Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Sando]

/confirm

I'll be VLA from roughly the 12th to the 14th while I fly back to Sydney.

[Sando]

/re-confirm

[Sando]

Vote: SerialClergyman

Win

[Sando]

Me and Amished were the scum before the roles were changed.

As to whether I knew it should be 3/3/6, I thought so, but I know SFA about setups and didn't want to question it in thread, so I asked about it in our QTtopic.

[Sando]

I reckon lynch them anyway. Yet to be on sando's bandwagon for a lynch.. salivating over the prospect..

So you want to lynch 2 people without waiting to see what the first flips... Interesting.

[Sando]

I'm not sure how anyone else expected Scien to react, but I get pretty annoyed when someone is as condescending to a post of mine to say 'your post doesn't even warrent an answer'.

Porkchop, Zorblag's RVS vote is an example of a random vote on someone because of confirmations, he just votes the first person alphabetically that hasn't confirmed yet. Your vote had reasoning, you left nothing up to chance, you went through and found a reason to vote someone, and while it may not have been serious, it wasn't random. Making out that it was random when it wasn't, worries me.

Unvote, Vote: Porkchopexpress

[Sando]

Nope, I understand that fine, did you get the impression from my post that I wanted you to do that? Or did you fail to work out that I was merely stating that your post was reasonably insulting to Scien? Because that bit seemed fairly obvious in my post, didn't really need much insight to work out, well done on working it out though.

Wouldn't mind an explanation of the vote though.

[Sando]

While I suppose I deserved the condescending response from Sando, it falls in line with the previously-seen active lurking.

Is that your response to my request for reasoning on your vote? Are you accusing me of active lurking and that's why you voted me?

Porkchopexpress, it worries me because I do not believe it was random. You may claim that my assumptions are incorrect, but I cannot see how the vote and the reasoning can possibly be arrived at randomly.

[Sando]

Dragon? Ogre?

Blood Elf - Hawt.

[Sando]

Is this to play, or one of those silly 'if I were actually

in

WoW'?

To play - Undead
To be - BE (lol I made a funny)



Porkchop, can you please explain how voting for someone for not yet to confirm, like your vote on Serial, is

random

. Note the emphasis on random.

[Sando]

No, I commented on the Vi/Scien thing, I just didn't think it warrented a vote. You didn't notice the whole 'condescending' thing between me and Vi?

And a 'mostly untouched player' would basically be anyone other than Vi/Scien/ABR/VPB, so that seems like a pretty broad catagory.

Vi, accusing someone of active lurking on page 5 is utterly ludicrous. This seems like you've just come up with something that sounds good but requires literally no evidence (which you haven't provided), just to make yourself look town. Want to tell me where I've been lurking?

[Sando]

So in asking for how I'm lurking, you decide to post a rundown of my posts... That was clever of you, well done, quite useful, I'm sure.

[Sando]

Right, so in questioning something which you yourself, VPB, have said is odd to have not recieved an adequate response from Porkchop, I'm not being constructive? The fact that I'm engaging Vi (and ABR for that matter) in fairly pointless discussion while waiting for Porkchop to respond is merely an outcome of me being bored.

I still stand by my statement that accusing someone of active lurking after 5 pages is utterly ludicrous. You can say that my posts lack content... no shit, we're only 7 pages into the game now, and when I was voted for (and I quote) "active lurking" we were 5 pages in. No-ones posts has a large amount of content.

As I said, Vi's accusation of 'active lurking' is a meaningless accusation at this stage that seems specifically designed to appeal to a townie mentality.

But I'm happy arguing with you two until Porkchop eventually answers the question I've posed him, he's already tried to dodge it once.



BTW VPB, you weren't burnt in Quick and Dirty, you watched a mis-lynch with all 3 scum on it and the NK target telling you it was a stupid lynch (and who was pushing scum) pass you by, oh and the only other wagon of the day was on scum.

[Sando]

Well I'm pretty sure you voted me on Page 5, didn't actually check that though. And you've confirmed that you voted me for active lurking, although I didn't actually quote tag that... my bad. And yeah, there's been SFA content so far. So...

yes

Did the bolding/italics/underline make it more impressive? This was what I was going for. Maybe I should have capitalised the 'y', next time maybe...

Fake Edit: I checked, you DID vote me on page 5!!!one!!

I like that you make it so the quote from me pertains to 3 seperate statements then make a question directed at (presumably) 1 of those statments, that was useful.

Goodnight!

[Sando]

VPB, you're right, I was wrong, it was charlatan that made that comment, I attributed it to you in my mind, my bad.

Also VPB, you attack Serial for a gut vote, yet up until your latest post, this is basically what your attack on ABR has been. And yes, meta is basically gut.

I also took responsibility for my lynch last game, most townies are responsible for their own lynch I believe, especially early in the game. I was pointing out that maybe you had something to learn from it as well...

More worrying than Serial's lack of content is, to me, his movement away from his self professed meta.

Still waiting on porkchop...

I personally prefer a vote count at the start of the page, makes it easier to put posts in perspective on a re-read.

[Sando]

I don't believe I've seen ABR so touchy before. Clearly on the right path here.

I don't expect an experienced player who is town to be sensitive at all about being called scum this early in the game.

Really? I just see him basically diddling himself in the thread and being forced to participate.

Enough to make a judgement call on it.

Everyone plays differently, of course, but there is a certain standard of play I expect from people who I respect as players and are experienced. If I see variances from that, expect me to call him/her on it.

My playing experience with ABR is limited, but from my memory I don't recall him being so personally reactive in various games I have read him in.

Outlandish? Sure. Antagonistic? Definitely. Flustered into pushing his RVS vote as serious after a flippant call for his lynch... not so much.

I think it was reactionary, which is suspicious because it points out a sensitivity to being called scum.

Off the top of my head, I remember reading him as town in Incognito's Chosen game and some open with Jahudo. Most recently though (Quick and Dirty, The Amish Village) he's been scum.

These are the comments you've made about ABR since things got 'serious'. The first bolded comment looks like gut to me, the second is about the closest thing you've said to a case on ABR. There's not a lot there other than meta/gut.

In fact of content, there's SFA.

