Open 230 - Bird 7 - Game Over

[AurorusVox]

/confirm

I've arrived at the party late it seems ;_;

Hi budja and xScorpion

[AurorusVox]

Yeah, I've not played with anyone here before, though I'm playing with some people in a different game ^^

Hey, if people are voting before the day, does that mean these are technically night actions? Night actions with the end result of death? I.e. night actions that kill? I.e. night kills? I.e. the actions of scum?

Dun dun dunn...

[AurorusVox]

Vote: Cirdua

Your avatar is so scary T~T

[AurorusVox]

Joking is synonymous with scum?

[AurorusVox]

mod: I'm going to be slightly V/LA til Sunday (GMT); I say slightly because I might get on Thursday or Saturday evening, but I think it's best I notify you/others just in case I can't get on til Thursday

[AurorusVox]

Looks like I can get on to post after all...

Well Mykonian, if you're scum, go ahead and quickhammer and we can lynch you tomorrow.

finally, a reaction.

Now, I wonder, why do you assume the lynch will be incorrect? While you are voting for him!

unvote

VOTE: Xscorpion

Thank you scum, for this wonderful insight.

Ouch. This is the single most convincing scumread I've seen so far.

Also, to add fuel to the fire, xS questioned budja putting Robocopter at L-1 with a simple "why?"

a) This is despite not really posting his own reasons for wanting to lynch robocopter
b) He didn't insinuate that budja was scum for quickly putting robocopter at L-1, though he insinuates that myk would be scum for quick-hammering
c) If he's as apathetic about a robocopter lynch as it seems from his questions, why doesn't he just unvote robocopter to take away the mislynch that he's convinced it would be?

Vote: XScorpion

--

@Budja; Robocopter has been apathetic in his defences, sure, and it looks like he couldn't care less about being lynched at the moment, which is admittedly suspicious, but do you think that you've provided anything for him to defend against other than just calling him scum?

@Robocopter; you said that you don't mind getting lynched to help keep PRs hidden, but by happily getting yourself lynched, you're narrowing down the number of players for the mafia to choose from for their night kill. Would it not have been better to get the scum lynched than sacrificing yourself? Now that he's claimed, though, I'm wondering if it's a good idea to go ahead with the Robocopter lynch anyway, since he could be scum claiming VT, and so as to not out any PRs.

[AurorusVox]

Now, I wonder, why do you assume the lynch will be incorrect? While you are voting for him!

If you are scum, the lynch will be incorrect. Unless you are bussing your partner for no reason at all?
Your logic sucks.

a) This is despite not really posting his own reasons for wanting to lynch robocopter
b) He didn't insinuate that budja was scum for quickly putting robocopter at L-1, though he insinuates that myk would be scum for quick-hammering
c) If he's as apathetic about a robocopter lynch as it seems from his questions, why doesn't he just unvote robocopter to take away the mislynch that he's convinced it would be?

I'm not sure if you know this or not, so I think I'll tell you: We haven't really left RVS yet. If you think that I've played seriously so far...
but then again this is coming from the guy who thinks hiding information is good for town. Never mind.

If you're going to try to use my meta, at least get it right. In the game you are referring to, I actually said that I agreed with you that hiding information is often anti-town. Flail more please.

[AurorusVox]

In this game?

My mouth says that I suspect you. I am already voting for you. Therefore I am putting my vote where my mouth is.

Unless by "with me" you're asking me to vote for the same person as you, in which case you're suggesting that I should hammer someone because I partially agree with you on a game-theory related matter.


If you're talking about the other game, then this isn't the place to discuss that.

[AurorusVox]

I'm not asking you to not discuss another game in general. I'm asking you to not talk about who I should vote for in the other game, in this game. If you have an issue with my vote in the other game, take it up there.

[AurorusVox]

Stop trying to derail discussion in this thread.

Since we've established that the second half of this is wrong:

"I'm not sure if you know this or not, so I think I'll tell you: We haven't really left RVS yet. If you think that I've played seriously so far...
but then again this is coming from the guy who thinks hiding information is good for town. Never mind."

all we're left with is:

"I'm not sure if you know this or not, so I think I'll tell you: We haven't really left RVS yet. If you think that I've played seriously so far..."

Your threat to Myk was serious enough.

And if I've seen something to seriously comment on, then I'm out of the RVS, because there is a reason behind my vote. And I'm not going to just discount everything you've done because "it wasn't serious", or else, what is the point of RVS? RVS is meant to give us stuff to talk about, right? So now I've found something to talk about, and am voicing my concerns. Why are you worried that I'm putting a serious case together on you? If you're innocent, you should have more than crying about it still being RVS to defend yourself with.

