Scummies Invitational (OVER!!!)

[Ojanen]

No I didn't. I managed to not find the thread for several days despite looking in this subforum. Just came back again to check. Go figure.

1. Have you played in a Lights Out game before?

I assume this means the multiple-lynching mechanic. Nope. I skimmed some of the Roccisi game with the mechanic while it was ongoing though, the one with Adel leading seven or so D1 lynches.

2. I give you $200 to place a bet on the first Day 1 lynch, with return odds of 15/1 for each player. Who do you bet on?

Slicey. People are often reluctant to actually follow through with the classic policy lynchings of the Empkings.

3. What do you think is the optimum number of lynches for Day 1?

It depends whether I get good reads/convinced about scum. 1-2 seems reasonable. Hoopla's commentary seemed reasonable, but I haven't thought about this closely yet.

5. Sum up your playstyle in one sentence.

For someone with my persona, mafia is an interesting exercise in overcompensation and rolling from aggressive to uselessly cautious and sympathetic and back depending on confidence/accuracy of reads in recent games.

Because, if you're scum, your survey seems like a nice little tactic to clog the thread with noise. I've seen Adel use something similar in at least two of his past scum games, I know he's a player you respect, and so I didn't want to go along the route you wanted me to take just in case this was that kind of tactic.
Will you be answering your own survey? Will you be illuminating us with your insight on people's alignments once answers are received?

Disingenious and a bit overly paranoid in tone; as if acting. Time will tell if just RVS mood but minus.

oh god being in two games with Patrick being the mod is going to be confusing. @_@

You're playing with different people. Why would this be a problem?

Noise from Tenchi, specifically asking a question for the sake of asking a question.

5. Sum up your playstyle in one sentence. I find myself not sticking to one singular playstyle.

Overtly self-unaware answer. Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over.

ckd collects some micro-non-mafia points for mixing this up with an /in-vitational. I assume scum have nighttalk and mod wrote nighttalkers could talk pre-game. It's somewhat more likely that Scummies invitational would be mentioned passingly than not and scum would be aware of reputations.

5. Sum up your playstyle in one sentence.
Depends on the game but Im a logical town/scum hunter.

I haven't played with you since last fall but I don't think you've been around for a while either. When did you change from a very dominant vibe guy to someone using dominantly logic?

vote: Tenchi

[Ojanen]

You're ever 'convinced about scum' on Day 1?

I mostly replace into games so haven't played many D1s. I have been convinced and right of scum on D1 at least on one occasion off the top of my head.
The best town game I've played featured 5 deaths out of 20 players before D2, several of them very scummy but all town, which was wonderfully informative PoE. I'm not advocating a similar percentage of eliminations here (got good reads but game was a tough fight) but I'm open to more than 1 lynch depending on how the day develops.

5. Sum up your playstyle in one sentence.

For someone with my persona, mafia is an interesting exercise in overcompensation and rolling from aggressive to uselessly cautious and sympathetic and back depending on confidence/accuracy of reads in recent games.

So how have you're reads in recent games been? How can we expect you to play in this game?

I haven't played for 2 months. I hope that has nullified my game a little. It was a steady decline before that for a while.
It's not an indefinite answer, it's natural for someone who really dislikes mobs and plays the middleman peacebuilder role in real life, which is just mostly not effective in mafia; that's why I referred to overcompensation. Too wimpy/right is useless. aggressive/wrong gets harmful. Self-adjustment and gravitation to out-of-game persona forms the pattern I described.
Aggressive/insightful is the ideal obv.

she/her, btw.

q21, did you find the other answerers were more restricting of themselves in a game-relevant way?

5. Semi-lurky with irregular flashes of logic, intellect, incisive questioning and decisive action

At best, calm and cheerful, with occasional flashes of insight and humour

5. Participate more as the game goes on.

Thread needs more Slicey btw. His playstyle description was an excuse before anyone asked for one.

[Ojanen]

Hai, I found the game. Yay.

Describe your process of finding the thread. Did you think it was still being set up? (yes it's a serious question)

[Ojanen]

I decided that I'd wait for a prod

and hope a link was in there.

Ok, I thought I might give you some townpoints for something but the process didn't indicate that way. Also, I know you have purchased Starcraft 2 but damn that's lazy and non-proactive.

Your wall was useless. None of it had anything to do with anything alignment-related this game and most of it was vague.

mykonian: Can't remember context at all, but the name sticks out. I remember a decent scum hunter if memory serves and a strong player. Definitely not on my lynch N1 list.

D1 scumcatching should be only limited to weaker players then in your opinion? Do you find D1 to be semi-random bs?
(I assume N1 was meant to be D1).

---
From surface I'm not impressed with the ckd case but let me read the interaction better in a sec.

[Ojanen]

well if there is going to be a lynch Day 1, it might as well be mine, you are going to be embarassed at the end of it, mykonian, curious what was your scummie for?

This is a weird response and a bit scummy. Pointless venting attempt at intimidation/insult or something, and the earlyness of it throws me off.

Otherwise, this

ckd collects some micro-non-mafia points for mixing this up with an /in-vitational. I assume scum have nighttalk and mod wrote nighttalkers could talk pre-game. It's somewhat more likely that Scummies invitational would be mentioned passingly than not and scum would be aware of reputations.

is still more valid than myko's case in my mind.
ckd's "myko isn't scumhunting" thing obviously referred to the whole policy lynch line by myko, even though it was exaggeratingly repeated. ckd's been passive but meh.

[Ojanen]

It wasn't lazy, it was efficient. There is a difference. Why spend a ton of time uselessly searching and maybe finding it in time for RVS or just wait and get a shout when that was over anyway.

