Newbie 958 ~Game over!

[brianj]

/confirm

[brianj]

vote: Incognito

This guy won all of his eight games as scum. Seriously.

[brianj]

Not really. All I needed to do was look at your wiki page; I mean, with the search function down I am not going to bother finding and reading through the games you played. O.O

[brianj]

Because skill set for playing scum and playing town is slightly different in my opinion. Also voting for players in earlier stage is hardly an indication of one's desire to lynch that player.

By the way, I lost my first game as Mafia, so my win rate as a scum is 0%. If anyone wants to vote for me please consider that I am player who is likely to be town and fails at playing for scum side!

[brianj]

It is true RVS (this is what is happening right now, so you might want to search it in mafiascum wiki) is kind of pointless, especially with some people EXPLICITLY stating they are using random number generator. Can you propose some kind of topic we can discuss about?

[brianj]

Yay questions! Let me kick-off some discussion as well.
@Earlder1- What do you mean Incognito think you are two people? (I don't understand.)
@remouk- Why did you feel the need to stress the fact you were voting randomly, even going as far as explaining the method you used to pick your target?
@Alta- Is there any specific reason why you voted for Remouk?
@Coach Travis- In what way do you think RVS is superior to RQS in information collecting?
@Leech- you are alive, right?

[brianj]

OMG Earlder1 scum.

Unvote, Vote: Earlder1

[brianj]

@Earlder1
I am somewhat surprised at your reaction toward my vote. In the RV phase, where we literally have nothing to go upon and people are making a vote for slightest of reasons, you are surprised that I have placed the vote on you due to your actions, especially when you admitted that your post could be seen as suspicious? My vote stays until the other persuasive target appears.

And yes, mods do have privilege to edit people's posts, which is why mods have their own colours to avoid confusion. Such edits are generally done to the first post in each page, where the mod would put in the votecount list.

[brianj]

Oh, that's why. I thought tone of my wording "OMG you scum" was adequate enough to explain its nature. Word 'scum' is thrown around quite frequently by some of the players in this website.

I also know what the animal your avatar is, but I'll disqualify myself since I cheated

[brianj]

I can somewhat see ThatTumbleweed's reasoning behind his vote; lurking scum and indecisive townie can be really indistinguishable when they had not made any choice or statement decisive to the game. This is exactly why I am surprised some seem to be against bandwagoning in RVS- it forces all player to make critical decision, and since day one is the period of the game where mislynch is most likely to occur due to lack of information there is not much to lose. However let me point out

Alta

is equally guilty of all the charges ThatTumbleweed is laying upon remouk? He hasn't expressed that much opinion and views, and his defense of remouk is also sounds somewhat neutral to me. He isn't necessarily scummy, but input would be appreciated.

Alta, who do you think is the most scummy player currently, and why him over others?

However,

remouk

, your post are completely devoid of game content. At least alta has decided to take lukewarm stance against ThatTumbleweed's vote- all you said is that you don't know anything. Let me tell you that active lurking is generally seen as much more scummy than lurking itself. Even if you are cluelss, fortunately there is plenty of discussion going on for you to talk about. What do you think about Earlder1's avatar question? Do you agree with Coach Travis's opinion of Incognito?

My impression of

Leech

is that he only pointed and countered the mistakes or newbie misconceptions without expressing his opinion about others himself, but perhaps this could be as much contribution could be made to the town at the moment since technically nothing significant had happened yet.

Earlder1

, slightly suspicious. I remember my first game where the scum was literally caught by over-reacting to some accusation thrown at him. Although the gravity of accusation thrown at him is significantly low, I am little lost at how Earlder1 responded just like LordChronos has helpfully pointed out.

LordChronos

currently gets pro-town judgement from me- all of his posts were intended in some form to provoke reaction from others.

@Coach Travis
What happened to your suspicions about remouk? Can I hear from you what do you think about ThatTumbleweed-remouk situation?

[brianj]

Well, I believe that is a difference of opinion. The fact of the matter is that there is rarely a majority of obvtown. In my previous game, there was maybe one other person who everyone thought was probably town and that's it. I know that I got lucky in my previous game because of the doc save but there is no guarentee we are in a setup with a doc.

Obviously I don't want to appear so scummy as to be lynched day 1 because no matter my allignment, that hurts its chances of winning, but I will try and refrain from seeming obvtown.

Maybe I'm alone in the line of thought, but after my first game, I value it.

Your scenario described the situation where the one Townie particularly stood out, which gave the doctor something to make his decision about instead of randomly choosing and hoping it will work.

Mafia has 100% chance of hitting Townie.

Mafia has 100% chance of hitting Townie whether or not one of the player is perceived as scummy or innocent.

Thus, I can only see your playing style as attempt to keep yourself alive by throwing unnecessary confusion to the town. This is prioritizing self's benefit over town's overall benefit.

@Incognito
I thought it was attempt to drag Alta out of lurking by forcing him to defend himself. I might have had different opinion about LordChronos's motivations if his accusation were bit more serious and well-based, but it was obvious to me that his wording as "hypocritical" was illogical. As you said his interpretation of Alta didn't really sound valid at all- no one is going to get more suspicious of Alta because of that.

The very fact his interpretation

[brianj]

To mod: There are something big coming up right now, and though I will try to contribute, I might go afk. If I do not vote within next 72 hours, replace me instead of prodding me.

[brianj]

Regarding to above post, I meant 'post'. Not 'vote'. Above notification qualifies all the time; do not prod me, replace me instantly.

remouk's arguments are interesting, but I have to say Incognito has valid point. Obviously it would look pretty scummy too if he chose the alternative of seriously pushing for the lynch, but that is contrarily to the argument. I think I am fairly good at distinguishing bandwagon votes from pressure votes, and from re-reading I don't believe this town would have sheeped the Incognito vote like you suggested. But you are speaking up, and this is very good. It would be nice to see debatable post from Alta too. And how is that analysis coming up Earlder1?