[AurorusVox]

Your threat to Myk was serious enough.

I must have missed the part where Myk was proven to be scum and he quickhammered.

IF he quickhammered, would you have voted him tomorrow?

[AurorusVox]

IF he quickhammered, would you have voted him tomorrow?

And Robo flipped town? Yes.

Then your threat was serious.

[AurorusVox]

Then your threat was serious.

I'm of the opinion that he would only have quickhammered if he was scum.

Do you deny that the threat was serious?

Also, Budja has said that he wouldn't care if anyone hammered on Robocopter. Do you think he's scum for not caring if someone quickhammered? I mean, he basically gave the quickhammer the go-ahead. It's saying, "If I were in that situation, I wouldn't mind (quick)hammering." But you've not issued a similar threat to Budja, despite him putting Robocopter at L-1?

[AurorusVox]

Do you deny that the threat was serious?

If he quickhammered, I would vote him on the next day. Is this too complicated for you to understand?

You're the one that doesn't understand.

I know that you say you would have voted him the next day. Because of that fact, I proposed that your threat was serious. I wanted you to give me a yes or no answer as to whether you agree to my proposal, because you deny having played seriously in this game so far.

Hence my question; "do you deny that the threat was serious?" But I'm no longer interested in your answer. As far as I can tell,

Either you lied and have played seriously.
In which case, why lie, scum?

Or you lied and your threat wasn't serious.
In which case, why lie, scum?

[AurorusVox]

You don't even want to hear the possibility that I'm town anymore so I'm not going to waste my time.

You can accuse me of tunnelling all you like, but you've tried to dodge my questions, and that doesn't look like something a town aligned player would do. Perhaps if you spent your time actually answering my questions rather than avoiding them, I might consider you being town, and it wouldn't be a "waste". But I'll follow my other questions for a while since you clearly aren't interested in them anyway.

---

A good question. I know that it would narrow down the town, but just by one, the way I figured it, Cop can confirm someone as scum. Then you could get a scum lynch without a problem. I don't care if you lynch me. But, I am NOT self voting/hammering. Won't do it.

That relies on a series of particular events - cop investigating a mafia, mafia not killing the cop, cop not being counterclaimed, etc, etc. Also, even assuming that everything goes according to your plan, you'd end up in 3-man lylo with no clears. Do you feel that such a situation, even the "best case scenario", is worth losing a townie over, considering we could instead lynch scum today? Or are you just trying to look like you'd bravely offer up yourself for the good of the town (I'm not sure I'd even agree that it's that much in the favour of the town)?

But I'm glad you won't self vote.

[AurorusVox]

This is extremely obnoxious to listen to. Aurorus, I understand what you are saying I agree with you. but stop fighting with him. He isn't going to stop.

Yes, well, I've decided to focus on questioning other players for now :\

[AurorusVox]

@Robocopter

A good question. I know that it would narrow down the town, but just by one, the way I figured it, Cop can confirm someone as scum. Then you could get a scum lynch without a problem. I don't care if you lynch me. But, I am NOT self voting/hammering. Won't do it.

That relies on a series of particular events - cop investigating a mafia, mafia not killing the cop, cop not being counterclaimed, etc, etc. Also, even assuming that everything goes according to your plan, you'd end up in 3-man lylo with no clears. Do you feel that such a situation, even the "best case scenario", is worth losing a townie over, considering we could instead lynch scum today? Or are you just trying to look like you'd bravely offer up yourself for the good of the town (I'm not sure I'd even agree that it's that much in the favour of the town)?

But I'm glad you won't self vote.

and @Budja

@Budja; Robocopter has been apathetic in his defences, sure, and it looks like he couldn't care less about being lynched at the moment, which is admittedly suspicious, but do you think that you've provided anything for him to defend against other than just calling him scum?

[AurorusVox]

@The Cirdua claim-question, I was going to ask the same thing as Robocopter, but I'll leave asking about it til Cirdua comes back. It looks a little fishy, but I'm going to temporarily suspend the potential for WIFOM and say that I doubt scum would be so brazen to ask for a claim straight out of the gate.

I've never played as scum on here, so I can't answer for how I act as scum on the forum, but I can either answer for how I generally played as scum on EpicMafia (which is so much shorter than games here (it's IM based) and it's more to do with specialist roles), or answer for how I think I would act as scum on here. I'll go for the latter, because EM scumplay would be quite different to MS scumplay --

I think that scum should interact with their partner just like they would with any other townie. So I'd try to agree with points that I agreed with, and FoS and vote them for reasons that I would normally vote or FoS them for, and generally try to make it look like we weren't partners. I guess it wouldn't be as easy as that in practice, though, so I can't tell you if that's how I would actually act :\

Myk, is there a reason that you singled Robocopter out for the question first before opening it up to everyone else?