[Sando]

And he is indeed bitching over lack of content

That's not bitching, that's an accusation.

He also tried to excuse his own non-participation in the argument with Vi by saying that he can't be expected to be scumhunting very much when there wasn't really any content in the thread.

This is a lie, I was excusing a lack of content in my posts, which you were accusing me of. I've never tried to excuse my non-participation, because there's none to excuse. And I've never said you can't expect me to scumhunt. You're twisting what I said, here's your quote that I replied to:

She's saying your posts are devoid of content, which is fairly true.

You (town in general) made this same argument last game, claiming that I wasn't scumhunting. It's utter BS and you know it, it didn't work then, and I stand by the idea that you obviously needed a lesson on scumhunting. You're just making a general claim that you don't have to back up in the slightest.

Serial, are you sticking with your D1 plan of clearing a few townies and lynching anyone else?

Still going to wait for a response from porkchop.

[Sando]

So when Serial in one game said 'I think Sando is town' and turned out to be dead on, you went with it being a biased fluke over the rather more obvious 'these 2 know each other well and read a lot of each others game, and he read the meta well'?

We've played 2 completed games together, both times were town-town. 1 game we tried to kill each other, 1 game we were buddy buddy. Both times Ojanen killed Serial overnight I think?

[Sando]

Wow VPB, you're so delusional, it's almost comical. I don't expect you to agree with me though, as you're personally invested.

The LAL thing made me laugh though, good to see VPB has decided to ignore that.

[Sando]

Vi - Just out of curiosity, why are you asking for SCs meta on me? I don't mean what you expect to get out of it, I understand that, but what has prompted you to ask, what posts etc?

Amished - Why SC or ABR? I assume that's what you're getting at with your {}. I could understand saying something like 'I can see a 3 scum team in SC/ABR/Scien/OJ', but you seem to have singled out ABR and SC as mutually exclusive as scum, why?

[Sando]

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

You mean you don't already?

I hope not, you've have just lynched him 5 times...

[Sando]

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

You mean you don't already?

I hope not, you've have just lynched him 5 times...

In English this time.

Was just joking that if he hangs on your every word your 5 word post just lynched him 5 times.

[Sando]

I guess that answers my question.

And yeah I realised the use of the word 'to' after saying that joke

Vi you seem to have avoided the point that Serial was making regarding VPBs LAL comment. VPB made it quite clear that he never said LAL, yet Serials quote seems to contradict that. It's not simply a matter of trying to add legitimacy, he's clearly contradicting himself. Thoughts?

[Sando]

Sando, I thought VP made it clear that he was focused on ABR with the "didn't say LAL" comment; while he did say LAL after his first vote or something like that.

Oh, you're right, I went back and checked that, cheers. Vi and VPB can ignore my questions about that then.

[Sando]

Heya, I'm back, jetlagged to hell so won't get into content till I've at least had a nap, expect content in the next 12 hours from me.

[Sando]

@Sando: It’s pretty simple really. My opening vote is usually based on whatever little quirks the thread offers. I was aware that not everyone confirmed and it tickled my fancy to vote on that. When I looked back at the start of the game SC’s name came up. So that’s where my vote went. That strikes me as fairly random.

Ok, what about that is random? You came up with a reason for voting someone, voted them and just chucked on the ‘random’ tag. This is exactly what I found scummy, and all you can say is here’s some reasons why it wasn’t random, but I think it was random anyway.

However, other people are pressuring PCE for content, so I figure I can pressure you.

Does this strike anyone else as something a 10 year old would say?

VP Baltar: I can’t see where Serial stated he thought I was town? From where I sat it looked like he just said I was scumhunting. Last game yeah, he said it, haven’t seen it this game.

Anyone:
Is it just me or did the VPB/ABR thing go; VPB and ABR go at each others throats, then decide to jump on to the person who attacks them for it. This seems a little staged to me…

[Sando]

This is really one of the most relevant things you can find to comment on?

Also, defending a player before he or she has had a chance to reply in my book is at least implying some sort of town read on that person...which I explained earlier in the thread.

OMG it happened a few pages ago, ancient history!

You weren't even saying I was scum, just that I was bitching and posting no content. If your attack isn't saying that I'm scum, how is him defending me saying that I'm not scum?

ABR, are you saying you think Char/DDD/Amished are team-scum, or that independently they are scummy but might not be a team?

Serial, I don't think you answered my question, are you playing your usual D1 strategy of killing anyone non-town?

[Sando]

You seem to be a little preoccupied with side issues at the moment and I’m starting to get scummy vibes from it. Especially since you’ve barely spoken about the ABR/VP discussion amount.

While you're right, I didn't comment on the ABR/VP discussion (I thought it was a terrible argument, and it took me most of the argument to realise they weren't joking) it's over. You're the side issue I've been preoccupied with, and that was because you weren't posting, and then your response was completely inadequate.

@SC: It's been made clear that you haven't stated that Sando is town this game, but what is your read on him?

This is pretty funny, people like VPB are getting upset at Serial for saying I was town (which he didn't) and now you want to force him to say it.

Serial, answer my damn question you blaggard.

Zorblag, you're right, the porkchop things is very old, but that's mainly because he didn't respond to it, or anything for that matter. My vote on him is fairly meaningless now, I felt it wasn't until he finally answered my fairly simple question. His hostility in answering what is a fairly simple and innocuous question makes me think scum, but there are better prospects for today. Hence my vote will change at the bottom.

Saying that I haven't been involved is pretty harsh I feel though, up until now I think I've been one of the most involved people, and it's only because of long international travel and jetlag/catching up with people that has stopped me, and that's only in the last 4 days.

Charlatan, no, it's not as important, especially now he's at least given a semi-decent response. But I'm not going to ignore something just because he doesn't respond for a long time. He wasn't and still isn't the person I found most scummy, but I wanted to see his reaction and justification. It sucks and I think he gets scumpoints for it, so I think it was worthwhile. The person that I've wanted to vote over him has been receiving enough pressure without me, so I don't think anything was lost by my vote on porkchopexpress.

Personally, I'm reasonably happy with Serial as town at this point. Ojanen's lack of decisiveness paints her as scum from a meta point of view.

