Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[xvart]

Happy hunting!

Vote: Friend

I have enough friends.

xvart.

[xvart]

Vote: xvart

You're lying, you have no friends.

lol. Fair point. My online persona was supposed to make me feel otherwise, so thanks for destroying my self esteem!

I think I'll vote Friend since I just voted him in the other game (popularity mafia)
VOTE: Friend, for scaring that poor cat

Hmmm... I don't like this vote because it is one of those boderline random/not random votes. Even though the non-random vote had absurd justification, why did you need to follow up with a RVS justification of "scaring that poor cat"?

now... since I'd actually like to get out of the RVS fast, I'll ask some questions for you to answer...

1) Are you scum?
2) What's the role you prefer to play (nothing to uncommon please), which role do you prefer between townie and scum?
3) What role you hate having in the setup/play against (nothing uncommon please)?
4) What do you think about bandwagons in early game, what in late game?
5) How would you characterize your playing style?
6) What do you think about RVS?
7) How do you hope to find scum?

1. No;
   
2. I think roles that require a lot of outside the box thinking; mostly that come up in theme games;
   
3. I haven't come across a game with a role that I hated;
   
4. I think bandwagons early game are wonderful. Late game, I think they are not as great as there is more personal information available and seeing who is bandwagoning and why can be determined by previous play;
   
5. I don't think I have a specific playstyle, but I typically focus on one scummy person and press that person until I am convinced otherwise or that person is lynched;
   
6. I don't really have an opinion about RVS other than I find it annoying that it seems inevitable that the debate about the value of RVS tends to come up;
   
7. Why are you asking? You want to know what to avoid doing?

this is just so I can get a sort of personality profile... people tend to play differently when playing roles they like than if they play roles they don't like...
just because one says he likes to play cops, that doesn't influence whether he is cop or not...

Do you think having these personality profiles is more beneficial for scum or for town?

So... How are your questions NOT rolefishing? You said that you want people to answer your questions so you could attempt to figure out their role later in the game. Hurrrrrrrr.

I tend to agree, and despite any WIFOM arguments knowing what roles people prefer to play can be more beneficial to scum because if they have no other leads they can always fall back on "well this person said they don't prefer playing powerroles and he doesn't appear to be enjoying this game, so maybe that person is a powerrole."

unvote

I see my RVS plan was successful.

What RVS plan?

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart: look at my last post

Yeah, I missed that. You think that your second vote on Friend generated the discussion that is going on? We should all thank you for that vote?

definitely town... scum already has (almost) all information they need... if I know more about you, it will be easier for me to find out whether you are scum or not...

The scums know who are the townies and who are the scums. But like townies, they can learn more. Information is helpful to town, but the downside is that they can sometimes be helpful mainly to scums. Scums want power roles dead before normal townies and

by asking those questions, you are giving the scums an advantage.

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?
how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

I already gave you the answer to this. Say someone responded that they like a specific power role and then that person lurks, says something along the lines of I having trouble getting into this game, etc. In scum eyes, that may not be a solid case for determining if that person should be NK'ed; but it certainly is evidence to support that that person is not enjoying the game and is probably not one of the roles he previously mentioned that he enjoyed playing. In addition, asking how people characterize their playstyle also gives clues to the mafia if someone is not behaving in the way they described. You are taking the information=pro town a little too literally; as more information is pro-town as long as it comes out fluidly in the game.

because that's the same justification I gave in the other game... simple as that

The justification you gave in the other game was because he scared a poor cat?

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry, didn't see the third page. Some of my commentary is redundant.

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?

Read the post. I said that information is helpful to the town, but sometimes, they benefit scums more then town. But generally, no, they do not hurt the town because without information, town cannot make informed lynch decisions.

that's exactly what I am saying...

So you think it's okay to okay to provide opportunities that may be more advantageous to scum?

xvart.

[xvart]

the "that's what I'm saying" point is that generally information doesn't hurt town since the need it to make lynch decisions

The town needs character profiles in order to make lynch decisions?

I'm not claiming sole responsibility for ending RVS, I'm just saying that my usual plan for getting out of RVS worked, regardless of because what I did or not.

But you are claiming some responsibility; so show me where the conversation occurred about bandwagoning or the person you bandwagoned occurred. AND, you then say your plan for getting out of RVS worked, whether you did it or not; so logically, you are saying because what I did failed, we still got out of RVS. The fact that you are trying to take credit for something to gain town points is highly suspicious. Care to link to games where you enacted your usual plan?

Plus, your vote on Tasky was extremely opportunistic.

Unvote
Vote: diddin

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart, while I can see where diddin might be seen as scummy for that comment, I don't fully agree. Also, the underlined sentence? That is an enormous logical fallacy. What he was saying was "look, what I was trying to do was accomplished, even if it wasn't by my hand." That, by no means, equates to "look, what I was trying to do was accomplished BECAUSE I SCREWED UP."

diddin is claiming some level of responsibility for the town now being out of the RVS stage.
diddin also said that [his] usual plan for getting out of RVS worked, regardless of because what [he] did or not [do].
Maybe my phrasing was a little off the first time so I'll try again:
Essentially, what diddin said was:

Even if my typical plan had nothing to do with getting us out of RVS, my plan still worked, because we are now out of RVS.

Check the logical fallacy on that one. He's claiming responsibility for something he had nothing to do with.

Don't try to push suspicion on people for pretty much nonexistent reasons. I will not stand for it.

lol? It is hardly non-existent (as I hope I have clarified); but your jumping to his defense is duly noted. I also like how you tried to butter me up by saying you can see where diddin might be scummy for his comment and then go right ahead and blast my logic as a fallacy and how you won't stand for it. If everything about what I said was nonexistent and a fallacy, how pray tell do you see where he could be scummy?

FoS: quadz08

xvart.

[xvart]

And yes, I agree that what Diddin said is contradictory. However, I believe it to be a result of poor word choice, not of an attempt to look more townie. It's far too blatant (and too illogical) for that to fly.

And you felt the need to interject on his behalf why? Could he not have explained that himself? Also, what was the point of the comment at all, if it wasn't to score town points?

Defending people is a scum tell, period.

Heaven forbid I have a differing opinion on a player from someone else, amirite? That was a very foolish statement, methinks.

Says the guy who blatantly defended diddin for no reason.

Hm. You're right. Didn't catch that.

Although his unvote still reeks.

You seem to be trying to build a case no matter what. Everything about this post (and the one immediately afterwards) seems to be an afterthought.

Oh, my original reasons were incorrect; but this is still scummy for

this

reason. Oh, by the way, and this reason that has already been stated also supports my argument.

Ok, let me try to explain my wording. From my experience of playing mafia, a bandwagon in RVS helps generate discussion to end RVS. I am trying to imply a CORRELATION between my wagon and RVS ending so quickly, not necessarily a CAUSATION. The comment was meant to be halfway sarcastic and you guys took it way too seriously.

And, correlation does not mean anything. Correlationally speaking, if I decided to go swimming and then it rained, my decision to go swimming had nothing to do with it raining; so me announcing to the world that

my plan

to get it to rain worked is ludicrous.

I've just read through the thread and absolutely none of it has managed to stick in my head... Probably has something to so with it being 0:30 and having spent the whole day melting my brain with Thermodynamics calculations of doom.

Er...

Vote: q21

For his blatantly, if inadvertently, lurking through the first 5 pages of the game.

Are you trying to make a joke out of not being around because it is scummy and you hope to negate that? The fact that you have read the

entire five pages

and you have no better place to put your vote than on yourself is shocking.

I was scum hunting. I asked friend a question so I can get him out of the neutral zone. I liked his response and now he's in the town pile. You will see that after I post all my reads.

So you asked him a question with the intention of getting a solid read on Friend? That solid read was established by one question? What are your other reads? Are you trying now to get a solid read on others by moving them out of the neutral zone?

xvart.

[xvart]

You seem to be trying to build a case no matter what. Everything about this post (and the one immediately afterwards) seems to be an afterthought. Oh, my original reasons were incorrect; but this is still scummy for this reason. Oh, by the way, and this reason that has already been stated also supports my argument.

And the problem with this is..?
I made a mistake in my original reasoning. Despite that, his other posts were still scummy.

Yes, but everything is an afterthought. If you had those thoughts about the case originally they would have been included...

originally

. Once the first point was proven incorrect you came back with he is still scummy for other reasons. Then, immediately afterwards: this reason too!

So if my opinion and my actions didn't match up, that'd be worse, right?

Of course; my point was more it is expected for you to say that since you have already been found to be blatantly defending someone for no apparent reason. Also, you missed my question:

Also, what was the point of the comment at all, if it wasn't to score town points?

---

It is not scummy that I missed the first 5 pages because I hadn't even seen my role PM yet. Yes, its a little pathetic that I didn't notice the new PM... but not scummy. That read of the game was made when my brain was completely fried, very little stuck so instead of voting completely randomly or posting nothing I did something with the potential to evoke some interesting reactions.

Interestingly enough that you didn't mention any of that in your initial post. Yes, I believe you that you didn't see the role PM. Also, you honestly think that self voting five pages in is more productive than just saying, missed my role pm, read the game but didn't get anything because my brain is fried. Expect more later; or something along those lines? My point is that from my perspective it is an honest mistake to miss a role pm. But scum would have more of a reason to justify it or catch themselves before anyone else can call them out on the behavior, which is exactly what you did.

Town see someone self vote in their first post (even after 5 pages) and most of the time they'll laugh a little and move on. Scum on the other hand feel they need to jump on everything and as a result they jump on that self vote. On its own its hardly enough to condemn anyone, but your response and SSBF's earlier was enough to catch my attention.

Seriously? You think someone self voting on page five when there is actual scumhunting/discussion going on would just be laughed off? That's laughable, and now you are reaching to try and make those that called you out on it

appear

to be the scum. The fact that you are softly trying to build a case or a level of suspicion on the people calling you out on the self vote is suspicious; and if I wasn't so

Just because you defend the person who you have a town read on doesn't mean that the person won't be lynched and it also doesn't mean the person is town-aligned.

Furthermore, scum have incentive to defend someone they know is town so if that person is lynched they score major town points for being against a mislynch.

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP: Got distracted and forgot to finish my thought.

and if I wasn't so

...and if I wasn't so torn between the diddin/quadz relationship I would now be voting you.

Unvote

I still don't like diddin claim and justification of the causality of ending RVS, but I think quadz's defense of diddin and q21's most recent post are most indicative of scum. Expect my vote to be placed on one of these two shortly.

xvart.

[xvart]

Is that July 15th - July 31st you will be away?

When you said you were going to post after work I assumed it would be some level of actual content...

xvart.

[xvart]

The point would be to get my opinion across on diddin's comment. Yes, it was a defense of what he said. However, I think that every opinion expressed in this game is, at its core, either an attack or a defense of another player. If the only opinions you express are attacking opinions, then that's your choice. That doesn't make a defense a scummy play.

I don't exactly agree with your point in concept. I think there is defending people and there is not supporting someone's argument. The latter is typically used and I find it suspicious when someone else jumps in and answers for someone or defends someone. If you are looking for how someone responds or want some straight answers it helps when they respond first, and not be prompted by someone else.

@xvart: So I caught something immediately after I posted. Again, what's wrong with that?

Forced? How so?

I'm just trying to show that doubleposting is not a scumtell.

I never said doubleposting was a scumtell. And the fact that you said you caught something after you posted when there was a minute in between posts is interesting.

It's interesting, though, that you should ask I why I didn't mention things that I did mention. Shows that the only thing you paid attention to in that first post of mine was the self vote (something you could attack me for). Not reading all the content of a post, especially such a short post, is scummy.

Nice deflection back on me. I obviously read your post, and the only thing relevant to the game is the fact that you self voted (and your "justification").

It's interesting, though, that you should ask I why I didn't mention things that I did mention. Shows that the only thing you paid attention to in that first post of mine was the self vote (something you could attack me for). Not reading all the content of a post, especially such a short post, is scummy.

Lets analyse the responses to that self vote... 9 out of 11 players other than myself moved on without so much as a comment (maybe they laughed, maybe they didn't; I don't know, I don't have little cameras at everyone's computers to see if they're laughing). 2 out of eleven people called me out for it. Even if neither you not SSBF are scum, those numbers still prove that most townies paid it very little mind.

So, hypothetically if only two people catch a scumtell it is invalid?

As to why I don't care if vezo is scum or town now? Because I don't. Whatever his alignment is, I believe that his drawing a lot of heat, whether he intended to or not, has exposed scum. Namely you. If you get lynched and I am proved right, then I have no problem seeing if it can be done again tomorrow using vezo and I still won't care what alignment he is. If the conversation surrounding vezo keeps drawing out scum, I'm in favor of keeping him around until it doesn't. Then I'll consider looking at his alignment.

Well now that you have found scum connections as you were trying to do you still don't care if vezok is scum or town?

I would support a Kage lynch, too.

Tasky has stated that he will be v/la for 16 days, and seeing as the deadline for one game day is 14 days he will miss out on a significant portion of the game, so I've decided it's up to you guys whether you're happy to have him remain in the game or if you would rather him be replaced.

