Scummies Invitational (OVER!!!)

[Kinetic]

Hai, I found the game. Yay.

[Kinetic]

Hai, I found the game. Yay.

Describe your process of finding the thread. Did you think it was still being set up? (yes it's a serious question)

My process was simple. My role PM didn't have a link, and after scanning the forums I couldn't find it. I decided that I'd wait for a prod and hope a link was in there. The prod instead told me what forum to look in, and actually I checked a different thread at first which seemed similar before finding this one. I didn't think it was still being set up (or at least I figured it would start soon), but as I was preparing to head out of town I didn't give it more than a cursory try.

Alright, I saw Hoopla's question and the theme guy within me immediately stated to myself "Its a Trap!", so instead to help me catch up and get into the game I'm going to post what I know/suspect of each player from a meta stance.

Hoopla: Can't remember much, doesn't stick out. I do remember some games that I'm pretty sure this player was in with me, but I don't remember them having an impact in them (unless you count the impact with the floor upon their demise).

Kmd4390: I think I know more of this player from reading them out of mafia games than in them. I seem to remember a personality that can get stubborn, but not the context for which I have this opinion.

SpyreX: Cool guy, remember modding him a bunch and playing with a couple times. Enjoy what he has to say and what he brings to the game. Will be sad if he is scum and I have to kill him.

imaginality: Who you be?

Ojanen: See above.

vollkan: I remember some things from some games. If I do remember correctly this kid can be dangerous to scum with some well placed and pointed questions. People who avoid these questions or try to evade him should be removed from the game swiftly.

Empking: More of a distraction in any game I've played. Scum leaves him around if he's town, and if he's scum he uses that meta to stay alive longer. Since we have multiple lynches I feel he should be removed from the game so he doesn't become a distraction as town or slip by as scum.

Vote:Empking

curiouskarmadog: I remember him, but not much on context. He doesn't stick out as an effective scum hunter though.

Kinetic: You're awesome Theme Crusher (although I have no official title right now). I'm most effective in complicated set ups and with strong roles, and least effective when playing scum over an extended period of time, especially in early games. My best games are long-term town plays where I can dissect a set-up. My best scum plays, on the other hand, are short and mostly near end game. I've won two scummies (both in the same year), one for Exceptional town play over the 08 year (in particular for accomplishments in Raj's Freaktown and Tar's Babylon 5 games), and one for Replacing into a scum position and turning the game around for scum in end game. However it has been a while since I've really gotten into a game (save MS4), so my play style has likely changed since then. I also like talking about myself.

Incognito: Never played with this person, only know his name since he was mentioned during New Jersey meet-ups that I planned on attending (but ultimately had to pull out of).

q21: Hmm curious name. I do have some recollection of this person but I have equal recollections or someone who is mildly effective and at the same time can be useless. Will give benefit of doubt for now.

Slicey: I remember the name, some of the context as well. I don't remember a particularly effective person, but at the very least I do remember him using a decent power for some reason. I'll have to think about it, but something about him gives me pause. In this case I'm trying to decide if I think he is useless or just neutral though.

mykonian: Can't remember context at all, but the name sticks out. I remember a decent scum hunter if memory serves and a strong player. Definitely not on my lynch N1 list.

Tenchi: Only experience I can remember of him I wasn't impressed. Will use this game to gauge him most likely.

populartajo: Pop is cool, Pop is a strong player, I enjoy saying Pop. Big Poppa Pump (your new nickname for this game) will be pumping out the analysis and the votes. He's on my list with SpyreX of people I would be sad if they were scum.

[Kinetic]

I decided that I'd wait for a prod

and hope a link was in there.

Ok, I thought I might give you some townpoints for something but the process didn't indicate that way. Also, I know you have purchased Starcraft 2 but damn that's lazy and non-proactive.

It wasn't lazy, it was efficient. There is a difference. Why spend a ton of time uselessly searching and maybe finding it in time for RVS or just wait and get a shout when that was over anyway.

Your wall was useless. None of it had anything to do with anything alignment-related this game and most of it was vague.

No, not useless. I'm getting the meta out of the way now, and if I were to make meta arguments later without justification you can use these to impeach me.

mykonian: Can't remember context at all, but the name sticks out. I remember a decent scum hunter if memory serves and a strong player. Definitely not on my lynch N1 list.

