Mafia 110: Mafia in Hell, Michigan (Tied.)

[molestargazer]

Vote: RichardGHP

for trying to sway us with false statistics. Clear scum motive to bump off a townie.

[molestargazer]

@Everyone: If you are a cop with a guilty on Day 1, do you out yourself and risk getting NK'd or do you wait until you have minimum risk of being killed?

Not sure how the risk could be minimised. However, I may wait a few more nights to see what else I can get.

What is your view on policy lynching?

Generally a bad idea - unless that person's playstyle is particularly disruptive to my respective faction.

Do you think scum or town lurk more?

I think it's largely equal. People may lurk for multitudes of reasons, but when I do it, it's never role-related. I might not be bothered to catch up, or have RL issues.

How active are you here at MS?

Varies. But I'll pop on a few times a day.

WOW that's kinda premature in my opinion. Actually very very premature. fos:horrordude

Why do you think this particularly scummy? Do you not think a little suspicion is better than nothing at all?

[molestargazer]

@jbernier - So you do think that it's scummy enough to warrant a vote, but you think that doing so right now would be hypocritical?

[molestargazer]

Bloody hell, 8 pages already. No doubt we'll be on 9 by the time I finish this. Ah well.
Seems pages 6-8 are MOSTLY one-liners. Instead of going through it individually, I think a quick summary of what I think about all the players would be easier to digest - excluding me for obvious reasons.

1. SaintKerrigan

- Nothing much. Bad 'vibes' from Horror.

3. Lowell

- Seems, so far, to be just Lowell. No comment.

4. WRP_Beater

- Sod all. ISO 2 seems to be made in a joking way, but there's no contribution.

5. Nobody Special

- Jumped in quite late, but I saw more answering than I did contributing. I can't nitpick, but I can keep an eye on.

6. RichardGHP

- Touchy much?

7. ace5993

- Has promised a re-read and a post. I look forward to it.

8. JBernier93

- I have a feeling our views are just going to have to differ Re: this. I personally find voting, and putting pressure, at an early stage not a bad thing.

9. horrordude0215

- Seems a little new to the game, but I don't take anything he's done so far as screaming scum at me.

10. RayFrost

- Has either not posted or something's happened. Anyone help me out on this one?

11. Farside22

- No comment based on what I've seen so far.

12. Rikenslope

- Looking forward to this more significant post.

13. pman5595

- Made one post, which was jokey. Ugh.

14. DedicatedScribe

- Got a good vote from his P113. Nothing particularly good about it. But I like the analysis (the serious bits. I do not condone insulting nerds.)

15. Crypto

- Agree with Scribe here that he's a bit spammy. I find P128 perks my interest in that he only mentions such scummy vibes - and then votes on them the post after - when he's called out on it. Seems like a failed attempt at fencesitting.

16. SeptL

- Has either not posted or something's happened. Anyone help me out on this one?

17. Dr. Cyanide

- Has made a vote on Crypto with little backing to it - but I can't say it's a BAD vote as such. It's given a reason which I can understand.

18. Cirno

- Nothing since the alt debacle. IGMEOY.

19. Ythan

- Whilst so far I'm finding Ythan's questioning pretty useful, it does go a little OTT sometimes. For instance, P65. I don't really see why Horrordude needs to explain putting in a reasoning for his vote - and the continued pressure around vote 90 I think is quite unnecessary, as is pressure about smileys in P141. I took horrordude's emote as laughing at crypto's avoidance of explaining his vibes.

20. Musher333

- The promised PbP analysis covers 4 players. His reason for FoSing Cirno could be applied to lots of players - and he seems to slate Scribe but gives nothing.

Some questions that may help things:
@crypto - Could you please explain your vote in Post 43? Was it about the whole alt thing?
@SaintKerrigan - Any particular reason Horror's giving you bad vibes?

After a first reread through the thread, players: 1, 4, 7, 10, 12, 13, 16-18 (In orange on the list) don't have any notes by them. This either means there's little contribution or little to say about them after 8 pages. The notes I have made on them is made based on what they've said - but there's nothing particularly groundbreaking IMO. Take this as you will.

So what does this all mean in terms of my vote? Well, whilst I would not be against keeping my current vote, I have to say in terms of gut, I'll...

Unvote
Vote: Crypto

Not sure I like the post style, and I think the jumping after being called out is a little funny.

I may have missed things out, or misinterpreted. Please let me know if so.

[molestargazer]

Musher?
Also, don't take it personally. I've just not seen anything particularly ground-breaking that's happened, I've no particular criticisms/praise on how you play or the cases you're making. Things are just... OK.

[molestargazer]

RichardGHP and WRP_Beaten appear to be the ones nearest to the chopping block at time of writing. So, I'll take a look at them both here.
In my P204, WRP fell beneath the radar - Richard I found to be a little aggressive, but little more than that. Let's see what recent developments are like.

Up until recently, I hadn't paid all that much attention to the content of the Farside/Richard debate about the cop question. Judging from what jbernier noted, as well as what I previously noted about the aggression, I would actually agree with Ythan in that he's on rather thin ice. I will watch developments as I read.

About P232 and the previous argument - I don't think that a vote based on vibes in early D1 is something particularly scummy. I think until discussion really gets going, votes should be taken with a pinch of salt. Whilst I wouldn't rely on it in an endgame (it's led me wrong more times than right), it's fine for now.

Farside - Seems fairly town at the moment, put a good vote on richard earlier which caused him to crumble and as such made him look

like anti town hiding something.

@Musher - Could you please clarify what you meant by this. Are you saying that farside made him look bad when essentially he isn't, or that you think that he is anti-town due to this apparent hiding?

@WRP_Beater: You might be new, but you came in at exactly the wrong moment. Can you give us some thoughts on the game? Or mafia in general? Or, really, anything?

Yes, I'm new

here

. You know, I've played in 6 mafias, 5 playing right now, 2 in MS. But I've never survived till the end . I know tactics, but if I'm scum I'm never able to resist pressuring. Believe me, if I was scum I'd do something wrong under pressure, but don't misunderstand: I'm not forcing you to pressure me . So, I won't claim right now, even if I see I look suspicious.

Ugh.
"If I were scum, I'd be doing this" just REEKS of mafia.

Why is Beater not dead yet?

Because it's 11 to lynch.