I don't know whether I will be able to get an internet connection in the place I'll going... if I am, then I could post sometimes (not often, but every two or three days)...
I'd make a proposal, you wait to replace me until the 20th and if I haven't posted until then it means I have no internet and if the other players want it, you can replace me at that point...

Yep okay, that sounds good. Another possible option is if you know of someone who might be willing to replace you just while you're away (kind of acting like a fill-in), I think that would be okay.

I say that's fine, as long as Tasky sets up an minimum time that he would post to know if he won't be replaced. If he doesn't make his deadline, replace him. I can't say I'm a fan of the idea of temporary substitute.

xvart.

[xvart]

You say interesting...interesting as in scummy? Interesting is an INCREDIBLY vague word and it should be banned from scumhunters' vocabulary.

The reason I say "interesting" is because you said you caught something between your post and your doublepost. Not that you remembered it or forgot something but that you "caught" something (which reads to me as you went back and did some reading and noticed something else). While this may just be semantics, it also might suggest that you were trying to back peddle after I questioned you about it. That's why I said interesting and not necessarily scummy. Something to keep in mind, for sure.

@Oso - Talk about major quote failure. This was the buried question in that mess:

Well now that you have found scum connections as you were trying to do you still don't care if vezok is scum or town?

xvart.

[xvart]

It's interesting, though, that you should ask I why I didn't mention things that I did mention. Shows that the only thing you paid attention to in that first post of mine was the self vote (something you could attack me for). Not reading all the content of a post, especially such a short post, is scummy.

Nice deflection back on me. I obviously read your post, and the only thing relevant to the game is the fact that you self voted (and your "justification").

So then why ask me about why I didn't include things if those things weren't relevant? (despite the fact that I did include some of them)

Because the only thing game relevant was the self vote. The rest was just your personal business which doesn't really matter to me (other than the context of the self vote). I think you're missing the point of the original suspicion I had of you: Lurking is generally considered anti-town at best and scummy at worst. You pop in, make a joke about not being around self-voting. In my eyes, a scummy person is more likely to try and deflect the attention of being a lurker by making a joke. Town people have nothing to hide. And the fact that you immediately call my behavior scummy is mildly concerning to me; say you are town, you don't think it's possible for town to find something scummy about another town member? Isn't that what mafia is all about? Determining who is town and who is scum? When two people expressed suspicion over something you did it is automatically scum motivated? And you really think that both of us are on a scum team and decided to attack you on this? Now that I think about it, your immediate OMGUS without the vote is more indicative of scum than town.

No, I didn't say that. If only two people catch a scumtell then its up to those two people to bring it to everyone else's attention. Thing is, selfvoting like that isn't a scumtell. My point was not that I thought 9 players missed my self vote, I reckon everyone saw it (its a kinda obvious thing), but that most of the other players figured it wasn't worth calling me out on.

But the majority of the town not speaking out doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed and doesn't mean it should simply be dismissed.

2. he is/was the centre of attention of a lot of peoples posts... since a lot of peoples have debated against/for/with him, making him flip will give us more information that anyones else's flip

I don't really like this. It sounds like a justification for a mislynch.

Hey, hey flipped town but at least we learned a bunch about a lot of people!

it's a way to show how scummy I evaluate different posts... so that my logic is clearer and if there is something you don't agree with it's easier to discuss about it...

Comparisons like this only mean something to me if you have comparison samples. It really doesn't mean much if the only two people sampled are at -0.75 and -0.50 if everyone else would yield a result of -2.0.

Tasky's play resemble's a townie a lot more. He is finally contributing to the game and making stances. I'll still keep a close eye on him, thought. For example, I thought his ISO of diddin and vezokpiraka contained some unecessary information, especially the points where he passes them off as null tells, those can be cut off unless he has something worthwhile to say about them. Looking forward to hearing more out of the slot.

For someone who is a lot more town now, you sure do go out of your way to explain reasons why you are keeping your eye on him. If those reasons were more substantial I would be concerned.

[xvart]

Welcome, replacements. Humble - we've played together before but I don't remember what game. Was it that one that got abandoned by the moderator?

xvart.

[xvart]

Unvote: Vote: Humble Poirot

Humble is 100% scum, confirmed..B4 you all ask me how and why I AM 10000% about this..I will not roleclaim.....also after he is lynched and flips scum, please can I get protected tonight for obvious reasons, thanks...1 scum down!

It doesn't really seem to me that not revealing your role is going to make a difference. You're already asking for protection so how is any of that going to change whether or not you reveal your role? Something is not right about this, especially considering it is day one... Are you a lyncher?

xvart.

[xvart]

I would be ok with a vezok lynch today. I still think SSBF looks scummier, but vezok certainly has a good enough case against him to be lynched today.

Quadz - is your read on SSBF solely based on the "defending people is a scumtell?" and his critique on q21's self vote? Is there anything else I'm missing?

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart:
It's that and some gut feeling. He and vezok look scummiest to me right now. SSBF's grasping of straws and dislike of defense of others comes across as scummier to me than vezok's short posts. Not by a huge stretch, but still more. But like I said, I'm willing to lynch either.

So why am I just someone you have "your eye on"? I've essentially done the exact same things (I never said defending someone else is scumtell, but I have been attacking you because of it) and I was also aggressive about q21's self vote.

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart:
It's that and some gut feeling. He and vezok look scummiest to me right now. SSBF's grasping of straws and dislike of defense of others comes across as scummier to me than vezok's short posts. Not by a huge stretch, but still more. But like I said, I'm willing to lynch either.

Why is vezok scummier than I? You are saying that SSBF is scummy because of the self vote comment, saying "defending someone is a scumtell", and gut. Then vezok is slightly less scummy because of short posts. Then you are only keeping an eye on me when I am guilty of everything SSBF is (minus the apparent gut)?

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart, SSBF: Your opinion is crucial and it's time for you to start defining it.
diddin, jay, chibi: We need your input.

Don't worry, I'm getting to it. I was trying to fish out some answers and I'm ready to vote for scum. Give me a couple minutes to type it up.

xvart.

[xvart]

My number one suspect right now is SSBF.

Based on two things:

1. q21's self vote; and,
   
2. Saying "defending someone is a scumtell."

After being questioned about this later he also added "gut."

I also have an eye on KageLord, xvart, and vezok, but nobody has really exhibited any huge scumtells that I've seen. SSBF seems to me the wisest D1 lynch, at this point.

He then throws around some people he's going to be watching that include some of the other popular bandwagons (vezok and KageLord) and me. Note that I am guilty of essentially exactly the same two things SSBF is (and probably even more so in my tenacity of each subject) and I only raise quadz's eyebrow? Either that or quadz's never before mentioned gut sends SSBF so much higher in the scum rankings over me. I'm guessing that quadz is only "keeping his eye on me" because he doesn't want to drag more attention to my case because it is spot on, but also doesn't want to completely ignore me.

Quadz is scum.

Vote: quadz08

@SSBF:

Tell me what you think of Quadz.

xvart.

[xvart]

quadz. Back and forth on him because of his posts. Ends up with a mildly good feeling. Why? Because he went out of his way to correct a mistake he made here:

Oso

- so you don't think that scum would want to correct a mistake he/she made?

xvart.

[xvart]

Only scum deal in absolutes

Yes, wise Obi Wan.

We have some more time to discuss. YAY. This game is alredy getting boring. Big wall-o-texts that must be read.
I am waiting for either getting at L-2 to claim or kagelord getting lynched.

What are you talking about? How about you get on a real case wagon like quadz08? The case on quadz is 100x times better than KageLord and even more obvious. If you want to contribute (in a meaningful way) help put some pressure on quadz. Like NOW.

Quadz08: Reading Quadz08 in ISO, #258 feels like AtE. He admitting to having a problem with his play style instead of actually making a decent response to Poirot's case to him with Poirot made in #252. I also find it odd that despite him attacking vezokpiraka, that he's currently going after me. He showed us more evidence that vezokpiraka was scum then I was, yet has a vote one me. I also wasn't a fan of his defense of diddin as it made him look hypocritical when calling me out for "defending is a scum tell.". The case against Quadz08 is decent as well. Willing to lynch him if vezokpiraka doesn't ge through ToDay.

What do you mean the case on quadz is good? Like, you think he is likely scum? Or could he be anti-town? Or could he just be town in a pickle?

Ok, I'll bite on that one. How do you explain 'gut feeling'? By definition it is not something based in logic. It based on past experience, overall impressions and perhaps even a subconscious awareness that something is wrong or right but you just haven't ferreted out the logical basis for it yet.

Who was this directed at? I'm going to go ahead and say that playing by gut is fine but it shouldn't be used as a tool to finagle lynch orders/preferences in such drastic ways.

Case Study by xvart #1:

Quadz lynch preference

1. SSBF
   -
   "defending people is a scum tell"
   ;
   attacking q21's self vote
   ; and,
   "gut"
   
   
2. vezok
   - short posts
   
3. xvart
   -
   "defending people is a scum tell"
   ;
   attacking q21's self vote

You can't possibly tell me that "gut" has that much sway in someone's mind about scum to boost the exact same case (not even taking into consideration SSBF's less aggressive approach and tenacity compared to me) over someone who posts are short?

Edit after preview: Again, I think a vezo lynch would provide just as much, if not more, information as my lynch. The vezo lynch has the added bonus of having a firm case against the lynchee other than "gut" and "information". If you're so adamant on getting that information, Oso, and you don't care whether vezo is scum or town, why not lynch vezo and use that in your case against me (and possibly Poirot as well) in the unlikely event that he flips town? Since you already got some attention in this wagon, imagine how much support you could get if the one I focused the most on was a townie.

How about we skip the informational lynches and just get to lynching the obvious scum? Regardless, lynching vezok will yield little in terms of information because everyone has a reason to get rid of vezok, regardless of his alignment.

I have a question for everyone:

at any point, up until the last page or so, did you ever think that SSBF was even a remote possibility for a lynch today?

xvart.

[xvart]

It should be obvious that I think quadz08 is pretty scummy, so yeah, I think he's likely scum.

So you're voting someone that could only be anti-town over someone that is likely scummy?

vezokpiraka: Anti-town at the very best, scummy at worst.

xvart.

[xvart]

There were a few posts between Poirot's and mine. Sorry for the confusion.

I figured as much; but I used your post as a springboard.

xvart.

[xvart]

Okay... I was going to wait until some more people weighed in on my question about the likelihood of a SSBF earlier in the game, but since there is a lull right now I'm going to go ahead and say with confidence that two scum are

quadz08

and

SSBF

. The case on quadz08 is solid while the case on SSBF is a little more circumstantial (which is why quadz08 is the day one lynch and SSBF is the day two lynch). I must admit that if quadz flips scum then the case on SSBF gets exponentially stronger whereas quadz is scum regardless of SSBF's alignment. I should also note that I don't usually speculate on scum teams/scum pairings on day one but this one is just staring down at me.

Quadz is scum. That much I think I've made clear. But his associations with SSBF are equally interesting, especially when you consider his last game where he was lynched on the last day and flipped scum. The post game conversations were especially intriguing considering the biggest critique of his play during that game was his distancing on day one. He was told to be more aggressive and not so buddy buddy to his scum pals. My hypothesis is quadz went after SSBF when it was most likely not going to lead to anything. It gave him town credit for "scumhunting" and set him up later if SSBF flipped scum. The only problem is his logic for voting SSBF is not sound compared to the other cases he's made; and he sure goes out of his way to say he's up for other lynches but thinks SSBF is scummier.

My number one suspect right now is SSBF.

First and foremost is this:

Defending people is a scum tell, period.

This is part of his ISO #9. To me, what this statement boils down to is that if a player has a reasonable point saying that a player is not scum (or may not be scum, or whatever), he shouldn't bring it up if that person is thought to be scummy. That makes no sense to me. "Gee, I have this opinion that, if brought up, may keep us from lynching a townie. But that's a no-no! Only scum defend people!" I just don't see how forcing out opinions is pro-town in any way.

There is also this (found in his ISO #8):

Absolutely hate this. I see absolutely no purpose of that self-vote, especially since we're already getting something to work on in this game.

SSBF made a pretty big deal about what was clearly a jokey vote. Like someone (diddin, maybe?) said earlier, it seems like he's grasping at straws. Yes, we were in the serious stage. But come on, it's a game, dangit! Let a man make a dumb joke. It meant nothing and did no harm to scumhunting. Not worth the attention it's gotten.

I also have an eye on KageLord, xvart, and vezok

, but nobody has really exhibited any huge scumtells that I've seen. SSBF seems to me the wisest D1 lynch, at this point.

I would be ok with a vezok lynch today.

I still think SSBF looks scummier

, but vezok certainly has a good enough case against him to be lynched today.

@xvart:
It's that and some gut feeling. He and vezok look scummiest to me right now.

SSBF's grasping of straws and dislike of defense of others comes across as scummier to me than vezok's short posts.

Not by a huge stretch, but still more.

