Newbie 940 - Game over

[Pulindar]

IC stuff

Hi guys, apparently I'm one of two ICs that you're going to have this game.

I'd like to start off by letting you know that as an IC I'm here to help you guys out, and to clarify things. If you have any questions about anything in the game, feel free to ask me here. If you need help with a few things externally (rules and general stuff like that) you may pm me. Please do not pm me about anything in game. Anyway. To help you guys out here are a few things I find extremely important in the beginning.

Editing

We are not allowed to edit our posts after we submit them. This is to ensure that everyone can look back and correctly see what was said. It also leaves room for slips. There are times though when people want to edit something, or make a continuation post. At the top of those posts type

EBWOP

It means Edit By Way of Post.

ISO

Isolation. It's a way to read players... At the bottom of the page there is a thing that says display posts from previous. Then there are three drop down boxes the middle one says all users. Select that box and then choose a user who has posted in the thread. Thus you read them in Isolation and can often get a different viewpoint of them. Remember post count starts at 0.

RVS

Random Vote Section. A fun way to start most games and get to know each other. often includes Random question section as well. It helps generate discussion and gets people talking.

To continue, HI NACHO. (he's one of my favorite people to play with.) Nacho was in my first newbie game, which was actually modded by VRK. I don't know either of the SEs, but I'm sure I'll get to know them soon.

Vote Nacho

for being the first person to have solid reads on me in multiple games.

[Pulindar]

Oh, By the way, Nacho is at L-4 that means that 4 more votes will lynch him. I guess [no] is as well.

It's just something to keep up on, accidental lynches are the worst.

[Pulindar]

Can someone please clarify something for me? Does "5 to lynch" mean we

have

to get five votes on someone to lynch them? Or is it just the number of votes that

guarantees

that someone gets lynched? I.e. can someone be lynched with the highest number of votes, even if its not >50%?

# At deadline, ½ the original number of votes will be required for a lynch. In the case of a tie, the person who first received the required number of votes will be lynched. If this number is not met, a No Lynch will occur. There will be no reduced number of votes in LyLo.

IC Info

AV, we need to get 1/2 of the living players, rounded down, +1 votes on someone to lynch in this game. Every mod is different so it is important to read and discover what they will do when there are not enough votes at deadline. VRK, in this game, will knock the number of votes needed in half (I think rounded up) and the one with the most will be lynched. If tied then the one who got there first will be lynched.

Different mods are different, and the same mod can be different in different games. (Haylen for instance will kill the one with the most votes, or if tied the one who got there first. not needing half.) To lynch someone before deadline Day One in this game we need 5 votes on that person. To lynch someone at deadline Day One of this game we'll probably need at least 3 votes. Without that VRK makes it a no Lynch. At that point we move onto night.

In my opinion this would, usually, be a good thing for scum as the only way we can kill them is through lynching. and lynching provides flips which often helps lead to scum as well.

Also, I don't find a problem with answering questions aimed at other people it shows your involved. Just don't do it when specifically asked not to.

This RVS is going fairly well, but we need more people to jump in. Anyway,

Unvote Nacho

L-5

Vote Die Prediger

L-2

Die Prediger

1.) Do you think Bandwagons are a scummy thing?
2.) Do you think pressure is scummy?
3.) If so, please say why.
4.) Can someone determine scum reliably from one post?
5.) If I showed you an example where someone did you would you think they could?
6.) What is your favorite role and why?

Thor

1.) Did you truly find Die Prediger's post scummy?
2.) If not, where you just testing him?
3.) You did not quote him, but implied what he said. While I understand the implication you gave, it feels like a misrepresentation Do you accept that charge?
4.) Do you feel his vote on you was in any way OMGUS
5.) if so why? If not Why not?

[Pulindar]

EBWOP

I forgot to include this definition for those of you who don't know.

IC Info

OMGUS

Oh My Gosh You're Stupid. Basically this is when you vote someone for no reason other than that they're making a case against you. When you don't have a strong enough case against them to prove that they're scum, but because they're voting you you feel they must be. This type of voting is generally frowned upon.

VRK and Thor both Sniped me

[Pulindar]

2. I do not see this as mutually exclusive. Why would you think a vote has to be for either a perceived scum tell *or* to 'test' someone?

No, they are not. What I meant was to ask what was your main purpose. To test, or because he seemed scummy. (there are of course other reasons as well, but those two seemed the most likely)

3. I did not imply what he said. I offered my interpretation of what he said. I accept that it was my interpretation. Do *you* think it was a misrep of him?

It bothered me a bit, yes. But I understood why you were saying it so... I wasn't sure, I wanted your thoughts on your action.

4. Going with the purest definition of OMGUS (oh my gawd, you suck - for the newbies). An OMGUS vote is a vote made on someone only because they are attacking/voting for you. I do not believe Die's vote was OMGUS.

5. He attempted to provide reasons for his counter vote. I am unimpressed by his reasons which is why I was pressuring him to justify the logic of his vote, but since his vote wasn't parsed "You're voting for me? Obv scum is obvious" it was not OMGUS.

Good!!! That is exactly what I thought you would say I'm glad

I disagree with you as far as the 'it's okay to answer questions directed at others' because that then allows the person who was asked the question to frame their answer in a cop-out way by saying 'ah, what he said' instead of actually answering it themselves.

Aurorus answered a question that had already been answered, however, so I have zero issue with that specific point.

If I ask a question of someone I do not think I should need to say each and every time that I expect their answer to the question (if we're going that route I wish it to be understood that all my questions will have this caveat attached to them even if I do not type it out)

I see your point, and I must apologize for I think that I explained my thoughts poorly.

Yes, you should wait for the person specifically asked first, but you should also be able to answer questions regardless if you feel like it. For instance you ask later

Do you believe you will have difficulty lynching someone if they have certain traits you enjoy even though they are the more obvious scummy player?

and AV answered negatively. My answer to this question would be Yes, and in fact it has cost me a game. But it has also made it so that I lynched the right person in another spot. I'd like to say that certain traits make me think people are scummy or not, and I find very few things obvious.

