Mini 990: YuGiOh! The Abridged Mafia - (OVER)

[charter]

/confirm

[charter]

Vote Beloved

It's where my gut is pointing.

[charter]

No, I just don't like 100% random lynches. Although, I'm kind of surprised you pulled out the scumbuddies idea so quickly.

I thought it was a fair question of Alamaster, the thought is running strongly in my mind.

Do you think she's about to get lynched?

[charter]

Vote Beloved

It's where my gut is pointing.

Any reason? Because I don't like this wagon, the way it built.

Didn't particularly like her joke posts. What is wrong with a wagon in the RVS? What don't you like about this wagon?

Kind of a shame that people are questioning the wagon and unvoting before Beloved even gets here. Hindering the scumhunting.

[charter]

How does scumhunting = throwing random votes on people and hoping something sticks? On the flipside, the fact that BP still hasn't posted even though she's the main wagon at the moment annoys me immensely.

I'm not hoping something sticks, I want to see what she has to say about all this. There's scummy things you can say and town things (and null). But all of you guys defending her and unvoting are taking away these reactions.

If it was an RVS vote, then why did you disguise it as 'gut'?

Because I voted her because I didn't like her joking posts. I don't see where you can be confused.

[charter]

My vote wasn't random. The wagon formed in the RVS and most of the votes looked random to me. Why are you turning a simple vote into a crusade?

[charter]

Prodded, will catch up tonight.

[charter]

unvote, vote Kit

I feel like his posts are all just active lurking. He's posting for the sake of posting, not much else.

Beloved's post was full of null, thanks to all those disbanding the wagon for her.

Also suspicious of Pom, I think twice now she's questioned 'wagons' but for no reason other than it's a wagon. She's not doing the town questioning of it, but the scum kind.

[charter]

Also suspicious of Pom, I think twice now she's questioned 'wagons' but for no reason other than it's a wagon. She's not doing the town questioning of it, but the scum kind.

It would please me greatly if you elaborated on this. I just want to know how you define scum and town questioning in order for me to understand your suspicion.

Re: Beloved's wagon, she said she didn't like the wagon. Didn't elaborate or question the votes she didn't like (unless mine was the only one she had an issue with). I actually asked her to elaborate, but instead of answering my questions, she tried to spin an attack on to me.
Re: Alamaster's wagon, it's not as bad when I reread it, but she says she understands the dramonic wagon, but doesn't think he's scummy. It's pretty much playing both sides but not committing one way or the other. She's free to change her mind later once the direction the wind is blowing gets established.

If she were town, and legitimately thought either of these wagons was poor, I would expect her to explain why she thought they are poor, and question those voting. What Pom did was be very vague and kind of test out the waters.

She also just laid down a lurker vote on Bv, but didn't mention our other lurker, Beloved. A lurker vote at this time is a pretty safe thing to do if you're scum. No one is going to question voting for a lurker, because lurking should be punished, but at the same time, she isn't asking Bv any questions or giving him any reason to post. She's just keeping her nose clean. I see this was in response to Alamaster asking her who she's suspicious of, and she comes back with the lurker vote and nothing else.

Beloved's post was full of null, thanks to all those disbanding the wagon for her.

I do agree with this. I didn't like her wagon and how fast it was built on very shaky bits of nothing.

No, you're misunderstanding me. I'm shaming those that questioned her wagon before she got here. Since by that time she didn't have to be worried of anything, knowing that others were defending her, we were robbed of her reaction to the wagon, which is pretty nice scumhunting fodder.

Pom, what do you think of Kitoari? Scummy, townish, null, other?
Kitoari, what do you think of Pom? Scummy, townish, null, other?

[charter]

Back in town, will catch up and expose the scumbags tonight.

[charter]

Re: Alamaster's wagon, it's not as bad when I reread it, but she says she understands the dramonic wagon, but doesn't think he's scummy. It's pretty much playing both sides but not committing one way or the other. She's free to change her mind later once the direction the wind is blowing gets established.

No, I am against the wagon, because I don't think that the way Dramonic responded fairly quickly after he was called out for luyrking was scummy.I've done it too, and I will not vote dramonic for that. However, I understand the point that was made.

So, no, I'm notplaying both sides, though it's possible I worded my sentance badly.

Now let me look at Kitoari.

So you don't think it scummy. What do you think of those using it as their reason to vote dramonic? I find it hard to believe that a wagon springs up on dramonic for pretty much one reason, but you disagree that that reason is scummy, yet you don't question those voting one bit.

@Pom: wait, you legitly think bv's scummy? I thought you were only voting him because he lurks!

Well, with his most recent posts, yes I think he''s scummy. (The only person he seriously talks about is Kitoari. And everything else isn't really serious.)

How is this any different than Beloved or Kitoari? I think Beloved is a bigger lurker and Kitoari is the penultimate active lurker.

Pom starting this wagon is bad, but these people getting on it are even more opportunistic.

Agree with this completely.

Chronopie's vote on Jarti is pure OMGUS, despite his claims.

Right now, Pom is screaming scum to me, but last time that happened, she was town, so I'm sticking with Kitoari for now.

Why isn't anyone else voting Kitoari? He's lurking with the best of them, with the added bonus of all his posts being active lurking to boot.

[charter]

Fakegod, who all do you find scummy, and why?

Who would you be willing to lynch today (if deadline was now)?

[charter]

Do you think all of them are scummy? Can you give a brief summary of why.

[charter]

Ok, what I'm looking for is who you think is going to flip scum, and the reasons that you think that.