But like I said, I'm willing to lynch either.

TBH,

I just don't find you as scummy as SSBF.

The gut feeling just isn't there. His reasoning seems more forced than yours, and it seems like he's trying harder to get someone lynched with those points, rather than just discussing them.

Bolded emphasis added by me.

---------------------------------------

SSBF on the other hand is now saying that quadz is likely scum (after all my posts) but is still voting for someone who he admits might just be anti-town. He is doing the same thing as quadz, only backwards. He's voting for someone that most people would typically agree needs to die at some point while leaving him the out of voting for actual scum if it comes to that. His interactions with quadz have been very limited up until I started questioning quadz and bringing him to center stage.

Heaven forbid I have a differing opinion on a player from someone else, amirite? That was a very foolish statement, methinks.

I never said it's wrong to have a differing opinion on a person. If you gave a simple town read with decent explanation on why and not continue to further defend the town read, then it isn't a problem. What is a problem is going and deliberately defending the person. It establish links between a person and makes you scummier, especially if the person flips scum.

Quadz08: Reading Quadz08 in ISO, #258 feels like AtE. He admitting to having a problem with his play style instead of actually making a decent response to Poirot's case to him with Poirot made in #252. I also find it odd that despite him attacking vezokpiraka, that he's currently going after me. He showed us more evidence that vezokpiraka was scum then I was, yet has a vote one me. I also wasn't a fan of his defense of diddin as it made him look hypocritical when calling me out for "defending is a scum tell.". The case against Quadz08 is decent as well.

Willing to lynch him if vezokpiraka doesn't ge through ToDay.

It should be obvious that I think quadz08 is pretty scummy, so yeah, I think he's likely scum.

Again, bolded emphasis added by me.

Again, quadz is certainly scum. SSBF is likely scum, and is more likely scum if quadz flips scum. I should also add that reading each in ISO will not give you the full picture; it is important to read these two players within the context of the entire thread, especially starting at post 238.

Let's get this taken care of.

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart I'm not sure I am understanding you as far as the first part of that post goes. You are saying that even though quadz is voting for SSBF now, you think the vote is weak and lacks substance so points to bussing?

I think he put the vote there and built his "case" when everyone was focusing on other things and more viable lynches. And yes, his case is totally weak and the logic does not grind with his lynch priority list.

xvart.

[xvart]

The only problem is his logic for voting SSBF is not sound compared to the other cases he's made; and he sure goes out of his way to say he's up for other lynches but thinks SSBF is scummier.

Can you show me the "other cases" quadz has made?

I was using the word "cases" fairly loosely. I should have said the other people he has called suspicious and the reasons he finds them suspicious.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm sorry but those two statements don't match up to me.

Nice catch. Checking context of both statements.

xvart.

[xvart]

@ q21 and xvart:

What's your opinion of vezo right now and the wagon on him?

I actually find vezok to be sort of a lightning rod (as he seems to be in every game I am) and I know one of these games he's actually going to be scum and it's going to bite me in the ass but I think in this case I am fairly confident that he is town based on my scum reads either voting for him or saying they will vote for him at deadline. He's a scapegoat for scum to push a town lynch because his play is so random, sometimes unhelpful, and often anti-town.

I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

An important part about presenting cases is to make sure you present it in such a way that you don't look scummy, right? Only scummy people worry about looking scummy.

xvart has raised some interesting points in regards to quadz though, today is a light day working for me so I plan looking on looking at what he said in those couple of posts about quadz pretty closely. I have a slight town read on quadz at the moment so I'm interested. One question at xvart though, part of that is based on a meta call in regards to quadz right? If the game you mentioned is finished, could you link it? I don't recall seeing a game link or a game name.

Quadz is scum isolated to this game and independent of any sort of meta. I only mentioned the other game because of the link to SSBF. The game is Newbie 965. I linked to the relevant post that I referenced early with quadz response right below that.

xvart.

[xvart]

Waiting for other scumtells to come out of him, and repeating that I think he is scum. There isn't much else to do, that I can see. I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

Let me get this straight. You think he is scum but you're still waiting for him to give MORE scumtells so you can get him lynched?
Repeating? How's that working for you?
Let's see... quadz is scum, quadz is scum, quadz is scum, quadz is scum... Ok, I did it 4 times. You can't avoid a lynch now...

Repeating a case over and over? Why don't you try to summarize your case? Did you read xvart's critique? And yet chose to safely ignore it in hopes that it be forgotten?

Don't worry, I noticed that he ignored my case and chose not to say anything about it. There really is nothing for scum to say when they are caught red handed as being scum. Don't worry either, because it won't be forgotten. In fact, I'm confident enough that unless something totally insane happens I will not be changing my vote the rest of the day. I almost think it's beneficial because I truly believe the scum are on the ropes right now, and the problem is going to be fishing out the third member (if there is one) from all the people that are hesitating to switch votes to such obvious scum.

In fact, to make it even more obvious and to generate discussion, I'm going to ask specifically:

@KageLord

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@SSBF

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@sotty7

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@Tasky

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@Oso

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of KageLord outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

@q21

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of KageLord outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

I'm going to go ahead and say that playing by gut is fine but it shouldn't be used as a tool to finagle lynch orders/preferences in such drastic ways.

Case Study by xvart #1:

Quadz lynch preference

1. SSBF
   -
   "defending people is a scum tell"
   ;
   attacking q21's self vote
   ; and,
   "gut"
   
   
2. vezok
   - short posts
   
3. xvart
   -
   "defending people is a scum tell"
   ;
   attacking q21's self vote

You can't possibly tell me that "gut" has that much sway in someone's mind about scum to boost the exact same case (not even taking into consideration SSBF's less aggressive approach and tenacity compared to me) over someone who posts are short?

xvart.

preview edit:

So you're voting someone that could only be anti-town over someone that is likely scummy?

No. vezokpiraka is always anti-town, regardless of alignments, that is why I said "anti-town at the very best". From this game, I highly doubt that vezokpiraka is just anti-town. This is scummy vezokpiraka at it's very worst.

What are the differences? Specifically? And in games where he is just simply anti-town town, how is he dealt with there?

SSBF: So you think it's likely that quadz and vezok are scumbuddies?

I would say so. His case on vezokpiraka was actually pretty good, but then over two things he found scummy with me, he switch his vote over me, adding little material to my case since then. Depending on the flip of vezokpiraka (If vezokpiraka gets lynched ToDay), I will look at quadz08 ISO for connections between him and vezokpiraka.

It still doesn't sound like you are too confident in vezok flipping scum. How about you look for those connections now? Or, even better, if vezok and quadz are likely scumbuddies, why don't you join the quadz bandwagon which has an actual case on him instead of just anti-town vs. scum rhetoric to support it?

xvart.

preview edit x2: looks like the quote colors are changing...

[xvart]

EBWOP (forgot to copy and paste from my other tab):

An important part about presenting cases is to make sure you present it in such a way that you don't look scummy, right? Only scummy people worry about looking scummy.

As to your first sentence: I agree, and I have done that to the best of my ability.
As to your second sentence: I disagree. If a townie looks scummy because of the way he's made a case on someone, then that distracts the town from looking for the real scum. This is what is happening now, methinks.

I was being sarcastic in the first sentence. Town people don't need to worry about looking scummy. They just need to worry about getting scum lynched and presenting cases that go to that end goal. Please explain the last sentence about what exactly you think is happening and to whom.

xvart.

[xvart]

Please point me to where I have ever stated that I think Humble is scum.

Please answer my question and participate in discussion that is not directly related to you.

xvart.

[xvart]

As for diddin - I think the context of his unvote and claim that "we" need to look at the wagon is he is trying to gain town points by not only getting off a probable town lynch considering he never himself went back to look at the wagon. That's the only justification I can think of considering L-2 isn't that scary. And the backpeddle is even more damning after he says he doesn't analyze wagons until after flips. My question is how do you analyze a wagon that you are abandoning if it never goes through to fruition? Now that the quadz wagon is gaining a little steam I'll go back and ISO diddin fully to see his connection to quadz.

First off, I will agree with you that there seems to be something off in quadz's lynch list logic as you presented it. I will have to go back and look at his reasoning to make sure it's not a misrep though. But even if it is actually all the reasoning he gave, that still only puts him at about 3rd or 4th in my list. Bad (or just absent) logic can come from town just as much as scum. Still, when it is related to their voting choices, perhaps it should be regarded as a bit suspicious. Because I don't believe that it is a strong scumtell, I still think the case (not just mine, but all that has been brought up so far) against vezok is stronger.

There is more to it. Read the build up to that point and you'll get the full picture.

There is, however, also the possibility that you and quadz are scum together. He's picked up on some things he can make a half-decent case on SSBF with (note, only

half

-decent. It has a ways to go before it reaches properly decent). He's scum and he wants to lynch SSBF-town, so he runs with what he has; he puts vezok at lynch priority 2 because its the easy choice.

Then, as the good player you are (and I get the impression from your posts that you are a good player) you point out the hole in his case despite being his scumbuddy. The hole being that the same reasoning applied to SSBF applies to you too. quadz realises he can't not suspect you at all, but you're his scumbuddy and he doesn't want you lynched. So he tacks and extra (and rather lame) reason onto his suspicion of SSBF and then tacks you onto his lynch priority at 3 - where he'll probably never have to act on it.

Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there, but maybe not. If he's suspecting two people different amounts for the same things it follows just as logically - of not moreso - that he's partnered with the one he suspects less than with the one he suspects more.

Now this is a good observation, and I encourage you to follow it. As I've said before when I preempted my suspicions of SSBF, as long as quadz gets the noose today we can debate his partners tomorrow.

xvart.

[xvart]

I am open to switching over to quadz but I am going to

request a vote count

to see where we are right now. There is a decent case on quadz but I'm not convinced he is as obv scum as some of you seem to be.

And maybe I haven't been clear enough or I have left the case spread over to such a large time frame, but I implore you to read it again. Why do you think quadz hasn't posted in this game? Why is he completely ignoring me (other than menial unrelated junk)? He's scum. He's busted. There's nothing he can do. He also realizes that I've probably pegged down his partners and he can't really say anything or do anything without incriminating them more. The case on quadz is so good I'm surprised I haven't convinced him to vote himself yet. I'm not positive what the vote count on diddin is at this point (I think with your vote he now has one vote), but quadz is at L-2. You should switch your vote to quadz so we can get a fake claim and then be done with this day. Diddin can be lynched D-2 or D-3.

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP: Sorry, in my haste I forgot to copy and paste this above my previous post.

The key point of your case is quadz lynch preferences, I'm not sure why you think this is as strong as you seem to be making it. For one, it is day one, it doesn't take much to push someone to the top of my suspect list over another. I still think the fact quadz voted SSBF and then both of them ignoring the vote afterward is stronger than your interpretation of his top three suspects.

It's not just that, as I have said. Look at the build up to that point; the conversation between quadz and I building up to that point. Obviously there is more to my case, and I feel I've been harping on this ever since the beginning of the game and it has only gotten better and better. The fact that nobody is looking or commenting on it until I practically forced people to is absolutely mind blowing.

xvart.

[xvart]

Please, explain why this is lame. I'll take a mislynch over a nolynch on Day 1 every time. At least we get some information this way. Even if I'm to be lynched, that's all right; at least I'll be giving town information to work with in subsequent Days.

So what information will you give the town

IF

you flip town?

xvart.

[xvart]

The people who were on my wagon, for one.

Who specifically? The people on your wagon would include seven people by the time it comes to completion. That doesn't really help the town narrow it down. If you think scum are likely pushing this wagon, that would mean that someone currently on it would be scum; so why are you not voting anyone on your wagon?

They know that I'm playing scummily, and so will be a pretty easy lynch, so voting for me is relatively safe.

It hasn't been an easy lynch, since it has taken almost a full three weeks to get it going. In fact, the wagon just got steam yesterday.

xvart.

[xvart]

Okay then. People not voting for quadz:
jayfl - flaked lyncher (Last post July 17th. I don't expect this vote to change)
sotty - open to switching
tasky - flaked? (Last post on July 14th. I don't expect this vote to change)
kagelord - has not expressed intention to switch to quadz
SSBF - likely (debatable) scum buddy
diddin - likely third scum buddy
quadz - obvscum

So if sotty switches votes that leaves one vote left. Whose it going to be? If the vezok counterwagon is going to produce there better be some solid casebuilding going on in the next 12 hours or so; or some damn good explanations of why a soft claimed power role is

SSBF's lack of participation recently only reinforces my scum read on him.

On that note, since SSBF doesn't look like he will be lynched today: UNVOTE: SSBF

Don't worry, he'll be lynched tomorrow or day three.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sotty - Don't worry; he's just trying to gain town points by bussing his partner before the day three rope comes with his name on it.

Oh yeah, I forgot that Tasky was V/LA. Thanks for the reminder. So his vote is definitely not going to move unless the moderator replaces him.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm happy voting quadz if we can lynch SSBF tomorrow.

Deal. You help me lynch your first buddy; then I'll help you lynch your second buddy.

xvart.

