/in-vitational Game 8 - Nito City (over) after 1015

[Porochaz]

vote farside

I got misty eyed when she said she put me in her wants, noone is allowed to see me cry...

[Porochaz]

BANDWAGON

vote zaj

[Porochaz]

This is a ridiculous argument, Im not even sure Jack is being serious but

vote Jack

anyway, I do not see any rolefishing.

[Porochaz]

You aren't really reacting to votes very well, are you?

[Porochaz]

Meh its only a getting us out of the RVS vote, Im latching onto something. Whether he is joking or not, there is no rolefishing there,

[Porochaz]

You want to play with me, then you tell me my vote is crappy... You realise you have hurt me with your language... to portray you will be getting a sad face at the end of your username every time I need to post it until I forget to portray how I am hurting inside, farside:(

[Porochaz]

Imkingdavid is fine, he seems confused at first then he makes a good point in his latest post.

Sotty doesn't have a good post thus far. Particularly the first 3, a vote with no explanation, a seriously gimmicky serious post and a stupid question.

[Porochaz]

I've never played with Jack before, I am modding an ongoing with him in it so obv cant talk about it, whilst I can understand where your coming from and I do not support policy lynches of pretty much any kind, I do not feel ignoring or rewarding bad play is a good way to go, even if it is for reactions.

Thank you for the compliment though you have been upgraded to farside:)

[Porochaz]

I haven't liked a thing sotty has said so far.

unvote vote sotty

[Porochaz]

Unvote, Vote: Jack

Not a good reason

[Porochaz]

It's not an RVS vote, why would you think that? I clearly asked you a serious question about being serious. You seriously replied and I seriously voted.

...Seriously.

Neither is this.

[Porochaz]

I don't think there is any role fishing so I think my vote is a good one. Do I think it is Jack being Jack, sure. Right now I don't have a better place for my vote.

Ok so you know the way Jack plays then and you seem fine with it, yet you are still voting for him. By way of this quote, it seems that you have found an easy vote against an easy target and thats why your voting.

Also in the first post, you managed to outWIFOM yourself there. Well done on that.

[Porochaz]

Its a good point.

[Porochaz]

I do feel my vote however was a way of pushing out the RVS, it was never a lynching vote. Sotty's question and Jacks response don't yield much into sotty's reasoning. It's just a question. If we go to

It's not an RVS vote, why would you think that? I clearly asked you a serious question about being serious. You seriously replied and I seriously voted.

...Seriously.

Its not clear that it wasn't an RVS vote, as he just voted with no initial reasoning but ignoring that, Jack didn't really answer the question and Sotty "seriously voted". Without ever gleaming an answer to his question. He states the reasoning is the same as mine but my reasoning is that I don't reward stupid play and the lack of rolefishing in that comment was the reason why Im voting. Sotty states his reasoning I guess in 35 and then starts speculating about it, (which does give me off vibes). But fair enough its a reason. However in post 49 he states that he knows that this is how Jack plays, therefore is his vote on Jack warranted, if this is how Jack plays? Personally I don't think so and increasing pressure around me suggests that this is a null tell having not played with Jack before. So I should unvote, sotty obviously sees this as well as stated in 52 but doesn't unvote and I don't understand how still voting him for what is essentially a null tell is helping, especially when sotty knows it. Hence why it looks like an easy target vote, hence why Im voting for him.

[Porochaz]

That post was done in bad engrish, I hope you can decipher it okay.

[Porochaz]

Was still happy with my vote on Jack at that time, the only reason I brought you up before because farside asked. I would prefer you to vote me actually. I mean yes it would add credence to my theory that you are just bandwagoning the easier targets but at least you would be doing something worthwhile with your vote and not voting someone for something that you cant get a tell either way from.

[Porochaz]

Farside, do you feel on page 3, I should have extensive reasoning to my votes?

[Porochaz]

I am still LA I have been posting in a game which is in a bit of a rut and my own modded games, I plan to post within the ones I havent in a while tomorrow.

