Newbie 973: (Day 4)

[Equinox]

Hello. I am one of the semi-experienced (SE) players in this game. As an SE player, I know a thing or two about how Mafia works, but I'm still learning the ropes. I'm willing to answer any questions you may have about gameplay during the game, though it might be better to listen to the IC.

Vote: Ant_to_the_max

Too many underscores -- surely a sign of scum!

[Equinox]

This is the most interesting RVS I have ever seen.

Unvote, Vote: chihuahua0

...for attempting to buddy up to My Milked Eek!

[Equinox]

Ah Ha!

FOS: Equinox.

People who buddy up are considered scum. You been warned.

Ah, but I am not the one calling My Milked Eek's vote a good vote. Nor am I the one happily jumping onto an L-3 wagon!

[Equinox]

I am wondering why you didn't vote in your first post. while you did vote in your second post. Are you scum with equinox/ant?

Are you suggesting that I distanced myself from Ant_to_the_max with a random vote? That's an odd accusation to make.

[Equinox]

While that is a possibility, I was asking brej if he was scum with you or ant. I was not implying you two (equi and ant) to be scum together though. To be honest, the thought didn't cross my mind until you mentioned it.

Ah, I misread your post. Still, I agree it's possible that scum would try to distance in RVS... except it wouldn't be that much of a significant action, since it

is

a random vote. My jumping on chihuahua0 might be better classified as distancing (or even bussing, since I'm formally accusing him), if indeed I am scum.

Since I'm using a lot of jargon, I'm going to provide a few definitions.

Distancing: Scum will try to argue with each other or accuse each other to sever any links other players may see between them.

Bussing: Scum may even throw their partner under a proverbial bus by lynching them or pushing for their lynch.

[Equinox]

No. I'm just zooming in at a certain person and see if he/she says something that suggest that he/she's Mafia.

While pressuring someone is a good way to test their reactions and see if they are mafia, it's a bad idea to actually say you're pressuring them -- you have to pretend it's the real thing. I realize you had to respond to My Milked Eek's question, though, so you probably didn't have any other way to say you didn't actually suspect me. (Or do you?)

[Equinox]

Why are you voting chihuahua exactly?

For his jump to your vote on Ant_to_the_max and the accompanying "I agree with your vote." Sounds like scum buddying up to a town(?) player to me.

[Equinox]

Anything wrong with wagoning?

No. Early wagons are good. I didn't like the "I agree with your vote" part, though, so I decided to question chihuahua0 about it.

[Equinox]

This one really fast-moving game. I LOVE IT.

EBWOPreview: I apologize for the wall of quotes.

I only voted for you because it seems like the

better players think you're scum

.

Don't follow the ICs and SEs just because they are experienced; they could be mafia jumping on Brejnev. We're good to listen to for things like game mechanics, what is and isn't a tell, game play in certain situations, etc., but when we're scum hunting, we're playing to our win condition. Always be careful.

I'll note that you're quite happy to follow the IC, though. This isn't the first time.

Wow, I was waiting for someone to accuse me of that lol, so glad you noticed.

Apparently, this is the post in contention. What I find interesting is Brejnev knows he hasn't been contributing much, yet he did nothing to fix it. However, this statement itself is not a scum tell; I can see newb town saying this, too. Worth an IGMEOY (I've Got My Eye On You) but not an actual vote, IMO.

I seemed to draw attention to myself so not only did the cop use his night action on me, but the mafia also decided it would be in the best interest to kill me that night

As a townie, you shouldn't fear the mafia killing you during the night. It means you're doing something right. Your number one objective is to find the scum; getting night-killed just happens to be an occupational hazard. In the event that you die, we use what you've left behind, so dying isn't so bad.

However, the vote stays as I don't think I have enough evidence to suspect either of the above and so will continue to place random votes.

But you do suspect us, correct? Therefore, you shouldn't be placing random votes anymore. Either question us to generate more evidence, or vote us and pressure us into responding. Placing random votes seems, to me, to be a really easy cop-out when one of us gets lynched and flips town. Scummy!

Tell me how I can help town and I will

Scum hunting. Take stances, question people, pressure scum, and be aggressive.

I can see a newbie saying this, but what's going through my head right now is: If Brejnev is town, there should be no need to ask this question at all; if Brejnev is scum, perhaps there is reason because scum hunting won't come so naturally then.

Thinking about it, Equionx is pretty much clear for now. I'm going to shift my vote at the end of my post.

While I am glad that you've cleared me, what I find interesting is you backed down after you were pressured by ZazieR.

If anyone can point out to me why exactly that's scummy, then sure, let's go, but right now I only see a mindless wagon over a stupid reason.

Explain why you feel the things that chihuahua0 are saying and doing are

not

scummy. I've outlined each post I had a problem with; I don't feel this is a mindless wagon. chiahuahua0 needs better explanations than "I like pressure votes," especially when he's showing signs of following authority.

I'd also like to know why you guys think I'm acting scummy.

Either a newb town question or a really, really scummy question. I'm going to assume the latter for the moment. Scum would need to know what they're doing wrong; otherwise, they have no way of knowing until Night 1 when they can talk with their partner. The other way to find out is to ask. Asking for reasoning behind votes is fine, but asking people why they think you're scummy is not so good. Why did you ask this question?

Also, Brejnev, this post and this post are useless. Speculating in this manner gets you nowhere because we have no way of knowing why scum do things without consulting a psychic.

however I don't think it matters anymore because you will find as way to criticise me regardless and I guess I will ultimately be lynched.

Don't give up! If you are town, you know the cases against you right now are wrong. You need to convince us of this fact. If you're scum, well, hey, we're correct. Still try to convince us we're wrong.

[Equinox]

I'm going to split up my wall of quotes into several smaller walls to make them somewhat easier to read. Please bear with me.

That post to me it seems you are distracting us from Ant and giving the attention to chi which i find slightly suspicious

Interesting accusation. I found nothing scummy from Ant_to_the_max; I see him more as a null read. I found chihuahua0 suspicious, so I focused on him.

Still trying to see how a good RVS should go.

Read some of the other games to see how their RVS went. RVS doesn't usually end this quickly.

Wait, could it be that Ant is lurking?

If Ant_to_the_max has been posting in other games but not this one, you have reason to worry. It seems he was simply offline, though.

First vote. "There's something fishy about her." How do you come to that conclusion when they didn't even post yet?

RVS vote, so this point you made against chihuahua0 is null.

ALSO TO EVERYONE ELSE, should we take that whole PMing comment as a scum sign?

I'm tempted, but it really could be that chihuahua0 was anxious to start and just took the initiative. Any speculation on that situation would be WIFOM and, therefore, useless.

otherwise on his game play I don't see anything that stands out from him. I will really have to wait until day 2 before I can get a feel on him.

Why wait until Day 2? Why not try to get a read now? Ask questions. Use pressure.

[Equinox]

I will ask this innocent question again: Why do you think I am scummy, what have I done to arouse your suspicions? Why can't we have a proper trial in which the defendent is accused, the reasons for which being given, and is given the opportunity to defend themselves?

AFAIK, the people who have voted against you provided their reasons. Further, a vote might not necessarily be a declaration to lynch; it could be used to pressure someone into acting or responding. We're not a court of law. We're an angry lynch mob.

Furthermore I would also like to say that as I will be as of tomorrow in another country for a week it will be very hard for me to post if I do post at all and I hope I won't be kicked out of the game because of that (will I?).

Post a bold notification so the moderator will know that you'll be away.

Standard procedure is to officially prod (send a PM reminder) after 72 hours of inactivity and to replace if nothing is done 48 hours following the prod. You may be prodded after 48 hours of inactivity by player request.

I agree about the posting in the row stuff. I'll try to do it less often.

When are you going to respond to people's accusations against you?

Forgot to mention: Deadline is on July 9 at 11:59 PM.

Mod: What time zone?

[Equinox]

I suppose making wall of quotes will be my standard for this game. Sorry. I'll split it up if it gets too long.

I just find it frustrating, as well as suspicious, that after numerous people listed things they wanted Chi0 to respond to and answer, the very first thing he does is just respond about the posting in a row thing. Which I don't think is a big deal, so long as the posts contribute and actually have content. Not even a mention of the accusations against him...

I'll throw this gem right to My Milked Eek. How does this tell you that chihuahua0 is "obviously newb town"? If you think ignoring newbie questions is a newbie tell, I'm going to argue that it's a newbie tell for

both

factions, not just town, so I fail to see how we're missing the obvious here.

Maybe I went too gun-ho while accusing the suspects, and now I'm in a bad postion. I'll tone down a little bit and be more passitve on finding the enemy.

What we're accusing you of is not being too active but of playing "follow the leader." If you did your votes and pressuring independently, I wouldn't have had a problem, but you explicitly followed My Milked Eek. That irks me some.

Don't be a passive scum hunter. It's not an effective technique, and you'll be depending on other people's cases if you're not pursuing your own; following someone is never a good idea in Mafia.

I feel that he FoS'd Twinkie only because he thought that might be a good distraction from himself and i am getting a feeling that might be a scum tell,

In a way, self-preservation is a newbie tell -- I've seen both newbie town and newbie scum do it, though scum will do it more often in general. Nobody wants to get lynched, so it's a natural response for chihuahua0.

And by the way, I can't find all of the accusations/questions thrown at me.

They're peppered throughout the thread. Don't skim. This is your defense; you need to know what we're saying about you so you can respond appropriately.

In summary, though, I'm accusing you of buddying up to My Milked Eek and following what the "better players" are doing rather than building cases independently. The former is what I have deduced from your statements to My Milked Eek; the latter is what you have said yourself.

I can definitely see a you-C0 scumteam.

I doubt My Milked Eek would be defending chihuahua0 in this manner if they are both scum. It's more likely that chihuahua0 really is town, and My Milked Eek is trying to build town credential and trust with this defense. I fail to see the obvious, and apparently, neither do the rest of you, so that claim is a bit dubious until it's explained better.

The wagon on c0 is bad. c0 is a pretty obvious newbtown.

Pretty obvious

newb

town

. If chihuahua0 really is town as you say, then most of what he's doing are null tells at best, not town tells. I don't know why you feel it's so obvious.

In fact, I'm beginning to think -- with your heavy insistence -- that chihuahua0 really is town, and you have a reason for knowing why.

I don't like lynching town ICs, so this explanation had better be awesome.

Stop setting up for a backpedal on day 2. You went from "newbtown" to "scum" in a matter of +-3 paragraphs and in every one of them you said something along the lines of "brej could be town, but he could also be scum". You're not committing to an opinion on brej at all, you're just dancing around the issue.

Brejnev is null. Too bad that wasn't so obvious. I like startransmission's post, though, so I'm not reading "null" so much anymore.

1. lol, a me-c0 team would be stupid, nice try though,

I'm just here white-knighting a wagon on a town read.

2. The wagon is crap. Deny it as much as you will, it still is. (more on this later)

Do you realize how scummy that bolded part appears right now? If chihuahua0 flips town, you'll be able to say, "I told you so!" and get some town credential for not hopping onto a scum-loved wagon. Yuck.

It's not I who brought up the distancing wifom, equinox did. I merely pushed the button on brejnev by asking him why he did not random vote and said "are you scum with equinox perhaps?" (paraphrased) and Equinox came in and pulled this distancing wifom crap on me. Equinox' reaction in this does not add up and smells fishy.

I did NOT bring up the distancing to supplement any of my cases, as you seem to imply here. It was idle speculation.

Splitting off next post from this wall so it doesn't get caught in the sea of words.

[Equinox]

With My Milked Eek's heavy insistence, I'm beginning to think chihuahua0 really is town. However, My Milked Eek is not building an actual defense of chihuahua0 and instead opts for the mysterious and a suggestion that we look up the "obvious" ourselves. Further, My Milked Eek is trying to save the "I told you so!" line for the event that chihuahua0 gets lynched.

I conclude chihuahua0 is town based on MME's defense.

Unvote, Vote: My Milked Eek

[Equinox]

And I said I would be passive on finding the enemy because everything I been saying had been used as evindence against me.

Everything you say in Mafia can and will be

taken out of context and

used against you. It's the nature of the beast.

Anyone else find C0's vote scummy? I am almost certain that he voted MME because he was the only other wagon than himself.

