealing with those light side namby pambies that is the big one.

Basically, helping them EARLY works out a-ok because they win, tighten the scum pool, etc. Its gonna be if we wait until late when helping them with no scum left means a loss.

Well, we win without them winning and if you're going down the road of "reveal roles to get the reporter out of the game" then you're going to end up forcing many more claims to acheive that because we don't even know what a hypothetical reporter would need to exit the game.

Of course, powerful wizards aren't worried about much.

'cept zombies.

Doublevote? I like the timing actually, letting us know he has the power to quicklynch before he gets the opportunity to do it. Seems protown.

I can think of at least on very good reason that I personally see for him not to have done that just now, but I'm not sure enough on it yet to speak on it at the moment.

VP, are you going somewhere with this? I see a few possibilities and want to see one of them is it.

See above reasoning about revealing roles for the reporter to win. I may have something else to add to this soon, but I need to think about that. Other than that, I don't have that much interest in it, but I could very likely be missing something you are seeing.

Honestly guys, this case is making itself. The only reason I'm still typing is because I'm trying to break this keyboard before the warranty is due. There should be no need for any further action except incanting Sotty.

I'm really not following your actual reasoning on this one. I think you misinterpreted what Sotty said, be it intentionally or not.

Of course, I think Sotty is reaching as well. So, meh.

VP, who is worthy of a wagon. (for focusing on strategy talk and fluff posts instead of scumhunting)

Strategy talk in the first three pages of a semi-open game is scummy in your opinion? lol


Spy, don't you think it would have been better to place your double vote after you had a more solid read that just gut? I mean, for all intents and purposes that single vote makes Sotty much more lynchable than anyone else for the rest of this phase.

[VP Baltar]

Less of a "Lets help the hypothetical reporter win!" and more of a "If they exist and we CAN help them win while doing the important stuff, no sweat off my back".

In general when there are third parties I can work WITH versus worrying about working against I prefer the former. (Although, realistically, with the number of players and the number of factions I wouldn't lose sleep over the possibility of a reporter - in fact, I think I'd prefer a reporter / town / scum setup over the others by a decent margin).

Alright.

More lynchable by one. I mean, my other vote can move around AND as we sit the Purge threshold is so high that, honestly, if that vote becomes a rationale for a wagon that means either a.) Sotty continues down the madness hole and needs to be lynched anyways or b.) we lollygagged SO MUCH that the threshold got that low which would make a POWERFUL WIZARD cry tears of blood.

But it's still there regardless. I don't think it's going to make amazingly more likely to be lynched, but facts are facts, right? I dunno, I just think it was a bit of an impetuous decision (though that doesn't necessarily say anything about alignment I guess).

[VP Baltar]

VP, the case being weak or unconvincing I can handle (why do people talk about 'stretching' 5 pages into a game? Are they expecting QED?) but in what way do you think I've misinterpreted Sotty?

Yeah, I'm not expecting anything fantastic at this point, but the "she's scum digging her own grave" act is a touch over the top for this early in the game.

As far as misinterpreted, I'm referring to her 'Why porkens out of everyone?' line, which I actually read as she is saying she meant it (ie why porkens instead of others). You're taking it as her defending porkens, but that's a pretty over the top interpretation of it in my mind. Why not just read it as her trying to find out your thought process?

[VP Baltar]

And what's all this about wizards and zombies? I thought we were just the darkness in this game :/

I don't know about wizards, but the zombies bit is a reference to a game that Spy, Serial and I were just in together.

I'm down with,

Incant zoraster

, especially since I know he is posting elsewhere.

given the mechanic of this game I think doublevote is a more scummy ability.

Explain this please.

[VP Baltar]

I'm excited to play in this game.

This was over a week ago. Unless he was excited about playing the lurker, he needs to come in and explain himself.

How about a vote then?

^This goes for everyone else. I'm pretty certain zoraster is intentionally lurking and should be greeted upon his return with a hearty wagon.

[VP Baltar]

@Rhinox-because I know for a fact that he was posting elsewhere on site.

[VP Baltar]

@VP: Where's the evidence that zoraster is posting elsewhere? Besides modding, since that would take priority. I can't find it in Google search.

It's an ongoing game that I'm dead in. Though he stopped after I first brought it up.

That said, I'm getting bad vibes from zoraster, BloodCovenent, and Mighty Orbots, but it's nearly all based on "gut" rather than on substantive evidence.

I don't like this at all. Jazz is implying that these people have done something to have pinged her scumdar (at least on an intuitive level), when in actuality they have done almost nothing at all either way. I don't mind calling out lurking as scummy (because it is), but I feel Jazz is implying more than that here.

I agree with Jahudo about zor making excessive excuses. I don't even think the site has been that annoying as of late (at least not as much as it was before mith made his corrections).

[VP Baltar]

Slight clarification: Jahudo, I was playing in that ongoing game under the hydra account Merkabah.

[VP Baltar]

1. I guess it's also a coincidence that you're attacking the one who started your wagon.
2. I also guess we were supposed to ignore the questions people were asking us about how the hydra was going to work.
3. I also also guess I'm not taking a stand on anyone by advocating for your wagon.

Actually, I think zoraster's point about you being in the background was one of his better because I feel the same way. No doubt that CTIII is coloring my perception, but I'm certainly wary of your hydra.

I'd like your opinion of Sotty and the wagon on her plz.

I think Juls was right the first time.

Really? I didn't understand her reasoning at all and I don't think she actually explained it well. I'd like you to elaborate.

Have you ever been town?

*bats eyelashes* Why of course.....

You haven't posted many reads on people (though you aren't the only one.) Would you, please?

Well, apart from it being fairly early in the game, I think I've at least tried to be forthcoming and comment on relevant things. I think Sotty and Jahudo (though I just read one of his scum games recently and he's quite tricksy) are probably town at this time. I think Spyrex's double voting business is very much null. Porkens and zoraster (my two votes this game) are my two earliest guesses for scum, but that's largely intuitive given how little both of them have said. I just mentioned MO. Other than that, things are largely still up in the air for me. Is there something or someone specific you wanted my opinion on that I haven't talked about?

[VP Baltar]

I think this is the only thing you've said about suspecting Porkens so far. Are you ready to tell us the secret?

Sure, I really didn't like his vote on Spyrex initially because of his tone in that post. He basically seemed to want to discredit the multi-purge theory.

That could be coming from a cautious townie as well, but then when he agrees with MO's advocating of multi-purges in post 51 it goes to full-tilt scummy. Jahudo points this out in post 56 and I really didn't find Porken's response (he didn't like spyrex's tone) to be at all satisfactory.

We also had the double newb card playing. The first one I took as a joke, the second was making early excuses, particularly since it was relating to the roles in the game.

I'll go ahead and state that, for me, with this wide a range of possible roles, it's going to be difficult to see all possible RP-combination outcomes. I can handle cop/blocker/doc/vanillas, but I'm not going to be able to follow some of what you guys might come up with as far as "but if there's an X and he's a Y, then Z could happen because of G, R, and L, statistically." So if I ask you to restate or dumb-down, it's not because I'm not paying attention or am trying to trap you, but because I really don't have a grasp. //newbcard

Which seems like it could be making excuses for him later if he makes a "mistake" with his role.

[VP Baltar]

Jazz and VP also belong in this category, but I wouldn't mind lynching a lurker or two.

I'm a low activity player?

His MO town read is good, I agree with that

Reason specifically?

[VP Baltar]

As for town read on MO, I like Papa Zito's aggressiveness.

What posts do you read as being aggressive? What specifically in those posts is aggressive?

[VP Baltar]

@VP, while apparently I have caught your attention - SerialClergyman is scum y/n?