[Porochaz]

I have caught up whilst I have some town reads but no scum reads as of yet, I need to read when its not early morning, however I think an

unvote

would be appropriate at the moment.

[Porochaz]

I find it interesting you are jumping on me so readily, especially you farside. You havent liked my early posts, I thought that was harsh but ultimately fair. Then I gave my reasoning, which someone interpreted. Then I went v/la and without throwing it back in your face you knew, as you offered to look after one of my games, (as a sidenote, thanks for offering but I wrongly decided I could manage) then one post above, which is essentially me unvoting. I understand your need to lynch someone especially as the deadlines are unusually strict and we have a lot of V/LAers but this isn't the way I've seen you play before. You are usually more reasonable than this.

The other 2 that expressed suspicion on me, I have had exams from the 5th to the 10th. It says so in my sig. Out of the three games I am in and the two I am modding this came this did not appear in my priorities, neither did the other 2 games Im in.

[Porochaz]

Apologies, I made a mistake and read sotty's post wrong. Ive read through the thread and got some stronger opinions, it might sound like OMGUS and Im wary of voting her but farside is not playing to her meta at all. It's been a while and whilst I know it's not the case I get the feeling that she might be out to get me after PYP, but joking aside her posts leave me uneasy.

As do Zajnets and I haven't had the luxury to play with him before, the copy pasting thing is weird/the has piggybacked on farside, iso 7 is a horrible post, and really Im still a bit unsure why he is voting MOI.

vote Zajnet

[Porochaz]

You didnt read my next post did you?

[Porochaz]

At 4am I beg to differ, and to be honest, I haven't really read anything very interesting in the last 8 pages. I was caught up but as we have 8 pages of near nothingness, nothing at least to base a case on. If I'm honest the V/LA problem for everyone combined with some people's posting styles has caused people to fanny around. Im coming back into a game where my top suspect is farside purely for meta reasons and zajnet, which whilst not a terrible case, is far from the best one I've seen. Im coming back to a game where CDB has posted 4 times and noone has picked up on it, despite him not being V/LA for most of the time? So no, I do have an opinion, Zajnet is not very town looking, Farside isn't playing to her regular meta, but also yes I don't have a really good opinion. Im going to work on changing that.

[Porochaz]

@farside Maybe its because it's been a while since Ive been in a game with you (- the PYP, which was unusual circumstances) however my read of you is your usually well reasoned, you explain your votes - or anything you do - well, you seem to be relying on your gut more, this may be because your not explaining your reasoning more, you also ask a lot more questions, which you did to a degree anyway but with a lot more volume now, you also are emphasising your votes more without really bringing anything new to the table, something that someone like Llama or tajo would do, and you are a lot more aggressive, it's like Mafia Mum has rebellious teenagers. You also didn't seem the type to do scum/town lists particularly as I thought you would prefer to keep them private due to the potential information that it gives. Oh and also letting CDB get away with what he is doing.

[Porochaz]

Goon Cop?

[Porochaz]

Am I asking a really stupid question when I ask what a "goon cop" is? Either way... What is a goon cop? This game has really confused me. However as of day 2 start, Im not liking Jasons defence of the case. Answer it, don't fanny around throwing a strop about it. Im also disliking the inane posturing.

[Porochaz]

Why not just call it a cop then?

[Porochaz]

His post said he had "caught up", but he also said he didn't have scumreads. In a situation where you know as a matter of FACT that he is busy, it is ridiculous to think that he should therefore have proper suspicions formed. It's very easy to read a game, without having all the benefits that come from being an active player, and not be able to find anybody scummy, particularly where, as was clearly the case with Prozac, you are otherwse busy

FOS: Volkan

I don't like you giving Porzac a pass here and excusing his behavior in such a way.
No one I know is that RL busy that they do a reread and have no scum suspect that's just BS.

I was going to post, to say that I will be posting in the next few hours on but I will do a quick reply to this.

