NY 117: The Vanillaside (Game over)

[DemonHybrid]

VOTE: MEHPLUSRAWR

CAUSE YOU SAID NO GRAMMAR, YET YOU FAILED TO END YOUR SENTENCE WITH A PREPOSITION

THOUGH YOU DID LEAVE OUT A COMMA

[DemonHybrid]

@SSBF: Why did you vote MPR?

One it was because it was RVS. Two was to help form a bandwagon on him to see how he would react. So far, it's working. Like for example:

Oh, hey, I don't feel like shouting. Let's wagon someone else. I have a feeling this MPR dude is town.

Why is he concerned about a bandwagon that isn't even based on him being scummy? It's not like we're planning on lynching him yet.

I don't like how he dropped his yelling act at the same time that he made this post. Seriousness + worry = I think he's scum, so I'm going to keep my vote on him at the moment.

[DemonHybrid]

Actually, I just couldn't figure out a way to say it in caps that didn't sound grammatically awkward. And yeah, anyone who gets voted 5 times in 5 posts gets concerned, unless they're a jester. Hi Elli.

And no, I'm not *concerned* that I'll be lynched, as such. I figured that I should comment on the fact that I'm the closest to dying as of yet.

Then what are you concerned about?

[DemonHybrid]

Thoughts on anything other than MPR?

Yeah. But first, as far as MPR goes, I'm doing some thinking and I'm also very familiar with his meta...however, I believe you have it wrong.

Here comes some lolmeta...ugh (those who play with me regularly know I hate talking about meta)

In my experiences with him, when he's lurky, he's usually town. Just has nothing to say and is often bored with his role to the point where he won't pay much attention. Him speaking this much in a game is odd for his town play.

However....something about this game makes me feel alright with him being town as well. Mostly about the way he handled the pressure of us questioning his "contradiction".

The second quote was attempting to rephrase the term "concerned," because though it's obviously a matter of interest to me that I'm being wagoned, I'm not actually worried that I'm about to be lynched.


The wagon was growing too quickly for my liking. And yes, you did say that I was concerned about being lynched, in this quote.

This, by the way, is not a contradiction. Again, a rephrasement is in order- I'm not worried that I'll be lynched from scumminess right now, but I'm slightly nervous that a whole bunch of people voted me quickly. Quicklynches are bad. Like quicksilver. I think that gives you cancer.

The speed of the wagon was pretty alarming, I'll admit, and he reacted exactly like a townie should, IMO. I found it pretty alarming that the reaction to my post pointing out that I thought he contradicted himself a little created a firestorm of votes on him. So, for right now, he's fine in my book.

However

, I do not like SSBF's relentless pursuit of MPR. It seems too forced. I think he's one of the few people who took that contradictions to heights where it shouldn't have been. Also, this post didn't sit right with me:

@Korts: Keeping xRECKONERx alive until endgame will be a very daunting task to do. We do not want to lynch him for sure and we obviously cannot afford him to be NK'd. With no protection role for the town, scum is going to be hard-pressed to keep him around, especially if he were to give his all to help the town. Prehaps him being completely useless until endgame would help his chance of survival, as scums like useless townies, but we all know how much we hate useless confirmed townies.

Basically, the chances of xRECKONERx living to endgame is very, very slim.

However, while we don't want xRECKONERx to die, one benefit of his death by scums hand is that scum would have to give up one of there power role and become Mafia Goon. It would suck to see a confirmed townie die, but at least scum loses a power role, so that's something to gain from xRECKONERx's death.

Either way, the Town Power Roles should do nothing to him during the Night.

And I had another realization. With a Vigilante, if we lynch scum ToDay, kill scum ToNight, and lynch scum agan Tommorow, town wins. Yes, a Day 2 victory for the Town is possible. But we need to be completely accurate with lynching and the Vigilante killing scums and hope that the Vigilante doesn't die.

The first bolded quote: How does he know what scum's going to do? Furthermore, that's -quite- a lot of speculation of the twist we have in this game.

The second bolded quote: He seems to be very set on how long this game should last. Call it gut, but that kind of speculation subconsciously rings out as somewhat scummy to me. It shows eagerness for the game to be over.

Unvote, Vote: SSBF

[DemonHybrid]

ugh... 3 pages while I'm asleep. Not cool guys.

Vote: Incognito

You didn't say hi.

Just want to say that we're out of RVS already. Do you have anything you want to say about the game?