[charter]

That's kind of stupid, IMO. What do you think of meta arguments?

I think they're useful, though not iron clad.

I had forgotten MaxMouse was in this game until his post, so I looked at his other posts. I'm not sure if he or Kitoari is the bigger active lurker. But it appears Kitoari has flaked, so..

unvote, vote MaxMouse

MaxMouse, there's plenty of stuff you can talk about without having a replacement here, there's still like ten other players. Do you think FakeGod is scum? What about Pom? You still going on about Chronopie or what?

[charter]

Why do you think that?

[charter]

I don't see how talking often correlates to helping the town. As far as I know, scum are free to post as much as they want, doesn't mean it's helpful to the town.

You post often, but a lot of them aren't remotely helpful to the town.

And, to debate your reasoning just for the hell of it, MaxMouse has 14 posts in 8 pages, and discounting mod posts and all that, comes out to pretty much 1/12th of the posts.

[charter]

I'll catch up tonight, my life has been very hectic lately.

[charter]

I caught up, but I'm not really that in to this game. I'm gonna

unvote, vote Fakegod

, however.

I'm pretty sure he's been on every wagon, though really for no reason other than to wagon, from what I can tell. He's my best guess for who would flip mafia right now, I'll elaborate later.

Not opposed to the dram wagon, only thing worrying me is that everyone I'm suspicious of is voting dramonic (though he's given good reason for people to vote him).

[charter]

2) This sounds kinda fencesitting-ish or possibly buddy-distancing? Or I'm crazy. FoS charter.

I'm saying I think the case against dramonic is a good one, but I don't like how all the people I'm suspicious of made easy wagon votes on him. His wagon looks scum fueled to me, hence why I'm not voting him.

What do you think of Fakegod? (sorry if I already asked you this)

[charter]

Alright, as promised, some of the things I find scummy about Fakegod.

First off, the wagons he's joined and the reasons he gave for it.
Beloved Princess - No reason (RVS though)
bv310 - Lurking (Says he wants to lynch him and says bv lurks as scum) Very odd how he wanted to lynch him there, but now you'd never even know Fakegod finds bv scummy.
kitoari - Lurking (Says he's against lurker lynches, though not on day one. Sounds like another excuse to vote someone)
Dramonic - Voted him twice, both times for posting elsewhere on the site and then posting here once someone points this out.

Really it's just jumping from one wagon to another with pretty poor reasons and virtually no scumhunting in between.

Also, for all the lurker voting he's done, I don't think he's asked any of them any questions or tried to get the to stop lurking. I get the impression he's just voting people because he's supposed to.

[charter]

I'm moving today/tomorrow. Not sure when internet is going to be hooked up in my new place, so V/LA for a few days.

[charter]

Alright, currently "borrowing" someone else's wireless, I should get internet on Friday (I believe, but I'll try and "borrow" some more internet before then).

I don't see where people are getting 2/10 from. The quote that Pom quoted in 265 sounded to me like Dramonic was saying there were three scum, but this is pretty pointless speculation at this point. The bigger question in my mind is why the lynch only took six votes. I'm not expecting the person responsible to step forward, but what I DO find most curious is how Chronopie was Nk'ed. I don't really want to discuss this publicly, but I think people should think about how it's quite likely there's a double voter or some other vote/lynch manipulator which the scum ignored in order to kill Chronopie.

I see I've garnered suspicion because I wasn't on the Dramonic wagon, that's to be expected, nothing I can do about that now. I don't really think it a good idea to be suspicious of me (though I'm biased) solely because I was not voting for dramonic. No one really questioned my suspicions yesterday or asked why I wasn't voting Dramonic, though I made it pretty clear, but no one questioned my reasons. I realize that day ended pretty soon after I said that, but I think it is more prudent to question what I was thinking before jumping to the conclusion that I'm scum.

You have to see where I'm coming from in this aspect, people are just going "vote charter - didn't vote for Dramonic" and not saying anything else, which is a poor reason to lynch someone on.

because he's so obviously scummy.

I'm not unwilling to lynch him, but since when was he so obvscum?

Afraid I have to agree with FakeGod here. If not voting day one for the lynch of a scumbag makes you obvscum, then it would be very easy for scumteams everywhere to trample all over towns by bussing.

I didn't like the reason he decided to vote for FG, it seemed a little bit of weird. He basically said, I think that the case on Dram is good but there are scum on his wagon so I'm not going to vote for him.

What is weird about this to you?

I'll have to reply to Pom's case next chance I get internet, but I glanced at it, and a lot of the points I saw where just her arguing, but they don't show at all why I'm likely to be scum.

ATTENTION DUELISTS

MY HAIR WOULD LIKE TO ANNOUNCE THE VOTECOUNT!

AlmasterGM (1) - bv310
Brandi (0) -
bv310 (0) -
charter (3) - Jarti Pomegranate InflatablePie
FakeGod (0) -
InflatablePie (0) -
Jarti (0) -
Kitoari (0) -
MaxMouse (0) -
Pomegranate (0) -

10 alive, 6 to lynch

[charter]

Once again, who's the play for today charter?

I'll reread Dramonic and some other stuff and get this to you shortly.