I lol'd.

Not my fault if there are 3 new pages a day here.

How is this relevant to you reeking of scum?

I find myself agreeing with Scribe again in that Musher's PbP wasn't all that great.

Everybody should vote me now.

Not useful. I would call it bloody useless were it not for the fact it made me lean towards voting for him again.

Oh my God what a huge tunnel.

... Oh, dear.

I shouldn't need a defense, I haven't done anything wrong.

I had previously misdefined the term "Tunnel Vision", and that is not scum-like.

I don't like your over-aggressiveness in defending yourself. I don't think your original question was particularly pro-town. I don't like your "fine, vote me" attitude. Seems almost like scum telling us to call their bluff. I'm tempted to.

Explain to me on what fucking planet is misdefining a word a scumtell.

Jesus christ, calm down. It could very much be seen as you flinging around terms in attempt to get the pressure off you.

I've just reached the end of P13, and I have to go. Please point out any mistakes, as ever, or comments. I'll reach a conclusion a little later.

[molestargazer]

If someone didn't understand my post, I'll explain it. Just ask. I was saying that even if I'm not a newbie at all, I always fall under pressure.

Please do clarify - the original post seemed very fishy.

[molestargazer]

For now, I'm happy to see if WRP can clarify. For now, I think Richard's the scummiest here - see my above P336 for what I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: RichardGHP

[molestargazer]

6) Not for nothing, but keep your eye on

molestar

. He's done nothing wrong, and has sort of positioned himself as "that guy who every so often shows up giving observations", which could be worrisome as I think he'll be able to pull it off as long as he wants without much personal danger.

If you ISO me, you will notice I have posted every day since the 24th. That is as often as I can get online - I've been at college during weekdays, and working today. So no, not 'every so often'. As often as I can.

[molestargazer]

Who I'm looking at for scum:

vote Rikenslope

FoS molestargazer, Ace, horrordude0215

IGMEOY: Dr. Cyanide, SaintKerrigan, Musher33

Feel like expanding on any of these? At all?

[molestargazer]

And if I'm scum, wouldn't I want to go for something more obvious like cop or doctor?

Without going too far into WIFOM

Too late.

I essentially agree with this post by NotRay.
Richard's really a sticking point. Whilst I still think some of his posts are scummy, it's a balance of risking a PR.

It's my understanding that it's not a particularly common normal role.

Once again, this comes down to subjectiveness / outguessing the mod. I wouldn't use that as a reason to vote for Richard.

Anyway Riddick, why did you daykill me without even asking once for a RC? Anyway, I am (or at least was) a VT. I win with the town. Also, I know now you can't cancel the daykill. Believe me, I'm a VT. Why would I lie when I am daykilled? You've just wasted a daykill.

Usually you can't cancel a daykill I think.

Interesting.
As we've clearly noticed throughout WRP's previous posts, he isn't one for beating about the bush, nor does he appear to be particularly experienced with how we do things here. Sounds to me like a genuine reaction. I agree with farside.

At this moment in time, nothing's jumping out as being a better wagon than Richard. So my vote stays there for now.

[molestargazer]

Something tells me that Riddick's daykill was a test on WRP. and needless to say, he failed miserably.

Do you not think Riddick should be telling us this?
How are you of the opinion that he failed?

[molestargazer]

But I have been in the hospital as my GF had a kid...So little Rikenslope Jr.

Congrats!!

Unvote
Vote: horrordude0215

Definitely a better vote than Richard right now. And I'm starting to believe that smiley theory....

[molestargazer]

Would love to see more Ace votes, though.

Could you give a link to / summarise a case on ace? Not spotted one.

[molestargazer]

Please, PLEASE could you guys (Ythan / Horror) just hold your tongues for a bit? You're not helping the town by adding to this volume - I'm lucky I have no college work to do tonight so I can spend some time reading the 5/6 pages of bickering. I'm sure others won't be able / won't be bothered to catch up when they see how much there is to do.
If you've not made your points clear by this stage, you're doing it wrong. Let us decide.

[molestargazer]

I don't care what you're doing right now, the fact is, you've done a lot. As long as you don't do any more for a few hours (preferably longer) and give me / others who may be here time to catch up.

[molestargazer]

Apologies. Buried under a ton of coursework due in for tomorrow, not gonna be able to post tonight. Will catch up ASAP.

[molestargazer]

Right, I need a case rather than just coming in occasionally and making a half-arsed comment.
So, I think a good place to start would be horrordude's final wagon.

horrordude0215 - 9 - pman5595, Ythan, Crypto, Lowell, ace5993, MoleStargazer, JBernier93, Nobody Special, DedicatedScribe, horrordude0215, RichardGHP - (LYNCHED)

Obviously we need to discount a few people:
- Myself. I'm fairly sure about my alignment.
- Horrordude - Dead (Town)
- RichrdGHP - Dead (Town PR, although he never had a chance to use it)
- Crypto - Dead (Scum)

Which leaves us with 7 potentials:
pman5595, Ythan, Lowell, ace5993 (Now Kison), Jbernier93, Nobody Special, DedicatedScribe.

ace5993 / Kison

Made a grand total of 4 posts before he was replaced, 3/4 of which include some sort of apology for not posting more. There's really very little I can analyse here.
His vote for horrordude consisted of the following:

For now, Vote: horrordude0215 needs to die.

Mmhm. Seems to be a clear bandwagon vote. But looking at possible motives, it could just as likely be an 'Oh, shit, I'd better post content' than an 'Oh, I could just bump him off and lurk out the day'.
Kison I can't see anything wrong with. So let's move on.

SCUM RATING: Mild to Moderate.

pman5595

Voted horrordude quite early on. Admittedly, so did Crypto - but it doesn't exactly stink of wagon-hopping. The vote was based partly on his own prior meta about noob-scum, but I can't really blame him for doing so.
I find his 'ownership of the wagon' comments (ISO 15 & 16) a little strange. I can honestly see no scum motive for that. He's probably made more posts with content than I have.

SCUM RATING: Pretty low.

Ythan

Jesus, 302 posts?! I'll be damned if I'm reading every single one, even if they are mostly one line. From what I've seem of Ythan, he finds a case and pushes. Hard. Sometimes I think it goes over the line, but I don't think it's particularly scummy.
His arguing is perhaps anti-town, I did get a bit pissed off with it, and yes, there's a fine line - but I don't think it's meant to harm our efforts.
This can be one I can come back to if necessary and do a proper read.