[brianj]

@Incognito
#96 You will probably see this being done by me quite frequently, actually. I generally copy & paste the post I am arguing from whenever I find myself facing a way to explain things- especially since English is my second language.

[brianj]

I've been prodded; will post my analysis as well.

[brianj]

# About

Leech

my point still stands. I cannot understand why people do not see him as suspicious just for the virtue of his first post. It was an massive fluff only consisting of him pointing out obvious newbie mistake and opinions, and is completely devoid of his personal opinions. This is a newbie game so I understand that some might feel the need to bring all of such things into light for every Townie to see, but what I do not like is how he became automatically classified as "neutral" because of that post while other lurkers like Alta and remouk - who thus far has revealed more opinions about other players than Leech - got severally questioned.

Scummy

# Oh,

Alta

. What do I make of you? While remouk has at least risen up against Incognito, Alta continues to be lurkish and incoherent as ever. At his first vote he random votes remouk while saying he've "always disliked RVS. I prefer to work off of evidence and facts but I guess the whole point of RVS is so we can start to get facts." When I question him about it he once again emphasizes it was random vote and that he "really don't like RVS but their isn't any other good way to start". What? Note that my question he replied to was posed in form of RQS- if you really don't like random voting and wants to get information, then why the hell didn't you began the game with RQS instead? In fact he never attempts to get information from other people and spends all of his meager post repling to other people.

Speaking about his posts, can you find a common theme?

@ThatTumbleweed

I don't think there is enough evidence to really go after remouk at this point.

It just doesn't seem very weird to me for him to not be sure about anything. If he is Town then he wouldn't have any idea about who is scum and who isn't

@LordChronos

Yeah, I was thinking about that, however my vote was just random while ThatTumbleweed's vote was a far more serious accusation.

Anyway I guess that Remouk's actions are pretty suspicious but I don't know if I would consider them enough to lynch him.

Sorry for not posting in so long. I've been busy but i'll try to post more oftean.

Anyway I currently don't really know who is scum.

Everyone is a little bit suspicious but a prime suspect to me is remouk. However despite his scummy behavior I am not convinved he is Mafia.

I think that right now the best thing we can do is keep discussing.

@Incognito

Nothing's changed I always found Remouk scummy I just don't think that his actions are enough to condemn him.

I mean God, one would be hard-pressed to make so many posts stating the same thing over and over. Lot of things happened since he has first posted, lots of arguments and accusations being thrown around, yet he dogmatically restates this single opinion without commenting on any of those! And is it me or is Alta wording his posts in a way that his suspicion toward remouk seem to be increasing progressively (from "not enough evidence" -> "somewhat suspicious" -> "prime suspect ... not convinced he is Mafia" -> "always found Remouk scummy") though from his last post suggests that he found remouk always scummy? Doesn't matter at all though; he never forgets to add that there are insuefficient evidence in what I suppose is piss-poor attempt to rid himself of responsibility when remouk lynch goes wrong.

SCUMMY

# I am getting normal Townie vibes from

remouk

rather than scummy ones, though I admit this opinion could be prejudiced since I don't like how almost everybody in town seem to have fos'd remouk in someway or another in the game. RNG use is a null tell; scum may do it, Townies frequently do so as well. And I am pretty satisfied that he threw out his accusation against Incognito spite of his weak reasoning, because to my knowledge Incognito was not particularly bearing down on remouk at the moment. Voting an IC first can attract quite a bit of attention, so if remouk keeps his current level of activity and content shown in his sixth and second post I'll be pretty satisfied.

Neutral

remouk, regards to

Anyway, I do think that a non-explained vote is scummy (even if good town player already did it), because it's far easier to explain a vote after everyone talked about it, than before. And you can always use the "I wanted to put pressure on him" backdoor.

it depends on the content. I think when 'good' scum does something that is suspicious, there must be something in that action that results in equally beneficial pay-off to the scum side. Why I find Incognito's Earlder1 vote suspicious is because that, well, there was nothing much to be gained. No one was going to gather and lynch Earlder1 because two unexplained votes were placed upon him (or at least I have that much faith in the town). How much that unexplained vote increases likelihood of the target being lynched is pretty good indication of it's scumminess. Hell, I had two separate games off-Mafiascum where someone just randomly voted, and one case turned out to be Cop and another case turned out to be trap set by masons to draw out scum.

# I'll complete my analysis of

Incognito

since I mentioned his RV in my advice to remouk as well. Honestly his RV is useless- since I assume he uses "Incog Theory" everytime in beginning of the game regardless of his alignment. Honestly I feel his use of theory is as equally damaging as people who use random number generators, but oh well. He is completely neutral to me- he has done well to draw out conversations from other people, but to my belief he also never commited to his opinion about other peoples? I also note his writing is very friendly and gentlemanly, if you understand what I am saying. Helps other people to view him more favourably though I suppose it could just be him being an IC.

Neutral

#

Earlder1

, I am pleased to see detailed analysis coming from you. Let me refute some points in your argument though:

brianj- I'm a bit weary about his play. As I'm sure will be agreed with, I was an easy target because my mistaken comments. In post 103, he also seems to be trying a bit hard to appease everybody. He says he agrees with both sides and fails to really have an opinion on anyone but myself. I'd like to see some more content from him, but for now he reads slightly scummy.

The Earlder1's accusation against me consists of three points:
1) Voting for an easy target.
2) Agreeing with both sides; I assume remouk and Incognito.
3) Fails to have an opinion on anyone but myself.

* This is the post in question.

OMG Earlder1 scum.