[xvart]

I don't like how he has made several short posts, with essentially zero content. (I know, I know, I can hear the shouts of "hypocrite!" already.) His vote on me was motivated purely by pressure (as he said, "Here get some pressure if it's needed. My vote is still on kagelord but xvart apparently wants some help.") and he provided no reasons other than that to vote for me. This post is also a pretty heavy contradiction, as he says that the game is getting boring because no one is asking questions of him, then says that another player needs to do his own work and not active lurk.

The thing I was driving at with SSBF earlier about how he has handled vezok in other games (or similar situations) was to see if he would suggest a vig kill or not because in nearly every single game that I've been in a similar situation that has been the decision nearly every single time. The fact that that hasn't even been discussed (I think) is intriguing; especially since SSBF said he's been in this spot before. Granted, we don't know if there is a vig or not; but if someone announced there was a vig right now and said they would kill vezok tonight, how would that change things?

xvart.

[xvart]

Well, a situation with a community agreement on someone being VI or anti-town on D1. I was trying to include other instances outside of ongoing games which was why I made the generalization of "similar situations".

xvart.

[xvart]

Granted, we don't know if there is a vig or not; but if someone announced there was a vig right now and said they would kill vezok tonight, how would that change things?

?

xvart.

[xvart]

Ugh. Failed quote tag. That question was by me.

xvart.

[xvart]

How it would change our lynch choice for today? I don't think it really would; I and vezok are pretty clearly suspects 1 and 2 (in whatever order you wish).

How would it change your vote?

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart: You seem to be absolutely certain that quadz08 is scum regardless of circumstances. What if quadz08 flips town? What will you say?

I'll eat my hat.

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart: Going deeper into "what if quadz08 flips town scenario":

We can deal with that tomorrow in the unlikely event that the sun rises in the west. In the meantime, I'll not have you try and undermine my credibility or derail this wagon by making me look like I'm second guessing myself. The only thing I do know is that if quadz flips town I will certainly be alive tomorrow.

xvart.

[xvart]

Hmmm... You voted for someone you think is town?

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart: quadz08 has flipped town. Please answer these questions:

1. What would that say about me and diddin, since we're considered by you quadz08's scum partners?
2. Who would be your third lynch candidate?
3. Would you analyze the bandwagon that you've created for scums?

1. As I said all along, your scumminess was fairly circumstantial by virtue of quadz being scum. Since he's not, you're not as high on my priority list. I'm not giving you a pass and I need to reread D1 again. Diddin, on the otherhand, was scummy independent of quadz; so I think that is the avenue I'm going to pursue.
2. I don't know. Why do you ask?
3. Yes; I certainly will.

And xvart, it was either you or Poirot who said that quadz was obvscum

It was me.

We who survive need to be organized but not pounce on a player like quadz, but pounce on a player who's scumminess can't be just bad gameplay but is actually from bona fide scum tells.

So who do you suggest pouncing on?

xvart.

[xvart]

Considering that having at least three anti-town players is very likely, I wanted to know if you had a third suspect or not. It's not something I would go all over you for, thought.

Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm going to stay away from projecting too far down the line now as it obviously didn't help me out yesterday.

Effectively, my scum list is nilch. I have to read more and discard gut feelings. And sleep before doing any of that.

So what did you do during the night phase? You came into the game, hammered someone you thought was town, and then didn't read the game in the three days it was closed?

diddin's intellectually suspicious. I'm not talking about the gut suspicion I had with Poirot or jay. Diddin's cooking up stuff. I should vote for him now that my triple posting is not in danger of being one of my annoying quadruples, which someone once said they wished I could be policy lynched for in a now completed game. I hope nobody despises my triple posts> I can stop if asked.

VOTE: diddin

Explain. How is he intellectually suspicious? What does intellectually suspicious mean?

I can't expect the information that it reveals. I can only see what happens in the aftermath, but those who were on the wagon have to be watched, including me. The thing I find now is diddin telling us that he's going to reread Humble. What could that achieve for diddin's intentions?

So what has now happened in the aftermath? It's been a couple days now; people have started expressing suspicions so you should have some preliminary observations, especially considering your gameplan.

The Humble reread is coming, I have Band Camp today and WILL do it this evening. Trust me on this one. The reason I'm rereading Humble is my only read on him in the past was town, but that read wasn't a very strong one. I like to have better reads D2 than D1.

While you're at it, how about your analysis of the quadz wagon?

VOTE: diddin

I wouldn't be against competing bandwagons on diddin and vezok. Diddin and tazaro would be better but this will do for now.

xvart.

[xvart]

It's interesting that diddin went from saying that Friend may be panicking scum and therefore he'll reread Poirot (who replaced Friend) to saying that he wanted to RECONFIRM his town read on Poirot after he got two votes, a reread which was accomplished quickly without finding one thing that was "blatantly scummy".

It's also the easiest read to make that most people will agree with. I requires little effort, yields a result that most everyone will probably agree on, and gives a slight illusion of "helping the town."

Double post: He's moody and easily offended; hence the "form of OMGUS." And his weakness(es) in playing makes him an easy target.

I've played several games with vezok and I don't recall him ever being offended (at least publicly). Can you show me where he has appeared offended in this game?

Something I don't think anyone's mentioned yet is possible redirection role (believe it's commonly called 'busdriver' here but that gets me confused with 'bussing').

A busdriver or redirector would stil yield a kill, just not the intended target; in which point if there was a bulletproof it would yield no kill; so the busdriver speculation is irrelevant.

Can you at least give us some idea of what you were expecting to happen here? Did you come to the idea of an information lynch (which on first read I don't think you mentioned) based on past performance of such a play, or simply because it seemed like a good idea?

This reads fine as town that has misplayed and is trying to get on with the game. I could also, however, read the vibes as being scum that's trying to deflect attention. Leaning the latter. Would like an explanation. VOTE: Tazaro until I see it.

I agree. When someone does an information lynch, and claims it as such, there is usually an expected outcome (i.e. we'll learn this about this person or this about this person). When the person that said it was an information lynch but can't explain any information about it just makes it look like Tazaro is saying he knows quadz will flip town, but that's okay because it's informational. With no supplemental information after the fact, it looks like he is just trying to get a lynch on a townie while not supporting it.

xvart.

[xvart]

Were the neighbors able to talk pre-game?

Sotty? Can you confirm or deny anything in diddin's claim?

Diddin - how come you haven't mentioned sotty all day until now?

xvart.

[xvart]

I get the impression that it was pretty much agreed upon that someone in the neighborhood was scum. Is that correct?

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry, I meant this:

The beginning of the night was a few posts about how that trust might be built. Not many ideas other than if one of us is flipped or NKed and that person turns out town, that the other two out their their status and go at each other based on the assumption that there is one scum in the group.

Did it seem like people were in agreement? Or anyone just following along with the suggestion?

xvart.

[xvart]

Yes, I wouldn't automatically assume there was a scum in the group either; I just wanted to know if you could parse any reads from the way people participated in that particular part of the discussion.

xvart.

[xvart]

If I were scum, what benefit would I have from claiming a provable power role? I may very well be the only protective role in the game. I would be safer claiming VT if I were scum since the flip of another protective role could possibly lead to my lynching.

Because it is not provable. You were asked to claim, you claimed something that has ability that is provable, but not that the alignment is provable. Jailkeeper is a typical scum claim for a scum roleblocker because the outcome is essentially the same. Just because it is a common scum claim does not mean you are not a Jailkeeper, though; but neither does it clear you by any sense of the word.

OR the mod put three townies as neighbors to have them doubt each other and lessen the power of giving the town a direct masonary. Basically, it comes down to out guessing the mod and I don't want it all to come down to that.

I think it would be best to just assess each player's scumminess level independent of the neighborhood. It could just be chasing shadows; but if anything relevant comes up in the neighborhood it should not be withheld.

Considering I doubt there are two protective roles in a mini normal, another protective role flips, and I'm in trouble. Why would I take that risk?

This sounds a lot like doctor fishing. There was something else someone said (I think it was you) earlier that I will have to go out and find along the same lines.

@Humble/Ara - I was going to say something along the lines of what Humble did, essentially that it seems you did a lot of digging and case explaining for someone who only posted three or four times. I think Ara is trying to deflect the attention while still keeping some suspicion to setup a lynch another day. I still think he is a Lyncher.

First of all, I don't think it was prudent to claim when you did vezok.

People who don't want me to claim results: [0/3]

This

wasn't part of the deal. It was supposed to be at least 3 people agreeing regardless of whether it just three.

Second of all, Tazaro seems awfully intent on getting vezok's results, jumping at the opportunity to get some results and then being worried that vezok might not reveal.

You should have tried to fish out if Oso had anything happen to him last night first.

So KageLord did something, and diddin claimed to do something. These two can easily be theorized as planning this in their conversing with each other at night... again, KageLord and diddin, that's my tag team of scumminess.

Conspiracy theory much?

KageLord - do not claim now. I don't see the need and this mass claim is starting to irritate me. I do think if you can confirm or deny that whatever you did was successful or not would be beneficial, i.e. do you know if you were roleblocked?

Tazaro is increasing in scumminess as he spouts of his conspiracy theories and his response to getting more information from the claimed power roles.

xvart.

[xvart]

edit: HOW is... I wont triple post again.

This will actually mean something to me when it becomes true as opposed to the other times you said it. Most of the times, we don't need edit after edit changing "him" to "her" or "insert this word here" type stuff as we can usually figure out what you were intending to say (at least I can. Maybe I shouldn't speak for everyone else). Seriously, players will take you a lot more seriously if you think about your posts before posting. The only thing I can picture when I think of the person sitting behind your computer is a 13-year old kid who hasn't taken his ADD meds frantically pounding away at his keyboard.

I'm not suspicious of Aranneus at all. Who is he a mafia suspect? He seems to like to play is all ,and scumhunt, too, and that strikes me as a town read.

This is the most bizarre read yet. And what prompted this? Was it something I said?

Diddin - how come you never mentioned anything about sotty prior to your claim and results?

vezok is most likely telling the truth about being a watcher; unless KageLord and him are both scum and this is an elaborate plot, which I doubt.
diddin is most likely telling the truth about the portion of his ability to roleblock, but this is unconfirmed at this time since his target (sotty) was unable to say anything either way about being roleblocked.

I going to admit to confirmation bias. But I think suspicion of Aranneus is odd, xvart? I would think he's a diligent townie because I seem him browsing a lot?

Did I say I was suspicious of him? He is most likely not scum, but a third party Lyncher who is not going to win because his target is Humble and Humble is not getting lynched. Are you intentionally trying to drum up scandal?

Sotty is either the scum who submitted the kill or the person that scum diddin blocked. I find it hard to believe that he would be the kill choice for mafia last night. Sotty being the kill choice just does make any sense to me from a scum POV. I'm thinking that diddin is lying, and if diddin flips scum then I think Tazaro is trying to fish out the actual protective role. I'm not going to go full speed ahead with connections at this point, but I do not believe diddin is a town Jailkeeper. I think the best bet when determining who to lynch is to not only consider the roles, but also who has been the scummiest.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry everyone. Have been super busy with doctor's appointments and work. I'll read through the contributions and have something tonight or tomorrow. Please for the love of god do not lynch anyone in the next 12 hours.

I'll also need some V/LA coming up as I am having surgery a week from today.

V/LA: 7/10 - 7/13

(variable depending on how doped up I get on painkillers).

xvart.

[xvart]

I repeat, there are too many PRs, in my opinion, in this game if you are not scum.

The problem with this line of thinking is that even IF all the claimed PRs are actually town and telling the truth, this doesn't mean that sotty is scum because any of the other non-claimed players could have done a kill on him.

If we did do that, well all I can say is that a complicated gambit like that is going to come unraveled before endgame and would surely bite us in the ass. Town gets confused and scum do use that but that is stretching it. One person might fall for it but not a whole thread.

Yes, everyone: let's work on the non-complicated scenarios, first. You know, the ones that are more likely to actually be the case?

Speaking of keeping it simple; I think we need to further scrutinize diddin's claim. The way I see it can go one of two ways:
1. diddin is town and he did block the kill (or killer);
2. diddin is scum roleblocker and there is another protective role that protected a different target.

I think it's probably safe to assume in a mini normal that there would not be a jailkeeper and another protection role of the same alignment. After yesterday I told myself that I wasn't going to hypothesize about connections and scumteams, but I can't shake this feeling. With Tazaro becoming scummier and scummier and all his doctor fishing and role fishing he knows there is another protective role which blocked the kill and he is trying to subtly get this information. I want to think about this some more and get some feedback because I don't want to jump all over this diddin/Tazaro scum team connection. Diddin himself even sets it up to try and get a protective role to counter claim him, which would still be in benefit to the scumteam.

The other thing that troubles me about Diddin's claim (which only supports what I just said) is the fact that he didn't mention anything about Sotty until he was L-1 claiming. He even says the reason he picked Sotty was because he thought he was town

OR

because he is good scum (or something along those lines). I simply am having trouble seeing how under either circumstance, with no night kill last night, that diddin would not suspect that he might have prevented the NK by caging the killer. Nothing at all? No subtle questions, no minor suspicions?