RVS ends for different people at different times. You can't dictate when someone's RVS is over.

[DemonHybrid]

SSBF doesn't even strike me as all the scummy at the mo.

Regardless of that aside from twirling mustaches that 87 reads like some magnificent stretching.

Time for a crusade!

Unvote, Vote: DemonHybrid

Well, I like to pick up psychological tells as well as logical ones. Eagerness, jealousy, anger and frustration are good places to start, and I see his post as nothing but eager to get the killing started. Otherwise, all of SSBF's contributions have been about MPR's wagon (which I don't like the speed of) and dictating peoples' RVS lengths. Right now, he's the scummiest person I know, but it's only page 4.

[DemonHybrid]

Lies -

SSBF has "discussed" the matter of lynching reck

, how we should spend our time day by day, and the MPR wagon stuff (along with a style-wise attack on me).

You just have your MPR wagon stuff and this new attack on SSBF soon after people question / attack you about only focusing on MPR

Comparably... you would be scummy from your own standards.

First bolded quote: Notice how I said otherwise. Spyre said I was stretching on my vote of SSBF, and my vote of SSBF was due to the Reck post.

And sure, he talked about how we should spend our time, but that post isn't really relevant to the scumminess of people nor who should vote who. It was merely a suggestion of how to use a minor mechanic of the game, so I didn't really consider it important.

Also: I never said that he's scummy ONLY because he's talking about those things and only those things. You're warping my words around a bit.

[DemonHybrid]

First bolded quote: Notice how I said otherwise. Spyre said I was stretching on my vote of SSBF, and my vote of SSBF was due to the Reck post.

And sure, he talked about how we should spend our time, but that post isn't really relevant to the scumminess of people nor who should vote who. It was merely a suggestion of how to use a minor mechanic of the game, so I didn't really consider it important.

Also: I never said that he's scummy ONLY because he's talking about those things and only those things. You're warping my words around a bit.

So... "aside from the other things he's said, he's only said this" - really great argument here

. I'm just blown away by your genius.

Care to point out which reck post?

If you are talking about the only one I've commented on, it came

after

your vote, so yah.

Fair enough.

I'm pointing out standards - you are as guilty for a limited quantity of discussion as SSBF is, and you've jumped ship from MPR as it shows it's not happening to SSBF right when pressure is mounting on him, which can be seen (and is being seen by me) as opportunistic wagon hopping

.

First bold: Logical clarification: I didn't say that he was scummy because and only because he was only talking about the MPR wagon and dictating RVS votes. Again, you missed the word "otherwise".

Second bold: I'm talking about when SSBF was speculating on Reck, not any of Reck's posts. This one:

@Korts: Keeping xRECKONERx alive until endgame will be a very daunting task to do. We do not want to lynch him for sure and we obviously cannot afford him to be NK'd. With no protection role for the town, scum is going to be hard-pressed to keep him around, especially if he were to give his all to help the town. Prehaps him being completely useless until endgame would help his chance of survival, as scums like useless townies, but we all know how much we hate useless confirmed townies.

Basically, the chances of xRECKONERx living to endgame is very, very slim.

However, while we don't want xRECKONERx to die, one benefit of his death by scums hand is that scum would have to give up one of there power role and become Mafia Goon. It would suck to see a confirmed townie die, but at least scum loses a power role, so that's something to gain from xRECKONERx's death.

Either way, the Town Power Roles should do nothing to him during the Night.

And I had another realization. With a Vigilante, if we lynch scum ToDay, kill scum ToNight, and lynch scum agan Tommorow, town wins. Yes, a Day 2 victory for the Town is possible. But we need to be completely accurate with lynching and the Vigilante killing scums and hope that the Vigilante doesn't die.

Read again: "and my vote of SSBF was due to

the Reck post.

" More word twisting.

Third bold: Dude, my last post before that was when I asked MPR about the contradiction. First things first; I have a life and I do things, plus I'm in 4 other games, so I don't keep up fully with every post all the time. Second, SSBF hardly had any pressure on him whatsoever when I casted my vote. In fact, he has more pressure now than he's ever had before. Point out where pressure was building on him before I made my vote on him.

[DemonHybrid]

SSBF contributed to a big chunk of this topic's posts. He's had time to talk about other things.

[DemonHybrid]

SSBF contributed to a big chunk of this topic's posts. He's had time to talk about other things.

So lots of posts = lots of time?