As you may or may not know I have a problem retaining information, now I don't like using it as an excuse and will try my best to play regardless, my usual play is to delve into day 1 and make my mark and find a "hook", obviously due to my exam period I couldn't do that so when I read back over the past pages, in my opinion, to be quite frank, I read some of the most mind numbingly dull and pointless stuff that was absolutely useless to me, which made reading up a real drag. So I didn't have much opinion beyond the blatant OMGUS earlier on. Im not sure thats much to base a case on, but I am basically running on empty on this game. Hence why I'm not posting much - (beyond still being busy IRL and over extending myself slightly) - once I get time to look over the game a bit more I will get back to you, which will hopefully be after Ive written an email about uni.

[Porochaz]

Ok so I read back from page 10 and I said before its about as funny as scraping my eyeballs out with a rusty nail in that, I would have been voting Charlie by the end of day 1, and I would be voting Jason here. (I am going to let him answer farsides question though) My other read is on my biggest fan herself, farisde (!), as I stated before Im having trouble with her meta and whats more Im having trouble with the fact she is being a bit dickish towards my v/la, which is unusual for her, the mafia mum. However my case kinda boils down to her different attitude and I haven't played with her in a while but something is really really off. However I am finding myself unable to make a case which isnt meta and gut.

Talking about meta and one of my own personal scumtells, I think it was one of the "Z's", will look it up later, self meta in general doesn't work. Stop doing it. I've enjoyed vollkans posts so far, beyond him defending me slightly, they have been fairly interesting would look to hear more from Ythan - he seems quite banterous as well. Jack's Jack, Sando is playing as Sando does, however I think I could spot him as scum and haven't had any real incling to that effect yet...

Yeah I guess thats me caught up, 4am baby, dedication

[Porochaz]

Also stupid question incoming:
Does a weak doctor still protect a player? I assume yes but I'm not 100% on this.

Yeah. Town player he protects. Scum player he dies.

[Porochaz]

I remember when I could come to you for hugs

[Porochaz]

I need to look at the wagon's from day 1 and day 2.
Jack's play is starting to remind me of PYP2 where he was scum.
@Poro: Where are you in this game? What views do you have on those who voted for Jason

Zajant: input pronto!

Im not sure yet, 4 out of the 5 I would have at the bottom of my town to scum list. However I liked the wagon (easy for me to say that now, I know). I would say I would reread, but my reads are so marginal anyway...

[Porochaz]

Accusing me of boilerplate scumtells Vollkan... Cute.

Reading through the thread I really really hate this post.

[Porochaz]

jasonT1981 (6) <-~ Sotty7, MagnaofIllusion, farside22, vollkan, Zajnet, jasonT1981

Jack (1) <-~ Ythan
vollkan (1) <-~ Sando
Zajnet (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (2) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz

I just want this to refer to who is in this game

Lets start with sotty, when I saw vollkans case against her in day 2, I didn't really feel it. I didn't like her initially during day 1 but thinking town now.
MOI is one of the few I can't get a read on this game.
farside I have stated my thoughts on already, Im sure she's scum, there is something way off about her posts and well... Ive said what Ive said
vollkan - I found town right from the off but as he's dead now, it doesn't really matter
zajnet - hasnt posted really, when he has, he hasn't posted that well. Sorta like myself.
Ythan - didn't post enough, Erg0 will though Im sure
Jack - Im starting to warm to Jacks posting style, I wouldnt believe a claim from him ever but he's playing consistently enough.
Sando - from his response to vollkans points against him (and I dont just mean the post quoted above) to his reaction against me and his general posting style thus far.

vote sando

farside is 2nd, zaj 3rd

[Porochaz]

I just read Sando in this game and he is pretty much looking like lazy scum.
He attacked mostly Jack on day 1 with little comment towards anyone else and then votes for charlie.
Today he has gone back to day 2 more Jack is scum then votes for Volkan in what equates to an OMGUS vote
Today is now Porochaz who he said next to nothing about to what again equates to OMGUS vote.
He has done little to no scum hunting sticking with Jack and only attacking anyone who says things against him.

