Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Albert B. Rampage]

Mafia Meetup Caribbean...sounds like a plan.

hito: if SC swings and turns up scum, anything I say now will just be a waste of bandwidth.

[Albert B. Rampage]

No wait. I take that back.

MAFIA MEETUP CARIBBEAN ADVENTURE

Definitely sounds better that way.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Albert, do you remain confident about hito given his change of heart?

What!? Did he have a heart transplant? I hope that Obama's health reform will soften up the surgery costs for him a bit. Universal health care for all, scum or otherwise, aye?

It's not that simple though.

I think any universal health care plan would have to come with a income based scheme or means testing. If you can afford to pay for health care you should pay, however you would be able to receive a percentage back through a medicare rebate scheme.

Additionally, the government should encourage those who can afford private health care to purchase it. The government could offer tax incentives or rebate a portion of the cost. Businesses should also be encouraged to continue supporting the health care plans of their employee's.

Early intervention would be the greatest saving to any health care system. Catching a potential problem before it becomes something worse is the greatest asset offered by universal health care.

It is also certain that the vast majority of people in this country would be willing to contribute to a universal health care system if it was affordable and maintained the quality of care now available.

Oh wait, what were we talking about? Ah yes, I'm confident.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The possibilities are many and I have only touched on a few of my initial thoughts.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Holy sh*t, fuckin snowstorm outside. Fuck meeeee

[Albert B. Rampage]

O.K. bottom line, Serialclergyman is scum, hito is his partner.

GODDAMN I suck at acting humble.

[Albert B. Rampage]

WOW well that was weird.

I was on a huge sugar rush. Like. Huge.

I am back to my normal self.

[Albert B. Rampage]

O.K. well I think all this is quite honestly mental masturbation.

We need to lynch SC and see where the chips fall.

If SC flips town, then we let go of all previous assumptions and reconsider our options. If he flips scum, we look for connections then.

I am behind a SC wagon. gogo

[Albert B. Rampage]

Danny, VPB, le coup de grace, por favor.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Albert, thoughts on hito if I'm town?

My imagination doesn't stretch that far.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I will reassess. On your town flip. What part of that wasn't clear?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Danny, VPB, le coup de grace, por favor.

Not leaning that way, plus not possible any more with Vi's unvote.

Temporary setback.

No way in hell are we going to explore any more alternative wagons with two claims already, although from probscum. Three claims will pigeonhole the two masons left. Serialclergyman has to go.

[Albert B. Rampage]

What slip?

[Albert B. Rampage]

If you're two to have claimed, it's possible you're both scum and you gleaned no new information.

If there are three to have claimed, you necessarily will have gained information on who is not a mason.

[Albert B. Rampage]

What about you, Sando? Are you committed to the clergyman cause?

It's like I'm raising a benefit here.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Time to lynch.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Mod: Time to Deadline

[Albert B. Rampage]

The reason he HAD to is that he gave a confirmed town read on SC.

Exact quote:

The last scum have to be DDD and hitogoroshi.

Serialclergyman and Vi are almost confirmed town. VPB is like a poor man's charlatan in this game; quite bad at it but thinks he is as good as the good players. I don't have much insight into Sando and Zorblag's play, but I think that DDD and hito makes the most sense.

So the scum were:

RECKONER
DDD
hitogoroshi

I'll have a case up next week.

A short moment later, I posted:

Random observation: SC thinks Sando is town because he doesn't think he'd try to derail a wagon on a scumbuddy at L-1, when SC himself tried to derail the wagon on xRx.

Good point...

And then Sando made his case:

Vote: SerialClergyman

I agree with Zorblag in suspecting Serial and Hito. Hito claiming that the only reason he didn't vote me D2 was that there was no support conveniently ignores the Vi vote on me for a fair amount of D2, which was the same number of votes as ABR had when Hito was 'forced' to wagon him. Thinking Serial is a better lynch for today though.

