Mini #1022- PokeUPick(Game Over)

[Switz]

/confirm

[Switz]

Um, I'm also Eevee. Awkward.

More experienced players: is it common/possible that mods would allow two people to have the same role name in a uPick game? Because if not I'm calling scum on bv.

And I also don't like that Xite is the only one who's fullclaimed and they've fullclaimed Vig. It seems like that'd be a smart move for scum because now we'll tread lightly and not want to lynch you.

[Switz]

Yeah, there's massive misrep across the board in jim's post. Obviously mine sticks out to me; why is questioning the fact that two people have the same character scummy? If I was modding this game, I wouldn't necessarily want two of the same character, but since I don't know how uPick games usually go, for all I know it's common for that to happen.

And Nichol, I'm a little confused looking at your rationale for claiming across the game. You start opposed, then withhold your claim after everyone starts claiming, then claim and say there was no reason for you not to claim. Now, however, you're saying that the first people to call for a name claim are scum, and you don't want anyone else to claim. Why the sudden change of heart, and how is the remainder of us not claiming going to make a difference either way?

[Switz]

Wow, total fail on my part. I was actually talking to MBF. I agree with jim that one of the Eevees might be scum, I just know it's not me.

[Switz]

Okay, so I reread this game because I felt like I didn't have any decent reads on anyone, and here's the brunt of what I found.

Prox: In his summary post, MBF calls you a Miller, which fits the hints you've been dropping. Is this true, and if so, why have you been softclaiming for 7 pages straight?

MBF: You seem to have some contradictory opinions on nameclaiming. You initially say claiming might help because roles were determined after names were sent in, but have since chosen not to give out your own role name and have stated that you think claiming could be a problem because it could out power roles (a la Officer Jenny). Which is it? If it's the former, what is your role, and if it's the latter, why did you change your mind?

Also, I apologize for embarrassingly sheeping on the subject of your alleged "misrep." Reading it again, I didn't see the inaccurate statements I had earlier, and I'm sure I just skimmed the thread and gathered an osmosis opinion from the screaming of Xite, Gandalf, and Prox.

Jarti: Why is my one post the scummiest thing you could find out of this entire game so far? And if you don't like it, give us a better reason than that it "rubs [you] the wrong way."

Gandalf v. Espeonage: These seem to be our competing bandwagons at the moment and they each have their pros and cons. Espy's refusal to give his case on Gandalf is scummy, unless he actually has a case, in which his explanation makes perfect sense. Since I'm seeing some scumminess in Gandalf's play too--scumminess I'm not going to point out for the exclusive purpose of not giving Espy anything if he's bluffing--I'm going to give Espeonage the benefit of the doubt for now and

Vote: Gandalf.

That said, if Espeonage's next post doesn't consist of at least 1 reason he's voting Gandalf that makes sense, I'll vote him instead.

[Switz]

I hardly think asking you if you're a Miller after you've been softclaiming "a role that might mislead scans" with the added hint that "most abilities won't affect me as they should" is roleclaiming, especially when another player went and straight-up assumed you were one and you didn't say boo.

[Switz]

EBWOP: Make that "rolefishing." Although it's hardly roleclaiming either.

[Switz]

Okay, Nicol's reasoning makes sense. So here's my case.

The short version: Gandalf's overzealous play makes him likely to be scum because it involves him both keeping town distracted and pushing cases with little merit so fast we don't notice the lack of evidence.

Long version: Throughout this game, Gandalf's been playing very aggressively. He's one of the more frequent posters, but despite this, there's very little content in his posts. In fact, I think it's safe to say there's no scumhunting in any of his play so far.

But here's what he has done.

Forced Quick Nameclaiming

I think we've all determined by this point that a mass nameclaim is pretty much the way to go. But that wasn't the case on Page 2, where our first claim is made. And why was that claim made?

Not much point in breadcrumbing if we're about to nameclaim. I support the idea of nameclaiming, although I don't think that it would be that hard for mafia to fake-claim. While it might not help too much, it certainly couldn't hurt.

I say we go for it, I have no problem being the first, and again I ask, do people want me to full claim, considering it will help town?

If you think it will help, go ahead. If you're really important, I'm sure we have a doc.

Alright

Well, I am the Water Type
Each night I get to choose one player to do water-type damage to (Vig)
Which is why I wanted to claim, I want it to be town directed, and I don't think the doc should worry about me, the kill still goes through if I'm NK'd, and I'm sure there's better PR's to protect.