Nobody wants to be lynched. I can see both chihuahua0-town and chihuahua0-scum doing this, so this vote switch to an equally viable wagon is not scummy.

I'm curious about this accusation from you, though.

[Equinox]

From the assumption that you are town, yes, I can see why you'd try to save a solid town read. The problem I'm having is why you have such a solid read when neither of the SEs and none of the other newbies are getting that same read.

Unless, of course, you

really

think that I would not let you lynch a village idiot as scum. Get real.

Stranger things have happened, so this is a null tell for me.

Looking forward to seeing your big post.

[Equinox]

Hmm... It seems I'm focusing on chihuahua0 and My Milked Eek to the exclusion of other players. Bad habit. This is an example of what we usually call "tunneling" -- tunnel vision when pursuing mafia.

I'm going to run through the thread to pick up on what I've missed. In particular, I'm going to investigate MME's claim that there is a solid town tell for chihuahua0, and I'm going to investigate the cases against chihuahua0. Now that I've thought about it, what chihuahua0 said about being attacked regardless of what step he takes is interesting, and Twinkie's post immediately following that really stood out.

But that long post is going to wait until I get home.

[Equinox]

First, I'm going to respond to the posts that have appeared since my last post, and then I'll go back through the thread. Oh, yeah, I'm typing this as I go, so none of that "you got pressured into unvoting" crap.

Hmm... I really, really like My Milked Eek's post here. It's solid, and it is very well backed and reasoned, even if My Milked Eek admits to getting gut reads (which is fine by me, unless it's excessive -- here, it is not). Therefore, it's unlikely that My Milked Eek is just randomly defending.

Unvote

I'm also glad Equinox brought his tunneling up himself, saves me the effort of doing it.

Heh. It's a habit that I fall into if I don't watch my step. Backed up by meta, if you do that sort of thing.

However, My Milked Eek, I still have the FOS on you. Bwahahaha!

Did you find any aspect of My Milked Eek's posts unsatisfactory?

BTW, I can't properly respond to ZazieR's posts until I've done my reread, as it pertains to players to whom I really haven't paid as much attention as I should have. If I forget to do this when I finally post again and you were looking for it, remind me; it's unlikely that I'm forgetting on purpose.

I find it interesting that you question MMEek about his statements of thinking that Chi0 is town, yet it's you who's defending Brej's actions. So a question: For what reason should we believe that you are town defending town/scum and not scum defending newbtown, what you're accusing MMEek off?

It's a question of perception. I know what I am, so I

sorta

know what I'm doing. I don't know My Milked Eek, so I can't be sure of My Milked Eek's motivation for defending chihuahua0; the best way to find out was to point a finger and get an answer, which I got and am happy with for right now. I understand you wouldn't know this, since you don't know me or my motivation for "defending" Brejnev.

As for my answer: I did not call Brejnev a newbie

town

; I only called him a newbie, by which I mean I'm getting null reads from potentially newbie/scummy things he's done. The reason for my fence-sitting was I was faced with two or more conflicting reasons behind Brejnev's actions, so I didn't get a solid read. Since I didn't get a solid scum read, I defended him when people thought what he did was surefire, 100% scummy. Hey, I defend my nulls sometimes. (Since I brought up meta... yeah, I don't remember if I have a history of doing that. I guess I'm setting this precedent now.)

But another thing, Equi. The difference between asking for the reason behind a vote and asking why players think you are scummy?

The phrasing.

Asking why you think I am scummy places the focus on me -- what am

I

doing wrong? The problem I have with this is I should know that I'm not doing anything wrong, since I am town and I'm actively hunting scum; therefore, what's wrong is

you

for not interpreting my actions correctly. Narcissistic, perhaps, but that's the reasoning on which I base my scum read on questions like, "Why do you think I'm scummy?" or "Why me?"

Asking for the reasoning behind the vote... is actually phrased quite differently than how I said that in my previous post. I don't have any examples off the top of my head at the moment, but the idea is there's something wrong with your vote if it isn't already backed by some well-reasoned logic.

Gut is so activated here. It gives me the impression that you know that MMEek will turn up town.
Also, reason why you persue Chi0's following 'the leader' when it comes to me or MMEek or me, but not when it comes to you?
Last, I do not like it how you try to discredit MMEek's town read by stating that only he sees it.

1. I don't know that My Milked Eek is town. I'll admit to

really

bad phrasing there (well worth a lynch, actually!), but it's due to me not actually having as solid of a scum read as I claim (part of the "confidence" was the need to pressure).
2. The people who followed me had some of their own reasons stated in their posts, so I chose not to pursue them. The other reason is I was too busy tunneling -- see above admissions.
3. I didn't see anyone else calling chihuahua0 town. Maybe I missed it? Wouldn't be my first time.

5. It's a bad thing if you do more IC stuff than scum hunting.

In what way has My Milked Eek focused more on IC stuff than scum hunting?

Okay. Give me some time to run through the thread -- though I suspect we'll get 4 more pages by the time I'm done up to this point. THAT'S NOT A BAD THING. <3

EBWOPreview: Holy crap, I almost lost my post. If you're writing a long post, don't forget to keep a copy on your Clipboard or save it in Notepad before clicking "Submit," in case your login session times out while you're writing.

[Equinox]

FLUFF POST. NO ACTUAL GAME CONTENT.

I promised I'd have a large post with reads and stuff based on an entire reread by the end of today, but I have a wicked dizzy spell right now, so I can't work on that until morning at least. Might not be until late tomorrow when I get it done. Sorry. >_<

[Equinox]

FLUFF POST. NO ACTUAL GAME CONTENT.

Also a prod dodger post.

I finally got my unhindered and unlimited Internet access back. I sincerely apologize for the huge delay. I didn't expect it to hit this soon.

What I'm going to do now is run through the thread and respond to everything in one go. The reason for this is I want to look again at what's going on and see if it changes things any -- and I expect it will, considering the tunneling I've been doing -- and then answer with hopefully everything in mind, rather than a cherry-picked few. >_>;

Give me a few hours to do that.

[Equinox]

This page is filled with "I'm coming back later" posts. Fascinating!

That said, I haven't had the chance to finish my read yet. I'm free the whole day today, though, so I will be able to get something up really soon.

For some actual content that's not actual game content...

I will vote No Lynch until someone can convince me someone else is scum.

There are some situations where No Lynch would be acceptable, but Day 1 is not one of them.

Townies have only weapon they can use to kill the mafia, so it's in their best interests to lynch as often as possible. The idea is to get rid of the mafia, and failing that, to narrow down the list of suspects.

The only time townies should No Lynch is when it is mislynch-and-lose ("MyLo"): Lynching the mafia would win the game, lynching a townie would lose the game, but not lynching gives town one more day to make a decision. An example of this would be 3 townies to 1 mafia.

Since I'm talking about MyLo, I'll also bring up the lynch-or-lose ("LyLo") scenario: Lynching the mafia would win the game, but lynching a townie or not lynching would lose the game. An example of this would be 3 townies to 2 mafia.

Okay, I'm going to catch up on some sleep and then get readin'. Luckily for me, this game has rather short posts with few walls in between, so this shouldn't be too bad.

[Equinox]

Mod: I object to chihuahua0's motion.

We have prods and replacements for that. Besides, we need all the time we can get on Day 1.

I know I said I'd have something within a "few hours," but "few" is edging closer and closer to 48 hours... I'm seriously behind across the board. I'm working on that reread at the moment, though, so I predict that it will be done today, sleep be damned. If I can't get anything by tomorrow, I'm going to request replacement to not delay this game any longer. :S

[Equinox]

Usually, some prods get sent out, and if people don't respond, then they get replaced. That's for people who don't post for 72 hours, though; the problem here is serial "I'm here but I don't have anything" posting, so we're probably not going to fix this with prods for another couple of days.

I know I'm delaying because I'm doing a reread (for reals, BTW)... not sure about everyone else. o_O

[Equinox]

Okay, no replacement request from me because I'm halfway through, and I will be done in a few hours barring unexpected events. I'm getting pretty good reads here; more very soon. No broken promises... I promise.

I have something game-related I want to address.

Twinkie

From an isolation read, you seem to be set on a chihuahua0-My Milked Eek scum team. You posted reads on everyone else earlier in the game, but from what I see, you didn't mention anyone other than chihuahua0-MME after that. Do you have any other suspects?

(Note that I'm a bit sleepy, so I may have missed the answer to my question if you ever mentioned it. I'm just focusing on you because your activity in the first half of the thread caught my attention.)

[Equinox]

EBWOP: "Few hours" meaning... Monday afternoon/evening PDT. Just under 7 days from my last game-related post (discounting that one I just posted)... shameful. Sorry, everyone.

[Equinox]

OMG THIS POST IS NOT A LIE.

The world conspired against my complete reread of Newbie 973, but I have succeeded! I even have detailed notes up to page 7 for my future reference! I don't even know why I'm saying this; it must be because bedtime was a couple of hours ago!

Anyway...

chihuahua0's open admission of his PM to Blazie is a huge anti-scum tell, but his play this entire Day 1 has essentially voided whatever weight that anti-scum tell had. I'm reading null, leaning scummy, on chihuahua0; I am also reading this as a very easy lynch for scum to push, regardless of chihuahua0's alignment. Caution is recommended.

Oh, boy. I have no idea who should I vote for? My Milked Eek and Equinox are considered town and Ant is only at L-4...and I don't want to vote for myself.

Stop following the consensus. It doesn't matter what the entire town thinks; what matters is what

you

think of these players, and you have to convince us that what you think is correct.

Also, your votes have practically no weight because you've repeatedly stated you use them to pressure people, and you change votes very often, sometimes on the fly. In order to exert any pressure, your vote needs to appear real, and it needs to be threatening.

Moving on...

I'm having a difficult time reading both Morthas and Twinkie. They are pretty much null for now. I'll have to go back to my notes for my questions on Morthas's posts; I've asked all the questions I need to ask regarding Twinkie.

Flipping back to town on My Milked Eek, since that "chainsaw defense" is sufficiently backed, and questions and votes appear to be genuine. Leaning town on ZazieR for the same reason. I know both of them have me marked as scummy; that's not the reason I'm declaring town read on them. I'll also need to note that, as more experienced players, they're going to make better posts when it comes to scum hunting, so that sort of notches down the town reads. Yay for paranoia.

Null on both Brejnev and startransmission. startransmission's entry post is mostly analysis with few stances; startransmission has noted that it was mostly a post of notes, but I don't recall seeing any further stances. I'm also pretty sleepy, so I may have to revisit startransmission once I'm through with Morthas and Twinkie.

If I didn't mention you, don't worry about it. >_>

Get well soon, ZazieR!

Shooting for posting at least once per day from now on... I hate doing epic rereads, so I'm not going to be doing any more epic delays in the future, either.

[Equinox]

EBWOP: Sleepy. Forgot to post a disclaimer

that might get me lynched, but oh well

.

I know I didn't post actual scum reads. That's because I don't have any. My reads get more extreme as the game goes on, but they're closer to center for the most part on Day 1; for that reason, I'm going to pursue my null reads until I get my meter moving in either direction.

inb4 accusation of Equinox being scum for fence-sitting Day 1. That's how I roll.

[Equinox]

Let me clarify for a bit using MMEek's phrasing: How come MMEek's whiteknighting is scummy, while yours isn't?

Simple: I know what I am, but I don't know what My Milked Eek is. My double-standard is due to my knowledge of my own alignment. Obviously, that's not going to convince anyone, so here goes...

I actually felt chihuahua0 was scummy, whereas I was just null on Brejnev. chihuahua0 jumps on consensus; Brejnev is either panicky or self-preserving, both of which are null for me. My Milked Eek "white-knighting" chihuahua0 with such certainty, therefore, seemed suspicious.

Believing if somebody is town or not, doesn't play a part here. Both you and MMEek are 'defending' a player for their actions. So it doesn't matter here whether you believe he's scum or not if he's lynched, while you are defending him and he flips town, you would still get the brownie points we're talking about, is it not?

Yes, we're both defending players based on how we believe they are aligned. I'm not sure what you mean by your next sentence, but yes, I do get the town cred points if Brejnev flips town. Not sure if it would be town cred, though, because naturally scum would be right. Townies being right does not mean all that much.

