A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[I doubt it]

Vote: Mina

Who's your scumbuddy this time?

Raise: Rifka Viveka

Because I dig your username.

[I doubt it]

Pay attention people. On the very post that announces the raising vote:

A Hand of the King will be raised when there is a simple majority (i.e. 14 votes). Alternatively, whoever has the most ‘raise’ votes at the time of the Day 1 lynch, will be raised.

Whichever method is used, the Hand of the King will become a double voter from the beginning of Day 2. The Hand may split the two votes. Both votes will be public.
The Hand may not be stripped of his title in any way. A new Hand will not be chosen on the Hand’s death.

We are electing a permanent doublevoter, and we don't have the option of raising no one. There will also be no replacement when/if the Hand dies, even though it would fit the books better if there was. So we should just raise whoever we think is most likely to be town, once we have enough information to make such a decision.

Since raising ourselves is allowed:

Unraise

Raise: I doubt it

You guys COMPLETELY misunderstood my point when I said "RVS is over".
RVS is a period of random voting. I had made a statement of nonrandom voting and suspicion, therefore it brought us out of the RVS.
I was NOT saying "RVS is over because RVS is stupid and it should end now."

Any attempt to

consciously

end RVS will most likely just result in a debate on whether or not it was premature and whether or not anyone has the right to decide when it's over. You probably didn't intend it, but declaring RVS over just serves as a distraction from scumhunting. It will end on its own.

I like the Richardwagon. There's some classic scumtells in there, plus all his arguments against CMAR are pretty ungrounded.

Unvote

Vote: RichardGHP

Finally, don't expect much from me until next Monday. My sister will have a graduation party so things are gonna be hectic for a while. Count this as

V/LA

I suppose, although I'll probably still post once or twice.

[I doubt it]

Just in case I'm wrong does anyone have a descent case on Richard? I read him and didn't find him scummy so much as dumb-town. Am I wrong? All of the cases against him lack substance beyond-the-meta.

Starting to look more like VI to me as well.

Unvote

I'm not convinced Richard's the best lynch any more, and I

really

don't like the last three votes on the wagon.

FoS: animorpherv1, Mikujin, Migwelloni

More thoughts tomorrow, dead tired now.

[I doubt it]

Tell me how you are distinguishing scum from extreme VI.

It's mostly a gut feeling. I've seen townies crack like that under pressure several times in games I played. He could easily flip either way, although his claim fits the books remarkably well.

More importantly than that, I was unnerved by the sudden lurker bandwagoning and wanted to make sure I had time to take another look at the game.

Explain why he doesn't need to claim at this juncture.

I wasn't explicitly against a claim, and it's not like my unvote would (and didn't) stop him from claiming.

In retrospect the unvote and whole post was unnecessary. I was planning on making a bigger post on Monday when the whole graduation ordeal was over, but my drunk self apparently decided to post instead. Sorry if you think I'm flipflopping here, that's the truth.

On to the scumlist:

Lurkers (animorpherv1, CCARaven4, Deer, Hayker, Migwelloni, Mikujin, Paranoia): Way too many lurkers to seriously consider any single one for a lynch, unfortunately. Worst of the bunch are animorpherv1, Mikujin and especially Migwelloni, for opportunistic bandwagon jumping with little to no reasoning.

Benmage: Looking at his posts in ISO, it's a whole load of setup speculation, role fishing and discussion about raising, plus other fluff posts, but very little scumhunting. Who's scum besides Drippereth?

vezopiraka: Really erratic play and hasn't told why he suspects the people he does. I'm waiting for a case.

Kleedrac: His whole argument against CMAR is a mess. Most of it is about the contract, which I agree was pointless, but I don't think it was scum-motivated. On the other points, he's either massively misinterpreting CMAR or is just being really obstinate. Seems like he's pretending to scumhunt.

Vote: Kleedrac

Unraise

I'd be in favor of raising either Percy or Cow to Hand. Both seem pro-town, as well as articulate and well-reasoned in their arguments. There are some others I could support, for the same reasons, but these two in particular.

[I doubt it]

I’m gonna give you the opportunity here to tuck your tail between your legs and walk away…do not talk to me again, unless I talk to you first.

Unvote
Vote: Benmage

[I doubt it]

@I doubt it: Annnnnnnddd, why do you find it scummy? That sounds like pure OMGUSing.