VPB, your vote isn't Reck-wagon motivated, what is motivating it other than to force someone who is stated as VLA to post?

Vi, you do find my Reck-wagon statements scummy?

VPB agrees:

VPB, your vote isn't Reck-wagon motivated, what is motivating it other than to force someone who is stated as VLA to post?

It is actually. I feel looking back that you weren't commenting much on Reck, which is a viable scum strategy. That being said, I do think Serial may be a better case to pursue and a cursory glance at your case (short on time atm) has me a agreeing with some of your points, particularly the Reck flip and his weird play this game in relation to his meta.

Unvote, Vote: SerialClergyman

Catching up with a few other things in a few hours when I have some more time.

Zorblag agrees:

I voted hitogoroshi over SerialClergyman because my scum read on hitogoroshi is a bit stronger. I'm pretty willing to be part of either wagon today

Vi agrees:

I don't know anything about SerialClergyman's meta, so I can't evaluate that. The rest of your case looks surprisingly decent.

DDD agrees:

Really interesting points from Sando in regards to SC who had been giving me bad feelings since his disaster yesterday with ABR. I guess I expect town-SC to at some point try and convince me of some ridiculous theory he's come up with and doesn't make any sense to me and I haven't see that at all, he's played a rather humdrum conventional game which doesn't mesh with the town meta I have of him. I don't have the other half of the meta so I don't want to make assumptions but it has bothered me.

I think VPB raises good points about PCE and that's why Hito is a bit lower on my list than some. If I'm being brutally honest I don't have a lot of respect for Rec's play so I just don't seeing bussing when another wagon was wide open as his first instinct.

Unvote

Even Hitogoroshi decides to vote:

Sorry for the random silent day there. I've been ADD-ing like hell the last few days (is that a verb? let's say yes) and having such trouble keeping focus it's almost cripplingly impossible for me to get anything done at all. This post may be scatterbrained but at least it's here.

@hito: Nothing will ever come from a vote that isn't cast. I thought you said you were over this meta.~


Elaborate a bit on your thoughts about these two not getting lynched.

If my ABR vote was 'stale' before there's not exactly a whole lot more new stuff to add that would convince anyone at the moment. As for Sando, the biggest thing I didn't like about him after my ISO-posting was his tip-toeing around Reck and that's the sort of thing that you need to them around to talk about.

I like Sando 928. I still don't like how little he had to do with the Reck wagon and the fact that his vote on Vi is rarely pushed and instead gives me the vibe of 'look guys I am voting for a player no one else is, that means I am an independent figure and not scum!" But for reasons you are about to see I'm glad for him helping me finally pin down SC.

@Vi, Albert B. Rampage is probably town at this point. He continues to narrow his attention in a way that I think fits his town play. I disagree with the individual statements he's making (his hitogoroshi is 100% scum stance is pretty ridiculous, I don't agree that both scum need to have been in on the bus and his interpretation of xRECKONERx being forced to follow his lead on PorkchopExpress doesn't seem to be based on anything I can see in the game are a few examples) but if he was scum I'd expect him to still be throwing more flack out there rather than to be this focused.

As I said, I think his focus of 'both scum bussed Reck' is a clever way for ABR-scum to neatly avoid any comment/analysis of his scumbuddy. (For reference, the people not on the Reck wagon yesterday were Vi, Sando, and SC.) You say you'd expect ABR-scum to throw out more flak but I think 'calling the scum' as two within four players strikes me as a perfect space to play in, (especially because I can easily see him abandoning the idea of 'both scum bussed Reck' when D4 starts without anyone batting an eye.)


Basically I think the most likely scumteam is ABR/SC. I'm not gonna compile a pretty case what with my recent focusing issues (this little fart of a post took me over an hour, and I have another game to post in) but you can all see it pretty well I think. Start with my 806 points, add in what I just said to Zorblag about ABR picking a criterion exonerating his buddy, and sprinke in SC's 'gut scum read' on ABR magically and rapidly turning in to a town read (I especially like his every time I try to get out comment - why would you need to get out from a gut scum read? Oh yeah, because he's your scumbuddy and you need to work with him to mislynch in later days.)