But now we do get to the point of you 'defending' Brej, while having a null read. This is in my eyes worse than what MMEek does. MMEek is stuck, while you keep the options open. Either keep defending him or lynch him.

I am defending my null read because the things people were accusing of doing were not actually scum tells; they were just newbie/null tells, and I was uncomfortable with people piling on something that was not actually scummy. I am not purposefully keeping my options open; I can't read Brejnev because all I see as motivation for the things he said was self-preservation, which was a newbie tell in this instance. (If the self-preserving comments came from you, me, or MME, however, it's fair game.)

1. I can't believe that you have a 'worse' opinion than I have here. Yes, the phrasing was interesting and could be seen as suspicious. But even I wouldn't call it lynch-worthy.

Heh. I lynch people who phrase sentences like that. Ergo, "well worth a lynch."

2. Uhum? Only Chi0 followed you. And when you look at Chi0's post, you can see that he used the same reasoning as you did.

Really? I probably need to look closer at that; I remembered at the time that there was at least one other person who shared the same opinion. Yay for failure to fact-check.

3. Not what I meant. Just because only one player thinks a certain way about a certain player, doesn't mean that his opinion has no merit.

Point taken. However, at the time, MME was not backing up the chihuahua0 town read. Either chainsaw defenses are backed up by other players who see the same thing, or I start wondering where the evidence is. From my POV, scum chainsaw more than town. In any case, MME has already backed up the case behind chihuahua0's innocence, so that read actually has merit.

[Equinox]

Bah, EBWOP:

(If the self-preserving comments came from you, me, MME,

or startransmission,

however, it's fair game.)

[Equinox]

Oh, I totally forgot about this. This is the last post, I swear on today's lynch.

Either we should go with what we have or

someone else should step up a little bit more

.

And why shouldn't that "someone else" be you?

[Equinox]

I bet that what I just posted will be used against me.

You bet. Anything can be used against you.

I'm reading this as an appeal to emotion (AtE). I know both town and scum do this, so it's a null tell for me, but it's better if you don't say this sort of thing. It reads like someone who has run out of logical defenses and instead resorts to manipulating other people's emotions; if you're town, it's probably not intentional and just a result of frustration, but if you're scum, it can be really effective. Some people will lynch for AtEs. Be careful there.

What I don't understand is why you say "I don't think that Morthas is really scum," yet you vote Morthas anyway. What's the purpose of that?

I got my grades and needed to celebrate accordingly of course.

Congratulations!

Yes there are others that seem suspicious but from what I have so far, any cases against them would not be solid.

Solidify them. Question people about the things you find suspicious. Place votes and get them to react. Do

something

; this statement sounds like you're taking a more passive approach, and given the state of this game that's not what we can afford right now.

[Equinox]

Sorry. I had limited access on Thursday, so I couldn't get around to answering people's posts.

Welcome, Charlie and NicolBolas. Good to hear from you.

I'm wondering why startransmission is taking that much effort to explain Brejnev, and I'm wondering why anyone is bothering to question startransmission about Brejnev at this point. Replacements only have one piece of information about their predecessor, and that can hardly explain the predecessor's thought processes. I need to look at the line of questioning and see where it's going. It's distracting startransmission from scum hunting, and it's distracting me because I can't read startransmission if s/he is constantly defending.

Good to see chihuahua0 finally posting stances. That's a good start. Question your scum reads and solidify your reads. The idea behind your pressure votes is good, but the fact that you've admitted they are pressure votes makes them no longer pressure votes. You may have to find another way to get reactions from people.

Hmm... I like the posts from Charlie and NicolBolas so far, but I'm going to hold off on actual stance reads until I get more from them.

Deadline is in one week. I'd really like it if we didn't make this a deadline lynch. (I probably shouldn't be the one saying that, seeing as I haven't voted yet.)

I've lost my train of thought in this game somewhat because of the Wednesday afternoon to Friday morning absence, so I'll need to reexamine my notes before placing a vote.

[Equinox]

chihuahua0.

Please stop with the "this will be used against me" statements. I'm sorely tempted to use it against you. You bring it up as if it'll stop us from analyzing you, and that's something I really don't like, as it sounds like you're appealing to us to not read you. Icky at best, scummy at worst.

If you're townie, you still win if you get lynched or killed, so you shouldn't be afraid of what we say about you.

New evidence had completely changed my opinion. He's town no more.

"New evidence" that you do not cite. Please tell us what made you rethink your read of My Milked Eek.

---

That said, I'll take a closer look at the new cases later this evening. I'm addressing this because it's an easy matter to talk about, and I'm getting really annoyed.

[Equinox]

I was just looking through people's votes when I realized something.

13emily14, you posted a list of reads a while ago, but you aren't voting anyone. Why?

[Equinox]

Rereading things both of them give off the "hey I'm pro town and I want to help find scum" vibe but yet they seem to be going in different directions at the same time.

This is an interesting statement. I don't think it's that unlikely that two town players would pursue different reads. Same alignment doesn't necessarily mean same thought process.

Here we go, the gold mine I was looking for:

I'd also like to hear your opinion of Brej who kept offtopic, while having suspicions. You mentioned that it was newb behaviour from Brej to stay offtopic, but how do you feel about him that he did so, while having suspicions?

At a quick glance, this seems to be harmless. After all, Brejnev liked to go off-topic, and it may have been role-related. I suppose that was what ZazieR was trying to get with this question. I only like this question being asked

once

, though, as further discussion of predecessors become really distracting.

Hmm... I guess I really did lose track of what's been going on in this game. startransmission was asked about Brejnev only once post-page 7, it seems, so that appears to be fine. startransmissions response to me, on the other hand, is... sort of odd. It's not the content that bothers me; it's the statement that startransmission is comparing Brejnev and chihuahua0, which is unnecessary given that startransmission is supposed to know Brejnev was town. Um... yeah. I need to keep an eye on this one.

I'm zoning out at this point, so I'm going to hop elsewhere before I come back to the walls from Charlie and NicolBolas, as well as the case against Morthas's slot. Lynch deadline is in one week, and I don't like the current leading wagons (chihuahua0 and MME), so I have this game high up on my priority list... I'll be back. ;D

[Equinox]

Okay, I just went through Charlie's, My Milked Eek's, and NicolBolas's posts. My Milked Eek is playing emotionally, probably out of frustration; therefore, I'm reading null on MME's recent posts. I'm not sure what to make of Charlie's and NicolBolas's posts. On one hand, it seems they have found scum and want to lynch it. On the other hand, I don't like how this wagon on MME is going*.

For full disclosure, I may have difficulty reading Charlie's and NicolBolas's posts, particularly because their defense of me is going to affect my read on them.

* All right, paranoia time. I'm conflicted with My Milked Eek, not just because of how he's playing right now. ICs are really great targets for scum, since ICs can quite easily become town leaders. What I'm concerned about here is the wagon on My Milked Eek and how it's been driven. Based on a HUNCH, I think scum is playing a part on this wagon (regardless of MMEek's actual alignment, since scum may be bussing), and that's what I'm going to have to investigate... after I get caffeine.

Equinox's #185 --> What? You've pointed out that you are tunneling? I have no idea why you choose to say that.

Because I really was tunneling. I said that in the interest of full disclosure.

If you really do not see the day 2 backpedal setup, the double standard and the non-committal opinion on brejnev, then I'm flabbergasted.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Backpedal setup? Brejnev was difficult to read, period. Some of his posts looked like he was just plain rambling, which was a null tell for me because I've seen newbies do that. I did not commit to read because

I didn't have one

. All I know is that he isn't a scum read, and the wagon on that was just odd.

I still can't read startransmission, by the way, because I'm scratching my head at his defense of Brejnev (which was triggered by ZazieR's question). Read that as non-committal if you like, but that's my honest opinion.

[Equinox]

The odd thing about my wagon is that Equinox expressed his dislike towards the wagon and that it feels too rushed. While it may be a real turnabout in his feelings (romantic or not) about me, I can't help but feel that he is the scum that is staying off the wagon. But this may be because of my suspicion towards him, I don't know. I really need to get a quick iso-read in from him.

I wasn't the one who called the wagon rushed, but I really do dislike how it was built. It's not a real turnabout in my feelings; after all, I have you pegged as null, which isn't a full 180. I do agree that you have some confirmation bias, but that's just difference of opinion.

I have a note down on my to-do list to look up how the chihuahua0 and My Milked Eek wagons were built, so I'll get to that as soon as possible, hopefully tonight. The rush is because I really do not want to lynch either chihuahua0 or My Milked Eek, don't like the wagons, and will most likely need to lead a new one. Deadline is in a week, IIRC. See you in a few hours.

[Equinox]

I took a look at the chihuahua0 and My Milked Eek wagons yesterday while doing research to respond to:

5 players on a wagon. Optimally, 2 of these are scum. That means that 3 of these players are not scum. All five are guilty of the same scum-tell, namely "Jumping on the wagon of a player who is

"OBVIOUSLY"

nothing more than a harmless VI. How do you discern which are scum and which are not?

Scum are usually out for a quick, easy, and not-very-suspicious bandwagon. chihuahua0 was easily the best one, given his behavior, until My Milked Eek came in with the big chainsaw. Right now, the My Milked Eek wagon is gaining steam, and I suspect it'll get easier the closer we get to deadline, as one of the town's worst fears is a No Lynch.

The common threads between the two wagons are chihuahua0, Equinox, and NicolBolas (Twinkie). We've covered the chihuahua0 issue to death, so I'll leave it at that. Equinox is obviously town and clear of suspicion. That leaves NicolBolas.

Based on Charlie's summary, NicolBolas posited a chihuahua0-My Milked Eek scum team, and then he unvoted chihuahua0 to focus on My Milked Eek. I haven't had the chance to dig deeper, so I'll just pop the questions and let him deal with it until I get home later today:

1. Do you still believe the scum team is chihuahua0 and My Milked Eek?
2. Why did you unvote chihuahua0?

Charlie, a note of interest: You accused 13emily14/Caycedo of fence-sitting, yet you didn't accuse Equinox of doing the same thing. Why?

Also, I still feel really torn about chi. Mostly I am having those thoughts of "what if" and I am afraid we are going to leave him unchecked and this might come back to hurt us.

Please clarify.

chihuahua0, it's close to deadline. Are you voting My Milked Eek because you think he is scum, or is that just another pressure vote? Who do you think is scum?

STANCES. I've got 4-5 null reads (1 of them will be clarified on Day 2, not specifying now). My focus is going on NicolBolas for the moment, since I need to examine the reasons behind his votes.

Mod: Requesting prod of startransmission.

[Equinox]

I think he's scum. Or maybe because it's close to the deadline.

Which one is it?!

@Charlie: I really changed my vote that much? Wow. I'm very indecivive.

Hold it. Most of these votes were, by your admission, pressure votes. All of a sudden, you're "indecisive." That implies that those votes you made were real. Which is it?

1) No, i do not. It was twinkie who brought up that possiblity
2) I unvoted, because on repeated reads i started to think that Chi was not scum, and i could see that my vote wasnt doing anything where it was. MME came off as incredibly scummy because he was only defending without making an effort to act upon his suspicions.

1. My mistake.
2. What were you hoping to get out of your vote on chihuahua0?

startransmission, I may have missed it if you mentioned it before, but I'll ask it anyway because I'd like a current answer: Top 2, please.

Brain is fried. I'm crossing my fingers for a deadline extension.

EBWOPreview: One last thought before I go to bed and count

scum

sheep...

I did my wagon analysis earlier (see post somewhere), and I got less information than I thought I would. Surprisingly few common threads. What I'll have to do then is look at people's FoSes and suspicions as well, as it's possible that scum are holding out. I have a strong belief that scum are somewhere in this whole chihuahua0 and My Milked Eek mess, and that's what I will be looking for.

[Equinox]

I think he's scum. Or maybe because it's close to the deadline.

Which one is it?!

@Charlie: I really changed my vote that much? Wow. I'm very indecivive.

Hold it. Most of these votes were, by your admission, pressure votes. All of a sudden, you're "indecisive." That implies that those votes you made were real. Which is it?

Hi, chihuahua0. Answer these, please?

[Equinox]

And by the way, what is a ISO?

"Iso" refers to reading players' posts in isolation. You can do this by scrolling down to the bottom of the page, below the Quick Reply box, and selecting a name in the "Display posts by user:" dropdown menu.

