Mini 953: Star Control: Alliance Initiative (Over)

[Kast]

/confirm

[Kast]

Hi all,
-Could everyone share how much they know of the source game? I know a lot of us played the previous game and already have shared that, but it doesn't hurt to share again.
--I downloaded and started playing after the last game, but never actually spent much time playing. I read the wiki and a lot of game guide/resources for flavor cues.

-Given the prevalence of ship-millers and limited/unreliable investigations in the previous game, I am wary of more of the same in this one.

[Kast]

@Plum-
The presence of those roles/mechanics in the previous game was greater than what I would have expected. It is plausible that Spyrex would incorporate similar mechanisms into this sequel game. I have a high enough opinion of my expectations that I think it worthwhile to point this out.

OR

You can suspect I'm setting up for a ship-miller claim for myself or a suspected scumbuddy.

OR

You can suspect I'm setting up explanations for future deviations from my normal game play.

Take your pick or come up with your own.

[Kast]

vote: Kast

for thinking I was scum last time.

If it looks like scum, sounds like scum, acts like scum...

[Kast]

Extremely.

Potshots at Plum will be met with extreme prejudice.

-Is this serious?
--If so, is there a reason for openly sharing it right now?

[Kast]

@Plum/Zito-
Does that go both ways; does Plum know Zito's affiliation?

[Kast]

Direct question in response to a claim is not rolefishing.

Are you still bitter about the last game?

[Kast]

@Zito-
Yes, that's what I was referring to.

[Kast]

@Porkens-
-Previous SC game in which I called out your rolefishing and you responded by calling me pointing out of your rolefishing also rolefishing.

@Merkabah-
-Are these posts from different heads in the hydra? If not, how do you discriminate between your request for clarification any mine.

@PZ: How confident are you?

I agree with Porkens that Kast's prodding looks like rolefishing and I don't like it.

-Soft claims are rarely beneficial to town. Scum are almost always better setup to tell whether a joke is actually a soft-claim or not.

In our case, Zito posted three times in a row:
-IF he isn't scum, THEN scum certainly would have realized he was soft claiming whereas town was still left uncertain. Confirming that information helps town and does not give scum much benefit.
-IF Zito is scum and was trying to get away with a soft claim to buddy/buy cred with Plum, THEN pressing for a confirmation limits his future claims.

-I don't see why Zito felt the need to share that. Plum was not under suspicion or apparent danger. If anything, Zito's claim, makes Plum a better scum target than she would be.
--The follow up question flows from Zito's stated reason and from an unknown tying himself to another unknown.

@Gammagooey-
-There are very few people who I have played with and not enjoyed the experience; none are in this game.
-Random voting works for some people, doesn't work for others. It's rare that it helps find scum who wouldn't be found anyway even without the random voting.
--Generalizing it as affiliation indicative is a mistake.
-If you mean that you have a serious reason for voting Dry Fit, you're the one who should provide that to town; not the other way around. I do not expect you to have a good/serious reason.

[Kast]

@Merkabah-
Scum (more specifically mafia) have more information than town. Town won't know if either Zito OR Plum is town/other. If Zito is mafia, they know exactly what he is doing/saying. If Plum is mafia, they know Zito has something wrong with him. If neither is mafia, then the mafia "know" with greater confidence that Zito is telling the truth about Plum.

Less likely but additionally, mafia could have a role that suggests how Zito could know Plum's affiliation.

@Gammah-
Promoting discussion is good. Promoting discussion about pure theory is not always good. It sometimes makes it easier for scum to actively lurk.

In our case, you may have helped RBT with some active lurking. I want to hear a reason behind RBT's vote. I've played as scum with RBT (MKMII) and active lurking as a strategy was heavily abused. I actually thought we'd played more than once, but I can't find any other games.

[Kast]

@RBT-
You're not posting any substance and your vote looks aimed at appeasement.

Vote: RBT

[Kast]

@Zito-
Are you requesting one?