I was a bit hesitant to do this because SC-scum could self-hammer, but then I realized that if he does that will probably get me the leverage to finally get you guys with me on an ABR wagon.

So what the hell -

Vote:SerialClergyman

[L-1!]

I'm still leaning hitogoroshi at this point:

I think RECKONER knew that charlatan was going to get lynched, so he bandwagonned his scumbuddy at the end of Day 1 for town credibility.

I say hitogoroshi scum with Serialclergyman or Zorblag.

Then hitogoroshi defends SC out of the blue:

But Albert, I thought you were 100% certain both of Reck's scumbuddies bussed.

SC did vote RECK for a good part of the day, he just unvoted at the last second.

At this point I am ready to lynch either one:

I can go either Serialclergyman or Hitogoroshi today. Both are good candidates.

Then SC posts this:

Hito, my thoughts on Albert have been pretty well documented.

I was neutral on him through D1. He started irritating me on D2 by claiming how right he was with charlatan despite posting a case against him and voting him. I've tried to get him to answer why he made that post but he hasn't responded IIRC. When I asked people to join me on Reck, and Albert was suddenly on and giving permission to hammer L1, I got very suspicious. I said in my switch to vote him that this might be a day early, meaning perhaps I should wait till Reck flipped to see whether the case on Albert was a good one.

Once I switched I had mediocre support. Your case was based on a lot of stuff that Albert can meta away (the OMGUS, for example). Then Ojanen started psyching up and my suspicions were all turned around. I thought her points about VP were solid and my wagon on Albert was going nowhere. I fully expected Reck to flip town. He didn't.

This put Albert's scumminess out the window, because I don't think he'd bus like that and the fire came back into him. It also shook me and my confidence in my understanding of the game. As far as I'm is concerned, Albert is town. DDD too.

I vote for SC to give both wagons a chance, and let DDD decide which one to go with as I believe that will be telling on his alignment later on:

scummy as hell ^^

Unvote, vote SC

At this point DDD holds the power over both your fates.

Hitogoroshi unvotes SC:

Unvote

.

I'll be explaining that one in a minute, but first, Albert, I asked you a question. Please answer it.

I still don't like SC in this scenario and if you're not scum, then I'd say with almost certainty that he is.

Why?

And this is now my current position:

If Vi or Sando is scum, I will have been completely blindsided and will have to re-evaluate the fundamental workings of my scumdar after this game.

SC's conviction of a town DDD, and hitogoroshi's complete avoidance of him, makes me think DDD is also town.

I think VPB is town. I would be far too impressed with him if he were scum, indeed deserving of the mafia scummie award.

Zorblag, despite my universal mix of suspicion and fear of him, seems to be town in this game.

This leaves the two of you to be scum with RECK.

So what hitogoroshi is saying I did....makes zero sense.

So what conclude: Hitogoroshi is scum with Serialclergyman. I want Serialclergyman to go first. And tomorrow we lynch Hitogoroshi when Serialclergyman turns up scum. If Serialclergyman turns up town then I'm not going to blindly rush in to vote hitogoroshi, as the way he is misrepresenting me.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Your whole case against me boils down to this:

ABR YOU SAID X, BUT THEN YOU SAID Y THAT DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS X.

Well yeah...I changed my mind. I no longer thought that unvoting RECK made SC town. I reconsidered that as you made your "random observation". That's when I started thinking SC was scummy.

Read 1067 again, I think you got sidetracked by the agreements bit.

[Albert B. Rampage]

'One? Sure.' As in 'I am sure we have one of the two scum.' Now tell me, Albert, if you have one of the two scum in {me,SC} and SC flips town, who are you lynching the next day? When you say 'I'm not sure we have both scum, but I'm sure we have at least one' that HAS to mean 'they might not be scum, but at least one is' which means 'if SC flips town, lynch hito the next day.'