D1 scumcatching should be only limited to weaker players then in your opinion? Do you find D1 to be semi-random bs?
(I assume N1 was meant to be D1).

Day 1 is notorious for hitting players who make minor mistakes and it blows them out of proportion. If a wave forms, its best not to try and break it, but ideally I'd want to eliminate players I feel would be a problem late game if left in the game. As scum that means I target strong town players at night, as town it means I want to remove useless and lurk players if possible. Rarely does that work out, but its my hope. This, of course, doesn't include games that start with a Night. Additionally I feel this rule set works itself well to eliminating riffraff as we can do that a few times and maybe get an actual lynch idea without losing too much to a night phase.

[Kinetic]

[...] so far you give the impression of pretty much treating the whole D1 as RVS.

Interesting overarching statement. That isn't how I feel but thank you for assigning that sentiment to me, I'm sure later in the game when you're looking for ways to lynch me you'll have no trouble finding it again. (If you didn't guess, this means I think that your way of thinking is more akin to scum in this situation).

No, not useless. I'm getting the meta out of the way now, and if I were to make meta arguments later without justification you can use these to impeach me.

The problem with your meta was that it was presented so vague and seemed so vague to yourself too. All those words to say that SpyreX and tajo are cool guys, they and vollkan and myko are good players, you want to policy lynch Empking, Tenchi is a weaker player in your opinion as is ckd in scumhunting and 7 are quite neutral/do not know. Some of it didn't really resonate with this game either - no-impact Hoopla for instance is a contrast to this game.

Well I'm glad you can dismiss everything so quickly. That's generally not a stance I take, but we will see how it works for you.

Since your last paragraph touched upon it, how many lynches do you currently think would be ideal for D1 here?

Right now I think Empking + 1 would be ideal. If we don't lynch Empking I'm ok with only a single lynch.

[Kinetic]

[...] so far you give the impression of pretty much treating the whole D1 as RVS.

Interesting overarching statement. That isn't how I feel but thank you for assigning that sentiment to me, I'm sure later in the game when you're looking for ways to lynch me you'll have no trouble finding it again. (If you didn't guess, this means I think that your way of thinking is more akin to scum in this situation).

[...]Could you explain why my thought process is scummy to you? I'm interested in getting more familiar with your way of thinking so that I can decide whether I'm interested in lynching you for myself, thank you very much.

Not all your thinking, just your rationalization in this particular argument. I find that when players start overreaching on their facts (in this case you even admit to it, which is a town tell). Its one of the little tells that I note that people make when they're trying to make a case stronger without actually having the facts back up how strong they feel the case is.

Its a little thing, but if you were to make a case in the future and then used said fact as "evidence" it would be even more absurdly scummy. Right now I find it mildly so.

[Kinetic]

guys, before we lynch anyone, please let them post... (Q21, Kinetic)

What?

[Kinetic]

Hey guys, just got back in, need to catch back up and then I'll post here as well. I can see already it looks like Incog has a hard on for me. Nice to know, I'll figure out why, respond, and more likely before the end of the night.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, all right.
Just two more questions today: what was your motive in telling me now what you would use catch me later if I was scum?
and: does this line of thinking apply to mykonian vs. ckd in one way or another in your opinion?

I'm afraid explaining to you my exact motive will defeat the purpose of what I am attempting to do. You'll just have to accept that I have a motive at this time, and maybe later if it becomes relevant I will explain in more detail.

I'll need to re-read Myk v ckd to be sure, but I don't know either way. I would doubt it, however.

I do not know why you would counter Incognito's argument of using the surveys as a distraction topic by countering with this comedic roleplay that you, as scum, would tell your scum buddies about your plan just to make Incognito's idea less plausible. I do not think this counter-argument from you makes his point less plausible.

Incognito's argument raised a legitimate issue, but one that was ultimately impossible to rule one way or the other on (ie. it's obvious that a survey could be used maliciously by scum, but it makes no sense to assume that). Hoopla cannot make Incognito's argument significantly less plausible, because Incognito raised an unfalsifiable possibility. But what Hoopla did do was show that the scum-logic that Incognito's argument required is fairly tortuous - "Mwahaha, I will confound them with five simple questions" could only come from fairly incompetent scum. The argument was expressed unorthodoxly (ie roleplay), but if you were examining it properly rather than deriding it because of its form, the point is clear and, I think, strong.