[Kast]

Contrary to popular belief, I don't post them spontaneously. If I feel like a response needs to be long, I will post a long response. At the moment, I haven't seen anything that required a longer treatment than what I have posted so far.

[Kast]

@RBT-
-Why did you vote for Gamma in the first place?
-Even if you somehow know that Gamma is not a threat to town, how does that implicate Morph as scum?
-Your claim is eerily reminiscent of this one. I acknowledge that you were quite good at guessing roles from flavor hints; but your guesses were also backed up by knowledge that those players were really town/telling the truth.

[Kast]

@RBT-
You should consider claiming; especially given the claimed hammer-related roles.

@Gammagooey/Porkens-
-Are either of your claimed abilities demonstrable?
--ie. If you hammer, will the mod make a special announcement and/or will you be able to prove that your power-up/bonus/whatever actually happened?

[Kast]

@RBT-
Role PMs should include a pilot section and a ship section.

I'd like you to claim more completely, flavor included, and I want to hear Zito's evaluation of how well that fits with SC. Any other players who are very familiar with the source are encouraged to chime in as well.

[Kast]

Btw- we had a ton of discussion in the previous game regarding pilots/ships, jettisoning/rescuing, and other mechanics. That's been mostly absent from this one. I'm assuming most of the players who are apt to ask those questions played in the previous game and understand those things fairly well now, but for those who didn't play, it's probably worthwhile to browse the rules again and ask any questions you have.

One thing to note, when we lynch, we are lynching the pilot.

[Kast]

I say we get the rest of his claim out of him then let him swing.

-This sounds like you want a claim for the sake of getting a claim but have already determined to lynch him regardless.
--If that is correct, then you're adopting an anti-town position regarding RBT. Claim is requested to improve analysis/evaluation of RBT as a lynch candidate. If the claim is credible and/or would be seriously bad for town to lynch, RBT may no longer be the best lynch candidate.

[Kast]

@Merk-
-In the linked game, RBT and I were part of the scumteam. One of RBT's strategies was to lurk heavily. Another was to guess the role/name of town players and use the guess to gain town-cred/buddy with that townie. It's the same pattern that RBT is using here; initially lurk, but when called on it try to buddy with and guess the role of another player.

--A corollary to this is that if RBT flips scum, meta argues that gamma is on a different team.

[Kast]

@Zito-
Was he town or scum in that game?

[Kast]

Botched false-claim ftw?

I don't think we're getting anything else from RBT.

My vote stands and it would be cool/fun to see the flip sometime today.

Given that there was a Mycon Podship which was NOT vanilla in the previous game, I seriously doubt there would be a vanilla one in this game.

[Kast]

@Porkens-
Not sure what to make of this, but you seem kinda...passive?...subdued?...more than I would normally expect.

[Kast]

Having multiple people claiming each other as town is really weird.

I hope you people all know what you're talking about and aren't falling for setup traps.

@Bouncy-
Thanks for participating in D1...wait nvm...

[Kast]

Checking in.

To be clear on what's been claimed:
-Gamma does not know why he is floating in space (ie. he did not jettison).
--Gamma's ship was the Thraddash Torch.
-Gamma's hammer activated a (pilot) ability which makes the ship he is on operate at lower energy cost.
-Gamma knows that Cruelty targeted Porkens last night.

-Plum claimed to give Porkens energy last night.
-Porkens claims to (still) have no energy.

Thoughts:
-Why is Cruelty targeting Porkens a reason for lynching him?
--Cruelty should post whether he did in fact target Porkens or not. His discretion on claiming further regarding that.
-I was surprised to find my batteries were drained last night.

[Kast]

EBWOP-
It is up to (h)is discretion on claiming further regarding that.

[Kast]

@Merkabah-
Not sure what you mean. I wasn't active on the weekend and never am. I was active throughout D1, and AFAIK D2 is just barely getting underway.

@Cruelty-
Problem with your claim.