I think it's both again. Or maybe because I don't have a stable stance. I'm confused.

It's your own actions. If you're confused by your own actions... then we're just lost.

Since you believe My Milked Eek to be scum, please post a case against My Milked Eek. Why do you think he is scum?

[Equinox]

But the only problem is: is there a quote all button?

Why would you need to quote everything?

No, there is no quote all button that I'm aware of.

Answer this, please, chihuahua0, and stop dodging questions.

Since you believe My Milked Eek to be scum, please post a case against My Milked Eek. Why do you think he is scum?

[Equinox]

I'll have a lot more to say soon, but for now:

Robocopter87, are chihuahua0 and startransmission the only questionable reads you have? No comments on the other players? No comments on any interactions? No comments about the current wagons?

[Equinox]

Pasting quotes will just clog up this post, so I'll throw this response instead. tl;dr summary at the bottom.

Mind if I ask for the full case against chihuahua0?

startransmission's posts are considerably better than Brejnev's, but the way you say this makes me think you're trying to leave some wiggling room in case the town hops onto a startransmission wagon. I don't like this, particularly because of the current game state.

You were suspicious of Morthas, yet you have no comment about Charlie's posts?

If you have no problems with Ant_to_the_max, you should be leaning town. If you're reading null, there's something that's keeping you from clearing Ant_to_the_max. Null means you have some questions about his play. Ask.

Did Caycedo's content, responses, and jazz somehow nullify your "suspicious" read of 13emily14? You have not specified your opinions about said content or questions.

Equinox is acting like town meta. Equinox's meta is null. Equinox is acting townie. Therefore, Equinox is... null... Yeeeeeeah. I think I get it.

---

TL;DR

I promised to look through Charlie's and NicolBolas's posts. I meant to do that to find my Day 1 lynch target. No need to do that now! ZazieR made good posts, but Robocopter87 has so much wiggling room that he can spin 'round and 'round in an office chair, arms and legs stretched out, and not hit a wall. Even if said chair was moving.

Lynch it.

Unvote, Vote: Robocopter87

[Equinox]

Just want to know how close to death I am.

Oi.

Was ZazieR so dreadfully scummy to you that you think you are that close to being lynched?

This nervousness from you is out-of-character. IIRC you're usually more reckless. You're more reserved in this game.

@Equinox- Yes, he may have left himself a lot of wriggle room. He just replaced in, so maybe he needs more time to form an opinion. What makes him so lynchable?

I think the opposite. Replacements, reading the thread in one go, see connections better than those who have been in the game since the beginning; it's harder for us to read them, but they have an easier time reading us. Robocopter87 getting null reads when most others have had some sort of spectrum was disturbing.

Not to mention his nervousness.

[Equinox]

Would it be a good/advantageous thing to look up other players and see how they acted in past games? Or would this be like taking things out of context?

It could be potentially useful. If someone is playing drastically differently from their usual town play, then something is up. On the other hand, if their play is consistent with their past town play, it's not necessarily a town tell. (That may be why Robocopter87 didn't post an actual stance regarding Equinox.)

If you choose to go this route, you can only talk about completed games. You're allowed to look at ongoing games, but that would be for your own reference.

I see you've listed several possibilities, but you haven't stated a preference for one. Which of your outcomes do you think is the case here?

EBWOPreview: Ninja'd by Charlie.

[Equinox]

I think that Chi is the correct lynch, and that the fallout from that will give the game the information necessary to move forward.

I would vote for chi, because I think it's in the town's best interest.

Question: Would you be lynching chihuahua0 as a scum lynch or as a policy lynch?

I'm directing this at Caycedo and startransmission, but the question is open to everyone.

[Equinox]

We have an entire week to move the wagon. Time is not an issue unless we have more V/LAs than available players to move votes.

Also, Robocopter87, that answer was

bad

. If you can meta me, I can damn well meta you. Vote stays.

Lynch it, please. I don't think he's flustered.

[Equinox]

I can understand asking for a vote count, but you asked and tagged along a comment that you wanted to see how "close to death" you were... after I voted you. That smelled like nervousness to me. Your response to my meta-read of you was also worrisome; it implies you're playing against meta, and the tone of your post seemed to me like you were against me comparing your past play to your present play. The last person who did that in one of my games flipped scum. (Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but I'm of the opinion that townies shouldn't object to having their past play examined anyway.)

Since you have your top two as chihuahua0 and startransmission, do you believe them to be a scum team?

[Equinox]

Oh and how do you format a link to the number thing? Like I want to make this "#395" link to Caycedo's post there.

What do you guys mean when you are referring to "meta" here? Just wondering how it is used in relation to Mafia.

The number is the link; just copy the shortcut and paste.

In the context I used it, I looked at Robocopter87's past play and compared it to how he's playing in this game. You can read more in the wiki: Metagaming (That should be the correct link...)

[Equinox]

What do you bring to the town? What are your assets? What is the incentive to keep you around?

At first, I thought this was just a roundabout way to ask chihuahua0 to defend himself, since past attempts to get chihuahua0 to do so failed. Now that you mention it, the wording is odd.

It's a policy lynch. I would not be surprised, however, if he flipped scum.

If you think chihuahua0 is scum, it's not a policy lynch. I believe you said before that you believed him to be scum, but now you seem to be stepping back and... not committing. Why is this?

EBWOPreview:

I wanted a votecount to know when I'm near death. If people started voting you wouldn't you want to know how close you were to death?

Yes, I would. I see some problems, though:

1. Your analysis means that you read the thread. You should have had a rough idea of how ZazieR appeared to the town and therefore been able to infer how close ZazieR was to being lynched.
2. ZazieR was, by consensus, townish. My vote on you was your slot's first.
3. There were no shifts toward your slot since the last vote count. This much should have been apparent even from a quick skim.

Am I comparing your play to your meta? Meta is not a reason to vote someone.

Playing consistent with your meta is a null tell. Playing differently, on the other hand, is suspicious at best.

[Equinox]

C) Equinox wanted me to post on everyone. Instead of calling them town I said null. If you think my list was bad complain to Equinox.

Interesting that you say, "Instead of calling them town..." Why? Were they actually town reads that you decided to call null?

Yes, I did ask Robocopter87 to post reads, but I didn't complain when he skipped My Milked Eek. I skip posting reads sometimes for my own reasons. What I was not expecting was a giant list of nulls. Based on most of the others' posts, they have a spectrum ranging from townish reads to scummish reads; Robocopter87, on the other hand, just... didn't. That was especially strange, coming from a replacement.

And Equinox did vote me because of Meta.

It didn't occur to you that I may have been reaction fishing? In any case, your reaction failed the test.

Uh dude. I was being hypothetical with placing them in a scum team. Read my above post.

You have chihuahua0 and startransmission pegged as scum reads. In your opinion, are they or are they not on a scum team?

[Equinox]

Correction:

Based on most of the others' posts, they have a spectrum ranging from townish reads to scummish reads; Robocopter87, on the other hand, just... didn't. That was especially strange, coming from a replacement.

I forgot that Robocopter87 posted two town reads as well as two scum reads. That still leaves five null reads with wiggling room (see post where I talked about this).

[Equinox]

Uh dude. I was being hypothetical with placing them in a scum team. Read my above post.

You have chihuahua0 and startransmission pegged as scum reads. In your opinion, are they or are they not on a scum team?

Answer that, please?

Yeah. I'm still scratching my head at your worry about getting lynched. I thought ZazieR was pretty solid town... I guess if the replacement had reason to worry, I do too.

[Equinox]

Something is bothering me...

A) Zaz may have had some issues, but his posting thru the game felt like he was trying to not attract too much notice. I’m just commenting on this. (minor reason#1)

What about ZazieR's posts makes you say he was trying to stay under the radar?

[Equinox]

Can you cite posts where you feel ZazieR was doing this?

[Equinox]

The more i look at things, the less confident i become. I'll close this window, and try to clear my mind and look at things fresh tomorrow morning.

What are you feeling less confident about?

[Equinox]

chihuahua0, as you're looking back, can you please answer the questions we have for you? They're peppered around the pages since your last post.

[Equinox]

Looks like Robocopter is being wagoned. I need to look back to find evidence on him, but I'm not sure about him being scum. Zaz (first time I reffered to him as that) didn't seem very scummy, but maybe because the other suspects (like me) overshadow him.

Interesting you mention this. I have more to say on this matter, but I'd rather wait for NicolBolas to respond to my latest question.

[Equinox]

startransmission last posted on Thursday. He last visited on Friday morning, but he has not posted anywhere else on the site since his last post in this game.

chihuahua0: There were other questions, too.

My Milked Eek's 380
Caycedo's 386

I haven't linked the stuff that weren't really questions but cases against you. I'll go into that with this question:

What do you think of the more recent cases people (Ant_to_the_max, Caycedo, Robocopter87, and startransmission) put against you? They're in pages 16-17.

[Equinox]

Hmm... I wasn't expecting that.

I'll explain what was bothering me, then; the way you were attacking Robocopter87 seemed to parallel mine. Even though you were targeting other players in your posts as well, the way you were directing your attacks didn't feel so right. I guess it may be the bias I'm holding because I still haven't cleared my suspicion of your slot, which stemmed from the "common thread" between the chihuahua0 and My Milked Eek wagons.

Hoping to hear your thoughts tomorrow.

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

dunno how to link to post numbers.

The post number itself is the link to the post. Right-click that, copy the shortcut, and you have the link.

[Equinox]

Hmm...

Charlie's latest post has me wondering where he stands on things besides My Milked Eek. I have nothing to ask, though; it's more like I need to look at his posts. Later, though. I think there's something here with NicolBolas.

Unvote, Vote: NicolBolas

The action you just described is tunneling. The question I want to ask you is: If you felt ZazieR was skating under your radar, why would you have him marked down as "most townie" on your scale? What do you think of Robocopter87's activity since his entrance?

Looking at your posts in isolation, I noticed that you also said role-fishing was scummy. Therefore, what do you think of Ant_to_the_max's accusation that Caycedo is fishing for chihuahua0's role? Relevant post in question by Caycedo is 395.

Hoping to hear from you regarding suspects as well.

[Equinox]

Mod: Requesting prod of startransmission.

I think it's been 48 hours.

[Equinox]

Bah. I'll come 'round again on Tuesday, then, if he doesn't post.

Oh, wait. He's online. o/

[Equinox]

Your response about your attacks on Robocopter87 seems honest. That's fine by me.

Unvote

I don't see how Caycedo's question tied into his usual posting style, since he was a bit more serious here:

What do you bring to the town? What are your assets? What is the incentive to keep you around?

This is probably just a minor thing, though.

Regarding your read of Caycedo: You feel he has "acquitted himself well," but you don't like the fact that he's recommending a policy lynch. Do you think his recommendation is scummy, towny, or just null?

Regarding your attacks on Robocopter87:

I then proceeded to pull out reasons to vote him out of nowhere.

Clarify "out of nowhere," please. Were you working off your knowledge of the game, or were you really making them up as you went? Or was it somewhere in between?

---

Blargh. Had more to say, gonna have to get back to this post later. Posting it now because I don't want to keep it in Drafts.

[Equinox]

Whatever it was I had to say in my last post, I have unfortunately forgotten. I may get back to whatever it was later.

chihuahua0, why are you not defending yourself? Are all the cases against you correct or something?

[Equinox]

I do not normally support policy lynches. In this case, I felt that a policy lynch of chi was necessary because I felt he was impeding not only my own, but also our collective scum-hunting efforts.

I need to see you commit here, Caycedo. Is chihuahua0 town or scum?

[Equinox]

I'm not going to vote chi, if that's what you think. The only situation I might vote chi is if it's Friday, one hour before deadline and no one else is on to help him get lynched.

Same with me. I do not support this wagon, even if I've been doing a piss poor job of finding another suspect to lynch. I do, however, prefer a lynch of either NicolBolas or Robocopter87. One of them is scum.

I see posts that need responding; I'll get around to those as soon as I've settled down and stuff. Just got home to see an L-1.

[Equinox]

I have exactly no idea what question, if any, you just answered.

I asked chihuahua0 to respond to your 386. It looks like he didn't answer it at all. /facepalm

My top three suspects are Robocoptor, Nicol, and Chi.