SCUM RATING: Mild to Moderate.

Lowell

Aw, I'm dreading this one. Despite some less-than-useful posts, there are still little chunks of gold in there, such as ISO3. Whilst it looks messy, there's some good analysis in there. ISO6 also makes a good point about scum amongst inactives (and it certainly makes me look at my scumrating for ace).
All in all, typical Lowell, but I like what happens when a useful post is made.

SCUM RATING: Mild.

Jbernier93

Puts pressure on horror early for a 'premature' vote. He doesn't follow on with a vote for a while afterwards, so I can hardly take it as starting a wagon - and I can see where he's coming from.
This from ISO 10 raised an eyebrow:

Well, if Ythan's post were really "something sily & of no consequence which lacks sense and/or significance," then you wouldn't bother to go look up which players correspond to the numbers he was looking to.

Surely someone attacking you warrants a response regardless of how apparantly silly it is? Do you not think that a response in that case would be in fact necessary in that pointless attacks could be a scumtell?
Defends WRP on a principle I agree with in that I don't think his newbiness = scummy. (See ISO 10-14)
Then there's a bit of a quick turn in ISO 19 (in a matter of a day or so), to a vote because 'his actions don't make sense' - surely this is exactly the reason you were defending him earlier, whether he's admitted to playing before or not?
Oh. Another unvote in ISO 24, because "he's such a newb", before heading over to Horror - at the time when the horror wagon was really picking up some momentum, and we were heading towards a lynch.

SCUM RATING: Moderate to Heavy
For the wagon hopping regarding WRP, and the jump onto Horror near the end.

Nobody Special

Decides to vote for horror because he's "sick of the bickering" ISO 21.
I don't like his '7-minute gap' suspicion.
Either I'm getting lazier as the night goes on, or he really is nobody special.

SCUM RATING: Moderate-ish, for the reasons above.

Dedicated Scribe

In my first big analysis post, I labelled this guy as being pretty town.
I don't understand this (ISO 8)

In actuality, it isn't timely or convenient, as he's getting votes right now O.o

His join date kinda removes this point, however. Ill also FoS WRP_ Beater.

Could you please exlpain? Seems like a little fence-sitting.

Richard and Mr. Beater are on my more realistic hitlist for today. Shall we?

unvote; vote WRP_Beater

I don't know why I'd rather vote Beater. Mainly because I feel the attack on him is more easy to understand, and the one on Richard could be sensationalized. I don't have enough time to look on that, so I'll go with the simpler choice.

This bit also rubs me the wrong way. It sounds like he just doesn't want to put the effort in to push a case he likes, but instead goes for an easy and 'simple' one. Surely that isn't how you catch scum?

A test? I think it makes WRP seem more nooby. If he's scum, why does he continue to rely on this noob facet?

Thinking on this, I'll unvote WRP_Beater at this point.

Don't call me contradictory.

Uh... well, um...
*Awkward pause*
Let's call it coming round to sense in a way that you, uh, wouldn't have been a particular fan of earlier?

In ISO 17, Scribe seems to defend horror quite a lot, and later votes. I can't really blame him, and I can't really work out if this is a scumtell or not.

I spend 3 posts explaining my reasoning for horror-vote, and you are still disturbed?

Could you please point me to these? To ease my laziness? I have been writing this post for around an hour now. Have pity. Please. You know you want to. It might help. Like, lots.

SCUM RATING: Moderate-Ish.


From this,

Vote: Jbernier13

Please explain what I've pointed out. Or you could just die and flip scum and make me happy. S'up to you.

[molestargazer]

@Konowa - Simulpost?

Unvote: WRP_Beater. Vote: Farside22.

You're an SK.

What?

[molestargazer]

I was simply showing how GHPs statement contradicted himself.

My point wasn't that he contridicted himself about his feelings towards it - my point was your making him look scummy over replying to an attack on him, no matter how fluffy it might have been.

His first posts seemed like he was a noob who didn't know how to play the game quite. Later posts made it seem like he was making no effort at even trying to figure out how to play.

Whether he was making an effort or not, he was still in fact a newb. Your earlier point still stands, that's a contradiction, no?

I had better fish to fry.

Like lynching townies?
My point was, you firstly decided he wasn't, then he was, then decided he wasn't and switched onto horror, who was revealed as town. Seems scummy to me.

93 DAMMIT!

What?

Will catch up on the recent developments shortly.

[molestargazer]

Actually, no. A newb is a player who is trying to play the game properly. WRP hasn't.

newb/noob. You understand what I meant.

[molestargazer]

@Jb - Could you please point out which posts of WRP's indicated to you before your vote for him in ISO19 that he had no intention of playing, and why?

[molestargazer]

His last post before that made no sense. He made no effort to respond to anything going on in the thread between that point and my vote. And he has since continued his behavior.

Before your ISO19, he responded to my question about his scummy-looking post (Link), and the one before was asking if people understood his scummy post (Link), clearly responding to the pressure. Before that, there was this. So, I disagree that his posts before your ISO19 didn't make sense, and whilst he won't be up for a scummy for Paragon of Mafia Hunting, he made some small contributions - which makes me wonder why, really, you switched your vote to him in ISO19 other than the fact that he would be an easy target.

What he's done since then is a moot point, that's not what I'm asking about.

[molestargazer]

I don't understand what you don't see... From what I saw yesterday, he seemed to be making really large posts that came to the same consensus that everyone else did. Seems generally fake to me and like he's trying to get away with bandwagoning by being wordy. Feels more "trying to seem protown" than "town."

Sorry if you don't like it, but that's just how I play a lot of the time. I fall behind, and have to do mega catch-up posts. I find them quite useful.
Perhaps you'll see a better side of me by the time you catch up to now - but really, have you noticed nothing better than me up to Page 45?

[molestargazer]

Top two:
Jbernier93 - I've already covered this pretty thoroughly. I have a feeling there's a point about this I haven't answered, which I'll take a look at somepoint.
SaintKerrigan (Pre-Replacement) - Didn't like the reaction to Ythan's "crumb", dislike ISO88 generally. Bad vibes here.

