Mini 1023 - City Watch Mafia - Game Over!

[Thor665]

I, [recruit's name], do solemnly swear by [recruit's deity of choice] to uphold the Laws and Ordinances of the city of Ankh-Morpork, serve the public trust, and defend the subjects of His/Her [delete whichever is inappropriate] Majesty [name of reigning monarch] without fear, favour, or thought of personal safety; to pursue evil-doers and protect the innocent, laying down my life if necessary in the cause of said duty, so help me [aforesaid deity]. Gods Save the King/Queen [delete which is inappropriate].

My dragon is loaded and ready for business, time to feel the cobblestones through the cardboard.

[Thor665]

Obligatory greeting post.

Vote: jimfinn

I'll make up the reason of voting him because he doesn't read Mr. Pratchett's novels.
In reality I just want an early bandwagon and now we've got a three vote one, go, go, wagon of win.

[Thor665]

EBWOPDTCOT: I would say that to get the ball rolling would be a reasonable thing for scum or town to say, and is thus a null-tell.

Edit by way of purple dinosaur that can't ogle teenagers? You're a sick, sick man and need to be lynched in order to protect the Guild of Seamstresses.

I am fascinated by the concept that all 3rd votes are scummy - should make it much easier to scumhunt in the future.

As long as you're on the Wiki check out OMGUS next.

@Plum - I am really sad now, I'm already in a lot of Newbie games and now I have to try to translate newb tells in this one too. If you're trying to ed-ju-ma-cate the lad why art thou still voting him?

[Thor665]

Woosh. I think we have our first Jellybean of the day. The problem is that they lose their flavor so quickly if poked and prodded by a single player before anyone else gets a taste.

Ah well, the Plum/jimfinn interaction will be exciting and interesting to look at later.

Unvote: jimfinn
Vote: FakeGod

I'm a real god, obvious fake claim by him is obvious.
Also, Button promised me breakfast on this thing.
Also, also - wagons. I like 'em.

[Thor665]

@Mysterio - Do I look like Buttonmen to you or something? That vote is two kinds of fail wrapped in baclava...and I dislike baclava.

@jimfinn - Apologies, I started something of a meme in another ongoing game due to a mod definitely wanting to avoiud any language that could be deemed insulting and the habit just carried over; Jellybean = Village Idiot. That said, you have a challenger to the throe already, so you might work out just fine.

[Thor665]

throe=throne, spelling typos while questioning others' intrinsic intelligence equates to brilliance!

[Thor665]

@Mysterio - because I was running around going "Lynch him, lynch the jimfinn!!!!"

And Button was voting FalseGod and commenting on the Plum reaction mostly. Honestly I think you should explain how that looks like Button wants to lynch jimfinn - I'm pretty stupid so I probably just don't get it, but it doesn't seem to follow to me.

[Thor665]

@Tasky - you commented that the jimfinn wagon got too big too quick. Do you believe this is because of people being dumb, overeager, or having that wagon scum pushed?

Also, why no new vote yet?

@FakeGod - 'hey guys, let's stop discussing roles so early (ignore the fact that the only reason it's happening is because someone chose to claim and don't address that aspect)' <---trying to act towny. (oh boo-hoo, "our" DV is outed).

Moar wagon for win please.

[Thor665]

I think the only way massclaim helps town is if scum haven't been given fakeclaims. I haven't found a mod yet who doesn't give fake claims in theme games.

[Thor665]

@Mysterio - could you link me to a Day 1 Massclaim where town gained useful information?

[Thor665]

You're really focusing on this "inconsistencies" bit - and I just don't grok what you're expecting. Yeah, if we all claim and it goes something like;

Vimes
Carrot
Colon
Nobbs
Angua
Detrius
Weatherwax

well, okay, maybe we've got something there. But your whole inconsistencies concept seems to be predicated on the idea the mod is either dumb or that there aren't enough guardsmen to go around. I certainly don't believe the latter is true, as there is a large cast to draw from, and unless you have evidence of the former I really fail to see what inconsistencies you expect. Even if there are a few less "popular" characters - there's no guarantee that they're more or less likely to be scum. The Lack of evidence from on site games is noted.

I also don't like how you call for mass RC, seek support, and then go along pressuring players and trying to get RC through vote pressure as well. Either try to get general agreement about mass RC or don't, doing both just looks sketchy.

@Narsis - would love to see a bit of commentary from you about your current top suspect.

[Thor665]

@jimfinn - You're the one voting for him - do *you* believe he is scum or don't you?

[Thor665]

@Narsis - Was it post 138 or post 142 that made you vote for him?

[Thor665]

Or vote FakeGod or Narsis - I see win in those wagons and support their lynch.

[Thor665]

just a small question...what do you see that is so win in my wagon?

You don't see the blatant scum energy flinging from your pores? It got on my face and I wiped it off and saw my napkin was covered in win...*liquid* win. (that and your entrance self vote, you claimed "trap" that revealed a null tell (whoopee) and then you call everyone null as far as reads go and sort of gently drift onto the big wagon of the moment...well, all of that and the napkin - the case is mostly about the napkin)

Who should I be suspecting if not you?

[Thor665]

I'm disgusted too, I just realized I lost Button to a VV wagon. Accursed VV and his constant attempts to have wagons run on him via his postings...
Also, when I wrote out the case on Narsis early I realized how amazingly great it was.

Unvote: FakeGod
Vote: Narsis

2jimfinn - If you're not advocating votes be moved to FakeGod because of this - what are you advocating and why did you bring it up?

[Thor665]

At the time you had null tells on every player in the game Mysterio had already role- claimed and power-claimed.

You had a null read on him at that point? Seriously? And not just a null read, but a read where you decided to self-vote, unvote, and then joke around with Plum when she voted you?

[Thor665]

I'm okay lynching KHG now as well, which makes me sad. Earlier he seemed townier, now he seems opportunistic and mealy-mouthed, as all scum are - this is science, you cannot argue with it.

Scumlist; Narsis, KHG, FakeGod - in that order

[Thor665]

VasudeVa - do you actually see a scum connection between KHG and Narsis - or are you just competing to set up a wagon on yourself faster?

[Thor665]

Buddying as a Day 1 tell is as weak as American beer.

I am confused by the vitriol and scope of Tasky's attack - but suspect that if either Tasky/Narsis are scum then it's likely that only one of them is since I don't think scumTasky would make a post like that for scumbuddyNarsis since if we lynch Narsis and he flips scum that leaves Tasky in an awkward situation tomorrow.

@Tasky - I grok that you think the cases on Narsis are weak, but this is Day 1 and cases tend to be a little fluffier at this point. Why do you think Narsis is so likely to be town?

[Thor665]

TheButtonmen basically covered my joke and my literary language flair.

American beer is indeed weak and I don't support drinking anything that looks the same going in as it does coming out.
Grok has a couple inflections but at it's most basic is translated as - Understanding between two people. (all of you should read more Heinlein)

@Tasky - if you're uncertain about Narsis' role why go through that much effort to defend him? I was pretty 'meh' on the logic of the Mysterio case - but by letting it go I get to see how people respond to it and try to sell it. By you coming out so intensely at the Narsis cases you are tying yourself strongly to a player you have just admitted you have a neutral read on. Why would you do this? The only reason (if you're town) should be that you have a scum read on one of the attackers or a town read on Narsis. Also - happy day of womb escapage.