Since you suspect chihuahua0, this is not a policy lynch.

Thanks for clarifying.

Now that I've seen the context of chihuahua0's response, I'm getting really close to considering a policy lynch of chihuahua0, scum driving be damned. This is not yet an intent to hammer -- I'll make that decision once I see more from chihuahua0 -- but I'd like to see the following from chihuahua0:

1. A defense for AT LEAST the cases made against chihuahua0 on page 16
2. A full case against My Milked Eek (or another player, if his suspicions have changed), outlining what specific actions were scummy
3. An explanation for his quick adoption of the "VI tag"

[Equinox]

No.

If you are town, the cases against you are

WRONG

. You know this, and that should be the base from which you build your defense. Giving up and letting yourself get lynched hurts the town.

If you are bad at analysis, do it anyway. Newbie games are for you to learn, and you have the IC and SEs to point you in the right direction if you're doing something wrong. Don't be afraid of trying something new.

What you shouldn't be doing is just accepting "VI" as a label and then running with it. You have a desire to stay on this site and build a meta, correct?

Yes, I noticed startransmission is lurking. I'm waiting because he might be building a wall post, and those take a while to make. If he doesn't post something soon, though, I'd be willing to lead a Lynch All Lurkers policy lynch.

[Equinox]

I think at this point chi, you should seriously consider a self-hammer. Your self depreciation in points 1-4 warrant it. I am tired of you whipping yourself over your inability to play this game.

I hope you did not sincerely ask him to self-hammer. Town shouldn't be self-hammering unless it's 15 minutes until deadline and not doing so would mean No Lynch. We are not in that situation.

Self-hammering also denies town information. Bad suggestion is bad, even if it was done in emotional outrage.

If the above is not reason enough for a hammer, I can only direct you to the myriad posts of similar grating qualities.

I'm not hammering because we have time before the deadline, and chihuahua0 only posts once a day. Wringing information out of him is time-consuming, but I think it'd be worth it. (Not to mention I get to see who's telling people to self-hammer!)

[Equinox]

Caycedo:

1. You were

insulted

by my comment? If you didn't need that lesson, chihuahua0 did, since your comment was directed at chihuahua0. It may be crystal clear to you what you meant, but it sure as hell wasn't for me, or I wouldn't have jumped on you. There was potential for harm to my win condition with your comment, and I'm not going to stand for that.

2. You and chihuahua0 are not the only players in this game.

3. Your reaction does not help matters any, scum.

Vote: Caycedo

Robocopter87, what's your excuse for jumping on the Caycedo wagon?

[Equinox]

Well, out with it.

[Equinox]

Does your reason happen to be: "Caycedo's going to get heat for that, so I'm going to be first on the wagon and bus him!"

You know what I meant. Stop with the thread noise and post a case, scum.

[Equinox]

-_-

Is there a point to all this sarcasm, Caycedo?

[Equinox]

-_-

Is there a point to all this sarcasm, Caycedo?

Seriously.

At the risk of insulting your delicate sensibilities once again, sarcasm isn't going to help anyone. At all. Go cool off or something.

[Equinox]

All right. I think I've cooled off. D:

The sarcasm is making you a difficult read at the moment, but I think you were genuinely angry. Scum would be a bit more rational in this situation.

Unvote

Impatience makes me want to get a lynch moving already. We still have not heard anything substantial from My Milked Eek and startransmission, Robocopter87's having a bit too much fun, Charlie's pretty much tunneling, and chihuahua0 is as big of an enigma as ever.

Therefore, scumminess be damned, I'm going for...

Vote: chihuahua0

Let's get this to night phase.

EBWOPreview: Hi Robocopter87. Respond away then hop onto the happy wagon to doom.

[Equinox]

No, that wasn't a hammer.

I voted Robocopter87 as a serious vote. When I noticed NicolBolas's attacks paralleled mine, I jumped on him because I thought it was odd that he'd join the tag team. His explanation for that felt honest, so I hopped off. Later I hopped to Caycedo for the self-hammer comment. I hopped off for the reason I posted a few minutes ago. Now I'm on chihuahua0 purely because I'm getting really impatient. (Though your giant post has changed that a bit, since the number of people I can't read has dropped down to 4.)

I am open to lynching Robocopter87 over chihuahua0 if we can get that wagon moving before deadline. Caycedo will need to hop on before he leaves, though.

[Equinox]

Correction: I initially pressured Robocopter87 and later confirmed it as a serious vote.

[Equinox]

Its not a win-win its a loss of info and a loss of a townie.

Wait, so you

know

chihuahua0 is town?

Unvote, Vote: Robocopter87

[Equinox]

Oh, that's what you meant. Sorry about that.

[Equinox]

You've got nothing to worry about, right? It's just one harmless vote. One testimony that I just may be willing to lynch you. :/

[Equinox]

I have a question.

No matter what it would rid us of a player that, if town, would be a distraction and a scapegoat for scum all game long. And that would be dangerous, especially in endgame. Also, we would have a NK to analyze.

You have been posting about every two days. If you're town, you can potentially distract our scum hunting efforts from real scum to your lurking. That would be bad, especially later in the game. Why shouldn't we lynch you?

[Equinox]

Second question:

What makes you think you will survive the NK to be able to do the analysis? Why not post an analysis now? (And if you did a couple of weeks ago, a number of things have already happened; I'm interested in seeing your input about those.)

[Equinox]

Why not now?

We've had a whopping 22 pages of discussion. There is room to read people, yet you refuse to until you see flips. I don't think that's quite right, even if you are sure that you'll survive until tomorrow.

[Equinox]

Agreed that we have no time. However, I still think you're denying us some valuable input. I insist. :/

[Equinox]

@ Equinox: Why are your votes hopping all over the place recently?

Already explained this.

I will be online when the deadline hits, so that's when I'll be changing my vote if need be. I like where my vote is at the moment.

[Equinox]

Here's a countdown. It's EDT, though, so you'll need to subtract one hour from that.

[Equinox]

EBWOP: I just realized that's AM.

Corrected.

[Equinox]

We have over a day to hammer. Wait until startransmission posts his analysis before dropping it. (startransmission, if you sign on and don't post something -- even an "I'll post later" -- I'm going to assume it's not coming and drop the hammer.)

[Equinox]

NOT GAME RELATED.

Robocopter87, your post just reminded me of how you were NKed on your birthday.

Just sayin'.

[Equinox]

For everyone else: We're talking about Newbie 945. Game is over.

I suppose we really need to wait for startransmission now. I stand by my willingness to hammer, and I will be online at deadline.

[Equinox]

All right. Certain things in this game and elsewhere convince me we need to do this.

Vote: chihuahua0

[Equinox]

Is this wait game-related?

[Equinox]

Patience, my young padawan. I need to look at something first.

This and his later response to you has me confused, hence the question.

If it's not game-related, there's no reason for the hold-up.

If it's game-related, there may be a reason for a hold-up, but there's no need to be secretive.

We aren't going to get five people logged in at this hour who would be willing to jump to another wagon. That shouldn't be the reason.

The other, more valid, reason would be getting a longer twilight. IIRC, in about two hours, Netopalis will log in. If Charlie hammered now, we're not going to get the nifty pre-NK discussion that can sometimes be very helpful

to scum

.

If it's the second reason, there's no reason to be secretive.

[Equinox]

Heyo, startransmission! Happy birthday!

Thread closing in 3... 2... 1...

[Equinox]

o_O

Charlie: Was the delay in hammering yesterday game-related?

In the meantime, I am really confused, so I need to look back at stuff. I think I have too many town reads. _-_

EBWOP: HI ROBOCOPTER87. So... what was the purpose of that post? It says nothing.

[Equinox]

Charlie.

I am confused about this slot. I couldn't read Morthas, and I can't get a grip on my read of Charlie, either. Sometimes he seems pro-town, but then he... isn't.

[Equinox]

EBWOP: Perhaps I should return the favor and ask you the same question.

[Equinox]

chihuahua0 was lynched on deadline. I chose not to lynch startransmission. My reason also echoes startransmission's: Day 1 was the only time we could lynch chihuahua0 and not throw the game. I suppose now that we could have just let him be replaced, since he hasn't logged on since Tuesday, but it's too late for that now.

The cryptic "reason in this game and elsewhere" was really just that. I'd read a few games with self-proclaimed (or otherwise) VIs. They were never NKed, and they were a liability in LyLo. That's not something I thought the town should have to deal with.

I realize scum can hide behind this very reasoning. Question away.

EBWOP:

I did not lead town to this lynch. I voted, Robocopter87 followed, and then I asked Charlie to hammer. The other two votes are not my doing.

[Equinox]

That's a bloody quick bandwagon there. Hold up!

Cases, people. I wasn't convinced on Day 1.

Do you think I'm mafia or town?

To be honest, I don't know. I can't read you.

Tarhalindur Standard Tells
FoS: Robocopter87

Question. Wouldn't Robocopter87 be aware of these tells? Would this foreknowledge affect his behavior if he is scum?

[Equinox]

A) Nothing. I am just willing to wait, again, for startransmission to deliver his reads.
B) Nothing. The point, for me, was to lynch an anti-town player.

What I've gained from Day 1, I did not gain from chihuahua0's lynch.

I am not convinced because I've gotten a town read on Caycedo. His reactions weren't coming from a scum mindset. It doesn't help that Charlie and Robocopter87 are on the wagon, either.

[Equinox]

Ant_to_the_max, you've been putting off conclusions and impressions about this game for a while...

[Equinox]

By the way...

I think that the mafia did this. Are stupid an nokilled. Maybe there is a Doctor at work. Doctor is smart, and protected the right person.

Now, I am not rolefishing but both are the possibilities, there is no other option than these two.

Vote: Robocopter87

[Equinox]

Charlie:

I read those posts, too. Apparently, I'm reading them differently. Explain, please.

Regarding Robocopter87, I'm not asking you to dig up his meta. I'm just wondering why you bothered to appeal to the wiki.

[Equinox]

Oh, side note: you mentioned something about prelynch talk helping scum out? What did you mean by that?

Scum might use whatever town leaves behind in twilight to decide who to kill and who to block. While they'll analyze the rest of the game anyway, twilight talk is a convenient place for them to look; usually it's the town's "final" words for Day 1, and that's most likely where they will continue on Day 2, whereas that may not be the case for something someone says in the middle of Day 1.

On the flip side, it is also to the town's benefit to have

some

discussion in twilight, depending on the subject matter. Discussing setup analysis, for instance, would be pro-scum, but leaving a trail of suspects behind prior to your death can be very pro-town.

Only reason why he voted was to make the deadline.

Not really... but I've already discussed this a few posts above.

[Equinox]

My Milked Eek has been posting at the same rate site-wide, as far as I can see. It's a null tell.

[Equinox]

Caycedo: The sarcasm is not helping you persuade anyone. If you're getting angry with this game, step away and cool off. You'll defend yourself better when you're less emotional. In addition, the people pushing for your lynch may not necessarily mean it.

What I'm seeing from Caycedo is someone angry that nobody else is seeing his point of view. Scum would be a lot more rational and emotionally detached from the game. After all, they know their accusers are right. Caycedo, on the other hand, has been posting like an emotional town player who feels he's right but can't convince the people voting him.

Also, I'm wavering on Robocopter87. I don't want to just scrap the townish read I had on ZazieR, but Robocopter87's play makes me uncomfortable at times. What I'm willing to do is to keep him around longer to get a solid grip on him. (Somehow the meta from 945 and 962 aren't helping...)

However, I cannot read Charlie

at all

. I've already stated my willingness to day-vig him if I had the ability. Let's put that into real practice.

Unvote, Vote: Charlie

[Equinox]

I've had difficulty reading Morthas before, mainly because of the style of his attacks against Twinkie earlier in the game. After Charlie replaced in, he's been anything but transparent. That worries me, and it makes it harder to read a slot I already have trouble with.

[Equinox]

Just a bunch of one-liners.

Both Caycedo and Robocopter87 are acting in the same way. Their posting style may actually reflects their normal behavior...

Caycedo doesn't have any meta to speak of, so I don't know where you got the idea that this is his "normal behavior."

Equinox, who else do you think is mafia besides me?
I ask because of late, I think you're town.

I'm not ready to start pairing people up yet. And why are you telling me you think I'm town?