Benmage: Looking at his posts in ISO, it's a whole load of setup speculation, role fishing and discussion about raising, plus other fluff posts, but very little scumhunting. Who's scum besides Drippereth?

Plus, what reason would he have to threaten me like that when all I did was ask a simple question? He's scum.

[I doubt it]

Just want to make this clear to everyone. I am not defending Benmage, I am just trying to find faults with I doubt it's case on Benmage.

Why would you even say this? You're simultaneously defending him and distancing yourself from him. If either one of you flips scum, I bet the other one is too.

I will admit he did speculation about the set-up a bit, but a "whole load" is reaching. Plus it didn't get in the way of scum hunting that much.

I count six posts that are wholly or mainly setup speculation on a quick glance through. A whole load is subjective, but I'm quite sure that's way ahead of anyone else in the game. What kind of a defense is "it didn't get in the way of scumhunting that much" anyway? This sounds like a bit more than just pointing out the flaws in my case.

Direct me to the posts where Benmage was rolefishing.

Ok, it's more of a flavorfishing if it can be called that, but I mean ISO 14 primarily. I found that pretty scummy.

The dark blue line makes absolutely no sense and I cannot see how in the world it is possibly any form a scum tell. As a matter of fact, having some discussion in it early in the game was actually beneficial. This also makes you look very hypocritical, for you were discussing raising as well.

It's a question of quantity. I'm not saying discussion about raising is useless by any means, but it's not a substitute for scum hunting. I think I should have stated this more clearly, but I do find it scummy that the majority of a seemingly-active person's posts are mainly dealing with side matters. It stinks of a scum that tries to look like he's contributing but is really not.

I also disagree with the green line. Benmage has done more scum hunting then most people in this game, and especially more then the lurkers.

*shrug* ISO 20 seems to imply he has some point he's trying to prove, so I guess I might be blind to some of his strategies here. At the very least, he hasn't been open about his suspicions and has only made some vague fingerpointing toward Drippereth. More importantly, why do you think it's fitting to compare the contributions of one of the most active players to the contributions of a lurker? I would expect him to contribute more with several times the amount of posts.

Also, no comment on how he tried to threaten me to keep quiet?

Why hascow? Do we ignore DrModem's play? Also, weird that both picked out the same Raise candidates.

I pretty much am ignoring DrModem's play by now. He seemed like an overwhelmed newbie. There are better leads, and hascow has shown strong pro-town play.

As for the second point, it figures we would arrive to the same candidates because we used pretty much the same criteria.

He sounds like he just want rid of a townie, and I'd wager that he knows who Ser Loras is.

Why would you think he knows who Ser Loras is? Because this sure sounds like you know more about him than you're letting on. I'm not asking you to tell us who he is, if you even know that, but if you know his alignment then you should at least say that much.

[At this point I believe I can't appeal to the usual sense of logic and reason as there are trains running on myself and Richard with no case but the logical case I built on CryMeARiver and the case Mikujin built on vezopiraka go completely unanswered in any way! No one has defended CMAR or Vez nor has anyone agreed and voted. But the random loose bandwagons on me and Richard just keep gaining unreasoned votes which no one appears to see as scummy?! I feel as though I'm playing this game in another language here, you play in a very different style than I'm used to. As for insulting me or questioning my age well not only was that unnecessary but it's pretty much guaranteed I won't be playing on this site again. Enjoy your game guys, when I flip town just kill the hydra thing and we'll call it even Note that from here on out I will only post to answer directed questions and won't be contributing more ammo onto your trains, thanks.

How are you being helpful in any way if you refuse to post unless you're being personally pandered to? You're completely worthless to town if you don't even contribute, and your extreme paranoia about people finding you scummy more than suggests that you are scum. Defend yourself or die.

Unvote
Vote: Kleedrac

I like Percy's approach to being Hand, and his latest post further cements him being town.

Raise: Percy

[I doubt it]

Awesome, the forums are back up. I need a day or so to catch back up again, so expect some content later today or tomorrow at the latest.

