Newbie 922: Day 3

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, I'm an SE in this game; just finished my readthrough. Here's a few comments...

1) Posting is important. Sometimes when you log in and check the game, you find yourself drowning in posts and you really don't want to read any of them, and you really don't have anything new to add to the game. In that case, press ctrl+F and search for your name and respond to anything that's directed to you. If there's nothing to respond to, ask a question about something you don't understand or something that seems off to you, even if you're not sure about it. The key is simply to post and stay active, so we don't get you confused with lurking scum.

2) Never ever ever self-hammer. Whether you're scum or town, it's always a bad move. Defending yourself until the end will give your scumbuddies time to divert the lynch or gain town cred for hammering you, or, if you're town, it will help town find the scum; it might even divert the lynch on you!

3) Always claim before you're lynched; in a newbie game, you shouldn't claim vanilla townie when you're a power role. Determining when to claim is extremely difficult, so a rule of thumb here is claiming when you're at L-1. However, if you divert the lynch without claiming, it's highly recommended doing so. Claiming either outs a power role, or helps scum find one.

On to the game-related stuff... Right now, I'm focusing on the group of RayFrost, Panacea, BridgesAndBalloons, and Lawls, due to the Panacea bandwagon. I have a feeling we can find at least one scum in that block because of 1) How quickly the bandwagon was formed, and 2) How quickly the bandwagon disappated.

I didn't like Balloon's original vote on Panacea; I'm not a firm believer in reaction hunting that early in the game. That being said, most of his other posts are solid, and there's really not a whole lot about him that I have found scummy up until this point.

I like ed's posting coming into the game; I like Ray's considerably less. I'm still unsure what the purpose of the havingfitz quote was, so could I have clarification on that? His complete derailing of the Panacea wagon is a bit odd. What gave you the confidence that Panacea's carefulness WASN'T to avoid stepping on any toes? What was scummy about edprata's vote?

Panacea's Day 1 activity is amazing; I love her for it. I have absolutely no intentions of lynching her Day 1; it's never a good idea to take out someone who as active as her early in the game because it's fairly easy to get a read on her later in the game (it looks odd when she doesn't interact with other people, she voices a lot more opinions thus better read, etc...). That being said, her walls of text make for a big shield for the scum to hide behind; watch out for those who are posting just enough to avoid being prodded. I'll talk about why she might be scum after RayFrost answers his questions like a good boy.

Lawls: It's hard for me to develop a read on Lawls, but I do like his aggressive playstyle. A wild guess says he's not used to book-length posts from his experience on other sites, so I tell him this: the more you post, the shorter your posts get to be .
Null read for now.

So... starting with a

Vote: RayFrost

.

[Nachomamma8]

edprata's vote was highly opportunistic and the reasoning was flimsy, IIRC.

And what would give you that opinion? At that point in time, the game was a grand total of one page long. Why would you expect reasoning better than what ed presented?

I've played with pan-town and seen pan-scum, so I can tell the difference between pan-scum carefulness and pan-town carefulness. For one, she's self-conscious as town. She's worried about every little mistake as if it would cause her to be struck down by a modkill... >.>"

Point taken. But she really only has one completed game as scum, and the difference in meta is so painfully obvious that I'm pretty sure she's picked up on it by now. And didn't the concern about L-3 seem a little too careful, even for her?

[Nachomamma8]

Any suggestions for scum-hunting when a person has no (or few) other games?

The best place to start is with your gut. Read a little bit into the game, and pick someone who seems scummy to you. Then, go down to the bottom where it says "Display posts from previous", and choose your suspect's name in the list you get by clicking the triangle in the "All users" section; that'll bring up all of their posts in the game. Then, check for any classical Wiki scumtells. Finally, read their posts and ask yourself "If I were scum, would I make a post like this? Why/why not?".

Is it possible for someone to have radically different play styles, even for the same roles, to defeat this kind of analysis? In other words, just how useful is this type of play, as opposed to play based solely on in-game content?

Meta is only effective when the person you're meta'ing isn't aware of it. Once they are, it's not difficult at all to switch up your style (heh, take my play for example. I'm pretty sure this is the only time I've actually been semi-helpful in a game...). In-game content is where the good stuff is at; meta should only truly be used as a starting point until you have strong reads on people.

[Nachomamma8]

Though I concede the flimsy reasoning point. (I find it kinda funny that you are defending my predecessor's actions while still attacking me, so I'm actually attacking myself, which is just lulzy).

Erm, that's actually a really good point. I'm attacking you while defending your predecessor while you're attacking your predecessor and defending yourself? [/mind].

Unvote

, for now, until I at least understand my own case on you...

The L-3 thing didn't really bug me at all (hardly even noticed it), so I doubt it's much (I've got a good instinct about all things insane).

I think it's worth note-worthy, though. Although the fact that she's been keeping to her town meta so far, you have to understand that she is aware of it now, so it might be overcompensation.

BaB, who's scum?

