Seemingly Normal Mafia (Over)

[Jack]

Confirm.

[Jack]

Note: That was me demanding you explain yourself.

I chose Jack because he was one of the ICs in my first Newbie Game, and we spent most of the game trying to get each other lynched. There was nothing random in my selection at all.

Granted, it was still a POINTLESS vote, but not random.

Oh man! I though the name was familiar. I don't remember how that one turned out.

[Jack]

Lol. I take it everyone is just claiming random things

No. Why would you say that? I have absolutely not claimed anything random.

[Jack]

What do you mean by "not entirely randomly"? You are saying more than "he isn't closing his eyes and hitting keys willy nilly", yes?

And you too, flareo, since you agree with magnus.

[Jack]

Vote:magnus_orion

Your job to convince me I'm wrong.

[Jack]

And I do find it a tad fishy that your reason is apparently too secret for any of us to know.

I agree. I think Jebus said somewhere that we only have something like 18 days, seems to me it'd be better not to fool around with this sort of thing.

[Jack]

Farside asks several non rhetorical questions you ask, but the only question you ask him is "what is your opinion on this" which is unnecessary since it's expected he'll give his opinion on it. It's not effective to hoist yourself with your own petard...

[Jack]

unvote:magnus,vote:doc_potter

You posted in our other game, but not this one...

[Jack]

I've seen Doc Potter and DeeJayCee online

Doc just posted in another game

[Jack]

You saying that you are not throwing crap up to see what sticks?
Which is exactly what I see you doing here.

I see something like this as well.

[Jack]

I'm in another game with him.

[Jack]

Toon fighter's last post is scummy, especially the 2nd line.

unvote:DocPotter, vote:Toon Fighter

[Jack]

What odds would you give on Toon being the jester?

[Jack]

ebwop:

a

jester :p

[Jack]

Jester speculation is normally a scum-tell...

Exactly. Seems like a case of "my newbie partner just said something suspicious so I'll speculate that he's a jester so I don't have to vote him right now". Farside didn't answer the "why do you think he's a jester" question right away either.

"my head hurts" sounds like frustration as well.

And the timing of asking the mod for prods on other players...

It would be very convenient to find out two scum of course. But not unheard of.

[Jack]

Thanks for telling me the thread was open Jeebus.

bs, you've been in here for the teleporter games. Well, I suppose you could be using "watched topics".

[Jack]

I don't really like having a rival bandwagon just for the purpose of having a rival bandwagon. Don't buy the "flood of mafia to save their partner" theory either, that's just unlikely.

[Jack]

I did vote prety much out of impulse, and, although I did expect somebody to notice that and attack me, I didn't think it would get so far in such short time.

Granted this is a new player thing to say, but I do see expecting to be attack as more mafia than town. Also, voting out of "impulse" but spending time to consider whether someone would be suspicious of him?

[Jack]

Don't buy the "flood of mafia to save their partner" theory either, that's just unlikely.

Assuming magnus-scum, you don't think any fellow scum would be shifting from obligatory bussing to a competing wagon?

No such thing as obligatory bussing. And if they were it would be poor play to switch, having an early place on a scum wagon looks good on the resume.

I don't think the case on magnus is strong, and I think toon fighter is genuinely suspicious. As I think you do since you were voting him. So why assume that the votes on toon fighter are a "flood" of mafia trying to save magnus? Don't try and change it to "would

any

scum be on the toon wagon", that's impossible to say and very different from what you said.

[Jack]

It would be nice to have a read from a previous game.

[Jack]

What's the reasoning on the magnus wagon? If a flood of votes switches from toon to magnus is it evidence that they are mafia switching on to an innocent?

[Jack]

"pretending he's pro-town" is begging the question. "voting based on nothing" seems to be a holdover from the early suspicion of him, but how can one vote based on something when there isn't something to vote on? All of the votes from that stage of the game fall prey to that criticism.

Do you think that Magnus does not have basis for his vote on toon fighter?

As for the 2nd question, "no" is quite right, that's why I'm against the assumption that toon fighter is being voted a bunch because the mafia want to lynch him and save magnus. If anything, the mafia love to keep scummy townies around. Well, it's better for them to keep scummy townies around, they may be foolish and try and lynch them early.

[Jack]

I don't see how my reasoning is faulty when your statements after I question them...

"pretending to be pro-town"

Implies that you think he is pretending to be on the town side in the game. A pro-town role is distinct from pro-town. So you see how it is begging the question the way you stated it.

Sigh. Alright, I should add that he confirmed that his vote must be right based on nothing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being hyperbolic on page three. It's a pro town action if not a pro town tell.

I also find EB somewhat scummy, personally.

[Jack]

[quote="ElecrticBadgerer]So you're saying that mafia won't try to to lynch scummy town?