I looked into his past games of recent where boy all I found was him as scum and he comes off as rude, he scum hunts but attacks people pretty fiercely.

example:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 34&start=0

@Sando: Do you have an link to a game you were town that is not currently still ongoing?

I would also say compared to the link above Sando is close to actively lurking. I notice he's not in any other game and seems to be keeping a low profile here.

Rude? I don't think I was rude at all in that game maybe when attacking Al but I feel offended by that.

In regards to lurking, or lurking within this game, Im now past the point of caring to be honest, vote for me, or don't. Im not going to defend myself against something which is true in that Im playing this game in the background to some of the other games, its a shame because if you look at the player list for all the games Im playing, I actually like this one the best overall. Im getting into this game as much as I can but it's not happening at the moment, but be sure as soon as I find a hook I'll be onto it with my same "fierceness" as in my other games.

[Porochaz]

LA for a week or so

[Porochaz]

1 quick peak into Poro's recent posting on the site.
This alone makes me want to vote him as scum. He's posting fine in other games and active in comparison to this game.
I still want to go look at the analysis of him as scum vs town consider this an

FOS: Porochaz

This is very similar to what he was doing in our last scum game.

Woah, no it's not. I was active in our game. Blatant misrep. Its the link farside posted. If anyone doesn't believe me go check it out.

But watch Poro not engage with my posts against him now that he's got the ball rolling on my wagon.

What do you want me to answer to? Obviously Ive stated that Im not going to answer to lurking because I have to a degree. I also think you were harsh in your assessment of that particular point. However, if you have any other points I will answer them.

Also @farside

I just read Sando in this game and he is pretty much looking like lazy scum.
He attacked mostly Jack on day 1 with little comment towards anyone else and then votes for charlie.
Today he has gone back to day 2 more Jack is scum then votes for Volkan in what equates to an OMGUS vote
Today is now Porochaz who he said next to nothing about to what again equates to OMGUS vote.
He has done little to no scum hunting sticking with Jack and only attacking anyone who says things against him.

I looked into his past games of recent where boy all I found was him as scum and he comes off as rude, he scum hunts but attacks people pretty fiercely.

example:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 34&start=0
snip

Rude? I don't think I was rude at all in that game maybe when attacking Al but I feel offended by that.

snip

I realise you weren't talking about me, I've had a busy day and Im exausted, so Im not reading properly.

[Porochaz]

I brought up your ISO and did a “find all” for both Zach and Jason. You mention Zach once and never mention Jason until he is dead. It is clearly true.

Do you not understand the word 'literally'? It's part of a consistent stretching by Locke, it's not as though I'm claiming 'ZOMG HE LIED, LAL!!!', I'm simply pointing out that he's stretching the truth.

I've also seen Poro play this exact way as scum, you know one of those games we've all been talking about as meta for me as scum? Yeah that one...

Which one? The one I was active and really involved in, and farside linked?

Yeah because thats exactly the same way Im playing in this game...

[Porochaz]

But in your example I didnt play that way. In fact I played the opposite. Stop saying otherwise.

[Porochaz]

I know the exact example you were meaning. Your speaking rubbish though, I was active in that game, and anyone who is seriously taking this argument into consideration I implore you to take a look into that game and see.

[Porochaz]

Its also not my meta. I now am doing it myself, self meta-ing doesn't work but I don't want to be known as the guy who lurks through games because generally Im not. People like farside and erg0 will be able to vouch for me on that one I hope.

[Porochaz]

Im not over reacting, I hate people who play the way you are suggesting and whilst Im having that problem right now with this game its not the way I usually play and its not the way I played in that game and Im really surprised your saying it. So I am obviously going to react.

[Porochaz]

I dont understand the reference.