I don't believe it'll be a problem that I answered that question because it will help you understand my play (which in my mind helps town).

Where you would ask someone not to answer a question would be when you are trying to trap someone else. Trying to ensure that they can't use another's logic to get out of something they set themselves up in. I rarely do that, except when I am scum, but I have seen town do it before, and they've caught scum through it. I've also seen town try it, and other town get out of it successfully, so it does work, like all things, sometimes.

I think anything that gives us information or a read on scum is good for the town. The answer in itself is problematic for the town, because, like you said, it stops the person to whom the question was addressed from giving an original answer. However, problematic does not mean the same as unhelpful. The context in which the answer was given, and who jumps in front of what sort of question, is surely rich in information that will give us more to analyse.

oooo I like that point too. Especially since we'd notice when someone did say (yeah, just what that guy said)... hmm interesting.

One last little thing

Do you think he was defending you to get you to like him more, or to attack Die's in an off-hand manner, or to simply be a player who is offering his read on the scumtell?

This is a good question. By the Way, AV, I'm an IC. I will continue to separate my IC parts of my posts from my game parts. I made sure not to include it in my IC part because it is part of my post as a player, not as an IC. In no way was

Also, I don't find a problem with answering questions aimed at other people it shows your involved. Just don't do it when specifically asked not to.

Coming from my status as IC, and it is definitely a fair thing to question. By Thor questioning it I not only was able to defend myself, but was also able to further explain my thoughts and we were all able to learn more.

As IC it is important that I show you a real game and fight for my win condition, no matter what that condition is.

[Pulindar]

Unvote

[Pulindar]

ooo sniped by Thor again.

Anyway, I'd like Thor's questions to be answered, as well as:

3.) Did you realize that you were making it so Die was only one vote away from a lynch, everyone even had a chance to speak?

[Pulindar]

4.) Can someone determine scum reliably from one post?

From one post? Sure! But from the very first one? I doubt.

5.) If I showed you an example where someone did you would you think they could?

Please, show it.

I'll admit, it was the player's second post, still on page one though Glitch in time look at Nika. (note: this is also part of my Meta as town.)

6.) What is your favorite role and why?

Its the mason i played once in another site. You are town AND you can talk to each other. Whats your favorite role?

Mason was fun, I like Mafia goon best, especially in Newbie games. Though I want to try third party some time. Anyway, Mafia goon offers me not to be the main mafia (if there is a roleblocker) so I can help my partner and teach more (which I enjoy doing) It also let's me be mafia and some players some interesting things.

Though I will admit, I don't like having to lie, and I HATE putting pressure and killing people who are playing a decent game and don't understand why they're dieing. It makes me feel bad

Still, I prefer it, generally speaking. I have never tried a power role other than mason though, so I may like those as well... VT is ok, but I like variety and I've been VT alot. Still, in my favorite games (glitch in time and Newbie 869) I was VT, so I really enjoy those games, I just like trying other roles.

[Pulindar]

Both Mafia had already voted in me, so they couldnt give the final vote? And not giving it, assuming the one that could've give it was the mafia???

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here...

he's asking if you thought of the four people on him two were mafia.

Die Prediger probably (though I won't say for sure) thought your vote was on him.

[Pulindar]

I'd just like to say, that I don't like the way either of them have gone about things. I think there is a good possibility that [no] got worried and was bussing his partner, or maybe just distancing. I dunno. Still, suspicious.

IC notice

Bussing v.s. Distancing Bussing is voting your scum partner to the point that the town lynches them. It is a common tactic used by scum to accrue town credit. Distancing is based on a similar idea, but is merely arguing against your partner to make it seem as though you are on different teams. Distancing may also be placing a vote on your partner that you think is unlikely to help bring about their lynch.

FoS [no] & Die Prediger

@ AV: yeah, I think three people have yet to post. Hiphop (SE) Jerako (New) and Nacho (IC)

For the next few hours I'm going to be silent, I want more people to join first. I will answer game questions though, if need be.

Vote Nacho

My random vote is back in place until more people join in conversation.

[Pulindar]

Official "OMG You People Talk A Lot!" Vote Count

Anon accuses me of being a Mastin alt. (I am not) hehe

Back to waiting.

[Pulindar]

now i feel you are just being aggressive to find mafia

Dear sir, if you think I'm aggressive you should wait and see some of the fellows from the "regular" Mafia games here. I'm a pussycat.

As currently stands - clearly [no] is working hard to dig himself a nice hole but I'm still getting such newbish vibes off of him it is hard to read clearly. I'm lukewarm about the timing of Jerako's vote and that right after his claimed need to assess more he promptly hops on what is clearly the hottest wagon around.

The way I see this is that Thor is actually asking questions well, and being pretty laid back. He's addressing issues, but not pushing them harder than he feels they need to be pushed. In all honesty I think he's playing a nice soft game of Mafia so far, getting you guys more used to the climate.

@Pulindar, I'm surprised you called out [no] without addressing the newbie issue. What's your read there?

eh not sure. I'm currently in five newbie games, and obviously have finished others. three of those games lynched scum. Two on the first day. every time it was a newbie playing the part poorly. Some major slip, some major thing. In the fourth game I have determined who the scum are, and again the first one was a newbie who made a major slip. I think [no] probably falls into this category, but I'm not sure. Plus, I want to have others express their opinions before weighing in too strongly with my own and over turning the game without people learning. These games are more for learning (in a couple days one of them should end and I'll show you what I mean)

Also, what was up with your RVS (now returned) of Nacho for 'reading you well'. Presumably if you're town you wouldn't worry about a scum reading you, because they already know who is town, so the logical presumption is you are scum afraid of town Nacho's foresight into your methods. Thoughts?

I like this question it supposes stuff, and drills me, and yet offers room to move. It's a well built question that gives the reader a chance to show that they're town, and will throw scum off. Everyone should read it. Specific questions like this help both the defender and the attacker.

Now, to answer. RVS happens to be my favorite section of the game. I'll return to it a few times, sometimes even on day two if I find no argument worth while and there's no reason I see not too. probably not in this game though too much to work with already.