[AurorusVox]

The reason I didn't go into my experience-as-scum on EM is because there, as scum or town, you spend far less time asking questions, so the relationship between scumpartners is one that you barely need to consider. I discounted it because I didn't think it would be relevant, but I'll go into detail for you.

For example, on a daystart D1, most people just vote "No lynch" immediately and wait for night actions. At least since I joined it, EM is more about the power roles - cops, watchers, trackers and so forth are included in almost every game - and so most questions are concerned with those claimed power roles, not townie on townie, townie on scum, scum on townie, or scum on scum. On EM, you have little need to bus your partners unless a clear PR has gotten a report on them, at which point its stupid to not bus them. If it ever comes to a bunch of regular townies discussing FoSes, and my partner is still alive, I'd FoS whoever I felt was justified to FoS, my partner or otherwise. But doing that in a twenty minute game is very different to doing it in a game where the first day alone can take three weeks, because there's not as much material to work with.

I also said that the play I described (interacting as though they were town) is what I would try to do, so I think saying that I didn't answer "how I expect myself to play" is unfair, because I quite clearly did answer that. Yes, I said that mafia "should" act that way in my opinion, but that just means that that is what I would aim to do, or in your words, what I would expect myself to do. I can't say for sure if I'd be able to do it effectively or not, because on the rare occasion that it comes down to it on EM, it works sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't, and I've not yet had the chance to be scum on here. You don't want me to talk about what I think people "should" do, but I can't talk about what I have done, because I haven't done it yet.

[AurorusVox]

In case you missed the fact that I did answer your question:

Are you the kind of person who interacts heavily with his/her partner (distancing or fake buddying), or are you trying to make sure we don't find out by not interacting a lot with your partner. It is a question of playstyles (and personality).

I'd try to agree with points that I agreed with, and FoS and vote them for reasons that I would normally vote or FoS them for, and generally try to make it look like we weren't partners.

If it's still not clear enough, I

expect

that I'd interact with them as much as I needed to, so it'd be reliant on the partner. If they were scummy, I'd pick them up on it. If they weren't, then I'd have no need to.

[AurorusVox]

I thought that DJ's hammering was quite scummy really, considering he had said he thought XS and I were engaging in a "town on town" argument (I was going to bring it up but I was responding to your questions first). He seemed to hammer because of something that XS said - "Hammer me, I dare you" - that was more to do with his personality. I don't think that playstyle, regardless of how irritating it was, should be the reason for a hammer vote. In fact, it looks to me like it could have been an opportunistic scum move. DJ, what changed between your "town vs town" argument, and your hammer vote?

About Cirdua - I think he's been V/LA for most of the day, so I don't want to read too much into his lack of XS vote. I definitely think that he will need to post a lot more in order to give us a read on him. I'd rather wait to see what he says when she comes back rather than judging him on his Day 1.

Mykonian, I feel you're misrepping again. I showed little signs of scumhunting? I scumhunted XS pretty hard (after your point about his assumption of mislynch) and asked a number of questions of Budja and Robocopter as well, and this is despite being V/LA for part of "yesterday." I find your misrepresentations interesting - I wonder if you're doing it on purpose, or if it's just some sort of clarity that's lacking in my posts?

[AurorusVox]

I could have started with it directly but you had already beaten me to the first post of the day and started with something else so I wanted to deal with that before moving onto other things. If I'd just started about something else, I have a feeling that you'd have criticised me for avoiding answering the question (you accused me of this even when I did answer the question xD). Incidentally, you've talked about the hammer, but not said what you thought of it. Care to expand on your thoughts?

As for my reads;

-Unless DJ has a convincing reason for his hammer, I'd put him at #1 scummiest based on that (I've explained my thoughts on the hammer above). I was getting a neutral-to-townie vibe until he ended the day so abruptly.

-Unlike DJ, I don't see Robocopter's early claim as necessarily indicating a vanilla townie. He seemed blasé about being lynched, so I don't think he thought he was under that much pressure. The early claim can be a sign of scum, so I'd say I'm wary of him. He didn't really do that much yesterday, so I'm uncomfortable with him and would put him at #2 due to my read on you and my lack of read on Ciruda. But this is more of a speculative suspicion than anything really solid as of yet.

-I like your scumhunting posts, I don't like your misrepresentations, but it looks like this last one was a misunderstanding on my part, so I'll let that issue slide. You didn't really do much yesterday either, but you've started quite aggressively today with lots of questions (which I like and think gets you townie points). On the other hand, you could have already planned your aggressiveness last night and coordinated with a scum partner (but I don't think that's what's happened). You're my strongest town-read out of everyone, because you've been the most pro-active in scumhunting.