1.) Battery Manipulation Effects

2.) Player Location Manipulation Effects (Jettison / Retrieve / Etc)
3.) All other effects as per NaR

ALL battery manipulation happens PRIOR TO anything else. Your plasmoids don't sound anything like battery manipulation and would fall under category 3. This is a hard rule that I have asked for mod confirmation from D1.

If you are town, you better ask Spyrex why this happened, he was extremely and explicitly clear on this issue when I asked him by PM. If he messed up, he really needs to say something to that effect.

Vote: Cruelty

[Kast]

To be a bit more clear, I asked about battery manipulation and roleblocking/redirecting. Roleblocking and redirecting happen as part of 3 unless they are also battery manipulation OR player location (ie. teleporting).

The plasmoid sounds like either a protection or a redirection, but doesn't do either player re-location or battery manipulation.

[Kast]

Unvote

Ok, no hard feelings Cruelty.

@Porkens-
FYI, default each player should get one pilot action and one ship action. So if your hammer ability is a pilot action and you plan to use your new energy for a ship action, you won't be able to rescue. Rescue is a ship action.

@Zito-
It may not be the best idea for a SINGLE player to be decided as Gamma's rescuer. If scum know Gamma is going to your ship, then they can easily try to kill you and get both of you with one shot. Anyone else who trusts Gamma should consider attempting to rescue him (assuming you don't have a zoo of wild animals on board your ship).

[Kast]

@Corollary to thought to Zito-
Assuming someone did jump ship, you probably don't want to reveal that anytime soon since it makes for an easy scum target.

[Kast]

@Bouncy-
-Why are you trying to guess how Gamma's investigative power works?
--
-Cruelty confirmed that Gamma has an investigative power. That's good enough for me and there's almost no reason town would need to know more than that.

@Rescuing Gamma-
I had all my energy drained so I don't mind rescuing (but it also won't help me unless someone can transfer energy to me). I did not mean for everyone to claim if they can rescue or not, just wanted people to be aware and also consider rescuing Gamma.

[Kast]

Left out some points to Bouncy-
-Plum's energy transfer appears to be mod confirmed.
-Cruelty's redirection ability appears to be mod confirmed to some degree (we know there is some kind of redirection, but don't know if there is anything else or the full scope of it).
-We know Gamma has some investigative ability that let him know Cruelty targeted Porkens.
-We don't know anything confirmed about Porkens abilities.

[Kast]

Yeah bouncy, it was 0 energy after I got my passive ability from hammering.

In the previous game we had different forms of roleblocking. Explaining how your abilities work unnecessarily could help scum determine how best to deal with them (especially bad for investigators).

[Kast]

Ani, I need to know who you shot at. Stop dodging the question.

Shot what? I don't have an ability to kill.

I said that because I forgot that Players stay in Space for a while.

I'm pretty sure Zito was referring to this:

Well, that was weird. I thought that someone would die. Apparently not, and their ship acts as a shield.

Please do explain the statement more clearly.

[Kast]

I have a null read on dry-fit. He was lurky in the first game and we lynched him after it slipped that he had an unbelievably overpowered scum ship.

I'd rather not repeat that mistake.

[Kast]

@Gamma-
Trying to figure that out.

I don't like the AM/Bouncy exchange, but then AM usually reads scummy to me.

Bouncy's questioning reads as honest inquiry, but I haven't played with him before and it could be fishing.

I had a weak gut scum read on Merk, but his posts re: Cruelty felt really genuine.

I'd probably be most okay with Bouncy atm, but it isn't a strong read.

[Kast]

It sounds a bit fake. AM's initial post is out of place for D2.

[Kast]

I'm really uncertain why people are thinking cruelty looks like town for targeting Porkens.

The mod error indicates that Cruelty's night action was actually redirection OR something that can stop at least some other actions from reaching the target. It likely isn't intended solely or even primarily for diverting energy (or else he would simply have errata'd that Cruelty's ability precedes the timing in the rules). I'd rather not lynch a claimed doctor of sorts without a strong reason.