That's not misrepresentation. That's taking you at your word.

Actually, I was on a sugar high at that time, and I wanted to come across as "humble" and "distinguished". Needless to say, I looked like a paranoid nutcase instead.

[Albert B. Rampage]

For ABR:

I would like to know (from multiple sources if possible) about how big a deal it is that we

necessarily

lynch one of the two claimed Vanillas today.

Thor isn't going to split open the skies and send thunderbolts to destroy the town if we make another bandwagon. It's simply extremely unwise.

Interesting. We simulposted the same scum list.

Well, yes. It's basically "everyone left after you take out DDD, Sando, and

the two people being wagoned"

.

Vote: VP Baltar

(L-4)

Why would you take out the two people being wagoned? Why??

[Albert B. Rampage]

Now you are claiming that you have new reads. That is not what you said earlier.

You clearly said that you were looking for scum by leaving aside the two bandwagon leaders, DDD and Sando.

In other words, you were looking for scum within the group of myself, Zorblag and VPB. Now it doesn't make sense for a mason to completely dismiss 4 players from being scum when he in fact only has one partner left. So with that out of the picture Vi, I ask you, why would you give all these players absolution? Do you want the two scum to be among myself, VPB and Zorblag?

I have perfectly explained why and when I turned around with Serialclergyman. I expect at least the same from you with SC, VPB and hitogoroshi.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I am extremely disappointed by you Vi, and quite frankly, I have neither the patience nor the inclination to lecture you about the intricate minutia of a hardly barefaced fraudulence begging on its knees and tears for our votes. Word of advice: obtuseness and obduracy make ill partners, especially when induced by garrulous histrionics employed as last-resort desperation tactics. You know what, I'll spare you the castigation. I want SC inexorably removed and forgotten about by the end of the week.

[Albert B. Rampage]

We are definitely lynching SC today, whether by deadeline or majority.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Anyway, at some point are you going to vote SC so we can get on lynch scum?

Couldn't have said it better...Vi is just delaying the inevitable.

[Albert B. Rampage]

What's the mechanism(bolded)?

[Albert B. Rampage]

hahaha I'm laughing right now!!

[Albert B. Rampage]

I don't think anyone but SerialClergyman would NK Ojanen. Apparently, and according to him, she knows how to read him as scum.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I did not.

[Albert B. Rampage]

If SC is going to be the lynch today, I want to hear some actual, serious speculation about what it would mean if he flips town,

before any lynch happens

.

Much like the Third Reich in 1945, you are in no position to be making demands.

[Albert B. Rampage]

TL;DR

Vote SC.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Zorblag, le coup de grace por favor?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Don't care. Ignore and lynch away.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You have as much time as you will have until Zorblag hammers.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You have far outlived your usefulness my friend.

-successfully derailed PCE/REC day 1
-lynched charlatan
-NK'd Amished
-tried to derail REC day 2
-NK'd Ojanen

Every one of these actions link back to you as scum.

In addition, your constant flip-flops around me, trying to decide how to get on various players good sides, poor distancing job, etc.

You are scum with DDD, aren't you? Don't lie.

[Albert B. Rampage]

By whom Vi

[Albert B. Rampage]

Why did you fail so bad?

[Albert B. Rampage]

If SC flips scum I'm looking at DDD and hitogoroshi tomorrow.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm looking at 80% chance of clergyman turning scum here. Place your bets, gentlemen.

[Albert B. Rampage]

For strategy.

[Albert B. Rampage]

If I could boil down the reason for which I think you're scum to only one thing clergyman, it would be that you're a clever player that has been playing dumb in this game.

Amished and Ojanen were very tactical kills. They are exactly who I would have killed, and in that order, if I were scum. Your criticizing my case is laughable because I didn't post a case against charlie, I just reiterated

your

case. Your floundering around hitogoroshi, me and reck have not gone unnoticed. List goes on and on.