[I doubt it]

About Raivann

My initial reaction to Raivann is that his flip flop is not as bad as people make it. I mean these posts in particular:

Call me a sucker, but I believe Kleedrac here. He seems to be genuinely pissed.

unvote, Vote: Kleedrac

choo choo!. Someone made a good point about yeah he was pissed but that could just as easily come from scum

IMO, there is no inherent contradiction. If he had left it at this and given some reasons for why he finds Kleedrac suspicious I'd have accepted it. Instead, he says stuff like this:

I find this post scummy. Because people doesn't agree with your view on RichardGHP"s claim, you basically decided to bandwagon, which is bull because it basically said you're refusing to support your top lynch candidate in favor of a lesser scummy, but more popular lynch candidate.

FoS: Raivann

Yup, that's basically what I'm doing
Let's see if we cant finish this game before 2011.
What do you find scummy about it?

I would rather we lynch Richard, but it doesn't seem to be going that way, so I hopped on popular wagon. Do I believe we have better chance of hiting scum with Richard lynch? Yes. But I'll go with the flow D1.

He's literally saying he wants to go with the flow. That's what scum want to do, not town. Very anti-town.

Has anyone played with him? If so, is this play style normal?

Not in the slightest. In the GoT mini, he made an effort to scumhunt, reread the thread and looked beyond the surface, pressured people, and came off as fairly genuine. His play was a little erratic, particularly right before his lynch on D2 (which also might have been alcohol-induced), but nowhere close to this bad. He certainly wasn't jumping on easy bandwagons and flip-flopping on suspects. I might be biased because I was scum in that game, though. Maybe you should ask Percy, Locke Lamora, or MacavityLock, since they suspected him in the mini.

This coupled with the above is enough to make Raivann a prime suspect. Assuming Kleedrac gets replaced with someone reasonable I could get behind a Raivann lynch, but I still think Kleedrac is scummier.

About Benmage

As I was reading the thread I noticed Benmage was posting a lot of smaller posts about things that were in my opinion not essential to finding scum. That's something I like to look for in a scum: trying to look active while contributing little. It can of course just be how some people like to post, and after briefly looking at Benmage in other games that may be the case here. In addition, his response is not unreasonable (apart from the personal insults at least). I'm neutral on him right now, although I'm still waiting for the mystery case on Drippereth.

For the record, I have a little experience on this site on an alt, but mostly I joined this game because I loved the books. Not that I think this is important or that I intend to use inexperience as a crutch, but since people keep bringing it up there it is.

As for SSBF

Does I doubt It's recent poor argument change your opinion of him from only slightly suspicious to more suspicious or is your opinion of him the same?

My opinion on him is currently the same as before. I've already looked at his response to me at least twice.

Nothing to say? Not even to these?

Just want to make this clear to everyone. I am not defending Benmage, I am just trying to find faults with I doubt it's case on Benmage.

Why would you even say this? You're simultaneously defending him and distancing yourself from him. If either one of you flips scum, I bet the other one is too.

What kind of a defense is "it didn't get in the way of scumhunting that much" anyway? This sounds like a bit more than just pointing out the flaws in my case.

I still think that's more than pointing out the flaws in my case.

I also agree with the point MacavityLock raised about SSBF needlessly defending himself from being accused of parroting. That's two different instances of being overly defensive, the one in the quote above and the one about the parroting. Why are you being so defensive SSBF?

I agree with LynchMePls that CMAR's instaneous unvote is strange and we need to hear from him. I'm going to have to look into the rest of the case when I have a bit more time.

Mod: Please prod CMAR. He hasn't posted since June 11 and even that was just a promise to post the next day.

[I doubt it]

@I doubt it: Why shouldn't he defend himself? Do you believe there is such a thing as overdefensiveness? If so, how is it defined?

There's a difference between defending when being attacked, which is only sensible, and being overly cautious on a constant basis. SSBF looks like scum who's trying really hard not to look scummy. JVW put it better than I could:

The final reason I shall give for SSBF's scumminess is his interactions with Benmage. Rifka has already commented on this, pointing out that not only is Benmage made scummier by SSBF answering for him, but that SSBF was doing just what he said he wasn't - defending Benmage! In this contradiction we see SSBF squirming and displaying self-consciousness, something we also see in Parrotgate. Scum has more need to be careful than town, since they cannot afford to be lynched quite as much as town can, and I think we see signs of SSBF-scum trying desperately to make sure he doesn't cast the wrong impression.