The thing that bugs me about that is simply the fact that by the numbers there are bound to be scum on the wagon. He says its scum fueled but why on earth would the scum have bussed the first day? This would have to mean that Alamaster planned to off his buddy on D1. He instead goes after FakeGod simply for voting for lurkers (which I consider a very null tell) and vote hopping (which is really not all that incriminating on D1, while it would be later in the game). The two things I'd like to see before doing anything would be a response from Charter and some fleshed out reasoning from Jarti and Pom, who seem to not be displaying reasoning as much, Jarti especially who did this yesterday to some extent.

I thought these were just your musings, didn't realize you were looking for possible explanations. I can think of several explanations for why scum would bus Dramonic on day one. They might have thought he would mess up, so they sacrificed him. They might not have realized he was about to be lynched with the double vote. Maybe they just wanted to buy some town cred.

Those are reasons that scum would bus. Yesterday, I was saying that I thought Dramonic was suspicious, but I was more suspicious of those voting him. I hadn't made any links between people, so I basically had a list of suspicious people, and Dramonic wasn't at the top of the list. I wasn't didn't have enough evidence to suggest that Dramonic and FakeGod were buddies. I'm not sure if you get what I'm saying, but basically I found some people suspicious, but for independent reasons.

Something else that I think everyone voting me is just plain ignoring, is what if I was voting for scum myself? You can argue that even so, it was useless because no one else was voting with me, but no one is saying that. I'm just being condemned for not voting a confirmed scum. I can see where that makes me suspicious, but it shouldn't be enough to lynch me over, especially since I don't see anyone saying or thinking that FakeGod is town.

Alright, response to Pom's case in a minute, then who I think is scum, version 2.0.

[charter]

I don't like the way charter misrepresents me; I explained myself both times. And I don't have anything against wagons that have reasoning I agree with backing them up.

Not a misrep. If you didn't like this, why didn't you bring up your objection after I made the statement? Why wait until it's popular to find things about Charter.

Regarding the blue: Your vote was the only vote on the wagon I had a problem with. I explained myself many times. Why did you keep bringing this up?

Ok, if my vote was the only one on the wagon that you had a problem with, then you didn't have a problem with the wagon (as you claimed), you merely had a problem with my vote. I think that your suspicion of me is total BS as well, though I can't prove that. You did not explain yourself many times, you were asked to explain many times, but didn't. I want to see these "many explanations" because I don't believe they exist. I keep bringing it up because you never adequately explained it, and now you're changing your story as well (RE: having a problem with Charter's vote instead of having a problem with the wagon).

Regarding the green: What questions should I ask him, if he hasn't done anything? It was a pressure vote, pure pressure. The point is for the lurker to see that there's a vote on him to get him to post, not to ask him questions.

You can ask him anything, I really don't care if it's how the weather is where he lives. But if he hasn't done anything, a single vote on him and no questions to answers isn't going to get him to do anything. And one vote on a lurker? Please, that's laughable pressure to get them to post. I could understand if you called for a wagon on him, but you didn't do that, you just voted and left it at that.

I don't like the way you ask question to make it appear that you're scumhunting, but never follow up on them in any way.

Here's another one of your points that's just thrown in there because it looks good. You don't explain how this is scummy of me, or why I might do this as scum and not town. I don't start an inquisition every time I ask someone a question. Many a time it's just used to get a baseline on that person's thinking, which can be referenced later to see if their suspicions check out.

I don't like the way you ask question to make it appear that you're scumhunting, but never follow up on them in any way.

I said what I didn't like about it way back when. I said I didn't like how you voted BV but just left it at that. It was a very safe, and pretty useless, vote to make at the time.

Okay, so this confused me. Because if you think someone is really scummy, why don't you vote that person?

I thought it was obvious I thought Kitoari was scummy as well. The rest of your part there is a misremembering of what happened. My vote was on Kitoari, I said you were scummy, but I kept my vote on Kitoari. Not sure what the problem is here. I don't see how this makes me scum, either.

Why do ask of MM thinks that FG is scum, if you yourself have not given an opinion on FG?

Because MaxMouse had just made a massive active lurking post, I had no idea what he thought on just about everyone, and I was trying to fix that. I think I asked about FakeGod because I was interacting with FakeGod at the time. Once again, why does this make me scum?

And you, charter, post infrequently, and when I do the math (subtracting mod posts), you have definitely posted fewer than 1/12 of the posts in this game- 21 posts in 301 player post, after subtracting RBT's posts. And four of you posts (specifically, ISO posts 6,9,17, and 21) have been things like 'I've been prodded' and "I'll catch up tonight."

Your point? Why does this make me scum?

Basically, Pom's case on me boils down to this. Pom hit up the ISO feature, quoted most of my posts, and then forced some kind of problem into all of them. I don't think many people read her case, because it does virtually nothing to demonstrate why I'm scum, which I said pretty bluntly after some of her points, but I really could have said it after just about every one.

No one else has really given any reason to vote me, so I'm certainly not claiming because I'm pretty confident that people will come to their senses and realize that not voting Dramonic doesn't equate me being scum. And another thing I want to know from those voting me (excluding Pom, since she gave other reasons, even if I don't think they're valid) is why me instead of someone else who didn't vote Dramonic? I'm not trying to defend myself with that, but I want reasons to hold you accountable to later.

And now for my suspicions...

[charter]

Ok, based off Dramonic's posts, I don't think Alamaster or Kitoari are likely to be scum. It's gut, I could just give a flimsy reason to support why I think that. I think Alamaster is town for reasons unrelated to Dramonic's posts, as well.

I think it's unlikely that Maxmouse is scum, largely due to his vote for Dramonic in 228. If he was scum, that'd have been the perfect time to vote someone else and push for their lynch instead of Dramonic's.