So, that's part of my reason to returning to RVS. As for voting Nacho. I'm familiar with him, and enjoy him as a player. When I've been scum, or town, with my favorite players I tend to let them live longer than others just because I like playing with them. Basically, my RV is back on Nacho because I do not think anything will come of it. I doubt that anyone else plans on voting him, or that even if one or two do, that he'll be lynched before I sign on again. It seemed like a safe place to park my vote. I also tend to like keeping my vote on someone. I feel safe with it on Nacho. when I don't feel safe with my vote somewhere I don't vote and that makes me unhappy.

So... several reasons actually.

mmm last thing, I found out the Town tell Nacho gets from me and I now try to mix it up in all my games. I'm only semi successful, but suffice it to say that there was not the right circumstance for Nacho to tell my alignment yet anyway.

[Pulindar]

First off

IC note

In rules 8 & 9 VRK states that you may indeed post a small Bah post after you are lynched, and that all players may post in twilight.

HI NACHO (as I said in glitch, you're one of the best players I've played with.

2) Never ever ever self-hammer. Whether you're scum or town, it's always a bad move. Defending yourself until the end will give your scumbuddies time to divert the lynch or gain town cred for hammering you, or, if you're town, it will help town find the scum; it might even divert the lynch from you and onto the scum who's trying to get you lynched!

Just a note, didn't you do this once yourself??? Then again I think the other lynch at the time may have been KMD, the mafia godfather, and you were just a goon... I forget exactly.

[Pulindar]

Vote Jerako

[Pulindar]

First off Totally just finished a newbie game where town didn't loose a single person. super happy

Vote Die

I did quote the mod on that, Thor is right.

I'd also like to say... Thor stop stealing my ideas.

Thor asks good questions, town points for Thor.

[Pulindar]

Vote revocations should be bolded or they may not be counted (e.g. Unvote: Player or Unvote). Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.

So nope, don't need to unvote.

As for that question... I don't want to answer it just yet, but I will later. If I answer now it'll ruin my plan

[Pulindar]

Pul's obvious buddying attempts of you is just classic Pulindar. As scum, it helps certain townies want to lynch him less, and as town, it makes scum think twice before NKing him.

I'd like to point at my record, never Lynched and never NKed except once by vig in a game where scum couldn't night kill. (system was flawed ) I replaced into a spot that could not face anything else .

Still, I have yet to die. and my win ratio is improving as I play too. Just got a perfect town win.

[Pulindar]

Just curious... how do you get a perfect town win? doesn't one townie have to die at least? Or do you mean you lynched the two mafias in 2 days

we had a doctor, and thus the night kill was foiled. They only had one chance at a night kill as we found and lynched them both right away.

So No, not a single townie died in that game. I found our first scum, though it was a deadline lynch and I hadn't been quite sure about it. The second scum I wasn't sure until the middle of the next day. You can check it out on my wiki... ooo I need to update.

[Pulindar]

Either way, would you like to ask me some questions? I'll be glad to answer them to clear up or enable you to get a better read on me.

QFT

There are as many different playstyles as there are stars in the sky, my child. I have never had anyone accuse my general play style of being obnoxious or bothersome or scummy. There are other players whose playstyle is called one or all of those things. Some of those players are quite good at Mafia, so my advice is generally to go with what you think works - that's probably the best plot.

QFT as well
Though I have had mine called scummy for being too friendly I just like talking to people
__________________________________________________________
First off: Hi HipHop. Nice to meet you. Glad you have more experience, you can add a good hand in here and I don't need to worry about preforming poorly. Though I was banking on Nacho to do that as well. Nacho's an awesome player, like I said before. Though he lurks a good chunk when scum. much better as town.

Anyways Pulindar I don't like this, you clearly finger someone (actually two people, yet put a vote in a a placeholder? Maybe you should look at this where people argue that the rvs is not a stage, but more of trasition to get the game going. So placing a random vote after the game has more than enough info to place a fos is scummy. Just because some people haven't posted yet does not mean you cannot use the info already here. In my first game people attacked me for voting someone that hadn't posted yet. They said I should be concentrating on the info at hand because there is plenty to go on.

I get that, I really do, but I didn't want to place a vote on either one of them. I felt that my pressure on them would have been ill placed at that exact moment, but I did want to let them know I'd be watching them. Voting would have favored one over the other, I didn't want that. Also, I disagree and feel that RV can be used at any given time. It usually helps to have a reason to do it, but it can be used. I've made alot of cases on this in previous games.

You also state that you will be silent even though, you had the means to post. Almost like you want to hear others opinons and base yours somewhat after theirs. For that it at least deserves a fos Other than that, your play has been superb.

That is a VERY good point. I wanted to be silent for two reasons, I wanted to see what certain people would say without having me there messing with their words, and I didn't want the game to get too long before everyone joined in.

What I don't understand is how more people don't find die scummy. I mean his first vote clearly shows diversion. It also shows he doesn't want to get invovled. And his second post he uses the Omgus in a way, except says you put me at L-3, instead of you voted for me. Than for the next four posts he fluffs. Until Pulindatr asks him some questions. I believe bws help the town immensely. i tell you, you really should look at this game. I was scum in this game, and a bw was formed to bait the scum out. I was hit, line and sinker, as in lynched on the first day(only time ever lynched on the first day.) From than on I view bws in a different way. As for why didn't the mafia hammer, that is whole bunch of wifom. It is the idea of mafia to survive. Not reveal themselves in the first lynch.

Thus the reason I put both Die and [no] under suspicion.

Also I doubt if I was around Die would have been lynched. I would have put my vote on before he hit L-2. I doubt anyone else here would have put someone at L-1 besides [no] 2 pages in this game. Therefore he would not have been lynched.

yeah, probably true. I wouldn't have, that's for sure.

@Pulindar - you had previously expressed the belief that [no] was scum distancing/bussing his partner Die. How do you feel about this theory at this point?

I no longer agree with myself on this particular point. I think that they could not have pulled it off that way based on their later responses.

@ AV: I'd just like to say Silver's most recent post struck me as very townie. but I like your questions, keep it up.

