Mini 219: Tom Cruise Mafia -- It's a Wrap!

[Seol]

And - we're off!

Vote Seol

because I can.

Were you expecting to have some sort of voting restriction?

Think I'll

vote: halfpint

.

That's enough for now, I'll get back to polishing my teeth. Mmm, white.

[Seol]

A motivator as I have used it, or will be in the future, is a person who has the following effects on targets:

Cop - gets two investigations that night.
Blocker - gets two blocks that night.
Doc - blocks all kills on target.
Killer - foils doc/block attempts on him/target and his kill goes through.
Townie - vote counts double next day.

However, how MeMe would go about it, I do not know. Her silence might be affirmative.

I wouldn't expect Meme to comment on it either way, myself.

But there's more! Check this out. It's a role called "motivator" in a game Meme played waaay back (the only other citing of the word "motivator" within a game on these forums), although your "motivator" role fits TJ Mackey better than that one.

So there's at least two viable possibilities out there.

[Seol]

Oh, and no. It was not a bandwagon vote. I did not realize you had 2 votes prior to that. Not much to go on, so i figured I'd random vote. So, no, it was not a bandwagon vote purposely.

Uh, we're halfway onto the second page, and you said you'd "caught up", but you didn't notice. Pay attention.

unvote: Dragon Phoenix

Now it's not really a bandwagon, is it?

And what's wrong with a bandwagon?

[Seol]

And what's wrong with a bandwagon?

Nothing wrong with bandwagons. But DP just voted Johnny for being on his bandwagon, wouldn't want the same thing to happen to me

DP voted Johnny for puting the third vote on his bandwagon (a commonly cited scum tell) without any sort of reason. Your vote was a random first vote - there's a slight gulf in scumminess there. So if there's nothing wrong with bandwagons, why unvote? Possibly because you don't want it to be DP who's being bandwagonned? Or just an extreme case of the jitters?

[Seol]

To answer your question - Minis normally run at about 3 mafia members. Sometimes there is a Serial Killer in addition to the 3-person mafia. And, sometimes it goes 2 opposing mafia groups with 2 members each.

Two killings night 1 very much suggests that we've got several scum groups. I don't really think you were trying to hide this fact, but I'll throw in a

vote: inHimshallibe

. Didn't like your post #25:

Well, my vote's as good as any other, so I'll stick to it.

What's wrong with post #25?

I don't like your "You said X, I don't think X is scummy but I'll vote for you, oh, and by the way, here's a post" post.

unvote, vote: Astronaut

[Seol]

DP did not get my vote because he was suspicious, if you read my post maybe you'd understand. Before you ask me to talk, I prompt you to read.

Uh, OK...

Yeah, I passed by yesterday, but wasn't really sure if it was fine to just say Hi or whatever. But, yeah I'm here, reading and watching.

Unvote Seol
Vote WindSlicer

Read, watch, post and vote, please, or we'll nail you as lurker scum.

Ok There's not much to go on as it is just the first day and no one's realy done anything interesting, so since you gave me the idea...

Vote Dragon Phoenix

I'm not entirely sure - is that intended as a baseless random vote, an OMGUS vote, or a gesture to DP? In any case, thanks for clearing up that you're not voting DP because you're suspicious of him.

Do you think it's

productive

to be voting someone who isn't suspicious, when there are people you think are suspicious?

[Seol]

As far as I can see it we've had four main targets thusfar: Astro, inHim, Johnny and Windslicer.

Astro looked, to me, like he was making a case out of very little against inHim earlier today, and has since kinda disappeared - but everyone seems to have sunk into a bit of a lull, so I'm not going to get all pot-kettle, especially as there isn't that much to the case against him. Worth revisiting later, perhaps... but right now, there are bigger fish to fry.

I don't really see the case against inHim, to be honest. He's pretty much making sense to me at the moment, and the attacks look like making mountains out of molehills.

Johnny is coming across like a nervous, reactionary newbie (a bad sign in itself), and there definitely appears to be a Talitha/Johnny relationship worth watching. There are at least three separate occasions where Talitha appears to be coaching Johnny, and Johnny picks up on it and follows her. There's also the hesitancy about being on the inHim bandwagon - because "he seems to be on the verge of being lynched"...