Checking Tasky's join date does give me some personal insight into his logic though, methinks.

[Thor665]

Thor, methinks you are generally right there.

Yeah, American beer is-

I am, however, wondering certain things about, as we both stated, the motivations for attacking the entire Narsis wagon so strongly.

...never mind.


@KHG - why no vote yet?

[Thor665]

@KHG - if you're waiting for a case to become actually worth supporting what are you doing in order to help this happen?

In other words - you seem to be sitting on the sidelines and not helping, my gut says 'OMG, no scumzhnting means obvious scummorz, vote pl0x!!!' Why is my gut wrong?

[Thor665]

You've jumped from me not believing the case against Narsis is strong enough to me not wanting to lynch scum.

Where do you think I said this? (please offer the quote and explanation)

[Thor665]

@KHG - I don't see how my comments were unoriginal. I do think lack of scumhunting is a scumtell - do you see any reason to disagree with me on that?

If yes, why?

If no, could you please point out some of your scumhunting efforts (I've clearly missed them).

[Thor665]

What do you mean by unoriginal? I never used that word.

You used the word 'trite'. Trite = unoriginal. Maybe use smaller words if you're uncertain what bigger ones mean?

I don't disagree with you. I'm not going to comb through my posts and decide when I was scumhunting; you can do that yourself, if you're interested.

I have - and then I accused you of not scumhunting at all. I asked you why and you basically implied that you

were

scumhunting. I'm trying to figure out where and how and thought you might want to help me do that.

Plum's new wagon is exciting and smells of fresh leather. I don't want to buy it just yet, but I'm certainly intrigued by the features and am curious of the handling and performance.
My Narsis model doesn't feel like it's really gone through a test run yet.

@Button - well you left me alone on FakeGod too

[Thor665]

Yes, because the scum team will be all the newbie players...yes.

[Thor665]

Banal = unoriginal. But please feel free to give me your definition of banal and how you intended it in your commentary.

I used the attacking commentary because I was unamused how you were playing a definitions game to try to redefine the discussion - I still think you're trying.

You still haven't really addressed how I should find your scumhunting work yet. I still submit it's not there and all you seem to be doing currently is defending yourself (and not that well, if I may make a personal observation).

[Thor665]

What exactly about the switch from Mysterio to Narsis do you find scummy?

[Thor665]

I took trite to mean devoid of real meaning; perhaps I used it incorrectly. Do you honestly think a comment like that is the right thing to say?

This

is the question you really wanted me to answer?

If you took offense at me suggesting you didn't know what the word meant...well, you apparently didn't know what it meant and you'd asked me why I had brought up 'unoriginal' so I had to respond that I brought it up because that's what the word you used means (I can't very well say that without bringing up the actual definition of the word and suggesting maybe you should know it if you're going to use the word). Consider from my perspective - it's like someone saying I'm being untruthful, and I demand to know how I'm lying, and they respond with "when did I say you were lying?" I'm going to be annoyed they're ducking my question and trying to play word games that appear obfuscatory and obtuse in nature, aren't I?

If you took offense on a personal level I'll apologize since it wasn't particularly my purpose, but I already explained what my purpose was and I don't feel I stepped over the line into being particularly rude (I'll also note rudeness is used as a scumhunting tool by many players, so if *I'm* getting to you, then you might want to really reassess playing on this site, because I'm one of the polite ones).

If you're just asking me about using l33t speak when my 'gut' was speaking and suggesting your lack of scumhunting was scummy...well...yes, I do consider that viable, appropriate, and (more to the point), accurate.

Also - yeah, there's a pretty good chance the people voting you either don't believe your claim and/or are scum. In fact 100% of the people voting you fall into those two options. That's the way the game works.

[Thor665]

I think it's pro-scum; why would Mysterio hammer the point home that he his a townie when no one was asking for a roleclaim?

I can't think of a single reason.

you are doing exactly the same thing you earlier attacked as scummy...

I'm pretty 'meh' on most of Tasky's post - but this seems brilliant. I want it addressed for great justice!

[Thor665]

Eeesh, too many scummy players, not enough lynchings.

I'm probably game for the Chronopie or VV wagons.

Vote: Chronopie

Alternate wagons are excitement wrapped in joy.
Also, he is the most suspicious player on the KHG wagon in my opinion.

I've got to re-read the push on Mysterio again as well - potential brilliance will come from that methinks.

[Thor665]

@VV - I see little advantage to Vimes claiming at this point. If he got a role that it behooves town to have him claim, then let him claim if and as he decides to do it. If you agree info is good but that massclaims are bad clearly you understand that sometimes info isn't good.

[Thor665]

In the interests of appeasing a certain mod and their mighty prod pole;

@jimfin - I'll second Budja's request - explain reads please.
@FakeGod - please explain the VV case to me as you see it.
@VV - do you still support Vimes claim? If so, please address my last post.
@Button - who is your second top suspect (and why)

@Those not voting - whassup wit dat?

[Thor665]

I would also like to point out that I *had* posted within three days, so I feel the Mod totally jumped the gun in his prod on me (though only by 6 hours or so).

It's been the usual suspects saying the usual things since my last post, we need some new info or some new vote movement to generate new content.

@VV - he's scum, we're trying to lynch him.

Apologies, I missed your post on the 24th.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I'd still be game for a Fake God run though...

@Fake God - in a Large game it's a lot easier to vote anti-town. In a Mini it becomes dramatically more of a dangerous move. We have (more then likely) only two lynches left to hit scum with - do you really want to waste one of those on someone you don't find scummy? Really?

[Thor665]

I dunno - I'm sitting on a 3 vote wagon that's having trouble being pushed over the edge right now, why should I switch to a different wagon to make it a 3 voter. Either our plethora of wagons is because town is really lost (and with all the V/LA and low contributors I won't rule that out) or the wagon I'm on is not getting much attention from scum which means it should be stuck with. I'd rather wait and see what happens with votes when other people get back.

@Mod - I'd rather you be over vigilant with prods then under. No worries.

@Fake God - does it concern you that he has been consistently below you on any scum list I've made? You've been in my top three since game start - VV not so much. Also, I will note the most glaring issue I have with your post that is almost making me want to change votes right now.

"He's like, actively helping scum."

...that would mean he's not scum in your mind, yes?

[Thor665]

But VV's anti-town to a point where I don't think I can justify to myself (at this moment anyways) that I'm helping town if I were to place my vote on anyone else.

YOU THINK HE'S TOWN AND ARE VOTING HIM BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE HIS PLAYSTYLE!?!
OH GAWDZ, HELP ME, I'VE BEEN THROWN INTO CAPSRAGE!

I am being ungodly called to vote for you, and I don't even think you're the best lynch today - why would you do this to me?

@Button (who may or may not be on V/LA - I'm not bothering to go check) - how do you feel about your wagon mate right now? What is your logic behind the VV wagon?