"Where is the game thread?" pm to mod is 5 words of ton of time and effort...
Anyway, this line should be dropped, it's unlikely to get anywhere and from so far you give the impression of pretty much treating the whole D1 as RVS.

No, not useless. I'm getting the meta out of the way now, and if I were to make meta arguments later without justification you can use these to impeach me.

The problem with your meta was that it was presented so vague and seemed so vague to yourself too. All those words to say that SpyreX and tajo are cool guys, they and vollkan and myko are good players, you want to policy lynch Empking, Tenchi is a weaker player in your opinion as is ckd in scumhunting and 7 are quite neutral/do not know. Some of it didn't really resonate with this game either - no-impact Hoopla for instance is a contrast to this game.

Since your last paragraph touched upon it, how many lynches do you currently think would be ideal for D1 here?

And how hypocritic for you to say something similar to what I have said?

You said "I change playstyles".
I gave the extremes of one relevant parameter that defines play markedly, within which I fluctuate a lot and explained the inner process clearly as I perceive it. Imo there's a difference.

[Ojanen]

I defined the psychology behind it. I gave the reasons for which I think I play as I do. I cannot always control but I observe.

[Ojanen]

[...] so far you give the impression of pretty much treating the whole D1 as RVS.

Interesting overarching statement. That isn't how I feel but thank you for assigning that sentiment to me, I'm sure later in the game when you're looking for ways to lynch me you'll have no trouble finding it again. (If you didn't guess, this means I think that your way of thinking is more akin to scum in this situation).

When I look at it I can see how I was exaggerating in some aspects. But I was thinking of your description of an approach that seemed to apply almost purely meta on D1 (before this post). You explained you want to remove weak players first and didn't find it wise to disturb bandwagons that otherwise form. (post 111, last paragraph)
Could you explain why my thought process is scummy to you? I'm interested in getting more familiar with your way of thinking so that I can decide whether I'm interested in lynching you for myself, thank you very much.

[Ojanen]

Kinetic, all right.
Just two more questions today: what was your motive in telling me now what you would use catch me later if I was scum?
and: does this line of thinking apply to mykonian vs. ckd in one way or another in your opinion?

[Ojanen]

would you mind if I answered the last question? (if it is your point to show I'm not playing "fair")

That wasn't my point. I'm interested in Kinetic's position for an application of his mindset to grasp him better and I don't find myko vs. ckd black&white. I don't necessarily agree with his tell since my own observation as scum has been that staying consciously extremely reasonable is a nice shield. Of course you can answer anyway if you want.

[Ojanen]

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours. I had a slight scum read on you for the ckd case that I disagree with (as stated with my vote) and was looking for a way to either strengthen or weaken that.

The knee-jerk OMGUS vote strengthens it.

This post by q21 is scummy.
The description of mykonian's instant no explanation vote as knee-jerk omgus assumes mykonian to be an idiot barely able to control his actions at all. That is not an accurate nor a townish assumption. mykonian was obviously looking for a reaction in a way that has some chance of having effect, (or pretending to do so if he was scum), contrary to q21's "hi this vote is because I want to see a reaction" (whether he would have been looking for a reaction from tajo or myko, saying that one is looking for a reaction pretty much collapses the wave).
Labeling the reaction as knee-jerk omgus is hitting an easy buzzword that only someone thinking of the game very shallowly would use in this instance. I find it hard to believe q21 is sincere about scumhunting here.

unvote
vote: q21

[Ojanen]

And by collapsing the wave I mean it nullifies the reaction by making it deliberate.
Yeah, that's more concisely what I mean, q21 presenting myko's vote as not deliberate.

[Ojanen]

I didn't assumed you were a fool, I did exactly the opposite. I know you aren't a fool, I know that you're logical and intelligent and when you need to be you're manipulative.

I knew that to get a genuine response out of you (rather than one made calmly and couched in all sorts of logic and whatnot) I had to do something you really weren't expecting

.

What made me call your vote OMGUS was not just the post in which you voted but also the supposed explanation that followed. See, unlike most, you didn't give your reasons for voting me when you voted me, you gave your reasons for voting me when you unvoted me. The impression that gives me is that your vote was a genuine reaction which you try to justify after the fact in 139, so you can say that you had a reason, just before jumping your vote back onto a wagon you feel safe on.

The underlined: wait, what on earth exactly did you do he didn't expect? That runs exactly counter to your motive of explaining your reaction vote at the time of its casting.

The second paragraph describes the sequence of actions in this way if myko was scum:

q21

: vote myko for reactions

myko

:

oh snap! he's threatening me!

reflex unexplained omgus vote q21!

myko

35 minutes later:

oh no! I was barely conscious of what I was doing! I didn't even write reasons! I'll make up an explanation about reactions from q21's original vote matching a flaw in it.

unvote return to hard-written case

The narrative is ridiculous and incompatible with q21 believing myko to be smart and all that.

I'll respond to the other stuff in a sec.

[Ojanen]

Ive always been a dominant logic guy. Gut is just an extension of subjective logic. Why did you think I was not a logical guy?

Ah, we have different definitions of gut - I say gut as an extension to the area where either "case"logic doesn't reach or then it would reach but one hasn't analyzed the feeling through introspection.
I didn't have the impression you were not a logical guy. Rather that you were reasonably logical underwater while having a style of reading people that made you write the word "feeling" often, using that area to judge people, e.g. typically looking at dead scum's listings of all people and assigning town/scumfeels based on the tone etc.
I can search the archive for examples if you're actually further interested in this. I've played with you thrice as far as I remember.

How is Tenchi's anwer different to what you posted about your playstyle, besides the choice of words?