Will do another post a bit later adding some more... I have a bit more difficult time forming attacks than I do forming defenses.

[Pulindar]

@ VRK, Thanks for informing us about the rule change

AV, I'm noticing Jerako's case on [no] as well.

I'll post more later, I'm a bit drained as of this moment. sorry guys.

[Pulindar]

Ugh, alot of posts since I was last on... oh well, better than having no activity. Let's see what's going on. ok, my last post was on page 7, and I hadn't really done much about the posts between it and my second last so I guess I need to go over even more than I first thought. We'll do it by person though I'll be reading comments and adding stuff in order of posts.

Sauron

First off, I'd like to say it's nice to meet you.

Anyway, I'll be doing a more thorough read and give you a nice long introductory post either tonight or sometime tomorrow, depending on when I first get a chance. All I ask is that you don't lynch me until I get a chance to give you my thoughts, but that should be fairly obvious.

Doubt it will happen, but the quicker you are the better. Even just reading from the point you joined and posting from stuff made from there would be better than delaying.

1.) do you seriously think there is a chance you will be quick lynched?
2.) if so why did you not post more, if not why even mention it?

AurorusVox

I'm satisfied with silverbullet999's responses to my vote and question Wink

1.) What makes you so satisfied?

I would not necessarily be so satisfied were I in your position, though I suppose I might be...

In other news, Jerako is building a very good case against [no], but I'm finding it hard to distinguish between a newbie scum contradicting himself, and a newbie townie contradicting himself.

Good point! I also like how you have questions to ask, yet I find it disturbing that you ask nothing of Jerako. That reminds me that you also protected Jerako earlier in the day...

2.) Why, when you are not certain of the case, do you not ask Jerako any questions?
3.) why did you not press Jerako about the possibility of pushing against newbie town.

Oh [no]! How comes? Did he decide he didn't want to play any more or is it the intervention of IRL issues?

hehe I enjoyed the pun.

Die Prediger

hiphop

Jerako

I don't like your case on Sauron's spot. You seem to be twisting his words every which way you can and trying to pin your beliefs despite the quotes you are providing. Your attack feels fake, and if feels like scum trying to get an easy, quick mislynch.

These are now both in reference to the exact same post. You have now made it into an even bigger contradiction than it was originally

The pretend contradiction you are providing is obviously not in existence. Look at those posts again, [no] clearly stated that sometimes a reason did not need to be great to make a decision, and that he thought that was the case in that instance. He later said that upon relooking at it it turned out it wasn't a good reason. That still does not mean that it's not ok to make a decision in his mind. I don't see that as a contradiction, and I know I have voted for people for reasons, that when later explained did not seem like good reasons to vote them. Sometimes I continued to remain suspicious.
1.) are you saying that players can not change their mind?
2.) are you saying that even without evidence players should not remain suspicious of other players?

Lolwut? Again. This has been your primary argument about why you made the vote in the first place. You were comparing this to another game, and you said you thought that the rules functioned the same way here at first:

This quote is true. Talking about [no] saying he didn't understand the rules and put Die at L-1 without full knowledge.

it's obvious that you're scum by doing so.

Again it feels like you're pushing this a bit too strongly.

Jerako's attack makes me think he's scummy. He does not ask questions, and gives [no]/Sauron no ability to even lessen his suspicion. That is a scummy attack.

3.) Jerako, do you have any questions to ask that spot?
4.) Do you feel that there is any way that spot can not be scum?
5.) If you were scum and your partner was messing up like you feel [no] is, would you attack them?

Nachomamma8

silverbullet999

I'm deciding against posting more of these if x then y statements because it could be an easy way for the scum to manipulate me if they wish.

Quoted for truth.

Another problem with setting up situations like that is if you are wrong. For instance saying scum needs to be one of these two, lynch one then lynch the other the next day could be bad if it was not. You need to keep considering the evidence given to you.

I have a feeling that that is how most games of this sort normally go since us newbie players are more likely to shed a tell vs an experienced player. It was no's actions in and of itself that put him up on the chopping block and it was die's reaction toward you that (at least for me) put him up on the chopping block. I think that day one will end with one of the two getting lynched (of course nothing is certain). I think day two will have a more general scumhunting of everyone, especially if whoever is lynched ends up flipping townie.

Eh... interesting answer. The first part is semi true. newer players do give more scum tells just by being new, but believe me by the end of day one most people can see through at least some of them to find some town/scum.

I believe that day 2 generally does have more scum hunting, but only because someone has flipped. One of the keys I have found is to lynch someone who will answer many questions and is not an unCCed power role. Generally lynching such a person helps town in the future. Not all of the people who seem scummy will help answer questions based on their flip. You seem to just be sitting back at the moment... and pointing a little finger at a few people... unsettling.
1.) Why are you not pushing for anything here?
2.) if you could go back would you push for something, and in what direction?

Well I'm strongly feeling suspicious of no... i think we discovered him... lol though i might be wrong.. but yeah.

Very similar to what Jerako said.
3.) did you realize that both you and Jerako were sounding so confident?

Oh I fully see reasons to try to scumhunt more experienced players, I have absolutely no read on hiphop and nacho as they haven't posted much.

Really?? They've both posted enough to give off weak reads. you need to pay more attention.

I completely agree I haven't really been getting much from my actions and I have done this purposely... for one (as stated before I believe) I'm new and am not sure how to pursue it, and right now I'm more watching your investigations.

This is good. This is what I've seen many newbie town do. You need to start pressing soon though.

With no looking for a replacement... i feel like it's a mega sign but I will wait as to everyone else's thoughts before starting an action.

This is bad... Very Very Bad. Replacing out means nothing. of my 7 completed games I replaced into 6 of them. 4 I was town aligned, 2 scum aligned. one of the four I was a power role. Odds seem pretty good in my mind for normal games. I have replaced at L-1 as both scum and town. (I won both of those games and survived too ) Replacing means nothing any way.

@Everyone Do you find no's replacement as scummy, and do you think he should be lynched asap? If so/not why?