I'm now thinking we might do better with a Raivann/SSBF lynch. Sure Kleedrac looks scum and might easily be, but who would his flip imply as his partner? He's got almost zero interaction with anyone, whereas Raivann, or even better, SSBF have a lot of links to look into. I could buy Kleedrac as a frustrated townie and give Budja a chance.

Unvote

Vote: Raivann

CMAR looks like an extreme case of lurkerscum. He needs to be pressured for content come day 2, but unless we get a deadline extension, he's not as good of a lynch as Raivann or SSBF.

[I doubt it]

I truly think Rai (well, SSBF actually, but I can be realistic) a better lynch than CMAR; I don't see the trouble in CMAR's quick unvote, as unvoting after a claim is common on this site and it is not impossible that an impulsive player would do this as town. Also, promising to provide more content as CMAR did, and then not delivering it, as CMAR has not, is hardly restricted to scum alone.

I agree with Raivann being the better lynch, but I will add that the two minute unvote also seems like active lurking as opposed to just an impulsive decision to unvote.

Another note about CMAR:

You know what? I'd advocate a CMAR nameclaim (not a roleclaim) now. I'm saying this because names were only tangentially related to roles in the mini (important characters didn't have important roles). This quote along with the horrible cop breadcrumb make no sense.

I fully support this. If he has any notion to survive this day his next post should include at least this, when we're this close to deadline.

[I doubt it]

Beric Dondarrion makes sense as a vig and the flavor seems to fit.

Unvote

BTW, someone should unvote just to be safe, but a clear wagon should remain evident. Raivann shouldn't be off the hook because of a vig claim.

He's not above suspicion, but I don't want to lynch a claimed vig on D1 when there's a reasonable competing wagon. It's too late to make a new wagon now, so unless something extraordinary happens, it's gonna have to be a CMAR lynch.

Vote: CryMeARiver

[I doubt it]

unvote vote:Budja

I don't know that Richard's claim is conflicting, could someone please explain that to me?

The gist of it seems to be that it's implausible that there's a full vig and a one-shot vig on the same alignment. I don't think it's impossible but yeah, now that I think about it, it would make more sense if one of the claims was false, or if Richard's claim is true too but he actually belongs to a Renly-based faction.

Eagerly awaiting whatever CMAR has to say for himself, although I doubt it will make a difference at this point.

[I doubt it]

Im thinking we lynch richard for a win-win. If he is scum, yay. If he is telling truth, vig blows someone like CMAR up

Good point. The only question is, can we get 14 votes on Richard in time? I don't want the day to end on No Lynch, but if the Richardwagon picks up I'll hop on.

[I doubt it]

How can anyone be seriously talking about lynching someone other than CMAR after his last post?

Really?

Like, if he had actually made

another

post after his alleged "re-reading" and that post contained a decent claim and some semblance of Townish thought,

maybe

. But here we are, hours later and...nothing? And people want to push

more

for Richard?

If Richard's claim is to be believed, we'll probably have a vig kill even if Raivann gets roleblocked or something, and we're not short on people who need to die. If he's lying we got rid of scum. Win-win as Rifka Viveka said.

Good point. The only question is, can we get 14 votes on Richard in time? I don't want the day to end on No Lynch, but if the Richardwagon picks up I'll hop on.

It's gotta start somewhere. Be a man (woman?) and help us get it going. Sitting around waiting for it to happen will never make it happen.

I don't want the CMAR wagon to evaporate and then be left scrambling with the deadline looming. But I suppose you have a point there.

Unvote

Vote: RichardGHP

[I doubt it]

Sigh, I should replace out, but whatever, I'll claim
I am Jon Umber, Innocent Alligned, or as my role flavor hints at and I breadcrumbed earlier, Greatjon BADASS aligned - I am a bulletproof hence why I tried to lead town at the beginning and act like a protown macho but was epicly foiled by Richard who really pissed me off. So yeah, my role PM consists of my vote, my kill immunity, and my win con. Oh, and apparently when wolves bite my fingers, I just laugh in their face? Idk

I have every reason to believe that is a completely bullshit claim CMAR.

Is that all your PM says about your Bulletproof ability?

Answer carefully.

Hmmmm, let's go thru my PM without being modkilled, shall we?
I am welcomed to the game.
It says my flavor name, my allignment. Then a whole bunch of flavor stuff.
It says I have a vote and it counts as 1 towards the daily lynch.
It says I have a kill immunity and that I am so bad ass an attempt on my life will fail, but lynches don't count. So the if I'm lynched, like I might be, it will succeed. And that I WILL be informed if an attempt on my life is made.
Then it says my wincon. When the scum are dead and the kingdom is safe(ish).