I guess that means lurkers are completely innocent if they only talk about a couple of things?

Yeah, lots of posts = the ability to take another minute to write something else. Humans are miraculous creatures and can really multitask + manage their time in amazing ways.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: All of this sarcastic logical fallacy posts are starting to wear me down. Of course lurkers aren't innocent if they only talk about a couple of things.

[DemonHybrid]

*aren't always

[DemonHybrid]

I find Ray to be somewhat Neutral-townish. He's been slipping a bit on his logic and reasoning in attacking me though, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for right now. Perhaps it is just him waking up, and I'm not about to risk a mislynch on something minor like a few word misunderstandings.

SSBF hasn't posted, so my read on SSBF hasn't changed. Ray hasn't particularly defended him, instead taking the route of attacking me, so my argument with Ray and my suspicions of SSBF are mutually exclusive at this moment.

[DemonHybrid]

Work tomorrow from 8-12, then 4:30-10. If anyone has something for me, it has to wait till that gap in the middle or after 10 EST. Sorry

[DemonHybrid]

The second bolded quote: He seems to be very set on how long this game should last. Call it gut, but that kind of speculation subconsciously rings out as somewhat scummy to me. It shows eagerness for the game to be over.

Can you explain this more? SSBF talked about the game being over quickly from the perspective of town ridding scum quickly, so I don't see how you jumped to the conclusion that he seemed eager to have the game over as a scumbag.

Because, on a subconscious level, it expresses the fact that he wants the game to be over regardless, which is non-conductive to a pro-town attitude. Sure, he posts it from the view as town wanting to rid scum quickly, however, I find it weird that he needed to express it in such a fashion and might be an attempt to just win over town instead of making a good argument against scum. Town shouldn't be focusing on the end of the game unless they have scum in their sights (as in, one more scum to kill between X amount of people) or it's a LyLo situation (both are high pressure situations); they should be focusing on who's scum and who isn't, and on a psychological level, it rings out as

somewhat

scummy to me, especially on Day 1. (Note that I mentioned that it was somewhat scummy in 87 as well)

[DemonHybrid]

So, I think what you're basically trying to get at is that you feel like his post basically just pointed out the obvious and that it looked like an attempt to seem like he was analyzing stuff when in actuality he wasn't.

Why the emphasis on "somewhat scummy"? You voted him in that post - wouldn't that mean that he was your scummiest pick at that moment?

Sort of....basically, I think he's trying to look pro-town when the very very basic concept of that post is something town shouldn't be worrying about at this point in the game (The very beginning of Day 1). The end of the game shouldn't matter at this point, and he's thinking way too far ahead. Therein lies the scumminess.

"Somewhat scummy" meaning that was one of the few things that added up to my decision to vote him, not the sole factor.

[DemonHybrid]

Anything intresting in the last 6 pages?
I am always down for a lynch on DH

Vote DemonHybrid

I did a bad thing. I read the entire thread out of boredom.
Now I am sure my vote is where it should be. On scum.

So, no thoughts, whatsoever?

I'm giving Nacho the benefit of the doubt, since he said he'll give his reasoning sometime today, but please find examples and try to convince us how this isn't just completely blatant bandwagoning.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't need to do that now.

And why not, since you seem to have the time and the desire to make a case against me? Withholding information is anti-town, and it doesn't help us out in the least.

FoS: vezok

Also: MPR, I'm actually in your boat right at the moment. I picked up a few games too many, so it's a bit hard to keep track at the moment and stay vigilant. I'm also working two jobs today, so I'm trying my best to stay active in all of these games.

[DemonHybrid]

However, I did just ISO DH, and so far, he's been pretty passive. Though he weakly posts twice about my wagon, he soon drops it and defends me as town- I notice, however, that most of my wagon had dropped by this point. There's a possibility that DH was scum trying to push a lynch on me (before he realized that my wagon was RVS/stupid), then attempted to make it look like he hadn't pushed a wagon on somebody who wasn't scummy.

Not really.

My posts were simply this before my vote on SSBF:

I voted for you for RVS. I said that you being serious (posting in non-caps) at the same time that you said everyone should vote for someone else was weird. I asked about your contradiction. I left to go do some things and came back to the response to your wagon, which I found favorable. Perhaps it's bad timing, but it's not something I could have controlled.