I find it frustrated. A player who just wants a small break and doesn't know where he's going to get it. Oh well, it happens... As for lynching him right away ARE YOU CRAZY. Just above you said you didn't have a read on two people You can NEVER leave day 1 without some type of read on every one *laughs* oh well, this game is to teach so you'll learn...

Long days are good for town. Especially long day ones.
4.) why would you suggest shortening the day before you had a read on everyone?
5.) why in the world do you find replacing scummy?
6.) If I showed you a game where I replaced in as town and was at L-1 and won the game for town would you change your mind?

I'm a noob, I don't want to shoot the gun before everyone put their opinion in,

7.) Why do you feel a single vote would be shooting the gun?

Jerako seems to have made some good arguments though.

I disagree, but whatevs.

If you mean I've been sitting quietly in the background doing nothing... I will have to disagree with you there and would frankly be a little frustrated with that implication.

eh.. not really. You've made your opinion known sort of, but you back it up with things like saying that you like other's arguments rather than offering your own. Even in your vote post you used Jerako. Making your opinions known is making new opinions. What you are doing is letting others take the brunt of the attack, thus if it falls through they would be most likely to be questioned. You were just a bit obvious about it... probably on accident in general, but still read back on yourself and see.

8.) did you realize that you were depending almost entirely on others' arguments?

When did I say this?

Eh, sure seemed you were saying replacing was inherently scummy to me. you need to be a bit more careful, again. I can see what you mean, but again I refer you to my previous examples replacing from an onslaught is not scummy either.

BTW, no worries you'll get better.

9.) Do you find it suspicious that Thor is putting blame on everyone but the experienced players?
10.) what do you think about the other experienced players?
11.) do all of the experienced players seem to be agreeing?
12.) do you find Thor putting words in your mouth, possibly misrepresenting you, suspicious?
13.) do you think he is doing it on purpose?

Thor : "hai guyz im askin people questionz and acusing peoplez and being the leador! don suspec me cuz im scumhuntin and if im scumhuntin there are no way i am scum!"

I found this funny, you fighting back with the same degrading stuff. You two should stop arguing like that though, it's not good. even if it is funny it's rude either way.

Also Jerako seems to have been skipped (just pointing it out, no criticism meant).

Ah, but it's something you should criticize (or so I think) There are numberous reasons he could have skipped Jerako, it might have even been a scum slip because he's trying to ignore his partner in his mind so that he won't draw strings back.

14.) do you think Thor and Jerako being partners is viable?

Could you make a prediction as to who you think will end up being lynched on day 1?

I find that question to be scummy. Though I asked it myself when I was new so... eh...

Thor665

I like aspects of Jerako's case (specifically I like the "second" contradiction) I think that's the most scummy thing we have on [no] right now.

I agree, but I don't like the way he went about it.

1.) If that was your favorite point, why did you not press for more on the other points?
2.) Did you find anything suspect in Jerako's case against [no]?

@silverbullet - what is your feeling about how thus far all the scumhunting has been focused on the 'newbie' players and not on the 'experienced' players?

Interesting question, I wonder why you didn't address it to the other players as well though. Maybe I'll find out as I go.

So you see no reason to maybe try to scumhunt the more experienced players now?

I'm pressuring you about scumhunting because I'm not feeling a lot from your actions thus far. As a second question - whom do you feel you are investigating right now (and while we're at it, why)?

Good questions.

If [no] replacing out is a "mega-sign" why do you need others to move first? Shouldn't you move, so you can show us the "mega-sign" and lead the way to lynching the scum?

....

Why should [no] replacing out affect your drive to get reads on other players? Especially since you specifically mentioned two players who you have no read on - that seems something you should be trying to solve proactively rather then sitting back and hoping someone will do it for you. If you lack a read or you feel someone isn't doing something they should - then *you* should do something about it.

Again, good questions.

I think this is our first policy lynch concept this game (Policy Lynch = a lynch based off of a set rule that never changes. e.g. - always lynch anyone who lies, always lynch anyone who lurks, always lynch anyone who replaces out, et al)

Personally I am lukewarm about most policy lynch concepts (I will also warn you that many players actually consider the very concept of using policy lynches to be scummy, be forewarned in other games). I am certainly against a 'lynch anyone who replaces out' policy unless you can show me evidence that more then ::insert base mathematic ratio of scum to town in Newbie games::% of people who replace out in Newbies have a scum role.

Basically, if your policy lynch catches people provably more often then going 'eeny-meeny-miney-moe' I will be in favor of it. Otherwise I am against it.

I already put my odds out there for my own replacements. only two of those replacements were in newbie games, both were town. I cannot talk about my replacement in newbie games that are ongoing.
I do find suggesting someone to be lynched for replacing as scummy. I also find that there are some policy lynches that are not scummy. I policy lynch any player purposely giving a null tell. I.E. someone playing a poor game to make people think he is too terrible to be really playing. Someone giving obvious scum tells all the time and doing nothing to change it. At worst I killed the most anti town player.

3.) What policy lynches do you typically condone?
4.) have you ever been lynched for condoning policy lynches?

@Sauron - since your name implies you are obvious scum soon we shall lynch you. Prior to that, if you could address any outstanding questions to [no] that would be excellent in my opinion.

I don't like this, many of the questions addressed to [no] were about his previous experience

5.) why would you ask something so generally, rather than stating specifics?
6.) Do you actually have any questions for Sauron?

"Hai guyz, I'll be reactive but no will due hunting for scummorz. do n0t suspectz me! kthxbye."

While this may be a generalization of someone, rewording them like this is degrading and rude.

7.) does being rude help you catch scum?
8.) Do you realize this is a learning game and should be a friendly environment?

TL:DR version;

I refute silverbullet's claims of putting words in his mouth and continue to pressure him on his desire to lynch [no] for replacing out. I also respond to his questions, explain how I've been scumhunting more people then he thought, and disagree that I was 'confident' in my vote on Die.

I found this funny too, though I'm going to read the whole post and get a real read on what happened.

9.) do you think everyone will see it the same way your summary puts it?