I couldn't tell you at this point. I don't like his atypical lurking, but he claims to be busy in RL atm. I felt like he was putting a little effort earlier, but he has since dropped off the face of the game.

[VP Baltar]

Anyone voting zoraster can now mention why aside from vagueries posted earlier, please.

I don't think any of my reasons have changed actually, nor do I think they were vague in the first place.

I think I'm going to have to more thoroughly review this Sotty case today because I feel like I'm missing something that apparently is obvious to others. Perhaps any one of you four can give me the highlights; it's that she is being reactionary to those attacking her and apparently hypocritical or selective in her scumhunting, right?

[VP Baltar]

How does that make sense Spy? Do you think all three of them are scum? If so, why would we not purge Rhinox as well?

[VP Baltar]

I am of the pretty strong opinion that we should not purge more than two players, at least for the first phase. Not knowing what will happen in the night phase is a big variable that I would like to see before we push more purges than that at a time.

That being said, zor's argument against it is silly. Zor, what do you think the probability is that scum could influence multiple purges effectively this early in the game when they are so strongly out numbered? My guess is that if the town gets at least on a somewhat correct path for day 1 (ie purging at least one scum), the other scums would have a hard time dealing with the situation in a way that did not make them stand out.

Going to start looking at the sotty case now, but I'd still like someone on the wagon who is around to help me understand the arguments better.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I'm just going to start from the beginning and address the points people are raising about Sotty.

The first is on page 4 by SC, I've already stated that I think this was a misreading and a weak attack. Spyrex double votes her immediately after this, which I still don't necessarily understand either.

Sotty then replies in Post 96. While I don't think her being annoyed at having three votes over an obvious misreading of her post is unreasonable, her linking of Spy and Serial is a touch strange. I don't feel that Serial was "deflecting from the Spy wagon" as she tries to put it. At this point, their voting seems like mutual exaggeration.

hrmmm, just spotted something weird I missed before. In Sotty's Post 107 she is explaining why she sees Serial's vote on her as an attempt to redirect away from the semi-serious Spy wagon. But in that post, Sotty, you say both:

This is pretty obviously a serious vote [by Porkens] and puts Spy at the head of the vote count with two RVS votes on him.

and

He [Serial] tries to redirect over to Porkens, who was voting Spy at the time, in a seemingly RVS mannor. Things were starting to get serious and he pulls this, I'd like to know why.

I'm not even sure I understand this. Do you see Porkens' vote serious or RVS?

I do think it is slightly weird that Sotty says she thinks scum-Serial would have been directing away from a wagon on town-Spyrex. That's pretty non-sensical.

*momentary side track*

Sotty was just a bit off - I don't mind questions, but those early posts weren't giving me those sweet home vibes. And, really, this Porkens-gate is a hoot and a half and I still can't figure out what Sotty is goin on about

I still do not understand this. At the time of your double vote she had said almost nothing other than questioning Serial about "why porkens". Had it been after her whole theory about you two being scumbuddies (but not really!) I could see your reasoning. As it is though, this seems like a bit of revisionism, which I hate.
*end momentary side track*

Porkens' vote in post 130

Sotty's reaction and flailing onto people on his wagon makes me feel comfortable with the vote above.

Doesn't exactly make me feel like he (she?) understands the arguments put forth and is using rhetoric to hop over.

That being said, Jazzmyn saying:

I'm also suspicious of those on the Sotty wagon because I just don't see any legitimate cause for it. Her posts have not been scummy and her wagon looks contrived to me.

Seems a bit strongly worded. Jazz, do you or did you agree with Sotty's logic at that point regarding her vote on Serial?

Sotty, did your read on serial change at all by post 170 when you said:

I wouldn't argue against a MO wagon at this point. I think the reaction to Spy's double vote on me was fishy. He just asked why me and yet didn't give any opinions of the action itself. Felt like he was waiting to see how others reacted.

You were sounding pretty confident about serial prior to this and I'm not sure why the sudden switch.

Jahudo's Post 189 stinks if you ask me. First, I don't think the quotes between Sotty and MO are comparable at all as one is asking about a wagon switch and the other is asking about the reasons for double voting. Jahudo says they are the same thing and Sotty looks hypocritical because of it. This is a bit troubling after Jahudo had not too much earlier seemed disinterested in the Sotty wagon. + scum points here

Hero agrees with this also, which I don't understand. *edit* and Spy *edit*

Nacho agrees (to a lesser extent) with the Sotty wagon, but doesn't say why. Care to explain?

Sotty, I think you had asked an innocent question to SC about his Porkens vote. And maybe you would have given an opinion on it before pressed to.

But two people asked similar innocent questions to Spyrex about his doublevote before giving any opinions on the subject. I think it's scummy that you aren't holding yourself, and others, to the same tell you put on Orbots.

This again does not sit well with me. The questions were not similar. Also, she attacked MO for fencesitting on the double voting issue, which isn't relatable to my "wtf" comment because I very clearly said I disagreed with it. Taking quotes out of context also doesn't sit well with me.

Jahudo, you need to explain to me how these quotes are the same.

---

tl;dr

Ok, that's pretty much the Sotty wagon. I still think it's weak. The ONLY reason I can see to support it is that she thought Serial could have been deflecting from a hypo-town Spyrex wagon. Sotty, I want to hear your updated opinions on this.

The stuff from Jahudo is trash to me unless he can actually explain logically whatever he is getting at. I don't like that lots of people followed on his logic either, though I guess I can see people not going back to look at the actual context and timeline of the quotes he's pulling.

I'll comment more after some people respond.

[VP Baltar]

lol, that's a lot of mega posts in a row. I'm sure the people already behind love this page.

[VP Baltar]

@VP: Since you said this, do you think zoraster is being active and scumhunting? Do you agree with Nacho's reasons for being on the wagon?

Well, that was on Feb. 3 and the only posts he has made since then were today in his theory debate over the multiple purges, so no I don't think he's scumhunting. More active, sure. The call for his own lynch does nothing for me. Scum do that all the time.

I think Nacho is lazily following the wagon. I don't know if he's town or scum doing it.

However, I do have a more interesting question for Nacho when he answers about his town read on MO.

[VP Baltar]

I may be willing to come over that way Spy (or at least support that as one of our two purges today). I need a few more responses from some people before I really get in the "these are the people that NEED to die today" mode.

[VP Baltar]

ITT,

[VP Baltar]

I think they are both asking about the reasons behind votes that aren't obviously stated in the thread. And neither question has a comment attached to it in the initial question post.

But if you are looking at the context of the questions and the specific arguments they are asking about, they are not the same at all, which is what I'm getting at. I guess I can see you reading it on that level, however.

You didn't say anything in your initial post: Post 80. I think your referring to post 87? Spyrex had posted in between those two. But if we're going by real time, you gave your opinion way before MO. It took VP about 20 minutes, and I'm not sure MO has given an opinion on Spy's double vote yet.

Yes, I'm talking about the overall timeline. My opinion was stated before Sotty's post, so a comparison between MO and myself on that issue is not valid in the slightest.

I literally fell asleep at my keyboard last night while writing my new game notes.

That's one strong beverage!

Also now is the time to

Unincant, Incant: Serialclergyman

for playing completely against his normally active and questioning town meta.

[VP Baltar]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 69#2098469

ZOMG, thanks!

[VP Baltar]

I'll take it as a sign from above (the Saints) that we should purge SerialClergyman because he's Australian and everyone knows they don't watch American football.

[VP Baltar]

I've seen VP, as scum in a different game, talk about a player being suspicious, then do a PBPA and declare a more townish read. (Though there wasn't a wagon on the player at the time, and he knew there was another scumgroup.) I agree with your conclusion about him right now. Somewhere in the middle, not seeming to be clearly town or scum.