I find that ridiculous. [/quote]

Nein. Your theory only works if magnus is mafia, and toon is innocent. I believe the opposite is much more likely.

I don't believe that if a few people switch from one wagon to the other, that they are mafia trying to save their scum buddy that they were formerly bussing. That is essentially what you suggested.

[Jack]

What does that tell me? It tells me that the thing that made me vote-worthy was the wagon on toon. Which tells me you have some kind of vested interest in toon not being lynched.

This is the impression I'm getting as well, which is why I've been picking on that "a flood of mafia" thing.

It's actual discouraging me from the toon wagon, as EB could as easily be mafia wanting to appear townie by not being on a newbie townie lynch. I got a bit of that feel from some of his posts.

I'll have to consider it though.

[Jack]

What's the reasoning on the magnus wagon?

You weren't reading?

I would like to see a solid case. With quotes. My read on him was "making something out of nothing in early game to get things rolling". The response to that was "yes that's fine, but he was doing it in a scummy way". Essentially, I'm in the dark here about why people find him scummy, and asking for explanation.

Jack, I find it curious that after all your argument that scum wouldn't flip off of scum to town, especially if they had a townie-point early position on the wagon, you're now hopping on the idea that I'm doing exactly that. What's changed your mind?

@EB: Earlier, you kept taking my quote of "I wouldn't make the assumption that..." and turning it into "Jack, why are you claiming there aren't any scum that switched?". You are doing the same thing here. Don't.

I pointed out that scum being in early on a wagon against there partner is good for them. This is true. Would you agree that farside and RichardGHP, who had their votes on magnus and switched to toon, would have considered that? Remember, this is something to

consider

, not a claim that that they are scum, that magnus is scum, or that they would never ever ever ever switch.

Along with the other points I put out for consideration, they form a collective argument. The issue under discussion is whether magnus is suspicious, and whether the the people that voted toon fighter are mafia. I don't think you really disagree with my claim that the people who switched aren't suspicious, because I haven't seen you spend much time on them, you are focusing on magnus.

You say here that I'm claiming you are jumping from scum to town, that's possible. If toon fighter is guilty, you would be switching off from him to someone I think is townie, even though you would have looked good if he'd been lynched.

But this isn't really damning as you seem to think, because my statement wasn't an all or nothing claim as you like to say it was, and I explicitly said that it was forcing me to reconsider Toon fighter. As in, it's making him look innocent. So I did in fact take into consideration what I said should be taken into consideration.

The reason I still have my vote on toon is because he was suspicious, and farside was suspicious with the jester speculation in relation to him. Toon is also notably absent.

If I thought toon was innocent, I would be voting you, for the reasons I mentioned in this post and the last. I should consider that there could be multiple mafia factions, but I don't know how far setup speculation will get us.

[Jack]

Knee jerk reactions are more of a townie tell, unless there are specific circumstances that make it suspicious.

Somehow this is one of those games where discussion about who is mafia turns incredibly clunky.

I say we lynch Toon Fighter.

[Jack]

Actually, I disagreed with magnus when he first questioned that post (he said something about it only asking rhetorical questions), but I agree with him now.

His basic case is: mafia are less likely to start in on someone and poke and prod and get them to reveal something about themself. They are more likely to look for something to vote on. One is scumhunting, the other is scumvoting.

Now, that's a fairly high standard. Lot's of times as townie I'm not really feeling it, and just vote instead of getting into someone. Lots of townies do that.

But it is a legitimate case and a legitimate comparison, if you are attuned to it your gut can make the judgment call.

Your post was similar to the dougrim guy in that the main thrust of it was "this is why magnus is suspicious".

[Jack]

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-9

magnus_orion - 8

(Kairyuu, danakillsu, Primate, DocPotter, Seacore, Toon Fighter, ElectricBadger, farside22)

Toon fighter - 6

(Anon, Flareonage, Kyle99, Jack, magnus_orion, Nul)

Farside22 - 1

(bv310)

Not Voting - 5

(Kise, DeeJayCee, Konowa, Haschel Cedricson, RichardGHP)

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

---

Now you go off and show the similarities in the 2 cases and how they same in any way.

This is not a useful way of framing it. Of course the posts have similarities, and of course they aren't the same.

Intent is nebulous, it is perceived by the scumhunter (sometimes mistakenly) and lied about by scum.

You are essentially demanding that he provide quotes to prove a gut call.

There's no point to continued argument here. Others will read and make their decisions.

[Jack]

Farside, it is odd that you thought Toon fighter was scummy enough to speculate that he was the jester, and unvoted magnus to vote him, but now have your vote back on magnus. I don't see anything you've said about him as being near as strong as "is this guy a jester?"