VOTE COUNT

Chronopie (3): Narsis, Thor665, Plum
VasudeVa (2): TheButtonmen, FakeGod
FakeGod (2): Budja, VasudeVa
Narsis (1): jimfinn

Not Voting (2): Chronopie, Tasky

With 10 alive, 6 votes are needed to lynch.

[Thor665]

This seems suspicious [snip] for being the third vote on a wagon. Major scumtell.

Lollercoaster.

I dunno. Knee jerk reaction is this is too awkwardly obvious. Scum is going to go out of his way to defend this stance? Seem he's defending the stance because he's Newb and doesn't understand why it's scummy. That makes the heart of the "case" a newb tell, which is null, and not a scum tell. Thoughts?

[Thor665]

To clarify the above post - first sentence is mocking of jimfinn.

Second sentence is in regards to FakeGod wagon - not a "scumtell" on jimfinn.

[Thor665]

whoa dude I never said I don't like his playstyle.

Yeah, but when your case is broken down it is "you're anti-town because of the way you

play

" Taking away all the gloss and glamour you're tossing on it - you're voting him for playstyle disagreements (you feel his play hurts town). Though I am not a giant fan of VV's play I'm not sure I'm personally of the opinion that his play is not hurting town any more then I feel your play is hurting town - and neither of those beliefs is worth hanging a vote on.

Encouraging the town to lynch VIs is very scummy play.

We all have our opinions.

::facepalm::

VI lynches happen Day 1 in Minis, that's how it's done. By Day 2 after a mislynch you don't have the luxury anymore. A case needs to be more then 'Gawrsh, he's VI' on Day 2. Even VI's do scummy things - find it or get back to scumhunting other people, but stop advancing this non-case.

I dunno. Knee jerk reaction is this is too awkwardly obvious. Scum is going to go out of his way to defend this stance? Seem he's defending the stance because he's Newb and doesn't understand why it's scummy. That makes the heart of the "case" a newb tell, which is null, and not a scum tell. Thoughts?

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you.

For a man who supports the lynch of VI you're very much angling for that role from my perspective.

In short; the quoted commentary from me is an explanation of why I disagree with the case on you. I had been asked earlier by Budja ("I rest my case") to consider you as a viable vote since I'd just admitted that I found your play to be poor and potentially scummy. I then responded with the quoted commentary you're noting to explain why I disagreed with the case on you. Budja then agreed with me (and/or didn't like Chronopie's latest posts) since he shifted his vote over to the wagon I'm selling.

What's your read on Buttonmen?

[Thor665]

Okay, I'm happier about Button now. This pleases me.

He does remind me of issues I have with Narsis. I still tend to think Chrono is the smarter lynch for today considering the activities yesterday.

@Button - last(first) time we played together in the without-a-doubt-fully-balanced Dr. Horrible Mini you struck me as more aggressive then you have been thus far this game. Thoughts?

No one touched my question about who besides Chrono made EXTREMELY suspect votes on yesterday's KHG wagon. Because. I think it could be the antidote to the KHG mishaps yesterday. That is. A wagon which we can all pile onto real fast but this time actually net scum with it. ANY BITES, OR DOES NO ONE LIKE COOKIES AROUND HERE?

I considered trying - but it seemed really hard to do. Frankly I was just hoping you'd tell me and spare me the effort - I like to be told brilliant things so I can

claim them as my own

compliment the person who came up with them and cheer them on.

[Thor665]

@VV - why do you keep avoiding Button's question to you? At least admit you see it and are avoiding it so he doesn't just have to keep repeating it to you.

[Thor665]

Hell, I'm not even sure why Drunkenness = Daycop.

*cough*everything looks clearer through the bottom of the glass*cough*
I was pretty much certain Vimes would be a single shot cop of some variety due to the flavor.

@VV
@TBM

Egads, zip it, I think we know where you both stand. I don't need to read an entire page of 'no, u!' to get taht you don't trust each other.

I believe VV.
I'm 'meh' on the Tasky pick, but, hell, I was conflicted on my Tasky read as well, so c'est la vie.
I think FakeGod looks bad for reasons VV has noted, and would love it if he would address them.
I'm really conflicted on TBM, I understand his doubts, I don't understand being so intense about a player who just claimed Day Cop.
Plum is town (or is just a better player then all these anti-town players we're stuck with, but I prefer looking on the bright side)

[Thor665]

@Mod:

Can we get a prod on Thor and Chrono?

You can't get one on me!

Sorry, friends in from out of town, this game became a lower priority.

I feel more town on Narsis now.
Scom obviously have fakeclaims - any conversation otherwise is silly (Littlebottom is proof)
VV is town enough, right now. If he's scum then his bus buys him a reprieve. Personally I don't see him as that likely to be scum.
No kill suggests to my mind that either we have a protective role and VV was likely target or that scum want us to think this.

@FakeGod - I'd love to lynch you, why shouldn't I? Your actions around VV yesterday were mega-odd. Also, you haven't told us about strength yet - you only have it for the Day Phase. Yes or no question; is there a reason you're not claiming its effects?

To my mind FG or Button is the lynch today.

[Thor665]

@Buttonmen: Are you even paying attention that I'm un-counterclaimed Vimes AND Vimes is mod-confirmed to be in this game?

Whether or not Button said this - what does it matter that you are un-counterclaimed Vimes who is mod-confirmed to be in the game? What does it tell us?

@Chrono: Who did you target last night? And be useful god-damnit.

Seconded.

[Thor665]

@everyone: I forgot that Dorf'l was the power of the day when I said it could be a safeclaim, probably due to my lack of knowledge of the flavor. I am now inclined to believe his claim and that he is town.

Who do you think is scum?
Why?

[Thor665]

/not mass prodded due to pure awesomeness.

Pretty neutral on FG, not impressed by his commentary that the Dorfl claim somehow clears him. Newsflash: the Mod isn't confirming town every day

@FG - you were the best-est bud forever with VV yesterday and had understood his breadcrumbs...you also tried to lynch him because it wouldn't "look believable" if you didn't try to lynch him. What do you see as the pro-town angle in your actions here?

[Thor665]

@VV - why is Fake God saved from your lynch list today?

[Thor665]

Meh, Vote stripper strikes me as anti-town but not really pro-scum.

Do you actually think he's lying about what his day phase power does? I don't believe he is.

[Thor665]

Do you actually think he's lying about what his day phase power does? I don't believe he is.

eh, why would I make up a power that's easily tested for existence?

Yeah, I know, that's what I basically just said.

Newsflash: the Mod isn't confirming town every day

How do you know/confirm this? Do you have additional information in your role PM or something? If not, why try to discredit my claim, hmmm?

How do I confirm this?
Because an unkillable role who confirms town every day would tend to be just a

teensy

little bit unfair to the scum team, now wouldn't it?
Logically we've already had one scum receive a Day power to my mind - we know it wasn't Mysterio, I suspect it wasn't VV, that leaves you.
You didn't respond to my question about your actions towards VV.

Vote: FakeGod

[Thor665]

Since I don't know the setup, I don't know whether that's fair or not to the scum team. You don't know either, unless you are scum and knew the setup better than I do.

