Lay of Leithian Mafia: Game Over!

[xvart]

Greetings. Happy hunting.

Claimed scum?

Vote: Elscouta

. Die.

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart also picked up Elscouta scum - as quickly as I have. Except that I'm psychic and he's not, which makes him the other buddy.

True, I am not psychic; but I have always considered myself to have above average intelligence; regardless, it didn't take a degree in advanced cryptography to decipher this encrypted message:

Hi, scumbuddy!

But I applaud your efforts to make something out of nothing.

FoS: Drippereth

xvart.

[xvart]

Lets try and take this in a different direction. When you consider the fact that not random voting almost always without fail draws suspicion on the perpetrator, why in the world would scum not random vote?

In other news: Xvart is my first scum suspect.

I didn't random vote; therefore, by your logic, I am not scum. Thanks for clearing me of your own suspicions.

xvart.

[xvart]

It certainly warrants further scrutiny, a la the vote.

xvart.

[xvart]

CyberBob/xvart: Why do you think scum are (not) more likely to joke about being scum?

I don't see any thing in claiming scum/scumbuddies to be inherently town. I don't have any statistics to back anything up, but the WIFOM makes me sick just thinking about it.

xvart: How exactly is just throwing a vote out applying useful scrutiny?

Well for starters it shows I'm serious about it; and second, there seems to be a leading bandwagon going so I think that is useful scrutiny.

xvart.

[xvart]

There's nothing in signing your name at the bottom of each post that's inherently town, either - that's obviously not sufficient to suspect someone. It has to be, you know, actually suspicious. Do you find it suspicious?

Nice analogy. So you are saying that claiming scumbuddies has as much inherent significance as saying your name to each post? You are suggesting that claiming scumbuddies is as anti-town/scummy as signing each post? Are you saying that people should be just as suspicious of me for signing each post as I am for suspecting someone that claims scumbuddies?!

Someone might be scum, or they might be town. If that's sickening, Mafia must be very tough on you, no? What exactly do you dislike so much?

Nice oversimplification of what I said. I'm not disputing or complaining about the fact that there might be scum or there might be town in this game. I'm talking about someone saying "I'm scumbuddies" in the first post, and then being defended by "He can't possibly be scum, why would scum do something stupid like that."

I didn't ask why you voted him. I asked why you voted him and did nothing further. You must have a very strange definition of scrutiny if it's met by starting a bandwagon on someone and then just sitting there. How far do towards lynch do you think the bandwagon should go before you deign to ask him a question or something? You know - scrutinise him.

My apologies. Perhaps I should have said pressure instead of scrutiny. I wasn't going to come out guns a'blazing for something, because as you've gone out of your way to point out, there may possibly be nothing to it. A pressure vote is fine with me and I didn't feel I needed to start an interrogation since it would probably illicit a response in and of itself. More votes started coming in and that was fine with me; in fact I was glad to see it since Elscouta hadn't responded yet.

The response seems legitimate to me, exponentially moreso than "I was just messing around!"

Hmm. "scumbuddy" referred to the fact that Cobalt and me were scumbuddies in Precision Mafia that just finished.

That was easy enough.

Unvote

Vote: Drippereth

I would also just like to note that xvart never did ask why I had voted him, which I find very weird. Did he not need to be told why he was scummy?

Maybe I just didn't care why you think I'm scummy? I didn't realize you would need to be prompted to further explain your page two case on me. I was also told during my first game here that I shouldn't respond to everything as it makes me look scummy. So I chose not to respond since I really don't care that someone simply states "xvart is my first suspect with nothing else other than some stuff about people who don't random vote can't be scum." Whoopty Doo.

Next time I'll be more prepared to help prompt you and assist in building a case against myself.

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart: Why the vote on Drippereth?

I upgraded my FoS to a vote since he was essentially the one that planted the seed about how voting for a claimed scum is scummy.

xvart: I think tries to hard to make something that was said in jest into something serious. He talks about it as WIFOM in regards to whether scum would blantantly out themselves. Seriously people are tht dumb as scum?

Farside:

So now, in your opinion, Escoulta is guaranteed town the rest of the game since nobody would "be that dumb as scum"? If Escoulta later acts scummy on other merits you would dismiss it because he couldn't possibly be scum? What if we do lynch Escoulta and he flips scum?

I think the scummiest thing to happen so far is xvart's insistence that his vote on Els was "non-RVS" after being challenged on the issue. It looks like he felt compelled to justify himself rather than reflect on his position.

It wasn't a random vote. I never said it was. So I should have not said anything and just sat at my computer, and reflected on how I should have cast a stupid vote for someone for some stupid reason instead of voting for a claimed scum? I don't know what your win condition is, but I'm here to scumhunt so I'll post my justifications

and

reflect at the same time.

Because they know that town is going to realize that no scum in their right mind would do it, so the player who does it must be town. So you do it for town points.

Kmd4390:

Same questions as I posed to farside: in your opinion, Escoulta is guaranteed town the rest of the game since that "no scum in their right mind would do it"? If Escoulta later acts scummy on other merits you would dismiss it because he couldn't possibly be scum? What if we do lynch Escoulta and he flips scum?

