Mini 1023 - City Watch Mafia - Game Over!

[FakeGod]

I, [recruit's name], do solemnly swear by [recruit's deity of choice] to uphold the Laws and Ordinances of the city of Ankh-Morpork, serve the public trust, and defend the subjects of His/Her [delete whichever is inappropriate] Majesty [name of reigning monarch] without fear, favour, or thought of personal safety; to pursue evil-doers and protect the innocent, laying down my life if necessary in the cause of said duty, so help me [aforesaid deity]. Gods Save the King/Queen [delete which is inappropriate].

[FakeGod]

"Permission to lurk hardcore, sir?"

"Granted, private. I'll see you sometimes next month. Oh, and be sure to check in every three days to avoid prods. Dismissed."

__________________________________

Will join wagons for food.

[FakeGod]

Will join wagons for food.

Vote: jimfinn

"Ice cream."

[FakeGod]

@Button: your avi is terrifying.

Random Trivia

: I never miss with Random Lynches, but

if and only if

the town follows me blindly

without

reason or logic.

Preview: I would think in a smaller game (7 or 9) you would want more discussion since it's easier to accidentally lynch someone (due to smaller number of people required to lynch).

[FakeGod]

You are the 665th Thor...

[FakeGod]

I'm a real god, obvious fake claim by him is obvious.

lol

[FakeGod]

One of the games I'm finishing up in had a double voter who didn't appear in the Vote Count.

In my opinion, Mysterio should've experimented with votes a bit first to see what kind of DV mechanic was in place.

And, is the double vote the power of "CHARISN'TMA"? In which case Mysterio would be Cpl. Nobbs?

I made the connection right away, but I wasn't gonna say anything in fear of revealing more info to the mafia.

Preview: O never mind.

[FakeGod]

I don't understand. If your vote actually counts double, it's the most logical thing to have it appear in a vote count. Unless my irony detector is off.

And, is the double vote the power of "CHARISN'TMA"? In which case Mysterio would be Cpl. Nobbs?

The bolded line answers the first line. And yes, I'm Corporal "Nobby" Nobbs. Don't stare at my boils, please.

And.....apparently that's how our DVoter outed himself in 4 pages.

I would prefer if we stopped any more speculations about roles/powers/mechanics/etc.

[FakeGod]

@FakeGod - 'hey guys, let's stop discussing roles so early (ignore the fact that the only reason it's happening is because someone chose to claim and don't address that aspect)' <---trying to act towny. (oh boo-hoo, "our" DV is outed).

(raises eyebrow) alright, if you want to discuss powers/roles/mechanics, go right ahead.

Only reason I said it is because (in the broadest sense) I think I figured out how this Mini Theme game is going to work (and couple other info), but I'm not sure whether the mafia did. Hence me discouraging discussing powers/roles/mechanics.

And.....apparently that's how our DVoter outed himself in 4 pages.

how can you be sure Mysterio has the same alignment as you?

No one cc'd him, and I was assuming Col. Nobbs is town-sided.

But that

is

a good point.

Unvote; Vote: Trasky.

There's no one named Trasky though....

[FakeGod]

This makes me feel little better about you, to be honest.

Which one? The falling into "trap" or Narsis admitting he got nuthing but nulls?

[FakeGod]

No one pressed Mysterio at all for any information, yet he writes:

Well, I guess I don't need to hide it anymore. Yes, my power is only good for today. Tomorrow I will revert back to a VT. Hence me not really caring about claiming early, since getting NK would only mean that town lost a VT.

Bold is mine.

KHG makes a great point. There was absolutely no need for Mysterio's actions so far in my opinion. This is very suspicious.

Question: Does FakeGod have any idea of the game's flavor?

I thought I did, but not anymore.

I'm very,

very

confused now.

And on top of that, I haven't read the series at all.

[FakeGod]

I think the only way massclaim helps town is if scum haven't been given fakeclaims. I haven't found a mod yet who doesn't give fake claims in theme games.

I just finished one actually.

One of the mafia who turned out to be the lyncher target claimed to be lyncher's role name. It didn't go well.

[FakeGod]

In the Harry Potter Mafia I just finished, scum won perfectly because of RCs...

I think we shouldn't RC unless it's necessary.

[FakeGod]

@Mysterio: It seems that you want to rely on examining claims to find scum, and this approach almost completely relies on outguessing the mod (whether he has provided well thought-out fake claims for the scum, including vulnerable town roles (such as a beloved princess), and how closely he is following the flavor)

In the Harry Potter Mafia I mentioned earlier, Voldemort (scum) fakeclaimed Dumbledore and was able to play the game risk-free, while town, finding out that we have Dementors/other "evil" creatures in the game, lynched bunch of Town PRs in quick succession.

Plus, I don't see how massclaim will help town. Say scum have major characters like Vimes as their safeclaim, so he claims Vimes. How can we, town, tell the difference? What will most likely happen is that "Vimes" will walk around free without a fear of getting lynched.

And scum might fakeclaim major characters anyway in order to out the real major characters.

There's just too much manipulations and luck-based stuff going on for a mass claim. We shouldn't mass claim.

[FakeGod]

Yes, mass RCing does assume that the flavor plays a role in the game. I've never been in a theme game where the flavor meant nothing, but perhaps that's how things are done here. Obviously, if the majority do not agree, then it's pointless for me to try and pressure jimfinn. And with so many votes on him, scum could jump in and hammer. So, I'll

Unvote: jimfinn

.

With so many votes on jim? When you posted this, jim had 3 players voting him.

How could scum "jump in and hammer"? I think you're just trying to find an excuse to unvote him and keep your vote open.

And I'm going to agree with KGH that DoubleVote power doesn't necessarily mean that he is town.

Unvote, Vote: Mysterio

[FakeGod]

Oops, I thought Tasky was voting for jim beforehand. (I counted his unvote against jim wagon)

EBWOP: jim had 4 players voting him.

[FakeGod]

@Mysterio: It's true that jim had lots of votes on him, but I've never seen a RVS wagon result in an actual lynch on this site. I don't believe he was in serious danger.

[FakeGod]

Who

Doesn't

know enough of the flavour to pick the odd one out in this list?

Vimes
Carrot
Colon
Nobbs
Angua
Detrius
Weatherwax

ummmm..........