I have already answered to this, iso me. Repeating it in other words, by stating reasons I gave a profile for my character. Meta=personality etc.
Since 3 outsiders have commented disagreeing with there being a meaningful distinction, I acknowledge to the outside the difference does apparently not seem significant. I'll confess that while writing my first post it came even to my mind that I was having some trouble writing something actually meaningful about my playstyle in one sentence. I copied Hoopla's questions to my post first, commented on rest of the early stuff after it and then came back to answer before sending. So whether I was being hypocritical to Tenchi came to my mind too. But I thought at the time that his no introspection at all was on the extreme side. My problem was related to things being too complex to describe in one sentence rather than thinking there's little rhyme and reason to how I roll.

For the record, I have liked Tenchi's later posting as more townish.

[Ojanen]

I have a few issues with this.
Firstly, let's go back to your original post on Tenchi:

Overtly self-unaware answer. Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over.

You now say that "it came even to my mind that I was having some trouble writing something actually meaningful about my playstyle in one sentence". Either you are lying now or you were lying then, because there is no way that, if you genuinely found the self-meta exercise difficult, you could reasonably be so bombast in your attack on Tenchi as to claim that "Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over". The strong tone of your original attack on him is completely at odds with your current argument.

I'm not lying; you are wrong.
"Everyone has plenty of persona to spill over" is, to me, a simple and evident statement. There is a distinct scent of their specific type of consciousness in every post everyone writes. Playing mafia (even playing something more abstract in regards to personality such as tennis) is something that exposes character. You can take a role but anything involving for example confrontation will make you want to instinctively act in a way that is natural to you. Playstyle has a strong correlation to personality, and even if you consciously try to completely manipulate it, it's likely you will change mostly the surface. So that part is not an attack but a simple fact to me.
"Overtly self-unaware answer" was the offensive part. And Tenchi's answer is still alienly self-unaware to me. But looking at his later posting after RVS: this, and this and this, basically every post has several things that just seem to me like he is putting very little thought into what he's writing (least of everyone in the game including Empking [PREVIEW EDIT: well, this latest post is not really in that same category, haven't read it carefully yet though]), like he's commenting quickly and impulsively and doesn't think through, doesn't value pondering. And in that context his answer no longer seems unnatural as it seemed early on. Like Hoopla elaborated, someone with an unusually naive style.
I don't see how that tone comes across so strong to you that it would be at odds with what I said now. I wrote the original line before I considered my own exact response as I explained and then left it there despite having to think about my own answer, maybe that comes across in the tone or something, but I don't really see that myself.

Secondly, your most recent post quoted above is dealing with the issue in an evasive manner. Your position on Tenchi has come under serious attack. In that situation, you have two reasonable options: defend or retract. Instead, you've basically thrown up a cloud of smoke by shifting your position so as to minimise the significance of your attack (though, one which raises the inconsistency issue I addressed above), without actually having to take a stand for or against the criticisms that have been made.

I have dodged nothing. I have responded to the criticisms and explained my position at the time. Half of the criticism was made only after I had alrerady moved on, and I felt a bit silly pounding on about my old position on Tenchi when I felt half-assed about it without mentioning that. There are people like Spyrex and to a lesser degree imaginality who have surpassed him on the misty side of my suspicion list by now. You are free to not believe it of course since I didn't go on record explicitly on my waning interest on Tenchi when I started pursuing other things.

To ckd: you asked why I felt Tenchi was more townish later; the above has some explanation; also while I completely and utterly disagreed with it, his iso 11 felt somewhat more likely town motivated to me (not scum-scum probably in any case). As a little detail his thought process in iso 10 about useless provocation from ckd mirrored mine exactly (that's only relevant because I don't think he thinks hard).

[Ojanen]

Also, I'm optimistic enough about there being means to read people through in-game analysis that I don't see myself supporting policy lynching Empking for out-of-game reasons (this without playing a game with him as far as I remember).
Kinetic's answers to my questions were unsatisfying but I will wait and see. Can I just confirm that the answer to my question on whether anyone made an overreach comparable to your perception of mine was negative in myko vs. ckd?

I have a concert on Friday and a recording on Saturday; preparing/executing those will probably limit my access for the next couple of days.

[Ojanen]

English is my third language, guess it shows sometimes.
Just please confirm that you indeed found noone to make an overreach myko vs. the dog since that part was left somewhat unclear to me. That the tell you applied to me doesn't not apply there.

[Ojanen]

Lol. doesn't not = doesn't in post 193. sorry.

[Ojanen]

@mod

: please prod q21.

[Ojanen]

I'll be back from limited access status tonight.
I hatehatehate the dormant thread (while I acknowledge my LA to have contributed to that lately).
I do not like the shape of the later wagon. It was gut until I realized the thing that was bugging me: who's bussing, is anyone looking good? I'm not as keen on the q21 lynch as I used to be (q21's disappearance doesn't make sense as stalling either here especially after the no-content peek, thus makes sense as not caring that much to be lynched).

Incognito said he can kinda see the merit behind the wagon when it first started, but that he was feeling lonely with his Kinetic vote. Now he said he doesn't really have a read on q21. That could be a scumbag who sees he doesn't need to tarnish himself by being on a townlynch if q21 is town after all.

Feeling conflicted, but not sure how realistic another lynch is at this point, unless I see some life out there and soon. Will be back on tonight.

[Ojanen]

Why not. I'm not pretending he isn't a question mark to me but upheaval yay and I'll be on enough to switch back to q or someone else after a reread in a bit if I deem it fit. I don't have a townread on him in any case. We need some damn action.

unvote q21
vote Incognito

[Ojanen]

So... you ignore completely what I just said?

