Mini 964: Another Story - Over!

[VibeBox]

/Confirm.

[VibeBox]

/confirm

So, how's things? I'd just to like everyone, how much experience do you have with mafia? I've personally played about 3-4 games offsite and this is my third on-site.
Also, hey Deer, how's it going?

I haven't played in almost 2 years now I think. Before that I would guess I played around 10-15 games. (Dozens if Scumchat games count)

[VibeBox]

Vote: Dr.Cyanide

Just like a doctor to make us wait.

[VibeBox]

Vote: Yabba

- Answerring the questions and then saying what you said about the questioner seems scummy to me.

To me it seems like the better scum play is simply to answer them and say nothing else, so as not to draw attention. The more time Town spends on idle chat, the better for Scum.

It seems like you
1. Don't want to seem scummy by not answering the questions.
2. Want to gain brownie points by attacking the questioner.

This feels like a trap. If he hadn't answered and criticized he probably would have been met with a bunch of "Why don't you want to give info. Anti-Town!".
I'm not saying your suggestion isn't possible, I just disagree.

And though they're not really that scummy, you're post seems like you're preoccupied by them.

What else was there to be focused on, given the game hadn't even started yet.
Frankly the questions annoyed me because they were posted while we were still technically in confirmation phase, and they have now blurred the line of what should and shouldn't be viewed with an "in-game" context.

Everyone (other than Elias) : Why didfn't you comment on Elias' serious vote before random voting?

Because it felt like a relatively inconsequential, if somewhat overzealous, attempt to bypass the random stage.

[VibeBox]

Just answering your points.

Going under the radar probably won't end up finally winning. Its best to try for pro-town points.

Possibly. But only scum would have thought about that. Town would just do what they want.

Most players didn't think about how best to look town.

I see your points on all accounts here, but feel they could just as easily be playstyle as opposed to scummyness.

I have a question for you though. Why have you singled out Cyanide's OMGUS vote as being worthy of mention, but not any of the random votes immediately before and after it?

[VibeBox]

He was being delibarately stupid and ridiculous. That's different from making a RV with a comment.

How exactly is this:

Vote: Deer

'cause 'It's hunting season. Scum-hunting season.'

Yar.

Any more "stupid and ridiculous" than this:

Vote: Dr.Cyanide

Just like a doctor to make us wait.

Or this:

Vote: Cuetlachti

because that is not a name I want to spell for the duration of the game.

[VibeBox]

It isn't.

This is:

Unvote. Vote: Vibebox.

Enjoy this OMGUS sandwich.

This doesn't answer my question of

how

it is any scummier.
It seems pretty obvious we were in RV mode.

I asked that (for the most part*) in order to see if I should judge his actions as those done by a silly player.

* It was part in order to judge his reaction.

Aren't we all effectively "silly players" while RVing?

[VibeBox]

I never said it was. Its uniqueness makes it noteworthy though.

No. RVing snd being sporadic are completely different.

I don't see anything particularly unique to make it stand out, but I'm willing to accept that for whatever reason you do.
I thought it was odd that you were pushing it for seemingly no reason, but I'm willing to accept a simple difference of opinion and drop it.

[VibeBox]

"Would you like this vote count?"
"This is unlike you... but sure, I'll have it."

VOTES:

Chevre

-

1

(Cuetlachti)

Cuetlachtli

-

1

(Chevre)

Deer

-

0

Dr.Cyanide

-

1

(Vibebox)

Elias_the_thief

-

1

(Thief, Deer)

Empking

-

1

(Dr. Cyanide)

Jag Johan

-

0

Red Star

-

0

sorasgoof

-

0

Thief

-

1

(Red Star)

VibeBox

-

1

(Dr. Cyanide)

yabbaguy

-

2

(Empking, elias_the_thief)

No Lynch

-

0

You'll need at least

7 votes

to get someone lynched today.

Uhm...is Cyanide really voting for two people, or is that a mistake?
Also,

Unvote

.

Whoops.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll check more thoroughly next time.

[VibeBox]

I feel I should say something just for the sake of it.