[Porochaz]

I hate the fact your right. However I still feel sando isn't accurate and I still maintain the right to get angry at vezok and ani

[Porochaz]

which I should point out quickly that that is a general gripe and not referencing an ongoing game.

[Porochaz]

Picking up prod, Im still on Limited Access, however I started reading day 3 yesterday, I aim to finish tomorrow.

[Porochaz]

Oversight, I have no problems with Locke, although this is before my read through day 3

and

because I was v/la pretty much when it started and day 1 was as dull as hell.

[Porochaz]

Wait a sec, someone explain to me how sotty is confirmed town?

[Porochaz]

Have I? I dont need it if your away too.

[Porochaz]

a way even sorry.

Anyway onto my vote, Im not sure how to play this, and Id like to apologise for my conduct during this game, in that I never got into it and I should have replaced out. I understand that this is an in-vitational and those of you who did request to play with me probably didnt expect this from me having either played with me before or seen me in other games.

The best way to play this in my eyes is partially to view the confirmed scums posts and partially to go on gut. I went through everyones iso in the end and my reading came up the same, the playstyle is too inconsistent for me, and I was wary about doing it before because I didn't think it was enough, the confirmed scum particularly erg0 and friends with farside is interesting. However in the end its mainly gut.

vote farside

[Porochaz]

I thank you for your faith in me, but to be honest Im going to go out on an existential limb here, why? I haven't done anything to warrant your belief that Im town and whilst I would prefer you didn't lynch me, you haven't really said why.

[Porochaz]

I notice that you, Erg0 and Jason have a nice contrast when it comes to Jack in that both of them voted Jack one for very minimal reasons and the other pushed him quite hard. However scum have focused a lot of attention on him, as have you, the exception is, despite being more vocal about him than Jason, you have yet to put a vote or even a fos down on him.

I also want to know, although I doubt you'll be able to answer, the purpose (now Im looking into it) of the emphasis in iso 25.

[Porochaz]

Hmm I wrote several versions of my voting farside post, one of which explained other slight reads I had, within that I was going to ask for a town/scum game from MoI, it might be worth having a look at some games of farside as well?

I feel like Im starting to get a hook on this game now, which is useless in the closing stages. It should be pointed out Im fairly confident of Jack being town at this moment as well.

Locke, you've explained day 3, what about earlier on?

[Porochaz]

Im waiting for farside to post about how scummy I am.

In response to MoI, your word choice is not good. I may go into it later, but not just now.

[Porochaz]

Id rather have farside way in first. Besides I like my vote where it is for the moment, no need to rush anything.

[Porochaz]

Weigh even, not worth a doublepost but it annoys me so much.

[Porochaz]

unvote vote zajnet

[Porochaz]

Im okay mass claiming, not so sure about the no lynching as of yet. Perhaps its best to discuss other options as well before we come to a final decision on that.

[Porochaz]

I am very very drunk.Hi.

[Porochaz]

vote no lynch

[Porochaz]

Oh forgot to mention - if I die tonight and the game doesn't end lynch Locke.

Why did you say this?

I think as noone died, maybe we should just bite the bullet and mass claim today?

[Porochaz]

Surely in this situation then it would be better to no lynch again?

Im vanilla townie btw.

[Porochaz]

Oh I also don't like your claim btw, 1. very difficult to prove and more importantly 2, goon cop and weak doctor, 2 informative roles, highly doubtful of a third.

[Porochaz]

Ive been here regularly for the past couple of game days. I had nothing to comment on.

Putting it to you straight, weak doc and goon cop are fairly strong info roles, why would there be a hider as well to give the town yet more info, I am also trying to work out exactly what balanced game you are playing in with 3 info roles, (weak doc, is a lot more powerful than you make out. For example see the Pick Your Poison Games - specifically 2 or 3) and a town roleblocker. Against a Mafia Rolecop/Mafia Goon/Mafia ???.

[Porochaz]

Sorry, Im just waiting at the moment. I want a no lynch tonight by the way guys.