Windslicer's also coming across newbish, but being more of an awkward customer. He's frustrating to deal with, definitely... but which is scummier, the brash I'll-talk-when-I'm-ready of Windslicer or the obliging do-whatever-you-say of Johnny?

I'd say that Johnny takes it, and the aversion to being on a lynching bandwagon and Tally's apparent coaching tells are just icing on the cake.

unvote, vote: Johnny, Combo Player

.

IGMEOY: Windslicer

.

[Seol]

I didn't see Seol's post #93 before I made #94, but that one really deserves some attention.

First, he throws accusations all over the place, next he defends inHim and then the Talitha/Johnny plot. Finally he votes one of the newbies and IGMEOY's the other. This behaviour is the opposite of what I've seen from Seol in my previous games with him.
If there's a post in this thread that has triggered my sensors, it's this one.

unvote: in Him, vote: Seol

Um, that's a technique I've used before when I don't know where to look next, which I call "taking a step back and having a good look at everybody worth looking at". What exactly seemed at odds with my usual behaviour?

[Seol]

Do I really have to roleclaim?

It would hurt the town quit a bit

. But if a majority of the town decides that I should claim, I will.

Would it hurt the town more than lynching you without hearing a claim?

[Seol]

unvote: Johnny

.

I like Astro better than inhim or Tally.

vote: Astronaut

.

[Seol]

After your latest post,

unvote: halfpint

I was suspicious that you didn't place a vote, but I think your analysis of Astro is objective, and that you did for the better of the town. Thus, that's why I have now removed my vote.

I just don't know where to put it now... Johnny, any comments?

The thing about halfpint's post is... it's

too

objective. There's little by the way of opinions there, and it doesn't really tell us anything that we couldn't get by reading the thread ourselves. I'd almost say it's very well-disguised fluff.

As for today... I'm not really getting much by the way of scum vibes from anyone. Astro's still my favourite - but I don't like that WindSlicer and Johnny are keeping quiet, although I'm comfortable eliminating Johnny as a suspect for today. For that matter, we're not hearing much from Dragon Phoenix either - why do we punish the "newbies" for lurking but not DP?

[Seol]

unvote: Astro, vote: Johnny Combo Player

.

[Seol]

I can't think of a reason Coolbot would come out with this if he were scum, but by the same token, I can't think of a reason halfpint would have put a vote on inHim if Johnny was counterclaiming her role.

I can. With our doc dead and two nightkills night 1, Johnny was almost a lock for being nightkilled. Given that, why would halfpint put herself in the firing line? Better to wait until she has more results, and let Johnny's corpse speak for itself.

[Seol]

Here's an idea - Let's not lynch either one of them, as I don't feel like voting out a potential cop. If JCP is telling the truth, he will most likely be a target tonight. If he's not, well, we can sort through this Day 2. I personally like the vote on WindSlicer. Notice not only Coolbot, but the vote jumpers, too, if Johnny is telling the truth.

Sway me from this position, and I'll put the Johnny's lynch status beyond reasonable doubt.

Why would Coolbot lie? If he's scum, he's sacrificing himself when he knows he can get rid of Johnny anyway. It makes no sense for Coolbot to counterclaim at this point unless he's telling the truth.

Why would Johnny lie? He was about to be lynched, and he needed a claim to keep himself alive. Notice how quickly the bandwagon dissipated when he claimed. It makes perfect sense for Johnny to have come up with that claim if he's scum.

One of them is lying. It only makes sense for one of the possible candidates to be lying - Johnny. So he's scum. So let's lynch him.

[Seol]

I paid careful attention to halfpint and DP's posts in my re read.
We speculated what halfpint's italicised vote meant. After that vote and a subsequent unvote, she maintained that the only person she had a read on was inHim, who was innocent.

And the role being "Day Cop" means we can be pretty sure that the unvote was due to an investigation.