Holy Hell, that read just like one of the pre-law case summaries I've been reading. I have an immense amount of respect for you right now, and a strong lingering suspicion that if you're scum its going to be hard to catch.

I haven't liked a thing Kinetic has written so far. His first "real" post seems like a whole lot of noise since it's merely a summary of all of his experiences with all of the players. He describes it as getting his meta experience out of the way just in case he needs to call on it later, but I'm not sure I buy that explanation - it's not like Kinetic went into elaborate detail about each and every person he's played with so far; he kept things pretty vague, imo. He's didn't bother to comment on a thing that's happened here so far in that post, and he certainly hasn't seemed to do so in his subsequent posts either. And I reeeeeeeeeeally don't like the policy lynch vote on Empking - I disagree completely that Empking will become a "distraction as town" - it's not like we're completely unable to prod and probe the guy and ask him questions about his stances - and slipping by as scum? How exactly would that happen?

vote: Kinetic

I kept details vague since I'm the type of person that doesn't keep too many notes on players. For the most part it was just memory and I suppose it was more a post for myself to get into the game and wrap my head around the players. I posted it here, take it for what you will.

I didn't comment on anything because for the most part I do hate most Day 1 "battles". They seem so useless, and rarely provide much information until day 2 or 3 when we have other information to compare them with.

As for Empking: In every game I've played with him and a few that I merely observed I have never been a fan of his play style. It has always rubbed me the wrong way and I've seen more than a couple instances where even when he was town he ended up being a detriment. Has this happened in every game? No, I haven't read everyone so I can't attest to that, and I'm sure he's had games where he was good. However, I am all for lynching him right now and getting him out of the way, especially since the type of game this is leads to it not losing a lynch.

If other people want to protect him and stop that from happening (like you), go ahead, I'm not going to think its too scummy. But if he does end up being scum when we eventually lynch him (because I do think its inevitable that he will be lynched even if its not today) then I'm going to look very hard on you.

As for specifically "slipping by as scum" I refer to that tactic used where someone doesn't give a lot of information and is constantly passed by for lynch toward other "more urgent" lynches until we're in end game, with very little information. There a mislynch can be fatal and time and again I've seen players unwilling to lynch someone who has lurked at that point, ESPECIALLY someone with a reputation of such play. It becomes worse when that player is town since scum can push that lynch and look completely town doing it. Its not the only situation where he can become a liability, but it is one that sticks out in my head as having happened to me, both as town and scum.

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours. I had a slight scum read on you for the ckd case that I disagree with (as stated with my vote) and was looking for a way to either strengthen or weaken that. The knee-jerk OMGUS vote strengthens it.

unvote vote Q21

I call bullshit.

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours. I had a slight scum read on you for the ckd case that I disagree with (as stated with my vote) and was looking for a way to either strengthen or weaken that.

The knee-jerk OMGUS vote strengthens it.

This post by q21 is scummy.
The description of mykonian's instant no explanation vote as knee-jerk omgus assumes mykonian to be an idiot barely able to control his actions at all. That is not an accurate nor a townish assumption. mykonian was obviously looking for a reaction in a way that has some chance of having effect, (or pretending to do so if he was scum), contrary to q21's "hi this vote is because I want to see a reaction" (whether he would have been looking for a reaction from tajo or myko, saying that one is looking for a reaction pretty much collapses the wave).
Labeling the reaction as knee-jerk omgus is hitting an easy buzzword that only someone thinking of the game very shallowly would use in this instance. I find it hard to believe q21 is sincere about scumhunting here.

unvote
vote: q21

:goodposting:

I dont like Kinetic voting for Empking (seems a lazy choice for a player of his kind) and entering the game with a wall of useless banter

It is a bit of a lazy choice, I suppose that is true. But I still feel like I'd rather lynch him and be done with it than deal with his play style or what he might do in the game. I'll admit, he isn't as bad as some players (zwet and BattleMage come to mind instantly, and if either were in the game I'd be for lynching them too), but he isn't on my list of players I'd jump into a game with if I had the choice. And maybe if this game was slightly different I wouldn't be lazy with my vote on him, but with the option of multiple lynches per day I'm OK with using one to remove someone who could be an all game distraction.