[DemonHybrid]

I really don't like DemonHybrid's post 87. What little of the post is actually spent on answering the question in reply to which the whole was apparently written is concerned with SSBF's setup speculation, which was well-reasoned as far as I can see. Nor can I see scum motives that DemonHybrid is ascribing to the bolded sections. Seems like a bad attempt at painting someone black. I somewhat agree with the target, but not with the particular reasoning--why not attack me, for instance, when I invited that speculation you so harshly attack?

I believe this is the invitation of the speculation that you meant.

As for Reck getting vigged: no. If Reck is to die by the town's hands, he will be lynched, no way are we going to vanillize a town killing role. I think this discussion can be fruitful--Reck's death means robbing the scum of being able to fuck with our heads, but also the town of a confirmed innocent down the line. Now, I think having a confirmed innocent in the endgame is very valuable, but will the scum keep him around for that long? Discuss.

While I disagree and ultimately feel that a confirmed townie should -never- be targeted for a lynch regardless of the situation, I thought SSBF's reply was scummy simply because of his wording. It feels like he's speaking for the scum, something which I find to be somewhat of a slip.

"@Korts: Keeping xRECKONERx alive until endgame will be a very daunting task to do. We do not want to lynch him for sure and we obviously cannot afford him to be NK'd. With no protection role for the town, scum is going to be hard-pressed to keep him around, especially if he were to give his all to help the town. Prehaps him being completely useless until endgame would help his chance of survival, as scums like useless townies, but we all know how much we hate useless confirmed townies."

Notice the difference in tone. It's like comparing apples to oranges. These sentences specifically:

Korts: "Reck's death means robbing the scum of being able to fuck with our heads, but also the town of a confirmed innocent down the line."
SSBF: "With no protection role for the town, scum is going to be hard-pressed to keep him around, especially if he were to give his all to help the town."

I see opening all options as a town way of viewing a problem like this, and while I don't agree with his lynch in the least, the underlying tone is what sets you and SSBF apart (and what makes SSBF worthy of pressuring). SSBF is using forced speculation. You have options open to press for information, which is less speculation and more of a way to start discussion...and more information is what we need at the moment.

But I don't want to see anyone pushing Reck's lynch in the least. If Reck gets lynched, that's just one missed opportunity to lynch scum. Let's just take the days as they come regarding this Reck speculation.

[DemonHybrid]

He has still not answer Socrates's question on who else is scum.

^

It's not that hard of a question to answer.

All of DH posts are scummy.

Yeah. Elli is town. That's all for now.

I gave you way more than enough time to find an example of mine of which you find scummy. Now another question comes up, someone asks you for a scum-list (which is way more important than your weak backing of one person) and you completely ignore them.

You are withholding information.

It's majorly scummy, and majorly fail, and because of it, everyone wants you majorly dead. Don't blame this on laziness either, because if you are -able- to post, you are -able- to take a few minutes to come up with a good case/a good list.

I'm not going to vote you until you claim, however (that'd put you at L-1).

[DemonHybrid]

Since there are less people voting Vezok at this point in time:

Unvote, vote: vezok

. I want you to answer Socrates' question.

[DemonHybrid]

Yeesh. I have to post this quickly since I'm on a lunch break that ends in 5.

I see Socrates' post having a tint of urgency and panic in it. So, vezok's L-1 now, and you decide to lash out now, after he ignored one of your questions fully (which is an action that has absolutely nothing townish going for it). Very worthy to note. Why haven't you said anything before about this, you know, when he had 3 or 4 less votes on him. Also, vezok finally feeling like he has a breath of fresh air and auto-replying after Socrates' post (whereas he would hesitate to post when people were actually accusing him) is noted as well. Seriously, he posted that response -one minute- after Socrates posted his, whereas his other answers took hours.

If it's about my position on his wagon, it was 1. because of my work schedule, 2. me giving vezok the benefit of the doubt and time to reply to your question on who's on his scumlist. Also, ask Ray/Spyre/Nacho/Seraphim/yourself if you guys were hesitant to call me scum. That's sort of a fallacy on your part.

The whole one minute reply thing is the one thing that irks me above all else in this situation. It's even weirder now that scum has the ability to daytalk. Please tell me that I'm not the only one who noticed.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, my god.

I don't even know where to start picking apart vezok's post. Really, calling an RVS post useless?

I just got back from work, so expect a reply in a bit. I'm relaxing first.

[DemonHybrid]

1. Useless.

2. Says someone is scummy just cause of RVS. I don't like this statement. He is trying hard to find a way to keep his vote there.