I'm glad I now know how to get a foolproof membership card to the town club house for future games.

FoS: Farside and Kmd

for giving someone an unrestricted free pass to towndom on page five.

xvart.

[xvart]

In your opinion people are scum automatically for saying hey scum buddy?

No, but I think people who are town are

significantly

less likely to say something like that.

If he acts scummy later then I will go on that. Not a hey scum buddy comment.

With all things being equal, if the top two scummy people (one of them being Elscouta in this example) are of equal scumminess this would have no effect on your vote?

I'm glad I now know how to get a foolproof membership card to the town club house for future games.

Someone knows how to misrepresnt the point completely, be snarky and get OMGUS all in one. Awesome you make me even more happy with my vote.

Perhaps I was a little hasty in generalizing you and Kmd. I suppose I did slightly misrepresent you as your

statement

rhetorical question was marginally softer than Kmd's; however, when someone asks "are people that dumb as scum" (post 88) I read that rhetorical question as you believe that it would be rare to find scum to do such a thing. If that was not your intention then I apologize; rhetorical questions are usually pretty easy to read the intention but I suppose I could be wrong in this instance.

Xvart is using bad logic and wrong analogies in most of his posts, but i'm not sure if it is town bad logic or scum one.

Examples?

xvart.

[xvart]

- @Ooba: Nice way to enter in the game by voting for the largest wagon. Would you care to say a bit more?

I entered the game - looked at the most recent post with a vote count - saw who had the most votes - looked at number of votes to lynch and realized he could use some more pressure ..

You realized that I needed more pressure based on the soundness of the arguments presented (which you have not read) or the lack of appropriate responses on my part (which you wouldn't know)? How do you justify your realization?

What is going to happen if you think that the wagon on me is baseless? How will you justify your vote as being anything other than opportunistic? Really though, how can you justify your vote being anything other than opportunistic even if you do agree with the wagon?

xvart.

[xvart]

I don't see Elscouta as scummy right now so the point in this is what?

I was just a simple hypothetical question, trying to gauge if someone claiming scum on the first day has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on your "scum scope."

I'm quiet annoying that way.

I don't find you annoying at all.

xvart.

[xvart]

So apparently you suspect him because he did something that isn't inherently town. That's a crappy reason to suspect someone, because some things that aren't inherently town (like signing your name) are obviously not suspicious. I asked you to explain to me why you found it suspicious, and you haven't done that. Please do so.

I believe that someone that is town aligned would be significantly less likely to claim scumbuddies. If someone is significantly less likely to be town, then that person is significantly more likely to have a different win condition than the town. At the time of my vote, I did not consider that the person in question had just finished a game with the person he claimed as a scumbuddy in which they actually were scumbuddies.

xvart: Why do you think scum are more likely to joke about being scum?

It is not that I think scum are necessarily more likely to joke about being scum; but I believe that town is less likely than scum to joke about it. Additionally, scum couldn’t be that stupid to do something like that, so it could give the perfect cover for a scum to slide through like that.

No. You can tell I'm not saying this because I didn't say it

I was not the only one confused by your analogy; but I suppose I just incorrectly equated “not inherently town” to “scummy.”

Please name the people who have said that he can't possibly be scum.

Kmd and debatably, Farside

Obviously I have not done a good job at conveying my view and painted a big target on my back. To sum it all up:

1. I felt that Elscouta was more likely scum because of his scum buddy comment.
   
2. I voted because of that.
   Others agreed with my view enough to also cast a vote (or at least to start a mini-bandwagon).
   
3. It came out that the comment was in reference to
   another
   game where the claim was actually true, so my original opinion was no longer valid.
   
4. Knowing my alignment and the target I put on myself I felt/feel that there are probably some scum on my wagon right now, so I started pushing back.

I’ll continue to answer questions that anyone has, but I’m going to start looking into some of the other discussion topics instead of continuing along this front sense I'm getting nowhere and creating a big distraction.

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart and Sens seems to have descended into LURKERLAND.

I am rereading and will be posting later tonight.

xvart.

[xvart]

I would be interested in running up another wagon and see if Budja jumps on it, too.

unvote, vote:CyberBob

For being rude among other things

You guys don't find cyberbob scummy at all?

You're surprised that no one joins in your suspicion of someone being scum based on how rude he is? What are the "among other things?" You felt it was only important to mention the rudeness but not the other things?

FoS: Jack

By Elmo's logic, cops should claim D1, because protective roles will be able to find them, anyway.

Yuck.

Cobalt isn't particularly playing different from the game I saw him as town in.

Was there a time when Cobalt started posting something other votes? Did he come out of his shell later in the game? Was he helpful and achieving the town win condition?

I think we are well past that point in time where voting/unvoting with no justification is sufficient.

Unvote
Vote: Cobalt

xvart.

[xvart]

Still curious about what those two have to do with CyberBob.

I wanted to see what they thought about him, since they were voting me after my talk+vote. i.e., had they been reading before voting or were they just jumping on?