[FakeGod]

Weatherwax?

His/her name's much longer than others'.......

[FakeGod]

vote FakeGod or Narsis

Vote: Narsis

Possible buddying attempt with Thor.

What's wrong with making the most of my vote? Narsis isn't in any danger(yet.), and I'm curious what he has to say for himself with a gun to his head.

VV says Narsis isn't in any danger at all while saying Narsis has a gun to his head.

A contradiction.

[FakeGod]

Can't figure out how to do more than one quote in a post, but I'd take a look at FakeGod's iso #11-13 in which he claims that role claims first help the town, then help the scum, then are very luck based and still scum leaning.

in my ISO #11, I merely pointed out a counter-example to what Thor said. Nowhere does it saying me suggesting a mass claim.

And if it wasn't clear to you, I'm against massclaiming.

And please do not assume that I claimed things. If you're unsure of what I meant, just ask me to clarify.

[FakeGod]

just a small question...what do you see that is so win in my wagon?

You don't see the blatant scum energy flinging from your pores? It got on my face and I wiped it off and saw my napkin was covered in win...*liquid* win. (that and your entrance self vote, you claimed "trap" that revealed a null tell (whoopee) and then you call everyone null as far as reads go and sort of gently drift onto the big wagon of the moment...well, all of that and the napkin - the case is mostly about the napkin)

dude, too much imagery.

I'm disgusted.

[FakeGod]

@jim: As I said before, I was merely pointing out a counter-example that came to my mind. It was vivid in my game as 1) it just finished, 2) town never mislynched, 3) a scum fakeclaimed another player's role name. It was a perfectly fitting counter-example.

Having said that, it was the only game I played where mod didn't give out safeclaim list to scum. (actually, I think the mod did, but he forgot to give it to the guy who replaced in as mafia).

Rereading my post again, I guess I could've added in a disclaimer or something at the end to clarify my position, and I'm sorry if my poor word choice caused you any confusion, but I'm going to stay firmly with my position that I'm against massclaiming and have always been.

[FakeGod]

aww Thor, I thought we had an understanding going on, us being gods and all.

I'm bit busy, so I'll have to V/LA for today.

[FakeGod]

VV's being wishy-washy and

trigger

rope-happy as Bmen pointed out.

I don't mind the rope-happy part, because it at least means that he's willing to commit a vote in his stances, but his opinions/suspicions/foses/votes are not very straight.

@Jim: I actually have a fairly town read on KHG (mainly because our views have coincided many times). Thought I agree he shouldn't have asked those rolefishing questions that Plum have pointed out.

[FakeGod]

@VV: Button already did, but the main point is that you're fosing someone, convinced 70% that someone else is scum, and yet voting another player.

[FakeGod]

KHG wagon is interesting and all, but up until pg 7 or so my and his train of thought mirrored each other well.

so I thought because our thinkings are pretty similar, our alignments should be too.

Anyways, I'll pass on the wagon.

[FakeGod]

@Plum: Sure, no problem.

I'll linearize the KHG wagon's progress with my thoughts to them.

It starts around pg. 10, when Plum first points out rolefishing questions KHG asked. I agreed in 242 that KHG shouldn't have asked those questions, but I still had an overall town read on him. (maybe bit newb-town, if you take it into account that he's a newer player)

Budja asks why did KHG switch fast from Mysterio to Narsis, to which KHG simply responds

I'm not voting for Narsis right now. I said I'd like to hear from him. Apparently, my not voting for him is scumlike, and if I voted for him, that would be scumlike.

He is shown to be cautious and doesn't want to draw attention to himself. And he should realize that just because he's not voting for him doesn't mean he's completely clear. But I still think that he is more likely to be defensive newb-town then scum.

Plum responds to KHG with 246,

KHG, bringing up questions, even with that sort of disclaimer, is partly asking for answers to the question. Mentioning the questions does constitute rolefishing-prodding. What, did you expect to let the questions hang in the air - and you didn't say explicitly that they shouldn't be answered. You just said you didn't necessarily mean they should be at that point - it's speculating about info and prodding for answers - directly asking Mysterio about his role and powers - with a little disclaimer. The tone and intent still had to do with questions which were not put there to sit and look pretty. They were there to get speculation out in the open and directly increase the chances of everyone talking about it, especially Mysterio, the only person with the info you asked about. Disclaimer or not. It had distinct overtones of rolefishing. You directly asked questions about Mysterio's role. That counts as asking Mysterio for information, or pushing him to reveal information. This wouldn't be egregious if you didn't turn around directly and call Mysterio out for having given the info. You asked the questions. If you'd said 'oh shoot, I shouldn't have asked those questions because they shouldn't have been discussed right now' that would have been one thing. But you refuse to shoulder the weight of having asked some of the questions which caused the revelation of the info by Mysterio. That's hypocritical and opportunistic.

I am a VT = I don't have any abilities.
I'm a Townie = Look guys I am so completely and totally Town, really super Town!

The latter can be scummy; the former is by itself neutral. You tried to equate Mysterio's statement of #1 for the inherently suspect nature of #2.

My main problems with you aren't your desire to wait on a Narsis vote in and of itself. However, my desire not to move my vote yet springs from the fact that my reason for voting Narsis was related to his lack of participation, bag full of nullreads followed by a jump on a popular bandwagon for a mediocrely explained (at best) reason EDIT: Actually I think I understand it better now, and I might feel a little better about it. I need to gauge whether or not he's still avoiding contribution and content-posting or not, and if he posts, does it seem to be honest scumhunting or not.

After examining the text, I came to the conclusion that Plum is basically explaining her rolefishing accusation against KGH for the first part with a statement example (I didn't get the example, unfortunately; I don't see much difference between "I'm VT" and "I'm Town", not including the = "stuff"), and the second part explains her vote against Narsis.

Then Pg. 11 began.

KHG maintains that he didn't join the Narsis wagon because he didn't vote Narsis. Same position as he took before.

Budja comes in to say in 264,

@KHG, Whether you are voting for him or not in a technicality. I want to know why are you interested in voting for Narsis rather than Mysterio who you looked quite happy to vote just a post earlier.
(i.e Why did you change your focus to Narsis?)

I praise his point, since Budja reminds KHG that it's just a technicality, but the intent to vote is more important here.