3. Asks a good question. Townie points.

4. Sees the wagon on MPR stalled. Starts voting for SSBF. With little to no reason.

5. I am not sure what to make of this post.

6. Says SSBF is scummy for telling some people that the RVS was over. Says SSBF is his major suspect

but

this can change because there are only 4 pages.

7. This is exactly what you said. You said he was scummy because he only discussed this points. You are back pedalling now.

8. This is some kind of AtE. I see it as scum concerned with his image. He tries to defend every little thing that people acused him for.

9. Tries to discredit SSBF.

10. He says that Ray is town. Especially if SSBF flips scum.

11. Says that SSBF is scum because he wants to end the game quickly. I want to end it quickly too. An open setup is not something too intresting. You want it to be over quickly. It feels to me that SSBF is VT.

12. He says he is scum because he wants to end the day quickly. It's just bored town from my perspective than scum.

13. Again some AtE. FoSes me in case my wagon goes off. He wants to be able tow switch without too much trouble and at the same be able to say : " It was just a FoS".

14. Still thinks SSBF is scum. Now for some very stupid reason. He feels like he is trying to get people to follow him and vote for SSBF. He tries to find every minute detail on him.

15. He begins to suspect me. More like go with the flow.

16. He now switches his vote on me because there are less people voting for me. Why not continue to vote for suspect SSBF.

1. I'm seriously astounded that you'd attack such an obviously silly RVS vote. I really have nothing else to say other than it feels like you've never played mafia before if you think RVS posts like that are "useless". So, why my RVS vote, and why not -anyone elses-? Curious.

2. That post was out of RVS for me. I started to suspect MPR, and I don't think his post was RVS either. He dropped his all-caps act and started to get worried about the alarming rate of the votes piling up on him. Please explain to me why you think this exchange was RVS (or rather, why MPR's post was in RVS stage).

3. Nothing to say here I suppose.

4. Read back. I had work that day and just came back to MPR's response. Is there any other way I could have posted truthfully without looking like I wagon hop? To be town in your eyes, I would have had to skip out on work just to come back and beat people to getting off of his wagon according to your logic. I have a life. I mentioned all of this earlier.

5. It's simply a mafiascum fact. RVS ends for different people at different times.

6. Him dictating others' RVS periods was -weird-, but not exactly scummy. I said other than the eagerness in some of his posts, him dictating others' RVS periods and commenting on the MPR wagon were his only contributions. It was his eagerness which stood out to me as scummy. You misread that post. Read it again.

7. Where in this post:

"Well, I like to pick up psychological tells as well as logical ones. Eagerness, jealousy, anger and frustration are good places to start, and I see his post as nothing but eager to get the killing started. Otherwise, all of SSBF's contributions have been about MPR's wagon (which I don't like the speed of) and dictating peoples' RVS lengths. Right now, he's the scummiest person I know, but it's only page 4."

did I say "He is scummy because and only because he is eager + has little contributions"? When I said something about his scumminess in this post, it was simply this:

"Right now, he's the scummiest person I know, but it's only page 4."

Which could mean that he could be anywhere on the spectrum of scumminess, but still scummier in my eyes than others. No one else really rang out as scummy to me at that point.

8. Go look up what AtE means. There's a difference between "FINE, go ahead and lynch me, you'll just be killing a townie!" and "I had work, so I wasn't around to do whatever, blabbidy boo." Having a life doesn't mean I'm appealing to emotion. There is no emotion when it comes to peoples' inabilities to post...and I'd like to think no one at my jobs have emotion either

As far as me defending "every little thing" people accuse me for: I was explaining to RayFrost how he misinterpreted me. Twisting this post around like crazy.

9. Please explain to me how you think I'm wrong on this subject. I merely said that if he had the time to reply to posts point-by-point, he had time to stop and think for a minute to explain whatever he needed to explain without skipping out on it. I say this a LOT about you because you've posted a lot of "This guy is scum and this guy is town. QED" kinds of posts. Well, you also had time to make cases and point out why you think people are scummy. It's called withholding information. I said this to you once before, and it is plain and certain anti-town if you are able to post, but don't answer any questions directed to you or ignore someone. If you don't think you will have the time, don't post, or say that you have X amount of minutes in the beginning of your post, like I did during my lunch break.