Empking: More of a distraction in any game I've played. Scum leaves him around if he's town, and if he's scum he uses that meta to stay alive longer. Since we have multiple lynches I feel he should be removed from the game so he doesn't become a distraction as town or slip by as scum. Vote:Empking

This is just stupid. For starters, it's policy lynching somebody based on what they might do; he's assuming Empking wil become a distraction. Second, in this particular game there is very likely a reduced likelihood of Empking's playstyle being distracting, because there aren't newbies to get confused by it.

Its policy lynching based on my experience with this player. All this great defense of Empking makes me start to wonder why. Show me a game where he has been a great benefit to the town. Maybe I've missed something, but I don't remember him being such a good player as to warrant this. I'm going to do some meta checking, be right back.

Based solely on completed games:
Empking lynches townie in endgame as town. July 27
Empking lynches townie in endgame as town. July 26
Empking lynched Day 3. Not exactly sure why, so I've drawn no conclusions from this. July 10
Empking wins, near endgame (5 players) by lynching BattleMage(lol). June 30
Empking slips by as scum. Wins. June 11
Lynched Day 4 after, (lol) miller13 D1, zwet D2, CJMiller D3. Don't know the reasons, but I'll admit those are players I'd lynch before Empking as a policy too, lolol. Don't know if his lynch was policy in this game, but wouldn't doubt it. Lynched Oct 13, 09

I went down the list and looked at the most recently finished games with Empking as a player. I do not believe I missed any, but here is my evidence. I'm pretty sure it backs up my case, but you are welcome to draw your own conclusions.

At this point I'm ok with lynching Q21 as well today, but after looking at his recent game history I'm more set than ever in lynching Empking as well.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, what I don't understand is, is that you keep talking about how bad Empking is in other games and how much of a liability he is, yet you're not commenting on him in THIS game, which is what actually matters. Empking has made enough posts that you can comment on, whether you think it's townie posts or scummy posts, yet you have said nothing on him in this game. You're voting him and attacking him for nothing he's done in this game, but his meta and reputation alone.

For that, I will

Unvote, Vote: Kinetic

. I'm not liking anything he's saying.

I'll just

Mega FoS: KMD

Slicey, nice side-step.

Now I want you to say how my argument is actually wrong. You say you don't like the argument and you want him judged on other factors (principally the 5 posts he's made in this game) and ignore the many many many games he's played elsewhere on the site.

I suppose this may be a valid argument, however, it would be a lot stronger if for some reason my argument was flawed or that you could weaken my argument some.

As it stands the two are merely parallel arguments, neither really disproves or removes from the other, but I would say mine is stronger if only on the fact that Empking's contribution so far in this game is not very strong.

Generally I don't lynch on meta alone, however, its Day 1, in a game where multiple lynches are possible in a single day. This is the optimal position for a policy lynch based on his previous play and I endorse it.

Show me otherwise and we can talk, or show me that Empking's contributions here outweigh his previous very bad play. I don't feel you can or that he has so far.

Hell, Empking hasn't even stood up to defend himself, so far everyone else is. I'd love to hear what he thinks.

[...]135, Empking posts and completely ignores my post to him….how the fuck did you win a scummie?
[...]
148, Empking follows mykon…again.
[...]
[...]and the people who joined it for bad reason (empking).
[...]
169, Empking makes a horrible post.
[...]
172, Kinetic is cool with lynching q21 and defends Empking’s playstyle

WHAT!?!

[...]
My thoughts on scum at this point: Kinetic, Empking, and Pop (sorry bud, just got that mojo off of you) (if I had some money, I would lay down that there are 2-3 scum amongst this grouping.

Vote kinetic

Blue is mine.

First, if you think I'm defending Empking or his playstyle you are completely out of line.

Second, the main person I want out is in your "scum group" and yet you put me with them in that same group. Maybe if Emp comes up town you could make some sort of argument, but frankly you dislike him in this game for all the same reasons I dislike him since he does this in every game.

This vote reads completely disingenuous.