InflatablePie, probably not scum. He calls me out when I said I'm not voting Dramonic, but I think he's suspicious. It's pretty rare to see a scumbuddy bus their buddy and actively push for their lynch. When they bus, they typically vote their buddy and then stay pretty hushed up about the matter.

I think Brandi is pretty likely to be scum. After Dramonic starts to seriously garner suspicion, she asks for a votecount, and hasn't said anything about Dramonic. I think this is probably pretty lazy scumbuddy action trying to see whether she needs to bus or can try and pull suspicion off Dramonic. Plus she's given zero insight into the game.

I still think FakeGod is likely to be scum. He voted Dramonic, his voting with regard to Dramonic is pretty weird, he voted him twice, neither time with much reason, and when he voted him the second time, Dramonic was miles away from a lynch, and I don't think FakeGod posted again before he got lynched.

Pom I'm kind of neutral on. Her Dramonic vote gives her about the same number of town points as the number of scum points she's racked up throughout the game.

BV, scummy as hell as well. Has done nothing but vote Kitoari a few times.

Scumspicions (In order)
BV/Brandi
FakeGod
Pom

[charter]

Vote Brandi

Hit submit instead of preview...

[charter]

For thinking I am scum, FakeGod sure is concerned in 364 that the mafia are (were) going to quickhammer me. It's almost like he's knows I'm town (since I doubt mafia would quickhammer themselves right now).

Lol, FakeGod wanting three people to claim. Obvscum.

There's usually reasons why people don't claim, FG, and I haven't seen many instances where scum hasn't claimed at L-2/L-1.

I would never claim in a game in a scenario like this, where most of the people voting me haven't given a good reason. First you defend yourself, and if no one is buying your defense, and people threaten to hammer, then you might (depending on role) claim.

FakeGod's softclaim in his last post there is pretty suspect as well. "Oh, this dead person can confirm me, but Athey're dead so you'll just have to take my word for it!", yeah right.

I'm willing to hammer FakeGod. I've given many reasons I'm suspicious of him (and some more in this post) and he hasn't given any satisfactory explanation.

[charter]

What is your role, exactly?

I can kind of see this making sense in a real vague sort of way. The biggest thing you have going for your claim, is that Chronopie hinted that he was a semi confirmable town role, which supports what you're claiming, but which is not what he flipped at all. The biggest thing against your claim is that Chronopie flipped Vanilla Town, which does not support your claim at all.

However, you still haven't addressed any of the concerns anyone has brought up against you. I'm currently going through an internal struggle of not lynching you, but then I keep thinking that if whoever gets lynched today isn't scum, you're the first person I'm going to look at tomorrow, in which case it makes a great deal of sense to just lynch you today and get it over with. A good start would be to respond to the reasons people are voting you for instead of hiding behind a shaky claim.

Needless to say, if anyone has evidence or a claim that FakeGod is just making this up, you should disclose that.

[charter]

And also if you can post any flavor that supports your claim, that would be helpful (of course check with the mod first so you don't get modkilled).

[charter]

Real quick, I haven't read all this, but after thinking about it more, I do believe FakeGod, but I still think he needs to defend himself, because he hasn't done that.

Also, I would still like it if those voting me could say why they voted me instead of anyone else who didn't vote Dramonic.

[charter]

See, that disconnect in thinking was why I started off toDay voting you. You had dramonic as one of your suspicions, but wouldn't throw your support towards lynching one of your suspicions because other people you were suspicious of also voted him.

Correct

You yourself list reasons why scum could possibly bus dramonic, but don't take that into account for the dramonic wagon.

What I listed are just some general reasons that scum bus. I don't think it's possible to figure out that scum are bussing each other on day one, that'd have been a ludicrous theory if I'd said yesterday "Hey guys, dramonic is scum and xxxx and yyyy are busing him". That's a really blatant scum tactic of tying townies to the lynch of your dying scumbuddy. So I basically picked FakeGod and Pom and Kitoari as more likely to be scum instead of dramonic. Turns out Dramonic was scum.

If that were the case, it'd be hard for you to ever be on a lynch if you avoided all lynches with people you suspected on them, especially if scum voted each other. I think it's meh reasoning for avoiding a wagon. The reason I'm really grilling you for this is because your suspicions throughout the game have mirrored mine to a degree (originally I had Pom & Max as my early suspects, you hounded on them later on for reasoning I could follow easily, etc....). So when I saw the disconnect in your dram reasoning & that just so happens to be the player who flips scum, it makes you suspect to me.

True, I suppose, but that's not really what happened here. This was a case of three people I suspected all voting another person a suspected. It makes it look much more likely that the three are more likely scum than the one.

Charter what do you think of the current Brandi v Pom exchange?

It has me thinking Brandi is scummalicious and I feel slightly better about Pom.

Not to mention that he jumps on my wagon like his life depended on it, but also his tone/style is incredibly different.

This is a character break, people. Don't forget it.

I'm not sure I see what you're talking about here. I have been expressing suspicion of you since yesterday. If I wanted to "jump on your wagon" I'd have just hammered you and been done with it.

Yes. I went from 0 votes to L-1 within matter of hours. Only a naive fool would say that scum had done nothing to help it out. Quicklynches are almost always bad for the town, and here is no exception. It seems extremely convenient when some of the players switched out and bandwagoned onto my wagon, as soon as I provided them an easy excuse to do so with. (my plan + my full claim)

Just want to make sure everyone knows that defending yourself with 'wagon speed' is a logical fallacy. Perfectly possible to go from 0 votes to L-1 very fast and be scum.