In fairness, that was you and you were scum from an opposing team! Oh, how I loathe that I didn't join that wagon when I had the opportunity.

I'm not sure why I should move my vote off Sotty, to be honest.

Perhaps because the wagon is really weak? I deconstructed the whole thing and there is like one good point. I hardly think it should be the leading wagon.

VP should know better about my town meta, but I'll forgive him because he's pretty.

Nah, I think I'm pretty spot on actually. You have tunnelled hardcore this game, which is VERY atypical for SC-town on day 1. I expect you to actually analyze the wagon you are on continually and re-evaluate if needed. You're not doing that at all this game. You've just latched onto this wagon and have stayed on it until you could watch reasons develop for you to be there legitimately. That's not SC town behavior at all.

I don't even know a single other player you're suspicious of now that I think about it. It's page 11 in case you haven't noticed either.

Jahudo - made a good observation about Sotty, then eventually voted, then unvoted and hasn't revoted after signalling a possible shift to the MO wagon. That's certainly unusual.

What is unusual about that?

VP has actively defended Sotty from just about everything thrown at her. Is this conscious, or have you just treated every argument on merit?

I'm treating the arguments on their own merits. I wanted to look back because I felt that I was missing something so many other people were seeing, however, when I did look at the details it was obvious to me that I was correct the first time. I agreed with the only good point made on the entire wagon (Jahudo's) and pointed out why the rest are crap.

I don't have a massive town read on Sotty, but when I see a wagon that poorly formed, I'm inclined to believe scum are behind it, so I have no problem tearing it down and starting something better.

SC, realistically, pushing a decent push as a slam dunk that early with the high probability of backfiring doesn't strike me as a scum machination.

Well, I don't think any kind of bravado in the early pages is more than a null tell. What do you think about his tunnelling though? What do you think of the arguments he's made about Sotty? Have you seen SC as both town and scum?

I've actually been looking at SC as a possible lyncher.

Hmm, that is definitely a possibility and something I forgot to consider.

We don't need to purge SC, because I'd rather find the mafia-types.

Multi-purges! Lest we forget. I'd rather purge someone I think could be mafia but also lyncher rather than someone who could be mafia but also town.

[VP Baltar]

What do you think about purging SC today Porkens?

[VP Baltar]

For the record SC, I don't think I said anything about your activity really meaning anything about your alignment. I'll look at the links you provided when I get a chance to see if I think you actually tunnel as town or not.

[VP Baltar]

Troll honestly does seem to be busy with RL. I don't care so much about his absence at this time.

[VP Baltar]

The key to a lyncher is survival, in my opinion.

Not really because if your targets are NK'ed you lose. The key to being a lyncher is getting your lynches as fast as possible.

Anyway - Hambargarz is probably my absolute worst tunnel, so check that out. No frills and Quick and Dirty were both tunnelled but both on scum. If you need more then I'm sure I have them around. Oneo f the major purposes of the looking for town experiment was specifically to try to cut out that kind of behaviour. (The other, incidentally, was to be more active on D1 lol).

So do you think your looking for town experiment was a failure then since you seem to have returned to the tunneling style?

That's what I interpreted the bolded section to mean, I could have misunderstood.

Ah, yeah. I guess it was partially meant that way, but I was more meaning actively hunting scum than anything. Your posting less frequently was corroborated in our other ongoing, so I couldn't care less about that. I just expect to see you trying to figure out who the scum are when you are here, which I'm not really seeing with the Sotty wagon.

[VP Baltar]

I agree that the Sotty wagon sucks. As someone who has played with her plenty, including as scum partners and masons to give me extra insight into her thought processes, my gut really tells me strongly that she's town in this instance.

This read might change in coming days if I see something truly scummy from her, but I definitely think there are better purges out there right now (zoraster or SC or porkens, for example).

[VP Baltar]

Didn't we already discuss this? Until I read your town meta (I'm hoping tomorrow, just replaced into kind of a long game and I'm catching up reading there first) and I'm dissuaded, I'm sticking by my gut that your tunneling here is not coming from town.

Didn't I ask you a question today as well?

[VP Baltar]

There should be no more than two purges on Day 1.

[VP Baltar]

I assume that's directed at me Porkens. I would not like to see Sotty purged today. The other two need to go (pending some reading of SC's self meta).

Do you think I haven't made this clear?

[VP Baltar]

@ SC - looking at the games you provided, here is my response to them:

Quick and Dirty - Perhaps mild tunneling, but not to the extent of this game. you wanted to lynch ODDin or Amished and eventually directed yourself toward Amished. You also were discussing other angles. In this game you started with Sotty and didn't move.

No Frills Mafia - Again, no tunnelling here. You seriously vote no less than 3 players early on.

Gif Mafia - Nope, plenty of voting for different players happening here. This game is also a bit old to be used as meta for you as well.

Hambargarz Mafia- This is the closest resemblance I see to this game. You do seem to tunnel on IdiotKing here, but I do sense you at least probing other directions a little. Regardless of that, this is older than Gif mafia (almost a year old).

I only gave these a cursory skim and for who you were directing your comments/attacks at and voting for, so if you think I'm way off base in any of these please point it out and I'll try to find the time to look in great detail. I do encourage the rest of the town to look at these as well and reach their own conclusions.

The game you bring up, Webcomic Wars I did indeed tunnel on a townie as scum, but I was 100% convinced he was the enemy scum because our night kill failed on him the night before. You can see that by the mafia QT, a link of which was posted in game.

As far as this point goes, how do we know you don't think you've caught a rival scum faction here? After all, there is the possibility of third parties in this setup.

And like anything with mafia, tunnelling is a nice neutral way to chainsaw defend someone

What does this mean? Who are you chainsawing for?


Overall, I think my meta read of SC is very much correct. He has been out of control tunneling on Sotty and then when called on it he's suddenly not certain about her and ready to switch to Jahudo (for what reason, I'm not entirely sure). I'm not the biggest fan of cases strictly on meta, but I've played with Serial quite a bit in recent times and I'm calling my read good.

Spy, if you have a legit reason he shouldn't be purged today, I want to hear it. Just saying no isn't going to cut it this time Mr. DARE Officer.

[VP Baltar]

VP, I've voted no less than 3 people early in this game too

I'm referring to serious votes, not random voting.

The Webcomic example I had role based information to believe Percy was scum. We had an NK-immune member and he had mysteriously survived a NK attempt, so we assumed the scum teams were symmetrical. I obviously don't have any role-based info here.

Fair enough, but this is a semi open setup, so you don't really need info in your role pm.

But aside from that - say I was a rival faction - then I would be simply scumhunting my rival faction. I'd have no reason to be more or less tunnelled than any other time. Is it your opinion that if I was scumhunting my rival faction I'd be more likely to tunnel than if I was town hunting the scum?

Not necessarily, I was just saying that the excuse you were making for you doing it as scum in that game doesn't really hold water here.

What it does look like to me, however, is that you're more inclined to tunnel hard as scum than town.

You're attacking my buddy and not letting go so I'm saying you're tunnelled. Doesn't address the argument, but calls your buddy's accusor scummy and invites pressure to get them to move their vote. I don't know/think this is happening here, but it's in the back of my mind.

That's fair. I'm not denying that I've been vocally against a Sotty purge today. If I'm wrong and she's scum, then I'll have to face that music when it happens. I still don't necessarily feel that she is though.

[VP Baltar]

2) You have at least conceeded two town games where I was tunnelling. There has been one scum game mentioned where I tunnelled, but on someone I genuinely thought was scum. What makes you think that my actions are more likely to come from scum?