[Porochaz]

I like your case in your above post. It completely ignores the fact that invitational was chosen as a balanced game and regardless of how strong an info role weak doc is, its still pretty much one sided. I don't need to view the iso to think your claim was bullshit. Your defence on the hole Locke found is truly terrible. Fact is your pissed off that I havent done much this game, yet I have seen straight through your terrible claim.

[Porochaz]

A no lynch would be best today.

vote no lynch

1 and 2 tie into each other, trying to balance 3 investigative roles would be a nightmare. An even night hider, while fits into a "normal" setup (in my view), doesn't fit into the rest of the setup. Im going to assume that the last mafia is a goon. (A goon cop by my eyes is still oddly specific) However let me run a game, MoI, I assume you dont have much modding experience but how would you balance this game? Take the exact setup revealed, and add an even night hider and 2 VT's, now how do you make scum balanced?

I don't think you can. Putting a goon in would be to weak, putting a godfather in would mean if he was cop immune then we would have 2 people the goon cop couldnt investigate, if he was nk immune then A. goon cop would still not make sense and B. be totally pointless as there are no other town killing roles. So how would you do it? Mafia Doctor? Then you have the ol' cop-doc routine except in reverse. And this is why you claim is terrible.

Love how your telling me not to contribute because Im upsetting your easy lynch. Fact is I havent contributed much, Ive given excuses etc. Im not going to apologise for it again. I am a profilic poster on site, I have been sucky recently in a large amount of my games. Don't feel victimised.

[Porochaz]

Nope beyond waiting for Locke.

I want to address MoI's points before we go though.

I guess the main one is the indignation thing. I feel it totally appropriate that I get attacked for any poor play in the past in this game. Its not my (long term) meta and it's certainly something I hate. So yes attack me for it all you want but when it comes down to it, does it make me scum? No. I don't feel I'm lashing out at you either, I am attacking your poor claim. Now I understand given the past 27 and a half pages you wouldn't know what form my attacks come in but this is it. I don't care what you did or who you voted for in the past 27 pages, to go back through and look through your post history would take up a load of my time, would be largely ignored and in the end would dilute my main point. I am looking at cold hard facts here and no matter how you put it, it still looks wrong and Im hoping the others agree with me.

In regards to the rest of your post, Ive said all I want. I did "just look at your join date" and I had a quick look to see if there were any modded games here on ms (as other sites 99 times out of a hundred mean absolutely nothing. Your inexperience in normal games is showing though, as you will see:

I spent some time working on revised Normal guidelines yesterday, and after some feedback from zoraster I'm posting the current version for review by everyone. These are not entirely complete (the whitelist/blacklist isn't settled, for one thing), but reflect my current thoughts on normal policy, taking into account zoraster's proposal, Thesp's threads on roles in normal games, and Ythill's thread on normal flavor.

Normal Game Rules

Flavor:

In Newbie Games, only Mafia flavor is allowed, and Role PMs should follow the standard set by the List Mod.
In Open, Mini Normal, and Large Normal games, flavor is allowed provided these rules are followed:

• All flavor should be public; flavor is not allowed in Role PMs. Role names should be standard, or non-flavored if original.
• Flavor should have no bearing on the game - it should be possible for a player to read only the role reveals posted with the death scene and gain all information needed to play. This information should be formatted to stand out from the flavor.
  
• Flavor not based on Mafia must be entirely original. Games based on books, moves, video games, sports, real people, or any other source material are classified as Theme Games.