No, I saw what you wrote. I just think it could come from scum or town, didn't find the explanation alignment-enlightening. fits with you saying earlier you don't like 3 players on the wagon but not much more to glean from that. I disagree with your Spyrex hate btw.
I'm not even pretending to have written a case or similar fpr you to respond. I'll be back on later and reread and see if there's something to dialogue about or change my opinion stronger one way or another.

[Ojanen]

A quickie for the multiple questions on why I don't hate SpyreX: I once lynched him for stuff including a gut-case on mykonian based on a single line upon replacing to a 30+ page game that wasn't factually all that solid. He was town (and myko was scum ugh). the slicey case totally reminds me of the style of that case. not treating it as a scumtell. inside the small effort he has made, he's made zero effort to look good, quite the opposite, and very little effort to be charming which I would expect to be his trademark survival thing.

---

First thought about the vig claim was to wonder how much sense a vig makes in a game of already multiple lynching possibilities for town every day. Hell if I ever knew anything about balance, though.

Rereading.

[Ojanen]

In an epic turn of fate, a storm in Helsinki cut my internet access for a crucial day, which is a shame.
I don't think Kinetic is scum. Actually, I don't currently think anyone on Incognito's wagon is. This ups Incognito's chances of being scum, although it could also be that scum prefer to get rid of Kinetic due to the theme game breaking reputation or want to mess with Hoopla if she's alive later in the game.
At least the reason "Kinetic wasted time for going on and on about Empking policy lynch" is terri, terri,terribad btw (hint: if you think it's a waste of time to discuss, blame not the answerer).
I'd rather lynch, on a quick glance, Slicey, Empking, Incognito, imaginality or populartajo.
More in a bit - now finally the reread time.

[Ojanen]

Still something wonky with my stupid internet. I have left the attempted rereads until later, if I'm still alive. Kinetic was obviously town on that last phase, this makes me pissed.
What the hell were you complaining about, ckd, on q21 switching when you weren't voting either wagon? pay attention.
tajo is really annoying and the lynching attempt is phony.
any attempt to lynch scum at this point will end in the said scum pulling an incog and no claim. not that it couldn't happen with town too, and this town is not coordinated anyway at the moment.

[Ojanen]

pop

Noone on this wagon has been mafia. That is remarkable. And the both wagons needed to properly analyze the dynamics today argument feels strong to me. Kinetic is obvtown, I mean really.
shake it up up up up up up

vote: Incognito

(L-4)

tajo: Yes, I've only played with Spy once. I have read some of his other games but the strong and exact memories are only from the one. Feel free to find me scummy for this.

[Ojanen]

This wagon would almost too good to be true if Incog is scum - we'd get so many likely towns from present people, even Slicey's piping.
tajo, that quote is a survival comment, not a softclaim.

[Ojanen]

I did a re-skim. Observations coming now as I have drops of time to type/iso some stuff.
First thing on Incognito: I didn't find his play all that scummy upon reread... (I wish I did, deep down l'm a sheep longing to stay a part of groups.) The emotion at one point against myko seemed sorta mildly townish and otherwise it was pretty neutral. BUT his peak wagon before Kinetic was lynched (Hoopla, me, myko, Kinetic, q21) I feel pretty strongly is free of mafia, which is super unusual if Incog is town. I'm just looking at the shape of the swing.

Kinetic 3 (vollkan, Slicey, q21) - Incog 2 (Hoopla, Ojanen) (at 2 votes also: imaginality, SpyreX vollkan, q21 before Emp switches)

Emp

=>Kinetic 4 Incog 2
Myko=>Kinetic 4 Incog 3
Incog=>Kinetic 5 Incog 3
Kinetic=>Kinetic 5 Incog 4
imaginality=> Kin 6 In 4
tajo=> Kin 7 In 4
q21

switch

=> Kin 6 In 5
Spy=> Kin 7 In 5
Aand Kinetic self-lynches.

Emp's vote can't be read as Incog defence in that vote dynamic as much as liking to get rid of Kinetic, who hates him.
Let's see. imaginality, tajo and Spy are the only possibilities for extra mafia influence explicitly benefiting Incog in this situation through wagoning town instead.
-Spy and Incog aren't mafia together. (I doubt Spy is at all, but I'll get to that a bit later.)
-imaginality and Incog aren't mafia together (imaginality would have shut the hell up and not brought Incog to L-2 in the quickwagon just before deadline - he even had a perfect excuse due to Kiwi timezone)
=>tajo and Incog is the only possibility if there was explicit influence on wagons (

due to Incog

, not just getting rid of Empking hater/very strong player). this is possible. tajo's reason for liking Incog as town (the emotion to myko) wasn't horrible though.
so my passion about it has decidedly waned.
It might be most cost effective to just lynch him now because there's a block with clear towns wanting it and wanting it now without wasting time and it's an information wealth either way. but let me type out some other stuff, too.

will be continued in a sec.

[Ojanen]

So, is Empking sneaky as scum?
There were 2 quick votes on ckd after myko's case (wagon: vollkan, myko, imaginality, kmd)

FoS: CKD

Myk make somes good points and CKD is definitely doing some misrepresentation with regards to Myk but Hoopla is still by far the scummier of the two.

This reminded me strongly of the FoSsing instead of voting buddy, but it's an überbasic scumcliché.

In any case I took an interest to curiouskarmadog.

it seems to me ckd is less agressive towards Emp than others.
Playstyle self-description:

5.) passionate to the point of anger

This is true. He reacts strong.

well if there is going to be a lynch Day 1, it might as well be mine, you are going to be embarassed at the end of it, mykonian, curious what was your scummie for?
and when you say "X has just as much of a chance to be scum" and you want to policy lynch, that is not scummy hunting....I dont care what you say. have we ever played before? i could throw out some meta bullshit, but it is just that, bullshit.