KHG responds by arguing the importance of a vote and that there is a difference between intent to lynch and wanting to hear a case, which, while do I agree that votes are very important, I think it's pro-town to vote someone, because votes, unlike opinions that get buried under other posts, stay as solid evidence of the said person's stance at given moment in time. I do not approve of KHG's unwillingness to commit a vote on someone.

Thor joins in and accuses KHG in 267.

@KHG - if you're waiting for a case to become actually worth supporting what are you doing in order to help this happen?

In other words - you seem to be sitting on the sidelines and not helping, my gut says 'OMG, no scumzhnting means obvious scummorz, vote pl0x!!!' Why is my gut wrong?

Good point. Except for the word choices, I would've said same had I've been around to respond.

KHG repeats that Narsis isn't worth voting for.

Plum asks KHG directly then who is his top suspect in 269, which KHG replies that he doesn't have one.

Unfortunately for KHG, not having any suspects often translates to not scumhunting.

Button joins in with 273,

@KHG:

Why do you always assume they are talking about Narsis when they mention scum hunting and whats your main reason for disliking the Narsis wagon?

In first point, Button points out a possible scumslip, but I don't like his second point, because Button unfairly treated "not believing Narsis's case enough to vote him" to "I'm against Narsis wagon". Still, it's KHG's fault for being wishywashy and not commiting.

after that, people start voting KHG.

After considering these points, I decided not to vote for him. If it was day 2, I probably voted for him, because inconsistencies mean much more in day 2 than in day 1, but seeing that I originally had a town read on him (before he began being all wishywashy), I'm going to give this wagon a pass.

[FakeGod]

Good night KHG

[FakeGod]

Whoever this Vimes person is probably should claim his power. It looks like this is the games mechanic. All VTs then random townies get power roles.

Does the Charisntmha thingy D1 have anything to do with double voting? Any theories on what drunkenness does?

Why State Obvious Things? Just In Case Mafia Didn't Understood???

And WHY would you POSSIBLY want these information?

I don't see a logical answer you could make to that question that somehow outweighs the consequences: the mafia also obtaining these info.

Vote: VV

For all the same reasons as yesterday and the recent role fishing.

Not really sure if I can call it rolefishing though, it's more a long the lines of role harpooning or perhaps role torpedoing.

Vote: VasudeVa

, I'd say role torpedoing, with a nuclear warhead.

[FakeGod]

@VV: I don't like the way you disregard Buttonmen's case as just a wiki-tell, because 1) then you're implying things in the wiki are to be disregarded, and 2) frankly, rolefishing is almost always anti-town, no matter what the wiki says.

@Button: could you explain post 308? Weren't you aware that Mysterio claimed Double Voter?

preview: ninja'd by Button

[FakeGod]

@VV: Quit misrepping me. I never encouraged wiki-tells. I pointed out the extreme lazy defense you employed in dismissing the case against you as just a wikitell.

Also, please clarify yourself. You yourself already said this town's full of townies with one pr added on at beginning of each day.

This is basically encouraging massclaims every morning.

preview: ninja'd by bunch of people

[FakeGod]

Just saying Rolefishing is a Scum tell, doesn't help. As afaict it isn't much of one.

I know that I'm probably the antithesis of a good townie. And I know that I tend to Rolefish (sometimes inadvertently), ALOT. Alignment independent. Null tell.

if you are the antithesis of a good townie then what is the point of keeping you around? wouldn't it be better to kill you now then have you causing trouble later?

Couldn't have said it better.

If you're scummy enough to distract other players from their scumhunting, wouldn't the best thing you could do for the town be removing yourself early on via lynch?

preview: ninja'd by narsis.

[FakeGod]

except if it's a one day role, it doesn't do scum any good to find it, does it?

How do you know if it's a one day role?

Is there something I missed?

[FakeGod]

Commander Vimes has acquired DRUNKENNESS and will receive a power today.

To me implies its a one day deal.

well, allow me to have more faith in permanence of our prs.

[FakeGod]

Lol, no one's listening to ButtonMen. Allow me to taunt you while you shamelessly call for my wagon. Ha. Ha. Ha.

My vote doesn't even count in VasudeVa's eyes.

[FakeGod]

Sorry guys, but I'm bit dizzy for some reason.

I'm gonna

V/LA

for today so that my head can clear up.

[FakeGod]

Close Examination of VasudeVa's d2 actions

Note: For ease of read, my thoughts are in

italics

.

ISO 31: VV asks that Vimes claim with his power. At the same time, he states what he suspect is the game mechanic: All VTs then random townies get power roles. He also asks people to speculate on what Drunkeness might do.

One of the greatest mistake VV made in this post is giving away information that mafia possibly didn't have. He informed (or at the very least confirmed) the mafia that town is full of townies with no powers, which is a huge benefit to mafia because 1) they are now aware that they won't have to hunt for prs, 2) practically knows what role VV is even if his guess on the mechanics were false and there are permanent prs, and 3) destroyed (at least considerably reduced) the credibility of any permanent prs (if they exist) that might claim later in the game. Additionally, Vimes is a character who is almost instantly cleared just by his name. (doubts still exist, but it's would be similar to a Frodo-claim in Lord of the Rings). Therefore, Vimes is a player who is valuable even without his powers, and should be protected by keeping him hidden. Asking for speculation on his power only helps mafia, since it gives them a clue to what the power might be, as well as enabling them to narrow down who Vimes might be. I felt that this post was damaging to the town, and I

ISO 32, 33, 34: VV explains his previous post by saying that information will help town get organized, and will help catch lying scum.

Extremely vague response and explanations. VV doesn't explain how the additional information will help town get organized, or how it will catch scum. He posts:

Scum already have all the information they need, as an informed minority, to win the game. Town doesn't. ANY information Town gets helps Town better in the long run.

Scum clearly do not have all the info they need. They do not know who Vimes is or what his power does. Knowing those things will help them win the game. I fail to see how town will benefit from Vimes claiming (and getting killed off early) in the long run. Clearly VV need to explain his reasoning better.

ISO 35, 36: VV writes off Button's accusations as wiki-tells, which he claims are outdated and extremely lazy. He also says that "Knowing who's what organizes Town. An organized Town is a Town to fear."