That's it.

Too bad you clarified yourself there, it would have been pretty funny if you insisted on being bulletproof when guns have yet to be invented in the world of ASoIaF. I thought this was what Magnaofillusion was going for, by the way.

Not that it matters. It's too little, too late, and it smells like a fakeclaim. Even if it's true, scum just won't waste kills on him now that he's claimed. Going ahead with the hammer is fine by me, once Mina has posted whatever she wishes.

[I doubt it]

Looking at SSBF in ISO, his play is really consistent with Raivann being his scumbuddy. JVW already made a good case on SSBF/MacavityLock/Raivann scumteam, and I urge all of you to check it out as I think it's a very good case. But I do have some things to add, about SSBF and Raivann interactions in particular.

First of all, his random vote is on Deer(Raivann). Even though I've seen scum "random vote" their scumbuddy, I don't think it's a particularly good scumtell, however every time I've seen it they've unvoted their scumbuddy rather hastily. This is the case here as well. He doesn't even let his vote sit on Deer for 24 hours.

I see nobody argees with my view of Richards claim, and I don't think Renly is that prominent of a character as xvart was saying.
unvote, Vote: Kleedrac choo choo!. Someone made a good point about yeah he was pissed but that could just as easily come from scum

I find this post scummy. Because people doesn't agree with your view on RichardGHP"s claim, you basically decided to bandwagon, which is bull because it basically said you're refusing to support your top lynch candidate in favor of a lesser scummy, but more popular lynch candidate.

FoS: Raivann

HoS: Raivann

Your last few posts have been absolutely terrible. I'd also like to add that your FoS against me was an OMGUS reply and that you have not been very productive in this game.

Has anyone played with him? If so, is this play style normal?

He makes both a FoS and a HoS on Raivann, yet keeps his vote on Kleedrac until the end of day 1. FoS scumbuddy, vote townie anyone? In addition, the second post really looks like he's pleading Raivann not to be so scummy so he won't have to vote for him.

How is that a scum tell? I'm glad that a Mafia Godfather is dead and for legitimate reasons.

1. A scum is dead. That's one less bad guy to worry about.
2. We can search for connections between Raviann and other players that might also be aligned with him.
3. Less worries about false "Innocent" investigations from cops. Mafia Godfathers usually turn up Innocent in Cop investigations. Because of the Godfather death, we are more likely to receive accurate Innocent's results.

There is nothing, and I repeat, nothing wrong with the death of a Mafia Godfather. As a matter of fact, town should be glad that we have a Godfather dead. So tell me, what is so wrong about that quote you've made?

Congratulating the town is a pretty well known scumtell. Everybody knows that a dead Mafia Godfather is good for town, so you're once again explaining yourself unnecessarily. Although I do find it interesting that you believe the Godfather was immune to investigations, as the other variation of Godfather is immune to NKs, and we know there are several killing factions in this game.

Also, what Percy said. How about you tell us whose interactions with Raivann are scummier than yours?

Vote: Super Smash Bros. Fan

@Richard: You're confirmed townie. Congrats. You're not getting lynched. Now how about you help us find scum?

[I doubt it]

EBWOP:

He makes both a FoS and a HoS on Raivann, yet keeps his vote on Kleedrac until

near

the end of day 1. FoS scumbuddy, vote townie anyone? In addition, the second post really looks like he's pleading Raivann not to be so scummy so he won't have to vote for him.

At that point though it's close enough to deadline that bussing Raivann would be appropriate for his scumbuddy SSBF.

[I doubt it]

Alright, finally got time to look at the case on dana.

To evaluate my case for yourself (which I think everyone should do), first look at the way dana goes after Kleedrac earlier today. When you have an idea of what dana did with that scumread, go and look at the way dana behaves during the Raivann wagon - I've already outlined how his opinions on the slot changed from hypotheticals to actuals, and qualifications of the read / case material was dragged out of him. Now for the punchline - look at what happened when it looked like it was coming down to a choice between Raivann and CMAR, when he elected to not participate in the Raivann wagon and instead say he was happy to jump on CMAR's wagon to prevent NL. Pressure forced dana to claim that he had

always

had a strong scumread on Raivann (a contradiction in itself), but this is not what his actions indicate anywhere today.