While I have not much konwledge. I think Yabbaguy feels genuine and that Red stars question could be a scummy thing to make an impression of doing good for the town. But probably Red just wanted us to get started talking. The info from the questions are not that useful.

Empking seems overaggressive and reacting to trivial things. He is the most scummy right now.

One thing I really hate is when people say things "just to say something".
Something I hate even more though is when someone drops into a thread and posts a brief summary of their "reads" while adding nothing new to the discussion.
This post reads as empty parroting to me, which is a good way to post and look involved without saying anything.

I don't want to vote, coz I don't have enough on you yet.

So you vaguely suspect him, but don't ask any questions to get more info?

Vote: Jag Johan

[VibeBox]

Unvote:
Vote: yabbaguy

I don't like his "huh" reaction to the pressure vote. I've had people pressure vote me when I'm town, and my response is generally, "that's useless since you label it as a pressure vote." Or something. "Huh" seems really unnatural and forced to me.

The observation "XXX felt forced" is a weak, vague comment that tends to make me uncomfortable.
Do you have any other reason to feel that yabbaguy is scum, or is that your only reason for voting him at this point?

[VibeBox]

Every day that goes by with 0-3 posts is a victory for scum. Even if you have nothing to contribute just ask a random player a question about something. Question a vote. Vote for someone yourself. Do something!

[VibeBox]

That's all I had, now I have his latest post:


Frustrated at the attacks on him, and unsure of how to defend himself. Why don't you just focus on finding scum instead of focusing on your own defense yabba?

You're advising him not to try to mount a defense? This posts feels like an attempt to further frustrate him, as opposed to actually argue against him.
Current vote stands, but

FOS: Thief

.
I'll be going back over your posts now.

[VibeBox]

How's that ISO coming?

ISO? (Sorry, I'm a recently returned player)

Nice twist, I never told him not to mount a defense. I said he should focus on scumhunting and not

solely

on his own defense that he seems so worried about.

Frustrated at the attacks on him, and unsure of how to defend himself. Why don't you

just

focus on finding scum instead of focusing on your own defense yabba?

Emphasis Added.
This gave it the tone of saying he shouldn't be spending any time on defense to me.

I also don't see what about my post was provocative enough to frustrate.

If this post were directed at me,

I

certainly would have been frustrated. You claim justification for your vote without presenting any real argument against him, thus putting him further into a position of being under attack, with nothing to really argue against.

Good to see realityfan post a good post. Maybe this will give the game more energy.

unvote

vote: Redstar

Starts of with some question and then not much. I'm ok with voting out sorasgoof too because of CoD-thing.

You're really not giving me any reasons not to keep voting you here.
Claiming you'd be happy with a no-info lynch of Sorasgoof based on lack of posts right after he claimed he was going to reread and get involved?
This strikes me as more semi-random posting that adds nothing.
Add that to the fact that you chose to switch your vote right after RealityFan accused you of wagon hopping, and I can't say I'm comfortable with you just now.

Also, welcome RealityFan, and thank you for replacing! : -)

[VibeBox]

ISOlation = the drop down menus All Posts, All users, Oldest First. Set all users to a playername to view just their posts.

What a wonderful feature! : -)
Thanks for filling me in.

[VibeBox]

EBWODP
More importantly if you (Thief) were inquiring after some sort of PBPA, I meant "I'll be going over your posts" more as a means to "put you on notice" that I was going to pay more attention to you now. I suppose an IGMEOY would have been more fitting.
Apologies, I'm still sort of getting back into the swing of using Mafia Jargon. (Doesn't help that it differs some from site to site)

[VibeBox]

Everyone (other than RS): Summiest player out of me or Jag?

While I don't exactly have you pegged as "likely Town" right now, I think I've made it quite clear how I feel about Jag, and my vote remains on him for now.

RE: My (10)

The observation "XXX felt forced" is a weak, vague comment that tends to make me uncomfortable.
Do you have any other reason to feel that yabbaguy is scum, or is that your only reason for voting him at this point?