Are you talking about CKD and SPS since they did not provide info behind their vote?

xvart.

[xvart]

I would be interested in running up another wagon and see if Budja jumps on it, too.

You can't help but misrep, can you.

How did I misrepresent you? I didn't even make a direct comment about you or say Budja does this or Budja does that. A little defensive?

Wagoning may not be a scumtell, but pushing a pointless wagon is anti-town, and wagoning instead of scumhunting is anti-town. :X

To which wagon(s) are you referring?

Unvote
Vote: xofelf

I feel that xofelf is only focusing on things that are irrelevant to the game and a singular meta-read that may or not be beneficial. And claiming you could say things to get modkilled/replaced isn't exactly in the town's best interest.

xvart.

[xvart]

It is not that I think scum are necessarily more likely to joke about being scum; but I believe that town is less likely than scum to joke about it. Additionally, scum couldn’t be that stupid to do something like that, so it could give the perfect cover for a scum to slide through like that.

I still have yet to receive anything resembling an explanation for this. Why are town less likely to do that, and why do scum want "cover" to "slide through" by doing something that (apparently) does nothing but attract attention?

Sorry if I missed your question somewhere. Town would be less likely to do it because it draws unnecessary scrutiny for something that gains no benefit; and, despite that scrutiny it can easily be brushed off by saying "no scum would do that." Basically I believe it is an avoidable but easily dismissed scrutiny that would have more benefit to scum if they passed.

Because they know that town is going to realize that no scum in their right mind would do it, so the player who does it must be town. So you do it for town points.

Rereading I just realized that this comment I attacked Kmd was not in reference to the scum buddies but random voting instead, so it is now obvious to me that I did drastically misquote Kmd. My apologies and a full retraction.

xvart.

[xvart]

I've seen elf actively lurk. Typically it's scum motivated. This doesn't feel like her normal scum play.

Farside - Are you saying that typically her active lurking is scum motivated or active lurking is scum motivated in general. How does her play in this game compare to games where she actively lurked?

Or we can just lynch both of em and be done with it.

Starbuck - do you think at least one of them is scum?

faking daykills is supertown

Generally speaking, yes; but I have seen otherwise.

I checked one of xvart's other games (over) but got bored partway through reading his ISO which I'll take as a sign that I should be paying attention to someone else.

Sorry I'm so boring...

xvart.

[xvart]

I would be interested in running up another wagon and see if Budja jumps on it, too.

interesting statement...this REALLY is sticking out to me. At this point post (289) Jack has 4 votes. Cobalt just has 2. You express suspicion on Jack in the post with an FOS, but you vote cobalt instead? So why not vote Jack to "run up a wagon" and see if Bud jumps on it?

It was more of an observational post, rather than a real "experiment;" regardless, at the time of my post, Budja had already set himself up to jump on the two next largest wagons (Jack and Cyberbob) either by direct statement or FoS's so running up Jack's wagon wouldn't really do anything for my suggested "experiment."

xvart.

[xvart]

You were basically full of it? i.e. you were clearly accusing him of being wagon happy, but we he called you on that claim you tried to dodge it and accuse him of being defensive.

I don't really see what you are trying to say. He didn't respond to my wagon statement other than saying I was misrepresenting him. Furthermore, he didn't "call me" on the content of my post, which you seem to think he did. My response to him was about him claiming I was misrepresenting him, not the wagon comment or him being "wagon happy." I didn't misrepresent him at all. He should know himself that he has been very vocal about liking several wagons, FoS's on all the leading wagons, the temptations of switching wagons, etc. How is me saying I was curious to run up another wagon and see if he was going to get on it misrepresenting anything? Do you think his post in response to mine is a sufficient rebuttal? He didn't refute anything other than saying his vote hasn't moved in ages.

xvart.

[xvart]

You evasively claimed that you "hadn't made a direct comment" about him or said "Budja does this or that". But by your own admission you were accusing him of jumping on wagons scummily and for no reason (don't try and claim that you were just matter of factly pointing it out, this is mafia).

I didn't evasively do anything; and of course there was motivation behind the original statement. I left it where I did about not making a direct comment because I was trying to get Budja to explain exactly how I was misrepresenting him. I didn't in direct content because I didn't make any literal statements about him. The only thing that could even remotely be misconstrued as misrepresentation would be the assumption of wagon hopping, which I was hoping to get him to respond to. He was very unclear and made no support on how I misrepresented him, and given my poor track record of misrepresenting people so far this game I wanted it to be clear that I wasn't doing it again. I believe he was trying to undercut me by throwing out the buzz word "misrep" and "xvart" in the same sentence since those two words have become synonymous in the early day one game.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm pretty disappointed at the xolelf wagon fizzling. Can someone give me the sound bite edition of the SPS case?

xvart.

[xvart]

We are 26 pages in and I don't see a solid case built on anyone. I am ashamed of the lack there of scum hunting. Lets go peoples.

Sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black?

Okay I liked the Xvart train better than the xtalt

Is that because the last time you posted the wagon was on me?

FeFiFoFum: why do you think xvart is scum? Details, details!

See above...

xvart.