FOS:CKD

I support Empking, Q21 and CKD, in that order right now.

[Kinetic]

CKD: Explain to me how it wastes a lynch and your argument makes sense. Otherwise it falls on its face. This type of game is unique in that losing a lynch is not as big a set back as in a normal game.

Emp: Its not just B5, in fact, I don't remember specifics so that game didn't come up in my mind. Its the overwhelming evidence that even as town Empking is better dead and revealed than in the game. I've done the whole "this person is scummy, but I think they're town" bit before, and sometimes it works, but most of the times it bites me on the ass. This game gives a unique opportunity. We can remove a player that is, at best, a distraction, for the low low cost of -1 player slot. We don't lose a lynch, we may slightly lose balance and I assume this game is very well balanced, but it is of my opinion that it will help the town in the end.

[Kinetic]

If other people want to protect him and stop that from happening (like you), go ahead, I'm not going to think its

too

scummy. But if he does end up being scum when we eventually lynch him (because I do think its inevitable that he will be lynched even if its not today) then I'm going to look very hard on you.

This doesn't make sense. Breaking down your post into its two sentences:

If other people want to protect him and stop that from happening (like you), go ahead, I'm not going to think its

too

scummy.

From the above, you clearly don't think it is scummy for somebody to oppose an Empking policy lynch. It follows that you can see legitimate town reasons why somebody would oppose your position.

But if he does end up being scum when we eventually lynch him (because I do think its inevitable that he will be lynched even if its not today) then I'm going to look very hard on you.

Despite the above (ie that a townie could reasonably defend Empking), you are strongly suggesting that should Empking flip scum you would consider that a mark against any opponent of an Empking policy lynch.

You can't have it both ways. If defending Empking is objectively legitimate (and you admit that it is), then it is not a scumtell irrespective of which way Empking ultimately flips.

I bolded the word that is most important in my first sentence. I'm not looking for it both ways, I said I don't think its is TOO scummy, however I do think it is at least slightly scummy. And yes, should Empking flip scum I will take renewed interest in all those who opposed his lynch so heavily. I fail to find the inconsistency you are trying to point out in my argument.

Its policy lynching based on my experience with this player. All this great defense of Empking makes me start to wonder why. Show me a game where he has been a great benefit to the town. Maybe I've missed something, but I don't remember him being such a good player as to warrant this. I'm going to do some meta checking, be right back.

The question is not whether Empking is a great benefit to the town; it's whether he is likely to be such a detriment to the town that it is better that he be lynched. The difference between the two is that the way you framed it puts the onus on the rest of us to show why Empking should stay, when good policy dictates the burden of proof should fall onto you.

Empking lynches townie in endgame as town. July 27

I read Empking's last post in that game. His reasons for voting seemed satisfactory. I've seen (and done myself) far stupider things.

Empking lynches townie in endgame as town. July 26

Reasons seemed weak. Again, though, being a sub-par player hardly justifies policy lynching. (And the beauty of this setup is that the traditional argument for policy lynching early on doesn't apply so much; if Empking really does turn out to be a human trainwreck, we can lynch him later on and not sacrifice a day)

Empking lynched Day 3. Not exactly sure why, so I've drawn no conclusions from this. July 10
Empking wins, near endgame (5 players) by lynching BattleMage(lol). June 30
Empking slips by as scum. Wins. June 11
Lynched Day 4 after, (lol) miller13 D1, zwet D2, CJMiller D3. Don't know the reasons, but I'll admit those are players I'd lynch before Empking as a policy too, lolol. Don't know if his lynch was policy in this game, but wouldn't doubt it. Lynched Oct 13, 09

I checked the last of these, and it was a suspicion lynch.

Nothing you've provided proves any more, even taking it at its highest, than that Empking is mediocre. That's hardly a sound argument for a policy lynch.

These are his last 5 or so games on the site (the last being a game that recently ended but which he was removed from early), all happening within a very close period to each other. If I pulled deeper I'm sure the trend would continue based on my own experience with him. He is more than mediocre in his own ability, he compounds that by being very unresponsive, inability to listen to reason, generally lurky, and an overall hindrance. Is he the worst player I've ever played with? No. Is it enough that if possible, on a game where lynches are relatively cheap that if could get rid of him day 1 I would. Yes.