Alright, everyone is voting different people. don't like it, "Can't we all just get along?".

No.

Also, if you don't like the current situation,

lead

. Convince us why you think Caycedo is scum and needs to be lynched today. Otherwise, this post is just noise and doesn't serve any constructive purpose.

So doesn't that mean most of your argument on him is null?

What? It turned into a null because them 2 are alike.

That doesn't answer Ant_to_the_max's question. He was asking about your earlier vote/case against Robocopter87, when you posted the wiki link.

[Equinox]

@NicolBolas: I'd default to Equinox, but his vote is on me. MME is the next best lynch. Startransmission is second best.

If your case against Equinox does not boil down to OMGUS, you should have no problem presenting it.

[Equinox]

Nothing to say about my case? No issues with it? wow...

I haven't looked at it yet.

Equinox, you misunderstood me. By defaulting to you, I meant to your judgment of who the mafia is, not me defaulting to vote for you.

Oh, man... I say I can't read you, and you pull this on me. I honestly have no idea which way to take your statement. If this is what I think it is, then we're about to go into a downward spiral

really

fast. If it isn't, then I know you're the lynch of the day. Damn this WIFOM. I'm not going to unvote yet.

Besides, what makes you think my judgment is good enough to follow? I'm not an oracle; I'm just Equinox, and I've been known to make horrendously poor judgment calls. Don't follow me.

Also, Robocopter87 isn't playing an emotional style. He's just hyper. I don't see how he and Caycedo are playing the same way.

===

That said... I need to isolation read Caycedo again and cross-reference your cases. Be back later.

[Equinox]

This isn't a post about Caycedo. I'm working on that one.

I just remembered something I meant to ask Ant_to_the_max.

Now that it's Day 2, do you have a read of My Milked Eek? Who do you think is scum? You've been a bit vague about the latter point...

[Equinox]

I've only just realized what Charlie meant with the whole Caycedo and Robocopter87 thing. (So much for not reading.) Yeah, that was an emotional response from Robocopter87... I wonder what that means.

I've wanted to do this for a while now, but I didn't know if I should with the whole busy IRL thing. I might as well get on with it now because time doesn't stop. VOTE-HOPPING, GO!

Unvote, Vote: startransmission

I

may

switch to Caycedo, but other than that, I'm not hopping off this one until I get some answers. To, like, everything.

[Equinox]

What is it that piques your interest?

[Equinox]

...

Wow. I am really terrible at reading comprehension.

>_<

Thanks, Ant_to_the_max!

What idea is this? Does it depend on some future development?

[Equinox]

I wouldn't say I'm that ready; I'm just leaving the possibility that I might, pending my investigation of Caycedo. I want to hear from startransmission first and foremost, though, as that's a slot that needs more activity.

Caycedo hasn't logged on since Sunday. Probably not lurking unless he's turned off public status.

I'd actually be worried if the game wasn't interesting you. Good to know it is.

[Equinox]

The pressure continues to mount. The mob demands that I deliver my verdict. They look mighty dangerous, holding torches, pitchforks, and ropes like that...

This is where I do the smartest thing I can do in this kind of situation:

Procrastinate.

In other news, startransmission said he'd get better reads on Day 2 with a flip. It is now Day 2. I forced him to post reads earlier, but I want to know if anything has changed since the chihuahua0 flip (which wasn't supposed to be a huge surprise, guys).

[Equinox]

...so why, exactly, are you all sitting around and waiting? Needs moar questions, pokes, and accusations.

[Equinox]

@Nicol, what do you think of the game? The night kill, and equinox.
@Equinox, What do you think of Nicol?

Interesting. You're a bit obsessed with the night kill. I wonder why...

I'm leaning town on NicolBolas.

EBWOPreview: Hello, impatient one.

[Equinox]

@equinox, what do you think of Robo?

Right now, I don't like his fixation on the night kill. It reads like fishing for town impressions of what happened.

As for Robocopter87 in general, I'm still wavering. Sometimes he's townish, sometimes... he does stuff that I don't like. Very weird. >_<

[Equinox]

I am so confused. I'd totally day-vig Robocopter87 now.

@equinox- I dont think that the (lack of) night kill fixation means anything, so i will ignore it.

What I'm curious about is why he's bringing it up at all. Town doesn't need to know. If someone died, let's find out which scumbag did it. If nobody died... oh, cool, let's string up some scum anyway.

I can see scum getting worried about it, though. If they did a No Kill, they'd want to know what town thought. If they got their kill blocked, they'd also want to know what town thought.

Less town motivation than scum motivation == rather scummy.

EBWOPreviews:

What is going on?

[Equinox]

Robocopter87,

that

is interesting. Explain.

Also, we really need to lynch startransmission. I'm getting tired of waiting.

(I know you guys must be, too, for I still haven't brought the Caycedo post.)

[Equinox]

Uh...

Yeah, you'd better explain what's going on here with your votes, Robocopter87. I'm not at all convinced your motivations are good.

[Equinox]

You "want" startransmission dead, yet you went through the trouble of devising a plan to get Charlie to quick lynch. When that failed, you dropped it like it was on fire. When I insisted, you voted and then declare startransmission in your hypothetical. When I questioned you again, you "also want Star dead."

I don't see it, Robocopter87... the possible good motive. Are you usually this opportunistic, scum?

[Equinox]

Or you're just bussing now because the alternative was me spearheading your lynch.

[Equinox]

What kind of a defense was that?

[Equinox]

Thanks, Netopalis.

Unless you're some super cop, Robocopter87, you can't possibly confirm 5 townies. What's the point of talking about this super plan of yours if the object is to lure people into a trap? The fact that you just said it without my prompting you (unlike Ant_to_the_max) has me scratching my head.

With the lack of transparency in this game, I might as well scratch until I bleed and reach a permanent high or something.

Okay, enough spamming from me. I gotta get reading.

[Equinox]

Sigh. Fine. I don't want to know. Just carry on with whatever it is you're doing. I probably won't comply, though.

[Equinox]

Can you explain the above? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Overall frustration that this game wasn't moving anywhere. I was hoping to get startransmission talking at L-1, but I think we may be better off waiting for him to be replaced. I'm not unvoting until I see something substantial, however.

I still have NO idea what Robocopter87's going on about.

[Equinox]

I owe you guys a post about the cases on Caycedo and stuff. I'm a horrible procrastinator.

[Equinox]

We're making pages and pages of fluff posts. We might end up scaring half the players away...

In the meantime, I'd like to hear from Ant_to_the_max regarding his secret plans. And hear from everyone else. And lynch someone.

I'm going insane, too. I'm going to stop spamming. (I'll also break this promise in about 20 minutes.)

[Equinox]

I went to sleep after reading, so I'll have that thing later today.

It seems startransmission doesn't plan on replacing out. Awesome. I'm done giving people free passes, so my vote is going to stick until we get something pro-town out of him. Why were you even "mildly surprised" at chihuahua0's flip, startransmission? That was a no-brainer by the time chihuahua0 claimed. Why are you holding off on your vote of Robocopter87?

Also, we've already had cases put against Caycedo; I'm not making a third (or fourth). I'm just looking at the cases to see if they have merit.

Caycedo, you did say you were traveling, but I think it got lost in the sea of spam. In the future, bold it like it's a message to the moderator.

Ant_to_the_max, are you so eager to send startransmission to L-1? Not that I mind, but that's an interesting statement you made to Caycedo. That is also one rather interesting case against Robocopter87. What makes you think he was leading? What are your thoughts on the startransmission wagon?

Charlie... I don't know. I think I need to take a look at that, but I doubt your wagon is going to get moving, either.

[Equinox]

Okay.

I think I see where Robocopter87 was going with the whole "wanting the day to end" thing being scummy. Caycedo needed to go V/LA starting July 18. Deadline for Day 1 was July 16. There's no reason to want the day to end early just to hammer; Caycedo wasn't leaving until two days later. Cayscumdo, however, would be potentially missing out on a day of scum QT discussion if we dragged until deadline.

Scum slip.

Unvote, Vote: Caycedo

[Equinox]

The dates do not match, Caycedo. If my assumption is incorrect, give me an alternative explanation. You cannot dismiss an accusation without presenting evidence.

[Equinox]

If my prediction is correct, Caycedo will be at L-1 soon enough, followed by a bus hammer.

[Equinox]

Uh... the rules.

[Equinox]

Well, someone is going to come in and put Caycedo at L-1. We all wait for Caycedo to claim. We tear the claim apart. Caycedo's scum buddy hammers.

Patience, Robocopter87. In the meantime, I guess we should start hunting down the scum buddy... (Or, rather, I was in the middle of doing that when I got caught up reading someone else's game. )

[Equinox]

Information over analysis, Ant_to_the_max? Are you not going to comment on my case and instead ask the IC to do it for you? Why aren't you bussing, scum?

[Equinox]

What makes you think we are lynching a townie today, Ant_to_the_max? Do you have doubts about my case, even when you call it "valid"? You're allowed to have your own opinion; you don't have to defer to the other experienced players.

And why My Milked Eek, specifically? Charlie, Robocopter87, and startransmission are also experienced, and even though they are SEs they qualify to be IC.

[Equinox]

The Day 1 in this game was abnormally long. Usually it's in the neighborhood of 10-15 pages; we were just talkative. I can understand not wanting to rush given that this is only your second game, but there is no certain amount of time or posts that a game day has to last except for the deadline. If we find scum before the deadline hits, so be it. There are no issues with ending the day early if there's nothing else to discuss.

More personally speaking, I'm pushing for more votes on Caycedo because I feel the evidence condemns him and that we shouldn't dilly-dally. If you disagree with this assessment, I absolutely need to hear your opinion. You have offered nothing in the way of your thoughts or stances regarding my or NicolBolas's case. I'm beginning to think you're scum trying to buy enough time to get me to jump onto someone else. If that is the case, Ant_to_the_max, I can assure you I will not be repeating what I did at the end of Day 1.

[Equinox]

Well, I'd love to get a claim out of him right now, but usually those come once:

A) Someone puts him at L-1
B) Someone not on the wagon expresses an intent to hammer and asks for a claim

/slaps Robocopter87

This is a newbie game. There are things they should know, even if they are scum.

[Equinox]

My first game went 50 something pages.

That wasn't your fault, was it?

Well, I wouldn't mind

too

much if someone quick lynched him before he could claim. The only thing he could claim, after all, is Mafia Goon.

[Equinox]

Now why would he claim that?

Actually, we score if he's the roleblocker. Might explain the absolute reluctance to vote him now.

[Equinox]

I just remembered something.

So I guess really...the question would be, does what equinox found fall under the "lynch all liars" and for sure pins Cay down as scum?

Caycedo never actually lied. (...at least, until he replied "Incorrect" to my accusation.) I'm lynching him because the dates don't match.

[Equinox]

Waiting for discussion is the pro-town thing to do, under normal circumstances. Because of this, scum frequently try to do this to gain town credibility. That is why I accused you, as I've seen scum try that before. I have also seen town do the same thing, but the only way to check which is to apply pressure. I'm not sure how to take your response at the moment, so I'm leaving it aside for right now.

The funny thing about the chihuahua0 wagon was it formed, disintegrated, and then revived by deadline. If you're looking for scum, you may have to look at the earlier chihuahua0 wagon, which Caycedo was a part of for "policy lynching," rather than the later wagon that I pushed. On the other hand, two scum may have been on opposite sides of the chihuahua0 issue, something known as "Good Cop, Bad Cop." If Caycedo was on the wagon, lightly pushing, then his buddy

may

have been the one opposing. We don't know, which is why I hesitate to use the chihuahua0 wagon as primary evidence for someone being scum.

[Equinox]

Any thoughts about the cases against Caycedo, though?

[Equinox]

Aw, crap. That wasn't the claim I expected. Well, that gives him credibility.

Unvote, Vote: startransmission

[Equinox]

It is also why I wanted the night to happen before I went V/LA, so that I could have time to get my choice in.

My thinking was you would have submitted your night actions early or, at the latest, on July 17. I didn't expect town PRs to take the full 48 hours to make a decision.

[Equinox]

Third post in a row.

I believe Caycedo's claim. His Day 1 and Day 2 behavior are consistent.

I also believe we're in the 1 RB + 1 Goon setup. I am not going to elaborate.