[xvart]

I'll be back tonight and post then.

xvart.

[xvart]

My apologies for the my day two absence. I told Plum via pm that I would have limited access while out of town, and I ended up having less time than I thought. I only had a chance to post briefly in one of my other games. I typed out a post and previewed it, then made a change, then previewed it again and the thread was locked.

My thought yesterday was that FFFF was a lyncher trying to pull a fast one. I can't really seem to make any sense of it otherwise, especially considering he had no shame in outting power roles and even later the potential to out the Simaril.

Farside - were you given any information as to how you died?
Budja - how do you feel about Drippereth's being killed last night?

I'm thinking maybe we should destroy Escouta instead of FFFF. I'm also thinking we should revive either Drippereth or J-Scope.

xvart.

[xvart]

While it's true that xvart was apparently gone for the past several days, he nonetheless posted decent content in his other games during this game's D2. He chose those games over this one for some reason. His decision reflects poorly on his alignment in this game IMO. I'd encourage players to review the posts with msutils, because I think their content is not irrelevant to this analysis.

After announcing in all my games (those not locked) that I would have limited access I only posted twice in the newbie game I am in before saying in all the games (those not locked) I would be back and post that night. All the other posts you are referring to came after I got back, and I didn't get to this one before it got locked (as I explained above). How does my decision on which game to start posting in first after coming back reflect on my alignment in this game?

xvart.

[xvart]

Hmm, he basically skipped yesterday. Why did you do that Xvart?

I was visiting my sister in Dallas and thought I would have more time to read and post while there but I did not. I only got to post in the newbie game twice.

xvart.

[xvart]

It's based on introspection. I personally have a habit of (barring special circumstances) avoiding my scumgames relative to my towngames. (I also ignore VT games relatively more, but your posts imply that that does not parsimoniously explain your behavior IMO.)

So you think it is appropriate to build cases on others based on how you prioritize games?

I'm not disputing that you posted relatively few times, or that your lack of access was legitimate. I'm pointing out that your time management choices reflect poorly on your alignment.

I fail to see how unless you are in my mind or know my alignment in every single one of the games I'm playing. You are making a lot of assumptions including:

1. I prioritize my posting in games based on my role and/or my alignment exactly how you do;
   
2. You know my alignment in all my other games.

Even so, you gave yourself the out of "barring special circumstances" so how can you possibly consider your case against me as legitimate?

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm thinking maybe we should destroy Escouta instead of FFFF.

Why?

Because I think that we will learn a lot more about the Elscouta flip than FFFF. FFFF's behavior, to me, seems like a lyncher. I just saw the exact same thing happen in a game that just finished (only it was successful). I think it is pretty clear that FFFF did not share the town win condition and I believe he had his own personal win condition so (if true) it would be much more difficult to sift through who was scum on his wagon. Since Escouta was also raising suspicion to people yesterday I am more interested in his flip and those people at the moment. I am also inclined to think that Escouta was a vig target last night based on the previous days events.

That's a possibility, but you'll note that he didn't voice as much; he also didn't dispute the accuracy of my assumption, even if he attacked it for being an "assumption."

I didn't feel the need to voice my priority list of what games I respond to at what time because the foundation for your case is so ludicrous. You made a blanket statement about my posting habits based on your posting habits, which is flimsy at best. There could also be a thousand different reasons for posting in one game over another, none of which I can prove so what is the point? I didn't really feel like getting in a "he said/he said" debate about my unprovable motivations.

What is most concerning to you: the fact that I posted only in the newbie game instead of my others while having Limited Access or the fact that I responded to other games first when I got back?

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP:

Revive: J-Scope

xvart.

[xvart]

The town response to my criticism would have been something like what Starbuck mentioned -- that you put this one off because it's a Large rather than a Mini.

Well, since your case on me was based on your scum playing habits I didn't really see the necessity of explaining my actual behavior and prioritizing strategy since it seemed irrelevant. I also didn't feel the need to justify your ridiculous case with "evidence" that I can't prove in game.

Xvart - my one issue with you is that if you go V/LA. You are V/LA from all your games. You don't pick and choose.

Point taken. It was my intention to post in games (as I said in non-locked threads). I wasn't on a business trip or at a conference or at a funeral or anything like that. I was visiting my sister and thought I would have plenty of downtime, which turned out to not be the case.

I did use msutils.net and see that you hadn't posted in this game since Sunday, April 11th, but you had enough time to post in your other games all last week, which was more than just posting in your Newbie game as you previously state. You have 19 posts in those other games before the Newbie one starts on Thursday.

This isn't what Iecerint is accusing me of and I want to make it clear before the two get muddled; but since you brought it up...

Here's the timeline of this game and my posting in it during the time in question:
April 9 - I posted at 2:14 pm
April 11 - I posted at 3:02 pm
Aprill 11 - I posted again at 11:00 pm
April 13 - Thread locked at 7:28 pm
April 15 - Announced V/LA in unlocked games at 3:15 pm
April 15 - Thread Unlocked at 7:09 pm
April 18 - I announced at 8:46 am that I would be back and post later that night.
April 18 - Thread locked at 7:00 pm
April 20 - Thread unlocked at 7:27 pm
April 20 - Posting resumed at 9:44 pm

So where was I active lurking? The times I posted up to the xoelf lynch, the times I was V/LA, or the times the thread was locked?