Unvote, Vote: Earlder1

Note the timing of the vote. There was still not an significant accusation present yet, and I had been the one to post this

right after

Earlder1 posted said-incriminating comments. I am highly curious how I knew other people were going to misunderstand your comments; nobody seem to have misunderstood your comment when you said exactly the same thing in previous game of yours. In fact, what incriminating comments? There are none in the post that led to my vote. People found you scummy because of your over-reaction, and your anti-town philosophy of deliberately trying to look scummy. Your reaction to my vote caused you to be easy target, whenceupon you reply I voted because you were an easy target? How does THAT work?

* I fail to understand which part of my post shows me supporting remouk. In post #103 I clearly state that there was no anti-town intent on Incognito's vote, which refutes the very meat of remouk's accusation itself. I did speak positively about remouk, but after rereading it should be clear that I was happy about remouk coming out of his hiatus to take serious stance, not upon the validity of remouk's argument itself. Also can you give me examples on where I try to appease everybody? I truly have no idea about this.

* You apparently missed my opinion toward you, and this.

One more thing:

Earlder1 (3) - brianj, Incognito, LordChronos

[So in recap, I have prepared the following list in terms of how scummy I think everyone is, 1 being most scummy.
1. Brianj
2. Lord Chronos
2. Alta
2. Remouk
5. Incog

Do I smell an OMGUS? Either way my opinion on him still stands.

Scummy.

Those five are the individuals I have the strongest opinion about, I'll analyze remaining players (LordChronos, Coach Travis, ThatTumbleweed) later on. Actually I found them all personally unremarkable, but who knows what I can drag up when I actually start looking.

I think Earlder1 is likely to be scum, but I feel mafia much strongly from Alta's current behaviour, so:

Unvote, Vote: Alta

[brianj]

ummmm, is it me or is my analysis post not visible?

[brianj]

Hello Shadow Dancer, welcome to the town. Hopefully you'll turn out to be more helpful than Alta :p

@Earlder1
Your point is acceptable. I actually made all that analysis because of your accusation anyway. Also note that I looked positively upon remouk's activity in the game, not his argument/opinion. There is a difference.

[brianj]

I apologize for my infrequent posting. I have final exam coming up in June 3rd so I cannot contribute as much effort into this game as I would like to. Hopefully I'll follow up with the analysis about rest of the players when I post again >.>

[brianj]

Quick drop-in.

#194: Not really. Shadow Dancer clearly is more involved than Alta, providing his opinion about most of the players and discussion going on- whether it will be defined as town-tell or scum-tell only the time will tell. However I just wanted to point out few details about him I felt little uncomfortable with, since he will naturally be compared to Alta he just replaced which may cause some people to prematurely judge him as pro-town.

When he mentioned Alta in his fourth post or tenth post, I somewhat feel that Shadow Dancer tried too hard to distance himself from Alta's actions, going as far as to say he would have "proposed a policy lynch on him" and "vote Alta [himself]" while also simultaneously trying to make justification behind Alta's behaviour ("It's players like him that lose games for town...", "I think I can also read from his comments that he was just too impatient for this forum with its slow paced games"). Of course, it is duty of Townie to make himself as much as clear as possible and Alta was quite suspicious so I suppose this behaviour is acceptable, but the way he worded the sentences makes me feel that he over-emphasized his cluelessness over his replacement's behaviour.

This is why if anyone should wish to hammer Earlder1, he or she should read through the meta he referred just to check if his argument is valid. I personally would like to read through that game myself, but like I stated I do not have enough time for this right now.

However, I also wanted to mention how both

Shadow Dancer

and

smashbro_of_the_SSS

fos'd Lord Chronos. To be honest I don't like the idea of "towniest" townie; nobody is never clear til they are dead, and the three players I missed in my previous analysis was being too much overshadowed by likes of Earlder1, Alta, and remouk for my liking (as in, not many people seemed to be focusing on picking apart those three people's behaviours). The way that both replacements opened up an new avenue of discussion seems pretty town-like to me.

[brianj]

Dropping into say I will not be able to contribute until June 7th or 8th. Hopefully the day seems to be nearing the end so I won't be missing much while I'm gone >.>

If I do not post after the date I mentioned, replace me immediately. I am serious.

[brianj]

Well, lot seems to have happened while I was gone. First silent respect to DTMaster for his splendid analysis before damned scums silenced him. He brought out many valid points

which I expect everyone to respond to.

I will be sad if people ignored his points just because he died. Here is my take on remouk-Shadow Dancer conflict.

#

remouk

What I notice about his play is that he tends to iso all of his post/attention toward single player he find most suspect. I can literally summarize his entire thought process like so: clueless -> Incognito -> Shadow Dancer. His use of Minimalist Approach itself is not particularly that scummy since he is apparently quite busy (#Remouk 5, #remouk 10), but I will have to increase my suspicion level if he persists on giving minimal analysis about rest of the players since his recent WoT seem to suggest that remouk now has enough time to do the basic read-through on all other players (specifically analysis about Coach Travis, LordChronos, smashbro_of_the_SSS, and me).

#214 I am uncomfortable with this; he seems to suggest that his vote against Incognito was purely done to "see the reactions" which too conveniently corresponds with his prior posts ("of course my vote is weak", "Am I the only one to think that way?"). The problem is that remouk's attack against Incognito was not grounded on any scummy argument IC had made, but simply on the statement 'unexplained voting is bad'. I cannot see how discussion following it will NOT collapse into meaningless theory-talk. Also by admitting he was making weak pressure/reaction hunting vote, his position on Incognito once again becomes ambigious.

remouk, so what is your opinion on Incognito now?