I would conceed that you tunneled in Hambargarz, I think the other games aren't all that equitable to the style of tunneling in this game. The fact that Hambargarz is so old though, is worthy of note in my mind.

And I think scum in general are more likely to tunnel. It helps them for a number of reasons, including looking aggressive and limiting the need to take stances on other players that may eventually need to be rescinded as the situation calls for. Also, I think scum are less likely to be conscious of the fact that they are tunneling because they are focused on simply getting a mislynch.

I also think you're reasoning for abandoning finding town reads doesn't quite hold water for me. Clearly you thought tunneling was bad from your early games, as you have proclaimed, so returning to it as an optimal playstyle choice doesn't sit well with me.

You learned this just now?

So you're sayingg that you knew for sure that it was in the game? When did you learn this and why didn't you tell the town?

[VP Baltar]

Also, please do something other than talk meta with SC. I'm not getting anything useful from that.

Did you actually look at it or you simply don't like meta? I think it is quite useful in this case, as tunneling like he has done on Sotty is atypical for him. Additionally, I don't think his own explanations for it (change of playstyle) quite add up.

SpyreX is full of vinegar and secrets.

I use that dressing on spinach salads all the time.

[VP Baltar]

I'm totally serious about that incant, too. Think how I accused Sotty7, Kreriov, and Col.Cathart in Picking Simplicity, for those of you who have read it. That's the same thing as this here.

I don't know what this means and I don't plan to read this game. Do tell.

But it's still there regardless. I don't think it's going to make amazingly more likely to be lynched, but facts are facts, right? I dunno, I just think it was a bit of an impetuous decision (though that doesn't necessarily say anything about alignment I guess).

Reaching! If it has nothing to do with alignment, why bother mentioning it?

Necessarily being the operative word. What do you think of Spy's reasoning for double voting Sotty at that time?

I'm not a huge fan of meta, no, because I do believe people's playstyles change over time.

Sure, definitely. However, what I think is important in this case is that Serial was self supplying this meta to back up his play in this game. It's not me going out there hand picking examples to prove my point. I think if you look at the games he chose, you'll see that the argument he is making (that he would tunnel as town) does not hold water in comparison to this game.

Also tunneling on him about tunneling is irony++.

Oh come on now, I have done plenty of questioning and looking around this game, but when I think I found scum I have to do my best to prove my point.

And I'm not vinegary, sheesh. POWERFUL WIZARDS exist outside the realm of normal taste-descriptors.

Umami?



I have input on the double voter business at a later date when I have figured a few things out in my head.

[VP Baltar]

I can live with these purges today.

[VP Baltar]

Anyway, I'd be happy doublepurging Jazzmyn and Rhinox now.

C'mon now, work with me here. One of those and SC or if I'm absolutely not going to get that, zoraster (though I don't think his lurking means anything any more). The point of two purges is that we can make everybody happy!

[VP Baltar]

It's not dangling Spy, he'll explode into a million molecules of light. It's very Zen in a way. You should stop being stubborn about it.

Zor hasn't done a lot, but if he's not here it's not an alignment tell either way. It'd be over his straight up lurking early in the game, which is a bit hohum. Maybe, but as a last resort I think.

Zoraster + SC?

You looked at the SC case I take it? What did you think?

[VP Baltar]

SC-quick, who is scum and why?

[VP Baltar]

Why does Sotty's claim remove her from your list altogether?

[VP Baltar]

As for a massclaim - This time I COULD self-meta in defence

As much as I want SC purged today, this is true. The boy loves a mass claim. Null tell.

(I don't agree it's the proper route today, ftr.)

[VP Baltar]

Are you feeling anything more on Jazzmyn since your Post 167?
Or was that post all about compromise to get SC purged?
Is it that you could find Jazzmyn or Rhinox more likely scum, or zoraster more likely town?

I liked Jazz's mega posts and found myself agree at times (though some of those times were because she was regurgitating my own or others' points), but since then she's done next to nothing...so it's hard to get a consistent feel either way. I'd put her in the category with MO of players who show up when attention seems to be garnered or they are asked a direct question. After that they happily slip into the background.

In terms of Rhinox, I find him hard to read. I think people have raised some ok points about him, but I feel like he's akin to me in that we naturally come across scummy at times regardless of alignment.

My previous post was mostly about reaching a compromise to get SC purged because he is my strongest read today, and I view Rhinox or Jazz as persons who I wouldn't mind seeing purged. I don't have the strongest reads on them, but they certainly aren't in my town category. If I got to choose both of the purges today, I'd probably pick SC and MO.

zoraster is completely null for me anymore. Too much time has passed and I really wish that slot would be replaced.

[VP Baltar]

Jahudo, do you still want MO purged today?

[VP Baltar]

Incant: Mighty Orbots

whatcha think 'bout that?

[VP Baltar]

I'd actually like to know what you think about that.

Well, I think my vote is clear.

Also, from post 403:

If I got to choose both of the purges today, I'd probably pick SC and MO.

I don't like the massive lurk from their hydra and basically not committing to much of anything when they do rarely post.

[VP Baltar]

I-1 for reference.

[VP Baltar]

mmm, brains.

So you'd like MO and Rhinox today, Spy?

[VP Baltar]

VP, you stopped suspecting me yet?

No, not at all. Where did I say anything of that accord?

Way to rush in here to save yourself though.

SC and MO need to be the ones to go today.

[VP Baltar]

Fun fact for all of those keeping score at home, SC hasn't mentioned MO even ONCE since this game began.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[VP Baltar]

Check shaft.ed's sig.


Anyhow, I thought you wanted Sotty or Jahudo purged. Now you're fine with Rhinox or MO.

[VP Baltar]

Incant: SerialClergyman

Someone should get off Rhinox too for the moment since he'll be purged tomorrow if you don't. I want to hear from Gammagooey.

[VP Baltar]

Scum team is MO-SC-Gammagooey. You heard it here first.

[VP Baltar]

You didn't revote?

I don't know what you mean.

Also, not sure I'm a fan of the "I'm sure I'll be hear tomorrow and can unvote then" ideology, but I'm sure Spy will be around and can move off.

[VP Baltar]

So you had no intention of incanting someone else tomorrow?


In terms of doing it tomorrow, it's still a possibility, but SC continues to astound me with his scumminess and I really think he and MO should go.

[VP Baltar]

not to save him, but to delay the lynch for one more reduction in the purge number so we can hear from serial again.

If you don't move it, it's going to happen tomorrow. If you don't plan on moving it, then let me know and I'm going back to orbots.

[VP Baltar]

Call me old fashioned, but I really only want to lynch two tomorrow. I do suggest that MO and Serial claim though (or whichever two are decided to be lynched by the group).

[VP Baltar]

So your role is Moychendiser then? And your alignment is third party?

[VP Baltar]

@Nacho

Just for reference, Troll isn't completely inactive on the site. MO should die today.

To be fair to Serial, I think I brought up the meta point first and then he tried to use it as a defense.

Do you have anything to comment on other than the main wagons?

[VP Baltar]

I'd like Hero to confirm if he received something. Even if Rhinox is the Moychendiser, he may not necessarily need to be purged. He could still hunt scum and then be purged later if we need to.

[VP Baltar]

I'm more inclined to think that Rhinox is town considering he actually claimed.

These other two knuckleheads scrambling to save their asses, not so much. Both need to go.

[VP Baltar]

Doing a more proper catchup now that I have some time.

I wouldn't mind if SC talked about something more about the meta point. Before that, he spoke about absolutely nothing (save all of about 2 posts), and then when the meta discussion came around, that's pretty much all he's talked about.

well yeah, you won't get much disagreement from me about that.

@Rhinox: Why did you give Moychendise out on Day 1?