The NS wagon seems to be one that has slipped by me without much attention being paid to it. Judging from Unsight's post, I can't say I'd be opposed to it. It would be interesting to see the slip to judge connections with players.

[molestargazer]

Why are you damned if you don't paraphrase? I don't get that.

[molestargazer]

EBWOP: Why are you damned if you

do

*.

[molestargazer]

@MoleStargazer: If I paraphrase my win condition, there is about an equal chance that half the living (town) players will think I've done it wrong, therefore I'm scum. The other half will think I've paraphrased correctly, thinking (knowing?) I'm town. I can't win for losing, therefore, I'm not answering.

It would have to be one HELL of a paraphrase for half the townies alive to think you've done it wrong.
The half who think you did it right may well unvote, may well move to other wagons, so saving your life and letting us lynch a better person.

I really don't see why you're not doing this.

How about, give me a paraphrase or I'll hammer? Your inability to produce this makes me think you don't HAVE it, making me a lot happier about this wagon.

[molestargazer]

Vote: Nobody Special

I must assume you don't know the win condition, therefore you're scum.

[molestargazer]

In fact, I'll probably need to

Unvote
Vote: Nobody Special

To ensure that works.

[molestargazer]

There's not necessarily a third death. The dude at the door could've got out of the way.

@Yesterday's lynch - Oh, balls.

[molestargazer]

prod MOLE(st) too please.

Ha ha.

Here. Been lazy recently. I need to pick up my case on jb and take a look at my other suspects yesterday and how they fit in with NS's lynch.
I will do my best to get something substantial down tonight.

[molestargazer]

Restore my hope in players who promise content.

I aim to do so.

Time to revisit suspects from yesterday. Below is a quick summary of their names and their 'Scum rating' from my ISO17.

horrordude0215 - 9 - pman5595, Ythan, Crypto, Lowell, ace5993, MoleStargazer, JBernier93, Nobody Special, DedicatedScribe, horrordude0215, RichardGHP - (LYNCHED)

Nobody Special - 9 - Ythan, Kison, DedicatedScribe, Riddick, Rikenslope, Farside22, Konowa, MoleStargazer, Unisght - (LYNCHED)

Discounting NS, who is dead,

ace/Kison:

Mild/Moderate (2)

Pman:

Low (1)

Ythan:

Mild/Moderate (2)

Lowell:

Mild (1)

Jbernier:

Moderate/Heavy (1)

Dedicated Scribe:

Moderate (2)

Bringing these together:
DedicatedScribe, Ythan, Kison/Ace all have been on both wagons and have a scumrating above Low/Mild. I definitely feel this warrants a little more of a look, but do not think that I'm abandoning my case on jbernier93. That will resume when I'm done.

DEDICATEDSCRIBE: Both Wagons, Moderate Scumrating Yesterday

Now, I never picked up his response to my comments/criticism in ISO17, as far as I can remember. Now, to ease everyone's pain in reading this, I'll be quoting my original point in ISO17, followed by his response, the full text of which can be seen HERE. Apologies for any confusion I may cause.

I don't understand this (ISO 8)

In actuality, it isn't timely or convenient, as he's getting votes right now O.o

His join date kinda removes this point, however. Ill also FoS WRP_ Beater.

Could you please exlpain? Seems like a little fence-sitting.

1. At first, I thought WRP was town. Right now, I'd like to think my gut read was right. I made a post saying that I thought WRP was town.

I was responding to someone saying WRP's entrance was "convenient". I found that ludicrous that someone would vote for someone for a "convenient entrance", when in fact, this entrance was not convenient at all.

And I made a point about the join date, because it could have been possible WRP was lurking, and posted b/c he's a noob like that.

Thank you for the explanation.
This still seems to me a lot like fence-sitting. You made post stating that he was town, and backed him up when someone criticised his convenient entrance, and yet still found something fishy enough to go for an FoS? I don't quite understand how his joindate could mean he was lurking, or how it can possibly remove your defence.

Richard and Mr. Beater are on my more realistic hitlist for today. Shall we?

unvote; vote WRP_Beater

I don't know why I'd rather vote Beater. Mainly because I feel the attack on him is more easy to understand, and the one on Richard could be sensationalized. I don't have enough time to look on that, so I'll go with the simpler choice.

This bit also rubs me the wrong way. It sounds like he just doesn't want to put the effort in to push a case he likes, but instead goes for an easy and 'simple' one. Surely that isn't how you catch scum?

2. It's exactly how I find scum. Build pressure upon likely scum, and analyze the response. It's just one of my strategies, when I don't have the best lead/attack ever. Not my only, or best, way.

I understand how pushing and placing pressure on a suspect is a good thing. What I'm asking for is why you chose the easy way of doing it instead of going after and putting pressure on Richard, who could just as likely be scum. It looks like you took the easy way out to try and secure a lynch.

A test? I think it makes WRP seem more nooby. If he's scum, why does he continue to rely on this noob facet?

Thinking on this, I'll unvote WRP_Beater at this point.

Don't call me contradictory.

Uh... well, um...
*Awkward pause*
Let's call it coming round to sense in a way that you, uh, wouldn't have been a particular fan of earlier?

3. I don't completely understand that.

I'm calling you Contradictory. First you said he was town but FoSed him, then you voted him because it's easy, then unvoted again for his newbiness.

I spend 3 posts explaining my reasoning for horror-vote, and you are still disturbed?

Could you please point me to these? To ease my laziness? I have been writing this post for around an hour now. Have pity. Please. You know you want to. It might help. Like, lots.

4. Sigh. You know I'm lazy, too, right?

post 52, 49, 45 (I was basically searching for a reason to either vote, or mount an attack on Ythan).

Post 52 is the biggest explanation. Speaking of which, I'ma talk about that horror wagon pretty soon.

Right, I'll go through each one of these.

To your ISO 51: Dammit.

On further note, I think horror could be scum. I voted him because tomorrow will not be profitable if he is left alive, and probably tonight, also.

Furthermore, I'm 50% sure he is scum.

With this in mind, I find it necessary to lynch horror despute my doubt of his alliance. If a wagon began on someone else at this time, I would doubt its success, as the weekend is coming up. D1 would be a disaster, and we'd learn little from the wagon on horror, who is better off dead.