While the thought of this being hypocritical did actually cross my mind as I was previewing, I believe there is a distinction. Even a precise, forceful accusation or comment could be said to "feel forced". "Forced" is an issue of tone and appearances. I am concerned in this case with substance and motive. More importantly I backed up my accusation with follow up inquiry, the lack of which was one of my biggest concerns in this matter.

As for "Zigzagging", I am willing to look erratic in the early game by chasing shallow leads if I believe it will help generate discussion.

Nice Wall'O'Text though! I'll go over it a bit more later in the day, check your work, and try to comment more on it by tonight.

[VibeBox]

EBWODP

It would be a great treat for me if EVERYONE were to respond, at least in some way, to RS's assessments. We could nearly double the amount of relevant posts in the next 48 hours if this were to happen (, sadly).

[VibeBox]

EBWODP

It would be a great treat for me if EVERYONE were to respond, at least in some way, to RS's assessments. We could nearly double the amount of relevant posts in the next 48 hours if this were to happen (, sadly).

[VibeBox]

A couple of comments after going through all your ISOs, RS.

Chevre

0- Fluff
1- RV Cuetlachti
2:3- Fluff
4- Asks where Empking has gone
5- Doesn't like case against Thief

Odd that his only contribution to the game, questioning your self-labeled "pressure vote" in (2) & (4), is not even mentioned.
But yeah, has basically posted nothing.

Deer
6- Fluff

In (6), your "pressure vote" is again questioned, and you label fluff.

Empking
8- Tries to defend something no-one was questioning

(8): I was questioning it actually. We had just had an exchange about it. The post does strike me as odd and defensive, but it wasn't as out of the blue as you imply.

RS, what would you say is Empking's scummiest post

besides

the "Wagon Jag" post?

@Chevre:

How do you feel about Realityfan? Where would you put him on a 1-10 Scummy Scale, and why?

@Jag:

Do you agree with RS's read on EmpKing? If not, why not?

[VibeBox]

Unvote

Frankly I was so frustrated with the lack of activity in this game it was hard for me to even want to come to the thread, let alone post.

With what is looking to be a mass-replace as well as prodding I'm willing to essentially start over though. I'll go through the posts of people who will remain, reread the last couple of pages, then try to get active again.

[VibeBox]

MrSandMan: When looking over the thread, what would you say struck you as the most interesting post in the game? (Made by a still active player preferably)

[VibeBox]

MrSandMan: When looking over the thread, what would you say was the most interesting post you saw made by a player still currently in the game?

[VibeBox]

I'd be fine with a Thief Lynch at deadline, but other than that I don't know/would rather not say.

[VibeBox]

I can definitely get behind a

Vote: Thief

!

Would there really be SK in a game this size?

[VibeBox]

To be fair, I tried to get a Wagon on Thief Day 1 as well, so at least I'm being consistent in my shameless wagoning.

I'd be pro-claiming with a game state as fucked up and hard to care about as this.

@Pie: Please provide some specific examples of what you feel are my scummy interactions with Redstar.

[VibeBox]

-Decently-sized scum read on Vibebox. I have two independent points here, both of which hinge partially on his admission of being experienced. The first is minor, and it has to do with his "Let's Contribute More!" cheerleading posts. They come across to me as forced and telling the town what they want to hear without, y'know, contributing more himself.

I knew full well when I was posting them that they might look like that, but there was just nothing to discuss at the time.

The second is bigger, and it's that I've noticed significant buddying with Red Star. He doesn't start seriously attacking Jag until Jag goes after RS (and he revives his attack a bit when Jag later speaks ill of RS again). He also spends a decent amount of time entertaining RS's question string and meaningless ISO. One of the first things I thought upon reading RedStar was that he's your standard Logical Rampage type player, and if I were scum it would be very easy to get on his good side by entertaining his contributions and letting him play the role of Town Captain. I see VibeBox doing exactly that.

When I asked for specifics this is what I meant. Pleas provide a string of posts in which you see the pattern of me "defending" RS from Jag.
As for spending an inordinate amount of time discussing RS's content, well there really hasn't been much to discuss, so it makes sense that I would linger on any real content.
Also, for my re-integration purposes can you explain exactly what you mean by "Logical Rampage Player"?

Vote: Chevre

I just got put L-1 in one page.