The only time I have had the ability to post and have not posted in this game for an extended period of time was when I was V/LA. You seem to imply that I was posting elsewhere (not just the newbie game) and not posting here. Check the 19 posts you are referring to and see if those timestamps fall into the locked thread times for this game.

preview edit:

yay I'm back. So to answer a few questions. No I don't kill myself and I was not informed who killed me. Reading yesterday FFF was clearly lying.

Was there any flavor in your kill notice?

xvart.

[xvart]

My recollection is that he posted in other games just before his V/LA

This game was locked at the time.

...and he posted in other games just after his V/LA.

This game was locked.

He didn't post in this game immediately before the V/LA...

This game was locked.

...and he didn't post in this game immediately after the V/LA (well, he says he was cut off by the thread closing, which is plausible, but he appears to have had a 1.5 hour window).

This game was locked. Check the post progression timestamp of the two games right before the time this thread was locked.

I posted in a game ten minutes before this game was locked and in another game 30 minutes before that.

xvart.

Do you see a pattern developing?

[xvart]

You had time between your post on the 11th and when the thread locked on the 13th. You have 6 posts in other games during this time.

I didn't have anything to say as the SensFan/Xoelf divorce court concluded.

You also had time between when the thread unlocked on the 15th and when it locked on the 18th. You had 2 posts on the 16th in other games.

As I have said, I did have some time, but obviously not enough for every game, and not as much as I originally thought.

Why would'nt you have stopped in here while you were on the site during those times?

Maybe because there was a cluster fuck of posting with a significant number of pages and I really didn't have the time?

xvart.

[xvart]

@Mod: Given the Mufasa/FFFF ban, can we wipe those destroy votes plz?

The point of destroy is knowing alignment/role name so I don't see how FFFF being banned would change anyone's opinion about destroying/knowing his alignment.

xvart.

[xvart]

Gotcha, PZ. I guess I wasn't thinking that there was a chance in hell he would get revived so I didn't consider that permutation.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'll say again that I think FFFF was a third party lyncher. It's the only explanation for his behavior other than some self sacrificing town power role outting gambit.

I think Budja definitely needs some more scrutiny. I'll also say that I played poorly at the beginning of Day One and I think I set myself up to be an easy mislynch, one of which I think that Budja was trying to capatilize on by redirecting me by saying I was misrepping him again, which when questioned about the misrep accusation there was no response.

I think Drippereth may have nailed it on the head (and her coffin so to speak) with this post, saying Budja was scum voting a townie (although I don't think FFFF was scum but the scum reaction would still be the same to a third party since it would eliminate two non-mafia members). This would also explain the Dripperth revive comment; especially considering J-Scope is already confirmed to be revived at days end.

It makes me even more suspicious now that Budja has a town read (for unknown reasons) on me and I believe he picked up the reason for my question to him.

Vote: Budja
Destroy: Elscouta

xvart.

[xvart]

is anyone else not feeling the usual minty-fresh obvtown aura spyrex usually exudes?

Which might give more credibility to Drippereth's post.

re

vote xvart

. Just realized I had a bad reason for unvoting.

Reasoning for voting? It sounds like you are still satisfied with the D1 case or is there more to it now?

xvart.

[xvart]

Had a seizure this morning and am having trouble remembering/reviewing my games because I can't keep get the last 36 hours straight. I'll post tomorrow at the latest once I get my head back on straight and can review the threads.

xvart.

[xvart]

Zito is town because he PM'd Plum to complain about his reads. He wouldn't do it as scum and I doubt he'd lie about it expecting someone to see it as a towntell.

Except it was seen as a town tell so the basis behind it is fairly flimsy...

He could be a scum looking for another scum group and having a hard time finding them.

Are you suggesting that Zito is actively trying to hunt out scum factions by getting hints from the mod?

Is this whole Spy/Iec/Socio meta shenanigans going to turn into another Sensfan/Xoelf wagon to the end of day blaze of not-so-gloriousness?

Can someone explain the case on SPS?

I asked this way back on D1 and never got a legitimate response. I'm still befuddled...

xvart.

[xvart]

Just a moment - what the fuckbucket is this unbreakable alliance nonsense? Are you chumps setting up voting blocks to instalynch people from this point on? Or is it a way to not so subtly mask your buddy buddy tenancies with the other scum by having most of them voting along "party lines" with the rest of these jokers who seem to only speak in half astute, half sentence accusations and other such garbly gook:

If it goes the way of Ice I'm not going to cry (and it'll make me feel a lot better about Budja / Jack - Jack especially).

So, whatever is clever.

My issues with SPS are far more visceral. There's a SECRET TELL as well.

Seriously, does the half asserted, quaint statements make it appear to be scumhunting or does it distract from everyone else that you don't have to back anything up because of the poetical nature?