You think, then are 50% sure, then are happy to lynch, then he's better off dead? You sound like you're trying to convince yourself.
Could you please explain why you thought tomorrow would be less profitable when he was dead? This doesn't really give much of a reason for lynching him other than wanting him out of the way.

Anyone who doesnt think horror is scum, vote for him anyway. As I said,

he is a safe lynch, being VT

, nooby, and [sorry to say] distracting. It is also D1.

You seem far too sure of him being VT.

Getting bored with this. If you want, say no to the above, and I'll see how long it takes to get an answer from someone else.

Oh, and vote horror

Werent you supposed to be doing something?

...
I've spotted no actual reasonings for your vote on horror other than wanting him out of the way to get D1 out of the way and to ease confusion.

Now, I need to analyse his play on D3.

Ythan, for someone so intelligent, you seem to keep pulling duds. But, I suppose, so have I.
But still. Weird how the one who is night killed is the one you plan to have lynched the following day. First Richard, then Saint Kerrigan.

It can't be a coincidence, but WIFOM nonetheless...

Mega fence-sit.

voting Lowell for (in part) giving 2 scum town points

...stupid. Sorry.

Could you please explain why you think this is stupid?

oh noes ythan has tarped me! Now he knows my evil plan to destroy the town by noting strange NK patterns!

...

Townies (except perhaps those who make obv that they know what they're doing) make more BIG slips than scum. It's the small slips that seem to be more effective scumtells. Small and plentiful. Disagree if you will.

Going to have to disagree, really.

People of interest:
Ythan (He's on my ttoopp. He's also my personal Yoy. No, you don't get to know what that means)
rikenslope (the spell check says to call you glockenspiel ^^)
jbearner (because I have a habit of ignoring the low people on my list, who often happen to be scum)

Could you please explain why (apart from jbernier)? A brief summary for both Ythan and Rik would be lovely.

I picked up far more than I thought I would. It seems as though I'm going to have to discard my earlier town-vibe. That WAS D1.

Summary

- Fence-Sitting
- Contridictions
- Seemed WAY too sure of horror being town.
- Little reasoning for suspicions, both horror and recently.

YTHAN: Both Wagons, Mild/Moderate Scumrating Yesterday

What makes Ythan so bloody difficult to ISO is that he alone has made

21 PAGES

of posts. So I'm blaming Ythan for why this game is so long.
Yesterday, I pointed out his aggression and fierce pushing on those he thought were scum.

He seemed overly concerned about the flavour first thing today, but I don't see that as a scumtell.

Page 61 and Konowa finds nothing better to vote for.

In response to Konowa's case on Lowell. I find this kinda slander a little pointless - at least a case is being made?

He claims he's "Found scum" on DedicatedScribe, but then later goes onto vote Rik.
@Ythan - Do you still think DS is scum?

I still think that desipte what he's doing, his scumhunting is inherantly pro-town.

I'm going to switch my vote to Beater for now because he's scummy and I have not gotten to my other suspects, or most players at all, yet in this round of rehashing old material.

unvote vote WRP_Beater

Put here for later reference - although by this point already you seem to have found a lot, particularly on DS who you made several posts criticising. I'm a little confused here.

His posting's quite difficult to read in ISO in that he rarely references who he's attacking.
Overall, my ScumRating on Ythan stays as it is. I think there's better targets to pursue.

ACE/KISON: Both Wagons, Mild/Moderate Scumrating Yesterday

Ace I already covered definitively (all 4 posts, if I remember rightly) in ISO17, which was what earned him this scumrating. Time to take a look at Kison.
My first thought when I clicked the button to view Kison in ISO was seeing his avatar and going "Oh, that guy". Seems fairly low-key, but I can't remember seeing anything particularly bad. I'll take a look.

DedicatedScribe looks good. Good vote on Musher333, good FoS on crypto. Active, posts are relevant. Need to do more thorough isolated analysis.

I agree with Ythan, I'd like an up-to-date viewpoint on these players.

Quite frankly, there isn't much I've seen up to ISO 10 that is comment-worthy. The case on NS he makes is pretty good.
In light of this, his new scumrating is MILD.

I was going to continue my case on Jbernier, but
- I really, really can't be bothered right now. Perhaps tomorrow.
- I've found a more likely scum.

Vote: DedicatedScribe

(Made big to hope the mod notices it in amongst the bolding in this post.)

As always, please point out any errors / problems in this post, I'm tired and cba proof-reading it.

[molestargazer]

Nothing says that scum will have a stronger tendency to be "over aggressive", especially not when it comes to self defense. Why would scum have any more motivation to defend themselves than town?

Just my opinion, I think scum are more likely to be aggressive in that they panic and try and be aggressive against others to deflect attention.

I don't see anything that suggests frustrated town would be more willing to go for the "i told you so" line than scum.

In my personal experience off-site, scum use this a lot. And it's definitely not pro-town behaviour - it's essentially taunting people to try and get them to unvote. Definitely a scum tactic IMO.

he picked out a few posts to respond to and then decides to hop on board.

Just how I play. Pick out things I find scummy, if it's scummy enough, vote.

- Immensely dislike his horrordude vote. Provides no reasons of his own other than 'agreeing with the smiley theory'. Terrible and opportunistic.

I'm fairly sure I provided reasons before this, or at least a little bit of analysis. I'll go back and check.

- I'm spotting major hypocrisy in his accusation that ace's horrordude vote "Seems to be a clear bandwagon vote". Really??? Molestargazer provided essentially no reason for his vote. See above.

I at least gave a reason. Ace gave sod all of a reason, which made me think that he was purely on the bandwagon just as it could lead to a townie lynch, and not for any particular reasons of his own.

So my question is, if that chunk of text is truly problematic, why did you seem to find it valid enough to justify your view that Richard is on thin ice? Am I misreading something here?

Not missing anything. That was my bad. My opinion on that text changed from earlier, simple as that.

[molestargazer]

@EVERYONE

- I'll be damned if I made that huge post for nothing. Could you please post your opinion on DedicatedScribe overall, and any responses to the case I made on him here?

[molestargazer]

- Immensely dislike his horrordude vote. Provides no reasons of his own other than 'agreeing with the smiley theory'. Terrible and opportunistic.

I'm fairly sure I provided reasons before this, or at least a little bit of analysis. I'll go back and check.