The only thing that had me worried about my scumread on Charlatan was the 'staged' part that I brought up before. Re-reading, I think that less likely. I think Charlatan's case on Serial is quite weak, I think he's latched on to some things (notably VPB's 'slip' about LAL) that really aren't notable. In general I think he's being defensive while throwing in token scumhunting that strikes me as poorly thought at and reasoned. Charlatan is obviously intelligent and well reasoned, his cases/attacks don't strike me as intelligent and well reasoned, only his defences.

Unvote, Vote: Charlatan

[Sando]

@Sando: If he {Charlatan} can intelligently defend himself (therefore I'm assuming that he's defending himself adequately if it's an intelligent defense), why does that make him scum?

This is similar to what Charlatan asked, so I'll just answer yours.

It's the differential between his defence of himself and his attacks. I obviously didn't express myself clearly enough. His defence being intelligent and well articulated obviously isn't scummy in itself, but neither does it make him town. However, when I see someone who has intelligent and well articulated defences of their actions, yet their attacks and cases on others lack this, it says to me that the person is spending a lot of time on their defence, and just trying to give a semblance of attacking.

Ojanen, while our play might be similar this game, my meta is different from yours. Actually, I don't have a scum meta since I've never played as scum (in a completed game at least) other than our hydra. Your play matches your scum-meta, and the claim that you're trying to influence your meta by playing differently seems odd, why would a townie try and act like their scum-meta?

I don't like him on the charlatan wagon.

I think this is referring to ABR, is this correct?

[Sando]

More than happy to swap onto PCE.

Unvote, Vote: PCE

Charlatan: I'm not sure what you mean by that's more likely for another person? My problem with you is that parts of your posts are intelligent, well articulated and clearly well thought out, other parts aren't in my opinion. I think the fact that the difference falls along fairly clearly defined lines makes me extremely suspicious of your motives.

My thoughts on VPB along the same lines... Well for 1 I have a lot lower opinion of him than of you. So the idea that he's constructing intelligent and well reasoned arguments doesn't really stand up. I find his attacks quite unconvincing, but then I find pretty much all of what he says unconvincing. I do find VPB reasonably scummy, just not for the same reason as I find you scummy.

Ojanen: Telling me that you want to change your meta then pointing me at recent games doesn't exactly inspire confidence. I have a reasonably unique insight into your scum play, and I think I've read every game you've played with Serial in it. Pretty much every time I've read a game you're in I've picked alignment correctly within a game-day. Your play today strongly suggests scum to me.

[Sando]

@Sando: I love how you swap votes while still leaving major suspicion about Char (your previous vote) while giving absolutely no reasoning for you to vote for PCE even though you're "more than happy to switch"

Seriously? ISO me and you'll find my reasoning. It was a couple of pages back, I'll give you that, but I was voting PCE for the first 15 odd pages... This is hardly out of the blue.

[Sando]

I agree with you that he made bad arguments. If you ask me, this is more a question of skill than alignment however.

This is rubbish.

No it's not.

[Sando]

"He never looked like being lynched"

Clearly the games are exactly the same then...

I wanted you to justify your 'rubbish' though, cheers.

[Sando]

VPB, why does me voting PCE mean I have to think Char is town?

[Sando]

Vote: PCE

Reasons haven't changed.

Vi, your case on me is pretty stupid. The quote you want special mention made of is me fairly tongue in cheek having a go at Serial for lack of support of his statement. And just so you know, when I say 'this is pretty funny', I actually mean funny, not scummy. I know they rhyme and all, but most people can work it out, it wasn't part of why I was voting PCE.

Vi, what about me moving off Charlatan do you find scummy?

xReckx, you think me and PCE are scumbuddies, or just 1 or the other?

Serial, why do you find Ojanen scummy? You seem to be the ignoring Vi's/Others case on me, why, and what are your thoughts on it?

[Sando]

The second question will be better answered when you explain more to me about why you're voting Porky beyond

I still find his response to that scummy, I think he was active-lurking for much of D1, and I think he went out of his way to avoid the Charlatan issue.

I also explained my 'no it's not' post to Serial shortly after he replied.

xReck, so I assume that if you think we could be scum-buddies, that yesterday/today was a ruse? What makes you think that?

[Sando]

Vi, what about me moving off Charlatan do you find scummy?

The second question will be better answered when you explain more to me about why you're voting Porky beyond

Yeah you're just avoiding the question now, I gave my reasons, you refused to answer what about me moving off Charlatan you found scummy?

By 'that' I meant the 'random vote' thing, and I don't remember him saying he was drunk regarding that, although that would have been a more satisfactory answer.

Unvote, Vote: Vi

And now an oportunistic jump onto Reck, noice one!

Not liking the way this lynch is happening on Reck;
DDD starts with 'well Reck was a good lynch yesterday'
Zorblag jumps on with 'pretty sure Reck is scum'
SC joins with 'hey let's lynch Reck and not post reasoning'
Albert jumps on with... nothing
Vi jumps on with 'well he's defending himself against this exhaustive case!'

The last 3 are the ones that really worry me.

Also, Hito aint done re-reading and posting yet, I wants his opinions.

[Sando]

Sando's primary interest is not in evaluating Rec as scum and instead in bringing suspicion to some people on the wagon.

Well to say reck is scum and vote him ends the day, so yeah, I thought more evaluation of the wagon was needed. You seem to agree that the reasoning on the wagon is weak, at least that's what I get from accusing me of following 5 peoples views on the wagon? The reason I pointed out SC/ABR/Vi is how their votes came on, and when they came on. This is the second time ABR seems to have blindly followed Serials 'hey lets vote this guy for no reason', and Serial isn't normally like this on D2. Vi's vote on Reck is just horrible, it's an opportunistic vote onto a wagon with little to no reasoning. Do you think that a wagon should only be analysed if/when it results in a lynch? That seems like a lot of wasted opportunity for scumhunting.