Probably to try and distribute abilities.....have you read the abilities page?

Out of all these suggestions I think the 1st is the most likely. I am happy with a Rhinox purge at this point.

Based on what? Personally, if he was the moychendiser I don't see any reason for him to try and direct attention toward himself being the one distributing the moychendise. I mean, that rather defeats his whole purpose. Since he can only distribute one piece of moychendise a day, it would be very easy to calculate when he was close to acheiving his wincon and purge him before that. Claiming like he did would essentially be an auto-loss.

OK, looking at the possible ways in which Moychendising can be included in the game I don't see any great reason to keep him around. He's either a distraction or a detriment and I've got no qualms about him being purged today offhand.

I don't know if I agree with this. We can purge him whenever we please and it isn't really going to affect our ability to get rid of scum. Additionally, there is at least some chance of receiving benefits (abilities) by keeping him around if he's town.

@Spy - I don't think there's a reason for you to be cryptic about the doublevoter ability. Clearly there are multiple people who are not seeing whatever you're getting at, so if you think it's important for the town to know it might be best to just be straight about it.

Needless to say at this point the ability to doublevote means squat in relation to alignment.

I definitely agree with this.

SerialClergyman. His play doesn't particularly offend me here; I don't see the super tunneling on Scotty7. For day one in a game this complicated he seems to be looking about enough.

Seriously? Enlighten me as to who you think he's been looking at "enough" today apart from Sotty.

I find the transition of his stance on Mighty Orbots to be odd and I don't love his take on SerialClergyman at all.

What "transition" of my stance?

If someone blows the multi-purge, though, would that be a scumtell? I guess this goes back to my old question: is it protown to let yourself be lynched in a masspurge?

Hell yes it's a scumtell. Unless you have some fantastically awesome role that you think the town couldn't do without, then taking the purge for the team is the pro-town thing to do imo.

@Spy (again) - I think I get what you're saying now, but I don't know if that's really true. It could be tested very easily I think. However, you believing this does explain your play a bit better to me. Welcome to the town category!

I actually did not consider that a real moychendiser might exist in addition to me with the marketing (A) ability.

Really? Not at all?

---Hope you feel better, Jazz.---

I'd like to see what Jazzmyn and VP Baltar think. I'm seriously considering sparing Rhinox today.

I agree with pretty much everything you said in 504. The amount of weight people are putting on the moychendiser aspect at this point seems like a scum diversion if you ask me, which in turn makes me think Rhinox is town.

If I had Rhinox's ability, I would almost certainly use it Day 1 to try and hand out abilities if I could. Never know when a night kill is coming your way.

MO and SC need to be the purges today.

I don't like how quiet Sotty has become this game since attention moved away from her. What's the dealio?

[VP Baltar]

VP, let's go into imaginary land and pretend Rhino hasn't claimed yet. If he is scum, what do you think he will claim to be?

Something that isn't directly related to a third party win con seems like a wise decision. Double voter seems to be popular.

the transition of your stance on Mighty Orbots that takes you from not being concerned about my being about and engaging in exchanges with Papa Zito to our being a necessary lynch today because we're only showing up to answer questions or when we've gotten attention (especially as others are in the same category it seems.)

I think you guys have been excessively non-committal on issues over the course of the game. I still wasn't all that concerned about your being away Troll, since I could corroborate it in our other ongoing, but after you posted there a couple times and not here (nor PZ here), that seems suspicious to me. I don't see how having a declining comfortability with your player slot as you guys became increasingly on the outskirts of the game is such a surprise to you if you're town.

I compare it to someone like Jahudo who seems also to have gone from a neutral read on Mighty Orbots to thinking that we should be lynched in a way that gives me access to his reasons much more readily. I don't agree with the reasons but they're there to look at.

Implying I ever had a town read on you? Quotes please.

Additionally, you might want to look at where Jahudo got his reasons from.

If you want names of people that I think he's paying attention to nicely beyond Sotty7 I'd say Jahudo, Porkens, SpyreX and you as a start.

Any of these happened before I called him out on his mega tunnel?

Additionally, his reasons for voting Jahudo are incoherent 'I'm not voting Sotty anymore!' business. He hasn't looked into Spy, Porkens or myself as far as I can tell. It looks to me like you just went through his iso to see who he voted and tacked my name on there for good measure because it appeared a lot when he was responding to my points. You should really try to keep up though because now he claims he's fine with Rhinox or you getting purged.

I think I agree with the former at least.

Incant: Mighty Orbots

Someone (Sotty, Porkens), get your shit on this wagon immediately before Rhinox is the only purge today.

[VP Baltar]

For one, when Rhniox gave out his first piece of moychendise how exactly did he direct attention to himself? Yeah it would shed light on the moychendiser role, but there would be no heat directly back on him. The whole purpose of the role is to make sure everyone gets a piece.

I'm referring to his claim being what is directing attention toward himself. Since this is a semi-open game, it's not like he'd need to be too creative to come up with a good claim that would at least keep him alive long enough for him to distribute his moychendise.

You do however, have a point about how we can monitor his wincon and lynch him at will, but why put it off?

If people are quite concerned about it, then him going isn't the biggest deal in the world to me so we can maybe move on to finding the actual scum. However, the current obsession with him and some individuals making it sound like he's the only one worthy of a purge today bothers me. If that does happen and he flips town, I reserve the right to neener neener neener I told you so.

[VP Baltar]

Orbots is causing me to have misgivings on this page. I may be willing to go back to a SC/Rhinox purge. I don't think Sotty is viable or even a good decision at this point.

Spy, Orbots, what say you?

[VP Baltar]

SC and Rhinox is perfectly viable. I'm around.

Incant: VP Baltar

There, now we're not playing Kiefer Sutherland.

[VP Baltar]

Or should we wait three more days. I feel like a purge today would be good, but scum could also be lurking like hell atm too waiting for town fail today.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, MO, point taken.

Incant: No Purge

I agree with Jahudo though, I don't really see Rhinox as being important at all since he's not likely scum.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry,

Vote: No Purge

[VP Baltar]

No on Hero.

I hate throwing things together at the last minute, they always feel scum driven.

[VP Baltar]

I'm still not certain why compromising SC/Rhinox is such a terrible thing to you guys. I really don't think Rhinox is going to flip mafia and is a waste of time, but I'm willing to work with you.



On another note, nacho?

[VP Baltar]

C'mon man, I think you're town here Spy, but you're asking an awful lot and giving me nothing.

[VP Baltar]

I don't want a three way. I'm faithful like that.


This madness can't end well....If I come over to the Sotty/Rhinox purge and they both flip non-scum you're going to rue the fucking day tomorrow Spy.


What about Gammagooey?

[VP Baltar]

lol....rue the day!


Yes, gammie replaced zoraster.

So, your preference is gam/Rhinox or gam/Sotty?

[VP Baltar]

i prefer Rhinox/Gam.


Gam, I don't suggest you claim until asked. This could change.

[VP Baltar]

You guys are lunatics. SC/Rhinox. *crosses arms*

"Lunatics"? Wrong game. ~Vi

[VP Baltar]

I think its Rhinox/Sotty then.

Of course, the fact we can all agree on that is scary in and of itself.

Exactly.

As far as SC, I think there is support there for it. MO needs to come around though.

[VP Baltar]

Jahudo? SC + Rhinox? (I'm sure you've answered this)

[VP Baltar]

I can live with SC/Sotty I guess.

[VP Baltar]

Incant: SerialClergyman

There, it's started. I suggest whoever is going to vote Sotty wait until the last minute so SC can't hammer her ahead of time.