I think you are missing my point...if Kinetic flips scum that unvote and such a late date says something does it not?...so get off my fucking back about paying attention, I was just making a note.

but
ckd to empking after an easily vague and then false argument:
[Empking is saying ckd is misrepresenting stuff, the FoS post.]
[quote=""ckd"]who really is misrepresenting? and again...because people seem to be missing them:
[insert questions][/quote]
vollkan (not even ckd himself) asks Emp to quote the misreps and Emp does.
ckd posts a quote making the claim of misrep false and

maybe we have different definitions of "never said that".

I haven't had time to comb ckd's posts thoroughly to find more direct retorts to attacks, if they exist. but there's a lightyear of difference in aggressivity of tone in how he talks to Emp here, from myko and me, at least.

ckd posts a wall that includes all this:

[...]106, Empking states I was misrepresenting mykon, but never does not demonstrate how…only get an FOS from him
[...]
135, Empking posts and completely ignores my post to him….how the fuck did you win a scummie?
[...]
148, Empking follows mykon…again.
[...]
[...]and the people who joined it for bad reason (empking).
[...]
169, Empking makes a horrible post.
[...]
172, Kinetic is cool with lynching q21 and attacks Empking’s playstyle
[...]
My thoughts on scum at this point: Kinetic, Empking, and Pop (sorry bud, just got that mojo off of you) (if I had some money, I would lay down that there are 2-3 scum amongst this grouping.

Vote kinetic

All he says on Kinetic is that he likes Incog's vote on him, and he likes this vote on him:

Kinetic, what I don't understand is, is that you keep talking about how bad Empking is in other games and how much of a liability he is, yet you're not commenting on him in THIS game, which is what actually matters. Empking has made enough posts that you can comment on, whether you think it's townie posts or scummy posts, yet you have said nothing on him in this game. You're voting him and attacking him for nothing he's done in this game, but his meta and reputation alone.
For that, I will

Unvote, Vote: Kinetic

. I'm not liking anything he's saying

.

DINGDINGDING bullshit Kinetic wagon follower.
DINGDING major cognitive dissonance: 2-3 scum in Kinetic, Empking, populartajo (Kinetic and Empking scum together????)
DING scumbuddy as 2nd suspect, loads of points against Empking that lead nowhere?

I meant "attack" I put the post number there...if anyone reads the post it is obvious that you are attacking him, not defending him. I think my problem there (why I wanted to note the post for later) was (like Mykon) you are supporting a policy lynch on Day 1. yet I didnt see you actually touch on his scummy actions today. Empking usually sucks across the board, that is why I never join games with him in it. Because you are right that he does hurt the town...but I am not going to waste a lynch based on a policy of me not liking him in game (like mykon, that isnt scum hunting).

Now this particular game though, he actual has made some scummy maneuvers. I am not voting you because of your opinion of empking.

What exactly is the 2 last sentences supposed to mean, except inconsistent backpedaling?

After a while he switches from Kinetic to imaginality, stating that he agrees with Kinetic's vote which basically says nothing other than that Kinetic has mixed feelings about imaginality. ckd has now dropped Kinetic and Emp from lynch list.
Never takes a meaningful part in the wagons end of D1 again, while coming in to say:

also about a half a page behind, I see that kinetic is at -1 and the vanilla claim....not sure what happened to push him to the lynch.
sure Imagin and pop have something to do with it.
still good with my vote.

..the wagon's reasons have not changed since he was advocating it.

TL;DR

-ckd sheeps on crapcase on Kinetic early, contradicts himself all over on it, retreats for non-plausible reasons, stays out of doing anything meaningful late D1.
-ckd treats Empking with markedly different tone to others
-Empking treats ckd like noobscum treats buddies

vote: curiouskarmadog

[Ojanen]

Little things I couldn't understand for the life of me:

@imaginality

Hoopla, are you voting Tenchi for contradicting himself in the post you quoted?

Hoopla said yes and you never came back to it. Why did you ask this?

@tajo

Post 37 at 11:17 is kmd telling you to vote hoopla. Post 38 at 11:19 is vollkan justifying his random vote and answering to your accusation. Post 39 at 11:23 is you answering two lines to kmd (shouldn't have taken more than 20 secs) and not directing a single word to volkan, which leads me to think that you didnt read volkans post when writing your post.
So why did you take 6 minutes to answer kmd?

Why were you questioning SpyreX about this; what in here could possibly be scummy?

@Tenchi

At this point I read Mykonian's post 99 and I do agree that CKD's reactive playstyle post is scummy.
I will vote CKD if I need to be.

Ummmmm... you had your random vote on vollkan on. Why no vote ckd here, why only if need be?

[Ojanen]

SpyreX isn't getting lynched today, because I'm pretty sure he was the first to call out the crapcase on Kinetic in a substantial way; right after Empking's no-explanation Kinetic vote 30 hours to deadline (Kinetic at 4 votes, everyone else at 1 to 2, volatile vote climate) he posted this

OR THIS ABOVE.
Seriously can we do this I can make lots of arguments however you want but if I can't have Slicey and or Tenchi I'd sure eat an empking.

Unvote, Vote: Empking

Take a shot if you want tonight q21 - I'm not going to cry if I die but a Kinetic town flip better be a damn bullseye on Empking.

I'm not naive about bussing and SpyreX has maneuvered lately pretty wildly on the getting lynches done front. But I don't see scum.

[Ojanen]

That's a Tenchi fail. I should've voted him either then, or when I posted in response to my prod. I stopped thinking about the game when I made my I'm sick post. Useless D1 vote, yes.
In retrospect, in the off chance I get sick again

VOTE: CKD

For getting sick 1 week after the post I asked about you're mentioning it a lot
You're saying you should have, but I just wanna know why didn't you?