If it goes the way of Ice I'm not going to cry (and it'll make me feel a lot better about Budja / Jack - Jack especially).

What are you saying? That if the lynch goes in Iec's direction you won't care? And, if the wagon goes that way you'll feel better about Budja and Jack (especially Jack). Does it even matter what Iec flips? It doesn't sound like it to me.

The whole selection process for this "unbreakable alliance" is ludicrous, especially since there seems to be an ever changing list of possible scum (out of three or so) and the decision making process is so mundane that the likelihood of scum being in the alliance is extremely high. This whole alliance thing stinks of town buddying with scum or more likely, scum buddying with town.

I'm starting to look back at day 1 and wonder if those pushing the elf lynch were doing so to save SPS.

This is an interesting thought. I think I'll go back and look at the biggest wagon pushers. Do you have any further thoughts, or just that SPS is scum and his buddies were trying to save him?

@xvart, 1. you

were

misrepping me,

So regarding the post in question you deny that you had set yourself up to jump onto one of the top three wagons at the time?

xvart.

[xvart]

I just find the entire transpiring events... intriguing... to say the least. Especially in light of the haphazard (at least to appearances) method of "unbreakable alliance" selection. For example, Sociopath and Budja...

Its a function of the power-votes Jack got when I was arguing with him in rapid succession: Budja, Ice, Sociopath were waay too fast for me to think that the combination of those three + the target (Jack) are all going to be town.

And now two of those people are on your "unbreakable alliance" without hardly a second eye bat. This is at the least mildly disconcerting to me.

Who, in this great tangled mess, is the "scum buddying with town?"

Is it PZ the perpetrator of the initial idea buddying with me?
Is it I who took that first huge step and laid out my feelings?
Is it both of us, scum powers unite, pulling all the stops and working this out together as a method to buddy with that whole group?

This is what I'm still trying to work out. I certainly don't know you and Zito's background of playing together and whether or not this is typical fair, but right now I'm leaning towards you being scum attempting to create a faction loyal followers under the guise of "pro town behavior". What's your best course of action going to be? Kill one of your scum partners to increase the stock in your alliance? Only hunt the other scum faction, if there is one?

Spyrex and Zito - are you certain that there is no scum on your "alliance?" Conversely, does it matter if there are scum on your alliance?

xvart.

Vote Count 3 - 10: Lynch

Steam-Powered Shovel - 3 - Jack, SpyreX, MehPlusRawr,
xvart - 2 - Iecerint, Kmd4390
Iecerint -

4

- SocioPath, Cyberbob, Starbuck, Papa Zito
Jack - 1 - Steam-Powered Shovel
Kmd4390 - 1 - curiouskarmadog
Budja - 1 - xvart
curiousjarmadog - 2 - Budja, farside22,

Not Voting (4): Anon, SensFan, Cobalt, ooba

With 18 players alive it'll take 10 to lynch and 9 to no-Lynch.

[xvart]

Keep in mind that xvart says I'm the scum for doing this. Specifically, for setting it up for pro-town cred.

That could be important later.

Actually, I said I'm

leaning

scummy at the moment; but perhaps that could simply be because I understand neither the purpose nor the scope of your alliance, especially when you seem not to care if scum has infiltrated your voting block.

xvart.

[xvart]

Did FFFF get the choice to whom to transfer the power?

xvart.

[xvart]

I have information that FFFF's power

can

be transfered to someone else if he dies. That's as much as I'm saying on the matter.

Emphasis mine. Doesn't automatically get transferred?

xvart.

[xvart]

Yes, he is.

xvart.

[xvart]

No no. Heat from him. Not ON him.

Heat

from

SPS? Is there a standard level of heat that is associated with town that is not being displayed that encourages your suspicion? I would hate to suggest and ask about standard level of heat associated with town-

SPS

because I think your anti-meta coalition might implode at the hint of suggestion.

xvart.

[xvart]

I have absolutely NO idea what xvart is going on about.

SpryreX - let me see if I can be more clear. I'm assuming by "heat" you mean a level of tenacity in defending oneself (at least that is the context I am reading in the original statement). Is that correct? Is there an expected level of return heat typically associated with a town-aligned person when being bandwagoned? Or is it an expected level of heat from a town aligned SPS that is the cause of your furthered suspicion?

xvart.

[xvart]

Yes there should be some heat. Or anything besides "is this just because I'm playing how I play?"

If town and you're getting a wagon on you you damn well should be able to analyze it. DOUBLY so if you legitimately think you've done no wrong.

And the result should never be just a shrug of the shoulders.

I I've been reading back for a while and let me see if I have the case on SPS right (outside of the... wait for it...

Secret Scumtell

...):

First, pushing pointless RVS wagons:

Iecerint

- in ISO43 you say SPS posts are scummy, but not for the reasons MPR stated. What were the differences? Were the differences so obvious you did not need to state them?

Then, Iecerint, you say in ISO54 that

if

Jack wagon scum exist that your guess is CKB

or

SPS. Were the scummy reasons before just scummy behavior and not the behavior of scum? The conditional in your ISO54 concerns me greatly.