FakeGod is making this extremely difficult to believe he is town with how he's acting, but I think it would be better if we lynched Brandi, who absolutely refuses to post and is quite scummy to boot.

[charter]

I kind of mean to sound like a broken record, but I still think it very pertinent that those who were voting me earlier give a reason why they picked me over other non-Dramonic voters.

[charter]

I'll be able to post tonight, haven't been on MS much lately.

[charter]

This is in no order.

Alright, I still think Brandi is scum. I still have no clue why EVERYONE is COMPLETELY ignoring her and giving her a free pass. I notice that MaxMouse gets called out for fencesitting or whatever, but I feel like Brandi is an even better example of that.

I like Fishy's entrance, drawing attention to Maxmouse I see as very protown, since there's the easy targets of myself and FakeGod, and I know I'm town, and I think he is as well, but he doesn't go after us. Fishy's points about MaxMouse are pretty good, especially the one about MaxMouse bussing Dramonic.

I think Jarti's vote for Pie is pretty OMGUSy and Brandi's is scummy. I don't think starting up a wagon on Pie is smart for her if she's scum, but at that point I don't really see any good move for her as scum to make, the only wagons were ones she had already denounced, so I guess she had to do something. Voting Pie was as good as any.

Who do you think needs to better explain their reasoning?
Same goes to charter.

When I said that, FakeGod and Pie.

Pom hasn't responded to my response to her case, so still waiting on that, if it's coming.

Pom has scooted up to my number two pick for scum right now due to a combination of post 474 which is pretty contradictory and her general response to FakeGod's claim, which was full of testing the waters and introducing doubt.

@Everyone, what is your read of Brandi? "I don't have one" is not an acceptable answer.

[charter]

@charter: Brandi is a bit lurky and asks a lot of questions that she doesn't follow up on. But it goes along with her actions in the last game I played with her (where she was town). So, I'm getting a town read on her at the moment.

I'm sorry, but that's the dumbest reason to clear someone I've ever heard of. What's to stop her from doing that as scum, where it's much more beneficial than when she's town.

[charter]

and I'm going to unvote: Charter The way that he continually asks people to restate their case against him and so on, even after people on his wagon went after chasing another target (me in this case), seems to me as that he is a townie who is eager to clear his name, not a scum who wouldn't attract attention to himself.

I actually think the opposite as true.

People are usually bad at casing and just throw around votes. These are the worst kinds of votes for scum because there is the danger of a wagon forming without them being able to do anything to refute it. So they ask for the case.

I think that as town you should want to quash crappy cases as well, rather than drop it and hope nobody remembers about you. I think it goes both ways and is something desirable for any alignment.

MaxMouse's 'content' post there contained very little for being such a massive post, and was mostly IIOA.

Re: flip flopping on my opinion of your vote, Fishy explained his thinking behind what he thought pretty well. I spent about 5 seconds to form my opinion, so looking at it from the other angle, it made a good bit of sense.
Re: "FakeGod is making this extremely difficult to believe he is town with how he's acting", I still thought he was town there, but his recent play right before I said that was pretty horrible.

[charter]

Four people posted and no one gave their read on Brandi. Tsk tsk.

[charter]

Four people posted and no one gave their read on Brandi. Tsk tsk.

but Charter, you asked this first....

I kind of mean to sound like a broken record, but I still think it very pertinent that those who were voting me earlier give a reason why they picked me over other non-Dramonic voters.

After I asked this, the last people stated their reason.

Did you read my ISOs on Jarti, Pom, and Pie? What's your opinion?

No, I didn't read that gigantic post. Just now I glanced at it, and you just summarize posts, you didn't tell us anything new.

Also, you've been attacking FG for a while yet you consider him to be an "EASY TARGET" - are you now saying you find him to be town now? Please elaborate on this.

I thought he was scum, but his claim changed that, which I've said a few times since Chrono's breadcrumbs seem to support it. If FakeGod is town, I don't think there's any doubt that he's an easy target for scum to go after.

I'm gonna have to go back and look at Pie some more, since post 514 looks like a desperate attempt to cling to a FakeGod lynch.

[charter]

I guess, I was asking more to catch people changing their story later on, not try and find any slipups in their story (though if it happened I wouldn't complain).

(Jarti wanted you to ISO people)

[charter]

Alright, Brandi/Pie scumteam. Let's consolidate the votes on one of them. There's no possible way you can have a town read that strong on Brandi unless you are trying to buddy up to her to get her to stop voting your or you were looking to buy town points after she died or she's your scumbuddy.

And he'd lynch Pom because she "hasn't stood out to me that much that game, seems like she's trying to blend in a bit" which is what Brandi is doing, but about ten times more. I'd also say MaxMouse does that and his reason that he suspects MaxMouse isn't being applied to everyone, else he'd have more suspects now. He's also clinging to a FakeGod lynch way too long.

unvote, vote Pie

[charter]

Alamaster and Pom, can I get your reasons for voting Brandi? And way to make me look dumb, voting Brandi right after I unvote...

unvote, vote Brandi

Also, out of game, but I live an hour from Roanoke in Lynchburg, Inflatable. Small world.

[charter]

You got a name to go with that claim or some flavor or any kind of reason why we shouldn't lynch you?

[charter]

Why did you protect Alamaster?

[charter]

Brandi's claim fits in with her play, IMO. And I'm okay with this:

Unvote, Vote: Pom

How do you figure this?