Diddin - how is Sotty dangerous as scum?

Double post: By the way, claim KageLord, you've been outed. And it's interesting you targetted diddin's neighbor Oso.

Why should he claim? His target didn't die.

That makes sense. I'd prefer to pressure KageLord with votes to force a claim (we don't know if his information is anti-town as he says, and it's probably not going to make much of a negative impact in comparison to the value of the information anyway), I'd prefer for that to happen rather than lynch Sotty.

Unless he has an information role that has the ability to gather significant information. His target didn't die; the claimed JK did not target his target, so unless he is a scum RBer he is fine keeping that information to himself. You are hardcore rolefishing.

I agree that Tazaro is likely scum, but I think we should lynch the scum RBer first. So my vote on diddin stands.

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart, I can vote for diddin too, but Oso is sticking out to me also.

How do you feel about his JK claim? Does it mesh with Oso? What I mean is if diddin is lying about being JK how does that affect your thoughts on Oso? Are they mutually exclusive whereas only one can be true?

Also, I forgot to respond to the people who responded to my question about the odds of Sotty being the NK target. I'll review those comments later.

xvart.

[xvart]

I think it's possible that KageLord roleblocked Oso's attempt at nighkilling and diddin did whatever he did or didn't do. diddin's real role is not certain, but this would mean that Poirot is the innocent neighbor who had TWO scum neighbors Oso and diddin.

So if diddin is town JK there would be two town roleblocking roles? Does this seem plausible/likely?

Double post: diddin could be a mafia goon who did not submit the nightkill and is pretending to be a town jailkeeper and made up his action of targetting Sotty.

Then that would mean that scumdiddin was hoping that Sotty was not a PR that moved at night (because his results would prove that diddin was lying)

OR

Sotty is a scum partner.

xvart.

[xvart]

Trying to get caught up in all my games so I'll try and post more before night comes around but I wanted to answer Humble.

1. I was more wondering if he knew if his action occurred or not or if there was some sort of shenanigans that occurred.

xvart.

[xvart]

And for the love of god, when people say chill out on the voting, CHILL OUT ON THE VOTING. Some closing thoughts in case I die overnight. I'm fairly certain that Tazaro is scum, but it would be better to lynch a scum PR (diddin). Of course, if scum, diddin could be claiming the RB one of his partners did, but that is increasingly risky, especially with a potential watcher on the prowl. If diddin dies and flips goon, a long hard look should be taken at sotty since claiming him as a RB is really risky unless sotty is a scumbuddy or one of diddin's pals RB sotty.

xvart.

[xvart]

Wait. Vezok, do not answer until after diddin answers. Diddin - who did you JK and why?

xvart.

[xvart]

Vezok - claim your target, how many people targeted that person, and reasoning why you picked that person. You don't have to claim the names of the people yet.

xvart.

[xvart]

Alrighty; the time has come. I'm having reconstructive surgery on my shoulder tomorrow morning. I will more than likely not be able to post at all tomorrow, and depending on the pain meds and how the surgery goes I might not be able to make a quality post for a couple days after.

V/LA: August 10 - August 13

Noted, hope it all goes well.

I'll try and get a final post in tonight but I wanted to get this done now just in case.

xvart.

[xvart]

@diddin, 717 - throwing a lot of suspicion around? so you think humble might be scum? yet you later you suggest that the other person who visited humble (besides KL) is scum? why would scum visit scum? you are going pr fishing hardcore.

@ssbf, 718 - i wanted diddin to answer first because i have been susicious of his claim. i thought that would be obvious by now. i didnt want diddin modifying his claim around vezok.

@diddin, 726 - again, role fishing. apparently there were two visitors to humble last night. i ask again, why is the second auto scum? the only suggestion so far has been a scum rb'er. why would scum rb'er go for humble instead of a watcher?

i know why; because the scum rb'er couldn't go for vezok because that would be scummy and you couldn;t afford to look scummy since you are already outted.

@727, q21 - agreed about ssbf and knowing quadz flip. although diddin is much scummier.

how about we stop relying on pr's to scumhunt and just scumhunt? diddin is scum city. he should have been lynched yesterday.

vote: diddin

won't be posting much more for a while. this little post zapped all my energy but i had to come in before the town imploded. typing one handed sucks.

xvart.

[xvart]

@oso, 741 - i wasn't singling anyone out about following pr's. however, diddin is not playing like a town pr (see my first point in my last post). thinking again, if diddin is scum rb'er and there is another protective town pr then scum has to be careful on their kills because if they kill the possible protective role them they bury one of their own and scumdiddin can't do a scummy "JK" or else he goes down. basically, even if scum, he has to play like town and only target either his buddies or someone town and hope to grab the possible unknown town pr. with this mind:

unvote

(and thank you for the well wishes; it went well but i am sore as can be and fall in and out of sleep a lot)

I'm going to go ahead and say that these three are scum: diddin, ssbf, sotty, assuming that ara is lyncher. i am confident on any of their lynches. however, we do need to sort out the ara business, are we in lylo? i don't have the mental function now to do the projections and math.

if diddin flips scum it implicates sotty as partner and that leaves ssbf as the third by town hunting everyone else. the only wildcard is ara, which might screw my reads up.

i'm also going to go ahead and suggest vezok watch whomever the other visitor was tonight since scum is probably looking for that person.

xvart.

[xvart]

@sotty, 748 - i messed up. i had four oruginaly but had ssbf listed twice, and couldn't figure out who the fourth was supposed to be (forgot about q21 even being in the game). i meant there were four probables (got confused by my notes) by role reveals and town hunting: you, diddin, ssbf, and q21. and humble, these aren't connections to each other but more of process of elimination (and lol at the part about me knowing i can be wrong),

xvart.

[xvart]

Yes, typing is challenging with only one hand and I.m not getting thoughts clear. I'll have something more clear and substantial (and less confusing) when it's time for me to claim.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sotty is scum, but I don't agree with Oso's reasoning.

Consider this post:

Okay this is what I was looking for, you seem to trust him, if only a little bit so I am willing to swallow that. With his claim and no counter, it makes the most sense to me that he protected me from a kill and so is probably telling the truth.

This doesn't sound like a town roleblocker response with her inside information, especially if there are

two

supposed town roleblockers. Why would a town roleblocker trust the results of another town roleblocker?

You lynch me and I flip town that doesn't tell you a thing about diddin's role at all. You don't seem to think I am scum, so why are you suddenly embracing the POE?

Furthermore, this post makes Sotty obvscum. Sotty's flip would tell us

everything

about diddin's role.

Unvote
Vote: Sotty7

xvart.

[xvart]

That's exactly my point though, your (town) flip would tell us that diddin was scum no questions asked since it is highly highly unlikely that there would be two town aligned roleblocking roles. And if you flip scum, it makes diddin's claim more likely to be true. If you both are roleblockers like you both claim to be, you are not on the same side. Knowing what you knew at the time, there is no way someone aligned with town would say that these circumstances would yield no information about the other's alignment.

xvart.

[xvart]

You had me pretty much convinced to vote sotty after that post, only one thing about a possible PR that xvart could have made me think diddin was scum, but then I looked at the whole game and decided it wasn't likely based on xvart's lack of conviction in one of his cases.

Can you explain this more? Which case of mine are you referring to?

re: vezok - I;m more skeptical of vezok flipping town alignment due to there also being a tracker. I think Oso is probable town based on his presentation. Controlling who vezok watches will help us tremendously regardless.

Although his claim is more believable; I am not on the diddin is 100% town train yet. I still think it is possible that diddin could be scum that claimed sotty's rb targets when he was put under pressure.

I don't think it is necessary for me to claim right now, and i think if i die any information I have will be obvious. however, it might be helpful. i will claim if deemed necessary.

xvart.

[xvart]

Vote: diddin

How confident, percentage wise, are you that diddin is scum? Like if we decided to lynch diddin instead of you based on what you said are you so sure that he will flip scum?

To speculate, I think it was me. diddin tried to kill me and when it failed claimed scum JK because he was being run up.

Why did he try and kill you? If he was blocked why do you assume that he tried to kill you? If he was the killer then why did he make up a fake result when he knew that he was roleblocked. Someone would get him eventually during claim time.

Also, why did you choose to block diddin N1?

If Sotty flips scum and vezo flips town, I'll be heavily suspicious of SSBF.

When do you propose that vezok is going to flip?

Humble

- I'll get to your points in 778 after I get an answer from three people.

SSBF, diddin, and vezok

- if you had to guess and based on what you know, what do you think my night action is? (and yes, there is a point to this question and I will explain fully; I'm not trying to create a claim based on what people think)

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP:

I'm ok with the sotty lynch as soon as possible.

Why are you just "okay" with sotty's lynch? If you were the role you claim to be I would think that you of all people would be rip roaring and ready to lynch without haste. Is there any reason you are hesitant?

xvart.

[xvart]

What I suspected when I read you had visited me was that you were a doctor (see my self-centered attitude? That's why I didn't doubt Vezok either, I'm a shame to my name). If you were a doctor, that meant diddin was scum RB and that you had been going at him during a big part of this game for that reason. Later, I did some more research and came across the fact that you had unvoted diddin, which made no sense if you had that role.

I am, in fact, the town doctor. I protected Humble both nights. I chose to protect Humble because after my day one lynch mob rallying I knew I wouldn't be targetted, and Humble was the most thoughtful player during day one. I actually considered protecting vezok because of his soft claim on day one. After quadz flipped town I was floored and defeated and was reading way too much into how everyone was acting towards me. I actually got it in my head that maybe Humble was scum that was subtly stroking my ego, especially with post 393 (the PS) being a little too prophetic after the fact. In my protection pm to the mod I said as much, but also said that if I didn't protect Humble and he died I would kill myself, and Humble's comment in 393 was actually just sound town musings. This is why I was so adamant about diddin not being the cause of the no kill night one.

I protected Humble on night two, as well. I strongly considered protecting KageLord due to his soft claim, but I WIFOM'ed myself to death on whether or not the scum would roleblock KageLord and kill an active and thoughtful town. Since vezok had his softclaim day one and survived I figured that KageLord would probably also not be the target and since Watcher's typically do not have the ability to watch themselves I thought that diddin would block KageLord and then pretend to JK someone else, maybe even a partner that would confirm his results.

The reason I unvoted was because of what I said in post 746: if I was the reason that there was no night one kill then the scum know there was a doctor. They also knew that as soon as I flipped that diddin would be outted as scum, so they would have to be careful about the doctor showing up dead. I wasn't really concerned about diddin anymore because I was convinced beyond a doubt that he was not town JK and if I died, that would still become obvious; or it would become obvious when I claimed, so it served no purpose to pursue that train of thought. I also tried to make it look like my suspicion of diddin was waxing (although I knew that was close to impossible) but maybe give me some more credit with scum by saying his claim is more likely to be of town once Oso/Sotty claimed.

You're suggesting diddin and sotty are scum together? What about the no kill?

I think it is a strong possibility given that I am the doctor and there would never be two scum roleblockers possible. What I think is that when diddin got a lot of pressure he claimed sotty's fake claim to try and buy him some time (which worked, as he wasn't lynched). However, he possibly claimed he JK sotty for a couple of reasons: it was unprovable that sotty was the killer, and if we did lynch sotty and sotty flipped scum, it gave him town credit. Sotty is still the best lynch today, and if sotty flips scum RB'er I would suggest to the tracker to follow diddin. If I am correct, diddin will either not go anywhere (if he is a goon) or he will be forced to be the killer and will be tracked to the person who winds up dead (or tracked to the person I protected and stays alive). Both sotty and diddin's claims do not work out together, and it appears to me to be fake scum claims coming unraveled and too interconnected.

The reason I wanted to get answers to the questions I asked to sotty, diddin, and vezok is because I wanted to know if the scum already had the feeling that I was doctor, and I believe that two of those three are scum, if not all three, so withholding my information would serve no purpose. I also wanted to see their answers to have the follow up questions that Humble already asked.

As long as we're on the subject, why didn't you volunteer that information? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out your role (based on your actions).

I was trying to extract as much information as possible from the other claimed protective roles and the others I thought were scum. I actually thought you had/would read between the lines but I was being intentionally vague in some of my conviction or backed off in some areas for self preservation when I figured out my important information would most likely not die with me.

If you read me in ISO I think you'll believe my claim. Humble was the first to suggest that I might be the town doctor, so if you don't want to ISO me just read these three quotes with the consideration of me being the town doctor:

Considering I doubt there are two protective roles in a mini normal, another protective role flips, and I'm in trouble. Why would I take that risk?

This sounds a lot like doctor fishing. There was something else someone said (I think it was you) earlier that I will have to go out and find along the same lines.

Sotty is either the scum who submitted the kill or the person that scum diddin blocked. I find it hard to believe that he would be the kill choice for mafia last night.

Sotty being the kill choice just does make any sense to me from a scum POV.