[VP Baltar]

Jahudo votes Sotty just before deadline (and you better be around! ruerueruerue)

everyone else, get yo biznazz together and put SC and P-1

[VP Baltar]

Yes.

Now we need to take baby steps AND the website is starting to get its hiccups.

I'm not really having any problems.

[VP Baltar]

both are at P-2. SC needs one more Incant.

Preview your votes before placing them everyone!

[VP Baltar]

NM

[VP Baltar]

Stop fucking with the plan!

[VP Baltar]

Rhinox (P-2) ~ Herodotus, Mighty Orbots, porkens
Sotty7 (P-2) ~ -INCANT-, SpyreX, Gammagooey
SerialClergyman (P-2) ~ Jazzmyn, VP Balta, Nachomamma8

Porkens playing dumb disturbs me. Get back on the SC wagon.

[VP Baltar]

I don't mind if you vote yourself.

[VP Baltar]

I'm here. I haven't caught up. Do I need to move my vote? Is there a good reason for the wagon on sotty?

Not really, but we're getting SC lynched.


SC, my above comment was for you.

[VP Baltar]

Double Incant: SC

[VP Baltar]

no one vote!

[VP Baltar]

yeah well, I'll explain later. I'm not living with not getting my way at all.

[VP Baltar]

Wow.

VP votes tomorrow kids!

Nope!

[VP Baltar]

VP is scum? Or lyncher?

I can believe that.

Someone's gotta play like they got a pair.

[VP Baltar]

VP is scum? Or lyncher?

I can believe that.

Someone's gotta play like they got a pair.

I haven't read pg 22-25.

It's quite a ride. I think I'm going to have a drink now. Needless to say, I wasn't please with the choices being presented and had to take drastic action even if it means putting my feet in the fire tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, for the sake of being upfront. I have one more double vote I can use during this game. I didn't come out earlier because I wasn't sure if there would be double votes beyond Spy and Sotty and felt it was best to keep that power in town's hands if necessary (I had lylo in mind, but that purge worked too).

Later when MO claimed his double vote I almost came forward, but decided it would still be better to have a secret weapon for the town.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry Spy, I was very happy to compromise on the Sotty/SC purge or Rhinox/SC purge, but you got greedy and wanted to take my interests out.

I did what I had to do.

[VP Baltar]

We had to have gotten at least one scum there.....right?

[VP Baltar]

twice per game I can double vote.

[VP Baltar]

...ugh it's late. that made no sense. I can double vote once in an incantation. I can do this twice before I become vanilla. Therefore, I have one double vote left for the remainder of this game.

[VP Baltar]

Also, I think that the whole thing Spyrex is confused about is because I asked the mod to clarify my role before the game, as it originally implied that I could only double vote once per game and only once during each incantation.

@ Porkens - My role PM has this:

(A) Doublevote. You may place an extra vote against someone. You may not move it once placed, and it will disappear at the end of this Incantation

in it twice.

[VP Baltar]

Except originally it said Once per game before each of them...which is why I asked for clarification.

[VP Baltar]

yeah, I don't think anyone should be taking double voting as a town tell in any way, but I thought I'd clear up Spyrex's confusion since I didn't do it earlier.

[VP Baltar]

...ugh it's late. that made no sense. I can double vote once in an incantation. I can do this twice before I become vanilla. Therefore, I have one double vote left for the remainder of this game.

Why did you make a full role claim during twilight? That doesn't seem very helpful.

Because there isn't much left to my role that is helpful and I wanted to clear up the confusion. I don't think it hurt the town at all.

[VP Baltar]

Happy birthday, Jahudo!

[VP Baltar]

Kind of.

And, of course, VP gives the only answer that doesn't mean instant death.

I'm still wroth at you for not slapping me when you saw what I was talking about.

I wanted to and tried to do it subtley (though I also considered that you could have been on some weird tangent I wasn't seeing), but I was really hoping to keep my double voting as a secret to ward off lylo for an extra day if necessary. But now that plan is spoiled I have no reason to hide it.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, we'll see what happens with his flip. *double crosses fingers*

[VP Baltar]

Hmm, I can't say I like to see VP Baltar double crossing people. Though I don't know who fingers is so maybe it's OK given the context.

<insert drum roll here>

And if he really is intentionally being clever with that and letting us know that he's won in advance then I'll be particularly upset at myself for pointing out that someone gets it for him.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I didn't double cross anyone...I said I was double crossing my fingers that SC flips scum.

All I want for my birthday is some scum flips

Don't deny the man on his birthday Vi! Have a heart.

Actually, no, you couldn't ahve thought that. Why are you apologizing?

I was apologizing because I didn't let Spy have just the two lynches he wanted.

I believe that VPB is lying.

?

Ok, look forward to whatever you have to say.

[VP Baltar]

Well that was certainly a mixed bag. At least I was right about MO. Hero really should have kept his mouth shut since I'm assuming he was killed as WIFOM so my purge could be pushed today.

Gamma speculating about what hero had to say is quite scummy.


I'm fine with being purged today if people have doubts about me, but I want my scum read to go with me.

I'll be doing a proper reread in light of flips later today.

[VP Baltar]

Was the description of your role that you gave in twilight a full claim?
If so, did you get the second doublevote in another PM after your first role PM?

It wasn't the entirety of my abilities. What is left may end up being revealed today. I've always had two double votes from my first PM.

[VP Baltar]

marker

[VP Baltar]

It's not very interesting, Spy, but I'll go ahead anyhow:

So how does "wasn't the entirety of my abilities" mesh with this exactly?

I can do this twice

before I become vanilla.

Primarily it was to avoid the NK if I was right about SC. I wanted to make myself seem like less of a threat.

Secondly, I have one additional (A) ability on top of my double votes. Given I can only use one (A) ability a day, I planned to use my additional ability at some point during this phase and would thus be out of abilities whenever I chose to use my last double vote after that.

[VP Baltar]

How am I admitting I'm lying? I just pointed out that my double vote is going to be the last of my abilities to resolve and then I become vanilla. Just because I didn't include every step in between does not mean I lied.

So, you know what's great, how you're scum trying to push what you think is an easy mislynch.


On to important things, did anyone get neighborized by MO? If you did, I suggest you claim so.

[VP Baltar]

Good posting my Jahudo. Glad to see my town read continually being confirmed there.

[VP Baltar]

VP: Does "scum" here mean mafia or any scum?

I was referring to mafia. I was still entertaining Rhinox as a third party, but I didn't see him as a priority, which I believe I had stated.

[VP Baltar]

Here's the thing VP. I still think you're lying, but at the very least, you are/were deliberately misleading people about your role, which I do not see as anything resembling town behavior.

You said I lied. Additionally, you tried to imply that hero saw the same thing when HE COULD NOT HAVE KNOWN WHAT MY ABILITES ARE.

There was nothing anti-town about my behavior whatsoever. That information was of no use to the town at that time and would have only helped the scum.

In addition, you put your own survival and opinions over the well-being of everyone else

This is a ridiculous exaggeration of the situation.

can you honestly say that we'd be worse off with you gone instead of Herod, who we both thought was town even as we're attacking each other now

It's not my fault hero said something stupid and the scum (you) killed him today to try and make me look bad.

you didn't even follow your own words and threw another townie into the fire.

I did want only two purges, but the shift by MO at the end of the day made me really unhappy. I saw MO and SC as likely buddies and if the lynch had gone that way and I was right, both of them would have gotten away scot free. I wanted to take one down so I could catch the other one the next day. I was only 50% correct, sue me.

You got off both Rhino and MO's backs after they had claimed, not offering MO in any of the compromise lynches you suggested even with your 2nd biggest case on him, and I think you figured Rhino was screwed eventually anyway.