It's his saving grace he definitely made his position clear on Shadow Dancer b/c otherwise he would not have made any analysis at all- which at this point of the game is definitely anti-town play. Hypotheticals aside, although I do not necessarily agree with remouk's analysis on Shadow Dancer, I also do not see why remouk when day is about to end would suddenly start an shitstorm and be an active participant in it. I will see how remouk-Shadow Dancer situation develops before making firm judgement about him.

VERDICT:

Neutral

#

Alta/Shadow Dancer

You can read my opinion on Alta and how Shadow Dancer is trying too hard to distance himself from his replacement right here. The fact that he seemingly glossed me over (#165 and #166) as "beutral" and stopped talking about me at all despite the fact that I proposed major fos against his predecessor does not help improve my impression against him at all.

I see the same slow build-up of suspicion Shadow Dancer is having toward Earlder1 ("But his explanation - as naive as believable as it was - gives me the feeling of an inexperienced player." -> "I'd consider you at least a good choice for a D1 policy lynch, if no real suspect occurs... " -> "Who says all he's claiming is not just a gambit to cover his later real scum behaviour." -> "I'd also put Earl rather in the scummy corner right now. " -> "I think I have found bigger fish to fry - in Earl."), and pressuring Coach Travis to vote while discussing about Earlder1 as sneaky way to push his bandwagon further.

But mostly I really do not like Shadow Dancer's reaction against remouk in #226. What in the world happened for you to over-react so? remouk's case might have been poorly supported, but his main point ("meta-game itself is not enough for one to put other player in L-1") is still pretty viable. What I find most suspicious about his post is that Shadow Dancer immediately works on undermining remouk's credibility.

What does this tell us about you:
- Either you are intentionally lying about what I said.
- Or you are lying about ISO reading me, making all that up from wrong memory with obvious intentions.
- Or you do not really care, do not read carefully and/or do not really follow the conversation.

Each of the three possibilities is pretty much scummy.

This is False dilemma. Note at Shadow Dancer's opening post he said "No one screwed up so far, it seems to me, unusual for a newbie game", complaining somewhere he played with "vanilla townies fake claim cop and fake claim guilty investigation results on another townie"? Oh yeah, I really like how he automatically fos remouk for his statement and propose three scummy justifications for it while it could simply have been misunderstanding.

Oh, and I love "Could it be that you take all this much too personnally?" in #238. This is all after Shadow Dancer wrote:

I am tired of pointing out that you obviously do not care about the case against Earl or what people write in this [thread]...

If you would have had a brief look at that game or just read the few facts I stated in my case post you would not compare apples and oranges right now.

What are the reasons (read: objective

reasons

, not just some obscure

feelings

) for your acquittal of Earl? Are they better researched than your case against me

?!

Seriously: I have seldomly seen a post as short as yours peppered with so much more or less blatant scummyness.
...
I almost want to hope we've found 2 scum D1

+ All other thinly veiled sarcasm.

Another major weakness I found against Shadow Dancer's argument is that Earlder1's current playstyle is different from his past one, as he himself admitted. The argument that "Earlder1 is mafia because he is suspicious in this game unlike that other game" is not really valid.

I also like DTMaster's point about how Shadow Dancer asked the mod to replace Leech (#152), suddenly become agressive all over clearly afk player (#154) only to revert back to his position thereafter (#165). It just feels unnatural to me and seems like it was forced so that it leaves Town with impression of him being as active scum-hunter.

VERDICT:

Still Scummy

I will do my reading on rest of the players at another time.

[brianj]

Okay, quickly throwing in one more read since he has low amount of posts to read about.

#

Leech

/smashbro_of_the_SSS

Leech

is essentially null-read right now since he is confirmed afk. I might as well be better off just crossing Leech off from "Leech/smashbro_of_the_SSS" right now.

#smashbro 2
Alright; you have two suspects you wish to go over. You find Alta suspicious because he is a lurker, okay, and then Shadow Dancer comes in and... and? I cannout understand the point "I was curious as to why he did the dice roll and probably random voted from it, and then goes to place a real vote on an inactive player. It seems like he may be avoiding getting blood on his hands from a vote".

Can you explain this argument further please?

I know you still find Alta/Shadow Dancer highly suspect (#smashbro 5 "I have no clear top suspect, though Shadow Dancer / Alta is high on my list.") but you never clearly broke down how he specifically warranted your suspicion.

Your case against Lord Chronos seem decent, not bad for day 1 fos. Then when LordChronos replies right after, smashbro immediately withdraws. What? So it was pressure vote? How do you feel about Lord Chronos right now? I mean, he does fos

Shadow Dancer / Alta, Lord Chronos, and remouk

in his fifth post, but I am quite uncomfortable about how wishy-washy he is being about this. It gives him enough freedom to jump arond bandwagon between any three players to over-committing himself unnecessarily. There isn't that much post from him in order for me to judge his alignment right now, but I hope to see more opinions/arguments coming from him soon.

VERDICT:

Neutral

[brianj]

#

LordChronos

#18: DTMaster pointed this out as "insane buddying", but I am reluctant to classify it as so because his support of Incog forced me to respond to his question- which I thought was good way to kick off beginning discussion. However this is not the only case he makes subtle statements that could be perceived as buddying:

Fair enough. I read your statement a little more strongly than you worded it.

I have to agree with Incog on the voting without giving reasons.

Totally agree with you about Leech, brian.

Also, brian wasn't trying to fence-sit and appease both sides. He supported Incog's position with regards to the case remouk made and said he thought more activity from remouk was good. That is in no way fence-sitting.

By the way, dice voting is something SD does. He did in Greek Mythology too. And his random dice vote was on the same player as his real vote, as I recall.

I would throw in his defense of Shadow Dancer as well, but I realize other people have pointed out flaw in remouk's argument as well. (

Incognito

"Yeah, I'm not seeing the case on Shadow Dancer at all.",

Coach Travis

"I don't see how you could become more suspicious of Shadow Dancer just for making a big post to show why he feels Remouk's case was unfounded, and completely lazy.") So this is yet a null-tell. I am curious though-

can you elaborate in what way rem is dodging around the question?