Other than the obviously lazy defense VV employs, he doesn't even tries to reason anything out. He basically claimed that because "Button is attacking me that happens to be in the wiki, I am entitled to ignore his case.", which doesn't do much defending him, while exposes his own laziness. Also, he still doesn't explain how knowing who Vimes is will help the town.

ISO 38, 39: VV supports his previous claim that "knowing who's what organized.......to fear" by saying that scum are already organized. He also is waiting for Vimes to claim. Then mocks Button by voting him via "wiki-tell".

What VV exactly means by "organized", I'm not sure any more. He never explained how exactly this would help town. Is being "organized" some state of invincibility? He further exposes his own laziness to scumhunt by giving the excuse of "waiting for Vimes to claim", and when Button, who obviously has seen enough of VV, asks the town to vote VV, VV posts this in response.

Lol, no one's listening to ButtonMen. Allow me to taunt you while you shamelessly call for my wagon. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Also, here's a wiki-tell.

Vote: ButtonMen

What's here is VV taunting and laughing at Button. What's missing is any sort of meaningful defense against Button's case. Furthermore, VV blatantly ignores my vote on him and existence. And no, he doesn't show much respect for other players in this game.

ISO 41:

Vote: FakeGod

I am dissappoint that no one is listening to me on ButtonMen. I also like the fact that he has been posting elsewhere whilst ignoring my attack on him. Yum yum Scum. Still, FG is scum with him so w/e.

VV ignores mod's request to unvote before voting another player to avoid confusion (see rule 5 and 5-1), vote FG as soon as he posts that he will be V/LA for the day, for no reason other than because FG followed Button's vote and voted VV, and the fact that Button has no vote and will be hard to get other people to lynch him.

This is my thoughts on VV on d2.

[FakeGod]

@FakeGod - please explain the VV case to me as you see it.

Done.

Re. Fakegod, His push on VV felt wrong, too strong for his playstyle.
He was already my #2, guilty of the same things as Narsis (case strengthened with Mysterio's flip) and Narsis lost a few scum points.

um......I guess I'm sorry to come out too strong?

*flexes arms*

FakeGod, who would you most liked to be voting at the time of this post?

My vote's where I most liked to be voting at the time of your post.

Hopefully, there isn't anything else I missed.

[FakeGod]

Hey FG, if you're not scum help me wagon ButtonMen.

I already said their attacks are lame and lazy. I see no point in reposting my defense.

I wonder VV even reads my posts...

[FakeGod]

@VV, Give up on the Button wagon. His reasons for attacking you were not scummy.

People really need to look at the difference between anti-town and scummy. Your post Fakegod, showed how VV has harmed the town but not why he is scum-aligned.

I'm all for lynching anti-town players. They're helping scum win.

[FakeGod]

Would you want him in LyLo?

[FakeGod]

Again, I just don't see why you guys want VV around.

He's not reading anything that has over a sentence or two, writes baseless and unsupported arguments, and he's now labeling off players as town to get their appeal lol

He's like, actively helping scum.

[FakeGod]

sigh I want to believe he's scum, but my logic tells me that it's highly unlikely for a scum to do such damage to town by guesswork...

-waiting for other players to show up as well-

[FakeGod]

Have you read my 363?

[FakeGod]

You practically gave away the mechanics of this game, what role you have, and confirmed that you're not Vimes.

That's a lot of free narrowing down you did for mafia.

I call that damage.

[FakeGod]

Have you read my post 379, 381, 383?

It's very clear that you don't read any of my posts.

[FakeGod]

My conclusion at the end was: VV has done many anti-town things, but in order to do them he would have to be town.

[FakeGod]

But VV's anti-town to a point where I don't think I can justify to myself (at this moment anyways) that I'm helping town if I were to place my vote on anyone else.

[FakeGod]

gimmeaseclemmegoaskmydaycopfriend

[FakeGod]

o hey, your V/LA's over!

yay more people

[FakeGod]

But VV's anti-town to a point where I don't think I can justify to myself (at this moment anyways) that I'm helping town if I were to place my vote on anyone else.

YOU THINK HE'S TOWN AND ARE VOTING HIM BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE HIS PLAYSTYLE!?!
OH GAWDZ, HELP ME, I'VE BEEN THROWN INTO CAPSRAGE!

whoa dude I never said I don't like his playstyle.

I rest my case .

I rest mine too. I'm gonna take a break from this intense mafia warz.

Encouraging the town to lynch VIs is very scummy play.

We all have our opinions.

I dunno. Knee jerk reaction is this is too awkwardly obvious. Scum is going to go out of his way to defend this stance? Seem he's defending the stance because he's Newb and doesn't understand why it's scummy. That makes the heart of the "case" a newb tell, which is null, and not a scum tell. Thoughts?

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you.

[FakeGod]

Unfortunately, I have never been scum in MafiaScum.net

Ever.

[FakeGod]

And may I ask where did I commit inconsistencies?

[FakeGod]

To Chrono and Budja while I'm at it: you guys care to explain how my push on VV is at odds with the rest of my playstyle?

Just wondering if it's a fact not fact thing or playstyle thing

[FakeGod]

Note to self: don't lynch VIs in minis

Unvote

[FakeGod]

@VV: le sigh, I saw the breadcrumb. My day 2 posts were basically a huge smokescreen to cover you.

I even specifically said that there's no way you could be Vimes I think.

O well.

[FakeGod]

@VV: Simple, it wouldn't look as believable if I didn't vote ya, especially with huge cases and crazy tunnel thing I was doing.

Though I admit, building that smokescreen cost me every ounce of town cred I had, and then some.

[FakeGod]

eh VV, it's cool if you don't believe me. But I was just being honest.

O well, Cheers.

[FakeGod]

What's up, doc?

I mean

Vote: Tasky

[FakeGod]

wait, there's a vote button?!?!?!

WUT

VOTE: Tasky

[FakeGod]

so are you scum Tasky?

[FakeGod]

lol.

VV I HAVE FAITH IN YOU

[FakeGod]

Good to see that no one has died overnight.

I'm still on VV's scum list.

[FakeGod]

More Buttonmen votes plx. In fact, speed lynch him now because I'm not even the slightest bit interested in what he has to say for himself. Same goes for FakeGod.

lol.

I'm Dorfl.