[charter]

I'm pretty sure our last two scum are Pie and Brandi (with a slim chance of MaxMouse). I'd be shocked if Pie isn't scum with this recent surge in scummatude. Right here, he says unexplained votes can be scummy, and one page ago, he makes one himself (on Pom) who is now scummy for doing it herself. His second point is just so farfetched, I'm at a loss for words.

unvote, vote Pie

[charter]

Pie's role ranks up there with some of the most useless roles I've ever seen, and the overwhelming majority of useless roles are poor scum inventions designed to introduce doubt into a lynch while providing little or no accountability.

Plus, the disconnect between being called a "hostage" and his role being a "weak name investigator" is quite extreme, even more so than FakeGod's 'non-talking mason' being a 'vanilla townie'.

I think we either lynch someone who has already claimed, or we massclaim, since at this point about half the town has claimed, HOWEVER, no one has claimed a role that I would mind losing, so that leaves us with lynch someone who has already claimed.

To be honest, this looks like he's a mafia traitor who doesn't know who the mafia are and is a very late attempt at revealing himself to the mafia, or the opposite is true, he knows Seto is a traitor and is fishing for his mafia buddy.

Of course, this throws a rather large wrench in to my Brandi/Pie scumteam, but possible that Brandi didn't claim her real name. Much to think about...

[charter]

Do either of you have any basis which makes the scenario you suspect "likely"?

[charter]

Vote Brandi

I am like 99% sure she is scum.

[charter]

No one else should claim at all unless you have a good reason to, as in, information that the person we're going to lynch is town or you know who the scum is.

[charter]

FakeGod, do you have to shoot at night?

Also, I couldn't find any breadcrumb from Pom about who she investigated night one...

[charter]

Also Lol at still going after FakeGod. Pie tried that yesterday, and look where it got him, and now he's a VIG and we've seen him kill. There's really zero room for FakeGod to be scum.

[charter]

No one else should claim at all unless you have a good reason to, as in, information that the person we're going to lynch is town or you know who the scum is.

Actually, upon reflection, I think a massclaim is in order today, at least massnameclaim, since a mislynch and no vig, would probably leave us with 4 alive tomorrow, and mislynch and misvig would leave us with 3, so better to massclaim before LYLO and lock the scum down in their claim.

I believe FG - claiming vig as SK is a sure road to a loss. FG wasn't under any particular pressure late yesterday, and I just can't see that claim coming from scum.

Yeah, as soon as you claim a killing role when you're a SK, your chance to win immediately drops to 0%. If FakeGod is a SK, his chances are still very low, BUT, him being a SK makes zero sense from a balance standpoint in this game. That would be FIVE antitown roles (lyncher, SK, 3 mafia), which quite frankly seems impossible.

I'll go ahead and start a massclaim. I'm Yugi. I'm not claiming my role yet, I will after everyone at least nameclaims, but I want to see who claims a certain role, first.

Brandi is still really obvious scum flailing around now that she's about to lose the game. She's given zero reason for why I'm mafia, and I doubt she ever will. I understand what Fishy is saying about not lynching her to ensure FakeGod lives, but no one else is within miles of her scummatude. I want to see what MaxMouse and Fishy claim before rereading to see if someone else might be scum.

Brandi is also clearly barking up the wrong tree with me being scum, which I'm sure when I claim my role will resolve any doubt that I'm town.

[charter]

Ok, so your reason is OMGUS. That's what I figured.

[charter]

I read your post. You haven't gotten down to just me by process of elimination, I don't see you ruling out MaxMouse or Fishy. Tunneling is not scummy. How is lasering in on one player instead of being open to multiple lynches more beneficial to scum than town?

Just to humor you, if you were town (which I'd only believe after seeing the mod post it), I'd say the last scum is between whichever of Fishy or Maxmouse doesn't claim the role I know is out there and Bv (since I still have no clue what BV's role does or why he claimed).

Speaking of which, I think Maxmouse should claim first, then Fishy.

[charter]

So I just reread Bv looking for when and how he claimed. Clearly I had not read any of his posts this entire game, because he is incredibly scummy. I'll elaborate more when I get time.

[charter]

I'm Yugi, I'm a commuter, but my Pm says I don't know which nights I control it. I'm not saying which nights I tried to commute on, since I don't think scum know, and telling them if they can kill me tonight seems like a dumb idea.

Does anyone have any idea who would control it? My Pm says it's an ancient spirit. I'm thinking it might be our last scum who can control it.

[charter]

Commuting stops all night actions from targeting me, from the times I've been commuter before, I don't see why it would be any different here.

It says I don't know which nights I control it and which nights I don't, I think I can control it some nights.

Oh wait, I just reread some clarifications I got from the mod pregame, and I automatically commute every other night, but I don't know which nights I do. It also makes me believe there's another commuter out there as well. I commute one night, them the next, and so on, is what I reckon.

[charter]

Reading MM's iso, I notice a couple of fairly good points on charter - namely the reversal of his reads on MM's part in dram's wagon and on FG, just after my entry to the game. He had thought MM looked town for attacking charter; he then agreed with my bussing theory. He had thought FG was making it "extremely difficult to believe he's town with the way he's acting"; this changes to charter thinking he's town. I don't have time to look right now, but I don't recall where these changes came from; I'll look later today to see if there are explanations in charter's posts.