This goes for remouk too, back up your statements people.

#60: Your criticism of Alta still looks artifical to me. I initially thought it was effort to have Alta speak up but that theory was apparently debunked by yourself (#84). Something to ponder about if Alta/Shadow Dancer turns out to be scum in the future.

#82: DTMaster already spoke about this.

I also note though he had thrown around tons of questions, his only concrete fos this point in the game had been Earlder1 (and apparently Alta according to #196 though I don't recall him specifically explaining why I think). Wee.

VERDICT:

Scummy

#

Coach Travis

I really have no idea what to say about him. He seems to have glided all the way into this game posting wall of ambiguous statements- and as someone who successfully flew under the radar to 3-way lylo as scum in my first game, I find this to be highly dangerous. I am not sure he proposed any new idea or opinion of his own at all I think? He might as well be normal Townie who really has not much to write about, but everyone should remember to pay extra attention to him for reminder of the game just so he don't coast his way along unhindered.

VERDICT:

Scummy

til he changes his playstyle.

Please try to give details reasoning for your arguments instead of parroting majority concensus.

[brianj]

Not have enough time to analysis Incognito for today, but

I need to do a reread including reading through the large posts DTMaster made before he died. Never got a chance to read through them, and I'm curious as to why the scum chose to NK him.

I really do not like this post, especially I think DTMaster is first player to actually point out Incognito's scummy points extensively.

[brianj]

Pre-emptive prod check since I am too busy to be involved in this game for now; I'll be back within three days I think, so I would appreciate it very much if no one speed-lynched before I get chance to respond O.O

[brianj]

LordChronos (#253):
Thank you for the explanation- it would be nice if you guys clarified what particular questions have been ignored instead of seemingly randoming each other of doing so (at least in my pov) =/

You said you felt my criticism of Alta for continuing to vote a player that he felt was town and was defending was artificial. In what way was it artificial? You don't think that that point and the subsequent change of Alta's opinion about remouk were scummy?

The game was still at somewhat beginning phrase (page 3) where half of the votes made were yet random, and there were only 2 votes stacked against remouk. Without urgency of quick-lynch, I felt there was nothing strange with portraying opinion that conflicted with his vote since RV by it's very nature doesn't hold that much weight at all.

You don't think that that point and the subsequent change of Alta's opinion about remouk were scummy?

Yes; subsequent change of Alta's opinion was very scummy. In fact he could have voted remouk planning to subtly bandwagon him, which would explain why he wouldn't unvote like you criticize. HOWEVER YOU POINTED OUT ALTA'S VOTE BEFORE HE BEGAN TO MAKE HIS SCUMMY CHANGE OF OPINION and therefore it has nothing to do with my point. I find it curious why you felt the need to ask me this question?

Incognito (#254):
Yes, I also feel the importance of reading through opinion of NK'd Townies. It's just that #249 is your first baggage post that is hardly meaningful at all- I understand it could simply have been announcement that analysis is coming, but I just didn't like feel of sentence "Never got a chance to read through them, and I'm curious as to why the scum chose to NK him" since it: 1) emphasizes that you have not read DTMaster's post, and 2) subtly suggests that DTMaster's analysis caused scum to NK him (=scum NK'd DTMaster after reading DTMaster's post). See how it works? =/ Also I felt the need to shift some spotlight onto you because no one seemed to be paying attention to you that much, and like I said in case of Coach Travis, I don't like people slipping through people's suspicion list very much.

Shadow Dancer (#255):

I won't - because I obviously can't - comment on your opinion about Alta. I cannot look into Alta's head and thus every statement I could ever make about his behaviour can only be fishing in muddy waters, wild speculation at best.
I gave you what I consider one possible explanation for his play. That's hardly "hard distancing". I obviously only have three choices:
1. Pat Alta on the back: "Well done boy, most pro-town play ever, perfect scum hunting on D1!" - Obviously not.
2. Pretend Alta was never here - Impossible, since you wouldn't ignore what he did, either, and (spoken form a general point of view) you do do right so.
3. Distance from Alta's play, not only in word but also in deed. - Yes, of course.

No, when you replaced in though many thought Alta was suspicious, it was equally as agreed that it could have been newb playing as well. Concensus on the town was that "Alta was suspicious, but the judgement cannot be made until we see how Shadow Dancer behaves". You were definitely not on the risk of lynch because of what Alta had done, and by simply being pro-town the suspicion would have died away- just like what is happening now. You used way too much strong wording against Alta when considering the situation one simple statement, or just simply being pro-town, could have sufficied; and that is over-reaction.

So an OMGUS vote against you would have been better for you? I can only agree on your vote against Alta, I'd have done the same, so why should I doubt it? I had other priorities, obviously. Also, not posting anything about you does not mean that I ignore you, maybe I'm only lulling you into a false sense of security

No, but basic analysis about me and the reason behind it (like you had done with others) could have been nice. Your omission of me stands out quite notably. If I replaced in, and found someone who was fos'ing me - confirmed villager - the hardest, I would have at least paid attention to that person to determine whether his intention was genuinely misguided or scummy. At least, I would have taken notice of him, instead of being all like "Wait bria...whatever... Who's he?! Is he in this game?! Has he contributed something already?! - Seriously: I just realize that I totally overlooked him in my ISO reading... Will catch up on it :\"

I concede on the points you make at third paragraph.

So why is using background information about a player to determine possible explanations for his behaviour and founding a case on that foundation not a viable voting reason?
Is L-1 voting some one one week before deadline a problem for you why?
You might realize that I asked rem the same questions. He did not/could not/did not want to answer them. Would you mind doing so?
Also the same reasoning aplies to Inco then. Why don't you question his L-1 vote in the same manner?