10. Neutral-town is different than town. I have a town-ish feeling about him, not that he's purely town. Also, way to assume SSBF's connection to RayFrost. There's a reason why I said I felt that their reads were mutually exclusive. I hope you know what that means. I can google it for you if you'd like.

11. If you're town, you should be taking the time to think about your arguments instead of wanting the game over quickly "because it's not interesting". That's all I'll say on this subject because the argument pretty much writes itself.

12. See the last point.

13. It was a warning of "I want you to give us any information you have to help town. I suspect you if you withhold information. Get to it". Once again: Not having the time to post =/= AtE.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... to_emotion

Here you go.

14. The tone of someone's post can say a lot about them. Here's another link you'll find particularly interesting. It's not a denial, but it's the same idea:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ificDenial

Basically, speculating like that, talking for scum in a specific way creates the tone that he's part of their alignment. So, here's another example.

"Oh no, someone stole a cookie from the cookie jar. I think it could be Ted or Bill."

"So...I think Ted or Bill could have snuck in during recess to steal the cookies from the cookie jar."

Who would you be more inclined to believe has more information about who stole the cookie from the jar? Subconsciously, since person #2 knows more about the specific situation, you'd suspect them for having something to do with it.

15. Jeez, just read. I gave you time to answer any questions and give a scum-list, and you failed to do that. So I started to suspect you. It had nothing to do with the flow of the wagon. Read the post that I gave during my lunch break.

16. Yeah. To keep you from getting lynched pre-maturely so you could claim and give you more chances for a better defense. I never said I suspected SSBF less, either. You look scummier to me at the moment. More word twisting.

I wrote this with a fried brain, so excuse spelling mistakes or general idiocy.

[DemonHybrid]

I think this is the fourth PBPA I did.

Demon's last post. Now he is trying to acuse Socartes because he didn't lash out at me to respond his questions.

Actually, I wonder two things about Socrates at the moment.

Why isn't he on your ass about your response to his request for a scumlist?

Why didn't he talk against your wagon earlier, when you were 3 or 4 votes less? Why wait till you were L-1?

[DemonHybrid]

I like Fate's style haha

[DemonHybrid]

If SSBF flips town we lynch Sera.
End of deal.

I'd like your reply to my rebuttal of your PBPA, since you seem to have time to post.

Jack, I'd like to know your thoughts on it too, since you said you never really read any of my posts after mid-game.

[DemonHybrid]

Is it just me, or do the reasons people have for switching get shittier and shittier as we build more wagons?

I agree...things are getting much more jumbled.

I can't see myself taking my vote off of Vezok at the moment until he replies to my PBPA rebuttal and stops just going along with wagons for the hell of it. He's -really- irking me very very badly.

I'd recommend someone unvotes Sera until he claims, however, just in case someone wants to be a wiseass and go along with the hammer. L-1 situations can be very dangerous.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote, Vote: Seraphim

Consider yourself #2 on my scumlist now.

[DemonHybrid]

Look at how flipfloppy it was. Now try to disagree with a straight face.

[DemonHybrid]

Nacho, don't be fucking stupid.
We're fucking lynching Seraphim.

What is it about this post that compelled you to make a decision to switch your vote?

[DemonHybrid]

And why is being flipfloppy scummy? Do you honestly expect me to have rock-solid reads on Day 1?

Because it shows lack of care about who dies and a willingness to go with the flow. And no, I don't. But at the rate that you switched your vote, it's a bit irking.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm willing to hammer Seraphim for the greater good, obv.

Debating fakeclaims in the QT Seraph?

It is a bit strange that him, one of the more vocal players, just completely dropped off of the face of the earth now that he has pressure on him.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, I didn't know you were asking me a question. What do you want me to respond to from your last response, specifically?

[DemonHybrid]

Well, I suppose it's a valid excuse, but I didn't like the execution.

Consider my eye on you, but I'm more concerned with this Vezok and Sera situation at the moment.

[DemonHybrid]

I just got back from work, so excuse me not being around so often.

As much as Spyre looks really terrible by accusing Ray of a daycopped Seraphim (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ificDenial), I really can't overlook this post about Korts:

I'm just going to start with korts here, as I feel taht his 15 posts will be the quickest to read through and deconstruct.

I'm going to ignore some of them to deal with the ones I feel are scummy. Feel free to bitch and moan abut how I left out like... two posts that seem remotely townish and a bunch of worthless ones. You might get a reply.