I'm thinking that diddin is lying, and if diddin flips scum then I think Tazaro is trying to fish out the actual protective role.

Speaking of keeping it simple; I think we need to further scrutinize diddin's claim. The way I see it can go one of two ways:
1. diddin is town and he did block the kill (or killer);
2. diddin is scum roleblocker

and there is another protective role that protected a different target.

----------

@diddin:

Now hold on just a second. You claim to be town jailkeeper and say xvart you think xvart is town doctor? How come?

Especially considering diddin's post 533 when he said:

Considering I doubt there are two protective roles in a mini normal, another protective role flips, and I'm in trouble. Why would I take that risk?

----------

I might be getting ahead of myself (again) in the following, but wanted to go ahead and throw this out there:
The only thing that is troubling me is the amount of power roles on the town side, even if diddin is scum. Having a cop/tracker/doctor/watcher is definitely overpowered for the town. I even think in a 12 person game that cop/tracker or watcher/doctor is overpowered unless there is a counter agent on the scum side. I'm leaning towards vezok being a scum watcher. With a cop/doctor, tracker moving around, it is likely that a watcher was placed on the scum side to help them identify power roles to help eliminate them. Tracker is typically harder to use effectively because you only have to identify someone that would draw a town power role whereas a tracker you have to identify an actual PR, which is more difficult. Even if the watcher is scum, adding a JK to the town side makes it more unbalanced in the town's favor.

Preliminary thoughts make me think that vezok didn't target humble on night one because humble was supposed to die (but was saved due to my protection). It is also possible that he targeted Humble night two since scumvezok would know that Humble was saved and might be a likely save again (or even an investigation, which also occurred).

----------

My full read of the game has changed now that Oso has claimed tracker and his subsequent presentation and townie behavior. Therefore, we have (colored folks are those that I believe evidence suggests to be more than likely to be that alignment; black player names are unknown alignments or do not have enough substantial evidence at this time to go to be aligned either way in my opinion):

Oso

, tracker - likely town, due to tracker results and presentation (see case above)

Humble Poirot

- likely town, if saved by doctor N1. Also, the possible lyncher of Aranneas with Humble as a target also indicates town

q21

- unknown

Aranneas

- likely lyncher due to jay's early post and Aranneas follow up, and lack of participation recently

xvart

, town doctor

diddin

, claimed unconfirmed JK - night action failed, likely scum goon, see case above

vezokpiraka

, confirmed watcher, alignment unconfirmed, possible scum watcher due to setup speculation and balance (see case above)

Sotty7

, claimed roleblocker, likely scum due to responses to claims and behavior

Super Smash Bros. Fan

- unknown

quadz08

, Vanilla Townie, was lynched Day 1.

Tazaro

, Vanilla Townie, was lynched Day 2.

KageLord

, Town Cop, was killed Night 2.

Obviously these reads shouldn't be taken as the bible, but this is my line of thought right now.

xvart.

[xvart]

At this point, we both agree that Sotty is scum (based on our own conjectures about how the roles are interacting)?

Yes. And, I think Sotty's flip will reveal a lot for subsequent days.

We both agree that vezo is watcher but that he might be a scum watcher?

Yes. Vezok has confirmed his watcher ability. Just like I find the likelihood of there being a doctor/jailkeeper on the same team in a 12 person game I do not think that a watcher/tracker would also be on the same team in a 12 person game. Since I have a much, much stronger town read on you that leaves vezok as scum watcher (and considering the watcher/tracker effectiveness in terms of balance I suggested in my last post and the WIFOM speculation that vezok was trying to catch the doctor by targeting Humble). Also, given that Vezok would get his results after night communication is closed he is pretty much forced to answer truthfully since the scum team wouldn't be able to effectively speculate and hypothesize phony results.

I think diddin is town (Pre-Doc RC on your part) but you think he is scum based on your role and how you think all these roles are interacting?

Yes. I think once sotty flips we will have a better idea of what the scum team consists of and can then further speculate on which sides roles might fall on. But, at this point, I'm thinking the setup is likely

tracker/doctor/cop/VTs

vs

watcher/roleblocker/goon

, and that sounds moderately balanced from what we know so far. Who knows, maybe Sotty is fake claiming roleblocker and will flip goon or godfather or something. Then, diddin is obvscum RB partner. They could be trying to fake claim the other one out to score town cred when the other flips.

We both seem to agree that Poirot is town and that we also seem to trust each other a bit?

Yes. I trust my Humble read more than my read on you, and I haven't completely ruled you out as scum and vezok town, but I think that is not very likely due to behavior, general play, etc.

------------

I believe others have said this before, but anything can happen in this set-up. From the claimed roles, it looks like we are in a swingy set-up with lots of power roles. From this and xvart's overall town play, I wouldn't be surprised if xvart himself was the doctor like he claims to be.

I really don't like how SSBF is latched on to this idea that

anything

can happen in this game based on the roles that have been revealed. There is a difference in a swingy game and a game where anything can occur. Based on the roles, I wouldn't even consider it swingy, but the possibility of one faction being overpowered is a possibility. Swingy games imply that one faction could have a strong lead and then the next day be totally behind, and I don't see that as the case in this game. Either the town is way overpowered or some of our claimed PRs are lying about alignment.

And if xvart is the doctor, diddin being the town jailkeeper would rely on sotty7's flip even more. If sotty7 is town, then diddin is likely a scum jailkeeper. If sotty7 is scum, then diddin is probably the town jailkeeper. In the former case, diddin should be lynched tomorrow. If the latter, then let him live..

It's that simple? It doesn't matter if sotty flips a scum PR? Only alignment determines the other alignment?

SSBF is another one of my hesitations because he has been fairly consistently scummy, especially with his interactions with probable scum.

------------

Something intrigues me though. If diddin and sotty are scum together... Then who did they block? Did they block a partner for wifom? (that sounds absurd but hey, I'm out of ideas).

That's the million dollar question. Since Sotty was the last person to claim (outside of me but it seems obvious that I was likely doctor by the general consensus) Sotty could have blocked someone unclaimed and assumed that that person is VT and wouldn't be able to support or deny an action occurred on him. I think since so many PRs have claimed (and that I would be surprised if any additional PRs were in the game, I think it would be safe to have all the unclaimed claim, just in the off chance there is some additional night information. Does anyone disagree?

Also, I'm sure it has happened before but I have never seen a town roleblocker. This makes me wonder that Sotty couldn't claim JK as a fake claim because diddin had already claimed that and then he would get discovered since he didn't counterclaim.

We must remember we don't know the sanity of the cop when we try to think what's balanced.

This is a good point.

I do not intend this to be of any value during the game but if, when the game ends, his alignment is mafia, it will be a funny example of a freudian slip. Have you guys seen many town players claim "I'm town [Role]"?

I actually thought of this at the time, but dismissed it because I once in a game once where someone said "my claim is..." and pushed him because I didn't think that anyone with that actual role would say "my claim is..." as opposed to "I am...". I can't remember for sure but I think that person flipped town.

xvart.

[xvart]

If we decide to do it, we should definitely do it today as to help use the scum PRs to our advantage. Like I said, I think you should track diddin tonight no matter what happens as that will give us all the information we need on him.

xvart.

[xvart]

The town is way overpowered.

Are we? What if the mafia have a Godfather? I do not think it is prudent to assume that the town is overpowered because that would mean you trust all the claims so far. We know for a fact that Sotty is scum. Once she flips, we'll know more and have a better idea if (and who) is lying, and we'll have another round of PR night claims to see what people claimed to do to cross against motives and actual outcomes.

I'm not completely willing to rule out the possibility of them being scum together as I do think xvart's scenario is a possible one. However, I do feel that out of those two claims, that they're more likely to be part of different alignments. It is more likely that Sotty7 is scum then diddin based off of what happened.

Do you agree that tracking diddin tonight will yield us important information about his alignment? What do you think will happen if we track diddin?

xvart.

[xvart]

Just posting to avoid prod. I have nothing to say until sotty is lynched.

How do you feel about being tracked tonight?

xvart.

[xvart]

Um... What's a ninja godfather?

xvart.

[xvart]

Go with Humble's Plan. Since the results coming through on Oso depend on me protecting Oso does the scum want to do a little WIFOM tango during the night on whether or not I actually will or will I try and save Humble or q21? I think those are the two that are most vulnerable tonight with the state of the game and the night plans.

Well damn. I had this whole thing planned out but I guess I should forget it now. This game has a crippling set up, quite annoying.

I would still like to hear it post game.

xvart.

[xvart]

I was planning on doing something else with my Jailkeep, but I will go with the plan or me and Oso will work out something in neigbour chat.

No. Stay on target. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMDV3eISLPs#t=0m20s

xvart.

[xvart]

Welcome, charter.

The diddin kill is intriguing. I have a thought, but I'll wait to propose it until after we get results from everyone. Before anyone claims, I think it would be best to hear from Vezok first, if that is okay with everyone else.

xvart.

[xvart]

Vote xvart

Maybe there's a jailkeeper

and

a doctor... but probably not.

Let's not be too hasty okay?

@xvart: You knew the plan was for you to get watched by vezok and that Oso would be jailkept by the now confirmed diddin. What information were you expecting?

I was expecting diddin to not go anywhere, since I didn't think there was a chance in hell that he was actually a Jailkeeper. The fact that the scum eliminated him and confirmed him as Jailkeeper is extremely perplexing.

What's that thought you were witholding?

The thoughts I was withholding was that I think Oso might be the likely scum, and possibly not even a tracker at all. For him to get a "no result" on diddin means diddin would have had to Jailkeep him. Why would town diddin JK Oso when that would have cleared him today? Especially considering diddin was a likely lynch today based on the end of day discussion yesterday. Yesterday, I think most people believed me being doctor over him being Jailkeeper, so why would scum kill a probable lynch, unless diddin would expose scum? We never directed diddin on whom to Jailkeep, so non-tracker scum Oso would not be able to predict where he went last night, and would therefore expose Oso when diddin counterclaimed an alternate target. I'll have to go back and check to see Oso's timing on his results to see if he had any inside information before it was discussed in thread.

The other thing I can't quite wrap my head around is the N1 actions by Sotty and diddin. They both claimed to have blocked each other, and I don't have any reason to think they didn't; but again I still need to go back and check the timing on Sotty's claim to see if the watcher/tracker results are in prior to claiming. This still leads me to believe that my protection of Humble is what saved the NK.

What do you make of the setup?

To be honest, I'm completely demoralized by the setup, since everything I have thought has been pretty much wrong. In terms of setup speculation and balance, it might be

Roleblocker/Watcher/Goon

vs

Doctor/Jailkeeper/Cop (insane?)/4x VT/Lynchee

vs

Lyncher

. With there being two protective roles I feel more confident about Charter being a lyncher since that would eliminate two non scum bodies if he was successful and help the potentially under balanced scum team.

Nothing happened at my house.

Explain in greater detail, please.

xvart.

[xvart]

Shit. You're right. Scratch that. But why would the scum kill diddin? He was a more than likely lynch today.

xvart.

[xvart]

I was asking about the fact that you were waiting on Vezok to give his information out TODAY. If vezok had to watch you, according to the plan, did you really think he would say anything but "no one visited xvart"?

The 2nd paragraph makes practically no sense. It's really bizarre (and scummy) coming from you.

I can't remember now why I wanted him to claim first, but I suppose it was because I hadn't connected everything together (Vezok vs. Oso) and even though I was starting to be suspicious of Oso (unfounded as it turns out) I said Vezok because he was my most likely suspect starting today. I also thought that Vezok would be the most likely to make a mistake in claiming out of everyone who has claimed a role, so I wanted him to go first.

Diddin was not a likely lynch because he would be confirmed by Oso. He was town (scum knew that) so killing him was a great choice. If he lived, you'd be facing the same predicament of being the non-confirmed claimed protective role.

You're right. I was thinking from a scum perspective with my town mindset and didn't consider the outside knowledge that scum would have.

The fact that you *seemingly* forgot you agreed with my plan is disturbing.

The other thing I can't quite wrap my head around is the N1 actions by Sotty and diddin. They both claimed to have blocked each other, and I don't have any reason to think they didn't;

You have no reason to dis-believe confirmed scum?

No, because the only reason I can see Sotty committing the kill and choosing not to Roleblock is if both of his partners were under suspicion and thought they were likely to be tracked. I don't see scum throwing away a roleblock, regardless of if they had a solid read on anyone being a power role.

diddin is town so he was telling the truth.
diddin: n1 sotty, n2 Oso (Oso could track), n3 Oso (Oso couldn't track)
Sotty: n1 diddin (unknown), n2 diddin (likely due to Oso being able to track sotty)

Looking back on it I don't think we should have directed diddin, but I didn't consider that at the time because, like I said, I didn't believe diddin was going to flip town JK. Which is also why I forgot about that part of your plan, because I never really thought that was going to matter.

---

VOTE: xvart

Some of that is what I've already put forward. I did a quick ISO of xvart and I pretty much confirmed my opinion of him. He's been playing strong town and even the things that I thought were were off became explainable as more information came into the game. Namely claims and actions. His behavior lines up with my conception of town all down the line. I saw this though:

Shit. You're right. Scratch that.