Second, SPS's reaction to the fake daykill.

The other pieces include "gut" (Jack, answering a direct question in 612) and secret scumtell.

Is there anything else that I'm missing? Who have the biggest proponents of the SPS wagon been so I can go back and read them in isolation? Iecerint, SpyreX, and Jack?

My other concern about this wagon is that the case may have some level of credibility, but not to the degree it is given. Perhaps that is because I am not privvy to Jack's gut and SpyreX's secret scumtell, but everything else is marginal at best. I don't think it is any stretch of imagination to think that I am alone in this thought, and that makes SpyreX's reaction to not having a more tenacious reaction troubling.

xvart.

[xvart]

SPS is a fair lynch but... not uniquely. I can name many players (e.g. Sens, Anon, KMD) who also suck on the content front.

Was his lynch more unique when you were voting for him on D1?

xvart.

[xvart]

I don't understand your next question. IIRC, I thought the scummiest/most opportunistic Jack voters were CKD and SPS. (I think I thought CKD was particularly bad because he joined Jackwagon while supporting sketchyCB once people were saying they found CB town. SPS was due to relatively poor reasoning for the switch + lackluster play elsewhere.)

What I was getting at is the fact that you had already cast suspicion on SPS (in a FoS and saying his posts are scummy for a different, as of then, un-described reason) and then you say

IF

jack wagon scum exist it is either SPS or CKB. It appears to me that you you already suspect someone of being scum AND your secret towntell on Jack why the IF statement? Leaving a little wiggle room?

(I think I thought CKD was particularly bad because he joined Jackwagon while supporting sketchyCB once people were saying they found CB town.

When did the CB wagon become sketchy?

Xvart:

SPS: Scum, Town.

I want one simple word.

Leaning. Slightly. Scum. I find some of the people on his wagon much more scummy.

xvart.

[xvart]

Especially in regards to someone who really seems to be playing doublespeak in regards to this wagon.

Is it so hard to imagine that ScumA is trying to string up ScumB in this situation? That's what I'm trying to figure out. The wagon is weak, but not completely unfounded. I'd rather put the fire under some of the people that have been advocating it as

the

wagon now since it very well could be scum on scum wagon.

xvart.

[xvart]

SPS - Can you still stay the locked in revive or destroy? Or once they are locked in is your power no longer usable for that day? Would it be appropriate to ask what happens when you hold the Simaril?

Why, if this power was scum, would SPS ever allow someone to be revived (unless they were on the same team)? Under that assumption, then SPS and Farside and Drippereth (assuming it goes through) would all have to be on the same team. Since it is an anonymous action it couldn't be tracked (unless by other watcher/tracker type roles) easily.

He said something that made me think and it can be proven. So I'm think if he can prove it then let him prove it.

The only problem is I want both actions to go through tonight. We need a flip on Elscouta and I think Drippereth should come back (although I could be convinced to let this slide a day; but that seems more problematic by letting one less likely town back in the game).

CBwagon was never sketchy. CBplayer was sketchy. CKD was like "Vote: Jack. CB is town." just after some other people had done something similar.

Thanks for the clarification. You are still scum.

Unvote
Vote: Iecerint

xvart.

[xvart]

farside, ckd, xvart. If a no lynch happens it's because of them.

Yes, of course... Don't even give two shits about Cyberbob, Starbuck, Budja, SensFan, ooba...

God damn it

QFT.

Unvote
Vote: SPS

xvart.

[xvart]

J-Scope - what ability did you use on Jack N1?

xvart.

[xvart]

okay I'd like to come clean....


I am the watcher but I dont have the silmaril.
I did watch j-scope and no one targeted him.
I made up that he targeted farside just to go with my suspicion that since no one targeted J-Scope at night there was a chance that he could be scum.

@xvart, if you think we're town (by way of helping to revive us) I don't see why you'd want us to essentially full claim. So I'm not answering that.

Shit. I totally forgot the part where he said he lied about everything based on his "suspicion." Nevermind the question; I was still trying to wrap my head around the whole bus driver possibility thing.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm voting Anon. Maybe you should too.

What's the case on Anon?

Going back to yesterday:

Vote: Iecrint

xvart.

[xvart]

To clarify .. I targeted someone last night and got the result .. "Someone watched PlayerX" .. Could be another watcher also (maybe of the race of men?) but think FFFF's power transferring is more likely ..

How does someone watching someone mean it is more likely that FFFF's role got transferred?

Lurker wagons (Anon, Cobalt) < Scummy player wagons (CKD)

Says the lurker...

HEY my super secret scum tell worked didn't it.

Your super secret scum tell on FFFF? We don't know yet.

SPS definitely got enough votes, but I wonder if his destruction was blocked somehow.

Destruction is resolved after the lynch.

Starbuck

(no feelings either way)
Cobalt
Budja

CyberBob

+Iecrint

My changes added.

Elscouta: saying hi to your scumbuddy gives you just enough points for your slow and painful death. I dont see why would a townie joke with that considering the posterior mess it could create. But lets assume for a second you are just silly and thought it was cool enough to "claim" scum in your first post, just for the lulz. Lets assume you are a decent scumhunter and that you are not going to OMGUS people that are/were voting you for a VALID REASON....