Wait a sec. "We" speculated? Who's "we"? There wasn't any in-thread speculation, apart from by Coolbot - who

was

halfpint.

inHim:
We've already seen one pro town person lie but I don't see a reason why inHim would lie about being a mason. halfpint's faith in Him (;)) would seem to corroborate the fact.

Now maybe we should discuss the merits of letting inHim reveal his partner? A voting bloc would be quite useful at this time I think.

There is one possibility which we should bear in mind - it's possible that inhim was a GF. If he is, then mason's a very good claim for him - he could name one of his partners, get further corroboration, and probably exclude themselves from the lynch that day. If we started with three Mafia - which, with two cop roles, a doc, the world's stupidest vig (sorry Johnny, but it needs to be said) and a mason group too, is somewhat likely - we could well be on lynch-or-lose today. So we need to be very careful about making assumptions like this.

I must admit to not having seen many TC movies beyond Minority Report and the MI ones. I do have some knowledge of the premise of the few of the others though. McDeere was a lawyer? Who would be his partner? Alternatively, is there another lawyer role?

Is speculating on roles wise?

Astro:
He's been setting off buzers for a while now. I still don't like his unvoting of DP and the subsequent explanation. It can definitely be perceived as currying favour for later.
However, he attracted a number of votes at various times from various people. DP however seemed to have had no intention of voting for him, while he freely tagged on his votes elsewhere. DP's comments about Astro being weird but not necessarily scummy makes me think he might have been DP's night one target.
Given his behaviour though, I'd mark him as being a possible Godfather.

Talitha:
Nothing about her has struck me as scummy until her previous post. One could argue it was a tell. One could argue that there was truth in her statement and a natural reaction. Both could be right. I only wonder if DP didn't ping Tal on night one. A scummy Tal is a dangerous one. Her behaviour would indicate otherwise though. Another (lower possibility) candidate for GF?

Interesting that you say you suspect one of Astro or Tally were investigated, but then point out they could be a GF - but don't consider that possibility in respect of inhim, who you consider cleared by halfpint. A curious omission.

FOS: Phoebus

Seol is being funny. He started out quietly, became verbose in the middle and then petered out again. Allow me a little meta gaming where I can definitely say that Seol has not really lost any of loquaciousness as his performance in a certain other game indicates and thus, it just strikes a weird chord with me.

I just haven't had much to talk about so far, and I've been posting intermittently in most my games recently - I'm verbose when I have something to say, and quiet when I don't, and day 1 here was one of the driest I've seen. Not something I'm proud of - I'm going to cut back a bit on the volume going forward.

[Seol]

Seol:
The day cop is not a regularly used role. It might have certain limitations but the way I see mafia mechanics work, the GFs have no police record for the cops to check or no skeletons in their closets for snoops to find at night. During the day, if someone were to pick your pockets, you might not have been all that careful.

I admit to not having thought that inHim could be GF but somehow, the day cop does not lend itself to me as being fooled by the GF. Why do I think that? I don't know. I just do.
This is all ofcourse based on the assumption that there IS a GF. *shrug*

Of course. If there is a GF, and GF in this case means investigation immunity, that GF's immunity might not work against the investigations of a day cop, the mechanics of which we are unaware, and the target of which we cannot be certain. Maybe this isn't the most fruitful line of discussion?

As far as the "we" part goes - I look at/play my games thinking as if we're all sitting in a circle like in Real Time. I did not look up who commented on the italics, no. However, I remember that someone mentioned it and I agreed with that point. Actually, agreed more on how that was weird. Given halfpint/CoolBot's now-revealed role, it becomes interesting.

My impression is that Coolbot's comment suggests that the italicised vote was

not

a role mechanic or an indication of halfpint's investigation target, otherwise his comment served to undermine hints towards very important information that he was aware of. If that's true, halfpint could have investigated

anyone

.

Therefore, we, as a town.
If you want to harp on the semantics of that, please be my guest. If you're going to nitpick, you're going to look suspicious. The simplest sort of explanation? I imagined a link with the Bot and agreed. Therefore, we agreed. How do you like that?

It wasn't "harping on the semantics". It might have been a slip of the tongue referring to night-time discussions and analysis you may have performed as part of a group. That fits your post better than your explanation - but your explanation is both simpler and credible. It's not huge, and it's not concrete, but it's noteworthy, as is the aggressive and evasive tone of your response.