No, I was completely wrong about this, turns out I didn't make a post.
I'm assuming that the vote was as a reaction to horror's recent play. *Shrug*

[molestargazer]

@Kison - Here now, had a busy few days. I will respond to your points against me as soon as I get some time.

[molestargazer]

12. What made him start believing the smile theory?

If I remember correctly, there were still more posts attempting to defend himself which had a smiley tagged onto the own, which made me come round to the idea that they were being used to try and lessen the case on him.
The turn-around from earlier was purely due to the fact there was more of them since the original post in a similar context.
I don't have time to go and dig up the posts. As always, if you want them, I can go find them.

To your accusation of a 'bandwagon' vote on Horror: There's absolutely nothing I can say that can prove the fact that it wasn't. I could quite happily go and find the posts I used to justify my vote at the time - but scum could also do that, and it wouldn't convince you otherwise.
All I can say is that at the time, I had my reasons, and yes, the smiley theory factored into that.

To your accusation of a turn-around about jbernier's post: I can't remember everything that I've ever posted in the game. I can't remember every opinion I had about a post when making a new one, and cross-reference them to make sure there's no clashes.
Each post was made with the opinion I had at the time of writing. That's it. Nothing sinister.

[molestargazer]

Again, how does his increased exhibition of the same behavior justify the change of stance?

If I did another vote without displaying reasoning late in a day, wouldn't that increase YOUR suspicion of me? Might it not change someone else's mind about me being town?

That he now claims he had other reasons makes no difference.

I never claimed it did.

[molestargazer]

I know. They also concern me. My point is, the increase volume of the posts with such smileys led me to believe in the point that they were being used to deflect attention.
Just as if I did another vote as described above, it would lead you, and others, to believe / believe more that I was using them for a scummy agenda.

[molestargazer]

All in all Mole's breakdowns seem fairly accurate as it pertains to analyzing the night kills and lynches and their respective voters. He and I align a little on thoughts toward who he and I think are scummy. I find it weird though that he votes for Horror day one based on the "Smiley Theory" then when Kison brings it up he says he had a reason. Only to find he doesn't. I can't condone voting without reasoning even on day 1. Over all I find him mild-moderately scummy.

Woah. Woah. Steady on here.

1. The vote was not PURELY based on the smiley theory,

as I said before

.
2. I did have my reasons,

as I have said before

. I didn't post them at the time, which means that posting them now would be completely irrelevant as scum could quite happily make them up.

[molestargazer]

Unfortunately, coursework - the bane of my life - needs to be done whilst I have some free time today. I need to work on my DS case after his responses to my mega-post, amongst other things.
When's the deadline for today?

[molestargazer]

Here's the promised continuation of my DS case.

I tried to stay unbiased, at that point. Later I realized you can't attack someone by being unbiased. Him being noob doesn't make him completely ignored, but I found it hard to lynch a noob for the attack on him at that point.

I don't understand - how did you try to stay unbiased? You state yourself you made a post stating you thought he was town, and then defended him about the entrance - but then you decided he couldn't completely ignored and FoSed?!
Still seems like serious fence-sitting.

I really tried to be VERY clear about my changing my mind about voting horrordude that day. Yes, was trying to convince myself. I had seen Ythan at his worst at this point, and felt he would repeat this tomorrow. This was not my envisionment of a good D2. I found horrordude's lynch inevitable. I was pretty careful not to say I thought horrordude was scum, despite the consequences.

So you didn't actually think he was scum? You tried to convince yourself onto the vote to get him lynched? Are you seriously admitting this?

Fence-sit is not taking sides, right? That's bad (scum bad)?

Not taking a side, fence-sitting is VERY scummy.
It allows you to try and remove any blame from yourself if you vote and then lynch someone. Taking a side allows us to read you when people you push on flip, and it also is pro-town in that you can push to lynch scum.

Ythan has my attention because of how he pushes lynches too forcefully.

Do you think this is a scumtell? If so, why?

Again, I will start scum-hunting independently ASAP.

It's D3, and you've done no independent scumhunting?

I would also like to direct you to several of my points you

didn't

answer. Could you please comment on your:
- Taking the easy way out to secure a lynch Re.WRP_Beater?
- Contridictory attitude regarding the same player?

Anyone who doesnt think horror is scum, vote for him anyway. As I said,

he is a safe lynch, being VT

, nooby, and [sorry to say] distracting. It is also D1.

This is a major point of my thinking you're scum.
You are STATING that horror is town, as if you know, but are perfectly willing to go through with it anyway.

@EVERYONE

- Do you think that this is a scumtell? Why?

The vast majority of my points still stand, all of which can be found in (and are summarised at the bottom of) my ISO 32.

[molestargazer]

I'm not going to give you post numbers. Read the damn thread if you're going to play the game.

The Burden of proof is on you to prove he's scum.
I've not been following the case, but give us some post numbers and it'll make it easier for all involved.
He can reply to them, we can see if your case is a valid one.

[molestargazer]

This is what burden of proof is, mole.

You know what I meant, whether my choice of words is in the wiki under a different definition or not.

[molestargazer]

If you use the words contrary to what they actually mean

On the contrary.
In a mafia circumstance, in the mafia wiki, yes, they mean that.
My definition was the natural one (to me, at least), often used in legal scenarios - you have to prove he's scum. He's innocent 'til then.

contrary to how they might pertain to the situation at hand

What do you mean? They have everything to do with the situation..?

[molestargazer]

I don't need to explain myself. If you actually read my post, you will see the connection.

The Burden of proof is on you

to prove he's scum.
I've not been following the case, but

give us some post numbers

and it'll make it easier for all involved.

By giving us post numbers which Lowell has not answered, you will prove your case against him that he's been avoiding answering things.

[molestargazer]

@mole, I know you asked about Dedicated Scribe earlier. The main point I really buy into that is up against him is his weird fence sitting towards horrorude during day one. Other points I'd brought up I think he's addressed fairly well. Who would be your picks if you had to forfeit a Dedicated Scribe lynch?

Yesterday I had a case going against Jbernier, so my first port of call would be to revisit that and check up on his recent behaviour.
After that, I'm not really sure. I would probably take a look at Rik, I've noticed a bit of pressure on him.

Having a bit of read.

@Unsight - Can you please clarify your current feelings about Ythan? A few pages you seemed hell-bent on his death, but now things seem to be all happy happy again.