[FakeGod]

@FakeGod - I'd love to lynch you, why shouldn't I? Your actions around VV yesterday were mega-odd. Also, you haven't told us about strength yet - you only have it for the Day Phase. Yes or no question; is there a reason you're not claiming its effects?

Just waiting to see if there's any cc's, that's all.

[FakeGod]

Am I correct in saying that everyone except Budja has posted after my claim, and there were no cc's?

When it's confirmed that I'm un cc'd, I'll out my power, STRENGTH.

[FakeGod]

@FakeGod - I'd love to lynch you, why shouldn't I? Your actions around VV yesterday were mega-odd. Also, you haven't told us about strength yet - you only have it for the Day Phase. Yes or no question; is there a reason you're not claiming its effects?

Just waiting to see if there's any cc's, that's all.

why wait to see if there are any cc's though? if you are in fact Dorfl then there wont be a cc cause there wont be anyone else with that name(or rather their shouldn't).

In case scum decides to be dumb and cc and give us freebies. (I don't pass up on freebies )

Anyways, I'm uncc'd Dorfl. STRENGTH allows me to stop one player from voting today.

I know, right? I was hoping for a 1-shot daykill, and bust up some scum with my giant fists of clay. O well.

[FakeGod]

/mass-prodded

Does this mean we most likely have 3 clears in town now? (VV, me, and Chrono)

[FakeGod]

Do you actually think he's lying about what his day phase power does? I don't believe he is.

eh, why would I make up a power that's easily tested for existence?

[FakeGod]

Newsflash: the Mod isn't confirming town every day

How do you know/confirm this? Do you have additional information in your role PM or something? If not, why try to discredit my claim, hmmm?

[FakeGod]

Actually, maybe we can check that.

FakeGod uses his power on someone, he says who he uses it on. We mass vote for FakeGod and then the voteless person will hammer. If he is not lynched, he is telling the truth.

No need. When I use STRENGTH on someone, that person's vote (if it's on someone) will be moved to "not voting" in the next vote count and stay there.

Should be easy to tell.

[FakeGod]

Because an unkillable role who confirms town every day would tend to be just a

teensy

little bit unfair to the scum team, now wouldn't it?

Since I don't know the setup, I don't know whether that's fair or not to the scum team. You don't know either, unless you are scum and knew the setup better than I do.

In regards to your question, there were many reasons that I did this. First and foremost, I wanted to give him some cover. Breadcrumbing is dangerous and risky for obvious reasons, especially a breadcrumbing of a character who's very likely to be town. (in this case Vimes) In my experience, town players who have lots of town-cred are often killed off by scum, so I decided to write up a case on VV to lower his town-cred a bit (dangerous move, but town-cred's something he's guaranteed due to his inevitable Vimes claim), and draw off attention from scum. The long semi-ISO case I wrote up looks legit, hopefully enough for any scum who happened to glance over it, but you can tell that my heart's not in it, which is more evident when it's revealed that I believe VV is town. I'm also aware that just because VV breadcrumbed Vimes doesn't meant that he actually was Vimes. I wanted to see how he reacted and see whether they seem like they are coming from fakebreadcrumbing-scumVimes or realbreadcrumbing-townVimes. I was also hoping that by the huge and empty post VV would see that I saw his breadcrumb, but that obviously backfired, seeing that he thinks I'm scum.

Buttonmen also mentioned why town might smokescreen for someone I think.

[FakeGod]

Since I don't know the setup, I don't know whether that's fair or not to the scum team. You don't know either, unless you are scum and knew the setup better than I do.

Okay, since you've thought about this - what sort of scum team do you think could deal with an unblockable, unkillable town confirmation every day phase that also gives town powers while also potentially having a JK as well as any other roles that may or may not be out there while also having at least one vanilla goon on their team?

I haven't thought about it, but brainstorming: what if mafia could double-kill on one of the nights? or have 2 roleblockers? or maybe it's a 4 vs. 8 player setup? or some combination of mafia doc/tracker/rolecop/JOAT? or maybe mafia can recruit more members?

[FakeGod]

*shrug* Thor asked me to come up with possible setups.

[FakeGod]

Um, speedlynch is cool and everything, but I thought you guys wanted me to use/test my power or something?

I mean, I can only use it today...

[FakeGod]

V/LA for couple days

[FakeGod]

V/LA took longer than expected.

Still crazy busy, but quick read reveals that Thor's been doing nothing but tunneling on me, pulling threads about a conspiracy theory and trying to get VV support at all costs.

I hate to get lynched after a mod-confirm-un'ccd claim, especially when last two times (Mysterio and VV) mod gave powers to Vanilla Town. (Mysterio flipped Vanilla, and as far as I can tell, our JK saved VV from an attempted Night Kill, so VV is town, plus, my own situation, a Power-Received Vanilla Town, adds to the credibility if you look at it from my point of view)

In fact, one thing mafia would want to do is to discredit/lynch a mod-confirmed VT, and the exact argument they would make would be to argue WIFOM on how broken the game setup would be if mod were to confirm a townie every day.

Button is also guilty of this with his relationship with VV, and given the time-constraint, he's going to be our lynch today.

Vote: TheButtonmen

P.S. I'm using STRENGTH on Thor. lol

[FakeGod]

P.S. I'm using STRENGTH on Thor. lol

why? by doing so you are removing one of the key ways that the town gains info.

Seriously, what am I losing out? Thor made his stance clear and he wasn't going to change it any time soon.

[FakeGod]

Don't use Strength. (I think making someone voteless is kind of a dud power for a townie anyway.)

Telling me not to use Strength after me telling you I used it doesn't really work, dude.

Plus, you do realize you're just repeating what Thor said about the setup. Anything you want to

add

?

[FakeGod]

P.S. I'm using STRENGTH on Thor. lol

why? by doing so you are removing one of the key ways that the town gains info.

Seriously, what am I losing out? Thor made his stance clear and he wasn't going to change it any time soon.

you may not necessarily be losing anything, but the town is losing out on information.

Please share with me what kind of info the town's losing out on.

[FakeGod]

@Narsis: He wanted me lynched; hence his vote was on me.

He showed no intention of switching it, and deadline's in 4 days.


@Chrono: It's great that you know the flavor much more that I do.