... It is? You mean how Acosmist says I'm scattershot scum with Dadaist ramblings and Ray says I'm basket-case town?

Exactly, you got it

Can you direct me to examples of aggressiveness on his part?

Well there aren't a whole lot of examples, but ISOs 0, 1, and 9 are good places to look. I find it odd to see this aggression couple with his ISO 4, where he gives himself a 3/10 at MafiaScum. Normally, aggressive players are anything but modest.

My vote on him stands while I gather more information.

At the moment, how are you gathering information? You're not really interacting with Lawls a whole lot, at the moment. Are you expecting others to do your scumhunting for you?

Nacho: I am glad you are here and dissecting that Panacea bandwagon debacle.

It's always nice to be appreciated.

Lawls, a few questions:
What do you think of a Cojin lynch? Would you be on the lynchwagon? Why/why not?
Which of the players in this game would you not want to be in LyLo with?
What player do you find yourself agreeing with the most?
Why shouldn't we lynch you right now?

[Nachomamma8]

Acosmist, a word of advice. Curb the walls of text a little bit because you are making some pretty good points right now, and people tend to ignore posts that are longer than their screen. Also, always attribute quotes to people. It makes reading easier.

But while you're on the phone... I'm curious about your vote on Rayfrost. You said earlier that you don't like reaction hunting early game (i have no idea why not, since reactions to early wagons really are the only way to find scum) so you aren't reaction hunting. You have genuine reasons to suspect Rayfrost. This really isn't a question, I guess.

First, let me define what I view as reaction hunting. To me, reaction hunting is doing something that could be view as anti-town, or voting or accusing without justification. As for my reasons of suspecting Ray, it was mainly due to his incredible confidence that Panacea was town; he didn't lend any thought at all to Panacea being scum, which I found odd.

Top two suspects are BaB and RayFrost.

[Nachomamma8]

There are really only 2 problems I have with the TownPan case. 1) You cleared her mostly based on either past experiences with her (which we have to take your word for), or based on the weakness of a case so early in the game, and 2) You offered no new suspects as replacements. You haven't even voted anyone this whole game; you've only unvoted. You've been far more aggressive in derailing a wagon than you have creating one, and everyone knows it's easier for scum to defend than attack...

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry, I didn't know the # of votes on cojin, so I didn't vote him.

But the Cojin case didn't arrive until waaay after you killed the Pan wagon, and you didn't really do a whole lot to offer any substitute suspects before then.

Nacho's sentence is interesting because he suspected two people, Rayfrost and Me, who I don't remember him voicing suspicion on before. We're also two people that little suspicion has been cast on in-thread.

Read closer. My first post stated that I was going to focus on 4 people for Day 1 (Ray, you, Pan, and Lawls). My suspicion of Ray has definitely been stated in thread (ISO 0, 1, 3), and my suspicion of you is due to a process of elimination.

@Acosmist: I'm not sure you understand me when I say the TownPan case. I'm referring to Ray's specific case in ISO 5, not the case for Pan being town in general.

Do people see that lurking as scummy or just as a bad habit to be discouraged with pressure?

Depends on the type of lurking. EF's doesn't bother me at all because he's posting consistently, and he's posting content when he posts (usually). Later in the game, my mind may change about that but I hope that when there is more to talk about, he'll have more to say.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Elementary Fermion

[Nachomamma8]

First off, that huge post when real suspicion was put on him. No pressure had been put on him beforehand, and the post seemed way out of character for him.

Second of all, this.

Is frustrated the same as bored stiff?

Woah. EF gives me the vibe that he's cautious with his voting, so when he says he's bored in the same post he believes he's pegged a scum, that sets my scumdar a-dinging. Also, it's inconsistent with the tone of his post; if he was town, he would be angry at you for trying to get him, an innocent townie, killed. He would be angry, but definitely not "bored stiff".

[Nachomamma8]

So you are "meta"-ing me now? Based on the previous two weeks, I guess? Essentially I have spent two weeks saying "I don't know why everyone keeps saying nothing over and over" and asking what the point was. Having abandoned hope, I figured I'd join in.

No, I'm not meta'ing you. I'm calling you out for a sudden change in your posting style when put under a tiny bit of pressure, which is a characteristic move for panicking scum.

I specifically mentioned that I would not change my vote without a good reason.

Exactly. So, when you change your vote, one can assume you've found a good reason. And if you've found a good reason, then one could assume you've found a good reason to believe that the person whose vote you switched to was scum. And since the feeling of pegging scum is the greatest feeling in the world, one could most definitely you wouldn't be bored if you had pegged scum, unless that nonchalance was feigned.

with so little content among the chaff

If this is a complaint, then you have prods and questions and accusations to stir everything up.

I find to be boring; this doesn't change whether or not I feel that I have identified something suspicious about someone.

Then why not express suspicions? Why not accompany your suspicions with a vote?

Why did you need to wait to be asked to do so?