[molestargazer]

To everyone not voting Rike: If we no lynch then every one of you will die before anyone on the wagon.

This alone put me off reading back for a Rike case. Just sayin'.

I will take a look later tonight, if I think it's hammer-worthy, then I'll do so.

[molestargazer]

I rarely think that after D1 it's a wise course of action to NL.
If I don't think there's a good enough case, if I don't think he's scum, I won't vote. I can't say any more than that.

[molestargazer]

Quite frankly, the win condition 'evidence' is moot - it's been posted before.

(Still looking back.)

[molestargazer]

Unfortunately, I have to agree. It could be blagged, but it's too close.

Anyone for DS lynch, then? Or are you going to make me read again, really quickly?

[molestargazer]

I know, right? The hour made all the difference.

Do you still think Rik's scum, Ythan?

[molestargazer]

Personally, I'd rather go for a Diacria lynch, DS still being my main suspect from yesterday.

I never really found the Rik case yesterday, but (eww promised content) tonight I should get time to read back over it a little and find out the case - if anyone wishes to direct me, that'd be swell, but I'm not relying on "being babied".

[molestargazer]

I am suspicious of Rikenslope because of his avoidance of an obv-scum vanilla townie wagon on day 1. To me, the only reason one would avoid that wagon is if they knew the person was vanilla and didn't want to be on a townie lynch.

Are you serious?!
"He didn't lynch town, therefore he's scum"?

Rikenslope, glad you joined us again! I'll assume it isn't coincidence that you magically appear again as soon as a bandwagon forms on you...

Personally, I think that can just as easily be a procrastination-tell or laziness-tell more than it is a scumtell.

Pure gut, but I'm very confident in it.

Sounds a little contradictory to me. Really, are you that confident in a read you have no evidence to support?

Guess I'd better wade in and get a vote down.

Vote: Diacria

DS was very scummy. I've not seen anything to change my opinion yet. I prefer this case to Rik's, which I (admittedly) still know little about.

[molestargazer]

This thread needs more Diacria votes.

[molestargazer]

This thread needs more Diacria votes.

Prod avoidance is cute... and scummy.

What I said is true though.

I have no more to add at this point. Ask me some questions and I'll happily answer them.
There just isn't much worth commenting on right now, there's nothing jumping out at me.

[molestargazer]

My Diacra vote mainly is because of the scumminess of DS before he was replaced, which I have made a fairly extensive case on - see my ISO 32 and 42.

I also dislike his reliance on gut - but that's more a playstyle thing, isn't necessarily a scumtell.

Pmann is town because of the anti-flavor analysis, blatant showing of the self-preservation instinct, public willingness to jump on any wagon yesterday, and general feel from his tone.

Why is anti-flavour analysis a town-tell? Same question for showing self-preservation. Hell, the same for wagon-jump-willingness.

[molestargazer]

i found mole's case on ds LACKING.

In what?

[molestargazer]

Wow, Kison, you're really pushing my case, aren't you?

I have to admit to making a gigantic balls-up with pushing for Diacria / DS so hard. Can't say anything other than that I really believed in it, and I was wrong. That's it.

[molestargazer]

On a side note, how many scum do we think are left? Could this by lylo/mylo/some other form of something-lo?

[molestargazer]

Ythan

- I've double checked my role PM, and I have no idea what the hell you're on about.

Whoever-Asked-for-the-two-suspects

- I don't have any right now.

[molestargazer]

Posting, yes Unsight, to avoid a prod.

Really can't drum up the time nor the enthusiasm to look for things right now, for which I apologise. Things seem to have ground to a halt waiting for Konowa.
Since Konowa might not be posting, and you've already outed yourself as being something other than your everyday VT, do you care to explain what this 'odd' thing is all about, Ythan?

If it comes down to it, I wouldn't against a mass claim, but I'd rather it didn't come to that.

The case on Rik, so strong yesterday, also appears to have stopped. In an attempt to get it moving again (and also to help my lazy ass out), could someone link me to / summarise the case on Rik so I can decide if it's worth my vote?

[molestargazer]

That works for me.

[molestargazer]

I specifically said that he needs to confirm his half. To insure that he's not scum fakeclaiming. So what are you trying to do here.

How could he be scum fakeclaiming when he's the only person left? Everyone else has said they've not got a clue what you're on about.
If he does, that means the one you're looking for has already lied - and they could counter-claim if it came to that.

Why?

I dislike Mass claims on principle.

Do the work for you?

Please.

[molestargazer]

Alright, that's fine by me.

[molestargazer]

I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm cool with that.

If we hold out for someone who'll read all 125, we're going to be waiting a long time.

[molestargazer]

I'm of the opinion that they don't really achieve much. I mean, scum will more than likely claim vanilla and we're essentially back where we were before, with the possibility of some town PRs being outed to die overnight.

[molestargazer]

YTHAN

- Assuming you are town, could it be possible that your opposite is not of your alignment and is therefore scared of outing themselves? Are you sure they are pro-town?

[molestargazer]

Wait, wait, hang on a minute.
If I remember correctly, didn't the mod confirm that the scum were issued with copies of the townie PM?

[molestargazer]

Well, I'm assuming the scum have had the copies from the start.

However, it's an irrelevant point anyway, because in my infinite stupidity I forgot farside was dead when I made that last point.

... I should probably shut up now.

[molestargazer]

Perhaps because I didn't know it was untrue? All I could remember was that we were told scum had copies, and I assumed they were given from the start, sent out in Role PMs - in my lack of knowledge, do you not think that's a reasonable assumption to make?

It's a completely moot point anyway, as I said above.

[molestargazer]

But, well, it is. So

sue

lynch me.
I made that point based on thinking that the scum having the role PM was relevant to the discussion about farside - which it wasn't, because farside's dead.

It's not as if I refused to reply based on the fact it's a moot point, I gave an explanation.

[molestargazer]

I have been on site 'overnight'. Apologies for not being able to get to the game before the lynch.

Before anyone bothers looking for them, I didn't really HAVE any thoughts on Rik. My entire time was spent asking for a link to a case and having a look through, which never actually happened - despite both me AND the replacement asking for one.
That's why I didn't join the wagon - I had no reason to at the time.