Okay, so now we're saying that you are only planning to hunt them on Day 2 because you won't know how to scumhunt till then. Fair enough. I would advocate asking them questions that pertain to their actions, that's my usual style. I also know a few players who get very serious analyzing voting patterns and/or activity levels. I also know players who just go off gut reads, vote people, and gauge reactions.

If you believe you have an idea of how to scumhunt, I would suggest going with that one as it will probably be at least personally comfortable for you.

QFT

Everyone please read the above quote. it is good advice

Seeing as how this is a game, consider the request honored. I will caution you though - if you find me abrasive and difficult to deal with you may have a rough time in other game threads.

This is true, but I'm glad you will stop for this thread. This is a teaching game after all.

I agree with you here, we need more of this kind of sense in the thread.

*laughs* this was funny too. I'm enjoying this now.

10.) do you think you are leading town around too much?
11.) what do you think of the other players, if you would a quick summary, since you have scum hunted most of them (you left Jerako out.)

Too long; didn't read.

Many players here tend to consider anything over two sentences to be too much effort to waste their mighty attention spans upon, and that anything worth saying can be said shortly and succinctly. I consider it silly, but occasionally seek to accommodate the desire out of deference and to perhaps test the validity of a hypothesis I have about how much weight a given post carries depending upon its length.

Again, this is truth. I've found that most either ignore long posts, or just accept them as being correct. (If he put that much effort in he must be town) eh.. it's unfortunate.

It is, within reason. Personally I think most players here curse too much, but to each their own. I prefer to try to focus on the game/fun aspect of it, but for some winning=fun and being serious is part of what they need to do. I'm sure you'll discover your own contented mix eventually...or have a psychotic breakdown.

hehe again, truth. I flip between being serious and having fun personally. I like doing both. I apologize if I get to serious on people I don't like doing that. I don't like ruining other people's games.

Why shouldn't you criticize me if you feel I haven't scumhunted Jerako? Personally I disagree with this assessment, but I see no reason for it not to worry you if you believe it to be true and believe I have scumhunted everyone else.

he wasn't saying you didn't scum hunt Jerako, he was saying you never mentioned Jerako in your list of people you scumhunted, which you didn't

12.) why did you leave Jerako off of your list?

I am not comfortable at this time suggesting there is anyone I am ok with (I am not).

Good
Also not outting your town tells (what makes you think people are town) is good advice for everyone. I survived once by reading through a thread and playing towards everyone's town tells. I happened to be town, but I replaced into a bad position (I mentioned the game earlier) and I could have done it as scum just as easily.

I figure 2-4 names should be more then ample at this stage though.

Should be, yes.

13.) Why did you ignore Silver's question about not including Jerako in the list of people you had scumhunted?

[Pulindar]

First off I'd like to say I got called away and never got to finish my post above, I'll get back to it later, but would also like to continue one with what's going on today.

Nacho has given a very clear read of himself in my mind. I've played with him in four games so far, and based on his two posts I find that I'm leaning strongly towards town with him. I have seen him as both scum and as town and he has some very strong meta tells. This game he seems to be playing his town game. I'll watch for it though because, as you have all pointed out, he has not posted much due to being V/LA


HipHop I am unsure of, but not due to lack of hints. He has merely said some things I find townie and some I don't I'll ask for clarification shortly.

Also, Pulindar, I feel like I want to ask you a question. What do you make of hiphop's two posts so far and their capacity to stir up virulent responses?

I had not gotten this far as of my post, so I didn't notice this at first, sorry. let me check. eh... not the biggest fan. Like I said, some things seem scummy, some seem townie. I need to examine it more and I will shortly.

(in relation to the bold) Well... should I take this as you heavily think I'm scum or strongly support me getting lynched?

How does this help town?

No reaction about page 8 so I guess you haven't read it yet?

I don't see why you would take it that way. I was merely saying what I do, not that I thought you were the top choice. I'll be pretty clear when I do say who I think the top choice is. As of yet I haven't decided, though a Jerako lynch would answer some of my questions.

It gives us leads for the next day, and makes others seem less scummy for their actions. It often depends on the flip, but can do wonders either way.

True that, I haven't read page 8 yet, well except for after my recent post. And I just finished hiphop's post on page 7. I'll go back and start there.

[Pulindar]

EBWOP

True that, I haven't read page 8 yet, well except for after my recent post. And I just finished hiphop's post on page 7. I'll go back and start there.

I meant I haven't read page 9 yet except for the recent posts, and that I'm on hiphops post on page 8. I have had reaction to, and quoted many things from page 8. Including a quote from your post 192 which is the last post I read before post 218

[Pulindar]

Thor- it is not important in a way. However it is also good for people to realize that if the IC survives, it does not mean that they are scum I was establishing that I may have more experience, as a lower rank, but we are all still people. It was also a joke. i do have to say that pulindar took it quite well. If I really wanted to be an IC, I could get sign up right now, but I don't.

There Is No Such Thing As Jokes!!!
hehe yeah it's all the same. One of my current games I replaced into a newbie spot and now the IC, and both SEs are dead. In the end that means I'm answering questions and trying to give them a good teaching game. It's important that they learn

HipHop,
Do you think Die and Silver make a good team?
Have you seen any reason to draw them together?
Is there anything that makes you think they would not be on the same team?
What about Thor and one of them?
Lastly, do you really believe the contradiction you mentioned?
If so, could you please restate your reasoning differently because the way you explained it did not make sense to me?


================================================
Nacho - good, I was hoping you weren't lurking

Only game I saw you actually lurk was glitch in time.

================================================
AV Interesting, but nothing new.

Notice how earlier he asked if cussing/getting angry was allowed --- and then, out of the blue, gets really angry...

That's a good point. Are you going to follow up on it?


================================================
Silver: I don't read things in all caps like that.