I like to do that sometimes. If someone just attacks a vote you've cast seemingly without any reason, there's a good chance they're scum. If you've had a town read on them for a while, and they follow your vote with little/no reasoning, you might want to rethink your town read. If they do nothing but question as Panacea did, then it's a bit of a null-tell, but it does show they're not believing that the vote is out of place.

I am sorry that I didn't make my anger even clearer.

That's not what I'm trying to say. I find it odd that anger and boredom mingle in the same post for you.

[Nachomamma8]

Thank you for answering this question; it broadens my understanding of others' approaches to this game.

Glad to be useful for a change.

But I didn't try to get him killed.

That's not the important part. The important part is what

he

thought, no?

I find any votes on EF to be rather opportunistic (lookin' at you nacho), as I don't find disliking mafia / being obscenely rude to be a scumtell.

Opportunistic how?

[Nachomamma8]

Opportunistic in that it gives a rather easy smokescreen to attack somebody without actually having solid backing behind it. smoke and mirrors, nacho, smoke and mirrors.

Do you disagree with my points on him, then?

I actually find/found your vote on me to be more solid and to have more backing than your vote on RF, which makes the change seem like an attempt to jump onto a wave before it actually gets going.

Different votes suit different purposes. I found the way EF responded to a little pressure odd, so I applied a little more.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote first, pretext later, right?

I like to do that sometimes. If someone just attacks a vote you've cast seemingly without any reason, there's a good chance they're scum. If you've had a town read on them for a while, and they follow your vote with little/no reasoning, you might want to rethink your town read. If they do nothing but question as Panacea did, then it's a bit of a null-tell, but it does show they're not believing that the vote is out of place.

Angry like:

That?

So, when you change your vote, one can assume you've found a good reason. And if you've found a good reason, then one could assume you've found a good reason to believe that the person whose vote you switched to was scum. And since the feeling of pegging scum is the greatest feeling in the world, one could most definitely you wouldn't be bored if you had pegged scum, unless that nonchalance was feigned.

If you need clarification, I can provide it.

Waiting eagerly for some Ray/B

[Nachomamma8]

Waiting eagerly for some Ray/BaB responses.**

And Lawls, this isn't a game for everyone. So, if you truly don't want to play, I urge replacing out as opposed to hurting whatever alignment you're playing for...

[Nachomamma8]

Playing private games to try to fool scum runs afoul of my contract bridge comments long, long ago (in this galaxy).

I have no idea what this means.

"My pretextual vote was a scumhunting strategy!"

Attacking something you don't understand? Not something I'd expect from a philosopher.

EF was angry and his post showed that. Boredom and anger are not mutually exclusive emotions.

See, here's where we disagree. I can't recall a time where I've been both angry and bored at the same time; anger puts adrenaline through the body and thus makes you... not bored. Also, I've never been bored when I've believed I've pegged scum. But then again, this really isn't a point I can convince you of, it seems. But then again, these are my experiences and feelings being transferred onto EF...

I'm pretty sure he threw suspicion at RayFrost and wasn't even entirely clear why he was doing that.

Actually, I looked back and saw how petty the argument was getting, so I dropped it. The case is looking good to my eyes, but there's no one here to defend it.

Definitely the lurkers' fault. . . . I quite honestly do not regard it as my fault if people get lost among the walls. The relevance of all this discussion to any one person is manageable, and there are ways to find the relevant parts that don't involve reading the entire post.

And, well, if lurkers use the walls as an excuse, we should investigate sinister motivations for that.

This is an extremely scummy post. It doesn't matter whose fault it is that it's being made easier to lurk; the simple fact are that walls of text promote lurking and make it a lot easier for scum to lurk and make it a lot more difficult to determine the difference between town and scum lurkers. Honestly? It'll be extremely hard to find replacements for this game because of how long your posts are, and as a townie, that isn't playing to your win condition.

Right now, my top two suspects are missing, and I can tell my EF case is not being understood, or perhaps it's just not as big of a deal to you all as it is to me. Either way, fitz is right that having a lynch is important at this stage, so

Unvote, Vote: Cojin

.

In terms of activity, Cojin is the weakest link. He also hasn't said anything that I feel has benefitted the town in any significant way.

[Nachomamma8]

Following up right now because this is so pathetic (Panacea please read this and see if you still agree with him) - the biggest lurkers in this thread have been Cojin and Lawls...and they're the subject of most of the attention!

Lawls is no longer a lurker; he's being replaced. RayFrost and BaB have also been lurking lately, but they've barely been the subject of any attention whatsoever that hasn't been supplied by me. And saying that Cojin and Lawls have been the subject of most of the attention is... laughable. Cojin's attention consists of someone who hasn't posted about him since last week and a giant wall-battle that should've been dropped a long time ago. The attention on Lawls consists of himself, a lurker, and someone whose walls generally have nothing to do with him anyways. The town is spread so thin because of walls of texts and people generally ignoring any case that isn't there own that the people under the most attention are under no pressure whatsoever.

Why do you hate when I post?