VOLLKAN AND IMAGINALITY: who is scum?

----
Stuffdump I might need

q21 (7) -- Ojanen, mykonian, Empking,

populartajo, imaginality

, Kinetic, SpyreX

Kinetic (4) -- Incognito, vollkan, Slicey, curiouskarmadog
Kinetic (3) -- vollkan, Slicey, curiouskarmadog
Kinetic (3) -- vollkan, Slicey, q21
Kinetic (7) -- vollkan, Slicey, q21, Empking, Incognito, imaginality, populartajo
Kinetic has been lynched (by vollkan, Slicey, Empking, Incognito, imaginality, populartajo, SpyreX, Kinetic)

SpyreX (2) - populartajo, Slicey
Incognito (5) - mykonian, Hoopla, q21, Ojanen, SpyreX, imaginality
imaginality (1) - curiouskarmadog

missing Empking, vollkan, Tenchi, Incognito, Kmd

Hmph. Everyone on Incog still looks not mafia also after the Kinetic lynch with the possible exception of imaginality who I'm not sure of. It's a bit of a bold scummove to be on that wagon though while having said to think Incog-town, I wouldn't expect that out of imaginality.

[Ojanen]

unvote

I go for genuine. It's too early. He gave no time to bus. Noone else doing it ever ever in this game will get any good will from anything similar again from me. But right now scum-ckd with a scumpal down would have more likely stalled and let us waste time and bicker. imo it's pro-town to get several lynches in today.

relatively interchangeable:
vollkan
kmd
Slicey
Tenchi
...
maybe tajo. maybe incog.
...
maybe maybe imaginality.

You people need to start doing stuff and acting town. Too many names. This is a really good game for PoE.

vote: Slicey

[Ojanen]

Finally, Ojanen what made you go to dislike a lynch on Emp (191) to like his lynch in 336?

Read pls.

Also, I'm optimistic enough about there being means to read people through in-game analysis that I don't see myself supporting policy lynching Empking

for out-of-game reasons

(this without playing a game with him as far as I remember).

In 336 I was pretty sure Kinetic is town and the swipe statement on who'd I'd rather lynch that included Empking had 5 people from Kinetic's wagon. And town-Kinetic over any Empking is pretty self-evident.

[Ojanen]

Hey Hoops, I've been undecided on the Incog front. I went to look at the wagon specifically earlier. The quickwagon is Awesome for information. What do you think about this post?
Basically I was looking at the tipping point after Empking's vote on Kinetic, and the only people who would have benefited Incog on the Kinetic wagon if they were his scumpal were populartajo, imaginality and SpyreX.
However I'm near ruling out imaginality and SpyreX as Incognito scumpals - they were on the QL Incog wagon, it would have just been waaay too easy to lurk through a couple of hours. So the only possibility would be tajo. Who is very blatant at Incog's defence so I dunno, not that likely to me... but within possibility I guess.

Also, something I saw is that if Incog is scum, everyone except Empking becomes very green on the q21 wagon with the exception of tajo who would be imo likely green. That's a lot of green.

[Ojanen]

I like that.

Vollkan, Slicey, Tenchi, KMD posted very little, most of them not at all during the exciting parts of the Kinetic/Incognito race, and if Incognito is scum, that is precisely where I'd be looking, rather than the back-end of the Kinetic wagon as I said before, because I think now only populartajo makes sense as scum with Incog of those three, but it is very blatant. Ugh, Ojanen, you're making me less sure. The amount of prob-townies we get from an Incog-scum flip seems too high for it to be real. But if it is true, we basically win the game.

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly where I'm coming from, too, except that I think there's scum in those four regardless of Incog's flip, especially since they completely coincide with the group of people I don't have a good read on. Lurking or not posting much through that hectic phase is what'd make most intuitive sense. If Incog is your buddy you shut up. If you know he's town being quicklynched you'll worry about appearing on the wagon and the momentum will still probably be there later.
Of course I'm a wimp but playing scum is wimpifying for most people.

relatively interchangeable:
vollkan
kmd
Slicey
Tenchi
...
maybe tajo. maybe incog.
...
maybe maybe imaginality.

[Ojanen]

not mafia: me, hoopla, myko, q21, ckd on whom I just did a massive 180 and spyrex who I'm the least sure of.
That's 6. It's 7 to lynch. At least a few more of us need to collaborate if we actually want to get multiple lynches in today.
I'd appreciate more of these people stating their preferences out of the block [Slicey, Tenchi, vollkan, kmd]. Right now there's 2 votes on each of Slicey, Tenchi and vollkan instead of a wagon on anyone.
I'll burn some of that towncred of mine here: since I realized I was wrong on ckd I haven't really kicked into gear yet regarding a top suspect and it's the foggy elusive bunch for me. I'm pretty fluid with my vote within wagoning that group. For now.

[Ojanen]

Dammit, access problems , will try to solve within a day or two (traveling related as usual)

[Ojanen]

So it seems I can't get the password for the wireless here. Sucks, I'll have access problems the whole week but once a day should be possible.

My problem with vollkan: his posts often come from almost exlusively from this viewpoint of what is reasonable. It's impressively reasoned. But it's safe. Look at his contribution today. Intuitively it's hard to see him aiming for max building of information. He's not voting. He's not advocating much. He's shooting down one relatively obvious argument that has little effect in the overall dynamics of the game.

From my own town experience, pursuing and settling my suspicions through this formal logical standpoint of whether people are acting in a reasonable way doesn't win me games. I know he can shout "I hate gut" but it's not really that either. Horribly vaguey put, it's how you discard and process the interactions.