Quick comment on a perceived contradiction with this post and korts' later comment that his first "100% serious vote" is here.

The contradiction here is brought to light by the extensive discussion that korts made about

lots of players other than nacho

that were actually more solid than his reasonoing for his vote, not to mention the

utter and complete lack of any mention of seraphim

. This means seraphim didn't catch his eye...

at all

. Looking at the actual timing of the post, I would like to point out that this is when

tremendous pressure

and an entire wagon was forming on vezok, not to mention the attacks on DH. The sudden attack on seraphim was born from nothing new that was major since his previous postings: deflection at its finest. Not to mention that he's made multiple spiels regarding vezok, but has yet to actually vote him. Oh, he hims and haws, saying that he would,

but...

and then points to something else.

I also find the contradiction of emotion in the talk about reck's lynching or not-lynching relative to his posts regarding play to be odd, not to mention the fact that korts barely pushed his wagon on seraphim. He made a small case (small compared to the reasoning that he pointed out for disliking other players in his initial catch up post + the combined cases of other players), and he just makes small nudges, such as this one.

I would also liek to point out the

extreme disparity

between this post and this post, each made a day apart. The first one is before my own case on the vezok lynch, and he states seraphim is active (when sera hadn't really been posting at all... HMMMMMM). And then, after my case, he just goes "is this a policy lynch?" when it clearly wasn't. I'd made a case, he went against his previous comments on getting behind a vezok lynch and instead sat happily on his seraphim vote without contributing virtually anything and making weak questions with no real evidence of having actually read the case put forth or, if he had, that he had deliberately misrepresented it in order to weaken it and provide an excuse to either draw out the game or at least not change his vote.

Each instance he's spoken of vezok, he's had a distractor along with it. I'm going to call korts + vezok right here and now.

I'd also like to point out to the rest of you yet again that korts' postings have repeatedly stated that vezok is scummy, but he's also then said "BUT WAIT, LOOK OVER THERE!" instead of actually pursuing it.

I actually had this written in my head before the day started, but it changed a bit when I actually read korts' postings. He's avidly avoided joining a vezok wagon at all times: when it was starting up, an apparantly non-serious vote on nacho, and when it was peaking: a mention that he disliked vezok's play but a distractor in the form of a seraphim vote. Korts has made many mentions of vezok, not pursued them, not fully engaged in them, and held them at arms length as if hoping that the stink will not attract to him. Distancing. Defending through distraction. Ignoring cases.

Ray makes a TON of good points about Korts. Lots of contradictions and a complete overlook of Vezok and right onto Seraphim.

However, the only thing I would disagree with is Vezok being his scumbuddy after further analysis of Vezok; I think that it was just an opportunity to go for the person with the really weak reasoning in order to capitalize. Whereas once I thought Vezok was scummy because he was completely avoiding questions, looking through his (ugh god, I can't believe I'm mentioning this.....)

META

*gag, ugh*

...anyway, I've found that Vezok's always been a fine connoisseur of really vague play and question avoiding. I'd like to believe that Korts just took the opportunity to weakly jump on the guy who looks obviously scummy instead of a bussing situation.

Maybe there was a daycop on Seraphim courtesy of Korts or one of his buddies, but regardless, I really don't like the amount of contradiction that's going on here.

Vote: Korts

[DemonHybrid]

What's up with Vasude Va that everyone's giving him a hard time?

I'm wondering if anyone has any past games to show me with him in it haha, he seems to have quite the reputation.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, my internet's been down a whole lot recently so I haven't had the ability to post.

I'm STILL trying to figure out what's wrong with VV, anyone have a link to an old game? lol

[DemonHybrid]

@Mod:

V/LA 8/13-8/15

Going out of state for something for the weekend. I'll be back on the 16th.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm back.

I'll do a quick readthrough and post some new thoughts.

[DemonHybrid]

RedCoyote makes some very very very good points. I think Korts lack of care of the game caused him to contradict himself a few times due to a lack of focus, so I'm going to let that point go for now. Doing a quick readthrough of MPR's ISO, he really hasn't posted ANY content whatsoever and has been jumping on every bandwagon (with the exception of the Korts bandwagon). RC, you're talking a lot about his defense of Vezok, yet the only indication of a defense is Seraphim's vote change.