No. First off, his post was scummy. Second, I responded to his points against me, including these ones you list here, and no one said anything about my rebuttal, so I assume that means the answers were satisfactory and alleviated concerns people had about me. If you think his points are valid, why does it take you ten pages to say so?

[charter]

Lol, whoops. I'm rereading bits and pieces of the game, and I just noticed that Pom was Yami, and that makes the most sense for someone who would be sharing my role. I could have sworn I checked the first post for dead names to see if Yami was there, but I must have missed it.

Anyway, I've noticed some extremely scummy things concerning MaxMouse (what I'd consider video evidence of him being mafia gunning someone down in a dark ally, except there's video cameras all over the alley and it's a bright summer day). About to highlight these as well as what I thought was scummy about Maxmouse, and which I'd prefer to lynch and why.

[charter]

Alright, here's my take on Bv. The epitome of lurker/active lurker. He RVS votes Princess, then changes it to Kitoari once the wagon on BelovedPrincess falls apart and one springs up on Kitoari. He's said virtually nothing in between. Then, another seven posts of nothing, until he unvotes Kitoari to revote Kitoari, WHILE SAYING "I have to admit that, while the Dramonic wagon has some really good points, none of it is particularly scummy. I've played with Dram before, and this is the same way he usually plays." He defends dramonic. That's Exhibit A.

Then he proclaims with certainty that we only have one scum left (after dramonic is lynched) and he proceeds to vote Alamaster saying that Dramonic was distancing from Alamaster. He provides no evidence of this nor provides any reasons to suspect that Alamaster was doing anything other than scumhunting. However, he's gone straight to 'bussing' which is a crap reason to vote someone over right out of the gate day two. He says absolutely nothing more about Alamaster after this vote. That's Exhibit B.

About another 7 posts of useless dice rolling, then he says "Alrighty then. I'll reread the thread tomorrow and get my thoughts up, hopefully. Gut is telling me that Kit is still the right play, but I'd like to back that up with a real case." of which it looks like he's totally dropped Alamaster from his suspicions (this post occurs shortly after Alamaster claims double voter) but there's no unvote or anything.

Then we get to the debate about FakeGod's claim of which I suspected that scum were busy posting about this since it's something they can easily post about, they can easily make doubtful posts like 'that role is made up', and generally other fake scumhunting (though at the time I internally suspected Pom). He starts going on about how confirmed townies (masons) are unlikely to exist, which is total crap, since masons are in lots of games. Exhibit C.

MASSIVE RED FLAG ALERT

In response to Pie's claim, "My PM calls me Duke Devlin, not just Duke.

Also, seeing as we've already had one set of siblings in this game, I don't think a second one all that unlikely."

Looking back on this, this is the atom bomb of scumminess for this game. He has now FLIP FLOPPED ON ONE HIS MAJOR REASONS FOR SUSPECTING FAKEGOD'S CLAIM ONCE PIE'S CLAIM HAS COME IN TO QUESTION. He is supporting Pie's claim since it's likely that there are multiple sibling type roles in the game, but he CONTINUES to go after FakeGod. This hypocrisy is scummy, but when you take into account he did it specifically to defend Pie (of whom he had never mentioned in the entire game) who was scum who had just introduced a dubious claim, I can't see any way to dismiss it. I personally couldn't dismiss how I can count the number of "content" posts he has on one hand (and I'm not sure how that fact has escaped me this long). I also think his claim falls into that category of "useless scum roles scum claim without accountability", but someone could argue it's not a scum claim. I say BV is active lurking up a storm because the bulk of his posts are in response to events happening with relatively little significance on the game, but he posts a bunch in response to them, and posts virtually no scumhunting initiated by him. However, there's no explaining away how he defended dramonic and Pie's claim, and how the ratio of his 'defending scum' to 'other posts containing content', the ratio is pretty much 1:1.

As far as my qualms with Brandi go, upon rereading Bv, she doesn't even compare.

unvote, vote BV

Now on to MaxMouse.

[charter]

No no no...

Rereading MaxMouse, I was right with my initial thinking that he's not scum with dramonic. He actually does pretty well on the scumhunting front, other than the fact that he's more reactionary as opposed to proactive.

About the biggest things I have problems with concerning him is his giant post which was basically a summary of the game and his claiming never having done an ISO, which seems pretty dubious, but possible. He was pretty much absent for the Pie lynch, so nothing to analyze there.

Basically, I don't think he's scum. There's some questionable actions, but there's really no connections between him and dramonic and Pie. I'm confident that a BV lynch will end this game with a town win.

I think that anyone who doesn't agree with my points against BV (mainly the first and last, the middle two aren't that amazing) to explain why they don't agree and what they think was BV's motivation behind making those comments.

[charter]

Well, the claim itself, I see no reason to think that makes him town, it's an incredibly pointless role from what I see. I suppose you could argue the manner he claimed is town, but I'd contest that claiming out of the blue like that doesn't make a whole lot of sense as either alignment. I don't see why he'd claim it regardless of his alignment, but maybe he just did it because 'it would be dumb to do as scum'. I was just scum and invented a claim for myself mid day one, and everyone believed it, so I'm not ruling it out.

[charter]

Good stuff. Now we need to get Bv in here.

MOD, request prod on Bv please.

ATTENTION DUELISTS

MY HAIR WOULD LIKE TO ANNOUNCE THE VOTECOUNT!

Brandi (0) -
bv310 (2) - Charter, Fishythefish
charter (0) -
FakeGod (1) - bv310
Fishythefish (0) -
MaxMouse (0) -

6 alive, 4 to lynch

[charter]

No.