I don't hate when you post; you present some good points when you're more worried about who's scum as opposed to who's right. You just need to cut out some of the useless stuff and stop nitpicking over every little point; focus on major aspects of the case and present them to the public; note down tiny scumtells and keep them to thyself.

[Nachomamma8]

Mod, can we have a 72-hour deadline extension while we look for a Lawls replacement, since he DOES have one of the largest bandwagons on him right now?

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote

While there is the off chance that Cojin is being sneaky and incredibly manipulative, I'm not buying it.

Vote: BridgesAndBalloons

I'll give my reasoning when you give yours. We need a good lynch wagon on scum to start, and you're my top suspect. <3

[Nachomamma8]

Let's see:

The people on your wagon were: (Havingfitz, RayFrost, Nachomamma8, Lawls), when your wagon was the greatest. Unless of course, the votecount in post 300 was wrong...

[Nachomamma8]

Pay attention to the game you are playing.

Congratulations, you haven't clarified the situation for me in any way whatsoever! I DON'T know what private game you're accusing me for playing, and I DON'T know what the phrase "contract bridge comments" means.

I'll try to make this easier to understand. When you do something scummy, you don't get to absolve yourself of responsibility by saying "I meant to do that."

...
...
...
You still don't understand... and you're still being condensending...

You've pointed to a scumhunting technique I've explained, and called it scumnmy. You didn't, however, explain why it was scummy. You didn't, however, explain why my explanation is bad. You didn't, however, ask me for clarification on how it could be effective.

All right, I guess I have to take your word for it, because I can't honestly know whether you think you have a good case or not. At least in public, you admitted you weren't sure what you had against him.

I thought the joke was implied with the whole "[/mind]" deal. Guess I was wrong. That whole thing was brought up to show just how nitpicky the debate was getting...

Lurking is scummy.
Lawls was lurking.
Therefore, etc.

Note: Lurking isn't scummy. Rather, it's anti-town. Lurking to the extent of being replaced is a null-tell because it shows that you just aren't that invested in the game, which is something that happens to mafia and to town. ACTIVE lurking, however, is scummy.

Yeah, but they had lots of content earlier

Oh, yeah.

Tons

of relevant, helpful content that pressured scum and encouraged discussion and made sure that those rascally lurkers didn't get inbetween the cracks...

"dropping" the discussion of havingfitz's case against him is the last thing we should do.

Okay, but it certainly isn't the first thing we should do. Rather, we should involve him in the discussion and pressure him instead of having a catfight with one another. How do you expect to determine someone's alignment if you never let them defend for yourself? Or rather, let me correct myself. How are we supposed to determine someone's alignment if they can't speak for themselves without being crushed by your skyscraper-sized walls?

You haven't been reading my posts.

...or you aren't reading your own:

How much of my walls addressed Lawls anyway? Very little, and a little find command on his name would have disclosed to him the questions and issues surrounding him.

The town needs to get the sand out of its vagina, then.

If only it was that easy. But with 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch, not 1 Acosmist . You can peg scum in your first two posts, but nobody takes the time to read your posts, guess who's only going to succeed in getting NK'ed by scum Night 1?

I don't know if you know this, but scum generally try to drum up fallacious cases.

Being wrong =/= being scum. And why would scum try to drum up fallacious cases when the townies are already ripping each other apart?

If arguing with havingfitz helps me determine that, I'm gonna continue to do it.

The more you fight with him, the more muddled it becomes, and the more you both just look like 12 year olds to the rest of us. I don't know about you, but my win condition is to get the mafia lynched, not to figure out who the mafia are. In other words, it's all good and well if you know HF's alignment 20 pages of wall battle later, but you sure as hell aren't going to convince any of us about it.

I have no idea what possible pro-town reason there could be to keep scumtells to oneself.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you don't have to quote every. tiny. point. that someone presents and respond to it unless they all have something significant to them.


Sorry in advance... I'm sick and tired and in a wee bit of a bad mood. Thus, I may be a bit more blunt than usual... But I figured if I might as well post something before I went to bed. Enjoy!

[Nachomamma8]

I think we have 12 hours and nothing is happening :/

Deadline is the 24th.

[Nachomamma8]

Mod, can we have a 72-hour deadline extension while we look for a Lawls replacement, since he DOES have one of the largest bandwagons on him right now?

This is reasonable. Deadline is extended to March 24.

No, but he did say this...

[Nachomamma8]

Mod, can we have a 72-hour deadline extension while we look for a Lawls replacement, since he DOES have one of the largest bandwagons on him right now?

This is reasonable. Deadline is extended to March 24.

No, but he did say this...

I wasn't 100% confident that he was going to maintain the extended deadline now that things with Lawls changed. So you didn't get any special word from him, and you're just basing it on that?

Same to EF. Why are people just assuming day won't end in an hour? That's ballsy, I guess.

Because the mod never told us otherwise? He didn't say "Deadline extension revoked, Lawls is back"...

Anyways,

Mod: can we get a prod on BaB?