My views on rhino were made very clear throughout the day. I wasn't even really "on his back" to begin with, just that I thought he could be third party and wasn't of a huge concern. And are you really trying to argue that I didn't want MO to go after I had been pushing for him most of the day? My prefered lynch yesterday was MO/SC, I said that multiple times and most every ignored me or said that they saw MO as town (you). I can't lynch someone myself.

In the last few minutes (15ish before the lynch), you ordered people around to try and arrange a last minute Sotty/SC lynch, one of the only suggested ones that would have landed no scum at all.

Someone had to get lynched and that was the compromise that had been reached. I wasn't happy about it at all as I was pretty sure that Sotty was town, but if she had to go to get my top suspect lynched, so be it.

How is it not town play to try and get a lynch organized properly?


I actually want to look back specifically at that final bit and see when Gamma was posting and what he was saying. I think if he is scum during that chaos phase it should be fairly obvious if he was trying to be subtle in his lynch direction.

In the meantime, Gamma, what benefit do you think I as light assassian would have gained by voting SC like I did? What would be my motivation to do that?

[VP Baltar]

I did receive my extra ability during the day, so I guess it could have potentially come from hero...but the ability I received makes me think it wouldn't have come from him. I know that doesn't make a lot of sense probably, but I need to think about if I should be revealing any information beyond that right now.

[VP Baltar]

VP if Herod gave it to you (which is what I've been trying to say all day) it would have had to be given out in the first 48 hours of the incantation and it would have been one of 3 abilities chosen by Vi, I wouldn't really be suprised if it seemed kind of random.

Trust me, it makes no sense for hero to have given me the ability he did.

I had read the abilities briefly this morning when I glanced at the flips, but I obviously didn't correctly recall who had what. Regardless of that, it still seems less than likely that my ability came from hero, though I will admit that it is not outside the realm of possibility and something I need to consider now.


I never called hero stupid, I said he said something stupid while we were in twilight that would obviously make him more of a target. I don't have a theory about what he was talking about, and I can see why you think yours fits.

To give you my perspective, however, I think I will claim what I received so you can see where i'm coming from. At the start of Incantation I, I received the Summon ability. I find it strange that Hero would choose that ability to pass on to me if he had three to select from unless he got a really weird set of three abilities. I don't know why a town player would give someone he doesn't have much of a read on at that point the chance to potentially give his buddies an added boost. I have used my summon ability already today, but I don't want the person who received the ability to claim so. Even if I need to be purged today along with someone else today, I don't know if it would be worthwhile.

Here's the thing. I want you to go back to the votecounts, and look at who's voting for MO and when. I may have been wrong about MO, but they guy I replaced (zoaster) sure as hell wasn't. From Vi's iso 17 votecount to iso 30, he was the first person to vote for MO, and until after the iso 30 votecount was only ever joined by one other person (Sotty). You were the P-2 vote, and dropped off the wagon same day I replaced zoaster and left the wagon so Rhino (who was in fact scum) wouldn't be able to hammer MO. I see this as a bus that you dropped off of when it looked like he had a decent chance of living.

Here's the thing, zoraster wasn't even in this game hardly at all. He voted him on Feb. 2 and his last post was on Feb. 5. You are so full of shit for acting like zoraster was pushing an MO wagon. Plz die scum.

Incant: Gammagooey

The obvious benefit would have been to get another townie lynched, and although you had looked suspicious MO would still be alive, with a lot of distancing from both your and Rhinox's scummy behavior, and could hopefully carry your team to the win, especially if you could delay your lynch by one more day.

So you think the scum strategy was for 1 partner to bus hard and the other to defend hard. And then in the final seconds of the first day I rushed to get one extra mislynch in there, thus forcing my buddy to bus me the next day and then we'd hope against hope that he could go through to the end on that bussing cred. You sir have an active imagination.

[VP Baltar]

What are people's thoughts on jazz, gamma and myself cross purging each other today?

I personally think that Jahudo, Spyrex and Porkens are all town. I'm less sure on Nacho as other seem to be, but whatevs. If there is scum among those four, I don't think there could be more than one. It would make tomorrow potential lylo depending on night actions, but I think it's an easy chance for a victory.

Personally, I think there is only one scum left anyway. I think the NK on MO could have come from Sotty's Gepenst.



Also, one thing I think needs to be pointed out about Gammagooey and his desire to have Rhinox killed is that the scum could day talk. I want to look back at his posts, but my guess is that if MO thought Rhino was going to bite it he was probably encouraging gamma to buss hard upon replacing in and then they'd both get town cred at the end of the day.

Just a thought for now until I look back though.

[VP Baltar]

Plus, there's that little matter of you having a double vote and that little matter of you being sneaky about using it, so you're not exactly at the top of my list for trustworthiness when it comes to you suggesting a cross-masspurge.

Well,I'm sure you don't believe me, but I can't use my double vote today. I'll prove it:

Double Incant: VP Baltar

There, next vote count will reflect that I'm telling the truth about using my other (A) ability today.

Porkens perked up during the deadline but he's still scummy for wanting 4 purges on Day 1, without even caring whether they were town or scum. As was pointed out on Day 1, a scorched earth approach benefits scum.

Eh, perhaps, but Porkens always shoots from the hip. How much experience do you have with him? He's actually quite good at it as town, so it doesn't particularly surprise me that he would want that many purges in a single day.

We got lucky, it seems, with a second scum being taken out after the mass purge, but unless and until that happened, we would have been in one heck of a hole today due to the mass purge and the subsequent night kill of another townie.

Yes, but we're not. Like I said, I think it was a good shot from Sotty. Getting two scum for three town is a very good trade off even if it's at a rapid pace.

I doubt that there is only one left. With all of the abilities and possibilities listed in the opening posts, and with the flips we've seen whose now known abilities seem to be in some cases quite counter-intuitive, I wouldn't even begin to try to guess the mod's setup but I would be surprised if there wasn't more than one threat left yet (i.e. SK or other third party).

The only thing we would need to be worried about is an SK. A third party is likely to auto-lose in the scenario I'm proposing because they can't obtain their win condition. Right now, I think the evidence strongly points to no SK. Let's look at the third parties:

Lyncher: Most likely this person's targets would have been killed in the mass purges, thus ending their chances to win. I could see people making an argument that I'm the lyncher (and actually quite surprised it hasn't been said yet), but I'm more than willing to let the town pick who I vote today.

Moychendiser: Unless someone claims to have received moychendise apart from Hero, I don't think this role is in the game. It'd be a risky move for a moychendiser to wait until a near lylo situation to start dispatching his/her wares.

Reporter: Nothing to worry about here since once we eliminate what I believe to be the last scum from the game, this role CANNOT win.

Researcher: This role won't win since my plan would never entail a No Purge to actually go through.

SK: Here's your sticking point.

Survivor: This is a possibility I guess, but I'm not exactly sure how one goes about even hunting for a survivor. Even if they did make it to a 4 player endgame, the town would get two chances to lynch him/her correctly since they can't NK. Still a 50% chance for the town to win in that scenario by lynching randomly.

While possible, that seems unlikely because at the time of Sotty's last posts, MO had 4 votes and was on the verge of being purged along with Rhinox, so it would have been rather a waste of her Gepenst ability to target MO with it at that time.

What makes you think Sotty was even online at that time? My guess is that she sent it earlier before the chaos. It resolves at the end of the Incantation phase, so unless she changed it at the last minute, MO was boned for quite some time.

[VP Baltar]

Porkens and SpyreX, I know you guys love the mass purges, but I don't doubt that there

could

be a hole in my plan that I'm not seeing. I don't want to screw the town if I'm wrong. Have you guys closely looked at it? Do you see any potential holes that I could be missing? What do you think are the odds that we have an SK or Survivor in our midst that could throw a wrench in the plan?