Setup:

• Closed
  Normal Games should satisfy the following rules:
• The game should have at least one Mafia group (of at least two members). A second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group. There should be no more than two anti-town groups, and no more than one Serial Killer.
• The game must contain at least one Vanilla Townie (allowed names include: Townie, Vanilla Townie, Innocent Townsperson, Citizen). A sample Role PM for the Vanilla Townie must be included in the rules post.
• Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
  • Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
  • Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).
  • Anything resolving with a random element.
  • Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
  • Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
  • Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
  • Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).
• Roles which are explicitly Normal include: Cop (Sane, Insane, Naive, Paranoid - should either explicitly confirm Sane or explicitly leave Sanity unconfirmed: "You are a Cop of unconfirmed Sanity"), Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Miller (self-aware), Bodyguard, Role Cop, Double Voter, Macho Cop, Hider, Neighbor, Serial Killer, Traitor, Mafia Godfather (Investigation Immune and/or Nightkill Immune), Mafia-aligned versions of above roles, Backup versions, X-shot versions, Even/Odd-night versions, Non-consecutive-night versions. (
  zoraster suggests having a subsection on the wiki for each whitelisted role that defines a "standard" for that role. For example, a normal Doctor is sane and can't self-protect.
  )

Jailkeeper is stupidly strong for scum to have. Redirector and Bus Driver shouldnt be involved and we have has no evidence of that to the contrary. Town Roleblocker becomes a problem when considering both scum roleblocker and scum jailkeeper, who resolves first and how does that effect balance? Also whats the point in having a goon cop when he can only detect one person? 6 townie's, 3 PR's and 3 Mafia, half the town being vanilla sounds good.

[Porochaz]

Considering Ive been after farside most of the game I wouldnt say its as clear cut as that, every single person is still under suspicion, as it should be from everyones p.o.v. I wouldn't be voting straight away after the kill. I think scums nk could potentially be very telling.

[Porochaz]

Your right, I think I need to take a closer look at both of you before I decide, properly.

[Porochaz]

I don't care what you did or who you voted for in the past 27 pages, to go back through and look through your post history would take up a load of my time, would be largely ignored and in the end would dilute my main point.

I am looking at cold hard facts here and no matter how you put it, it still looks wrong and Im hoping the others agree with me.

Emphasis added: In summary – I know actually looking at the game is not going to provide ammunition so I’m going to keep harping on Set-up speculation.

The bolded portion I find telling and somewhat funny – attempting to present your opinion as ‘cold hard facts’.

Preparing the bullshit button. Ive stated Ill have a deeper look into the game. However I think this point stands on its own. Its not speculation, saying "I think there is a roleblocker in the game" is set up speculation. "Having 3 investigatory roles in a mini game makes it hard to balance when we already have yet another town role on top of that" is fact

In regards to the rest of your post, Ive said all I want. I did "just look at your join date" and I had a quick look to see if there were any modded games here on ms (as other sites 99 times out of a hundred mean absolutely nothing. Your inexperience in normal games is showing though, as you will see:

Interesting that you are bringing up the MD discussion started by mith to bolster your attack.

First post of this /invitiational? July 29th
Date of the post you referenced? August 15th

You can feel free to digress into whether Incognito would be aware of the impending clarification by mith and whether his set-up, made at least 2 weeks before the clarification, would pass muster as a Normal set-up.

But please don’t try to Appeal to Authority using post-dated evidence. Scummy.

Now I did add a disclosure initially but then I deleted it. Fact is, most of whats there was still normal before. Specifically why I referenced it. Bus Drivers and Redirectors have never been normal. Not August 15th, not July 29th, not July 29th 2005.

Jailkeeper is stupidly strong for scum to have. Redirector and Bus Driver shouldnt be involved and we have has no evidence of that to the contrary. Town Roleblocker becomes a problem when considering both scum roleblocker and scum jailkeeper, who resolves first and how does that effect balance? Also whats the point in having a goon cop when he can only detect one person? 6 townie's, 3 PR's and 3 Mafia, half the town being vanilla sounds good.

1. Care to explain how a JK is ‘stupidly strong’? It is weaker than a regular Roleblocker because the Mafia can’t block and kill the same target. In the case of a Confirmed PR the lack of ability to both block and kill in the same night limits the Mafia's strategic choices.
2. Stating that any sort of Roleblocker is problematic while asserting that I don’t know what I’m talking about is funny. Natural Action Resolution is just one example of how you handle a potential conflict. And it is only really a conflict if they block each other and the scum is indeed a JK. Otherwise Roleblockers going head-to-head simply cancel each other out.
3. I love how ask ‘What’s the point’ of a specific role in a set-up. Set-ups are often crafted to punish lazy assumptions, which you are attempting to advance.