And no, let's not speculate in a mafia game please.

I'm presuming that's sarcasm. The reason I think it's a bad idea to speculate on viable name-claims for the Masons is because we might be handing a believable fake claim to scum. That would be a bad idea.

Oh and you can't stop talking. How do we tell when you're scum or not?

Isn't that what the game's all about?

inHim:
Wanna call it fishing? OK.
*shrug* But the very point of putting forward baldly a statement like "the merits of revealing inHim's partner" means that you're not completely and totally cleared in my book.

Even when a mason

is

totally cleared, it's still worth thinking twice about revealing the partner. Plus, the fishing is, I suspect, more in reference to the rolename fishing than the partner identity fishing.

No. More so than most. I think I can have a little faith in MeMe not including the GF mason. I just prefer to have all bases and possibilities covered.

And that was exactly my point. inhim isn't totally cleared. But I'm less concerned with him being a GF mason than him not being a mason at all, and even that I think is unlikely. It just needs to be borne in mind.

Since Seol was so much into the semantics of other things, it's interesting to me that he has overlooked the possible implications of having a mason reveal themselves.

The implications of having a genuine mason reveal themselves are very good. The implications of having a scum corroborate another scum's fake Mason claim and to take that on trust could be catastrophic. So it's a good idea to tread carefully and consider the worst-case scenario.

Oh and Seol - stupid vig or not. He's dead. There've been two kills both nights.

So there's two killing groups. That's fairly standard. What's your point?

Lynch or lose? Don't think so yet.

That doesn't mean there aren't three Mafia, which seems fairly standard for a 12-man mini. If we lynch wrong, there's six alive going into night with three Mafia and an SK. Under those circumstances, the town needs a doc (and we've got a dead doc), a vigilante (and we've got a dead vig) or a roleblocker to win. Even then, the odds are horrible.

If there's only two people in the Mafia, the situation's a whole lot better.

Oh and before you say - lynch or lose for the town,

Interesting that you draw a distinction between "lynch or lose" and "lynch or lose for the town". Another semantic argument? Or another inadvertent Mafia tell?

let me cover that as well since no evil people have died, they can still take potshots at each other. I'm not ready to despair yet.

And, um, if we lynch Mafia we're lynching correctly. It's when we don't lynch Mafia that we have a problem. That's what lynch or lose

means

, so how on earth does that "cover that"?

vote: Phoebus.

[Seol]

Seol is less verbose and very possibly scum for being positively "unbrilliant" as Astro hinted at.

Yeah, I remember that from yesterday. I also seem to remember someone saying:

Oh my Astro.
You're going to spend all your time playing Mafia with Seol around, hanging on to his tailcoats? I mean - I know what you mean but people have off days.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you might not necessarily be right.
It probably reflects on Seol if you're right about this...

Yesterday, the argument got that tone of response. Today, when you're that much closer to winning, the OMG he's not being a genius logic seems much more compelling? How convenient.

See, my surmise is that we have 3 + 1 as is regular purely with a view for balance. We may or may not be in a lynch or lose but my hunch says Seol is scum. I voted because I'm pretty sure he is. The lack of afore mentioned piling on is a fair indicator that he is.

And yet the vote count has the same number of votes on each of us. There's been a lack of piling on for

both

of us. Doesn't that indicator point at you just as much as me?

Again, lack of reactions from others would indicate this is not townie v. townie. You can go check in other games if you want to analyse/meta game my play style if you like. Seol's is definitely markedly different.

Seol played markedly different as far as I see because he is mafia.

Quoted out of order. Markedly different from what, exactly? I've been mafia (and even SK) in a few games recently, and have been just as verbose in those. Go check me out, too. I don't just clam up when I'm mafia. I talk when I have something to say, and the rest of the time I wait until I have something to say. The reason I've been playing quietly is because, for once, I didn't really have much to say.

That would be foolish, as almost half the town has got to be BG's at this point, and especally because I do think Seol looks a little suspicious for supporting the wrong side of the lynch yesterday.