And I am not undermining rem's credibility-- there's little to undermine, really. What I do is point out how massively anti-town - at best - his post was.
...
This is False dilemma. Note at Shadow Dancer's opening post he said "No one screwed up so far, it seems to me, unusual for a newbie game", complaining somewhere he played with "vanilla townies fake claim cop and fake claim guilty investigation results on another townie"? Oh yeah, I really like how he automatically fos remouk for his statement and propose three scummy justifications for it while it could simply have been misunderstanding.
...
Where's the thin veil? Alright, that's sarcasm. And? What do you find fault with here? That I pressure a scummy player? It's basically the same weak argument rem uses: I do not like how you approach people, you must be scum. Why do you think I take that personally? I don't. If rem would just answer my questions so we both know what we are talking about we might find a common ground, but he refuses. I consider a different reason than scummyness - that he feels personally offended - as explanation - I try to point him a way out of his dilemma. The last think I want is to pin down an inncoent newb, but I cannot hadle every one with kid gloves just because he/she might not be able to deal with it. If you haven't realized it yet - scum hunting relies for a good part on scum not being able to handle the pressure put on them in an appropriate way.

Wait, what? I was asking about why you felt the need to completely tear apart remouk's point in classic case of over-reaction, not how remouk's point was viable. I accept it was my bad choice of wording there; the main point on that paragraph, combined with following paragraphs, is that you completely over-reacted to simple accusation which hardly posed any risk about you, tried hard to paint remouk in scummy light while taking agressive gestures that was likely to start confrontation. You perceive it as following your usual playing style, I perceive it as excessive reaction. Am I the only one to see it this way?

I concede on your point at seventh paragraph.

The mistake that DTM made and that you obviously adopted is to assune that I could realistically know that Leech had RL stuff to do (do we know that, anyway?). He was SE, so I assumed he did not just flake outand would post a V/LA, if he had no time to play, which he did not. He made a prod pickup promissing an analysis which then kept missing... Of course I demanded him to contribute.
I also repeatedly said that that was just a prodding vote and not a lynch all lurkers vote. Of course, in retrospect it looks kind of silly to try to pressure an obviously absent player. But again: I could not know that back then.

I generally find complete absense from website to be signs of one being afk. To be honest, I am the one of those player who tried to pressure Leech into posting as well; however, at least I was consistent about my position. Main point in DTM's argument was that you were not. Your supposed reasoning behind attacking Leech has nothing to do with our argument.

smashbro_of_the_SSS (#263):

As for his night kill, it seems pretty obvious that he was a kill choice. Something to note is that he listed Chronos, ShadowDancer, Earl, and Incog as suspects.

Another thing to note is that he did not talk much about me, you and Coach Travis exactly because there was not much to talk about. Leech virtually has nil post, and he hammered before he got chance to analyze your meager five posts. I do not like how you re-stated what anyone else could have figured out simply by reading his post; the sentence makes it seem like DTM found you and CT not scummy, while truth had been there was simply not much posted from both of you to talk about.

Incognito (#264):

brianj, why does SD's metagaming negatively affect your read of him?

Poor choice of wording, my major point of attack toward Shadow Dancer is:
1) Shadow Dancer's over-zealousness to distance himself from Alta when suspicion against him was hardly critical.
2) His over-reaction toward remouk's attack.

I do agree one of LordChronos, Coach Travis, Shadow Dancer must be scum, so I'll

Vote: Shadow Dancer

for sake of being well-rounded.

Shadow Dancer (#267):
buddying? Though it could be interpreted either way, I am surprised at the amount of effort you put into explaining how remouk could be newb town after expanding so much effort into attacking him. Either way this is a terrible advice; at least after reaching seize-fire agreement, discuss about something related to this game instead of theory of "scum read".

And fuuuuuuu LordChronos and remouk replacement. D:

[brianj]

Premature prod check. Hope to see some more posts when I get back >.>

[brianj]

Deadline is uncomfortably getting close, so I think we should actively start to determine who to lynch out of Coach Travis / LordChronos (Equinox) / Shadow Dancer. Honestly I like Shadow Dancer because he is the only one I have the best scum read against while Incognito, CT, and Equinox can potentially fall into both scum and town category.

Sorry, I can't get over the fact that Shadow Dancer simply blew up on remouk's face and voted him while he has been dripping newb town tell (at least CT and Equinox agree with me on this) all over the place. Not acquitting remouk even if my read on SD turns out to be correct though; his attempt to reconciliate with remouk introduces minor possibility of SD/remouk scum team trying to accuse each other just shy of having themselves lynched (now had not remouk been replaced and kept his attack on SD, that would be different matter).

Equinox, I see DTMaster NK led you to conclude that there is at least one scum in group of Incognito and Shadow Dancer. Then will you be agreeable to SD lynch day 2? Seriously, Alta/Shadow Dancer kept pinging my scum radar from beginning of the game that I can't believe why some people would fail to see he is scum.

[brianj]

I need to read through Coach Travis's last game, but I want to lynch Incognito today. He's done a good job of staying inside the sheep costume, but I want him dead. I don't want IC scum pulling a master gambit tomorrow.

Vote: Incognito

And what is said master gambit? I think Incognito is not necessarily believed to be town by most- at least I do regard him warily, though admittedly I never found time to analyze him in detail yet.

Can you specifically explain what you found suspicious about Incognito, or at least what makes more scummy than the rest? All you did is post a WoT about everyone, then suddenly exclaim you have most suspicion toward him. It is NOT enough to persuade me from pushing for lynch of Shadow Dancer, whom in my eyes is already confirmed scum.