[Nachomamma8]

Pan, stop sucking up to the mod >.>

Cojin, you're acting... weird. Freaking out and claiming PR when you're at L-2 and no one really wants to lynch you isn't TownCojin play...

I mean, I just read Newbie 908, where you pegged two scum in two days after a successful Doc protect; the only thing that messed up your game was vanilla fakeclaiming cop... The Cojin that's playing in this game definitely isn't the Cojin that's playing in that one...

Unvote, [L-1]Vote: Cojin

[Nachomamma8]

Pan, stop sucking up to the mod >.>

... It was a really fast posting of a vote count. -.- Are you familiar with the art of the compliment?

I was just messing with you, no seriousness intended

[Nachomamma8]

Will get in a post later tonight... Busy as of the moment, but I haven't forgotten deadline's imminent arrival.

[Nachomamma8]

I have two degrees, one in philosophy, one in law.

It all makes sense now! You sir, are my new hero.

*sigh* I hate this. Right now, it would be optimum for a cop claim. BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE ACTIVITY FOR IT BECAUSE RF + BaB ARE LURKING!!!! Ugh.

Vote: Lawls

I hate this lynch, but it's all that's going to get through and Lawls lynch > No lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

RE: The cop claim post:

It was my intention to have a mass claim, but I wasn't looking for an individual to claim cop. I felt that if we could commit everyone to a claim NOW, and we found a cop claim, then we could force the scum to either fake counterclaim or be stuck as vanilla townies for the rest of the game, then the cop and the doc could somehow both be confirmed town. Then, I realized the only way that would work is if we lynched the maf roleblocker that day and there was a mafia roleblocker in the setup...

Now, I realize that this is absolute bullcrap and doesn't make a whole lot of sense to you, but it made waaaay more sense a little while before deadline and at 11:00 at night, okay? And if you want to hold that against me, go ahead. But I expect more of a case than that because one scumtell doesn't make a case.

Acosmist, top two scum not counting Havingfitz?

[Nachomamma8]

Cases on each?

Do you find BaB's ISO 22 scummy?
If BaB gets replaced, will you still see him as scum?
If I flip scum, does BaB look better or worse in your eyes? If better, would you no lynch over lynching him? If worse, why?
Who is most likely to be BaB's scumpartner? Who is least likely?
What has BaB done to make him more likely scum than RayFrost?

Is my ISO 14 scummy?
In your eyes, who has the highest chance of being my scumbuddy? Why?
Was my position on Lawls scummy? Why/Why not?
Do you agree with havingfitz's ISO 54? Why?
Whose scumflip would incriminate me the most?
What is the scummiest position I have taken?
Who has seemed the towniest from interactions with me?

Why I ask so many questions: Because you spent a lot of your time defending other people, and not a lot of time attacking, and the only way you're going to find scum is by attacking. I also feel sorry to say this, but I miss your long posts . The game's lost its glory without them, and the person who I felt was skimming said posts is now dead... Also, if these questions sound like rolefishing: don't answer them. Point out why you feel their rolefishing. If you don't want to answer a question, say why. The answers aren't as important as the taking positions.

@havingfitz: Is your post due to my ISO 26? If so, how did ISO 27 change your position? If not, why didn't you say anything about my scumminess in any of your previous posts?

Votecount
Nachomamma8 - 1 (havingfitz)

Not Voting - 6 (Acosmist, RayFrost, Elementary Fermion, Nachomamma8, Panacea, BridgesAndBaloons)

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

Internet was out for two days.

Ellibereth, you replaced a scum spot, and I already know you're scum.

...and we'll come back to our scheduled programming tomorrow!

[Nachomamma8]

@Elli: Out of curiosity, how are you calculating all of this? Ctrl+F & Windows Calculator?

Nacho, how does Cojin's flip reconcile with this judgment of yours Yesterday?:

I was wrong... Was there anything else you were expecting to hear there?

[Nachomamma8]

EF, stop being so sensitive. You're self-destructing... again...

[Nachomamma8]

Then you will have your proof to vote this doofus off the island. I am willing to be a martyr to show this clown for the fool he is.

However, wouldn't proof be easier garnered by attacking Elli himself?

Checking meta now. It's delicious and helpful!

[Nachomamma8]

Not much more than that, it's true. But could you, for the record, tell us exactly what you observed in the other game as opposed to this one? I have an interest in hearing it, if you've got a sec.

The Cojin in the other game voiced his opinion a lot more; he voiced more things about more suspects, and he was right most of the time. I suppose it was because he was more invested in that game than this one.

I would like to see a bit more from Nacho on Ellibereth's allegations. Whether or not he'd be, what was it? the "most informative lynch" is debateable, and I'd like to see Nacho's opinion.

I see his points in areas, but it's hard to see what he's trying to get across when he doesn't explain anything. I'm confused why he doesn't post BaB's numbers as well (so we'd have someone to compare with Ray), and I really don't see anything to defend against until he's read the game and has something for me to respond to.