Now you're really stretching. Johnny had

lied about his role

. I explained why, given the circumstances, we could be pretty much certain that it was Johnny who was lying, not Coolbot. Under those circumstances, you lynch the liar. And you know what, my reasoning held up - Coolbot was the one telling the truth about his role.

Given what we knew at the time

, he was absolutely the right person to lynch.

Again with the finding any convenient reason for an attack on me.

In lynch or lose, I don't FOS. I don't vote and I indicate whom I might vote for.
I did this in my first post for the day.

But you

did

vote. Straight off the bat, you voted for someone based on lurking in what might be lynch-or-lose. Surely that's a really dangerous move for a townie? And you must know that, mustn't you?

So why did you do it?

[Seol]

Talk about misrepresentation!
I have

never

said that. It was Yosarian2.

That's what I get for composing my response in the quote window. I missed some tags, and when I was responding I thought it was you saying that.

FOS: Yosarian2

, see my previous post for reasoning.

Are you trying to sell something off something to the town by thrusting a misleading quote in the middle of others and falsely attributing it to me by saying "Phoebus wrote"?

Thing about that is, that would be an utterly stupid thing to do, because you're bound to notice it, especially when I draw so much attention to the argument. It makes no sense as a deliberate action no matter what my role.

[Seol]

On the other hand, Seol, you are now the only one who is voting. Until you unvote,

fos:Seol

I'll "unbold" my vote -

unvote: Phoebus

- but as far as I'm concerned it's still on him.

I find it interesting that WindSlicer chose to be replaced in this particular game, when he was under pressure for lurking and such and he is still contributing in this one.

Now that is interesting... Time to go back for a re-read, methinks. Maybe that vote isn't on you, after all.

Will check back in later tonight.

[Seol]

Well, it's nice to have Fuldu - who I had no fix on, due to his sparse posting - to be effectively confirmed via his mason claim (inhim, could you just confirm that? Just procedure ). Phoebus is still top of my list, for the reasons I've already mentioned, and as such still holds my "unbolded" vote. Whilst I'm getting good vibes from Yosarian, WindSlicer's behaviour yesterday is a marked contrast to the game Phoebus linked to, and not in a good way, so he's a close second on my list.

That leaves Tally and Astro for third place, and I'm none to keen on how they've both effectively lurked through the day. There's a bit of me that thinks

maybe

Phoebus is town and the scum have been happy to sit back and let the sparks fly between us, but for that to be the case - once we've eliminated our masons, which I'm inclined to do - the only way Phoebus could be town is if we have only three scum in a 2-man Mafia, 1 SK setup, which seems unlikely to me.

[Seol]

But I'd return Seol's compliment and prefer him over Astro.
Again with the discussing likelihood of scum numbers.
What

do

you know?

I know we've got at least two cops (one of which we admittedly don't know the mechanics of), a vig, a doc, and two masons. With a setup like that, two Mafia and an SK doesn't seem

enough

, and Meme's an experienced mod and a very experienced player. Seeing as the information is pertinent to how we proceed, I think it's only pragmatic to consider it. Why are you so averse to doing so?

Also, it's interesting that on the reread you didn't respond to my last post in our original head-to-head - the one which prompted me to vote you - you got distracted by Yosarian and just left those points hanging. Did you just have nothing to say in response?

[Seol]

I'll be gone until Monday, and since more and more are commenting on my scumminess (and I'm afraid I might be getting it when Tally says she's ready to vote), I'll make a half-claim.

I'm immune to one lynching.

That's an awfully convenient ability to claim at this point in the game. It prompts one simple question:

You have to think - would no lynch hurt us? If it would then we don't lynch Astro yet. If not, that's fine by me. I'm pretty sure no lynch is extremely detrimental at the moment.

Therefore,

just by making that claim

, Astro is unlynchable today, and probably for the rest of the game.

Since this is something I don't think I've seen as scum ability, wasting your lynch on me would confirm my innocense.