But why would the scum kill diddin? He was a more than likely lynch today.

xvart.

Right after the post were I pointed out diddin was directed. I missed the second part. I read the

"Shit. You're right. Scratch that...."

and then went on to SSBF's post.

Not that this will mean anything, but I wish I had the balls as scum to play the way I've played this game. My response was genuine, and I wanted to quickly respond to you saying you were right. Like I said, I've been pretty demoralized after diddin's flip which would explain my lack of completely thinking through my accusation of you.

I'm going to use the credibilty (now dead)KG gave me. He died and flipped cop while having said, in the thread the day before he was NKed, he thought I was town. Here:Post-678. So unless you want to argue sanity or argue that he didn't want to come out and give a confirmed 'guilty' result in order to get another day, then I am confirmed town even if it is a bit ambiguous by KG never having come right out and said I was 'Innocent'. I may be wrong in some of my reasoning but I'm not scum being deliberately wrong.

Which is why I mentioned in my balance thinking that an insane cop might be more likely now that I know diddin was town JK. Of course, I can't confirm my doctor claim, so my opinion won't hold much weight, but it is more likely in my eyes that KageLord was insane.

I'm guessing that xvart hoped (wrongly) that his claim would get diddin lynched yesterday based on a counter-claimed protective role and getting into a comparison of play (diddin vs xvart) up to that point in the game. A comparison that xvart would have won had it took place, no question. Of course, he(xvart) would be lynched today in retaliation but an important thing would have happened, diddin wouldn't have been able to protect anyone last night leaving the way open to get the Tracker(me) or the Watcher (if you believe vezo is town).

You have to think if I would put myself on the chopping block for the same reason: if I rallied the troops and got diddin lynched, he flipped town JK, as scum I would then be outted and lynched immediately. It would be more practical, if as scum my only desire was to kill the protective role, to wait and NK him; if I got watched or tracked, the same result would occur: my lynch the next day, so it would be a better move to wait until night to kill him instead of championing his lynch for two days (and failing).

---

Another thought, and I haven't looked at the numbers to see where this puts in terms of MYLO/LYLO in consecutive days, but it might be worth asking Charter to claim if he is a lyncher, claim his target, then that would help us narrow down the pool because he and his target would then be confirmed as non scum. If we lynch scum tonight, our trade off with Charter, if the numbers allow it, would be lynching his target, then lynching the final scum.

xvart.

[xvart]

First, please someone unvote me. If both of you are town then scum could come in and semi-quick lynch me under the pretext of me being scum because diddin flipped JK. If you want to revote me later, fine; but just ease off right now.

@q21: Ok. Let's assume xvart flips scum. Any ideas for a third partner? Now let's assume he is town. Same thing.

xvart flips scum the other scum is either vezok or SSBF
xvart flips town the scums are you and vezok/SSBF

Why would Humble be scum if I flip town? If I was an outside observer and I flipped town doctor, I think that would validate Humble as town. And what are your justifications behind SSBF or Vezok being the other scum in both scenarios?

---

Where did this lyncher business come from? Who started that and around where?

I'm going to hold off from claiming until I've read the whole thread, however. Should be tonight. Doesn't matter to me who goes first.

I initially suggested it after your predecessors predecessor (jay) said:

Unvote: Vote: Humble Poirot

Humble is 100% scum, confirmed..B4 you all ask me how and why I AM 10000% about this..I will not roleclaim.....also after he is lynched and flips scum, please can I get protected tonight for obvious reasons, thanks...1 scum down!

He basically said he had a confirmed scum read, 10000% sure, on Humble, on day one. Then dropped out of sight after it was suggested he was a lyncher. Then your predecessor tried to play it off while still trying to build a case on Humble, saying he developed his read based on what he thought jay was thinking with a huge long post of observations, when jay had never said anything at all. So unless jay was a day cop (which is pretty obvious he wasn't after KL flipped) or a real idiot, the only logical conclusion is he was a lyncher trying to pull a fast one.

xvart.

[xvart]

I've isolated all the interactions SSBF had with confirmed scum Sotty, plus one where Humble asked him why he wasn't voting Sotty.

SSBF the deadline is seemingly around the corner why has it taken you so long to back off Tasky when you really stopped pushing his case awhile ago? What are you doing to help us reach a lynch?

For your first question, it's due to my play style. I tend to keep my vote on a person longer then most people, especially when it gets near deadline. This is because I don't like being inconsistent with my game play.

@ SSBF: What do you think about quadz's vote on you? Why didn't you initially comment on it?

For someone who stated numerous times that I was scummy, he hasn't really brought much to the table as explained below.

As for why I didn't intially comment on it, I was trying to come up with a decent response to it, but could not think of one. At least I finally got it done.

How likely do you think it is quadz will flip scum?

Based off evidence supporting that he's scum, I'd say it's pretty unlikely. I'm 70% sure that he'll flip scum. While with vezokpiraka, I'm 85% sure, since he has more evidence supporting his scumminess.

What is scummy about Tazaro independent of vezo?

Obvious I hated Tazaro's hammer as he just came by and said "Oh, here's the hammer even thought I know the person is probably going to flip town.". Even if it's close to the deadline, a person who genuinely thought he was scummy should have hammered, not a person who has no opinion on anyone's alignment.

His justification for his hammer on quadz08 is very weak. He tries to use static to determind that it will most likely be a mislynch, which is a given since after all, Mafia is a game of the uninformed majority trying to get rid of the informed majority. However, when it comes to scum hunting, static and evidence supporting scummy behavior do not mix with each other. Him treating it as an informational lynch isn't a much better reason either as every lynch we should attempt to hit scum and we cannot afford to lynch someone purely for information.

He suggested that since mislynches usually happen Day 1, we should think that we got a mislynch coming. I really dislike this mentality. Town should never treat Day 1 as a probable mislynch Day, they should put forth all efforts toward finding scums on that day just like in later days, less information or not.

Tazaro's play is scummy independent of vezokpiraka's alignment. He'll look a lot worse if vezokpiraka flips scum.

This is all well and good if Tazaro was in the game since the start. He wasn't. He came in and hammered right near the deadline, no matter how you try and spin this it isn't scummy. There were no other viable wagons, little to no time to push anyone else up what did you expect him to do? I have also explained why the hammer isn't scummy during my discussion with Oso, what do you think of that?

If I had gotten to this thread early enough, I would have hammer quadz08. Not because for an informational lynch, but because I truly thought he was scummy. Scummy people are likely to flip scum. I would have felt a lot better if someone who actually suspected him hammer instead of just someone who replaced in.

And to answer your question, if you don't think the hammer is scummy, that is your own opinion, disagreeing would not put you on my scum list. I personally think it is scummy and I want to make my opinion known.

I think you are pushing a very weak case here. His fluff posting his scummy, his not reading the game is scummy and these are things you don't even mention. The hammer is probably the one thing that isn't scummy about his play so far.

The hammer isn't the only reason why I suspected Tazaro. I didn't like how he tried to justify it with static, I didn't like how he said it was an informational lynch to him while others except vezokpiraka thought quadz08 was scummy. I also didn't like how he wanted us to think that Day 1 is probably going to be a mislynch, which is a really bad mentality to have. It is more then just the hammer. Also, other things I don't like about Tazaro has already been said by other people. On top of that, I do plan on building my case on him, so what you see is not all you're going to see from me attacking Tazaro.

And finally, when asked why he was voting Vezok and not the likely scum RB-sotty by Humble:

Just want to remind people that Sotty7 is at L-1.

Why vote the possible scum watcher and not the most likely scum RB? We can tie the hands of the watcher but we can't do the same with the RB.

For two reasons:

1. I originally had a town read on Sotty7 while always had a scum read of some sort on vezokpiraka. Which one do you think I'm going to vote now that they're both suspicious? It makes sense to go with someone you always suspected, especially if they remain consistency scummy. While Oso gave out some damning evidence regarding Sotty7-scum, vezokpiraka was always scummy and him watching you when he should have been watching Oso/KageLord indicates that he's more likely to be mafia.

2. I do not want to jump on a bandwagon which goes by other people reasons and not mine as well. Yes I am suspicious of Sotty7, but my reasons for suspecting her has already been said by Oso. Unless she gets so scummy that she's obvious scum, I will not vote her until I find some evidence of my own supporting her being scum.

There is relatively nothing between SSBF and Sotty from SSBF's posts. Nothing at all other than answering some clarification questions posed by Sotty. The last quote about his view of Sotty and Vezok is especially interesting, and although his logic might be argued as legitimate (voting someone you've always considered scum vs voting someone who has just now become suspicious) except for the fact that the evidence on Sotty was pretty overwhelming, and I don't really think his validation that both are scummy works since the evidence on Sotty was so strong.

---

Oso (claimed tracker, confirmed neighbor)
Humble Poirot (claimed VT confirmed neighbor, possible lynchee)
q21 (claimed VT)
Charter (unclaimed, possible lyncher)

xvart (claimed doctor)

vezokpiraka (confirmed watcher, unconfirmed alignment)
Super Smash Bros. Fan (unclaimed)

quadz08, Vanilla Townie
Tazaro Tasky, Vanilla Townie
KageLord, Town Cop

Sotty7, Mafia Roleblocker

diddin, Town Jailkeeper Neighbour

---

xvart.

[xvart]

Vezo, why on earth did you target Xvart last night?

Because we told him to.

xvart.

[xvart]

As for my claim, I'm just a vanilla townie. The reason I was so interested in hearing who brought it up, is it's an extremely uncommon thing for town to think of in a game. Also, just to throw you all for a curve, here's a game where the lynchee was scum. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14295

We don't blame you. You replaced into a terrible situation that was only compounded by your predecessors' play.

Vezo, why on earth did you target Xvart last night?

To further add to my previous comment about him being told to watch me; it was a way to keep the doctor safe from the night kill. Because if I died, Vezok would have to claim who targeted me (regardless of his alignment).

However, whoever said that Vezo's targeting of Poirot is suspect is totally correct. There is a claimed cop, and he watches some unknown claim? Yeah right.

My theory at the time, and I still think it might be correct, is scum watcher Vezok was trying to catch the doctor who protected Humble the first night and prevented their kill:

Preliminary thoughts make me think that vezok didn't target humble on night one because humble was supposed to die (but was saved due to my protection). It is also possible that he targeted Humble night two since scumvezok would know that Humble was saved and might be a likely save again (or even an investigation, which also occurred).

Lol, Xvart claiming protecting Humble two nights in a row. In addition, Xvart's 791 makes less than zero sense. He's claiming that Sotty and Dddin are both scum, and both blocked each other, and then both fudged up their claims. That's a believable thing to be going through a townie's head.

What is wrong with protecting Humble two nights in a row? I was under the impression that I saved him night one since he was (in my opinion night one) the most town person in the game and there was no death night one. Why wouldn't I save him again?

---

@Oso: Killing diddin makes sense for anyone as scum. He would be confirmed by you. If you were scum it would be a great move. It wouldn't confirm you at all. Anyway, I don't think you're scum, at all, but it's a piece of logic I don't agree with.
As for sanity, yes, I don't think that Kage was sane given there's at least one watcher or tracker or doc + JK + Cop.

But then wouldn't KageLord's softclaim about Oso mean he was scum? This is where I am getting hung up.

No, because the only reason I can see Sotty committing the kill and choosing not to Roleblock is if both of his partners were under suspicion and thought they were likely to be tracked.

Who said it has to be one or the other? Many mods allow kill + special ability from the same person.

I don't think I've ever been on a scum team where one person could commit two actions, at least when there are enough people to do both. I think in newbie games the rules dictate that if the scum goon is killed then the roleblocker could do both block and kill. But I suppose you're right in terms of not knowing for sure in this game.

Also, who's scum, xvart? You've only talked about yourself thus far.

I'm pretty sure Vezok is scum and I'm thinking SSBF might be scum based on his interactions with Sotty. Although q21 isn't looking so good right now either.

I think the safest play for us today is to lynch Vezok, but keeping him alive helps us control the night actions.

xvart.

[xvart]

If you flip town then Humble's night action plan begins to look like the perfect plan to get both diddin (JK) and you (doctor) out of the game in the space of one night and one day.

Can you explain this plot to me? I'm not following you. When was this plot hatched and when would it be executed?

Each day less interested in what you think HP. And I don't have any actual information to give.

Dude, at this point in the game, if you are town, you should have absolutely no reason to say something like this. It further divides the town and inserts a distraction and a rift. It doesn't help, so if you feel this way; keep it to yourself.

I would also support a lynch on Charter.

So you think charter is scummy? Explain to me the scum motivation of his post 237 when he outright claims Humble as confirmed scum on day one.

Note for self : Never play in games hosted by totallynotmafia.

Actually, despite being completely off in my reads I've enjoyed this game tremendously. The flavor has been hilarious and great for a normal game, and for the most part have enjoyed the playerlist; but this can be discussed post game.

xvart.