[VP Baltar]

VP, could you ask the mod whether the ability you got was due to last minute balancing or a game-related mechanic?

I can ask, somehow I doubt I'll get any kind of clarification like that however.

Sending PM now.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, got my answer. As expected, you can interpret at will. The mod quoted the first two rules under the 'Hawt New Game Mechanics' section.

[VP Baltar]

Actually, if you want to get all fancypants here's the real question:

What do you think the chances are there are 2 scum (or anti town, whatevs) left?

Me? I would guess one scum and one innocuous third party.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, that was it Gamma.

[VP Baltar]

oops, that was there too. I didn't actually look back at the PM.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: and before you go "ZOMG LYING SCUM!" the vote count is going to prove that I used it, so you can save your breath.

[VP Baltar]

I didn't really screw up my claim. This is the first thing where you have legitimately shown me making a mistake in my claim. The initial "lie" you had a problem with has clearly been shown to not be a lie.

[VP Baltar]

If you were in my position, wouldn't you be a little frustrated right now?

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm saying that you following up on hero's attack that I'm "lying" is bullshit. There was nothing about it that was a lie when I originally made it. It is possible that he gave me the ability (which I guess would have been Destiny's Bond, not Summon), but even if he did I never freaking lied about it because there is only one way it could have resolved, and that is the way I described. As I stated before, there was absolutely no benefit to the town in twilight to me claiming an extra ability beyond my double vote, but just because I was intentionally cryptic does not mean it was a lie or even scummy. The purpose was to keep me alive so I could pass on an additional and potentially powerful abililty to the town. Now that I have served my purpose, I'm fine with dying. It means nothing to me because I have succeeded in increasing the town's chances of winning.

Now, I can see how you might feel weird about me not recalling the Destiny's Bond portion correctly, but really for all intents and purposes Destiny's Bond and Summon are one ability. I had to pick two names and then select from three abilities to give to one of those two players. They are interrelated to the point that I had placed them as the same thing in my mind. That is my fault, but I don't even see what you are perceiving to be any sort of scum benefit to me from claiming what I did.

I did feel you were scummy in your push on me because I think the scum would view me as a damn easy target to get a mislynch on, which is largely why I am advocating that I die today. HOWEVER, I think Jazz's reaction to the plan is the most interesting. Sure, you could be bluffing about wanting to follow that plan, but you seem genuine enough. Jazz immediately wanting to dismiss it seems like scum shuffling to save themself.

Hmmm, I need to review the abilities closer I guess in terms of a mass purge. My intial feeling however is that town has no reason to save themself, even if they have the ability to do so. I guess there is the possibility of a scum protecting a town player just to get a mislynch the next day, but I don't know how much benefit that would even give them. Say they did and the other two players were purged and flipped town. That would leave 5 players alive (Jahudo, Porkens, Spyrex, Nacho, Player X). Then say Player X is lynched for not dying. That still puts the scum in 3 person lylo...which is where they would have ended up anyhow.

Still, other abilities are worth considering probably. All I will say is that if we do follow that plan, town players NEED to let themselves be purged.


Aaaand Porkens can double vote....ok.

[VP Baltar]

Mod: If one were to use the Gepenst action, could the kill choice be submitted during Twilight?

[VP Baltar]

That's what I think, but Jazz doesn't believe it apparently.

[VP Baltar]

VP, since you're suprised nobody's mentioned it, I might as well ask. If you were a lyncher, who would your last target be?

Myself obv. Why do you think I put myself on the to be purged list today? Am I bending your mind yet?

(I'm not a lyncher)

I agree with gamma that Jazz shooting down the multi-purge while providing no alternative plan is shady at best. Additionally, making the argument that multi-purges are trying to win the game on math is silly. 1) It's the same kind of setup speculation that is engaged in with any normal mafia game. We as the town need to use the tools made available to us to guarantee our best chances of victory. 2) In no way is this subverting the mod's setup. The purges were designed to be used in this exact way...otherwise Vi wouldn't have made that an option. 3) Purging relies on scumhunting and not abilities, which time and again has proven to be the best way to win mafia games.


I don't like how silent Nacho is being. Still don't understand anyone's town read on him.

[VP Baltar]

You should definitely name claim.

I agree with Porkens' purge choices since I know I'm town, but that's up to the town to decide.

[VP Baltar]

Hmm, I think Gamma is town if he has dissolution. I also think that if he really has that ability then he should just wait until tomorrow to use it. Treestumps are great for giving a confirmed townie in lylo.

Spyrex, how certain are you that Porkens isn't a third party?


I'm fairly sure at this point that Jazz is the last light mafia, so I definitely want to see her go today regardless of what we decide.

[VP Baltar]

Jury's still out at the moment. Dissolution is a good ability for the town to have. I'm not sure why Jahudo would be a good purge today.

[VP Baltar]

I agree that Jazz claiming now is a good idea. I'm personally debating if mass ability claiming wouldn't be a good idea so we could be coordinate the use of actions today and tomorrow, but then again I have already put myself out there so it's no biggie to me.

[VP Baltar]

Cool with me. (and there is actually a valid reason)

Incant: Porkens

ohh this better pan out

VP?

lol, from the RVS, really? I explained this a long time ago anyhow. I think Jahudo asked me about it.

My ideal triple purge is Jazz, Nacho, Porkens. Then if necessary Gamma uses dissolution tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

I agree. More claiming, less dilly dallying.

[VP Baltar]

Jazzikens......waiting.........

[VP Baltar]

Well, ideally, there wouldn't be a tomorrow. Also, depending on who lives tomorrow and has a double vote, you dissolving yourself isn't going to end the game.

[VP Baltar]

C'mon baby, I won't bite.

[VP Baltar]

VP should Jazz turn out to be the last scum I apologize for dem tunnelans.

It's otay. You weren't really

wrong

, but you could have also recognized that I had my reasons.

Oh hey, I called two of three scum! Not too shabby.

^5


Thoughts:

Sotty is the shizznit. I was really upset that she had to be purged Day 1 because I was like 95% certain she was town, but town was being dumb about it and I figured I could still give my benefits to Jahudo the next day. Leave it to Sotty to turn lemons into lemonade. Mad props to you since you basically won the game.

Jazz was in a terrible spot at the start of the second day and her refusal to be purged basically confirmed to me that she had to be the last scum. Sucks to be in that position.

VP, I'm sorry if you think it was stupid to contradict your statements about your role. But I had a reason to believe that you had made a fakeclaim -- I even double checked that your statement was meant as a full claim. The site meta tends to be that fakeclaims are scummy.

I don't blame you at all actually. I probably would have done the same if I was in your position. Unfortunately when I have a powerrole, I tend to not care about other people's information that can make my claim look weird. My main objective was to make it to Incantation II and give something beneficial to Jahudo. I wasn't going to be much use beyond that, so looking scummy for it meant nothing to me really. I probably should have played it better so Gamma wouldn't have had so many issues with me, but I still say that receiving Summon was a strange choice from Juls. Glad she didn't give it to Rhinox though!

Oh, and sorry about the avatar change. lol. Never occured to me that would be an issue!

When I put in the potential to multilynch, I didn't really expect almost half the player list to die at once, and certainly not two scum. Oh well~

Clearly you forgot the unwritten law of "Less chat, more splat". Thanks for modding. A fun game as always.

Notice: Anyone who doublevoted on the day of an NK was confirmed to NOT be the person who made that kill.

'doh....that should have occured to me.

Baltar fail.

No. I stand by my decision.

[VP Baltar]

I'll kill you regardless of avatar. I don't discriminate in my blood lust.