Now, I remember the specific instance as to a game I played with Empking, (the B5 one). In that game we were masons together, had an absurd amount of information on the set up, and I was able to break the game privately with him within 1 week of game time. His character was immortal as long as mine was alive. For nearly a week I tried to talk to him, get anything from him, and it was like pulling teeth. Additionally I wanted HIM to present the information since he would not be subject to the retaliation that I KNEW would come from the scum for breaking the game so heavily and he would soak up NKs.

Instead with deadline approaching and no response from him I was forced to come forward with my information. The LAST ditch effort to try and salvage something was I suggested we swap roles and I claim to be the immortal one and if pressured he claim to be my "Achilles Heel", so he could soak NKs and allow us to survive at least one additional day. What does he do? He pretty much full claims in thread.

It wasn't mediocre play in that instance, it was completely horrible play where if he would have listened, or participated we could have crushed the game. However, at best despite all I did to break the game I wa only able to succeed at a partial win.

Now this was nearly 2 years ago, but I have not seen in any game that he has become a better player.

I am NOT the only player in this game saying that. I am the only one willing to put my vote behind it.

Day 2+ are not the time for policy lynches. If it is not done today, I will not support it on policy grounds.

I suppose this may be a valid argument, however, it would be a lot stronger if for some reason my argument was flawed or that you could weaken my argument some.

The

argument

assertion you made was that Empking was a massive liability and literally better off dead. It's hard to 'refute' that without doing an entire meta on Empking. Drawing on my point above, you should be the one to present evidence for him being scummy, which you hadn't done in your initial point (and the subsequent 'evidence' you did present was, as I said above, very weak)

Besides one game where Incognito says Empking wasn't a complete disaster, I haven't heard anyone at least provide something that will show otherwise. I'm not asking for a complete meta, and yes I know my evidence was weak. But it wasn't intended to be the entire end all be all, and I have been open to the possibility that if someone provides proof that there is at least the chance of him being useful I'll back off.

So far the most common defense is that "policy lynching" is bad, which is more of a general defense then specifically "policy lynching Empking is bad".

CKD: Explain to me how it wastes a lynch and your argument makes sense. Otherwise it falls on its face. This type of game is unique in that losing a lynch is not as big a set back as in a normal game.

That's not the point. Lynching a player without good reason is just bad policy, for obvious reasons.

[/quote]

In that argument it WAS the point.

Because you are right that he does hurt the town...but I am not going to waste a lynch based on a policy of me not liking him in game

CKD's argument was: It wastes a lynch, so its bad.

Explain to me how it wastes a lynch and your argument makes sense. Otherwise it falls on its face. This type of game is unique in that losing a lynch is not as big a set back as in a normal game.

My argument: How does it waste a lynch? If you can't prove it wastes a lynch, and otherwise you would support it (which based on that argument it seems he would), you should not be against it if it does not waste a lynch.

That's not the point.

Your Rebuttle: Its still bad.

I believe you missed the point of that particular exchange, not me. I was merely pointing out that CKD's reasoning in that specific instance was flawed because of the nature of this game.

[Kinetic]

Can I just confirm that the answer to my question on whether anyone made an overreach comparable to your perception of mine was negative in myko vs. ckd?

Maybe its the alcohol but I'm having trouble deciphering this. Can you re-phrase it in English please?

[Kinetic]

So... many negatives and double negatives... I'll re-read ckd/myko in a bit and see if I can find what you're looking for.

[Kinetic]

@Kinetic:

I understand what you're saying with regard to your stance on Empking and how, because this mechanic allows for multiple lynches, we can probably afford a policy lynch if needed. But if that's really the case, why do I get the feeling that you seem content with just having a single lynch Today despite working the whole "this mechanic favors policy lynches" into your reason(s) for wanting to lynch him? Am I wrong about that?

If you got that impression I apologize, that wasn't quite my intent, although I suppose its not completely wrong either.

My stance is best like this: I'd prefer 1-2 lynches, based on some factors. While 1 lynch would likely be preferable on Day 1, if there is a policy lynch a second lynch would not be a bad idea. I do not have a set stance on if we need to do 2 lynches or one in that case, but either way I'm trying to make my feelings known outside of Empking and to keep in the game.