1. Well apart from anything else, find a mini normal game with a scum jailkeeper in it. You can block a power role, you can protect a scumbuddy from a kill, (which by the way, there are no town killing roles so point = null).

2. When has 2 roleblockers ever cancelled each other out? Bullshit button again.

3. But a normal setup limits it, it keeps you in a box of predefined limits which you are outside of right now.

Considering Ive been after farside most of the game I wouldnt say its as clear cut as that, every single person is still under suspicion, as it should be from everyones p.o.v. I wouldn't be voting straight away after the kill. I think scums nk could potentially be very telling.

Your right, I think I need to take a closer look at both of you before I decide, properly.

These two consecutive posts by Poro illustrate why I think he’s scum. These posts are 20 minutes apart. If Poro was Town you would think he would be actually putting some thought into his stances on the game. Yet it takes Locke directly telling him why it’s a 50/50 for him if he is Town for the realization to occur. Reads clearly as scum who is not able to distance himself from his inside knowledge.

Should I have waited an hour to post that he was right? I did put some thought into it, but in all honesty, what thought do I need here. I just need to run scenario's. If you have hidden behind boberz, it makes him confirmed town, that leaves from your p.o.v. Locke/me. Scum kill boberz as confirmed town. If you are scum, then it still leaves boberz as confirmed town, unless you are town and are lying. Im going to go out on a limb here and say you are a better player than that. I forgot you stated you hid behind boberz.

My vote is going to stand until Deadline. I believe Poro is the last scum.

This is bad play. You should be considering all options at the moment, even the possibility that I am not scum. Isn't it just slightly interesting that Locke has all but clammed up now. Yes, he's been busy. However when he does post, he doesn't comment on this.

[Porochaz]

unvote

[Porochaz]

Here is the dilemma I have someone with a shoddy claim, that I don't want to believe as it seems unlikely that incog would put 3 investigative roles in one game with a roleblocker. That over powers town immensely and we've argued this point to death and if we cut the crap, I think its not something incog would do, I think its too difficult. However, I have been sure farside has been scum all game and whilst it subsided a bit with L.L, that sudden u-turn, seems really off and as much as I dont want to believe the claim, farside being off is still my overriding memory of this game. MoI, Im asking you, to have one last look at Locke and farside and me. You don't have to unvote, you dont have to change your opinion remotely, I just want you to make sure you have a balanced opinion when you lynch and its not biased by our recent convo. You can call this an AtE, it is, Im not going to make any bones about it. I know my case of gut, is not good. However I like to think I have played farside enough times that I can read her. Please, just make sure.

Boberz I ask the same of you.

vote Locke Lamora

[Porochaz]

Heh, well that kinda shows my play this game doesn't it.

unvote, vote MoI

then. Don't like the u-turn but as I havent had a unreliable gut read on you MoI's the way to go.

Goddamn it, just lynch me. I am not scum, I can't really do anything to prove that Im not. Im not going to vote for myself I leave that to Mr. Confirmed town/Mr. Person Ive had a gut scum read on throughout. I am sorry to the rest of town and Incog. I don't really know what else to do, I think this can go alongside hospital (?) mafia as my worst game of all time, regardless of alignment. Apologies, maybe next time I'll try and stick to one/two games at a time and not get into this mess.

Prozac

[Porochaz]

Erm, Im not sure but has deadline passed, you better decide quickly.

[Porochaz]

So boberz has 20 hours and 17 minutes to correct his vote. Then the town lose. I don't know why your accepting that as evidence? He knows your town regardless, he can say what he likes about hiding behind you. Please don't discount MoI on the basis of this.

[Porochaz]

I knew it! Grr, I wish I had played so much better...