Let's step back and use our fucking heads first.

Also I'm not claiming unless we massclaim.

Sorry, I meant

Unvote:
Vote: VibeBox

Though Chevre's L-1 vote was terrible.

This feels like you wanted to take an easy OMGUS for Chevre's awful vote, but then realized it was more beneficial to you to follow Pie's vote and try to pass it off as the same reason. You even aknowlege it was a blatant wagon vote and try to ward people off of holding it against you with non-logic.
Refusing to claim, or even be first to claim in a Mass is just dumb no matter how you look at it.

I should probably go back with the people that were setting up my D2 lynch. But if memory serves I thought derailing the SSBF wagon was the main point against me, but he didn't flip scum so now its the fact that I buddied with Pie and went for a lynch to help jumpstart this game.

Please provide quote of instances when either of these was the main point against you. Feels like Strawman.
Every time you post I feel better and better about Lynching you

Okay... so are you saying we're just trying to reduce the probability of a mislynch? This instantly falls flat

if scum fakeclaims.

I agree, the game becomes very dangerous for Town if a mislynch occurs today, but at the same time, you have to think ahead. I really don't want to be in LyLo with investigation roles out of the game and likely the town they confirmed gone with them.

Emphasis Added in Bold.
What else would they do? This sounds like a half baked argument against MassClaim.

@Azelf: I like the "L-X" system, but I think the one Unsight suggested looks cleaner.

[VibeBox]

Vibe, frankly, you haven't been helping much with the fact. Feeling sorry for yourself isn't an excuse.

Please restructure whatever points you were trying to make here in such a way that the sentences are actually coherent.

[VibeBox]

I'll address the rest of your post tomorrow or Thursday, but for now,

Unvote

.

Why would you put Thief at L-1 again, giving him the option as Scum to self-hammer and end discussion? Especially after we just commented on how poor a play it was from someone else?

[VibeBox]

I'm confused. Wouldn't that be a good thing?

It would be for scum. It would end all discussion and prevent the Town from gaining further information from the Day.

RE: My "unconvincing defense". The only real defense to be made for the post is the context in which it was made. However since you weren't around for the grating Stagnation of Day 1, and have now sold yourself on a pattern of scummy activity from me, I see no way to convince you that I was doing anything but making an earnest plea for activity.

My question for you is: did you really, at the time, think Red Star's ISOs had serious strategic value? If so, why? If not, why did you respond the way you did?

Not really, no. Frankly I thought it was sloppy and poorly presented. I discussed it as seriously as I did because I was hoping that by discussing it heavily, and getting others to do so I could get a nearly universally abandoned game going, and possibly generate discussion of real value.

To be clear, my underlying accusation here is that VibeBox, as scum, saw RedStar's posting as an opportunity to get on RedStar's good side and appear to the town at large to be contributing without actually doing so. I think a reading of VibeBox's posting as genuine - i.e., that he really thought RedStar was adding some good content - is inconsistent with his claims of experience.

While I am experienced, I was also clear that I am just coming back to the game, and am probably quite rusty. My experience told me that stagnant games were deadly for Town, and even discussion of little value was better than nothing. I think there is ample evidence of this mindset in my pointed questions to RS, and attempts to get others to respond in any way.

Edit While Posting: God Damn It! I could not have asked for a worse game to be the one I return to MS for. Even the replacements need replacements. Seriously, fuck this game.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

[VibeBox]

I've been gone. RL happens. When I tried to check in the forums were down.

Anyway, Im vanilla Town with my awesome special attacks "Discuss" and "Vote". I'll re-read what I've missed and try to care about this game enough to choose someone to claim next.

@ Pie: While I will certainly be going back over my Day 1 play and trying to evaluate if it was indeed a play mistake, I feel I made a reasonable choice at the time, and did what I thought was best for the Town.
To be honest though, now it's starting to feel like you've just latched on and want me lynched no matter what. Especially since you keep referencing my reaction to RS's PBP in such a way as to frame it as a ringing endorsement. It's not like I rambled on about what a good poster he was, and asking everyone to respond to it does not equal supporting its findings.