IF SOMEONE DISAGREES OR IS UNDECIDED ON HAVING A BUNCH OF LYNCHES TODAY please speak up now and say why. We need to remove the undebated excuse for playing a passive game or at least advocating another direction right now from from the pool of excuses.

q21 post right above this one seconded.

No time argh.

[Ojanen]

Support massclaim

Top town
+2 mykonian
+1 Hoopla

top scum:
need to reread some yesterday, will post in a sec.
subgroup imaginality, Tenchi is what I'm thinking first but there's more nebulous people.

I know I'm not "supposed" to say this but I'm still amused that kmd thinks I'm scum.

I thought the timing of the stopping of yesterday was surprising from the scum, but let me check the circumstances again.

[Ojanen]

You know what I'm too tired for this right now. I'll come back tomorrow to comb the thread for the newly dead scum relations and general rereading.

Kinetic has been lynched (by

vollkan, Slicey, Empking

, Incognito, imaginality, populartajo,

SpyreX, Kinetic

)

Haha.

Hypothesis about deadline-inconsequential scum so far correct.

SpyreX (2) - populartajo,

Slicey

Incognito (5) - mykonian, Hoopla, q21, Ojanen, SpyreX, imaginality
imaginality (1) - curiouskarmadog

missing

Empking, vollkan

, Tenchi, Incognito, Kmd

populartajo is an interesting one because he has been on the scums' side on almost everything flipped so far on a glance and has benefited scum a bit too much. Yet he reads more as macho town.

TENCHI, why Incog-obvtown?

[Ojanen]

I'm not in the mood for the reread right now I'll throw the quick and dirty first impression of -2 imaginality and -1 Tenchi here to get the show off the road asap. We have a healthy sized band of obvtown here and this game should be an easy PoE win.

Support massclaim: Hoopla, Incognito, tajo, ckd, Kmd, Ojanen, Tenchi (except for the doctor?), q21
mykonian said he wanted to talk about suspects more before massclaim, although that was before Hoopla's proposed plan and he hasn't been here since.
missing: imaginality

----
myko +1 (Hoops) +1 (Incog) +2 (Oj) +2 (Tenchi) = 6
Oj +2 (Hoops) -1 (kmd) +2 (q21) = 3
Hoops +1 (Oj) +1 (q21) = 2
q21 +2 (kmd) = 2
ckd +1 (kmd) = 1
Incog +1 (Tenchi) = 1
kmd -2 (Hoops) +2 (Incog)= 0
Tenchi -1 (Oj) = -1
tajo -1 (Hoops) -1 (q21) -1 (Tenchi) = -3
imaginality -2 (Incog) -2 (kmd) -2 (q21) -2 (Tenchi) -2 (Oj)= -10

Above could contain a mistake, not triple-checked.
No listed suspects from ckd, imaginality.
myko thinks imaginality scum - another +2 could be counted on behalf of that.
tajo said he could see kmd scum and that imaginality is town. He is also VLA for a few days, perhaps not online for early slot in massclaim then.

[Ojanen]

EBWOP myko thinks imaginality scum - another

-2

could be counted on behalf of that.

[Ojanen]

vote imaginality

[Ojanen]

I would be in shock and awe if there was scum in myko, Hoops and now tajo and q21. I would be surprised if ckd were to turn up scum. Let's get this done.

[Ojanen]

This is all hypotheticals since I absolutely don't believe that there's scum in that group but on the incredible offchance that there were 5 scum and myko was fakeclaiming with one of his buddies as confirmed, I'd rather change the end to

Ojanen
mykonian
Hoopla
--
(tajo and q21)

switching also me going first as a guarantee of sincerity.

But this is all academic.

[Ojanen]

You're right. I'm stupid and tired, can't count 2+2.
Let's just lynch the scum.

[Ojanen]

Well, I assume the entire Incog QL wagon

was

town, then. Sorry imaginality.

vote: Tenchi

[Ojanen]

I just had a long dream about this game. Yos wasn't a mod, he was a SK and won with myko and there was an absract exhibition in a gallery about the last posts.

tajo, you need a reread, you're continuing with the horrible reads judging from who you want to claim. Why do you say Tenchi is town for hammering Slicey when you apparently suspect the people who got the wagon going?

Also fullclaim.

I'm vanilla.

unvote

for now if there's something funny going on.

[Ojanen]

I dabbled a bit in skippy rereading. The news being:
myko's reaction to q21's claim D1 fits his claim. And he's still town anyway.
More doubts about Tenchi and ckd again.
Kmd is town.

[Ojanen]

...
Oh come ooooon tajo and Tenchi.

And it might not matter to you if Tenchi claims a PR but it matters to me. I like winning games with as few town casualties as possible. And I hate hate hate being mislynched. Put those two together and maybe you'll better see where I'm coming from. I like having all information on the table particularly in situations like this so that we could win the game with the greatest number that we possibly can instead of a bunch of useless deaths.

In this situation and in this kind of a mechanic, if you believe myko, the above amounts to precious little more than vanity if you're town; well at least the part about hating to be mislynched. And grasping at straws to fulfill to your wincon if you're scum. You really can't be surprised at people finding you scummy for it. I'm not convinced you're scum but we'll see soon enough.

I'm a little bit careful (and I thought I'd lost this game already once in that dream ) so I'll wait the claims at least for the account of the no kill on N1. Not forever though.

*twiddle*

[Ojanen]

Screw this.
The only distant possibility for us to not win this by lynching the list until the game ends is if q21 has some sort of an über immunity and is a SK. But I find that unlikely. (or some flimsy unlikelyness of 2 mafia teams, which nothing supports.)
There is no 5 man mafia team with myko and one of the confirmed. q21 killed half the scum. tajo is stalling/resisting regards to the plan. No motivation for scum-tajo to do so.