Also what is up with bandwagon on Coach Travis,

when

he has finally started making definiste stance on his own? It does not necessarily mean that he is Townie, not at all, but voting for him is like blindly shooting into the dark- I would prefer to keep him alive for another day should he continue being more proactive, so town have more evidence to work with before voting him on the basis of "he is too wishy washy". I find it highly uncomfortable that Shadow Dancer would push L-1 on another easy target because: 1) scums are cowards who likes to lay low, 2) DTMaster kill must mean that CT must have not wanted him to read rest of his posts. All of which are speculations by the way.

[brianj]

Hey everyone, what's up?

Also, while I read... who's scum?

Welcome, it's always nice to have new perspective on current problems.

If you are willing to accept my opinion, this is my list of read I have strongest confidence in to read I have weakest confidence in:

STRONGEST CONFIDENCE
Alta/Shadow Dancer

Scum

remouk/win-chester/Zachrulez

Town

Incognito

Scum

Leech/smashbro_of_the_SSS

Scum-ish

Coach Travis

Town-ish

LordChronos/Equinox

Town-ish

WEAKEST CONFIDENCE

Shadow Dancer and remouk I am pretty set on. Although opinions on Shadow Dancer may differ, town also seem to have universally accepted remouk as town and the sentiment is likely to stay so unless Zachrulez starts to pull off string of suspicious behaviours. As for the second scum, I would like to say Incognito, but I am still cautious of the fact that this could simply be an case of high expectation, due to his position of IC and perfect scum record. Not enough to repel my suspicion of him though; enough people have said that Incognito only leaves impression of IC and nothing else, and gamewise I can say with good degree of certainty that he has not done or at least started anything remarkably pro-town.

Rest three I have neutral reads on, but if push comes to shove (Incognito or SD does not turn out to be scum) I would classify smashbro as scum. What tips a scale for me for smasbro is his little involvement in the game. Though I understand he is busy, he seem to be just in that level of not really being active but displaying just enough opinion and posts to not attract attention. When I don't have that much materials to work with when iso'ing someone, I'd rather put him as scum just to be safe. I do not have significant suspicions against neither Equinox and Coach Travis yet, though I have sneaking suspicion that Coach Travis could be another case of remouk incarcanate. Either way I'm reserving my judgement on these three until more comes up, which is why if it's up to me I rather keep today's lynch target within Shadow Dancer and Incognito.

I still think Shadow Dancer lynch is best idea, but because I don't like idea of lynching Coach Travis d2 (with Equinox proposing Incognito/Coach Travis scum team), I'll be willing to compromise lynch on Incognito if the former seems unlikely. I would definitely be eager to know how everyone thinks.

[brianj]

@ Incognito
The problem is, I find most players in this game to either have distinctive playstyle or have proposed major foses that had been discussed extensively which I try to use to formulate my read. However I cannot really recall any definite argument you particularly brought up & defended which confused me a little because I would expect exprienced player would try to get actively involved in the discussion as much as possible. You yourself had said you "didn't have as solid reads as [you'd] like". I generally get the impression that you are just talking about the events that are currently occuring in the town, and hardly reflect back to the past discussions and try to get a detailed read on someone else.

Actually I woud very much appreciate it if you defended yourself by bringing up examples in which contradicts with my impression, and reveal your current impressions on all other current players. I am still cautious that your perfect scum record is making me judge you too critically than I would like.

@ Shadow Dancer

I'm going to have to respond to this post. You accuse me of misinterpreting and twisting your words. Contrarily, I'll have to accuse you of the same. You talk about Coach Travis two times in a post where you vote for him:

What I find interesting is that every one discussed about what DTM wrote but no one about what he did not, i.e. every one is ignoring the IMO remarkable fact that he never finished his analysis. Hence he never commented on my case against Earl, on CT's hesitance to vote any one in general and Earl in particular, Inco's L-1 vote that kind of was parallel to mine and the confrontation between rem, me and, to a lesser part, LC. I would have really liked to hear his opinin about that.
I don't know if this thought leads us anywhere, but since the reads he had on players when he died were the reads he had at a time where relatively little was going on in comparison... So: I ask myself: Who could have profitted from DTM not completing his analysis. Earl, rem and CT come to my mind, possibly also LC an I, Earl is dead, rem - well see above. I have no reasons to mistrust myself or LC for thinking along the same lines as me in this matter. That leaves CT...

You brought up the another possibility behind DTMaster kill (scum does not want DTMaster completing his analysis). That's good.

Then

you conclude that only CT benefits from DTMaster not completing his analysis; when such argument is present in the post where you vote for Coach Travis, does not this become another reasoning you throw at a town to effectively justify your L-1 vote? If you truly meant to propose such innoculous speculation for the town to discuss, then you rather chose a poor time to do so.

Then look at the sentence that soon follows after the quoted paragraph: "If mafia has a motive that lies in DTMs half-baked reads upon his death then it might rather be to frame some one". First, why definitely say DTM has "half-baked reads"? Who knows? To the town, possibility of mafia killing DTMaster for his read is just as equally as probable as the possibility you suggest. Could be subtle attempt to discredit value of NK'd Townie's analysis. Secondly, you point out mafia could have just killed DTMaster to bring suspicion upon the players he fos'd. I cannot believe it did not occur to you when typing this sentence that then mafia could also have killed DTMaster just as equally to frame Coach Travis, since he is singly implicated if we change reason behind DTMaster's death a little bit. Basically this is WIFOM and definitely has no place on the important L-1 vote post.

Another general matter that arose: Concerning agressiveness - in my opinion agression is crucial to scum hunting. Always keep in mind:

Scum wants to lay low, they are cowards and they are few trying to hide in a greater mass.

If you do not pressure hard and agressive, you give them an easy game. Town has to play as predators to win. BUT: It always has to be a controlled agression. If one no longer knows konw where one's heading, one's most likely on the wrong track.