[Jack]

Why are you defending someone you called making crap up orginally?

notice my whatever post when i voted TF. It means it's not worth arguing as there was no jester in the game. TF is also not posting so what you want me to just sit there and not question the other person I find to be scum?

See, farside, everything you are accusing magnus of is stuff that townies do. Knee jerk reactions, hypocrisy, exaggeration, "lying", being wrong about other townies. To say that someone is acting like a jester is to say that they are doing something that

no townie would do

. Whether there is a jester in the game is irrelevant.

TF isn't posting, so it's perfectly suitable to go after magnus. But why is your vote on him rather than TF?

[Jack]

@EB: Earlier, you kept taking my quote of "I wouldn't make the assumption that..." and turning it into "Jack, why are you claiming there aren't any scum that switched?". You are doing the same thing here. Don't.

Then don't be vague. Your posting is a study in evasiveness. Take a stand, make a statement. Despite the quantity you post I don't see you saying anything concrete.

I don't think this is a good objection. <--concrete :p

Your argument here would lead you to conclude that for any null tell, you must either consider it a townie tell or a scum tell. Although to be specific, I'm not claiming it's always a null tell (that would be quite a statement!) I'm just saying I don't think it's a tell either way in this case. That is concrete.

I don't think you really disagree with my claim that the people who switched aren't suspicious, because I haven't seen you spend much time on them, you are focusing on magnus.

I certainly don't agree with you, as I have repeatedly stated the opposite. A tell on a trend - that the quantity of sudden votes implies scum are in preference of the toon wagon, either shifting from magnus' wagon or from not voting to avoid it - obviously doesn't lead to the conclusion that everyone on the toon wagon is scum.

I don't remember you mentioning their names. You certainly haven't spent much time on them. It's simple, if scum jumped on toon to save magnus, then some of the people who jumped on toon are scum. If you think they are scum, why wouldn't you take a closer look at them? I'll offer an explanation: you were just applying a tell to the situation, without really caring about whether it was accurate.

Now he is holding this you had intent. Which clearly is an opinion he has and no fact behind it because again he has not show how or why my post had intent to begin with.

I noticed this is the second time you didnt' answer my question.

Does that make me mafia? Was my intent to evade your question because I didn't like it? After what you have said about magnus, how could you argue that this was scummy without being hypocritical?

Regardless of whether you thought it was scummy that I skipped your question, do you see the problem with insisting that magnus has to show intent? Ultimately most cases come down to gut, and the best you can do as explanation is point to what triggered your gut and give an approximate explanation.

[Jack]

But farside, I agree with magnus about his impression of your post (my disagreement about the time was over the use of the word rhetorical). Does that make me mafia too?

[Jack]

But farside, I agree with magnus about his impression of your post (my disagreement about the time was over the use of the word rhetorical). Does that make me mafia too?

How does my post show intent?

How does anything show anything? If I showed you a picture of someone and asked you if they were fake smiling or real smiling you could answer, but don't you think you'd have trouble describing why?

At this point, the biggest strike against you in my book (outside of the jester thing which is dependent on TF being mafia) is that it's a stretch to me to think that you would find magnus's accusation of you as scummy as you claim too. Scummier than someone you thought could be a jester.

It would be as if you'd never seen a townie make a case you really disagreed with.

I suppose I would have to do a meta read, but that's a lot of work, I don't want to...

Does that make me mafia? Was my intent to evade your question because I didn't like it? After what you have said about magnus, how could you argue that this was scummy without being hypocritical?

I answered your question. If there is a question you feel I missed please point it out.
And I find you a hypocrite for saying I didnt' answer the question right away even with it 10 minutes later.
So are you going to avoid every question at this point and continue to protect magnus for no reason then I would call you scum together and EB's comment about scum bussing and retracting looking more likely since you have completely backed off of magnus and using considations as a key to scum hunting.

I'm glad to see your cards on the table...I don't understand the first part though. We were talk about me evading questions, not you.

You know what my gut says to something I see like that. mmm that looks like scum pushing a crap case and while making others look bad in their views.

And where do his posts show that intent? You are literally being blatantly hypocritical in the same set of posts where you call magnus hypocritical and say you would blacklist any hypocritical townies.


This game is turning into a marsh here, can we lynch ToonFighter? What do you think about lynching toonfighter farside?

[Jack]

Game is too much jack-magnus-farside-EB at this point. I propose we lay off each other for the next 2 pages. Even if you are convinced of the scum to be found in here, you surely don't object to taking the time to look for other scum.

[Jack]

Seemingly normal indeed.

[Jack]

Toon needs to start posting at least. He hasn't been here since the wagon on him started.

[Jack]

Vote:danakillsu

Toon is a bit suspicious, but that was pretty opportunistic and weird, especially the "after magnus, of course" bit.