Okay, since you've thought about this - what sort of scum team do you think could deal with an unblockable, unkillable town confirmation every day phase that also gives town powers while also potentially having a JK as well as any other roles that may or may not be out there while also having at least one vanilla goon on their team?

[Thor665]

@Plum - when you get back would like to hear reasons you are against Buttonmen lynch.

Also, opinions on FakeGod would make me smile happily (in a masculine way)

[Thor665]

@VV - far be it for me to say that I find Button town, but I think FakeGod is aggressively trying to make me try to lynch him today. Do you see any particular reason not to lynch FakeGod that I should be noticing?

[Thor665]

Picture this! A Scum sees someone claim daycop.
Does he:
A.) Wait for a CC, wait for a result, wait for something to happen.
B.) Resist and discredit that dude and pull un-credible shit out of your ass to stop him.

I'm not sure the reverse makes that much more sense to me. I think most of this is more anti-town then scum. Let's also note that your example holds basically just as true for FG - he saw you breadcrumb Vimes so his plan was to run a case on you in order to help protect you. I do agree basically with the logic which is why I want to lynch one of them, I'm not sure I see how the logic suggests Button as the clear superior option.

[Thor665]

Um, speedlynch is cool and everything, but I thought you guys wanted me to use/test my power or something?

I mean, I can only use it today...

Your power is useless to town and I consider its application anti-town, and those who want to test it because they, for some reason, think you don't actually have the power are being silly.

It is meaningless to our situation that you can only use the power today.

So, you HAVE attacked my Vimes claim.

I don't buy that scum will get their role names announced by the mod in thread. What makes you think otherwise?

VV, Button has attacked you but it is *very* clear that he believes you have the Vimes name as a false claim - please stop harping about this because whether or not Button is scum you inventing an attack on him will not be helpful to finding out the truth. He thinks you are scum who has the fakeclaim of Vimes and that you are the only player in the game with the real or fake claim of Vimes.

I 100% expect that if Tasky had received a Day power it would have been phrased as "Cheery Littlebottom gets...cross dressing" or some other thing. It makes total sense that the scum's pre set fake claims would receive the day powers if scum indeed gets the day powers (and I am convinced they can/will/have). Do you actually believe that scum never get Dayphase powers in this game and that every day the mod is auto-confirming town?

[Thor665]

^^^
Whether he's scum or town this is good basic play advice Button just supplied jimfinn.

@jimfinn - what are your thoughts on FakeGod?
@Narsis - what are your thoughts on FakeGod?

I still put Button into my cloud of top suspects but must agree that he's correct in noting the singular focus on him thus far today - clearly I am either missing the brilliance of the case, in which case I'd like someone who is not VV to describe it to me...or perhaps we are tunneling and at least one or two players should at least acknowledge that I appear to want to lynch FakeGod instead of obvscumButton.

[Thor665]

I do, and I do believe I said as much at the time he initially did it and at the start of today. I'm just hung up on the "VV has just breadcrumbed Vimes - I'll try to make him look scummy by trying to lynch him in order to protect him" plan.

The best I can say in support of FakeGod is that it's a pretty bad plan either way, but the blatant 180 to total VV support left a bad taste in my mouth. Button at least seems to have a more consistent narrative in his suspicions which leaves me wondering if it's poor play or scum play whereas I feel the suspicion flip tends to consign FG into the scum play category.

Might I ask why you're now clearing FG and consigning jimfinn? Yesterday you seemed pretty sure FG was the scumbuddy with Button, but now it's jimfinn.

[Thor665]

To put it another way as to why Button is staying at second tier with me - I think scumButton might have been a bit more conciliatory at some point. The "attitude" towards you rings honest to me.

[Thor665]

@Narsis - Why do you think Button is more likely to be scum then Fake God?

[Thor665]

Hiding and/or claiming to have a real life only makes me want to lynch you more!

[Thor665]

more likely then FakeGod?

Exactly.

You're voting Button not FG, that shows a preference to lynch Button - why do you have that preference?

[Thor665]

Good. More Budja is good.
More Plum would be good as well.
Wouldn't mind a bit more Button either, actually, I'm pretty sure he doesn't support the lynch on himself but he hasn't really been that proactive in advancing an agenda yet.

@Narsis - egads sir, egads. That's a pretty lame bit of reasoning. What do you see as the best evidence suggesting Button is scum?

[Thor665]

Why'd he choose to bus Tasky and not Chrono?

[Thor665]

I'm just hung up on the "VV has just breadcrumbed Vimes - I'll try to make him look scummy by trying to lynch him in order to protect him" plan.

The best I can say in support of FakeGod is that it's a pretty bad plan either way, but the blatant 180 to total VV support left a bad taste in my mouth. Button at least seems to have a more consistent narrative in his suspicions which leaves me wondering if it's poor play or scum play whereas I feel the suspicion flip tends to consign FG into the scum play category.

To put it another way as to why Button is staying at second tier with me - I think scumButton might have been a bit more conciliatory at some point. The "attitude" towards [VV] rings honest to me.

@Budja - Kinda think I've already discussed that.

[Thor665]

That said, a reread of [Button] would be useful for me. I'm trying to force myself to write a college-type essay right now, so.

I really hope the essay is not for this game - if so just post the thesis statement and we'll call it square.

@Budja - what don't you understand about my Button thoughts? I've stated them in two different ways already and Plum has now just sort of provided a third rewrite. I'll add (presuming you find meta tells worth the bytes they're encrypted on) that Button tends to be an aggressive player from what limited meta on him I have, and I honestly felt more scum energy towards him earlier in the game when he was quieter - that felt more Button scum to me. If you can narrow your confusion down maybe I can answer it better.

What's the jimfinn case again? I recall thinking he was town after some of the antics Day 1 and I haven't noticed anything new that I would call scummy from the slot.

[Thor665]

@VV - was that question directed at me or someone else?

[Thor665]

I would stress meta awareness from another game we were in (and also seeing how he acts in MD).

This will be a slightly odd example, because I *was* scum in the game I'm noting, but in that game I opened with my usual RVS sentiments and used the phrase 'the RVS is now over' in a (in my opinion) obviously joking manner. TBM totally was all over my case for the rest of the Day phase and part of the next on that comment alone, he did this despite my dismissive attitude of the 'tell' and even with pretty much every obv. town player in the game calling him loony tunes for doing so. As town I would have really acted the same during RVS, and I found his whole concept to be silly and incorrect, but he's clearly a player willing to fight for the concept of what he believes is correct regardless of what other players say.

I'm not saying he's town.
I am saying that I could see townButton acting in the exact manner to your claim that I see him acting now - and that makes it less of a home run tell in my opinion.

That's why he's second for me - I *could* see him as town.
I *really* don't believe G's story about trying to lynch you in order to put some dirt on you in order to protect you from scum NKs. That story makes no sense to me. Hence he's over Button.