Flavor Question: I wiki'd a bit and learned that Dorfl, like other golems, speak by pronouncing all of his words with capitalization. Is this true?

Because I breadcrumbed in my 327 (onset of day 2) this:

Why State Obvious Things? Just In Case Mafia Didn't Understood???

Capitalization of all words. Something (I hope) what Dorfl does in the series.

Since you know the flavor well, I take it that you saw the breadcrumb? (did anyone else?)

or are my wiki skills failing....

[FakeGod]

Vote + power use show strong survival instinct.

.....and? That means I'm mafia?

[FakeGod]

Can't say I noticed your crumb.

Although it is a noticeable trait in the books.

Well, at least I didn't mess up the wiki search...

@Thor: I'm rather curious about something. You do not believe that mod isn't confirming a town everyday, because that would be favoring town way too much. Say town lynches me and I flip VT, as I said I was. Would you then believe that the mod is confirming a town every day? Answer yes or no, because I want to ask more questions based on your answer.

[FakeGod]

I agree with the above that the use of Strength after nearly the full town told him not to, as it would be inherently an anti-town move, makes FakeGod likely to be scum for either acting against the town's best interest or for not reading the thread carefully.
Therefore I
VOTE: FG

Compared to....

I am now inclined to believe his claim and that he is town.

I don't want to lynch FakeGod today.

Opportunistic much?

Notice that both jim and budja (his #677) used the same

excuse

to jump on the wagon: I used STRENGTH!

Terrible reasoning (you two, feel free to argue why it's a great reason to lynch someone in your next posts), but I guess with the deadline approaching and all, scum feel like jumping on any opportunity to lynch a mod-confirmed town.


Here, why don't I start by answering jim's ISO 55.

Using STRENGTH accomplishes two things: banishes any misgivings about me lying about my powers, and makes me harder to be lynched (since Thor wasn't going to switch his vote). Since I know I am town-sided (mod-confirmed to boot), it's in town's interest to not lynch me, and I do what I do make it hard as possible.

You guys fear that you're going to lose out on voting info, but that's really just a lame excuse at this point of the day. With the deadline looming close and Thor staying adamant about his vote on me, there was really no info that I'm robbing town, is there? Thor already declined to join the TBM wagon, and I didn't see him going after anyone else as much as he did against me. Unless Thor was going to switch his vote at the last second and hammer TBM or something (which I don't see him doing), I really don't see what possible info I could've robbed town.

Preview: ninja'd by Thor~

[FakeGod]

@Thor: Then you would definitely try to lynch tomorrow's mod-confirmed-player? (given I flip VT)

Since, I and Mysterio were VT, chances would be extremely high from your point-of-view that mod will confirm a scum tomorrow, isn't that correct?

In fact, even though evidence we have (Mysterio flipping VT) clears VV and me (if the mechanic holds), you're going to go against it and lynch mod-confirmed players?

You're clearly attempting to outguess the mod by guessing (against evidence I again emphasize) that mod will not confirm towns only. I'm completely against this, seeing that we're gambling the game away on your guess on how well the game is balanced. (it doesn't take many mislynches to lose, but ironically, according to your logic, more mod-confirmed VTs that flip, more likely the next mod-confirmed player will be scum. How many VTs do you need to see flip before you abandon your logic?)

Also, do realize that mafia will be forced to kill mod-confirmed VTs anyways. (you do realize what no kill last night probably signifies?) I really don't see why we should go with your intuition.

However, if you are scum who already knew that mod was confirming town only, the argument you just made is the exactly the one scum_Thor would've made. (you do realize that, don't you?) Because as you said, scum would be pretty desperate to get rid of the confirmed VTs, and will jump on the chance any way possible, including attempting to discredit the mod-confirmed players.

Again, I don't think attempting to outguess the mod on the setup is a good idea at all. The mod clearly balanced it (since it came through the setup reviews), and guessing at the balancing mechanism will lead us to doom.

Preview: I understand your misunderstanding. When I say "mod-confirmed", I mean that mod has acknowledged that I exist in the game, not "I'm auto-confirmed-town."

[FakeGod]

@Thor: Then you would definitely try to lynch tomorrow's mod-confirmed-player? (given I flip VT)

Depends, is tomorrow's "mod-confirmed" player as scummy as you were yesterday?

It shouldn't matter at all to you, since you believe out of four players (Mysterio, VV, me, and mod-confirmed player tomorrow), mod has confirmed a scum.

[FakeGod]

In fact, if you truly were town and believed you figured out the balancing mechanism, your vote should be on tomorrow's confirmed player faster than I can say "I'm Dorfl, a VT with STRENGTH"

[FakeGod]

Point 1: I never said you doubted my Dorfl claim or my power.

Point 2: I noticed you didn't believe my claim didn't automatically clear me. So we argued over it for past few posts. And your point? are you saying that I shouldn't believe what I'm talking about?

Point 3:

/not mass prodded due to pure awesomeness.

Pretty neutral on FG, not impressed by his commentary that the Dorfl claim somehow clears him. Newsflash: the Mod isn't confirming town every day

@FG - you were the best-est bud forever with VV yesterday and had understood his breadcrumbs...you also tried to lynch him because it wouldn't "look believable" if you didn't try to lynch him. What do you see as the pro-town angle in your actions here?

This is what you're referring to as your point 3.

I already answered it in my #590 and you apparently didn't read it. Please read my posts.

And since you believe you've figured out the mechanism you'd be on them saying "XXXXX is obvtown, let's lynch someone else" before they could say "My power is a triple daykill that scum are immune to"

Look at it from my point-of-view. I know I'm a VT. Game starts. I see a VT get mod-confirmed, and given a power. Then he flips VT. Next day, another VT gets mod-confirmed, and is given a power. Because Vimes is an important protagonist and he finds us a scum, I take VV by his words and believe he is not lying. Then I get mod-confirmed and is given a power.

Following this train of events, I don't think it takes much deduction powers to be convinced that all mod-confirmed players are VTs. Therefore, I believe in it.

You see all this as well (except maybe "I'm VT" and the "mod confirms you" part), yet you choose to believe that mod do not confirm only VTs. You think you figured out the balancing mechanism. But 1) there is much less evidence to believe that mod do not confirm only VTs, other than "it's the balancing mechanism!", and 2) if you were scum, this would be the exact argument you would make to get a mod-confirmed player lynched.