For those wondering about Serial, his D1 play is pretty typical of him, and his D1 play is pretty much identical between scum and town (ie, good luck catching Serial-scum D1). His previously used D1 playstyle, which is what I was questioning him over yesterday, was to try and clear people in his own mind and lynch pretty much anyone else. It was quite effective, as you can see in our previous game, where his attempts at doing this made him correctly call both a townie and scum on D1. For him to move away from this strikes me as odd, and it had fairly bad results. He seems to be taking the 'lynch anyone I don't think is town' from his previous playstyle, without actually bothering to try and clear anyone as town, with predictable results. He's not scumhunting, he's not questioning and pressuring people, all of which he's actually very good at. His D2 play and the light it shines on his D1 play is looking very scummy to me.

Reck, there has been a fair amount of tension surrounding me, but a lack of votes. I'm not sure what to make of it really. I don't really see how not hammering makes me a townie though...

Also, it's not just the fact that PCE 'random' voted non-randomly, it's more that he active lurked all through that period, then reacted with an overly aggressive and very poorly reasoned defence of his random vote. A simple 'yeah that random vote technically wasn't random, was just for a silly/meaningless reason in RVS' would have sufficed. Instead he decides that I'm pushing something that is old-news, despite not answering a simple question for the whole time, and vigorously defends the idea that his vote was random, which is in no way was. His response was way out of line with how I would have expected a townie to react.

[Sando]

Hyper-sensitivity to non-existant pressure alert!

How am I being hyper-sensitive? It's been happening a fair bit, and oh look, it happened again in the very next post after yours:

If I had been here from the start and had the accumulated political capital of a day of play this would probably be a vote for Sando

He thinks I'm scum, he actually thinks I'm the scummiest person in the game, yet doesn't vote me. How is it non-existant?

Hito, so you're happy with a ABR/DDD/Sando/Reck (in no particular order) lynch today? And your vote on ABR is because of? From what I can see it's so you can get a read on VPB who you're undecided on, who's reasoning you like on an ABR vote?

[Sando]

Serial, you seem to be saying that your vote on Reck was to see how ABR reacted, and that he reacted as you expected scum to react (jumping on the wagon). Are you saying this was your plan all along?

ABR, is there anyone you won't blindly follow?

Translation: "I still have a foot in both camps, but the Reckoner wagon seems to have become less popular now."

Umm, when Ojanen says 'Reck looks like a juicy target as town', she's not saying he's scum, how does what you quoted indicate that she either has a foot in both camps or that the wagon is less popular?

[Sando]

Really? You put him to L-3, and you find it surprising you got 2 more votes?

[Sando]

My apologies for my slackness.

Ugh appeal to Zoblag authority.

How so? My impression of Zorblags 'ABR Meta' posts have been pretty nuetral. I would have thought an appeal to authority in that case would be to someone justifying his towniness.

I competely agreed with the idea that Vi was shit-stirring. I think Vi has appeared to be much more useful than she actual is. Maybe my views are distorted for the same reasons though, but I think Vi has done more to appear to scumhunt than actual scumhunt. Having said that, Vi's latest response to SC screams town to me.

Your whole code thing, wtf are you talking about? I'm so confused by that. And what do you mean by hito is voting without Albert meta? Do you think this is a good thing, a bad thing?

Albert, why on earth would 1 of 3 scum who didn't know who to NK look to a townies opinion and risk outing themselves? They have 2 scumbuddies to get ideas from on who to NK. Maybe it's WIFOM, but it would seem rediculous for reck-scum to do that in thread.

[Sando]

Why is Sando still voting for Vi?

Because 1 post that I find townie does not a townperson make...

Why is ABR not answering my question?

[Sando]

What I don't like about VPB is he just attacks the same 2 people all day. Day 1, charlatan and me. Day 2, RECK and me. No imagination at all. Scum for sure, guys, lynch him up.

Reck thinks he's been most vocal about you and Ojanen, you disagree? You disagree to the point that you think VPB hasn't attacked Ojanen at all today?

[Sando]

Yep, nothing has changed about Vi's consistent avoiding of questions, see mine about why Vi found my D1 play scummy, and Zorblag's regarding previous games roles. I think that much of Vi's play has been trying to appear to be scumhunting, when not actually doing so. The early attack on me on D2, which was a pretty easy attack to make considering D1, with poor reasoning not backed up when questioned, before making an oportunistic jump onto Reck, again, with poor reasoning.

Away for ~24 hours.

[Sando]

Vi: I'm confused, how does not claiming prev-mason help you do that? I can understand if you're looking for a read on your previous partner, but to get a read on a 3rd party? And all of this was for ABR specifically?

As to what you were in the previous game, it was never about what you were, but your avoidance of the question. This would be bleedingly obvious to anyone who saw what I was last game. As I claimed that I was scum last game, I'm obviously not looking to accuse you of 'well you were scum last game you must be this time' given that I know you weren't, and I obviously either know that the roles changed or would like everyone to think that. You avoided the question despite repeated attempts to get you to answer it, I think that's scummy, and I still can't see how 'well I wanted to read ABR' is good reasoning.

I totally asked Sando about this very same thing in 680! I thought I used "elephant in the room" already ITT.

Considering it wasn't what I was accusing you of, I thought it was a pretty stupid question. I threw blame on the last 3 voters on that wagon fairly equally, and said it was opportunistic of you because I thought that, plus other things, deserved a vote. You then decided that my suspicion of you, and DDD (not one of the 3 mentioned), were particularly bad from me. I never said that you were trying to get a quick-lynch on Reck, I said that you were opportunistically jumping on a wagon with little to no reasoning.

As for the question that I missed, what do I think of the VPB/ABR circus: The fact that it's now happened both days, with little to no result, makes me think distancing. I don't recall it resulting in a vote either way on D1, and as ABR has pointed out, VPBs vote is hardly going to result in an ABR lynch at this stage, so it's a safe distancing vote. ABR's vote on VPB is in fairly stark contrast to his vote on Reck (actually all of his votes are really) in that he doesn't really push for a lynch like he is on Reck. It looks to me like they distanced from each other early D1 and have decided to remind people of this D2. Neither's case strikes me as genuine, but then I haven't felt any of their cases are genuine really this game, so I could just be misreading.