[Kast]

@AM-
-It sounds like you are saying Gamma is in space as a result of a night kill attempt. You think someone (mafia?) tried to kill Gamma and instead of dying, Gamma's ship was destroyed. Is this correct?
--Right now everyone who is on a ship is behind a "barrier" that protects them from dying in space. This is not the same as a "barrier" protecting them from kill attempts.

[Kast]

@AM-
-What makes you think that it is the result of a night kill?

-What do you think about Gamma?

[Kast]

Wait, so the scum DID try to kill me? And cruelty saved me?

Possible. There are tons of other possibilities though.

@Dry-fit-

you specifically stated you find ani more scummy than i, therefore if you ignore the night action thing, you should be voting that way.

-This is true.
--Are you ignoring the night action thing? If not, what do you think about Cruelty's night action.
--Do you currently find AM or Cruelty more scummy?

@Gamma/Porkens-
I don't find it plausible that the mod would put in two identical town investigation+ roles.

[Kast]

Mini theme with a duplicate "cop+extra abilities" role doesn't work so well for game balance.

It also seems kinda lame and unlikely that Spyrex would put in an exact copy of any role.

It isn't impossible, but I would be extremely surprised if that were the case.

[Kast]

cop = shorthand for investigation role

[Kast]

Me and Gamma had the same ship, but I'm *thinking* our pilot abilities are different. No need to compare all out in the open for now, though.

This is what I'd expect as well.

[Kast]

Probably useless game setup speculation: We have race-pairs, but sometimes one of the pair is scum. OR, the fakeclaims are set up this way.

This is one of those statements that can be very dangerous for town without a disclaimer. If anyone feels they need to comment on this, please be careful not to reveal more information than necessary.

@All-
Today's probably my last full day, I'll be around a little bit tomorrow morning, then out of contact for 10 days.

I'd appreciate if you guys wait on lynching anyone until Sunday. That would give a 48hour night and D3 will end on Tuesday May 4th. If I am still alive, I should be able to at least catch up on May 3rd with an extra day if I need to ask any questions.

Thanks.

[Kast]

Hi all. Sort of scanned through.

-I am Lord 13.
-My original ship was an Ur-Quan Dreadnought.
--It has a passive one shot protection against conventional weapons.
--It has two Racial Active abilities, one which drains energy and one which destroys a ship and jettisons the pilot(s).
--It started with 3/5 energy, but should currently have 0 energy.
---I also got a note that Spyrex misunderstood my N1 action. N1 I attempted to drain Gamma's batteries. I had referred to this as eating Gamma's ship batteries, but Spyrex read this as destroying Gamma's ship instead. The ship destroying power costs more energy than the battery draining power and this is why I thought that someone drained my batteries. Since I have a battery draining power, this was why I explicitly stated that I was very surprised to have my own batteries drained.

In either event, both abilities (draining and destroying) are Racial Active abilities, so assuming I didn't start with 0 energy in that ship, it should nigh confirm that I am Ur-Quan.

It's also demonstrable if someone gives energy to my dreadnought and I use my current ship to swap back.

-I confirm I am currently on an Umgah Drone and not on my original ship.
--Night PM indicates this happened on N2.
--The new ship has FULL batteries, a roleblock, a teleporter, and a hyperwave caster (RA).
---Either someone charged AM's batteries OR something else is involved in the ship swap. This is ALSO easily demonstrable.

-From what info is available, it looks like there is an extremely powerful town. I can see a weak 3-man mafia plus 1-3 Third Party (potentially independent; potentially linked if 2+; potentially able to win with town/mafia/both).

I'm not sure what CF Riot is thinking; he apparently knows that I am Ur-Quan and if he really was talking with AM, then he should know that I will be able to prove that. My best guess at the moment is that he was hoping I would still be V/LA and could convince town to lynch me before I can say anything. This suggests lyncher independent.

[Kast]

I sent random commands before going on vacation. Only lame people lie about V/LA.

And Spyrex really did mess up my N1 action; I wanted to eat your batteries but he thought eat => kill. I thought it was clear since I had previously typed up a couple paragraphs explaining why I wanted to eat you.