His all-out-denial, no-engagement approach to my case is desperate and unpersuasive.

This is pretty much spot on, it seems. At no point before he is pressured on Raivann does he say he is suspicious of Raivann, or why. After being pressured, he claims he stated he is as suspicious of Raivann as Kleedrac. The only thing he says even close to this is here:

End result: IF you don't want to lynch Richard after his claim, and IF you find Kleedrac nearly as scummy as Raivann, you should be voting for Kleedrac.

He doesn't actually say he is suspicious of Raivann, the whole thing is a hypothetical he later tries to twist into fact. If you think this does sounds like he is suspicious of Raivann, just check the post above it in ISO. He's asking why people are voting Raivann, so he's clearly not that suspicious of Raivann himself.

Raivann's flip makes dana look like Raivann's scumbuddy who tried to divert attention from the Raivann wagon, but when Raivann wagon picked up some votes he tried to retcon his read so he wouldn't be seen defending his scumbuddy. I still think SSBF is scummier than dana but he's not looking like a bad lynch either.

[I doubt it]

Give me one good reason to keep him around. Just one.

I'll give you two. VI is his town meta (although I can't provide links sorry). And there are much larger fish to fry (dana and you to be exact). I'd be much more convinced if you attacked someone else, but vezo reads like a scummer's dream target as he is really VI sounding. Part of it is his language barrier problem, and part of it is age (I'm guessing on this one, but I suspect Vezo is not very old).

Your case is overreaching and seems a bit desperate to me.

In addition to these points, Raivann's death suggests that there's a vig out there. Vezo is the kind of player who needs to be vigged rather than lynched. There's little to be learned from a vezo lynch, as most his content is just bandwagoning.

SSBF sure is going after the easy target. SSBF wagon needs more votes.

I do like IDI's case on danakilsu, since it fits my theory.

Which theory is that again? As far as I can tell, this is the first time you've expressed any doubts about dana being town.

[I doubt it]

Has

anyone

read my case on CSL? Anyone at all? It's not just a lurker lynch. It's a lot like the case on danakillsu, except my wagon has butterflies and rainbows!

I forgot about it as it was late in the day 1, but I've looked into it now. Unless I'm missing something, the crux is his inconsistencies in who is scummier, Raivann or CMAR, yes? It doesn't seem to be as damning as the case on dana. At the very least, he's said from the beginning that both of them are scummy, which is more than can be said about dana.

@Everyone else: This wagon needs more votes.

QFT. Even though dana's links to Raivann may be more suspicious than SSBF's, SSBF looks really scummy. If he isn't Raivann's scumbuddy then he could easily be from the other scumgroup.

1. Does poisoning seem likely as a Greyjoy kill flavour? Axel has indicated it is not but I wanted other input.
2. Does a ‘faked’ suicide seem likely as a Greyjoy kill flavour?

1. As Axelrod said before, it sounds more like a Lannister way of killing(King Robert was poisoned). None of the kills seem to fit Greyjoy method of killing.
2. I can't think of any character/faction that would fit a "faked suicide" kill. We'll find out eventually if more suicides pop up, but I agree with other people's theories that this probably has something to do with Budja's role.

[I doubt it]

Wait...WHAT? SSBF is not 100% town. Lern2read.

FOS: Richard

I want evidence to prove he's town. I don't get it, you are scum. You have the rest of Day 2. Go.

Despite his play, Richard is confirmed town. Your FoS is better pointed toward some other direction. Like at SSBF. What do you make of SSBF, exactly? Other than him not being 100% town.

This is not to say that Richard doesn't need to explain why he thinks SSBF is town, though. Looking forward to that one.

Also,

V/LA July 5 - July 12

as noted in sig.

[I doubt it]

FOS: Richard

I want evidence to prove he's town.

o.O

The way I read CSL's post, "he" refers to SSBF. See full quote:

Wait...WHAT? SSBF is not 100% town. Lern2read.

FOS: Richard

I want evidence to prove he's town. I don't get it, you are scum. You have the rest of Day 2. Go.

Regardless, as you say Richard is town and CSL FoSing him is pointless.

[I doubt it]

Do you always defend people who aren't necessarily town when pretty poor cases are presented?