Regardless, he's been on every major wagon this whole entire game with the exception of the Korts wagon (and probably because he didn't want to risk quicklynching for whatever reason). He started voting Spyre for his RVS vote, then Nacho when the wagon was on MPR, then Vezo, then me, then SSBF....does this all sound familiar? SPEAKING of the Korts wagon, he seems dead set on speculating that Korts would claim gunsmith if he's scum:

Korts, L-1, claim.

If he's scum, he'll claim gunsmith to get a CC. Let's *not* get a CC if he claims that, unless everybody talks and agrees on letting a possible CCer claim.

I don't really like it.

After RC's big wall of a post, MPR had a LOT of material to defend....and chose to back down and just call Spyre scum. This was two days ago, however.

I have a bad feeling that after being on nearly every bandwagon (with that one exception) that he's not voting for the new one: Jack. Maybe he doesn't want to bus?

I think Jack's in the same boat as Nacho and Vezok here though. These fucking mafia players that never say anything and vote for no reasons whatsoever, this is why the game is stagnant most of the time. Anyway, I'm keeping MPR's reluctance to defend himself and reluctance to vote Jack in mind.

I do think, however, that Vezok's still being Vezok in this case, and it IS hard to tell with Jack. I'm waiting for more reads, but they need to post more. If MPR gets lynched and flips scum, I will be looking at Nacho (MPR's vote of choice when the wagon was on him) and Jack more...moreso Jack than Nacho.

Unvote, Vote: MehPlusRawr

[DemonHybrid]

Yes, I said those two things.
So?

So explain what changed your mind about him. It looks like you're bandwagoning blatantly.

I have to read back and see what was fishy about the wagons, I just got back from work today and didn't know the day started until now. Post later on tonight.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, reply to RC later on tonight too. Hungry and tired right now.

[DemonHybrid]

To RC: I suppose I like the theory. I really hate Vezok's important hammer vote without a reason:

unvote
Vote MPR

...and that's it. That's an important vote, a vote ending the day, and you aren't going to say anything else?

If vezok dies and flips scum, a Jack bus might be EXTREMELY plausible, as per RC's theory. Even with Vezok's meta in mind, Vezok's anti-townness can't be ignored any longer. It's like he's riding the flow to a scum win.

The combination of vezok's quick and terrible hammer vote and anti-town behavior leaves me no choice here.

Vote: vezokpiraka

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Jack

What a fucking terrible vote.

[DemonHybrid]

Fuck, I guess we did lose track of how many people were alive for a bit.

I'm all for the gunsmith coming out at this point, we need all the help we can get.

Unvote, Vote: No Lynch

. No sense to lynch today.

But goddammit, how I want Jack dead at the moment. It's pure fucking courtesy to let the person talk before you hammer him. He's also been just hanging back and bandwagoning like a fiend all game.

[DemonHybrid]

Just posting to say that I'll be on now and then but no promises, I just got to college and I have a ton of shit to do.

[DemonHybrid]

Consider me back from V/LA, I'm going to stay up pretty late tonight and I have my friend's laptop access tomorrow. Thanks for the wait.

Also, I need some time to process this and figure out what to do.

[DemonHybrid]

No, I'm not the gunsmith.

Also, did some thinking and I think I know what's going on here.

Honestly, Nacho, personally, I feel like you might be twisting RC's argument around. If he got a role PM for VT, why WOULDN'T he assume that he was redirected? I personally see no difference unless there was a conflict of information.

Also, if I was the gunsmith, I would have claimed yesterday when everyone was asking for it as well as counterclaimed RC instead of needing to process his post. Withholding that information is extremely anti-town and there's no point to it. Asking me if I'm the gunsmith is grasping at loose straws here.

I'm pretty confident that this is all a cop-out from you and that you're flailing a bit in your defense. Unless someone else counterclaims RC, I'm pretty sure I believe him and that you're throwing around poorly placed words around as a legitimate argument.

Vote: Nachomamma8

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: A conflict of information meaning that there are two different scenarios at play here. This is all the same scenario, but worded differently.

[DemonHybrid]

OH YEAH

[DemonHybrid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCJELEDK ... re=related

[DemonHybrid]

Socrates and VV were the gunsmith.

You guys forgot that you can vanillize and kill in the same night

[DemonHybrid]

Yeah, Red was our saving grace, god bless him

[DemonHybrid]

I just want to thank everyone for taking me on quite the ride the past few weeks. This game has definitely been one of the best, and I hope to play with you guys more often in the future =)

Town played well. It's really hard to go through with lynches sometimes.