@Hito - What's wrong with Serials 761? He merely states that he might join Ojanen's 'sexy wagon'. I don't see how this is at odds with previous play/statements?

[Sando]

The 'sexy wagon' reference was a game where Ojanen replaced in and I asked her to join the wagon I was pushing at the time by saying 'come join my sexy wagon'. Unfortuantely for me she was also scum, didn't bus her buddy and killed me that night.

Yeah I got the reference, but I don't see the problem that hito has with what you said even if the reference wasn't there. And hito wasn't in the last game, so I assumed he didn't get the reference

[Sando]

And rec continues to try and hurt the town by securing posthumous town lynches.

Why does this sound like you think he'll flip town?

It sounds to me that DDD thinks that reck will flip town. He's saying that reck is trying to lynch town in the days subsequent to his death.

Wait what?

DDD thinks reck is town, but thinks that reck is doing what only a scum would do in trying to get town lynched?

You confuse me.

Serial, you're right, I got my prev Oj+SC games mixed up.

*I don't only ask questions in self-defense

So you questioned why I accused you of something that you know I didn't accuse you of? That's just retarded.

You do realise that reck declared me town after I weighed in on his wagon right? I thought the last wagon was terrible, I'll look at this latest one today.

[Sando]

'DDD thinks reck is scum, and thinks reck is trying to lynch town in the following days'?

[Sando]

If reck flips scum, then I don't understand how what he said would get town lynched in subsequent days. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Unvote

I need to think about some things for a bit and I want to relook at someone.

This was my thinking, hence wanting to clarify.

[Sando]

Reck flips scum - we look at him naming people to be lynched tomorrow and laugh.

Reck flips town - we look at him naming people to be lynched tomorrow and consider it in light of it being a confirmed townies opinion.

Scum can't really organise posthumous lynches that way, therefore I can only agree with VPB, DDD looks like he's saying he thinks Reck is town.

[Sando]

Serial Meta

Serial has deviated fairly significantly from my meta view of him, especially on D2. Serials D1 meta is pretty much a null tell every time, he plays the same basically every game, unless he gets a really strong read one way or another. As he stated, he likes to play a pretty jovial D1. D2 this is not the case, he’s much more aggressive and logical with his scumhunting, and he rarely ‘gambits’. Things like his claimed gambits of getting ABR to OMGUS vote him, and testing the waters with the Reckoner wagon fall outside of Serials typical play. He’s a dog with a bone once someone is in his sights, and he’s been anything but this game.

Serials treatment of Ojanen:

This is fairly meta, and some of this comes down to me saying ‘serial has told me xyz’, which at the moment you have to just take on faith. But I’ve decided to put it in, worst comes to worst I’ll be lynched/NKd at some point and you’ll see that it comes from a town POV with no need or want to lie.

Serial has basically the same view on Ojanen as me meta wise. Ojanen was a newbie in my first game, which she won as scum. We’ve both since played with her a few times, and I’ve played in a hydra with her. Serial asked my views on Ojanen and we’ve ‘compared notes’ on Ojanen, as she’s probably the most common and best player we’ve played against regularly. So my opinion of Ojanen has developed in talking to Serial, so our views are pretty similar. That view is that Ojanen is very non-commital as scum. The difference in Ojanens scum and town play has been very very distinct until her last few games, when I think VLA/sickness has caused her town play to look scummy. But before Ojanen flipped pro-town this game, I’d have lynched Ojanen pretty much purely on this read, and Serial, who is a more gut player than me, would probably do the same. I just want to highlight how strong both of our feelings were on our Ojanen read.

In light of this, Serials mild accusation against Ojanen is the first thing I started getting suspicious of. You can see from my D1 play that I was highly suspicious of Ojanen, but I didn’t know what to make of her atypical defence and was having a pretty lazy day to be fair, so not much came of it. I’m incredibly confident that Serial would have had the same, or close to, opinion of Ojanen’s D1 play, yet he stayed on the sidelines, preferring to throw the odd accusation but never follow it up. In Iso 7 he questions Ojanen’s lack of vote, and Iso 20 calls for people to look into Ojanen, and then echoes my view of Ojanen in 31. For someone who trusts his gut as much as Serial, not following this up on someone who he feels he has a very good meta read on looks very dodgy.

Serial’s Charlatan Case:

In Iso 15 Serial jumps on the Charlatan wagon to ‘avoid confirmation bias’, so pretty weak start. In Iso 16 he calls out Charlatan for his attack on VPB’s LAL comments, something I also did, yet Serial found me pro-town. But all this is foreplay, it gets fun in Iso 21.
Iso 21 Serial basically boils down his case on Charlatan to fence-sitting:

this is still fence sitting

- Charlatan was not fence-sitting, finding both sides of an argument scummy is not fence-sitting, and it’s not abnormal/scummy.
- Serial suggests that since Charlatan found ABRs reasoning weak, that Charlatan therefore must find the target of that reasoning, VPB, pro-town. Why serial would ignore the idea that scum that were distancing from each other would obviously use weak arguments, or that he could have found both sides arguments weak, I don’t know, but it looks scummy to me.
Iso 34 – Attacks ABR for moving off Charlatan (this ties in quite funnily (read: scummily) with Iso 44 on D2.)
Iso 42 –

We've just had a game where charlatan skillfully convinced the entire town that he was a townie. He never looked like being lynched and didn't make any glaring mistakes that I noticed.

So Serial is stating that Charlatan’s meta has changed from last game, where Charlatan was scum, so Charlatan must be scum?
Iso 44 – Serials First D2 post, and he accuses ABR of jumping onto the Charlatan wagon when he didn’t need to, interesting take given his attacks on ABR for leaving the wagon in the first place.

Serials Reck flip-flop

Iso 46 – Votes Reck
Iso 47 –

Vi - xRx came onto my scumlist during the wagon hopping yesterday and PCE was always lightly scummy, I just thought the charlatan argument wasn't resolved

Serial did not mention Reck D1, yet he was apparently ‘on his scumlist’...
Iso 48 – Yes, his next post, Serial starts eating away at the Reck wagon, and he happily derails the wagon.
Then in Iso 58 we get his

Reck’s is a poor wagon, imo.