I like how CT is trying to give some decent opinions lately, but with his general hesitance on D1, especially before his Earl vote, where I picked on him for his extremely wishy washy posts, make him my best feasible suspect for now. So:

unvote. vote CT

You are talking about your fos when you suddenly bring this scumhunting advice out of nowhere. You say aggression is crucial, and subtly suggest that scum are unaggressive cowards who just like parroting major concensus.

Right after that paragraph,

you vote Coach Travis on the reasons of hesistance and being wishy-washy. I am convinced to believe that you brought up that "scums are cowards" comment to lend further credibility behind your lackluster reason behind the vote.

Generally, I have pointed out the two things on the post you voted CT which subtly suggested he was scum. Regarding Coach Travis you might simply have said "vote Coach Travis because his general hesistance and wishy-washy nature on D1 makes him my best feasible suspect" (which is kinda terrible reason to put someone in L-1), but putting those statements about CT made your post look better.

I rather believe my point still stands valid, and I really do not like how you once again dismissed my point by saying: "I never specifically proposed causality", "it was just speculation", and "you are misled townie proposing bogus arguments". This is continuation of Shadow Dancer's tendancies to dismiss player leveling major fos against him as simply emotional:

As it turns out [remouk's] lack of understanding was just a symptome of deeper purely emotional response to my playstyle. ... [brianj] seems a bit misled into the same direction rem was misled. Maybe it's a general sympathy for newbies that leads to all this chain saw situations.

Also, is it me or Shadow Dancer's following multiple posts full of support for equinox which could be easily as interpreted as buddying: "liked equinox' analysis. I think I'll comment one point or another. Right now I'd like your present opinion on rem/zach. It seems to me like you're the only one besides me who realized his clear "I told you so" maneuvre(s)", "I'd almost say I'd join a case against Inco if just you could present onloy one solid point why inco really could be scum", "@equi: Really funny you read that game. Why would any one willingly do that?! It was such a horrible game. Every one, including myself, except maybe three or four people - two of them scum - played just abysmal in there."

[brianj]

Okay, I am no longer that suspicious of you than before, but I still think you are the best lynch for today unless Incognito manages to spectacularly mess up somehow (or someone brings up convincing supported argument that incriminates him). Everyone else - due to their lack of posts or recent replacements - are currently in my "wait and see" list; I'm not going to start accusing them seriously until d3 where there are likely going to be more content. I want you lynched today because it will help greatly in determining alignment of remouk. Because of the way Alta attacked remouk, I can state with great deal of certainty that remouk/Zachrulez is town if you flip scum.

[brianj]

Shadow Dancer

Only thing that bothers me is his weak claim. I'd have expected a cop or doc claim from mafia to provoce a premature counter claim from town... But mafia doesn't go by a book "things mafia should always do in this and that situation"... Scum hunting would be way too easy then...

...Okay. Seriously, I do not like the risky game you justed played. In fact, I am still not convinced of your claim yet since this is multiple setup, something which implications that everyone should recognize seriously. Few questions for now:

1) Why do you specifically consider my type of play "anti-town"?

2) Even if we trust you, what other viable alternative lynch target are there? Note that though I agree Zachrulez vote change was kind of half-heartedly supported, that single behaviour is not enough to warrant him a lynch over the rest.

[brianj]

Zachrulez
Wow, only Nobody Special and you posted and you speak about "In the absence of a counterclaim, I believe the claim"? Increasing my suspicion meter a little.

[brianj]

Zachrulez
Wow, only Nobody Special and you posted and you speak about "In the absence of a counterclaim, I believe the claim"? Increasing my suspicion meter a little.

What that means, is that I believe the claim with the information he's provided unless he is counterclaimed.

Based on your reaction to the claim alone, I'd actually prefer to lynch you.

VOTE: Brianj

Alright, I see it can also be interpreted that way. However I would very much appreciate it if you elaborated which specific part of my reaction was particularly scummy. In this setup all sane Townies have obligation to question the validity of unsupported claims.

[brianj]

Can you explain the first sentence please? I don't really understand it. As for the 2nd point, it was still a question asked toward Shadow Dancer. I merely pointed out that I will not be comfortable with going with what seem to be his current choice of lynch.

I am not worried about how scummy the post you quoted looks though. It doesn't mean anything at all if Shadow Dancer does turn out to be scum. I would like to see Shadow Dancer responding soon to my questions, with deadline approaching and all.

[brianj]

I'm guessing that you mean I seem to be accepting Shadow Dancer is cop when "Okay. Seriously, I do not like the risky game you justed played", but immediately flips back my position in "In fact, I am still not convinced of your claim yet since this is multiple setup, something which implications that everyone should recognize seriously". Acceptable, it was unintentional mistake in my part.

[brianj]

Okay, I would rather wait it out a little bit more to see where the town concensus was going, but I have to leave this computer for a while and because I am afraid of stumbling back only to see the town having lynched someone, I'll get this fact out of open:

I am

Cop

. Shadow Dancer is

Mafia

. gl town~

likely

v/la

for few days, but since day is almost ending I supose it won't matter much.

[brianj]

I investigated Shadow Dancer.

[brianj]

Because I tried to get one more investigation in before revealing myself. Either way, it's needless debate now since the lynch has occurred. I already submitted in my action, so I'll really be leaving for today.

[brianj]

I honestly messed up by investigating Shadow Dancer over Incognito first, I think. I might have been able to form good argument against SD independently but for some reason I suffered from chronic laziness whenever I attempted to iso Incog *sigh*. I was pretty sure Incog was guilty when SD halfheartedly started attack on Incognito when the town consensus seem to swing that way. Maybe really should have taken the risk and fake claimed on the Incognito investigation. Either way, good game and excellently played by all.