@Thor I'm not entirely sure what you mean when saying this. My replies with you have been authentic... it does annoy me when anyone puts words in my mouth (at least what i initially thought, I cooled down when everything was clarified, thus my "light-heartedness", would have i replied in an angrier outburst with you had i known i could cuss? probably not), and I have a feeling I'll keep getting questioned about the anger outburst with hiph0p (prevent ctrl f?) so I'll reveal it (under this hopefully long enough post so that he ends up skimming it and missing it until it's too late) My hope is to get into a heated argument with hiph0p, and perhaps him slipping some things out in his true rage. I find it a bit random and suspicious the way he just attacked me and seemed to try to start a bandwagon on me (granted he didn't place a vote on me). Maybe his quick glance of my posts made him feel this way... maybe he was egged on by a partner that may/may not be attacking me to join in to try to get me lynched.

ugh so many qualifiers.... ugh.... makes me wish I hadn't defended you below in the Thor section...

1.) again, does it feel like he's putting words in your mouth?
2.) when it was clarified did it seem he did not?

Your posts are confusing me to be honestly... I just want to skip this one and I read through it twice instead and still didn't get what you wanted...

ugh I skipped the capped post. 3.) did you ask him if he was trying to induce others to start a bandwagon on you? Why or why not?

================================================
Die, you missed alot of questions, may I ask why?
Do you plan on going back and answering them?
What do you think of the goings on so far?
Who is your top three suspects and why?

================================================
Thor

My reasons were already out there (not believing replacing out is scummy) and also my deduction is still disagreeing with yours. This looks like you're trying to go the friendly route now that the angry route didn't work so much for you.

Eh... I disagree. But, I also don't find his explanation convincing so... whatevs. I just don't think it's friendly v.s. angry, more like force of will/repetition v.s. persuasion. You make it sound like the method itself was tactic.

See above. I see you doing multiple moments of this sort of action - saying nice things over stuff that there is really no reason to be nice over. You also did it earlier when Aurorus was pressuring you, basically shrugging and mentioning that you were joking with promises to get more serious and involved.

While this is true, I don't see being friendly as bad. Nor do I see joking a bit as bad. For instance, later in this post you joke about Nacho lurking when he is V/LA. If you were being serious I would clamor on you for misrepresenting.

If you feel your method will help you catch scum, more power to you, just be aware that some scumhunting methods look scummy.

QFT

================================================
Mixed stuff

How about a third option? I see half of the players here are, in some way, more experienced than the others. You guys have been nice ICs for us, but at the same time you guys have been quite agressive on 2 newbies. Easy targets.

Even if this is true it can only really apply to Pulindar and myself since Nacho and hiphop were not participating at that time.

I believe we were both on you at one point, but with no's vote we simultaneously jumped off. I count jumping off as a null tell... if we had ignored it we would have been fine even if you were lynched, but many mafia jump off for town credit.

Anyway, we've gone in different directions since then. So, we aren't really being aggressive together. From what I've seen so far no one has been as aggressive as a real hard game though... A Glitch in Time
In that game the majority of the case on the day one lynch came from the person's second post. Which was

Are you serious when you say Parama is scum, Drip?

This post was on the first page.
the game started on the 19th, the first lynch was on the 21st. 18 pages in. Best part, the first lynch hit scum... We aren't being aggressive in comparison to that. Now, we probably aren't the easiest group either. But this is a teaching game so I don't think anyone has been too harsh. I know I'm trying not to be. Still, I am going for my win condition and will be looking for the best possible lynches.


================================================
I've read every post except the one in caps by Silver. my current thoughts are that
[no] was merely under too much pressure,
Silver needs to learn alot,
Jerako feels like scum,
I don't have a partner but am looking at everyone including Sauron and Silver.

[Pulindar]

Wikis

I made wikis for a few of our players following my personal setup. I did not make a wiki for anyone who had one, nor did I edit their wikis

I made wiki's for SB, Die, Jerako, and Sauron. Those were the only ones that needed them. I hope you guys enjoy.

[Pulindar]

7. I very rarely attempt to be rude, and honestly thought the l33t speak re-phrase was more playful then rude. It was not my intent to be rude to silverbullet at anytime thus far in this thread. I am occasionally more abrasive if I feel it is useful to the moment of the game. I have certainly seen abrasive play styles and tactics work and do not desire to totally rule them out of my methods, though they are a rare tool.

Fair enough. I was raising that point before you two talked it out and it seemed to have been settled anyway.

1. ...why would I? (<--not rhetorical) I found those points meaningless on the whole and have explained why. I see little reason to scumhunt up what I consider a dead end.

I wasn't sure what your reason was. This particular reason is one I'm willing to accept.

9. I answer with a question (rhetorical); Do you think everyone sees anything the same way when any opinion is expressed?

Point taken

13. I don't think I did. I addressed that I disagreed with a suggestion I hadn't scumhunted Jerako and I questioned why it wouldn't concern silverbullet if he thought this. To my mind that was answering his question. What part of the question do you think I didn't address?

To me it seemed like he was asking the same question I did in 12, which you answered now.

10. What would you define as how I am leading them? Clarify my leadership as you see it and ask again and I'll offer my read on that. In a general sense I am reasonably content with how I'm playing the game, though I wish I had already figured out everyone's role by this stage.

Fair enough. Do you think, through your influence that most of the players are following what you are saying, and focusing in the directions you focus?
If yes, do you think this could hurt town?

11. A quick summary containing what information? I am somewhat against discussing certain aspects, as I have already said. Clarify what you wish and I will address this more. It sounds like you're asking for a list of every player and whether I suspect them or not.

eh I suppose I was asking as toward your leans on each player, and if you wanted to give a reason why.

5. I do not have a specific yet to ask him. Do you?

no, he hasn't posted since his introduction. Actually I'm worried he may need to be replaced as well.

Is there a reason you don't share those strong meta tells at this point? Do you think town should just take your word on this one? I can understand you not wanting to clue him in on your meta read of him but...I feel like I'm being handed a horse pill with no water. Please pacify my concerns in some manner.

Because I don't want to clue him into those tells and have him stop. Also I'm not 100% sure yet and want to watch a bit more.
No, not at all. I personally believe everyone should form their own opinions on people, but if an attack starts on Nacho I am liable to defend him if I continue to think he is town.
As I said before, I don't really want to give them away. Still, if you want to try to find them. Here he was town....Here he was scum....Here he was town

I may give away my meta later if I feel it necessary and am more certain.