[Jack]

fos:EB

Toon posted last page.

[Jack]

unvote:dana, vote:toon

Checked up on some more of dana's posts. Was lynched d1 as vanilla town in one game (I might replace into that game so I'll check up on more there) and has a really odd post in the scummies 2010 nominations thread. Basically I can see her making these wacky ass posts as town.

[Jack]

unvote,vote:Nul

That's just inexcusable. "I'll follow the crowd"------->"still convinced he's scum" ??

[Jack]

I can't believe we lynched magnus.

[Jack]

This. Spending more time trying to appease those voting him instead of defending himself is scummy play.

Why did this wagon go away?

Because of dana's meta. I don't know his mafia meta though. But his town meta is just this scummy.

[Jack]

Here's a game with dana as scum:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12872

He seems different there then the game I read where he was town.

Let's get some more out of Nul.

[Jack]

Someone, in two senteces: why was magnus lynched?

He was a hated townie. And he was a hated townie.

[Jack]

It's not really the nul wagon that's bad. It's the game.

bv310 is just a bad a lurker as nul. Toon is scummy. Dana is scummy but has a scummy meta. Half a dozen other people are terrible lurkers.

unvote, vote:Toon

Things he has against him that other scummy people don't:

1) scummier here than in a game as town, unlike dana
2) actually not totally lurking, selectively lurks when under pressure
3) connections to other people in the game like farside, seacore, people lynching magnus

[Jack]

Unfortunately you could say the same for half the people playing, including kise.

[Jack]

Lynching toon is better. He's scummy and lurking,

and

has connections to other players that can actually tell us something. If he flips scum, I give farside and seacore greater chances of being scum.

There's no reason to pick nul or bv310 over him. And dana is scummy in all his games.

[Jack]

Right. He disappears at the sign of pressure, and people shift to someone else in the vacuum.

[Jack]

I'm willing to lynch toon or seacore.

[Jack]

I'm willing to lynch toon or seacore.

You've been on the ball so far this game and I've got a lot of time for your opinions, so I'm curious to know why you think Seacore warrants being lynched today?

He's been the very definition of bandwagon. As in, he really is just voting for people who are drawing suspicion,

because

they are drawing suspicion and look like a potential lynch.

Vote: Magnus

For the sole reason of getting rival bandwagons going.

My reason is as I've said. I wanted to put my vote on the second bandwagon while I read up on the game. I'm not listing the 'other' reasons for voting for Magnus because they aren't my reasons. Maybe they will be by the time I'm finished with the read, but they aren't now.

Anyway, I've read through and have decided to keep my vote where it is, for actual reasons this time.

Magnus is all scummy all over the place, lots of contradictions and hypocracies that have already been pointed out.

vote dana

Looking mighty dodgy there

I'm agreeing with all this.

Lynching somebody for scumminess is a better option that lynching somebody for lurking or anti-town. And dana just stinks of scummy appeasment.

[Jack]

I stand by the fact that I don't think Toon is scum.

How do you "stand by it" exactly?

You voted magnus "for the sole reason" of making a competing wagon against toon's wagon. Your only comment on Toon that I see is this:

I have no problem with Toon's wagon. It seemed like a decent day 1 wagon, although not necessarily a day 1 lynch wagon, but I found nothing particularly scummy about it's formation.

As for Toon's actions, I feel he 'could' be scum, but could also just be playing a poor game. This latest cop call fiasco is not great though...

Which is a very wishy washy "he could be scum, but maybe he isn't, that last post though" kind of post, hardly the kind of thing you could stand by.

Can you really argue against someone who said that you and toon were scumbuddies, citing:

1) vote for "sole reason of starting counter bandwagon" that later turned into a vague, plagiarised case.
2) wishy washy not wanting to commit comment
3) your current claim that toon isn't scum (because you've decided you don't want to bus him)

unvote: toon, vote:Seacore

[Jack]

unvote, vote:Toon

I think it's better than a nul lynch.

That kind of lurking (only 3 posts) is more of a null tell.

[Jack]

Excuse me? I posted right above you...

[Jack]

Anyway. I think Seacore, toon, and EB are scum.

[Jack]

I can more easily see Fate as scum now. Couldn't say that until another game was over (was absent from this one due to that one).

unvote:toon, vote:fate

[Jack]

fos:raider

[Jack]

fos:raider

My favorite part about your post was the part where you explained why. Lucky for me a fos means less then the post you typed it in.

This isn't proper haiku form, raider. 5-7-5 format is proper. You only have two lines and they are both much too long.

[Jack]

I don't keep an out of game notepad...usually I post them in game. It bugs me when people object to that.

[Jack]

Sorry farside.

[Jack]

Hmm yes I should change my previous post.

"You're welcome farside"

There we go