-I have a neutral read on Cirdua because he's not posted much to judge him by. I think even just plain lurking is a null-tell, because townies do it just as much as scum in my experience, but that could be more common in Newbie games where most of my games on-site have been.

-I have a townie-read on AurorusVox.

[AurorusVox]

If Mykonian is so scummy, what do you make of his defence of you? He's been pretty vocal about how "townie" you are. Would you lynch Mykonian over Cirdua?

[AurorusVox]

I don't like the way your acting. Because you have no reason but are throwing suspicion on someone.

I just reread the whole thread.

My conclusion. Don is scummy.

Were you trying to be funny with the way you worded that or have you just done something that you accused someone else of doing? :\

[AurorusVox]

Waaaa -- I was so slow to post my response that there's been a cop-claim since I started posting it Now I get why you cleared Robocopter so off-handedly. If you're telling the truth, then we've got our Ciruda/Mykonian scumteam. I'll wait to see what they say before doing anything else as well.

[AurorusVox]

^Surprise, surprise, the obligatory counter-claim with fake report.

I wasn't defending his claim, I was saying that if he'd been the cop, the operative word being "if". Since I'd seen him as scummy since yesterday, I was ready to doubt his claim if only you'd had a guilty report on someone else, scum. If you'd had a guilty report on Robocopter, for example, I'd have been convinced that

you

were the real cop (but he would have then been in my position and known that you were scum). But you've obviously gone for the fake report to save your scumbuddy Ciruda.

So now I'll ask the cop, do you still want to lynch Ciruda over Mykonian?

[AurorusVox]

Yes, but clearly my scumreads weren't as good as I'd hoped. That's what I mean - you had me in the palm of your hand if you'd acted differently. It's the same argument as what you used against DJ - he was your top townie read, and now you want to lynch him because of his cop claim. You were my top townie read, and now I want to lynch you because of your cop claim. I don't see the difference in how we've acted here.

[AurorusVox]

Aurorus switched his stances completely around this claim, and suddenly went from attacking Don to feircely defending his claim.

this is the point that makes it most clear

.

More classic misrepresentation from Mykonian. Are you ignoring the posts where I show that this is exactly what you did to Don_Johnson too? You said he was the towniest player, and now you're voting for him. How is this different from me finding you the towniest, and now saying that you are scum? And don't be stupid, of course my read is going to change when you make a fake claim and fake report. I'm not going to say "Oh, yes, the report is fake, but Mykonian must be town."

For me to continue thinking you're town I'd have to assume that you think that Ciruda is the cop and that you are town fake claiming in order to get Don_Johnson, your towniest read, lynched. Which is absolutely ridiculous. So yes, I know you're scum, its just that my scumdar wasn't functioning optimally before the fakeclaim.

[AurorusVox]

Robocopter, I'll happily lynch the fake cop with you.

Vote: Mykonian

That puts him at L-1. Town victory is in sight

[AurorusVox]

Budja protected me <3

I think DJ's claim was ballsy, and I thought it was because he suspected Cirdua of being the cop but it looks like it paid off Myk's cop claim post was more convincing, I think, but when he started rushing Robocopter to not wait for Cirdua, that seemed to be the thing that turned Robocopter the other way. I mean, RC thought DJ was scummiest before the cop claims came in

It looks like I did quite well at hiding the scumteam before that, and I only got investigated because you thought I was town? So at least I know my scumgame is alright :p I guess it didn't matter that I defended DJ at the end because even if I hadn't, you (Myk) would have known that there was the scumteam right there But I still don't get why you thought I would continue to think DJ was scummiest, when I had to pretend that his counterclaim had a fake report? If you're the fake cop, DJ must be the real one :O

Cirdua, lol, you've quoted my genderbender in your sig <3 I called you he later on ._."

I felt sorry for Robocopter when he got to L-1 and no one seemed to care

Oh, XScorpion, you're here too -- I found your play a little difficult to get on board with and that is regardless of my alignment, so I was happy to push that for nefarious means >:) I only called you out on things I'd have called you out on as town though. The day was over quite quickly, but your "dare" did kinda tempt that into happening :\

Yay, no more obsessive re-reading to check that my posts aren't scummy before posting them

[AurorusVox]

:O You're hiding my scumtells from me you big meanie

And yes, I'd have said that I thought that you were the real cop if you had gotten a report on someone else. If you'd gotten inno on anyone, or a guilty on DJ, I'd have bussed DJ, no question about it. But I had to pretend that your report was fake, and if you had a fake report, I had to pick DJ as the real over you