[Thor665]

I've explained that it is my belief that the mod is not clearing town each and every day. Since you believe Chrono is telling the truth, town has night powers as well. I do not believe that in addition to auto-clearing town every day *and* giving them day powers, which are the most potent form of power in the game, that the mod would also then give town night powers and then have even one vanilla goon on the scum team. The appearance of a vanilla goon suggests that not all scum have powers - without all scum having powers I have a hard time believing the game is balanced if the day power is also an auto-confirm.

If you agree that it seems unlikely that the day power is an auto confirm then it is easy to suppose that Scum will also get day powers, but will get them for the falseclaims that are part of their roles (note the Cheery notation in Tasky's lynch - he was both scum Chyrophase and *also* a fakeclaim Cheery - make no doubt). So then we presume that if scum get a day power the day power will be granted to the falseclaim persona.

At that point the *only* thing that FG's Dorfl claim proves is that nobody else has the Dorfl role. That's ALL it proves, it is meaningless to alignment. So at that point you need to look at the rest of his play and decide whether or not you think he's a scummy or townish player.

[Thor665]

@jimfinn - You're right, this is some strange 8:4 uber scum team vs. auto clearing bastard town mod setup. The problem is they haven't realized yet that they need to target the mod with their NK in order to win. Let me put it this way - odds are you are wrong either about the thought only townies become daypowers or you are wrong about Chrono being town.

Speaking of...

@Chrono - you alive man? I would love to hear your opinions, as our town PR, natch, as to the relevancy of the belief that only town are getting day powers.

[Thor665]

I was going to make a post concerning FakeGod's actions. Pretty much Plum then somehow went into my head, extracted the information, went back in time, and then posted it up before I even got here.

BlockedVote: FakeGod

I'm actually relatively okay with him blocking my vote because that could be considered a town play insomuch as if he's town he wouldn't want us to mislynch him and waste the turn. But his off hand 'hai, I blocked U' commentary didn't exactly fill me with a town vibe from his actions. I would expect town to also (as Budja noted) probably have at least tried to convince me with something other then 'But I'm Dorfl' as an argument especially considering I'd never suggested he wasn't Dorfl and, in fact, had told him I believed in his name and power claim.

Given Series Flavour, I'd be reluctant to believe that Dorfl is town.

Nobby, Vimes - Both Important Characters in the books.
Colon, Angua, Carrot, Detritus - Other important Characters in the books

Dorfl... Not so much. Down there with

Cheery

, Stronginthearm, A.E Pessimal etc.

I will say Dorfl is certainly a bigger (pun unintended) character then the others you list him with - he was basically the namesake character in Feet of Clay, I'm actually sad that book was his only major feature role.

In any case, I'm somewhat neutral about trying to figure out which characters would or would not be scum based off of relative importance to the series - we can start that contemplation after we see another scum flip because then it might be a bit more viable, for now, 'meh'.

[Thor665]

For those who care - I also got a notice PM about being voteblocked.

I commend molestargazer for writing it in a way that isn't clear for it being a scum or town action (t'was just a heavy blow from behind and apparently now I'm so befuddled from the impact no one will listen to my mumbling).

[Thor665]

You are correct that mod WIFOM is a dicey game. Let's just say that if Fate flips scum with a fakeclaim of Sir Not-Appearing-in-this-Feature I'd at least be willing to take a roll. And yes, I'm well aware I'm mixing up my British comedy, it's slightly fawlty of me but my day at the office was a long one.

Remember to tip your wait staff.

[Thor665]

I will note that I am not answering in a yes or no fashion because with the double negative in your question I'm suspicious it would only cause confusion, especially since the double negative is reversing my actual belief.

If you flip VT I will still not believe that the mod is only granting day powers to town players.

[Thor665]

Since I know I am town-sided (mod-confirmed to boot)

You keep saying stuff like this - it's not helping.

Could you explain *exactly* how you believe you are mod confirmed? Maybe quote the mod's comment where he says something like "Dorfl is pro-town" or something?

I sorta hate to admit it but I will agree that FG has a decent point on jimfinn, that does seem a sudden reversal.

[Thor665]

@Thor: Then you would definitely try to lynch tomorrow's mod-confirmed-player? (given I flip VT)

Depends, is tomorrow's "mod-confirmed" player as scummy as you were yesterday?

In fact, even though evidence we have (Mysterio flipping VT) clears VV and me (if the mechanic holds), [snip] You're clearly attempting to outguess the mod by guessing (against evidence I again emphasize) that mod will not confirm towns only.

You do realize (even with oddly pointed asides) that you're guilty of the exact same presuppositions you are suggesting are poor logic in me?

You are presuming off of one flip and your role (even if, let us presume it is town) that the mod will never give the day power to scum. That is the same leap I'm making, just in the other direction. You say I'm ignoring Mysterio's flip, I say you are ignoring Tasky's flip. You are being quite odd if you actually think this disagreement is the basis of me wanting to lynch you. I want to lynch you because of how scummy you acted on Day 2. I only got into this whole "mod-confirmed" discussion because that's how you chose to frame your defense.

How many VTs do you need to see flip before you abandon your logic?)

Endgame and me asking the mod about it.

However, if you are scum who already knew that mod was confirming town only, the argument you just made is the exactly the one scum_Thor would've made. (you do realize that, don't you?)

This parenthetical aside makes me wish I could hammer you. You also just admitted my case could come from either a town or scum standpoint. That makes my case a null tell. Please address the actual reasons I want to lynch you if you think I am town and don't want me to wish to lynch you. Please avoid null tells if you think I'm scum and want others to help lynch me.

Preview: I understand your misunderstanding. When I say "mod-confirmed", I mean that mod has acknowledged that I exist in the game, not "I'm auto-confirmed-town."

It's called a player list. It's on page one. He admits we all exist in this game. I don't think even bastard mods avoid that rule (though that could be a funny game)

I'll also add, yet again just to maybe make you drop this weird point, that I have openly stated I believed you had the null-vote power when you claimed it and also believed you have Dorfl in your role PM (though I believe as a FakeClaim)

[Thor665]

And since you believe you've figured out the mechanism you'd be on them saying "XXXXX is obvtown, let's lynch someone else" before they could say "My power is a triple daykill that scum are immune to"

Wow, if we automatically presume the other player will never use higher brain functions it becomes very easy to predict their actions. You're being silly.

You did notice in the post I voted you in I;
1. Defend (again) the belief that you had Dorfl in your role PM and that you had the null vote power you claimed.
2. Didn't believe that a day power auto confirmed you as town.
3. Pointed out how you'd avoided my questions to you regarding your actions to VV on Day 2.

You've re-written 1. so that I now apparently hold the opposite belief in your mind.
You've focused on 2. as though you *are* confirmed town and I'm crazy to think otherwise.
And you've continued to avoid and ignore 3.

[Thor665]

I already answered it in my #590 and you apparently didn't read it. Please read my posts.

I'll admit I didn't recall you answering it.

Do you have any other town games where you've tried this particular gambit before? Town games where you've run a fake case on someone you are almost certain is town?

Thor, tell me where I'm wrong with this above logic next time you post. k?