What what what? I haven't seen that ability before, so I don't know about prior game metagaming, but that strikes me as a scum ability, not a pro-town one. It'd be helpful to have the rolename, that might help it make more sense - but if you're town, then the town is ridiculously buffed (which I expect means the scum are also pretty buffed). Not only would "wasting the lynch" to confirm your ability (already you're talking dismissively about the possibility, as if you're fully aware you're doing nothing more than trying to divert attention away) not prove jack shit about your alignment, I'd say it actually leans towards suggesting you're scum.

In fact, it looks to me like you're trying to give the impression that you're the SK. However, I think you're lying, and you don't have that ability at all. It's just

too

convenient.

I know we've got at least two cops (one of which we admittedly don't know the mechanics of), a vig, a doc, and two masons. With a setup like that, two Mafia and an SK doesn't

seem

enough, and Meme's an experienced mod and a very experienced player.

(I changed the italicised part)

MeMe's experience as a player and mod would definitely enable her, if she chose to do so, to balance a game which would appear otherwise. Given Astro's claim, and given that I think he's scummy, a free lynch could be such a balancing measure.

All I was saying there was my basis for thinking it was likely to be a 3-1 split. Seems to me you agree that a 3-1 split is the likely setup too, but it's possible Meme's buffed the scum other ways. Sure, that's possible (and if Astro is Mafia with that ability, then that'd probably be a sufficient buff - but obviously I hadn't anticipated that), but then, I never said it wasn't.

There has also been discussion after Astro's claim about his ability not appearing to be anything other than pro town. In my book, MeMe's experience would lead her to being able to foresee such reactions and therefore, deliberately include this.

Well, Astro said it looked pro-town, but nobody else referenced that until you did here - trying to plant that as accepted wisdom? And what exactly is that paragraph trying to say? Astro's ability looks pro-town, but knowing Meme, that means it might well not be? How WIFOMy. Personally, I just don't think it looks pro-town.

I know I try and think of what might be so ridiculous that one could get away with it when I try to introduce weird roles/mechanics in my games.

Of course, expect the unexpected. That doesn't mean dismiss the expected, though - and yet, that's what it looks like you're trying to do.

Would you call me experienced? However, it's all meta gaming.

That doesn't mean it's not a valuable thought process, and it can't be dismissed out of hand.

As for that post, I probably got distracted. I will dig it up and see if I need to address anything there.

Still waiting - or do you accept all my points there?

Or were you just hoping I'd forget about it again?

And I'm not averse to discussing it. There's just this little hint of knowledge about your posts that rubs me wrong.

And this is what I'm finding most scummy about you - you're arguing

against

there being a 3-1 split and attacking people for talking about it. I never said, and still don't, that we definitely have a 3-1 split - just that it was a likelihood based on the information available and we should bear it in mind. Let's rewind to earlier today -

If we started with three Mafia - which, with two cop roles, a doc, the world's stupidest vig (sorry Johnny, but it needs to be said) and a mason group too, is somewhat likely - we could well be on lynch-or-lose today. So we need to be very careful about making assumptions like this.

Oh and Seol - stupid vig or not. He's dead. There've been two kills both nights.
Lynch or lose? Don't think so yet.

Straight in with the dismissive tone, based on irrelevant reasoning (you're experienced enough to realise that having an SK in the mix makes no difference), then -

unvote: WindSlicer ; vote: Seol

What do you know/are trying to cover up?
Or am I being picky about the semantics now?

In with an attack - but for what? For considering that it's quite likely the scum setup is the same it usually is? Or for bringing that to the town's attention?

If it's lynch or lose, then we need to lynch Mafia today. You're trying to distract us from that possibility, even going into a lot of depth about the possible ways it could be some other setup that's balanced, but why would it be important to consider those possibilities? They're all better for the town, they don't need to be played around in the same way. It must be

because you're Mafia

, and you don't want anyone talking about it - you see that talk as a threat.

Oh and before you say - lynch or lose for the town, let me cover that as well since no evil people have died, they can still take potshots at each other. I'm not ready to despair yet.

There are two separate tells in this paragraph! Firstly the distinction between "lynch or lose" and "lynch or lose for the town", and secondly the talk about scum planning ahead with inside lynches.