No I do not. To be honest, I originally thought it was worth defending a town read that I originally had a scummy read on that I thought made a bad case on Benmage. I am currently trying to recitify the problem completely.

That last sentence is really weird. What problem, and how exactly are you trying to rectify it? Do you think the reason I'm attacking you is because you attacked my case on Benmage? Is this you admitting that your strategy as scum is attacking players/cases you find weak?

What is your problem? I already admitted everything you said in that post. I want to know how it makes me scum. How do you know what I thought about Raivann being scum if I never dealt with the issue until after getting pressured? You're just assuming that because I wasn't clear, I must have known he was scum, which really doesn't make much sense.

The problem is that for someone who apparently finds two people suspicious, you only make it clear you are suspicious of one of them and ask people why they find the other person suspicious. You treat two people you find "equally suspicious" completely differently, until pushed on it. The fact that Raivann flipped scum certainly makes it look even worse, since you had a wishy-washy opinion of a major wagon target who flipped scum.

In other news, SSBF is still scum and dana looks like Raivann's scumbuddy.

[I doubt it]

I'm back from V/LA, will catch up as soon as I have time (less than 48 hours from now)

[I doubt it]

Even though dana's links to Raivann may be more suspicious than SSBF's, SSBF looks really scummy. If he isn't Raivann's scumbuddy then he could easily be from the other scumgroup.

Please elaborate on how SSBF could rationally be from an opposing faction yet have scummy links to Raivann. I don’t see how opposing scum forces could realistically be defending each other.

My point was more that the reasons for finding SSBF scummy are not exclusive to his links to Raivann. At any rate, a lot of people have been suggested to have scummy links to Raivann, yet not all of them can be Raivann's scumbuddies. I believe SSBF is more likely to be scum than dana.

I don't really get what you mean with your second sentence, though. Who exactly are supposed to be defending each other?

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Nothing outwardly wrong with dana's claim, but then again nothing was wrong with Raivann's claim either. Still, I don't think dana is the best lynch for today. He is a claimed powerrole, and if he is town, he might easily eat a NK(better than a mislynch). Even if he isn't town, we have strong reason to believe there are more than one scumteam so he might eat a NK anyway, as he is the only outed PR.

CSL needlessly claimed and I am happy to see that he was stabbed for it. Now that he is either a powerless townie or mafia, I say we should just go ahead and lynch him. Perhaps not today as both SSBF and vezopiraka are scummier, but I don't think CSL is going to take a NK with play like that so he's gonna have to be lynched.

Like others, I can only express extreme disbelief that vezo would claim next in line to the throne as Meera Reed of all people. The thing that makes most sense here is that his real role PM does in fact say something about being next in line to throne(which makes him likely a Lannister), and his scumbuddies have beat some sense into him and now he's trying to back out of it. Even then, the timing is odd as LL said - trying to back out of it now will just attract suspicion, though this might be just vezo's own doing. I just can't believe that even vezo would say next in line to the throne if his role had nothing to do with that.

Lynch preference: SSBF > vezopiraka > CSL

[I doubt it]

I am very uneasy with this line of thinking for two reasons.

1. You are relying on Scum (regardless of whatever hypothetical faction) to do Town’s job in getting rid of a player that a good number of the playerbase find scummy. That strikes me as not the best way to handle things for Town.
2. Dana survives the Night. Now what? Are we going to end up repeating the arguments and voting of today with a heaping topping of WIFOM to boot?

If either of you don’t find dana scummy that’s fine. Commit to that position. This tactic borders on a position that embodies fence-sitting.

Because of 1), I suppose you are right that dana probably wouldn't be the most likely pick to NK. With 2) at least we may be able to confirm dana's ability. Wouldn't tell us his alignment but it would be more information to go on his lynch. Maybe the whole idea was a bit optimistic, but it doesn't seem to be happening anyway. Deadline is too close and people are unwilling to leave the dana wagon.

How am I fence-sitting though? I think I've been pretty clear that I think dana's interactions with Raivann were scummy, but I also think SSBF is even scummier.

Soo my point is….what happened to dana? Why did he fall off your lynch list. Are you no longer willing to lynch him?

He claimed, and I think it's plausible that his claim is true. Obviously dana lynch > no lynch, I left him out of my lynch list because I didn't want to lynch dana today.