@Riddick - You've mentioned we have a doc. Is there any evidence you have to back this up?
I admit, with Ythan's lack of death throughout the whole game despite being a very pro-town player, Doc is a very distinct possibility.

I support a massclaim, but we have to go into it in the knowledge that our PRs are probably going to catch a bullet or two tonight.

[molestargazer]

Mole/Konowa/Kison <--- scum is there imo.

Why not nacho?

[molestargazer]

Ah.
Do you think we have another, then?

[molestargazer]

I would like molestargazer to go next.

No surprises there.
I'm a townsperson (VT).

I would like Riddick to go next.

[molestargazer]

nacho/mole/kison contain the scums.

In which case, it's Nacho.
I'm VT. I think Kison is pretty townish, just making a mistake in his case on me.

[molestargazer]

If you want to do that, then lynch mole! He softly defended Rik while also pushing hard for Diacria. He also asked for the Rik case at least twice with promises to look at it (take a guess if this promise was ever fulfilled...).

That's right, it never was, no-one gave me any clue of where it was so I could go and look at it.

I pushed hard for DS / Diacria because I believed he was scum, I had a strong case on DS.

[molestargazer]

I'm also loving the WIFOM from this, Nacho.

[molestargazer]

Like you couldn't go back and look at it yourself... I thought you DIDN'T need to be babied...?

As for your point on WIFOM... What? Oh, so because you suspect me I can't view you as scum? I mean, I could see if you actually brought up a case on me and I was responding with "ohey, mole's scum", but you have to warp reality quite a bit to get to that point.

1. Nah, I'd much rather I was. Call it laziness if you like.
I looked back and couldn't see anything - hence why I asked.

2. Quite a coincidence you're gunning for me right after I labelled you as the last scum though.

[molestargazer]

But it is what I said here and here. I also admitted to not looking at the case here, and mentioning AGAIN how I hadn't seen one.
I guess the promised content didn't happen, I was lazy, that's nothing new. Want me to fetch a rope? I don't know how to tie a noose though, so you'll have to help me on that.

[molestargazer]

mole - Aside from process of elimination, do you have any other reason for thinking nacho is scum?

Nope.

[molestargazer]

I've failed to comment on it because it's a load of rubbish. I only said I hadn't seen the case, which I hadn't.

Would it have been really that hard to go through the votecounts, find where Riken had a lot of votes on him, and click the little post button? Oh wait, you didn't think of that. You also didn't think of ISOing Riken and checking around where he made his claim... You also didn't think of ISOing Riken and doing the work yourself...?

I did think of at least the last idea. But I was too lazy to put the work in. I admit that.

[molestargazer]

And I see you are still to lazy to make up a case on someone else/defend yourself.

I am defending myself, I'm saying the truth. What else is it, a ferrari?

Stuff like this sounds to soft-defending to me, why doesn't it sound like soft-defending to you...?

I disliked Ythan's arrogance in that post.

[molestargazer]

But yes, I am still lazy. It's exam season, and after I've been at work today and doing college work all week, I am in no mood to go searching through a shitton of posts.

I didn't really foresee the game lasting this long / me surviving this long.

I'm not going to promise meaningful content like I provided earlier in the game, since I may end up not delivering and putting myself even lower in everyone's... list. (What's the word?)
I will admit this case is giving me a kick up the arse to be more motivated. We'll see.

[molestargazer]

It's more boring waiting for the mole than I thought it would be.

I never PROMISED content. Read my post.
Waiting for me != helping things.

[molestargazer]

MOD:

When's deadline?

[molestargazer]

MY FEELINGS BEFORE I'VE DONE ANY READING:

2. MoleStargazer

- No explanation needed here.

7. Kison

- Tunnelled on me, pretty hard. But I can't call him out on that, since that's what I did with Diacria. And was wrong. I think he's probably town, but misguided.

10. Nachomama8

- Evidently, I quite strongly believe Nacho's scum due to his WIFOM attack on me when I called him out by process of elimination. Which, by the way, I still believe in.

16. Riddick

- With Riddick, I haven't seen anything that jumps out at me either way. I wouldn't go so far as to call him 100% pro-town, but I definitely wouldn't go for a lynch.

19. Ythan

- Town. My only curiosity with Ythan is why he's still alive after so many (apparently) doc-less consecutive nights when he DOES appear so pro-town. I wouldn't go for a lynch, though. That would be ridiculous.

20. Nhammen

- Obviously, I'm inclined to say town because he agrees with me about Nacho (or at least, believes me more than any other living player). Apart from that though, I haven't seen very much - which lands him in the same camp as Riddick.

I have a spare half an hour round about now (literally, all I have). I will have a quick look at Nacho's ISO and see if there's anything to find.

I have nothing more to say in my defence other than I've always tried to tell the truth (with the exception of promised re-reads, as he was quick tp point out). I'm also lazy.

[molestargazer]

I find it quite ironic that Nacho is calling me out for not reading Rikenslope when
a) He asks for things to be done for him too, and also admits to procrastination. See his ISO 6 and ISO 14. This is in the same context as mine of wanting to know roughly where something is so he can find it, and not wanting to read LOTS of pages.
b) He never gave any of his own reasons for voting Rikenslope, or indeed Diacria when he voted for him. ISO 22 ("I agree with Lowell"), ISO 29 ("This is going nowhere"), ISO 32, ISO 34. This reeks of wagon-hopping to see which one will stick. He didn't choose a suspect and stick to them (admittedly, he does push for Rikenslope lynch whilst on the Diacria wagon, but still, he's ON the Diacria wagon).

After ISO 35, all he does is attack me. I suggest everyone takes a look at our ISOs and see who you prefer overall.

I guess everyone else is voting, so I'd better get mine down.

Vote: Nachomamma8

I'd also like to collect something I said in my pre-read reads. Nhammen should be green. As riddick pointed out here, he's a mason by POE. So, definitely no lynching there.

[molestargazer]

Oh, well done.
I hope to god there's only one scum left.

[molestargazer]

Thanks for sticking it out to everyone who did, including the mod, and thanks for replacing in to the rest of you.

Also, damn. I had Kison pegged as town the whole time...
Riddick did pretty damn well also, he would've been near last on my lynch-list.

Good game all.

[molestargazer]

I'd also like to apologise for my lack of activity.
The length of the game + RL pressure got to me a little. Hope I did OK.