I'm going V/LA tomorrow, so I hope we don't have anything major happening in the meantime. When I get back, I'm looking at the cases on My Milked Eek.

[Equinox]

I should probably mention that Caycedo's claim flips my read of Robocopter87 right back to neutral. Stop playing barnacle.

My Milked Eek claims Caycedo was obvious cop. Well, that's interesting... I have yet to examine this further. Anyway, you claim the cases we had were baseless. I accuse your read of me of being the same thing. You waver on reading my iso (apparently multiple times), but don't elaborate on any possible motivations. I cannot defend myself against an attack like that.

I have 2 close-to-confirmed town reads, 2 people that need further investigation, and 1 I want lynched. That looks good to me. I don't post a list of reads, so don't ask. >_>

I'm on limited access today. I may post on my mobile whenever possible, but no guarantees.

[Equinox]

Alright, we need to hurry up and lynch startran. Speed is necessary.

Why?

[Equinox]

Why are you so secretive?

[Equinox]

We have a little over a week left before the deadline hits again.

My Milked Eek: Your problem reading me might not be your end at all. It might be mine. I've been accused of being a difficult read before. >_>

Also, something about your comments on Caycedo's posts not being scum tells feels connected to your white-knighting of chihuahua0. My gut doesn't like it. I may have to look into that sooner rather than later, since we're running out of time... again. I don't consider this a case, by the way. It's just something I need to think about.

I'm going to look into the threads surrounding Caycedo tomorrow. Timing is everything.

Robocopter87: You want to lynch startransmission...

fast

. Either you have a damn good reason, which you actually don't, or... you have some motive that you're hiding. Out with it.

[Equinox]

Why are you so secretive?

I'm not, I have nothing to hide.

Do. Can't. Sorry.

Lynch All Liars

...just kidding. Maybe.

I have a question that will definitely be taken the wrong way, but I have to ask it. How certain are you in your read of me?

[Equinox]

I apologize for weaving yet another layer to an already complicated game... (Mass groan?)

Either I am horribly wrong and making assumptions again, or I have just received doctor breadcrumbs from two different players. There is no way you two could have "confirmed" me in that manner without extra information. At least one of you is a lying scumbag.

I am going to take a very large gamble here. Charlie and Robocopter87, 'fess up.

[Equinox]

And I hate claims because they're worth almost nothing. There hasn't been a counter claim, and it's fairly obvious that we have town PR's amongst us, but I'm a little taken aback at how quickly Cay's wagon dissolved. Even before a counter claim was truly possible from all parties. What's the backup lynch? Me again, really? I'm not saying I disbelieve the claim, but I am certainly thrown off by how quickly and wholly it was accepted.

Do you have a reason to disbelieve the claim? Caycedo has backed it up. You did not state your stance on this at all.

At least you came out with an opinion that you don't like Charlie's case.

And chihuahua0... was actually a really easy lynch. Something about having a couple of votes already, me voting, someone else following me, and someone else hammering by deadline.

[Equinox]

Hmm... considering that the fastest people to move on and off were Equinox, NicolBolas, and Robocopter87, that

is

interesting.

I easily accepted the claim because my case was based on him having a night action. If he's scum, he may have caught this and decided to claim. On the other hand, he had a very clear switch in stances that substantiated the claim.

Aw, crap.

In this post, Equinox realizes she did something very, very stupid.

That... was a very bad mistake on my part and a very unnecessary gamble. That also means I have found the scum. Lynch!

Unvote, Vote: Charlie

[Equinox]

Charlie:

You're calling a Caycedo and Robocopter87 scum team, yet you seem to still be attached to the My Milked Eek lynch. Why?

On what basis do you think Caycedo is scum with Robocopter87?

[Equinox]

I've seen cop claims go like that all sorts of ways. The difference here is Caycedo's claim is substantiated.

Equinox, your vote isn't on the right place but I cannot blame you for you used the elimination method of scumhunting. I need no defence.

I didn't actually use process of elimination. Why do you say this?

[Equinox]

Because you voted me after saying you can't really get a read on me. Am I mistaking apples for oranges again?

Well, I couldn't get a read on you earlier in the game day. I dropped it after I saw what you posted. I then realized Robocopter87 was doing the same thing. From there, I thought one of you was lying. And then I remembered that I should've realized this from the beginning. How ridiculously stupid of me... x_x

If you're not the scumbag I think you are, prove to me Caycedo is wrong.

[Equinox]

But, can you show me where charlie "breadcrumbed"? if so, i'll follow you on charlie.

Robocopter87 (598): Equinox, if you could DayVig anyone right now, who would you shoot?
Equinox (599): Charlie. I am confused about this slot. I couldn't read Morthas, and I can't get a grip on my read of Charlie, either. Sometimes he seems pro-town, but then he... isn't.
Charlie (607): Do you think I'm mafia or town?
Equinox (608): To be honest, I don't know. I can't read you.
Charlie (645): Equinox, who else do you think is mafia besides me? I ask because of late, I think you're town.
Equinox (651): I'm not ready to start pairing people up yet. And why are you telling me you think I'm town?
Charlie (657): Equinox, not a good idea? NicolBolas, I'd default to Equinox, but his vote is on me.
Equinox (659): If your case against Equinox does not boil down to OMGUS, you should have no problem presenting it.
Charlie (660): Equinox, you misunderstood me. By defaulting to you, I meant to your judgment of who the mafia is, not me defaulting to vote for you.

Charlie is, from what I can tell, hinting that he has somehow confirmed Equinox. This was the first breadcrumb I got, so I dropped the case on him. This was also around the time when we were on Caycedo, so I pushed his read of Robocopter87 aside for the moment. When I saw the second crumb, I completely forgot one of them had already been confirmed. That was ridiculously stupid of me, and I apologize to the town.

[Equinox]

Town power roles may leave subtle hints they can refer back to when they need to claim. If the crumb is specific enough, it will back up the claim and make it more believable. For example, I can say:

"

C

an't we just say that we need to lynch Charlie today and leave it at that?

O

f course, we can always lynch him later, but I'd rather do it now.

P

roblem is, he's not the scummiest player around."

When I need to claim cop later, I can refer to this statement.

Here's a good way to describe the perfect breadcrumb:

A good breadcrumb is one that is irrefutably descriptive, but impossibly subtle.

Robocopter87: Charlie seemed to have confirmed me as town. When I inquired, he refused to state why. Everyone else would've said they just had a good town read on me. Given there was no murder last night, we were looking at either a purposeful No Kill (which nobody does) or a successful doctor save. Charlie didn't have a reason to investigate me last night. Ergo... different form of confirmation.

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

Given there was no murder last night, we were looking at either a purposeful No Kill (which nobody does

on Night 1

) or a successful doctor save.

Oh, and also:

How the hell did we get to L-1 so fast? Stop following me, NicolBolas and Robocopter87. I am not your leader.

[Equinox]

No way...there are more than those three letters capitalized in that sentence. I am not buying it...

Hahaha. That was just the example. (I wouldn't breadcrumb like that anyway. It's too difficult to connect to a claim later, as your doubt demonstrates here.)

I may offer up some better examples later in post-game analysis. Right now, scum can flail away.

[Equinox]

Also, I know perfectly well the first letter of each sentence thing. I know breadcrumbing. I understand this, I understand how you got a breadcrumb out of it. Now, lets confirm it with Charlies Claim.

...uh, that was for Ant_to_the_max. You definitely wouldn't have needed that from me. ;o

[Equinox]

I simply don't believe that Caycedo-cop investigated Robo-town. More likely Caycedo-scum "investigated" Robo-scum. That is the basis of my case.

Why?

[Equinox]

Optimized PR claiming for maximum levels of confusion.

Do you think this was all planned from the start, then? Caycedo's behavior from Day 1 to Day 2 substantiated the claim.

[Equinox]

Sigh.

Apathy makes me want a flip. We have a few days left to unite and decide on a lynch.

Robocopter87, I don't understand you. You appeared to be fine with Caycedo following the claim, unless I'm misremembering something, and now that someone has put a finger on it, you jump on Caycedo's posts. Yeah. I don't get it. Further, without explaining what you found okay with Charlie, you jumped on My Milked Eek. Makes me want to vig you again.

Charlie, what makes you think it was a "last ditch effort"? Specifics would be good. You saw the case that backed up Caycedo's claim. I want to see the one that goes against it.

If I'm just as confused tomorrow, I may just go right back to my default lynch in the game, which is startransmission. Confusion is bad. Leads to disinterest. :/

[Equinox]

Well, Caycedo's claim made sense, but Cyacedos last post was scummy, I don't think Cayceo is lying. But I don't like it. Who do you want to lynch Equinox?

My vote's on Charlie for the moment. Claim hasn't convinced me.

My gut also wants startransmission dead at some point.

[Equinox]

Caycedo was suspicious enough of Robocopter87 on Day 1 to place a vote. Ever since Day 2 started, he's been playing the hands-off approach. His play is consistent with information.

I didn't expect you to respond to my statement about your claim. I expected something that would convince me; usually, a case does the job.

But the immediate acceptance of his claim is nagging at me.

The quick construction and destruction of wagons in general in this game is also bothersome. Perhaps they are related...

I understand that my quiet nature in this game might make people suspicious of me, but I've been on the chopping block here before, and there's yet to be a case against me.

It's the quiet ones you've got to watch, yes, but the thing that's been bothering me is you haven't been pushing anything... from what I can tell. You even had periods where you ignored this game while posting elsewhere (976); you've even admitted to this. Makes me think you were actively lurking.

[Equinox]

Here, less homework:

{

Ant_to_the_max

, Equinox, NicolBolas, Robocopter87}

(Italicizing Ant_to_the_max to show he was only on Caycedo's wagon and not all the other ones I made today. For my own reference, really.)

I fail to see what the problem you had with Caycedo's wagon's disintegration was when you yourself believe the claim ("leaning")... but if you want to address how quickly wagons have dissolved in general, you should probably eye NicolBolas.

In other news, distinct lack of votes from My Milked Eek and startransmission are disturbing my spreadsheet. :<

[Equinox]

I never immediately accepted his claim.

I'm just waiting to see how it plays out, yes I think that he isn't lying atm. But this could change *snap* like that. It already started to but not enough to call him scum.

Yet...

Caycedo's claim is makes sense.

Don't put nails into Charlie's case. kthx

[Equinox]

Alright, you people do know that we are very close to deadline? I don't want such a policy lynch for Day 2 too. So, once again, my vote changes.

unvote, vote Charlie

Unless you sincerely believe Charlie is scum, you're policy lynching. Your earlier suspect was My Milked Eek. Do you think there's a connection between the two? Or are you just avoiding a No Lynch while not presenting any case against MME?

Let me look at the different set ups.

Somehow, I don't like how you decided to delve into this now instead of before, when I declared we had the first setup. Padding, perhaps. IGMEOY.

Further, your post is a giant wad of information fluff. Have you made up your mind on Charlie yet?

[Equinox]

I accept responsibility for that loss. Sorry, guys.

I'm going to wait for Caycedo before I start pushing anything.

In the meantime, I'm going to go read Charlie in isolation to look for stray FoSing, and then I'll take a look at Ant_to_the_max's. Going by NK speculation, I may be having off-reads, so I... will have to look at everyone else, too. How annoying. =_=;

[Equinox]

FTR, nobody has an alibi. Everyone has been on at some point on Saturday.

'cuz metagaming is cool. 8)

[Equinox]

Here, I'll save you the trouble and make it public: link

Don't rely on this

too

much. I update every couple of whims, and occasionally I screw up. The spreadsheet will also self-destruct upon my death, so it's in the scum's best interests to try killing me again tomorrow evening! (If we don't lynch you, that is...)

I haven't done any reading, so I don't have anything new to bring to the table except a few thoughts on recent posts.

What NicolBolas says appears to be true from looking at the spreadsheet. The startransmission wagon stayed at L-1 for about 23 posts, and that seemed to be close to the end of Day 1. I think the reason was it was startransmission's birthday or something, and they didn't want to hammer him on his birthday. I'll take a look again at who brought that up...

Something about the NK is bothering me. Why the doctor? Why the utterly whimsical and vote-hopping doctor? Back to WIFOM land I go.