[xvart]

charter - I protected Oso last night.

SSBF - why did you wait so long to claim?

The fact that Vezok justifies a vote on Oso without including the fact that he is a claimed tracker is highly suspicious.

From my perspective,

confirmed not mafia players

include:
charter (this player slot has basically been ignored all game; why would he be trying to get involved if he was scum and could easily coast to end game?)
Humble (doc protected on N1, no kill N1, possible lynchee)
xvart (doctor, protected Humble N1, no NK N1)

Unconfirmed alignments:

vezok (watcher)
Oso (claimed tracker)
SSBF (claimed VT)
q21 (claimed VT)

We should lynch Vezok today. If he flips town (unlikely), Oso is scum, and gets lynched tomorrow in LYLO. Then we have to decide beteen q2t and SSBF for the remaining scum. Maybe I'll save someone again, which would then confirm another player (unless they target me and I don't protect myself). Or, I save Oso (pending Vezok scum flip) and he tracks either SSBF or q21 and we get a result or no result, then know who the remaining scum is.

Thoughts?

xvart.

xvart.

[xvart]

I have no idea why xvart protected humble night 2.Maybe to make his claim more believable.I have seen xvart as scum and he is pretty good.

You flatter me. Every time I read this thread I wish I would've protected KageLord N2. I seriously thought about it as I explained (quoted below). Since I am now a hairs breath away from being lynched, I suppose it is time to start the counter wagon on someone who is actually scum.
VOTE: Vezok (L-2)

I protected Humble on night two, as well. I strongly considered protecting KageLord due to his soft claim, but I WIFOM'ed myself to death on whether or not the scum would roleblock KageLord and kill an active and thoughtful town. Since vezok had his softclaim day one and survived I figured that KageLord would probably also not be the target and since Watcher's typically do not have the ability to watch themselves I thought that diddin would block KageLord and then pretend to JK someone else, maybe even a partner that would confirm his results.

xvart.

[xvart]

That was xvart's response to Sotty7 when she said that her flip as town wouldn't reflect any at all on diddin's alignment. The role-blocking part is stressed there. Flip that around a bitand look at the 'Doc' part of diddin's role, note that his alignment is confirmed (being that he is dead and flipped) and then look at xvart's claim. The same logic applies here. To be quite honest, had(xvart) countered diddin on the day diddin made his claim, I'd have been the first on the diddin wagon. That he waited to counter until after he had been tagged performing a night action counts very heavily against him in my book.

The quote of mine was typed in an attempt to protect my role and alignment. I said the stuff about diddin being more likely to be town to play off the impression that I might be a doctor, which was becoming increasingly obvious. After I realized that once I died everyone would know I was a doctor and diddin would be exposed. And I didn't want to counter claim and expose myself because I thought I could push through diddin regardless because of his scummy behavior.

5 instances that I could find where xvart acknowledges that he not only knows about the plan to have diddin jail me, and me track diddin, but 2 of them (819,823) where he makes a point of stressing that is what should be done. Sudden brain fart just doesn't seem to quite cover that.

Actually, those are five instances where I acknowledge you tracking diddin; not diddin JK'ing you.

Despite his disclaimer, I can't think of any reason to ask that question unless there is some doubt in his mind as to whether his claim is going to be believed. Now whether you think he had doubts because he is actually a Doctor and thought he might end up lynched when stacked up to diddin's claim or that he was fishing for a believable role is up to you. I am believing the latter because of diddin's claim and these (all xvart posts):

I was asking the question because I was hoping to trap scum by having them say I was the doctor but having an alternate play or trying to push my lynch. I also was gauging whether or not scum already thought I was doctor or not, which if they all said doctor what does it matter if I claim or not? If you look back at my play and posting, my intensity and questioning of diddin when he claimed, I'm either a very elaborate and meticulous scum setting up this claim while immensely stupid by creating a fake claim that would get me auto lynched after diddin flipped; or I'm actually the town doctor.

xvart.

[xvart]

I really think you are scum now xvart.
Tomorrow I may have a different opinion though. All is better with a clear mind.

You will most certainly have a different opinion tomorrow. In fact, you will have a different opinion immediately after my lynch flip.

xvart.

[xvart]

Oso - I totally see where you are coming from, because that is exactly (exactly) the same stance I had against diddin (there can't possibly be two protective roles on town side). But I implore you to go back and ISO me and ask yourself if you think I could pull off the shit I have pulled off this game as scum. Like I said, I wish I had the balls to play this way as scum. Every move I have made has been from a doctor perspective. Check my wiki for scum games and do a brief ISO skim of those games and see if they even come remotely close to this game. I know this post will be seen as AtE, AtI, Appeal to whatever, but it is all true.

More than likely, there is no way a scum member is going to hammer me because they know I will flip town and I doubt that both scum are on my wagon right now.

Oso - we lynch Vezok today and if he flips scum you're pretty much cleared. That leaves q21 and SSBF. You track one of them and I guarantee you won't die (as long as I am not the lynch). One of them will have to make the kill. If the person you track goes to the person who dies then we have the last scum. If that person goes no where and there is still a kill then it is the other person. The only problem is if they no kill that night, but that's okay too because we buy enough time to lynch both q21 and SSBF.

The only thing that is itching the back of my mind is that all three neighbors are town in this scenario, which makes the town more powerful; but again, I've never played with neighbors so I don't know how powerful mods consider the paranoia between neighbors. Does anyone know if neighbors are usually picked randomly or are they generally assigned?

xvart.

[xvart]

q21 - if the scum decide to NK me then that will confirm me as town doctor. I will have protected Oso (pending Vezok flipping scum). As long as Oso tracks someone tonight it doesn't matter if the scum NK me tonight or not because Oso will still have a result (or not result) but my suggested plan is still valid; and if I'm dead I trust the town to figure out the potential no kill dilemma on their own. If vezok flips town and I get NK'ed my suggestion would be to lynch Oso, since it is highly highly doubtful that the town has JK + cop + doctor + watcher + tracker.

xvart.

[xvart]

(If by some twist of fate, we are in LyLo right now, I'ma shit twice and die I think.)

So will I.

xvart.

[xvart]

So... jay was simply a lunatic? Oso, any results?

xvart.

[xvart]

Okay then. I think that the scum is stuck and possibly killed charter to undermine Humble (since the lyncher thing was pseudo clearing him). I think he was also the most obvious target that wasn't likely at all to draw a night protection no matter what. I think scum likely left me alive again to try and undermine me, or they were worried that I would self protect. I think Oso is confirmed town due to vezok watcher, I'm still the doctor, I still think I saved Humble N1 so he is semi confirmed. I still think that q21 or SSBF is the likely last scum, and if Oso tracked one of them we will have it pegged down (this is also why if Humble was the remaining scum I don't see him killing charter). The only problem is going to be if Oso went with his gut and tracked me to himself last night.

xvart.

[xvart]

Also, R.I.P. for poor Charter. Thanks for replacing in, man! Sorry for thinking you might be a lyncher!

Yes, thanks charter. You replaced into a terrible spot. Sorry I didn't pay more attention to you.

@xvart: Lyncher pseudo clearing me? (puzzled look on my face). I thought scum was more likely to use a lyncher to their benefit. I think the only one who mentioned I was town-ish because of charter-lyncher was vezok (and look at his flip)

What I meant was if you were the lyncher target than as a lynchee you were pseudo cleared because in most mini games a lyncher target would be town.

I can't self protect, but I kept throwing it in there in hopes someone (hopefully scum) would question it. I was going to say something about I had the ability to self protect once, but I basically was just using it to WIFOM the scum during night in hopes of staying alive and further shortening their potential target list.

Last night I actually submitted no action first, because I didn't think scum would target Oso (especially since they didn't target him last night after I sort of declared I would protect him) and I didn't want to interfere with the scum no killing or me protecting; so if I didn't protect anyone I could and there was no kill I could say with complete confidence that the scum no killed. But then I freaked out and figured that losing Oso would be too much of a detriment so I sent a last minute save on him.

Vote: SSBF

xvart.

[xvart]

Log it off to rampant paranoia but when xvart mentioned MyLo/LyLo with one scum down, I couldn't shake the feeling that there were actually 4 scum in this game. No way to back it up though.

Haha. The second after I hammered I couldn't help but regret it, also thinking that maybe there were four scum since the town had so much power. The whole three town mason group was really kicking me, so then I started thinking that maybe Oso was scum tracker and vezok was (obviously) scum watcher, and those two roles were supposed to balance out the doctor movement. I started thinking that Oso was trying to pull a fasts one and get the wrong person lynched (if there were four scum) which would hand them the win.

I had a lot of fun with this game. More comments to come!

xvart.

[xvart]

Good game, everyone. I hope quadz comes back so I can apologize for rallying everyone to his lynch. My only explanation, and Humble hit it pretty much on the head here. I had nailed scum on D1 in the last three games I had played, and my read on quadz was stronger than any of those reads; which is why I was so vehement about it.

Scum and Masons - will you share your QT?

xvart.

[xvart]

Interesting scum QT. First, vezok - you seem to really have it together in the QT. I think vezok does a better job conveying information in the QT than in the actual game. Second, while all my scum reads were horribly wrong, it appears I nailed the motivations behind scum actions pretty closely (i.e. vezok watching Humble to catch the doctor). I really, really, really wish I would have saved KageLord N2; and I would like to believe now that all my WIFOM during that night was painkiller induced right before my surgery since, from my perspective, I was thinking diddin would RB KageLord but then he would have to give a false report the next day, and possibly be outted if he chose someone who was actually a PR. I really thought that scum would try and kill an active, thoughtful player and RB the softclaimed cop, because that would be most beneficial to them in the long run (not that it mattered since diddin was town; but scum probably could have screwed diddin over by blocking KageLord and him having no result the next day would have put even more suspicion on him D2).

I hope Kage comes back in here and talks about his soft claim.

Mod comments: I really, really enjoyed the flavor. It was very funny and interesting for a normal game. The game was fairly unbalanced in the town's favor, so I'm interested to here your thought about the setup creation and general afterthoughts. I also didn't like the game not opening up on time the last two nights and no explanation.

I did three things that game that I typically never ever do. I forecasted into the future and speculated about scum pairings; speculated about balance and setup; and used meta as a scum read. Lesson learned, or at least in moderation next time.

xvart.

[xvart]

Good game everyone, I'm surprised SSBF risked being tracked and specially because the risk he took didn't involve killing xvart.
In my Humble Poirot opinon (IMHPO) he should've:

a) No killed and tried to get q21 or xvart lynched.

b) Risked it and shot xvart in hopes that charter would lead to a lynch against q21. Shoot Oso at night and throw me and Charter against each other in a 3p lylo.

The bolded is exactly why I initially put down "No Action" last night; but then I knew if Oso died I (and the town) would be screwed so the benefit of avoiding that no kill discussion wasn't worth it to me.

I also want to hear from sotty's plan to avoid his lynch (which he talked about on twilight)

Yes, thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten about that even though I mentioned bringing it up later.

I felt special empathy with xvart (Another PR heavy game in the bag, eh?) and Kagelord. High five guys.

Definitely. I really enjoy playing with you, Humble. I think we have similar posting styles and balance each other out nicely. I have a tendency to go nuts while you are more calm and collected; but we both seem to have a similar vision. And, I love long (relevant) posts.

I'd give xvart the town MVP Award. With his Doc claim coming out a day after diddin's jailkeeper claim, had he been acting the least bit scummy in the game up to that point, I think he'd have been lynched. It was pretty much on his play alone that I think I wasn't able to sell the rest of the thread on lynching him once diddin's role was confirmed. (And props to you guys for not allowing that to happen). Good thing I was a Tracker instead of a Vig. I'd have definitely shot him over that one.

Thanks; that makes me feel better even thought I railroaded two townies and got one of them lynched. This game really reminds me of that narration of one of the characters in The Legend of Bagger Vance where they describe his play as all terrible shots into the rough and a strong finish at the end (wish I could find a youtube video).

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart, don't feel bad about some mistakes you made. At least you weren't scum's portrayed as scum's puppet in the QT.

lol. I halfway expected to read in the scum QT N1 that I would be an easy mislynch or easy to target as a distraction. I thought for sure scum would use me as the puppet.

Apology accepted. I played pretty badly, to be fair. However, I must ask: how did the hat taste?

lol. Not too good. I was actually going to post some random image of a guy eating a hat from google images but I decided it wouldn't do well to dwell on it or bring it up.

xvart.

[xvart]

Vezok - did you really not know that you were the Tazaro hammer? And I doubt that the Godfather

had

to submit the kill, but probably just had final say in the kill target in case of descent among the ranks; although, a good question would be if a scum could do both action and kill in the same night.

I also should have mentioned that when sotty claimed JK I was thinking about claiming some sort of JoAT role where I submitted my first doctor protection against Humble, in hopes that if I claimed some weak other roles when questioned the scum would leave me alone; but I could never get the claim down right where either the scum wouldn't know I was lying or I would eventually be detrimental to town.

xvart.