Yet, he says whether he votes him or not will depend how scummy this new player is.
^^^
Your inability to understand the validity of this point is where you're going wrong. Whether or not I believe scum are amongst the people who receive day powers does not preclude me from also applying basic scumhunting techniques to decide if a given player is going to be scum. You seem to believe because I have stance 'A' that I am no longer allowed to hold stance 'B' despite them not being mutually exclusive.

[Thor665]

Because if you truly believed that mod isn't going to confirm town only, then by process of elimination, your next target would be the next-mod-confirmed player.

I'm not saying the player who gets a day power *has* to be scum, I'm saying he *could* be scum. There is nothing in my logic that would obligate me to vote for a player simply because he gets the day power. What are you even talking about here?

[Thor665]

Just because your belief system is hardline (they *have* to be town) doesn't mean mine is (they *could* be scum or town). Your insistence to the contrary is where we're having the disconnect and your obtuseness when I've already said as much is preventing your understanding. This debate is going nowhere fast and has already arrived - feel free to draw what conclusions you will and to try to convince whoever you wish, I'm done with it.

@Button - I agree with your assessment of FG but will add the modifier; VV caught scum. That's a hefty distinction. Also, what do you think of FG's brand new invented strategy to try for the first time this game wherein he tries to make a case on a player he thinks is town with a power role?

@VV what's the case on jimfinn again? (I'm willing to search isos if you know who made it and don't want to retype, I'm just not willing to search the thread)

[Thor665]

For my two cents; I dunno. He seems really convicted and usually I'd tend to suspect a slight bit of appeasement from scum - though that's a rough tell to use. But the possibility is there for newb town who doesn't understand the scumtells he's blundering into. Take for example how he keeps calling me out for "not answering his question" when I quite blatantly did - twice. That's sort of weird any way you cut it. I think it's mostly a lot of newbie energy sloshing around which is always a pain to wade through.
His Button vote/unvote reasons were all really weird.
His stated plan about making a case on VV in order to "protect" him is terribad and very scummy, I have a hard time believing even a newb would think this was a good idea. Mafia 101 - don't try to lynch town. They still teach that, right?

I don't feel as confident on him as I did before, but I don't want to lynch Button today and I'm pretty lukewarm on the jimfin case. To my mind it's jimfinn or FG at this point unless somebody has noticed something I'm totally missing. I probably owe it to myself to glance over jimfinn again as I know I went and cleared him Day 1 for some reason (a wagon run on him I believe) and I really haven't considered him much since then. Should have time to do this tomorrow and will report back with exciting findings (or just eat pecan pie, flip a coin and pretend like I do )

[Thor665]

I have a bad feeling that he's Town and he's being genuine. + I agree with the auto-clearing of Town with Powers every day. However, it's not as imbalanced as you people make it seem. There was a chance that Town won't figure that out, but we did so it's cool.

I'm toying with the idea of FG being misguided town.
I'm so against the idea that the powers will only go to vanilla town it's hard to describe. I'll use an emoticon instead. I may have used the wrong emoticon.

@FakeGod: Did you honest to god see my breadcrumb and STILL proceeded to make a huge case on me? Or were you just bluffing as Town? That's one of the big reasons why Thor wants you dead(and was the big reason I called you obvscum D2.)

Good posting.
Though he has already proudly admitted this on multiple occasions.

@Button - how does your FG/VV scum team feel at the moment? Is the above by VV more likely concerned town or coaching buddy. I tend to be against coaching buddy simply because I always hear it touted as a scumtell and I don't think I've ever seen an example of it ever. Thoughts?

[Thor665]

VV - stop trying to swing me onto Button's belief system, I really don't need the stress today.

As far as the jimfinn wagon I already commented on this;

"To my mind it's jimfinn or FG at this point unless somebody has noticed something I'm totally missing. I probably owe it to myself to glance over jimfinn again as I know I went and cleared him Day 1 for some reason (a wagon run on him I believe) and I really haven't considered him much since then. Should have time to do this tomorrow and will report back with exciting findings (or just eat pecan pie, flip a coin and pretend like I do )"

I'll get around to it - I'm honestly putting it off because I stopped having fun re-reading games after about five months of playing. It usually just puts me into WIFOM insanity and that's not a good place to be.

[Thor665]

Budja's a conversation for tomorrow, in my opinion. If you figure out what's twigging you please post it though.

@VV - if you're lukewarm on the jimfinn wagon who would you rather we lynch if you're buying into my thoughts on TBM?

[Thor665]

Hmmm - re-read jimfin (aka - quick scanned his iso) I see him as pretty townie Day 1 but will admit his posting quality kind of degrades after that. I'm forced to still agree with FG about jim's shift to him being odd as jim held very clear and solid reads on other players for quite a while and was good about stating them out loud. Of course, in between that shift was when FG vote blocked me and that is the sort of action that can generate an attitude shift.

I'll have to re-read/scan FG tomorrow to see if I can spot that Tasky unconnection VV mentioned (aka feel free to just link it for me to spare me the effort). Still consider his "wagon to protect" as pretty damning.

[Thor665]

Frankly, I'm starting to buy into the idea that FG is actually obtuse enough to hold the beliefs and actions he claims to. jimfinn's only real connection to Tasky that I see is how Tasky wanted off the wagon when it started to build steam - hard tell to discern.
I still don't grok why FG can't be buddies with Tasky.
Odds are my FG issue comes into better focus tomorrow.

Vote jimfinn

[Thor665]

@ Mod - I'm voting jimfinn

No you're not. -M

[Thor665]

Oh, I see, good dawd, the friggin' colon.

Vote: jimfinn

[Thor665]

...well, that would make more sense then him getting psychotic about the colon, now wouldn't it?

Um...I just ...uh *really* want you all to understand where I'm coming from today despite the vote block.
Yes.

[Thor665]

Town does need to get this together and get us a lynch, today is deadline.

[Thor665]

@ Mod - I'm voting jimfinn

No you're not. -M

Yeah, shame on me. That said, I will note, just for future consideration, that if someone has a blocked vote maybe they should go in some sort of alternate category then 'not voting' since it's not so much that I'm not voting but rather I cannot vote or that my vote doesn't count. Just a thought to contemplate in the future for those of us who are in multiple games as at a quick glance this morning I just thought I'd unvoted or hadn't placed a vote or something.

[Thor665]

I agree with massclaim.

I'd want it to be popcorn.

I'd prefer for Button or jimfinn to go first.

[Thor665]

"I am aligned with the city watch and win when all mafia are dead."

[Thor665]

@CHrono - I dunno, but I already find the power really amusing.

[Thor665]

A) I hadn't noticed any effect to the quality of the posting today (oops, sorry jimmy)

B) I'm fine with it. Popcorn away.

[Thor665]

We still need FakeGod, then we can have a massclaim, then we can see what brilliance Budja has available, and then we can get some rope out.

[Thor665]

Name: Angua

Role: Neighbor (neither I nor partner know other's alignment)

Next (final): Plum.

@VV - because it needs to be done today, partly to allow me to mock FG slightly, and partly because I want to assess Chrono more.

[Thor665]

Thank heaven, I needed a giant bottle of wine today. [/sarcasm]

[Thor665]

@Chrono - have you name claimed yet? If not, please do.