In the span of 15 minutes, Gandalf convinces Xite to claim by encouraging him to commit to his promise to be the first and his promise that there is a Doc waiting to protect him. Aside from the fact that this reasoning is opposite (which someone else pointed out, I don't remember who), this is just anti-town. The pro-town move to make would be to make sure Xite doesn't claim until more than, say, half the people in the game have had a chance to weigh in. Xite's claim broke down the floodgates, encouraging everyone else to join the massclaim.

Now, if Gandalf is scum, as I believe him to be, this course of action serves multiple purposes. It forces the town to focus on claims and keeps them from doing any initial scumhunting based on gameplay; instead we're theorizing based on claims. It also, in this particular case, convinced someone who appears to be a power role to claim. Regardless of Xite's alignment, this is bad for us; if he's really the Vig, he's now exposed and likely to get picked off, if he's scum pretending to be Vig, he's been outed in an attempt to gain our trust. And it accelerates the game's speed before everyone can weigh in. Scum have everything to gain from us moving faster than we should and not thinking about our actions.

And lest you think this is an isolated incident, look here:

I did not exactly "list bandwagon". The post by gandalf perfectly addressed my concerns, while still giving the town a way to input some opinions.

And I want to see more input from others before I claim. That's why I posted that "where is everyone else?" post. Your reasoning is bad, but I don't see any scummy things about it.

...
Preview Edit 2: NB claim now. As town, you should have no reason to wait to claim. Waiting just opens a whole bucket of WIFOM.

Again, he sees someone hesitating to claim and pushes them over the edge. The only difference is this time he uses the stick instead of the carrot; whereas before claiming would warrant the protection of a Doc, now not claiming has the stigma of being labeled non-town. And his actions afterwards are even more interesting. Which leads me to my next point...

Parrotting Others' Ideas

Through the game, Gandalf hasn't been actually coming up with any unique theories or arguments against anyone, at least not any with evidence. What he'd rather do instead is parrot back the beliefs of others to gain support. Like in this lovely exchange right after Nicol does claim.

So why did you wait to claim?

Wow, scum caught already? Sneasel isn't from Gold and Silver, is he? And yeah, why the hell did you wait to claim?

Ignoring the fact that this statement is made shortly after Gandalf was encouraging Nicol to claim without any such questions about why he was waiting so long to do so, this is a clear instance where Gandalf takes up the idea of another and runs with it so we don't see that he doesn't have any ideas of his own. Here's another example, early in his crusade against Espy.

Wait, is Espeo joking? Because he hasn't posted any reasoning behind his vote at all.

Cases should be posted.

This. Voting without posting your reasoning is 100% sure to be unhelpful to town.

Why is it that the first time he points out that Espy hasn't posted a case, it's a confusing potential joke, and the second time, it's antitown? Answer: Because the second time it's Prox that says it, (possibly) inadvertently laying the groundwork for Gandalf to rail against Espeonage. Which brings me to my last point...

Over-Relentless Idea-Pushing

Now, Gandalf hasn't been quite as guilty of these former offenses lately, because he's been busy trying to make everyone else (especially Espeonage, MBF, and Vezo) look scummy instead, and this is how: by pushing their apparent scumminess down our throats until we believe it. I'm not going to post quotes here because most of the posts I would quote are so short they'd waste space, but their message is always the same. If it's about Espy, he's saying that he lacks a case and is scummy. If it's about MBF, he starts talking about how his summary "misreps" everyone. If it's about Vezo, Vezo's making up the scumGandalf meta he's using. You get the drift.

The point is, if he pushes these ideas long enough, we're going to start believing them. But there's no hard evidence to back any of these assertions up. Espeonage could be making up the case, but we have no way of knowing. MBF could be misrepping, but no one has come forward with examples. Etc. But Gandalf doesn't need any evidence anyways as long as he can convince us to go after people like Espy without thinking about it.

Which brings me back to the short version of the argument at the top of the post.

[Switz]

Sorry, I'm reading now. I'll have something up tonight after I get done.

[Switz]

Okay, obviously a fair amount has happened since the last time I was here, so I'm organizing my thoughts based on what I see chronologically, and doubling back to a player when necessary.

Bv proposing Prox as possible scum on page 10 makes sense for the reasons he gives, and Prox's response makes that possibility very real for me. I mean, basically all he does is call the argument WIFOM, try to use big words, and then OMGUS vote bv back. Not the most convincing rebuttal.

Vezo abdicating his case does not sit well with me, but there are scummier things afoot.