At this point I support Q21 and CKD as lynch candidates whether or not we have a policy lynch.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic's stance in 186 that policy-lynching on D2 or later is bad is already destroyed by vollkan's point in the post above: this set-up creates the opportunity to policy-lynch later than usual

I completely disagree with both Voll's assertion and your belief that its a good idea to policy lynch later in game. It has nothing to do with the fact that we CAN do multiple lynches, but everything to do with the demeanor of the game. Day 1 there is rarely a lot of information, we need to lynch someone, and with this game, we can lynch multiple someones, making Day 1 in particular ideal for a policy lynch since we can take care of that and proceed with another lynch should there be enough support.

However, once we pass Day 1 we have a lot more information to work with, more urgent concerns, and the ability to question players based more on game knowledge then anything else. At that point using Meta to do anything but support a case is extraordinarily scummy in my book.

If we are going to policy lynch, it happens Day 1. Bringing up a policy lynch after that is not even CLOSE to a town move. Its distracting, doesn't rely on in-game reasoning (and thus perfect for scum), and is something that should and CAN be taken care of much in advance. In most other situations these charges would be perfectly fair to level against me for pushing this, and for the most part they are accurate. I assert that the nature of Day 1 and the multiple lynches in this game, however, provide ample reason to push on despite those points.

Saying "we can do it later" is akin to saying "Well if I'm scum I can hold off on this now and then when I need a distraction or mislynch later I'll bring up these policy points." No. Absolutely not.

You are either on board NOW or you give up all right to policy lynch after Day 1. I will relentlessly tunnel and try and lynch anyone who tries to pull a policy lynch after today for ANY reason save perhaps LAL if they can be proven to have lied (which really isn't a policy lynch in my opinion but some might argue otherwise).

[Kinetic]

unvote; vote q21

I don't have much time right now so I can't respond to everything directly.

Something is tweaking me about imaginality's posts, I'll need to re-read them sooner or later.

Deadline is approaching, and since I will be moving on that day (and semi VLA from now until about the 11th) I want to move my vote in order to assist with what I feel is a good lynch. I still think we should get Empking down, but I don't believe the support is there and at this point I think everything has been said and re-said.

Anyway, my vote is there, I will be at least keeping up by reading during the next couple days so I'll be able to move my vote, but don't expect too much participation until I'm settled in at my new apartment.

[Kinetic]

Don't have much time, q21 lost steam and don't have much of a back up lynch at this time. I can't read right now to find something until at least the 11th, but I'm getting mixed feelings about Pop and Imagine right now. However, neither have votes on them right now. I'm going to place mine on imaginality right now just to see if there is anyone else seeing what I see, but I'll try to be around to change it to get a lynch if needed.

unvote; vote: imaginality

[Kinetic]

If anyone is going to claim I'm scum based on mine inability to be here right now, I suggest you look at my tag (its my birthday today) and my posts pretty much everywhere about how I'm going to law school and moving on the 10th (my reasons for why I pulled out of the NJ Meetup), all things that have been planned for months now. Its shitty timing, and while I understand deadline is looming I'd appreciate a chance to defend myself when I get back if you are seriously thinking of trying to lynch me.

[Kinetic]

blah blah blah

Not much time, but scum shows itself.

unvote;vote: Incog

Despite being called on "stalling the day" by q21, I've got the most connections that can be drawn from my conversations with other players. You've got Voll/Incog going strong on me, and you've got me going strong on Emp. Love how Incog knows he's taking the easy way out here with a vote on me + has already stated a "He is town if Emp is scum."

Feeling strong town on Myk now, SpyreX I'm unsure about but neutral for now.

Emp needs to die, regardless of alignment.

What else is there to say? You know I'll be around during the next day to be able to talk, but this run up reeks of "we need a fast lynch that we can be hands off of, and Kinetic can't really defend himself right now anyway." If I do end up dying either by lynch of Q21 shooting me look hard at the first 5 on my wagon. There is at least two scum there IMO.