[Equinox]

I see we have one mislynch remaining before LyLo. I'm going to use it, mainly because something about that night kill bothers me. It's... not the right move.

VOTE: Ant_to_the_max L-1

Screw reading. Flips are better.

[Equinox]

What NicolBolas says appears to be true from looking at the spreadsheet. The startransmission wagon stayed at L-1 for about 23 posts, and that seemed to be close to the end of Day 1. I think the reason was it was startransmission's birthday or something, and they didn't want to hammer him on his birthday. I'll take a look again at who brought that up...

I lied. The birthday thing was all Robocopter87. Charlie just ignored the startransmission wagon; rather, he pushed My Milked Eek, and then commended Robocopter87 when he switched to Caycedo. Hmm...

From quick iso reading, Charlie ignored Ant_to_the_max for most of Day 2. The only time he posted a read of Ant_to_the_max was when he did his catch-up, and it was a "scummy/everyone else" sort of thing. When he did the voting pattern analysis, he put Ant_to_the_max at null due to lack of an actual pattern. Hmm...

Vote stands.

[Equinox]

We need My Milked Eek to come in here and weigh in, anyway.

[Equinox]

Well, it's Day 3. Chances are the day is going to end early, but I don't think we should cut it off just yet, either. At least, not until both Ant_to_the_max and startransmission have had the chance to talk it all out and get me to solidify my read on at least one of them.

Ant_to_the_max: It's because we already talked about setup speculation (actually, more like, "I say this is the setup and we're not arguing," but still) way before you did, so I felt it was suspicious that you chose to bring it up right then. Also, when you did it, your post was mostly information with very little analysis. One can attribute that to a newbie unsure of what to think, but it's also something scum do when they're uncertain of what opinions to hold.

[Equinox]

It's a bit quiet. Actually, it's quite disturbing.

Unvote

I admit I haven't been reading, so I'll need to go back and look over the new stuff. I don't think I'm as happy with a chain lynch as I thought I was before...

[Equinox]

Get well soon, Ant_to_the_max!

I've lost track of what I say and where... I think I promised to do a couple of isolation reads here. I'm going to go catch up first, and if I'm not too sleepy, I'll get right on that reading.

I'm probably lying.

NicolBolas, I apologize if you've touched on this already somewhere and I just didn't read it yet. Does the fact that Ant_to_the_max and startransmission are posting sense somehow affect your reads of them?

[Equinox]

/facepalm

This is what happens when I don't read. Sorry.

And yes. I got home from work but then had to go off and see my great grandfather. He passed away that night. I didn't know how long we would be out that night.

I'm sorry for your loss, Ant_to_the_max.

Quote wall incoming...

Last night, I investigated startrans, but received a no-result.

I am not surprised.

First things first, let's check if robocopter breadcrumbed who he protected night 1.

WAIT, WHAT?

Like I said before on Cay's case, I didn't feel like Equinox's "times do not match case" was an instant vote Cay now kinda case. I wanted other people's opinion on if a case like that was good enough to warrant a lynch.

If you felt it did not warrant a vote, then it did not warrant a vote. Why consult others when you already have an opinion?

As for the IOA posts I would attribute that to my newbness on what exactly is the key information people pick out when trying to peg people as scum. I'm trying to look at the big picture of things and see if I can see anything that jumps out from there. As for the little things I am not sure what is gold and what is trash.

That is not what I saw in 956 (game's over). At any rate, how would you looking for key information be related to your information-over-analysis posts? If you look for the big picture, you look for the big picture; there's no need to make a post about it.

It wasn't a sudden urge that I brought it up. It was being debated before I brought it up...I wanted to point out how statistically Charlie's claim against Cay's claim didn't make sense/seem in the best interest of the town. He wanted to take a risk with very low odds in our favor.

Charlie claimed against Caycedo?

Anyways, Thanks for that post Equinox. It looks really good. If you feel like this is the right thing to do, then go ahead. I just hope you can nail the right guy tomorrow.

For the record, buddying up to Equinox doesn't work. It tends to backfire.

I was the one who saw that it was startrans' birthday (Thought I'd save you some postcombing.)

I stand corrected.

I can't speak for Nicol, but the flip of Robo as doctor makes there being a cop far more likely.

How? Setup is randomly determined.

Equinox lead the wagon against Charlie, so I am assuming he is town here, and from the rest of his posts and actions before.

Uh... I'm sorta confirmed...

If I was scum, why would I have let Star go at L-1 yesterday and let the heat move to Charlie?

I'd be willing to bet good in-game money that scum did not foresee the heat on Charlie. They may have expected it to come, but they could not have predicted the timing. Scum did not hammer startransmission probably because they feared the unavoidable scrutiny on Day 3 and planned on waiting until deadline. Unfortunately, heat came on Charlie once he got counterclaimed.

Interesting you asked the question. I WONDER.

I would assume that the last scum would be actively on my wagon, so I am fine sticking with Star still.

{

Caycedo

,

Equinox

, NicolBolas, startransmission}

* = Caycedo expressed intent to hammer but hasn't voted. Equinox unvoted.

I'm guessing you're implying it's startransmission.

---

Hmm.

Setting up chain lynches is bad. [ - town points ]
Missing obvcrumbing is bad. [ - town points ]
Good, well-backed cases are good. [ + town points ]
Meh on self-defense, slightly convinced. [ + town points ]

Yeah, that refers to four different people. I'm bored.

Top suspect is still Ant_to_the_max. I'll need to read moar before I make a firm decision, though, because I have a few other suspects to look at again.

I'll be out for most of the day tomorrow, so if I get anything done, it'll be in the evening at least.

[Equinox]

Yes. It means you haven't been paying attention, which worries me.

[Equinox]

@equinox what do you mean by chainlynching?

Setting up a chain of lynches.

For example:

We're going to lynch Ant_to_the_max today, and if he flips town, we lynch startransmission.

Normally, it's a bad idea as it helps scum narrow down their NK options, and it can easily lead a town to tunnel vision. If someone flips town, it's better to simply keep your options open (and keep scum guessing).

[Equinox]

EBWOP: Place quotes around my example sentence. I don't intend to set up any chains. I'm having enough trouble with too many suspects as it is.

Sigh. Decisions, decisions. I'd elaborate, but I am going to think this through REALLY hard before I decide whether or not to say what's on my mind... lest I make another large-scale blunder.

In short: We have 1 mislynch. I have 3 suspects.

[Equinox]

startransmission: What did you think of the interaction between Morthas (Charlie) and Twinkie (NicolBolas)?

All right. I suddenly got a burst of motivation to actually play Mafia (!), so I'm going to go use that to full advantage here. I'm probably just lying again, though... Who knows?

[Equinox]

RE: Buddying

Honestly, what you made looks very clean and well organized. >_> Totally something I would like to try and make in future games.

Thank you. I was referring to your comment about hoping I'd lynch the right guy tomorrow, though.

RE: Breadcrumbing

I asked about what that was this game. >_> So I was never looking for any. I planned on asking at the end of this game what you guys were talking about in Robo's talk because I thought I found something but wasn't sure. And I know how bringing it up in public would be a bad thing.

Ah, I forgot about that. Basically, both Charlie and Robocopter87 dropped hints that I was protected on Night 1. I've already pointed out how Charlie did this; Robocopter87 crumbed when I asked him how sure he was with his town read of me. His response was along the lines of, "I'm positive."

---

All right, so... I was confused earlier because I didn't know how to use this last mislynch to maximum effectiveness. I had three suspects -- Ant_to_the_max, My Milked Eek, and startransmission -- all of whom I wanted to lynch today. I sort of fell off the face of the earth after that. Anyway, now I've finally finished the reading that I promised I would do.

Based on Morthas's posts, I'd be willing to wager this game that NicolBolas (Twinkie) and startransmission (Brejnev) are town.

Based on Charlie's posts, I'd be willing to wager this game that My Milked Eek is town.

That leaves Ant_to_the_max and Caycedo. Something interesting about Ant_to_the_max is that he was pretty much on IGMEOY mode on Day 1, and then he took solid stances early Day 2 before he started to defer to other players he considered town. Toward the middle and end of the day, he was more informational than analytical. I've also noticed that he has played the inexperience card a few times when he was asked to provide opinions, which worries me. Equally worrying is his fear of LyLo and his references to the wiki. Newbie scum behavior.

Ant_to_the_max appears to be more pro-town today with the accusations against My Milked Eek and startransmission; however, with the amount of pressure he's under right now, anyone would try harder. I'm sorry, but...

VOTE: Ant_to_the_max

Time for me to stalk everyone else and look for some RQS answers.

[Equinox]

If Netopalis is following the weekends = 24 hours guideline, they will be eligible late Tuesday.

I'm interested in seeing startransmission's case, as well.

[Equinox]

Deadline is in 5 days, folks. Decide on a lynch or get your cases ready.

[Equinox]

I will be on V/LA from August 12 to 14.

Deadline will be on August 15, so there's no worry there.

I'll catch up when I get back. Long posts are long.

[Equinox]

I HAVE RETURNED!

I see we have a deadline extension, which gives us some time to look at what's happened. I don't like how the wagon derailed with two players absent, as that runs town the risk of not lynching. Whether or not scumtransmission would deliberately do that is debatable. I'll look, though... 'cuz I have to and all that.

Definitely hoping to hear from Caycedo and My Milked Eek soon, if they can make it back on time.

Deadline isn't immediate, so I'll have stuff tomorrow... if I don't get a bout of insomnia from all the caffeine I ingested during my return. >_>

[Equinox]

Okay, that's me not paying any attention at all. startransmission revoted Ant_to_the_max prior to my departure, and Ant_to_the_max jumped on NicolBolas soon after. I guess all we're waiting on now is for one of the two absent players to come in here and hammer

the remaining scum

.

Based on voting pattern alone, I'd say Ant_to_the_max's stinks of self-preservation. I NEED TO READ, THOUGH, SO DON'T TAKE MY WORD ON THIS YET. D:

Yes, I plan on spamming the thread until we hit 50. Nobody's ever going to replace at that point.

[Equinox]

Ugh. I did not expect

that

.

[Equinox]

Judging from Ant_to_the_max's "Bah!" post, we have just used our final mislynch.

Tomorrow is MyLo. Whatever you do, do not lynch in MyLo.

Scum, kill me again. Robocopter87 isn't around to save me anymore. Do it before I hunt you down and string you up while town cheers to your demise.

[Equinox]

Also, everyone, anything to add before the mod comes in and either ends the game or we go to night? Any thoughts?

That's an interesting question. The other, equally interesting question is: Who would benefit from the responses to your question?

Food for thought.

[Equinox]

I'm not sure if that hammer by mme was scummy or not. What do you think of mme an charlie's interactions? Would you think it is scummy?

Are you trying to decide whether or not to kill the IC?

[Equinox]

Umm, so if I am thinking strait, tomorrow it will be 4 people and 3 to lynch, and if you incorrectly lynch then it is game.

Also, if I believe what the scum will do tonight, it would be in your best interest to lynch someone and not do a no lynch because a no lynch will not let you gain any information and you will still have horrible odds.

Yes, it would be 4 alive, 3 to lynch. That's a mislynch-and-lose (MyLo) situation. If you lynch a townie, it's game over. However, in MyLo, you have the option of not lynching; not lynching moves the game to night (almost) immediately and gives town another chance to narrow down the list of suspects. It is better to do a No Lynch in MyLo.

If you do not lynch on Day 4, you will be in a lynch-or-lose (LyLo) situation on Day 5. You absolutely need to lynch, and lynch correctly, when that occurs.

Do we benefit from discussion in MYLO? Or should we just nolynch?

My thoughts on this are that if you discuss in MyLo, scum will have an idea of who people suspect and will kill and manipulate town accordingly. However, lack of discussion can be bad, since you won't hear from whoever dies on Night 4. I'll let you guys decide what to do tomorrow.

Does MME always use that "never show when I am on" option?

Yes.

[Equinox]

Also, I'm just trying to wring out every bit of discussion possible before night.

And why would d you interpret that as trying to decide wheter to kill the ic?

I'm in an accusatory mood. Your attempt to get discussion out of us in twilight does not feel pro-town to me, even though it

seems

pro-town. Your question about how we feel about My Milked Eek can very easily be interpreted as trying to figure out how beneficial it would be to kill the IC.