So Serial starts a wagon, realises ‘oh crap, I just started a wagon on my buddy’, and derails.

Lastly, both Serial and I were fairly upset last game about the lack of NK speculation, giving scum free kills. Yet this game he hasn’t done anything to try and turn that around, and this is with him and Ojanen both being on the same wagon at the end of yesterday, VPB. Surely if it worried him so much last game, the NK of his wagon buddy would ring alarm bells for him...

Vote: SerialClergyman

I agree with Zorblag in suspecting Serial and Hito. Hito claiming that the only reason he didn't vote me D2 was that there was no support conveniently ignores the Vi vote on me for a fair amount of D2, which was the same number of votes as ABR had when Hito was 'forced' to wagon him. Thinking Serial is a better lynch for today though.

VPB, your vote isn't Reck-wagon motivated, what is motivating it other than to force someone who is stated as VLA to post?

Vi, you do find my Reck-wagon statements scummy?

[Sando]

I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying that VP Baltar is scum?

Nope. I'm saying that I would expect Serial to see Ojanens death as vindication of his D2 suspicion of VPB.

What I'm saying is that Serial felt that after I was lynched and he was NKd on D1/N1 in the last game, not enough attention was paid to who we were attacking. We were both pushing an Amished lynch, and he turned out to be scum.

Now considering that Serial was on a wagon with last nights NK target, why isn't he bringing up the possibility that Ojanen was killed to detract attention from who she suspected. If he felt that scum were getting away with kills on people attacking them with relative impunity last game, and I know he did (and you can too if you read the dead QTopic, although we also spoke about it outside of that), then not pursuing it today strikes me as extremely odd.

My personal views on VPB are mostly pro-town. I had a lot of suspicion on D1 and early D2, but I think that was clouded by him annoying me greatly.



So you don't find me scummy for derailing, but for a lack of comment on Reck himself? Fair enough. But you think I'm scum, therefor you must think that my comments about the wagon were scum trying desperately to save a scum-partner?

And VPB, yeah, I reread and saw where you said the Reck thing was scummy. You the same as Vi, or think the derail was more the scummy move?

[Sando]

So you don't find me scummy for derailing, but for a lack of comment on Reck himself? Fair enough. But you think I'm scum, therefor you must think that my comments about the wagon were scum trying desperately to save a scum-partner?

It's plausible that your derail had Town motivation. But then three questions are raised--
1) Why did you avoid talking about xRx (among others) yesterday?
2) Was your opposition to the first xRx wagon based on anything the wagonee actually

did

, or just the votes on the wagon?
3) You said you were primed to hate the second xRx wagon as well at the end of the Day, yet you haven't said anything about it yet. Your thoughts on how it went down?

1) I wasn't specifically trying to avoid it, but I didn't have much/anything to add. I found Reck slightly scummy, maybe enough to justify a vote, but probably not, and my misgivings about the wagon pushed me away from voting.

2) Well I wasn't a keen supporter of the wagon, irrespective of the wagonees, so that was a bad read from me. But my opposition to the wagon was because of the wagoners, yes. If not for my misgivings about that, I might have voted, I might not have, but I wouldn't have raised serious doubts about the wagon.

I guess you can say my lack of vote was Reck-action driven, my opposition was wagoner misgivings driven.

3) I don't think I ever said I was primed to hate it. But yes, I was going to comment on it. DDD and Zorblag were still there, and while I didn't find him scummy, Zorblag's play reminded me very much of my lynch last game, where he simply voted and stayed on someone because nothing better came up. I've expressed my suspicion of Hito today, and I started to have general misgivings about him late yesterday. ABR avoids questions and justifications, but I didn't mind the return to Reck.

But I was probably most suspicious of Serial, Vi and Hito at the end of yesterday, so since Serial and Vi weren't on it, and I didn't think any of the votes looked opportunistic or the like, and I didn't mind as much how people joined, I was less concerned with the second wagon.

VPB jumping off the wagon due to confusion then jumping back on as soon as he self-votes strikes me as odd though. I personally find it very confusing that a scum would self-vote, I don't know why the self-vote would have made it an easier decision.

VPB, how did the self-vote clear up your confusion?

[Sando]

And what of the VP Rampage duo?

What do you mean? You mean your question about the interaction between VPB and ABR? I did answer that regarding the VPB/ABR 'circus'.

But you said yesterday that you were waiting on hito to finish reading. If the hito/Porkchop slot is scum as you say, wouldn't that be at cross-purposes?

I don't see why, I found his previous incantation scummy, and he was obviously alluding to finding me scummy. Interaction is the cornerstone of scumhunting, why would I want to avoid it as town?

I'm curious as to what gave you a neutral read on xRx considering you were one of the people asking him questions before the wagon particularly took off. (In particular, he didn't directly answer your last question )

I actually said that I found him slightly scummy, but am unsure that I would have voted him under a neutral situation. I simply didn't find much of what Reck did scummy, compared to others. I think a few people were going on fairly gut reads, and I didn't get a gut scum read on him.

Again, I thought you had general misgivings about the PorkchopExpress slot as early as D1?

I did. But in the first instance, they were D1 suspicions, carried over into D2, and secondly, they were reinforced mainly because I felt he was avoiding posting and basically actively lurking. Him replacing out said to me that there was another reason for a general lack of activity. And as Zorblag said, I think Hito's catch-up posts gave him town-cred, deserved or not, and I think I bought that a bit.

My gues, should I be lynched here, is that another supporter of the hito lynch will probably die tomorrow.

Veeeeeery interesting. So you don't disagree with my assertion that you're keen to look at the NK and who the target was attacking, yet you are ignoring the death of Ojanen, despite her being on the same wagon as you at the end of D2...

[Sando]

I think ABR, DDD, Sando are town. That leaves scum between hito, VP, Vi and Troll.

You should kill hito tomorrow, and probably VP after that.

Whoa there, the strength of your conviction is just blowing me away!