Bzzt.

I was wrong.

I don't like Anon and Drippereth because they have been both attacking me and xvart, with very little reasoning.

So I'm scum because Elscouta linked to me?

xvart.

[xvart]

ooba - You saying I should read better... is that based on this question or just in general? Is there an answer somewhere that is obvious that I missed? How does "Someone watched PlayerX equal "someones power got transferred to PlayerX?"

To clarify .. I targeted someone last night and got the result .. "Someone watched PlayerX" .. Could be another watcher also (maybe of the race of men?) but think FFFF's power transferring is more likely ..

How does someone watching someone mean it is more likely that FFFF's role got transferred?

What is supersaint? Whoever hammers dies too?

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart: what is your biggest point on Iec? One of these?

Pretty much, but this one seals the deal in my eyes:

I don't understand your next question. IIRC, I thought the scummiest/most opportunistic Jack voters were CKD and SPS. (I think I thought CKD was particularly bad because he joined Jackwagon while supporting sketchyCB once people were saying they found CB town. SPS was due to relatively poor reasoning for the switch + lackluster play elsewhere.)

What I was getting at is the fact that you had already cast suspicion on SPS (in a FoS and saying his posts are scummy for a different, as of then, un-described reason) and then you say

IF

jack wagon scum exist it is either SPS or CKB. It appears to me that you you already suspect someone of being scum AND your secret towntell on Jack why the IF statement? Leaving a little wiggle room?

Iecrint is talking about

possible

scum on the wagon when he already FoS'ed someone on the wagon (and someone on his possible list).

I'm liking the Budja wagon more than the Iecrint wagon, but am fine with either should the Iecrint come back around.

Unvote
Vote: Budja

xvart.

[xvart]

I believe CKD. Budja is a better lynch today...

xvart.

[xvart]

If this lynch goes through I wish you were not elf so we could see an instant flip...

Right click the image, click copy image location, then paste that between img tags.

xvart.

[xvart]

Vote: Iecrint
Destroy: Elscouta
Revive: ooba

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry about my absence. I'll be posting tonight.

xvart.

[xvart]

Although the Destroy/Revive posted threshold's have already been reached, I would encourage no one else to vote on those; and, tomorrow, I would encourage everyone to not vote on those as quickly as we have been. My reasoning to follow in my Silmaril bonus section.

@Budja

- why did you not vote to destroy someone? Do you feel that nobody in the resurrection pool is beyond township-ness?

I'm also not a learned scholar of the book's history and lore, but I'm willing to lynch the wolf picture character in MPR. Someone may be able to shed more light on the lovers aspect and the storyline, but is it possible that one of the lovers is town and the other scum? If possible, how likely?

I'm fine with claiming, and I am fine with going first (so to speak). As I was reading I was considering claiming anyway based on a claimed double vig attempt on my life.

I am Dairuin, Town Vanilla, Race of Men.

I have a passive ability that I may have to protect someone (Called

Protect

). I know nothing else about it, but I'm assuming that unless already dead, someone can confirm this (unless it is a Silmaril bonus).

My Silmaril bonus ability is a one shot lower vote threshold on one person of my choosing for any of the vote counts of my choosing (Called Votecount (special)). My change will not show up on the vote counts. So if one of the "may or may not" conventions allows passing the Silmaril this can be confirmed prior to us reviving or destroying someone.

I have never held the Silmaril nor had any outside contact with any player in the game. No one has targeted me (to my knowledge) and the only pm I have received from the mod (outside the role pm) is when I was asking a clarification question about my Silmaril ability.



It does not matter to me who goes next; if you want to follow the suggested list (by Spy I think?) or I can pick someone.

xvart.

[xvart]

How can xvart claim vanilla if he has some kind of ability?

I was wondering about this, too, when I received my role pm. The only thing I can think of is because it is a "passive ability." I actually forgot all about the protect ability until I went to get the info from my role pm for my claim.

xvart.

[xvart]

Papa Zito - do you have any info about whether or not there are other bodyguards out there? You don't have to answer until after everyone is claimed but this is something I was wondering about.

Spy - when you say double jailkeeping, you don't have a one-shot clause, what do you mean? Can you jailkeep two people in a night?

xvart.

[xvart]

What's the purpose of shooting Jack again?

Vote: Starbuck

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP: I meant to add that I was thinking that there would have been a simalir bonus of raising the lynch threshold (opposite of mine), but I suppose that could be on one of the dead folks. I find it highly unlikely that there are two of the exact same simalir bonuses.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm ready to vote Budja. Spy - did you still want to wait? Did everyone chime in? The Jack destroy is locked so we are good to go there.

xvart.

[xvart]

Well unless there is a random mass exodus from the Budja wagon for some reason, I don't see a problem waiting.

xvart.

[xvart]

Alrighty then... Time to die, scum.

Vote: Budja

xvart.

[xvart]

Yeah, I'm pretty melodramatic so sorry I didn't stir your loins with that one.

xvart.