@Plum

[Thor665]

@Budja - why Plum?

FakeGod was still hugging up to his 'only vanilla gets da powers' spiel, which still makes me want to lynch him.

Something is odd with the VV/Chrono situation considering neither of them are dead yet. Want to consider them.

I'm sorta neutral on Budja, though I will say he's looked more townish in the QT then the main thread.

Narsis flipping Doc makes us slightly heavy on town PRs considering we also get day powers. So either scum get day powers too, scum have some awesome powers no one has yet noticed, or some of the PRs are lying liars.

Vote: Fake God

[Thor665]

1 mislynch and then we're in mylo tomorrow.

[Thor665]

@Button - I'll reserve my opinion there just for a bit, still haven't heard from the less then true deity yet.

@Plum
@Button

The PR situation is dicey. Narsis as a NK suggests that scum either were targeting 'non-likely' protects or that they were wanting us to think they were.
I find the Chrono/VV thing confusing from a couple of angles.

VV/Chrono are both town.

- scum disbelieve(?) the JK and try to kill VV anyway instead of the JK. Seems unlikely.

VV/Chrono are both scum.

- we know who both the scum are and they opted to bus their remaining buddy and trust in the strength of their fakeclaims. Seems unlikely.

VV town/Chrono scum

- Chrono 'claimed' protect on VV. Either scum opted to nokill in order to add credence to his claim (an odd move) or scum was caught by surprise when VV was protected anyway (by Narsis, our Doc) Need to re-read Narsis and Chrono interactions around time of VV protection discussion.

VV scum Chrono town.

- Scum no killed to sell Chrono on VV town without knowing for sure that Chrono would protect him (risky). Scum may have also targeted a different player and been caught by Narsis Doc.

None of the potentialities seem like homeruns to me currently. Need to re-read Narsis a bit. WOuld tend to want to lynch Chrono first of the VV/Chrono pairing. Still think FG is a good option.

[Thor665]

That's L-1.

@Budja - again, why Plum?

[Thor665]

You've successfully listed a lot of possibilities.

What are your opinions about which possibility we are in?

As a snarky aside - now that we believe PRs can receive day powers why do you also now believe scum can as well?

[Thor665]

Could you please quote the Tasky post you believe clears FG?

Woosh on the rest of that.

[Thor665]

Hmmm, big parroty case on FG and he...FOSes him.

Then makes a case on and votes Chrono.

I'll agree it makes me feel better about Chrono - not sure why it should make me feel better about FG. Seems to be just as likely distancing as it is trying to help cast down a townie. Anything in particular sell you on that one?

[Thor665]

drunkeness = daycop made perfect sense.

Reread the fluff when mole gave it to him. (paraphrasing here) 'staring through it, everything looked clearer through the bottom of the glass'. When I read that my first thought was honestly cop or watcher.

I'm dismissive of this angle of your case, if he's scum certainly we can do better then "but Drunkeness doesn't makes sense as Day Cop"

[Thor665]

Explain why you were totally against the Town daypowers theory and why you were constantly pushing that theory D3.

I explained why I was against it multiple times yesterday - it struck me as unbalancing in every sense of the word.
I constantly pushed this because it was what I believed and because the person I wanted to lynch (FG) chose to use that as the entire basis of his defense.
I will note I've already been proven half right in my original supposition, insomuch as now it's clear PRs get the day powers as well.
FG has even come out and claimed scum on people who've received daypowers now.
Why are you so convinced that scum don't?

Also, the TBM defense. I don't really think it's very Townie to defend TBM like you did yesterday, especially since you really had no reason to.

"I don't really think it's townie of you to defend FG like you are today, especially since you really have no reason to"

I didn't like the case on him and I didn't want him lynched yesterday. It's no different then the current FG situation. If you think it is explain how and then I'll bother trying to justify my insane actions more.

[Thor665]

@VV

Scum have plenty to gain from pushing the theory 'Town get daypowers' if 1-2 scum have received daypowers. That's how you get yourself a coast to endgame.
As I said, the theory was pushed because that was the grounds FG chose to defend himself on. I also pushed his actions towards you the day of your claim - his response to that was lacking, and I kept bringing that up as well.

If you take in game actions over meta as far as defense goes, that's your business. I don't agree with your reasons to defend FG and you don't agree with mine to defend Button. That's the way the game works, neither is telling of alignment until the person we're defending flips. There's a reason the chainsaw defense isn't a be all, end all scumtell - even according to the guy who 'invented' it, and both of us aren't even in chainsaw territory.

How do you define my defense of TBM as a "hard" defense? At what point did I cross the line into unreasonable defense of him?

[Thor665]

@VV

1. I never called you scum, you're being silly.
2. You can claim your evidence is more "real" all you want (I still don't buy how Tasky FOSing FG equates to FG=town).
3. You still didn't actually narrow down where I crossed the line in my TBM defense - you just claimed recalling that I did. (without recalling, apparently, that I've been comfortable with a TBM lynch, I've just had a preference towards a FG one which is what I was arguing yesterday) so if you're a magical picky scum, then theoretically I must be one too. Again, you're being silly and hyper aggressive over points that are nowhere near as strong as you seem to believe they are.

[Thor665]

I don't mind it, I prefer the FG lynch - I think he's more likely scum. As we discussed yesterday, your chief point against TBM (aggressive attack of you and your claim) struck me (via evil meta in my drastic defense of him) that your home run tell was more of a 'meh' tell. I then countered that FG's weirdness about you around your claim was equally weird to Button, and in my opinion moreso - hence why I wanted to lynch him. Then, somewhere in there, we all drank peyote and lynched jimfinn.

[Thor665]

FG's flip won't really give us much connection since everyone hates him.

...and maybe they hate him for a reason?

Is your read on me really so muddled you need a TBM lynch to clarify it? What's the logic for TBM outside of getting a read on me?

[Thor665]

So you pretty much believe TBM is town then?

[Thor665]

@FakeGod - second question. Why do you want to consider the lynch of obv.town Budja who received a day power because he's town?

[Thor665]

In case I'm wrong and scum really do get day powers.

What do you think of lynching you or VV instead? Why is Budja the obv. scum of the three possible scum who've received a day power?

[Thor665]

Unvote: FakeGod

This is going to take some rumination methinks.

[Thor665]

Hahahah. VV continues to act jumpy around comments I am making that have *nothing* to do with me believing he is scum or trying to get people to vote him.

Ironically, this second one actually has me doubting my read on him now.

Stop it, VV, just stop it.

[Thor665]

@Plum - your preference of Chrono is based on the 'day before' situation only?

To perhaps clarify - you do or don't find Chrono more scummy then FG/Budja?

[Thor665]

I'm slightly conflicted. I still consider FG pretty durn scummy, but some of his more recent posts have had a townish ring that made me unvote him.
Chrono's continued survival is odd.
I'm just doing a slight WIFOM induced wobble step at the moment as I try to consider why scum's actions have been what they've been - I feel like we have a few too many "pro-town" players left and am trying to puzzle out why Narsis was the target last night.