You're not me, you don't play like me, but you do understand the same fundamentals as I do. This is what makes you a good player. I haven't seen that in you here, but the scum operating behind the scenes are making very smart moves, I can tell you that.

[Albert B. Rampage]

This discussion is to let you understand the why and how, because I have respect for you, Mr. G.

I already have you hammered.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Sorry SC. If it is any justice to you, you deserved to die as much as charlatan did.

No-Lynch

[Albert B. Rampage]

Vote No-Lynch

[Albert B. Rampage]

Fuck.

Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck FUCK.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Sometimes you're just very close to being right, and then you change your mind and you lose and die. That's what happened to me in this game.

DDD was a pain in the ass for me the entire game, I didn't expect him to play like that at all. I initially had a town read of Serial, but he was so bad this time, I couldn't believe it. The main reason I voted him was NOT because I was that confident in myself, but because I was confident in Ojanen and Sando who both thought SC was scum, and they are supposed to know him very well. Bleh on Ojanen and Sando...

This town just played horrible, and me included. I didn't get as much into it as I had foreseen. And when I was right, I second guessed myself and got right back to square one.

Some of my mistakes:

1) I couldn't believe everyone was just giving Vi a free pass, and I went along knowing if he didn't get NK'd he was scum. Exactly the same thing with Zorblag actually, but then I changed my mind when I couldn't hold back my suspicions anymore.

2) Trusting my mason partners too much

3) Not spearheading the scumhunt as I should

The following quote will serve as a life lesson for me:

"Your playing small does not serve the world.
There is nothing enlightened about shrinking
so that other people won't feel insecure around you.

And, as we let our own light shine, we consciously give
other people permission to do the same.
As we are liberated from our fear,
our presence automatically liberates others."

So many times in this game I could have made the difference but decided that the others knew what they were doing. Well fuck me, they didn't.

[Albert B. Rampage]

That said, I like all of you a lot. I now know how DDD plays now so I won't have any surprises the next time I see him, and that's always a plus.

I want to play another game with you guyzz now...

Oh but the modding in this game sucked. Deadlines should be shorter.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yeah...in the other F&Es, I was also a mason, and I took down 2 scum before kicking the bucket. So in this game, I thought, "Hey I'm just going to do the opposite of what I did in the other games to test if I was playing it right before". Epic fail.

I was trying to keep the mason team together as my first priority instead of scumhunting.

How did you guys decide to NK Ojanen?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I was trying to keep the mason team together as my first priority instead of scumhunting.

Huge mistake btw ^^^

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm pissed I lost this game. I regret doing so much of the things I did.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Mason QT was extremely fail. Ojanen and Sando were gone most of the time. I'm shocked at how much the scum were plotting against us.

[Albert B. Rampage]

@hito

Never say "Lynch me before you lynch Serialclergyman". That's not remotely pro-town, and you can never predict how people's opinion change. Just because you're town doesn't mean he isn't scum, even if you think you know he isn't, it won't be the way other people see it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It's not town-motivated either. That's beside the point, which is that it isn't a pro-town move, as in, it is against the interest of the town to do so.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Whether it makes a solid difference or not is irrelevant. It's like quicklynching Day 1 and then claiming it was a great move because it made a big difference in winning.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It's not town-motivated either. That's beside the point, which is that it isn't a pro-town move, as in, it is against the interest of the town to do so.

Why would scum say "lynch me first" unless they believed the other person was Town (and were not forced to say that)?

Why does scum do anything? To look like town, of course. Look at it practically and not in terms of WIFOM (scum wouldn't do that). It helps the scum if anything because you're giving yourself up.

@Albert B. Rampage, what did you expect the scum to do if not plot?

I am surprised at how many posts you made in the QT. We barely got to sneak in 2 or 3 one-liners in the mason QT.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It did not have positive consequences...where did you get that idea?

[Albert B. Rampage]