My only comment on Shotty's voting on 11 is that I wish he won't post when he is suffering from physical illness. Because now I can't take any of his posts on page 11 seriously, be they the ones where he's mistakenly (?) voting bv, or where he votes Prox, or where he pinwheels and goes after Jim for attacking his BFF Xite (who, incidentally, is seeming to do more scumhunting than Jim implies).

Page 12 is a different story. There he starts flip-flopping from vote to vote, and since I believe he's not as drugged up as previously, we have to take him pretty much at face value. He's playing a bit boldly for scum, but Shotty's so erratic I might believe it. The only thing that confuses me is what his rationale for claiming is--it's almost as foolhardy as Xite's claim earlier in the day, especially for a role that doesn't clearly make him town.

In addition, leaving him alive so he can test his power is probably a bad idea. Shotty's just going to end up dead, and while that might be protown in and of itself regardless of his alignment, it loses us the alleged Vig kill and any investigations we might have. If we let Shotty live tonight, I'd almost prefer he not use his ability, since it's so potentially dangerous to town.

Nicol's accusations of Jarti have merit--I thought his weak case on me was something noteworthy, but I figured I could wait and see how it develops over time. Nicol puts it perfectly here though: he picks me as his target on incredibly weak surface reading, then hypocritically calls everyone out for lurking, and refuses to provide commentary on the remainder of the game. I wish there was more I could add to it but Jarti hasn't posted enough at this point.

Espy's reasoning is a little weak but it makes sense. If I didn't have my own reasons for voting Gandalf at this point, I wouldn't probably buy it, but even his bad reasons are supported by my good reasons in my eyes. Gandalf flipping scum may not clear Espeonage for me though.

MBF's "heavy FOS" on Vezo is just wrong. First of all, what Vezo said he did to his post is not that improbable; I believe it can be done on accident very easily when you're writing in Microsoft Word, and it could have easily been a Freudian slip of sorts. You making it look like the scummiest thing that's happened all game does not sit well with me. I also think it's interesting that you say you're interested in pursuing other cases besides Gandalf, yet you leave your vote on Gandalf anyways. It doesn't seem to correlate.

And, as I say above, I disagree with your logic on leaving Shotty alive. He is a one-shot lightning rod, as he clearly states, so we'd only get one night of "neutering," not to mention the fact that he could be a scum lightning rod, at which point he would activate overnight, get "confirmed," and then proceed to linger on until scum destroys us.

Gandalf, you don't act any less scummy until Shotty claims, at which point you start saying things that sound considerably more town, like your questioning of his claim and your suggestion that he not use his ability because it's so antitown. However, if Shotty flips scum I suppose I could see it as distancing, but I'm really not sure.

I'd also like to know why you claimed (your reasons that you give to Xite aren't really sufficient, since there's only been a handful of posts in between where it almost makes sense and where you actually claim) and what rationale you have for believing this game is no-vanilla.

So, recap:
Prox is plausible scum, but we can deal with him later.
Vezo's not the scummiest thing in Town.
Shotty is a batshit-crazy lightning rod we should probably lynch.
Nicol's doing pretty good so far.
Jarti should consider actually finding a case that has some merits.
Espeonage is flaky but not a huge problem, especially since he's on my side.
MBF has had some massively wrong ideas, but I don't think it's enough to label him as scum.
Gandalf is still probably scum and allegedly a roleblocker who needs to explain why this game doesn't have vanillas.
And I don't know about the rest of you.

Despite my thoughts on Gandalf, I'm going to

Unvote; Vote: Shotty

.
My reasoning: If Shotty is really a protown lightning rod, his absence overNight simply retains the status quo, albeit with one less townie. Gandalf, on the other hand, has claimed a role that could be beneficial overNight if he's telling the truth. If they're both scum and both lying, it doesn't matter which one we lynch first, and if only one of them is scum, then if we miss we can try again tomorrow.

That's L-1, people.

[Switz]

I would only use it if our cop was dead or in some situation like that

You said earlier you would use it toNight to prove yourself, did you not?

And if Shotty is scum, I agree it's very likely Gandalf and he are scumbuddies. But if he's town I don't think that would clear Gandalf by any stretch of the imagination.

[Switz]

I explained my reasoning in my last post, I'm not going to do so again. But, basically, voting you has protown benefits regardless of whether or not you're scum. Voting Gandalf does not.

[Switz]

Gandalf, you damn me with faint praise; aka stop helping me, scum.