You said in the dead QTopic last game, and I believe in the eng-game wrap-up, and even more strongly to me personally, that you thought that not enough was done to analyse the NK. You've again stated that you think that NKs, and even lynches, are targetted at people attacking scum. And yet, despite your wagon-buddy, Ojanen, being NKd, your prime suspect from yesterday has gone down your scumlist. Your two statements regarding VPB being scum are that he's basically a 50% chance of being scum because xyz are town' and that he should 'probably' be lynched, not tomorrow, but the day after, after we should definitely kill Hito tomorrow.

You also stated that you don't necessarily believe that both scum were on the wagon, yet the only person of the 4 you think are possible scum that weren't on the wagon was Vi, and you've barely mentioned him today, or yesterday.

You have no conviction, you're going after Hito because you think he's the best chance of you avoiding a lynch. You're avoiding going after the person you found most scummy at the end of D2 and who should have, from your own statements, gone up in scumminess to you.

My accusation regarding the inviting the OMGUS from ABR was from you saying ‘well I expected the OMGUS vote from Albert’.

As for the Charlatan comment, saying ‘his scum play is great, therefore his town play must be great’ is illogical at best.

[Sando]

1) Serial is wrong, I won’t, but I can see why he’d think so. It was my first game dude

2) About the only thing I’m prepared to back off from is the ABR gambit bit. It was mainly something contributing to my gut meta on you. I can’t see where you’ve asked me for quotes outside of that though? I never claimed that you didn’t find VP scummy, asking me to find quotes of something I never claimed you said is kind of odd...

You’ve taken 1 part of what I said about Charlatan and tried to pull it apart. I did provide a quote and I’ve stated that I find your logical conclusions incorrect. Other than that, you've basically ignored my other points regarding Charlatan.

3) Yeah I picked that

I’m prepared to accept the Albert thing, I probably read too much into a comment. Not Charlatan though, you’ve only addressed 1 part of it, and not to my satisfaction.

You seem insist that my VPB point only has merit if you’d actually changed your opinion of VPB from scum to town, something you’ve only recently stepped back from when I pointed out the problem with your logic there.

As to me assuming that VPB and you must be scumbuddies, that’s very simplistic mate. Yes, it’s the simplest and most obvious answer, but in reality, all that my case is predicated on in terms of partners is that you’re much less likely to be scumbuddies with Hito given todays events. But considering I've been burned a fair bit with linkage cases (damn you Ojanen), I don't like to rely on them 1 way or the other.

Your attack on Hito and your lack of conviction about VPB says to me that you’ve read the lay of the land today and seen Hito as your best chance of avoiding a lynch. Saying that we should lynch Hito today before looking at you confirms this to me.

Serial: Who is the last scum then, after Hito?


Hito: I haven’t managed to wrap my head around what you’re saying, but one thing stood out to me.

Let's assume I'm lynched. SC is more or less confirmed town

This is with you flipping town I assume. Why is Serial more or less confirmed town? Also, your paragraph linking to about 4 of ABRs posts makes no sense, please re-read and check your links/wording.

[Sando]

SC being town seems predicated on him calling for your death, and ABR realising that he had an opportunity to win by killing SC today then you tomorrow?

So the entire case of SC being town is based on ABR being scum? And vice-versa?

[Sando]

This is either misunderstood by me or stupid.

I'm entertaining the possibility (in fact, them ore I think about it, probability) that hito actually is town after what he's done.

Could you put it on ice to knock off another scummy player in hito

Just an FYI for you, I'm not just going to look at your latest post and ignore all of your previous ones... You don't get to change your mind and instantly have everyone forget what you've said previously.

You've ignored (correct me if I'm wrong) my analysis of your fence-sitting accusation against Charlatan. You've ignored (again, correct me if I'm wrong) the problem of you attacking ABR for getting off the Charlatan wagon, then attacking him for getting on it...

[Sando]

kids these days with their tv and their videogames...

This made me lol.

[Sando]

Sando, I thought hito was probably scum and knew I wasn't, that's the motivation for pushing hito like that. I now think I was wrong based on his Albert switch.

Whatever your current thinking is, when it mattered, you went for Hito, and the way you went for it and ignored VPB looks like you went with your best chance of getting an opposing lynch to yourself.

[Sando]

What about you, Sando? Are you committed to the clergyman cause?

It's like I'm raising a benefit here.

Oh yes, loud and proud.

[Sando]

My problem with Hito's case is this, he thinks that scum have set up both wagons, and that they will use SC or Hito flipping town as 'evidence' that the other is scum - Hito, please correct this if I'm mis-repping, cause this is the jist of what you seem to be saying to me, and it's why I think it's rediculous.

Yes, I if nothing else happened right now, and Serial was lynched and flipped town, all things being equal, I'd gun for Hito tomorrow. But I'd gun for Hito if he flipped scum as well... I don't like linkage cases, and I think you are both independantly scummy, and independantly the scummiest players in the game at the moment, by far. Considering that you and Serial are saying that each other is town, it seems unlikely that scum will turn around tomorrow and say 'zomg Serial was pushing Hito, and Hito was town, Serial is obv scum!'. Be funny if they tried though.

Maybe it's just me being in the position of the person who's absolutely gunning for Serial today, but how can scum have set up this awesome situation for themselves? Did they magically guess that someones first post of the day would be a fuck-off case on someone not themselves?

Hito, you've said you don't think I'm scum, if ABR isn't scum, what about your theory? Can anyone else be the scum setting this up?

Serial, why is Hito so pro-town to you?

[Sando]

I agree with sando, I reckon one of hito or SC is scum

You need to re-think this buddy... I actually agreed with Zorblag in my first post in saying that Serial and Hito were scum... Vi voted you before I even posted, and you were in VPBs top 3 in his first post. Claiming that they suddenly had a change of heart and merely went along with me after I posted is an absolute lie. There was only 1 person who didn't suspect either you or Hito before I posted, DDD, and oh look, he didn't go along with either wagon after the cases were made.

So tell me oh wise and wonderful ones, who exactly saw my case and saw an opportunity? Stop saying 'scum', you apparently don't think me and ABR are scum Serial, and you state that you and Hito are town, that leaves 4 people, 2 of which by definition must be scum, get specific or get dead.

Also, *gist and *ridiculous. What shithouse school did you go to anyway?

One with spellcheck when I wasn't in a rush

[Sando]

Serial: Hito, you're scum.