[Kinetic]

You're right a lot of my time was wasted on the policy lynch.... mainly because you and Voll required me to explain and explain why I felt the policy lynch was justified. Instead of just accepting that was how I felt and moving on you continually attacked and forced me to place my attention there and defending myself instead of elsewhere. The best part? The person I was attacking was allowed to step away from all of that virtually scot free because of it. He wasn't required to defend himself or to answer any of the charges I brought up. You successfully defended Empking, and if he comes up scum or you come up scum I definitely see a strong connection there.

You feel 3 you was "coming near the top" so you needed to bump mine to 5. Riiiiight. Even if you weren't the second highest case with my vote I wouldn't vote you if I didn't feel strongly enough that you were scum at this point. As with my imaginality or Emp vote I'd prefer to start a new wagon on someone I feel strongly enough about instead of push someone I didn't feel strong enough about just because they had the most votes. Hell you "claim" this sin't the easy way out, yet your third point SCREAMS easy way out.

Those three points you just brought up ring very hollow.

[Kinetic]

Wow that second paragraph sounds weird.... "You feel at 3 votes you were" sounds better and was the point I was trying to make.

[Kinetic]

Please, claim or die. Its claim and die anyway. I'm vanilla. If I had any information on the set up I'd have been using it already. I've got nothing though so I'm doing the best with what little I have.

[Kinetic]

LOL, OMG YOU ARE SO FUNNY POP HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA WHEN DID YOU GET SO FUNNY!!!!!!!.

Shit, sorry, the sarcasm button got stuck. Was that really necessary? Its obvious I'm going to get lynched, what did that little jab accomplish other than making you look like a jerk?

Just lynch me already, find out you're wrong and than take out the scum on my early wagon. Frankly most of this wagon reeks of scum, but obviously I'm the only one who notices.

[Kinetic]

LOL, OMG YOU ARE SO FUNNY POP HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA WHEN DID YOU GET SO FUNNY!!!!!!!.

Shit, sorry, the sarcasm button got stuck. Was that really necessary? Its obvious I'm going to get lynched, what did that little jab accomplish other than making you look like a jerk?

Just lynch me already, find out you're wrong and than take out the scum on my early wagon. Frankly most of this wagon reeks of scum, but obviously I'm the only one who notices.

Who are these scum you talk about on your wagon?

You see? At this point Id expect Kinetic town to leave us with the obvscum in his wagon so we can honor his necessary death.

Please die accordingly.

I've named who I said I don't like. Empking is obvious, but he's so annoying to read its hard to say if he's scum or just bad.

I am tweaked by imaginality but don't have time to figure out exactly why. Incog is acting shady, and of Slicey/Emp/Incog/Voll I'm thinking at least 2 are scum and I wouldn't be so surprised if Q21 is an SK. But really, I have no time to read. My computer is packed up, I'm on my meh laptop and really don't have much time. I'm TRYING to do SOMETHING since its obvious that I'm going to be lynched, and you're absolutely right, if I had the time and knew I'd be lynched I would be throwing open the game and finding you the scum from my death. But there is NO WAY I'm having that time today, and since I won't even have internet in my new place until after deadline this is likely to be my last post.

What do you want from me? Kill me already and realize how wrong you are.

[Kinetic]

I don't have any in depth reads right now. I had some things on ckd and maybe I could find why if I looked, but I don't. I really can't give you much more than I already have, I just don't have it.

[Kinetic]

Driving. Mod pls count this.

unv;v:kin

if votes don't reset you now have enough time to QL incognito or wagon emp. Q21, please kill one of them or imaginality after my flip. Leave it in your hands.

[Kinetic]

Incognito you have the worst scumdar ever, lol.

[Kinetic]

lol, I saw the deadline approaching, I knew that there was not likely going to be time for a second lynch unless I was offed fast and it didn't look like anyone else was going to be brought close to me. I made the choice that it was better to see the reactions to my hammer and possibly another quick lynch than it was to try and preserve myself. If there were other factors involved (I wasn't vanilla, the day ended with my lynch, there was another wagon that was close enough to matter [there were already several people calling my hammer], or even if I had more time to try and do something [or had the time to do it]), but all of that was stacked against me. The hammer provided more information there than anything else I could have done.

And I was dead on with Empking, his death always helps . And I was also right that my lynch being scum filled. I feel pretty good overall, even if my play wasn't perfect.

Good play by q21 as well.