Also, you haven't answered this to my satisfaction.

It shouldn't matter at all to you, since you believe out of four players (Mysterio, VV, me, and mod-confirmed player tomorrow), mod has confirmed a scum.

This is very important, because you said you believe that mod isn't clearing only VT, but scum too. Yet, even when I flip VT tomorrow, you're unsure to lynch the new-mod-confirmed player? This contradicts what you're saying.

Repeated in a box for emphasis:

Thor's belief: Mod is confirming scum as well as town.

Thor says

he still believes in the above statement even if I flip VT.

But if I flip VT, that means that by his belief there must be a scum among

Mysterio, VV, me, and newly-mod-confirmed player.

Yet, he says whether he votes him or not will depend how scummy this new player is.

So he apparently doesn't want to lynch the obvscum from his POV? What?

Conclusion:

Thor obviously doesn't even believe in his own statements.

Thor, tell me where I'm wrong with this above logic next time you post. k?

[FakeGod]

@Thor: I don't find them mutually exclusive as you say. Because if you truly believed that mod isn't going to confirm town only, then by process of elimination, your next target would be the next-mod-confirmed player. I'm not saying because you're holding stance A, you can't do stance B. I'm saying if you're holding stance A, then this is the next logical step I can derive from your logic, yet seeing you indecisive and unwilling to commit to your own reasoning, and that definitely spells trouble.

And no, I don't have other games where I smokescreen for others. Looking at how it turned out for this game, it's not gonna happen again either.

Unvote

I admit that I was bit....premature in my voting. I was bit scared that there might be an accidental no lynch today, looking at how inactive people were posting few days ago. But since people are becoming much more active suddenly, I don't have any problem unvoting and using our time to the fullest.

VOTE COUNT

TheButtonmen (2): Narsis, Chronopie
FakeGod (2): Budja, jimfinn
Budja (1): Plum
jimfinn (1): VasudeVa

Not Voting (3): TheButtonmen, Thor665, FakeGod

With 9 alive, 5 is needed to lynch.
Deadline is Friday 17th.

[FakeGod]

I hate repeating just as much as you do, but I'll lay it out again.

I'm not saying the player who gets a day power *has* to be scum, I'm saying he *could* be scum. There is nothing in my logic that would obligate me to vote for a player simply because he gets the day power. What are you even talking about here?

You said you still believe that mod confirms not only town but scum as well, even if I were to flip VT.

This means you believe that among the mod-confirmed players (Mysterio, VV, me, New-mod-confirmed-player), there is a scum.

Mysterio and I were VT, and VV claimed Vimes and caught us a scum.

By process of elimination, the last player in question (the new-mod-confirmed-player)

has

to be scum, according to your beliefs.


Is there anything wrong with my deduction?

[FakeGod]

@Thor: Backing out? You understand that I made a serious accusation to you (that you are lying/not convinced of your own stance). You can't just say our opinions differ, when you never pointed out where in my accusation was wrong.

My Logic:

Fact 1: Thor says he believes that mod is confirming scum as well as town.

Fact 2: Thor says he will still believe that mod is confirming scum as well as town even if I were to flip VT.

Therefore, Thor believes that there is at least one scum among the 4 people (Mysterio, VV, me, New-Mod-Confirmed Player).

But Mysterio and I am VT, and VV has claimed Vimes and has caught us a scum.

Therefore, New-Mod-Confirmed Player is scum.

All I'm asking you to do is point out where in my logic that I'm wrong and tell me why.

I really don't think I'm asking for much here, and we don't have time for your evade and avoid maneuvers.


@jim: one of the things I learned this game is that anti-town DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN scum. (examine my faulty case on VV that ended up cracked open in half), plus you're using what essentially are lame excuses to label someone "town" and "scum". (o I believe his claim, he's legit town. o wait nevermind, he going around using voteblock). Can you say

Active Lurking

?


@Budja: I already said to Thor (who can confirm me) that when I say "mod-confirm" I mean that mod has announced that I exist. (with a 1 day power). I never said that "mod-confirmed" = automatic-town-status. And I don't even know what you mean when you say that mod might not be the one who's doing it. Who else would it be? I mean, mod's the one who created the whole setup, so of course he's going to be the one behind the power-handout-to-VT mechanism.

unvote, vote FG

Vote + power use show strong survival instinct.

I could see a townie trying to persuade Thor, but removing his vote? That bugs me.

Your reasons behind your vote are terrible. You are essentially are doing the same thing jim is doing, sheeping and active lurking.


Preview: Another sheeping lurker jumps in with a FG vote! (and guys, if this isn't the epitome of sheeping lurker play, I don't know what is)

Chronopie claims that I am "overextending my logic", but the whole point of my chain of deduction was to show the Thor really doesn't believe in what he's saying. I have already asked Thor to answer to my questions as if I have been lynched and flipped VT. Feel free to point out what you think is wrong in my logic above, Chronopie.

[FakeGod]

@Plum: Are you aware that even in your hypothetical setup I would be right. If Thor

truly believes

that mod is picking scum as well as town, and if we assume your hypothetical dice setup, then Thor would vote the last Mod-Confirmed-Player. It's simple probabilities. Assuming there are 3 scum out of 12 people, what's the chance that mod picks 4 people, and there are

no scum

in the picked people?

It comes out to be 14/55 or around 25.45%. (9 choose 4 over 12 choose 4) Therefore, chance that there will be at least 1 scum among the 4 picked is around 75.45%. (and by process of elimination which I pointed out above, it will be the last Mod-Confirmed-Player)

If I really believed in a theory that says that chance of this one player being scum is around 75.45%, you bet my vote would be on that person right away, and I mean

right away

.


In fact, to all of you voting me, your vote on me means that you believe in Thor's theory, that mod isn't confirming town only. Confirm this in your next post.


@Budja: I noticed you keep mentioning that I'm trying to survive. I don't understand how that could be a tell. Scum would try to survive, and so would town.

[FakeGod]

For those who don't know, here's an crude example of the Gambler's Fallacy:

Because more heads came out in my coin flips, when I flip more coins there will be more tails to "balance" this out. Which isn't true.