Saying I'm the most informative lynch is a useless declaration because he doesn't explain what he'll get out of my lynch, town or scum. I've seen both town and scum label a player the most informative lynch, and normally they really fail to provide the information they've gained after the lynch goes through.

[Nachomamma8]

A) There's an exception to every rule. Take for example, the day 1 doc lynch in the following game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 78&start=0. Assuming scum on Lawls's lynch is improper induction.

B) It's worth it to put the wagon into context. Cojin believed Lawls was scum because he thought Lawls's replacing/not-replacing stunt was a lie. Lawls was the top suspect of Acosmist practically the entire day; however, the reasons for this weren't expanded on too much. The last three votes were tagged on so a lynch was possible.

C) Improper induction again. Neither are "blatantly" town.

D) Reads on people based on the first page are barely accurate.

[Nachomamma8]

A) But you have to give yourself room for error. VA works most of the time, and not all of the time. Now's one of those times, and if you want to use it effectively, you have to identify these times. And why did that wagon build up so fast again? Hmm...

B) Those are vote patterns, not context for vote. You know the difference.

C) No they aren't. Yes they are. No they aren't. Yes they are. No they aren't... And the fact that you don't 100% know that they're both town gives uncertainty to the VC analysis. I'd certainly trust it more if you read more of the game...

D) That doesn't mean that you'll do it this time, and recent posts + the first page certainly isn't enough for a halfway decent read.

[Nachomamma8]

There are 2 reasons I'm accepting your offer.

1) There's a great chance for a Ray-Fitz scumpair, and I'm curious if you see what I see.

2) The only way I'm going to counter a lazy response such as that is with rebuttals that are 1000+ words long, and I don't feel like typing it up. But if your reading through the game produces nothing, I'll craft a post to put Acosmist to shame.

[Nachomamma8]

Don't you owe me a reply or something?

Yeah, I do. I'll get right on that when I get back...

[Nachomamma8]

Response to your case as promised:

I didn't see the soft claim as you did; I saw a townie reaction based on another game (Ellibereth knows which one). So, the vote came off.

When doubts about the honesty of his claim got some traction (probably from havingfitz), you were willing to lynch him...

No, never willing to lynch. Willing to pressure, but not willing to lynch.

Did you have a position on Lawls?

Mhm. I was on the lynchwagon, wasn't I?



Hmm... There's more to respond to, but this is the important stuff.

[Nachomamma8]

Wouldn't Lawls have been taken over a no-lynch, Nacho, since he was the highest voted? The rules seem to say so...

Meh, good point. I guess I'm just used to games where deadline = no lynch. Anyways, I certainly wouldn't have changed my actions. I certainly wasn't going to lynch a claimed doctor, and Lawls was the closest to a lynch...

[Nachomamma8]

[quote="The Rules"
Days will have a deadline of three weeks. If the deadline is reached, the day will end without a lynch.
[/quote]
Welp, Pan was wrong instead of me.

[Nachomamma8]

--> Pan: It's been about six days since you've offered content, by the way >.>

Is it ongoing? Can I look into it?

Sure... It's called Glitch in Time, modded by Haylen, in the New York Forum. I'll link you to it if you'd like, but I'd rather not open another window just yet.

That's not willing to lynch? You even helpfully note that he's one vote from getting the rope...

Exactly. By putting right next to my vote, in bold, that he's at L-1, I force whoever was going to hammer to think up of actual reasoning to hammer a claimed doc. No accidental hammers were going to result; it'd take an idiot scum will balls of steel to hammer Cojin at that point.

Then you voted him

because deadline was approaching and you didn't want to lynch the claimed doctor

. That's your position?

Mhm.

HEY NACH, CAN YOU LINK ME TO ANY TOWN-READABLE POST YOU MADE THE WHOLE GAME. I SKIMMED YOUR ISO AND CAN'T FIND ANY.

ISO 0. The greatness ends there.

Nacho's 0 for 1 on the accuracy of his previous experience with our players (Cojin), so while I'd like to hear his feeling anyway for future reference, I won't put too much stock in it.

For future reference, you should probably read every game he's ever replaced into. It's his self-aware meta, thus, null-tell.

Nacho: if you're not the second scum, who is?

Panacea or Furry. I'll explain Pan later when I'm in a more case-making mood.

[Nachomamma8]

Funfact:

Havingfitz thinks than Pan and I are scum together.
I think that Pan and Havingfitz are scum together.
Pan thinks that Havingfitz and I are scum together.

Find the townie and win the game?

[Nachomamma8]

Cojin wasn't in that game

Hmm... How to explain... OOH

If a person is scum, then they will typically go silent/calm and nonreactive when they believe they've been lynched.
Cojin responded in a loud and angry way, therefore: Cojin is not scum.

I learned this lesson from the game I pointed you to.

If you still don't understand, I'll have to break out the crayons and construction paper.

That's bizarre. You don't get to put the penultimate vote on someone and say "Not willing to lynch!" It's self-serving to interpret that action as putting all of the responsibility for the lynch on the final voter.