An IC I once played with told me 'there are no jokes.'

Eh... I obviously disagree with that IC.

Friendly, is not the scumtell I'm shopping on silver, friendly paired with his fake seeming (now admitted) angry outbursts seems scummy to me as he appeared to be trying to ward off suspicion through application of anger, sort of a modified OMGUS technique, if you will. (Get suspicious of me, will you? Fear the anger! But, hey, we can still be buds if you ease off.)

I understand what you're saying, I'm merely putting in that his politeness did not seem fake to me. His anger did seem like an Appeal to Emotion to me though.... SO, I guess I should watch out for that in his politeness as well, I just did not see it that way.

What is your feel of the buddying scumtell?

This is a good question. This one is difficult for me to answer... I suppose defending someone for reasons I don't understand, not being able to admit their faults... etc. that's generally when I see buddying. I've only ever suspected a few people of buddying, but I've yet to be wrong ...

I'm much more suspicious of bussing and distancing. I have been wrong on those accounts, but I've been right more often.

So yeah, that's how I see things.

[Pulindar]

It's strange, he was a fan of yours

ooo really? now I'm curious.... who?
I can't think of that many people who could be called fans of me... and even fewer ICs... hmm ... I wonder. Now I won't be able to stop thinking about this.

What is the expected advantage of announcing a town read on a player for reasons you prefer not to discuss? I basically feel that you cited meta here to add credence to a gut read.

to mention that it's there. If It's needed I'll bring it up, but I'm hoping it won't be needed... you see?

I'm willing to see the (alleged) fruits of his "method" before I do anything specific. I don't think that voting him now (I think this is what you're asking about) will give me any more information at this present time.

hehe no. I meant are you going to follow it up with questions and such. For instance I'm following up on a few things with Thor. We're talking it out etc. Once it's done being talked about I'm going to go back and go over everything and then choose more points to push

IMO you are saying that you have a towntell that you purposely use when you are scum, and when you are town. That is very anti-town. It is your job as scum to blend in your town game, but not as town to blend in something tha twill help your scum game. So why, when you are town, trying to blend your scum and town game, and purposely dropping tells that will only help your scum game? This will only cause confusion, on your true alignment, and it will hurt the town. fos

Quite simply, because you're basis is wrong. My scum game will help my town game. I see I must explain. If you look at my past games you would see that I defend as town and attack as scum. Either way I survive and I use similar arguments.

As town though I could never convince anyone to lynch who I thought was scum because I was not willing to take a stance and make an attack. It was because I was never certain enough. Now I have decided that I didn't need to be absolutely certain before going after someone, because by going after them I could find out for sure. (that I got from my scum game by seeing town's reaction to my pressure and seeing my partner's reaction to town pressure.)

For my scum game I learned that I needed to defend. Suffice it to say after I learned this I began using both attacks and defenses as both scum and town (mostly in ongoing games and I learned quite recently.)

Before Nacho could tell my alignment based entirely on what I responded to. I used to be very selective about what I was responding to, as town I took a defensive stance, as scum and offensive. I've learned to respond to everything (it's the only thing that stops me from being selective) by using my scum stuff I really can scum hunt, and by using my town stuff I survive. (though scum hunting was often seen as enough to survive in the past)

So just because someone places out, even in a suspicious spot, does not mean that they are scum. I am glad that Sb is no longer using it as part of his case.

QFT

Questions one, two, three, and four, I refuse to comment on. Looking for partners before the lynch of scum is nothing, but setting up lynches. That is anti-town. I would be nothing better than Sb in the fact that I have my lynches set, but still want the day to go on. It causes the day to stagnate, as well as muddying the waters. If you want to ask what I think of other players, I would be happy to obliged

As for the contradiction, he wants to lynch Sauron, yet wants the day to continue. Obviously he can't have both now.

Ah I understand now. Thank you for reexplaining. Well, I already had to relook at it *laughs* I guess I need to look at it under that light as well.

What is your opinion of the logical fallacy 'appeal to experience'?

I've heard of it, and seen it in full action in another VRK game actually. My first game an IC bussed his partner really hard and alot of people suspected him of bussing because he did it so hard. His claim was that as IC he would not have been allowed to buss that hard. He flipped scum obviously. But he still appealed to experience saying it was something he would not be allowed to do/would not do to newer players. It was very very underhanded, and was a big part of what stalled me from voting (I voted 20 minutes after deadline in LyLo and lost us the game) I voted in the right direction though. My first newbie game.

Other than that, I have seen players take over as town because they were experienced and make it seem like their town hunting was the only possible way... eh i see that as well. I'd suspect Thor most of doing it, but his hunting seems legit. (then again that's always the goal ) I don't think anyone has really done this though.

If this is not what you meant then just let me know.......

. I know accidental quicklynches seem like a silly thing to be afraid of, but you should see D1 on 903. It was scary!

Believe me, I've seen my fair share.

BTW Read the vote thing. I forgot my vote was on Die *facepalm*

Unvote
Vote Jerako

L-4

Wow, no one has voted AV at all... interesting.

As for the last question- yes I still do. I have given what I think it means, he countered. His counter has not changed my opinion of what I believe it means. In fact, his counter sounds like the original quote in question. What is your take on post 182? Am I assuming to many things? Perhaps you can explain what he meant by it. The reason I am asking you, is because it is like having someone else read over a paper and they help to sort out the confusing parts. I cannot ask him, because he already tried to counter and it still sounds the same.

Understandable, let me read the rest of this post, and then I will go over that. Eh... let me move this to the bottom of this post.
Eh.. Reading through it seems that you guys clarified it with each other. If you still want my opinion I'll give it, but it seems like SB clarified himself to your satisfaction (not saying you think he's not scummy, merely that he seems fine with your interpretation and is no longer saying your misreping him.)

[Pulindar]

Hey guys, I'm sorry but I'm having a bit of trouble getting on. Some work and papers and such popped up a bit too heavily for me I

Should

be able to do a good update tomorrow. Sorry.

Ugh lots of wall posts to respond to too... ok tomorrow I should be able to get to it.