Meh, in any case I'd rather lynch FG or Chrono today then Budja, VV, or TBM and I'm getting a slight town vibe from FG and the only thing that spared Chrono for me was the PR claim.

Verily doth I use Mjolnir! (No Whammy, no Whammy...)

Vote: Chronopie

[Thor665]

That's certainly a possibility. I was debating if they'd "figured" Narsis - or just figured him as a low priority defense that looked town, or were maybe just trying to enhance Chrono's fakeclaim. Depending on the flip I might have a better idea of the angle they're working which would please me.

[Thor665]

::puts away party gear slowly and backs out of room::

I'm scared though, if he flips scum that means FG was actually telling the truth about how he reacted to VV and that *terrifies* me.

[Thor665]

I don't see why that would terrify you, it undermine multiple reads?

No, just the idea that someone legitimately thought of it as a good idea to do while being town.

I'm assuming at this point that either some someone widely accepted as town is scum thus they are keeping a support base alive

or

there is two scum left.

Why not both?

[Thor665]

Every time FG says mod confirm I want to reach through cyberspace and swat the back of his head.

Plum is pretty obv. town.
Budja has a plan he wants to get on the table.
I'm going to go re-read some of the VV/TBM stuff from Day 2.
Might even get crazy aggressive and do a bit of vote analysis for fun, won't do that till late weekend though due to laziness and work.

[Thor665]

^ Plum is confirmed town.

Actually that's a good point, she can only be scum if you're scum, which is what I was considering - but since there's only one scum left that makes her confirmed. (and scum killed...VV?)

New considerations for me, back later after food and theatre to see if brilliance ensues.

[Thor665]

My quick glance vote consideration seems to suggest FG is, bewilderingly, town. I'll post up my reasoning for this later in pretty colors.

Vote: TheButtonmen

[Thor665]

@FG - we're confirmed lovers. We actually don't know the other player's alignment.

[Thor665]

TBM - your first angle of discussion is seriously issue with the likelihood of a 3 man scum team?

Doc is weak
doublevoter is weak (and in my opinion slightly anti-town most of the time)
unknown alignment lovers is a bit of a mindscrew and, if we're both town, a liability (in any case - it's not a strong town role, or even a medium strength one)
one shot day cop is a strong role.

Scum needs more then 2 goons + unknown to counter this? Frankly, after writing that all out I'm actually feeling better about Budja just because 2 goons + lover goon actually seems like it would be screwing more with the mafia then should be allowed by making them too weak.

Also, let's be frank - if there are four scum then we are in mylo right now after two correct lynches AND a successful kill block. That would be one of the most broken setups I have ever seen.

We have a 3 man scum team.

[Thor665]

Y'know, I was working on actually gathering up vote counts from the mod but as I did I realized I'm dramatically too lazy to really want to collate them and color code them for clarity. I'm not really a vote analysis sort of guy anyway, so here's my thing about FG;

Remember that post VV (hi VV, I'mma mock you in the dead topic now!) but do you remember that post that VV was championing as the one that Tasky made that "cleared" Chrono when he rolled in and FOSed FG and then voted Chrono? Yeah, we now know he chose to bus his partner. The big question here is do we think he had the brass tacks to bus both partners in the same post?

The biggest thought against the Button wagon for me is this;

Day 1 Lynch

KHG

(6):

Plum

,

TheButtonmen

,

Chronopie

,

Budja

,

Tasky

,

Mysterio

Narsis

(3):

VasudeVa

, Thor665,

jimfinn

Mysterio

(2):

Narsis

, FakeGod

Not Voting (1):

KHG

Mysterio double voted to put KHG through. Do we really think it took a town double vote and all three scum to get KHG lynched? If either of the blue names are scum then that's what that means.

Unvote: TheButtonmen

I want to do a bit more research on this, but I seem to recall reading an analysis once where it showed the odds of having all three scum on a Day 1 town lynch in a 12 man was an exceedingly small likelihood (I think actually it was more likely to have no scum on the lynch). I'm going to try some google-fu for this. Wouldn't mind some discussion on my thoughts here.

VOTE COUNT

TheButtonmen (1): FakeGod

Not Voting (4): Budja, Plum, TheButtonmen, Thor665

[Thor665]

@Budja - FG is apparently not a suspect in your mind, why is this?

[Thor665]

@Buttonmen - just curious, why aren't you voting FG right now? The read might help for getting evidence, but the logical town play from your perspective seems like it would be obvious - am I missing something?

[Thor665]

@FG - if the shoe fits.

What are your thoughts on my reason for unvoting TBM as presented at the top of the page (with pretty colors)?

[Thor665]

Go for it, still waiting for some of those thoughts you promised. I'm hardly clever enough to claim absolute opinion.

[Thor665]

Yeah, there's also the Tasky return post where he FOSed FG and then voted Chrono - bussing both your buddies is not that common, and though I think he was gunning for town points with the apparent Chrono lynch I can't imagine he'd want to set up his buddy as the secondary thereafter.

[Thor665]

Town wanting to lynch one half of a lover pair with 5 alive seems a pretty daft play - if lovers are a lynch then we're the lynch tomorrow.

I support Button lynch.

I'll hammer him tomorrow so town has a bit more time to ramble if they want, but I just want the flips at this stage.

[Thor665]

I also support the Budja lynch tomorrow - I've gone town on FG now. More the fool me.

[Thor665]

No whammy, no whammy...

Vote: TheButtonmen

[Thor665]

^ Should we both survive the night, I will self-hammer.

Just making sure my thoughts on FG are known, regardless.

[Thor665]

The flavour was good. I liked your attempt at capturing Pratchett's style*.
I am surprised with the way you assigned PR's, I really was expecting them to be handed out by scum at the end . FG was right for the wrong reasons.

*including footnotes.

Very much this. All of it

I was actually dropping crumbs too at the end, but they were attempts to make sure Budja went to the block and not FG, as I had sussed to FG being town by that point (though I still hated the bulk of his play )

TBM played a pretty solid game (oddly enough I thought he looked most townish when assaulting VV - more the fool I), if only he could have gotten Budja to investigate him I think it would have caused serious problems for town in the late game and gotten a scum win as we probably would have done FG and then Thor/Budja.

Very fun game, would happily play with all of you again.

[Thor665]

I really wanted to kill Thor but never got the chance to.

But I'm universally loved, I should never be the night kill.

I'd think come Day 3 I would have been a bit more friendly towards the scums just because I couldn't believe the town-confirm mechanic (still almost can't)

@FG - totally agree with you here, if you hadn't done that weird action on VV I'm not sure you would have even particularly got on my scum radar, and it was your later play that convinced me again of you being town (took a while though, I came pretty darn close to not unvoting you when I did).

[Thor665]

I might need to run that game sometime.

[Thor665]

@Budja - y'know, looking back at that QT, I'm almost embarrassed you and I weren't an even better force for town - we were pretty dead to rights on every call we made.

[Thor665]

Yeah, Masons are like in-game Hydras. I think they're fast becoming my favorite role after vanilla town, as it's sorta like being VT but with a sounding board.

[Thor665]

Bah, it's a Large Theme - I can always replace in.