I got pretty sick today. Access from tomorrow question mark, might have to go V/LA (I sometimes need to stay in hospital for this). Putting my vote back.

vote: Tenchi

Also,

@MOD

: Tenchi will be within prod range in less than 3 hours. Please prod him if he hasn't posted or isn't lynched by then.

[Ojanen]

Lets leave myko/tajo as the last two.

I would be very much down for this. Anyone disagree?

----

Right now I'm confused. Yes, we got an explanation for a no-kill which remains a strange mystery if Tenchi isn't real.
Why oh why did scum try to kill Incognito, who looked like a shoe-in lynch based on the QL wagon full of town?

Tenchi, please talk to me about your thought process here:

Hoopla, I don't even have my role PM.

Okay guys, I'm only about a fourth way through the game and I have to go so expect more game thoughts tomorrow. But I finally have my partial role PM...I'm sure I'll be able to claim more fully once Patrick gets back.
I'm a doctor. I protected Myk N1. I'm assuming the scum targeted Myk N1 as well.

Partial? Your role PM came in parts?
ERROR ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE

If you are a doctor you must have known right here it's a fakeclaim.
4 minutes later you post

This stops now.
We are not lynching anyone else today. Period.
The time for that was long past and the simple fact I threw down a vote because I was worried about 0 lynches sure as hell doesn't mean two.
TOMORROW, there will be a purge. A delicious one. We're not doing this again.
Take a shot if you want tonight q21 - I'm not going to cry if I die but a Kinetic town flip better be a damn bullseye on Empking.

And then two hours later...

I'll give it a shot but its a pipe dream.

Unvote, Vote: Incog

Wagon sliding much? Checking Spyrex's interactions with Incognito.

Why are you looking at SpyreX now, who has been after Slicey's throat since day 1?
If Incog is confirmed town to you, what do you mean by checking their interactions?

What part of the claim are you missing? For me, I don't believe it. I'm advocating a hammer if someone is weighing up dropping one.

Now my concern here is that two of my biggest suspects is advocating this lynch.

I find the roleclaim REALLY fishy though. Also, my issue here is that a TownDocSlicey would be pumped in the game that his save went through, and that Empking died. Also, Seraphim, you have been around for about two hours-ish and I thought were you reading. Instead, your posts are really reactive. I do not get also why your role PM will come in parts.
I think the best move here is to lynch Seraphim/Slicey, then move on the SpyreX. Spyrex has advocated 12908902180921380123 lynches that his flip would be more informative than anybody else's, not to mention he was also part of the Kinetic wagon.
After that, I wouldn't mind a Hoopla lynch. Chop Chop!
(Well Hoopla going first is ideal. I'm gonna make a case on that tomorrow or friday.)

Vote: Seraphim/Slicey

The confirmation that you don't think Hoopla/SpyreX suspects are scum with Slicey is underlined.
If you are town, you knew Slicey was scum. And if you are town you had no idea scum was going to stop the day so WHY do you state outright intention to go after them next?

This is otoh also a slightly weird thing to post if you do know the day is going to stop - that is, if scum has sent in the choice that the day will be stopped after the first lynch. Oh wait but would you know? I guess that depends on whether there is daytalk; not necessarily.

Why did you not want to claim in massclaim today?
You said you support massclaim except for the doctor.

I don't know. We wouldn't have an explanation for the no-kill but I there's some cognitive dissonance there. I wouldn't like to leave Tenchi+Incog as confirmed in a final four or something similar.

unvote

Out of the unconfirmed I'm certain that Hoopla is town. Kmd doesn't look like scum. ckd's self-vote doesn't look like scum but his dynamics with scum are bad, categorically goes after no scum, even the first fluffing that made myko go after him was on vollkan, scum categorically stay off his wagon.

For that I'll

vote: ckd

I have no idea what he's saying in the above post and why he thinks there will be a night.
Not kmd because I don't like to vote for people I think are town before it's clear a good plan is getting through (if there is scum in the confirmed I will be lynched before them).

I am

V/LA

anything between 1 to 3 days from now. Getting some treatment.

[Ojanen]

I'm back.
Massive seconding about the paranoia overtaking everything here.
I mean why the fuck are so many people ignoring completely the normal ways of reading people in addition to the role info.

I have no problem with you and tajo being the last players...I just dont want myko in the final 4, just in case he scum with tajo...

How the hell does tajo make sense as ANY kind of scum at this point? He was like the main person with Incog avalanching all the umnming and amming about any plan, and that makes ZERO sense from someone in the last 2 if he was scum.

Why the hell are people intent on finding out Tenchi's claimed N2 target? In what way could waiting for that info be even remotely useful??

How much sense does myko make as scum? None, unless he's scum with tajo or q21, neither of which make sense as scum, Also, go look at him gunning at vollkan the daystopper again please.

More soon.

(did you notice how Incog wanted to be "confirmed" if tenchi wasn't scum?)

yes.

[Ojanen]

Hammering.

unvote; vote: Tenchi

[Ojanen]

Yay.
I enjoyed this game, especially interacting with Hoopla and mykonian here.
SpyreX's gutreads have ruled 100% of the time in the games I've been with him in. I wanna be his lowly apprentice.

[Ojanen]

Also, self-hammering as town on Day 1 in an invitational? Just wow.

Wow... I disagree with you so much even after the game.
I actually thought Kinetic's self-hammer was pretty brilliant play to get max information at that point in a multi-lynch mechanic. And your QL wagon was awesome for information. Town filled QL wagons often are.
After a couple of days of D2, I had a pool of 4 players of which 3 ended up being scum partially due to a theory of the quick wagon and it also ruled out a lot of possible scumpartners for you which made the game easier to see through without flips.

Can we see the qt?