Ever heard of putting pressure on people? It's like... putting scum to L-1 and seeing if someone you suspect to be their buddy hammer, or putting a lurker to L-1 and seeing if the LaL trolls will have the guts to cast the final vote.

Like lynching no one.

NONONONONOBADBADBADHERESYBLASPHEMYNONONONONONONONO

You're all over the place.

Go on...

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, you're generalizing from a single instance that didn't even involve Cojin. :muh: That explains why it was useless. There's no "typically" in one game, man.

But see, the generalizing thing worked. The specific thing was useless.

Did you and havingfitz plan this at night? I don't know why you would it's just getting you both lynched

You're saying he's not playing like TownCojin.

I'm so confused right now, and I'm sure you are too.

Your suspects keep changing and that negates something I thought I saw last week.

If you saw anything but a confused/lazy townie who has virtually nothing but a town read on himself, you're probably wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

If anyone is really interested in another wallpost by me then let me know...otherwise I'll try to hold back.

JOY! I JUST NOTICED THIS POST!

Okay, so now that you've finally stopped wallpost fighting with Acosmist, you can start answering my questions and I can start being my normal, wonderful, protown self again.

First of all, why do you have a vote on me that you haven't advanced at all? No questions or anything make you seem damn sure of my guilt.

Also, since you think Acosmist is town, you must realize that all of his scumhunting is genuine. So why the incessant barrage of Ad-Hom attacks to discount any points he provides?

Also, your scum read on Pan apparates out of nowhere. Your only real suspect of yesterday was Cojin, so I'm guessing you find Pan to be scum because... she didn't want to lynch the claimed doctor like you did?

[Nachomamma8]

*sigh* I hate this. Right now, it would be optimum for a cop claim. BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE ACTIVITY FOR IT BECAUSE RF + BaB ARE LURKING!!!! Ugh.

Vote: Lawls

I hate this lynch, but it's all that's going to get through and Lawls lynch > No lynch.

I really don't like this post. At the time this was made Lawls was at L-1 and Pan had not voted yet. You dig for a last second Cop claim and basically switch from from one L-1 wagon to another. I like the *sigh* though...it adds that extra feeling touch.

Really don't like how Nacho handled the end of D1 though.

Vote: Nacho

Right now, this is your basis for voting for me, correct? I don't see this as enough to peg me as scum, so where are all of the questions to help you solidify your read? Don't you feel yourself dropping into the same pattern as yesterday and losing all of your time to wallbattling your top top read?

As for the accusation post itself, the cop claim dig is a bit weird, I'll admit, but it isn't scummy. I don't ask for a cop claim, and I don't out any cops. As for the rest of this, what was I supposed to do? Lynch the claimed doctor, don't lynch anyone, or lynch Lawls?

[Nachomamma8]

As for the accusation post itself, the cop claim dig is a bit weird, I'll admit, but it isn't scummy. I don't ask for a cop claim, and I don't out any cops. As for the rest of this, what was I supposed to do? Lynch the claimed doctor, don't lynch anyone, or lynch Lawls?

Something you failed to answer.

[Nachomamma8]

NACHO: Earlier you mentioned something about fitz/ray team and a good reason for it and you wanted me to find it. I gave up before I started. Tell me please.

Not until havingfitz flips scum.

PS:

Vote: havingfitz

[Nachomamma8]

Limited access for the next two days or so... I look up and I see wallposts, so no post today.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho's here, and vanilla.

Now, Elli can get to explaining why I'm scum.

[Nachomamma8]

So, Acosmist. Are you going to post a case against me, or...?

[Nachomamma8]

Sure, if it actually holds compressed and convincing points put in a non-quote stripe form...

Succinctness is pro-town, you know.

[Nachomamma8]

Excellent, I look forward to it.

[Nachomamma8]

All I gather from that is we have one scum in {Acosmist, Nachomamma8, Elementary Fermion,}, and one scum in {Furry, Ellibereth}.

Mod: Going V/LA until Wednesday

Don't do dumb shit before I return.

[Nachomamma8]

The copfishing by Nacho came before the mafia could be sure Cojin was actually a doc. Getting a cop to out himself does several things, including potentially falsify Cojin's claim.

And what reason did I have to doubt Cojin? Because of how close Cojin got to a lynch

after

his claim, it was obvious that he would make an easy mislynch anyways. So why the hell would I care whether he was vanilla townie OR doc at that point?

Day 1, I posted too much. Day 2, he misses the wallposts. Day 3, succinctness is pro-town. Flip-flop-flip.

Posts like the one I'm making annoy me when I see eight of them to a page. When it gets to the point where I'm not seeing a quarter of the content you produced before, then I'd rather be flooded by wallposts as opposed to not seeing any posts. And succinctness is pro-town. I'll wall battle with the best of them if it's a confirmed town I'm protecting, but if the rest of the town isn't even going to read it, then what's the use?