As for a 'perfect' situation for scum. Consider that Vi has never been seen as scum by anyone but me, who hasn't mentioned him today, perfect situation for scum. Zorblag literally hasn't been voted the entire game, including in RVS even, perfect situation for scum. I've gone from being seen as probable scum to openly agreeing that I'll lynch 2 people in 2 days regardless of flip, and being called town for it, perfect for scum.

The argument of 'look at this situation, it's perfect for scum' doesn't ring true, there's so many perfect situations for scum in this game. And as I said, show me who you think is scum (it's not a big field after you eliminate you and Hito) or give it a rest. If this is being capitalised on by scum, you're in the best situation to show who and how, just throwing out a generalised 'this is too good to be true' accusation is just confirming my suspicions at this point.

[Sando]

This is exactly what I thought the scum would be doing, and a lack of linkage cases is exactly what I think scum are going for.

Yeah, I know that's your thinking, hence why as a townie I think your reasoning is bad. Scum avoiding a linkage makes little sense, you can't say 'I will lynch x today and y tomorrow irrespective of flips' and expect people to go along with it. Scum are the ones likely to try and set up a linkage of saying 'well if Serial flips town, that means Hito must be scum because of xyz links'.

Zorblag or VPB

Zorblag is one lucky SOB if so, he names 2 scum, and happens to get me to not only agree with him, but make a case on him. VPB I'll accept.

Only way I'm getting off either of you is for another case, just saying 'zomg if you're wrong town will lose' is not going to convince me or scare me off. This more specifically applies to Serial, Hito has at least provided some ideas on who is scum based on what's happening, I just don't buy it at the moment. I've asked Serial multiple times to provide specific accusations on players surrounding this scum-conspiracy, with no response.

[Sando]

Yeah, I know that's your thinking, hence why as a townie I think your reasoning is bad. Scum avoiding a linkage makes little sense, you can't say 'I will lynch x today and y tomorrow irrespective of flips' and expect people to go along with it. .

That's kind of ignoring the elephant in the room that people DID say that and everyone WAS going along with it, and as far as I can tell, you still are.

My understanding is that those going along with it are going along with the 2 separate cases, and what is wrong with that?

[Sando]

You suck, Sam.

Can't talk more now, at work. Zorblag making me itch.

That's

your specifics?!

Calling DDD and Hito town, and me a probable, and any of the other 4 could be scum, but most probably VPB (never mind the fact that there is 2 scum). Convincing.

A HUGE part of yours and Hito's argument today has been that scum are setting up a double-mislynch. You're the ones seeing it happening, how about showing specifics to it, rather than 'well they nodded and smiled along with it'. Show how the scum are being disingenuous etc.

[Sando]

I want to hear some actual, serious speculation about what it would mean if he flips town, before any lynch happens.

Slight scum-points for those pushing the wagon, slight town points for those against, gee that was tough...

What do you expect to happen? You've whinged about the fact that some people, myself included have previously stated that we'll lynch you regardless of what he flips, and now you want to know what we'll do if he flips town?

Yeah you're not drawing this out with pointless questions at all...

Personally, while my view has modified slightly since I stated that I'd simply push on you tomorrow Hito, his flip will have very little impact on me. I simply don't trust linking cases, without trusting links, lynch flips have little impact on my thinking.

A question for everyone and anyone:

Did anyone think either Serial or Hito were possible/probable masons going into today? If so, why?

[Sando]

Yeah, cause we haven't been asking for those reads all day... no, not at all...

You may fire when ready.

Wait a sec.

Give me one more day and I'll give you my thoughts on everyone.

Huh?

Albert has just intimately gone through a game where I won as scum in this very setup and I can't believe he would view my game there as anything like this one.

I've never seen you play like this as town...

[Sando]

You recall wrong, in both cases.

[Sando]

Serial is doing afternoon shift today I believe, which starts about nowish, so I wouldn't expect an imminent post if he's re-reading during work.

[Sando]

Man, I played so badly for the first 2 days ><

Ojanen wasn't VT from her play, I wasn't all that surprised in hindsight when she died. I was vaguely surprised when I died, but me and ABR were so obviously tied together in my last day that he was a dead-man-walking. That was my fault, I played it terribly. Bad reads also set up our kills, we figured either Vi or Zorblag would die N2

I think I personally as a Mason felt I'd done SFA for 2 days and needed to actually do something. Hito was right on the money, it was set up that competing bandwagons would be set up on him and SC, it was just by us masons Predicating that reasoning on ABR being scum was what made it hold literally no water for me, and SC looked like a drowning rat desperately holding onto weak reasoning there. We did go into N3 basically thinking Hito was town though, I just didn't want to say anything because I wanted scum to think I'd gun for him the next day and leave me alive.

I doubt Serials bad play would have seemed as bad if not for me, to be fair to him. I purposefully locked into him on D3, and a lot of my case was personal meta. There wasn't much he could say to me, and it would have looked a lot like floundering to others. He had a very limited window where he could have convinced me of his towniness, and his slightly hesitant play cost him that. He looked a lot worse than he was I think.

Good play by scum, and bad play by town at certain crucial points really hurt town. Hito impressed me with not only getting out of what we set up on him and Serial, but definitively declaring him town. VPB really stepped up for town in the end as well.

I think scum played really well though, and as Zorblag inferred, while I think D5 could have gone either way, I think D6 would have gone badly for town either way.

I didn't see how I gave myself away as mason, but I knew that my terribad play meant ABR was goooone, and the no-lynch was fairly pointless.

[Sando]

Hito, you haven't seen the mason QT, but SC dying had the desired effect, me and ABR didn't really think you were scum after that. I'll try and dig it out, it's fairly uninteresting. I doubt you dying would have had the same effect on views on SC.

ABR, I'm not entirely sure what you're on about with trusting us too much, we both had a read on SC that he himself has validated as being partly on him, on one day, that you agreed with as one of your top 2-3 suspects. So on one day we mislynched based on our (OJ + me) reads, a read that we'd basically agreed you wouldn't support during the same day... Other than that there was no real coordination in our attacks, quite the opposite, that was the problem.