This is our last scum. Brandi, FakeGod and Maxmouse, if you have any questions, I'll be happy to elaborate.

[charter]

That's fine. I'm the SK.

[charter]

Bv's actually claim is really weird. That role seems like it's fabricated, since it relies on randomness, and roles that rely on random chance are bastard modding, of which I enter every game assuming isn't the case.

And then there's the fact that no one can confirm his role, and it's a really weak claim.

Did you read post 744? What is your opinion of it? I ask because you managed to come back from not posting and say not a damn thing.

[charter]

This is getting a little ridiculous. We have Brandi waiting for Maxmouse to start talking. And we have Maxmouse waiting for FakeGod to start talking. Both of you don't need someone else in order to participate.

[charter]

Hammer

[charter]

FakeGod, anyone can claim any role they want, that doesn't make them scum. Why do you think scum wouldn't continue the charade?

[charter]

Of couse scum would. But there's an off chance that bv's actually some sort of a cop.

charter, if you had to lynch between the VTs, who would it be?

That's either Maxmouse or Fishy. To be honest, it's a tough call. Without having reread to see what the dead scum said about them, I'd say Fishy right now, based on his fixation with MaxMouse, and if Bv is actually not scum (which I highly doubt), then he's set himself up very nicely.

I'll reread more tomorrow and give a better answer.

[charter]

Yeah, I think that's a pretty good point. If Fishy is scum, he argued pretty hard for a scenario that brings him a near zero chance of winning (assuming he isn't a roleblocker, but since Bv claimed a role day two, you'd have thought he'd been blocked night two, unless of course he is scum...)
I dunno, like I said, it's a tough call, cause I doubt either of you is scum. I'd still pick Brandi over either of you.

To answer your questions, Fishy, I hadn't remember you arguing for Brandi to stay alive, so that didn't factor in to my thinking, but I was thinking that if you're scum, then there's the easy lynch of Bv today, and there is guaranteed to be someone scummier than you alive tomorrow (or at least someone you'll have an easy time painting as scum). I say you have a fixation with MaxMouse because you keep thinking he's scum, and you talk about him and vote him way more than everyone else, and he just doesn't seem all that scummy to most of us. I suppose there's nothing wrong with it, but if Bv were to flip town, the next day you could be like 'I told you guys MaxMouse is scum'. I dunno, I get some pretty wild theories in my head.

Like I said, I'd have to reread the dead scum to see if either you or MaxMouse is a plausible partner for either, but I'm still really convinced that Bv is the way to go.

[charter]

Alright, based of Pie's posts, unless he was trying to bus BOTH of his partners (which I think is unlikely), it's pretty obvious Kitoari, FakeGod (especially FakeGod), and to a lesser extent, myself aren't his scumbuddies. Pie defends Bv pretty hard around the 333,348 post range. Pie comments that he thinks Brandi is town, but it doesn't look like the 'defend my buddy' kind, as it does with Bv.

Dramonic's posts were essentially useless for analyzing.

After rereading the dead scum, BV makes a ton of sense as their buddy, and due to their complete ignoring MaxMouse, he's my second option.

[charter]

I'll believe Bv is a traitor when I see it, though he's obviously scum. There was the evidence of Pie looking for a traitor, but Bv is so concretely connected to only the two dead scum, that I find it highly implausible that he didn't know who they were. It's completely possible that Bv knew who they were, but they didn't know who he was (or maybe even if he was out there). I was recently a mafia traitor where I knew who the two scum were, but they didn't even know I was out there. So if Bv does flip traitor, that's definitely what we're dealing with, but I don't see how that is of any consequence.

I still find it nearly impossible for us to have a SK, since 5 anti town roles makes a town win pretty much impossible. However, it looks to me like FakeGod will be our SK, which is why if you're SK, you never ever for any reason whatsoever claim to be able to kill.

Guess we'll just have to wait for the mod to get here.

[charter]

And also, I think that if you're a mafia traitor, you might be able to kill if your buddies are dead. I'll have to go do some research on this, I've been a mafia traitor like four or five times, but I don't think this scenario ever came up.

[charter]

No, if you're town, you should definitely shoot. If there's two kills tonight, then it's very unlikely you're the SK, with the added bonus that the SK might get shot during the night.

Then, assuming you live through the night, you pretty much decide who gets lynched tomorrow (if there's two night kills, so three people left), and if that's wrong, you shoot the other person and we pray they aren't NK immune, and the worst case is a tie (which we shouldn't be playing for...). But you have two chances to kill the SK, tonight and the lynch tomorrow, so I hope you get it right.

I still reckon Bv is full of it and this game is about to be over, but must prepare for any scenario.

[charter]

I think it's better if you save killing me for a lynch (if you think I'm a SK) since I might be immune to NK's tonight or tomorrow night. Pretty obvious it was a joke, I didn't even think about a SK then.

[charter]

Good work town.

I'm still trying to get over the five antitown roles in a game.

[charter]

When the Lyncher is targeting the scum Godfather it's really more like four . . .

Not at all. He's not scumhunting, he's hunting for that player. If he had claimed lyncher, we really have no choice but to lynch him immediately.

I don't think you guys realize the severity of five anti town roles. What if there was a day one mislynch, night one, two townies dead. Now it's 4 town, vs 3 scum, vs SK, vs lyncher. That might be technically winnable for town (though it would require some amazing doc/commuter luck), but in reality, the game would have been lost night one.

[charter]

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