At least he was absent when the havingfitz lynched was finalized. Wait. That's a bad thing.

Erm, how? I was obviously in support of the lynch. What else did you need me to say?

[Nachomamma8]

In a newbie game, I tend to have a waaay different philosophy than I would in a normal game. For example, reaction hunting by voting without an explanation tagged on with it is generally a bad idea when you're the only person who knows wtf is happening.

Also, why woulld you request a deadline extension? There are two scums to get, you know. So why don't you, you know, actually do some scumhunting and make a case on me that doesn't, you know, suck? After I shoot that down, maybe we can get somethin productive done! ^.^

[Nachomamma8]

Okay, lemme address your "case".

Re: Copfishing:
Okay. Let me put that into perspective for you. First of all, I had special reason to believe Cojin's doctor claim because of my reading of his previous games, where a VT claimed doc and screwed over their chances of winning. So, after seeing Cojin saw firsthand the reasons why VT claiming powerrole is an idiot manuever, wouldn't it make sense to you if I realized that he wouldn't do that himself?
Secondly, check again (just for shits and giggles), how long we had before deadline. If I was going to copfish as scum, why would I do it when no one had a freaking chance to respond?

Re: Inconsistencies:
Okay. The secret's out. People aren't inconsistent. Sometimes I look up and I don't want to read your wallposts, otherwise I realize that the content in this thread is 0% and your wallposts are nice to see. Now, it's your turn to explain why the hell that's scummy.

Re: EF attack:
It's scummy to misunderstand someone?
Let's see... I thought that people weren't both angry and bored at the same time.
EF thought that people wouldn't be as loyal to the site as Panacea was.

So... it's scummy when I incorrectly assume, but it isn't when EF does? Congratulations, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Happy, Acosmist? If not, feel free to respond buddy. We got six whole days.

You're not lurking? That's news to me. You haven't really provided anything close to useful in a while. NACHO AND ELLI ARE OBVSCUM LYNCH THEM LOL is pretty much all I've gotten out of you today. Can you do something less predicatable and more productive, please?

I think it's okay for people to miss the entire last week of a three week deadline because Reality > Mafia. In addition, we would've got the extension if we were more active so it's most definitely our faults for being screwed by deadline, not just Elli's. Trying to paint it any other way denotes a problem with accepting responsibility or a role pm that says "I win when the town is dead".

Hmm... your last line sounds strangely overconfident, but it lacks a vote. Why is this? Are you not as confident as you say you are? Or are you scum afraid of attracting all the attention to just the two of us...?

[Nachomamma8]

That's stupid. It would work even better since they have no idea what you're doing.

I have no desire to be Day 1 lynched by a bunch of confused noobtowns.

Also, you're ignoring the point, where in Bab's vote did you see pressure/reaction vote?

The whole not tagging on an explanation for the vote in the vote post...? I said that already, babe.

Prod Acosmist please.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes. Especially if we remember his next two posts.

[Nachomamma8]

That doesn't really matter any more, doesn't it?

But I was conjecturing due to a bit of harmless interaction early-game, then a lot of ignoring a whole lot later.

[Nachomamma8]

Are you gonna start playing to your town meta now...? Or should I just start looking for your partner?

[Nachomamma8]

Ridiculous Activity + Overaggressiveness + Being an Asshole = My Town Meta

OH SNAP



On a somewhat related note, Acosmist should post once that hangover wears off...

Votecount

Not Voting - 5 (Acosmist, Furry, Elementary Fermion, Nachomamma8, Ellibereth)

With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

I want to care about this but it's all WIFOM, so, you know, no.

WIFOM is classic scumtellicious stuff.

No, I'm pointing out that I didn't have a scum motive there. That's not WIFOM... Although, cheaply deflecting my point is noted.

Why would anyone want to suppress that?

Because there is a such thing as too many wallposts. Sure, they do offer the chance for people to react to your opinion, but they also offer the chance not to react. Seriously, look back at all your wallposts, and look who responded when the wallposts weren't directed at them... Also, it puts you in a blatant tunneling mode where you simply won't see when you're wrong, as soon to be demonstrated by my lynch.

[quote="Acosmist']
Yeah your behavior was totally comparable to what EF did

protip: no
[/quote]
Explain.

If that were true, wouldn't you want an extension so that reality and mafia could coexist in peace and harmony?

Never said I didn't want an extension. I'm just saying that I agree the mod's decision.

Do you really not know?

Why else would I ask...?

In Magic: the Gathering, we call this rules-lawyering.

what is this i dont even

[Nachomamma8]

I'll respond later.

And look, no scum quickhammer from me!

[Nachomamma8]

Fudge.

Good job, you two.

[Nachomamma8]

Advice? When you have control of an apathetic town, milk it for all it's worth. Aggressively push the lynch of any lurker that wasn't your partner, and befriend everyone else. There really wasn't a reason for you to go after both me or Elli that last day; we were suspicious of each other, so you should've picked the easiest target and let the town destroy itself.