Astro's current departure will stall things - but I'm happy voting either Yos or Seol. His half-claim is annoying. A name to go along with it would have been useful. Nowhere does he categorily state that he is not evil. People might ask, why I require this, but even in text medium, people don't like lying unless they're forced to. When you're a townie, you have no problem sayng you're town. Astro never said that with his claim, or even earlier - though I'm working off memory with this.

Now, isn't that interesting, because Tally's next post after this starts like so:

I'm not scum.

I'd say the complete opposite - going out of your way to say you're pro-town smacks of trying too hard, and it certainly rang alarm bells with me when Tally threw that in her post. It just looks artificial.

And in preview, I see the second time that Yos categorily presents both sides of the argument, trying to be helpful while he adds no content whatsoever. The first would be post 259.

So whilst before you were attacking him for attacking yourself and not me, looking at just the side of the argument he thought was most important, now you're attacking him for looking at both sides? You're a difficult man to please, Phoebus.

[Seol]

So, masons? We doing this mass claim thing? I think you two should be the ones to decide who claims first.

Fuldu suggested I claim first - are we just claiming names, or full roles?

I'm

Jack

, from Legend.

I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure that it is going to help a lot... I can't think who the scum will be, is Tom Cruise ever a bad guy?

He was in Collateral.

Is it possible that the scum could claim their own roles and we'd never know they are scum?

I'm expecting that, at least, a name claim from Astro would be helpful. That's why (again at Fuldu's suggestion that I choose who picks next) I'd like to hear his rolename. It's Monday now, so we shouldn't be waiting long.

I still think it's our logical next step though. I'm just not sure enough on who is working together. The Seol/Yosarian thing was obvious, but I tend to think it was a little too obvious And Phoebus has been pushing it pretty hard.. my gut says there's a good chance he's mafia with one of them (Seol probably), and Yosarian is innocent, or opposing scum.

I was thinking that too (obviously Yosarian as Phoebus' partner) - there's something about:

since no evil people have died, they can still take potshots at each other

that makes me think we can't learn anything about Phoebus from who he's attacking.

[Seol]

The claims of both Astro and Seol are rubbing me the wrong way. The Cruise characters might seem OK but their movies give off wrong vibes.

Reads to me like: I don't want to like these claims but I can't think of a reason to criticise them, so I'll talk in vague, uncertain terms like "vibes".

I shall reflect on Yos, pending his power claim. Maverick was rather the arrogant prat. If at all there is a Cruise role mafia, I think he would be a person who would think that he could get away with murder.

More so than Lestat (who killed for pleasure and food) or Vincent (who killed for a living)? You're flailing, Phoebus.

Also of note: MeMe really doesn't like Legend. I've read her review of it. I'm pondering if bias possibly went into Jack's role somehow?

Well, of those name claims, the one that seems the least probable to me is Seol's.

They can't both be true, surely - if Meme's got strong feelings about the film, how is it improbable?

And inhim, if Meme's feelings on Legend are well-known, would she be so obvious as to cast Jack as scum?

So, aside from the fact that he had to go first and came up with the worst name claim, I also didn't like this sentence from Seol:

I'm expecting that, at least, a name claim from Astro would be helpful. That's why (again at Fuldu's suggestion that I choose who picks next) I'd like to hear his rolename.

It seems a little too concerned about what people might think that he's supporting the name claim. "I'm not the one who wanted this. It's Fuldu, he suggested it. I'm just doing what he said."

I was concerned about claiming the

right way

, that's all. It's important that the claim method is determined by someone we can trust. Otherwise you can get cock-ups like so:

As an aside to inHim, there was a reason that I wanted each player to select who claimed next rather than just making a list the way you did. If Seol is scum, then his choosing Astronaut decreases the likelihood that Astronaut is scum, since it's to scum's benefit to get all the real claims out there before their turns come. But since that was the only choice made by someone other than you, that's the only conclusion we can draw. Please pay attention to instructions in the future.

I pointed out I was following your instructions partly to justify my picking the next claimant, but mostly to highlight those instructions so everyone else would follow them too. Maybe I should have been clearer.

[Seol]

Well, that was a bizarre endgame. Go Yosarian!