@jimfinn: What I calculated isn't the probability of the mod confirming a scum tomorrow. I calculated the overall chance of mod confirming at random and ending up at a situation where 4 randomly chosen players are town. (as I said, chance of this happening is low, which is why my vote would go on the chosen player)

But even if we're talking about chances of mod confirming a scum tomorrow (given that things already worked out to approximately where it would be), you conveniently forgot some important facts. (like VV can't be chosen again, Chronopie isn't a VT and cannot be chosen, and possibility of other PRs, be it town or scum, existing and cannot be chosen)

Plus, looking at who were mod-confirmed and what they claimed (Mysterio flipped VT, VV claimed VT, I claimed VT), no one can deny that the most-likely mechanism of this game setup is that 1 VT is mod-confirmed and granted powers every day.

[FakeGod]

Vote: Jimfinn

Is it just me, or Budja's been doing an awesome job flying under the radar?

I don't think anyone even placed a vote on him even once in this game....

[FakeGod]

I'm terribly sorry for not being here when the day 4 started.

The hotel's wifi was failing/nonexistent. I did not have internet for last two days and wasn't able to post V/LA either.

I will be rereading what I have missed right now.

[FakeGod]

It's too late for me to say "I am aligned with the city watch and win when all mafia are dead."

It appears that prs can also receive powers.

Because there was a JK and a doc, I'm almost positive that scum attempted to kill VV in n2 and hence the no deaths, and that VV is town-aligned.

If Budja is town-sided, then plum is town as well.

From my point of view, I am town, and therefore scum are among Chrono, Thor, and TBM.

If Budja is lying scum, then possible scum would be from my point of view are:

Budja + Plum (easy to lie about the lie-detector and possibly clear his partner)

Budja + Thor (easy to lie about neighbors with your scum buddy)

Budja + Chrono or TBM

[FakeGod]

@VV: with Narsis flipping doc, I could believe that Chronopie might be a mafia roleblocker or something.

but I completely understand why Thor/TBM could be the scum team, basing off the logic that what mafia could gain by discrediting the confirmed VTs, compared to supporting the confirmed VTs.

In fact, if one of the mafia members were among the confirmed players, then there is no reason for a huge discredit campaign against the confirmed players, since it would tarnish the "immunity" one of their members would enjoy.

[FakeGod]

Chrono + Thor are scum if Budja's telling the truth.

Budja + either Thor or Chrono if Budja's lying.

I'd put my vote either on Budja or Chrono at the moment tho.

[FakeGod]

@Thor: it really depends. Since I know myself is town and TBM didn't hammer me when he could've (no one would've objected much either lol), I'm inclined to think that he isn't scum.

[FakeGod]

In case I'm wrong and scum really do get day powers.

[FakeGod]

/prodded but don't know what to say

[FakeGod]

Budja's not obv scum, but even if he flips town, we will learn something solid about another player's alignment. (Plum in this case)

VOTE COUNT

FakeGod (2): Thor665, Budja
TheButtonmen (1): VasudeVa

Not Voting (4): Chronopie, Plum, TheButtonmen, FakeGod

With 7 alive, 4 is needed to lynch.

[FakeGod]

Chrono is a good as lynch as Budja in terms of nailing a scum I believe. (tho one could argue that we're risking a claimed PR compared to a 1 shot PR)

but I would like for others to reply to Plum first

[FakeGod]

If no one's posting much, then I'm going to hammer in few hours. (is Chrono on V/LA?)

I believe "Semi V/LA" was the term he used. But, yeah. -M

[FakeGod]

Sure.

[FakeGod]

I don't see why that would terrify you, it undermine multiple reads?

No, just the idea that someone legitimately thought of it as a good idea to do while being town.

*shrug*

Hey man, we all do stupid things one time or another.

[FakeGod]

o Chrono's been lynched while I was gone

[FakeGod]

Is there a mod-confirm?

[FakeGod]

You guys are lovers??

Didn't see that coming, at all.

Since three of the 5 remaining players are confirms each other, (Plum, Budja, Thor), this makes it easy.

Vote:TheButtonmen

[FakeGod]

@FG - we're confirmed lovers. We actually don't know the other player's alignment.

wut

[FakeGod]

well, if there are 2 scum left, the most obvious pair is Thor + Budja...

But to be honest, I kinda doubt that we have 4-men scum team.

I haven't seen a 4 man scum team in a mini game before.

[FakeGod]

Not much thoughts, guys?

[FakeGod]

^ It would help if you and Button were less apathetic.

apathetic?

[FakeGod]

@FG - if the shoe fits.

What are your thoughts on my reason for unvoting TBM as presented at the top of the page (with pretty colors)?

hey, everyone's entitled to their opinions. You are saying it may not be likely that all three scum were not on the lynch wagon d1, and I can see why scum team might want to split up instead of all bwing the same guy. That's great, but obviously it doesn't happen all the time.

@FG, I want you and Button to fight, not just wait for the rest of us to decide.

*attacks Button with giant fists of clay*

[FakeGod]

If we do a no-lynch, then....

if lovers are town, one will die tonight, and other will die tomorrow, putting us at LYLO with Plum cleared.

if one of the lovers are scum, one of the other players will be shot. Then it's an instant win since we either a) lynch the mafia, or b) lynch his lover and he dies next night. (there will be 2 town left and he can only shoot one)

It's surprisingly effective I think. Any thoughts?

[FakeGod]

o wait, I retract what I said about instant win, because there's a chance that mafia will shoot someone other than lovers even if both lovers are town.

[FakeGod]

So.

So?

[FakeGod]

If possible, I rather have town get 2 lynches in before game ends, rather than only 1.

[FakeGod]

wait, when does a lover die when his/her partner is killed?

[FakeGod]

I guess Thor will be hammering soon then.

[FakeGod]

YEAH WE WON

I don't think I'll be trying "build fake cases on people who are town to draw attention" strategy anytime soon, as it was worthless and only caused confusion in this game.

After I straightened up and played straight, I think I came across as town to most players toward the end, which was good.

btw, I had town read on TBM throughout the entire game. I admit he had me fooled.

[FakeGod]

mod, are you going to post the Mafia QT and/or Dead QT?

[FakeGod]

cheers to Thor (along with others) who somehow figured out I'm town

[FakeGod]

Is there a dead thread?