Massclaim is bad, Shotty or Gandalf lynch is good. And I'm sorry, but Xite is playing way too erratically for me to implicitly trust that he's actually a Vig and not scum or an SK.

And trying to reason out the pros and cons of letting Shotty live for days and days is exactly what scumShotty would want us to do. If Xite is a pro-town Vig, he's got lots of options and we're not directing him anyways, so why not go for the most protown move we have?

[Switz]

EBWOP: Oh, I didn't notice that was actually Gandalf's response. I thought he was just trying to use me as an example of "players who participate" for MBF.

Either way, that's a pretty weak defense. I mean, just for starters, the only way Gandalf could know MBF and Vezo are town is if he's scum, and if he isn't and he believes 100% that they are, he's a liability. But that really doesn't matter because your actions towards them don't seem like the actions of someone who believes the person they're addressing is 100% town.

[Switz]

I'm saying lynching Shotty has more protown potential than lynching Gandalf. Higher chance that lynching him will have less horrible consequences.

And I'm not saying your assurance of their townliness is a scumtell, Gandalf, I'm just saying that a) it's dumb at this point in the game to believe you have a 100% read on someone and b) your beliefs don't seem in accordance with your actions, at least in my opinion.

[Switz]

A few things:

1) In looking back over the game, MBF and Jarti have thus far declined to nameclaim, although Jarti just softclaimed having a nonstandard role so the chances of getting them to do so is slim to none. However, I shall anyways.

MBF and Jarti: Are you willing to nameclaim (and not flavor- or full-claim) now, as the remainder of the game has? If not, why?

2) These are the claimed night actions we have so far.

Xite: Vigged Espeonage
Gandalf: Roleblocked Espeonage
Espeonage: Gave a Magikarp to ??? (I feel we should be asking for a claim on this)
Mystery Person: Killed Vezo

I've added in the "Mystery Person" for one reason: unless Xite is completely lying about his flavor (in which case he is scum), Xite cannot have killed Vezo, because a Vig kill would have looked all watery and suchlike.

So, using Occam's Razor and all that philosophical baggage that goes with it, the most likely scenarios for what happened tonight are the following:

--Xite is lying. He is scum and either he or a scumbuddy killed Vezo. Gandalf roleblocked Espeonage, and no one received a Magikarp tonight. There is no other Vigilante or SK.

--Gandalf is lying. He is scum and either he or a scumbuddy killed Vezo. Xite Vigged Espeonage, but Espeonage somehow managed to survive. This is either because Gandalf is really a scum roleblocker who blocked Xite or because a Doc (who should not claim unless absolutely necessary) saved Espeonage.

There are obviously other options here, so these are by no means the only ones that we should consider. But what these indicate is that our lynch for today should almost certainly be either Xite or Gandalf, and I'm leaning towards the latter.

Vote: Gandalf

3) Various questions:

Gandalf: What is the flavor for your roleblock?
Espeonage: Do you know if someone received a Magikarp from you successfully, and/or who did you target?
Prox: So are you in or out? If it's in, let's have some content; make yourself useful.
Jarti: Am I still as "obvscum" as you seem to imply D1? Why or why not?

[Switz]

1) In looking back over the game, MBF and Jarti have thus far declined to nameclaim,

Jarti has already nameclaimed. As for me, I was just wondering how long it would take for somebody to point it out.

I actually think I noticed yesterday, I just either forgot or decided it was a D2 kind of question. And you're right, I skimmed right past it when I ISOed Jarti last night.

"mikeburnfire"]

Are you willing to nameclaim (and not flavor- or full-claim) now, as the remainder of the game has? If not, why?

Probably. I don't think my role can be determined from my character. What is your opinion on flavor claims? Do you think that they can help find scum?

I guess flavorclaims depend on the situation. Here I don't think they're going to help, because Sabrina, for example, ended up a Cop even though that's really got nothing to do with her character in either the game or the anime. So I think it's possible for scum to tweak their flavor to look town or lie completely. Ask me again in a few Days.

And are you going to nameclaim then?

I believe that Espeonage DID send a Magicarp to Gandalf, or at least tried to. He nudged gandalf and practically asked him to confirm his role:

Sadly that didn't work out seeing as we lost a cop. Now I would like to hear from gandalf.

So I believe his role, but not necessarily his alignment. Gandalf quickly shot back:

I roleblocked Espeonage. I suspect that I may have blocked the mafia kill, and that Xite shot vezok.

...which is a lot of assumptions to make, considering the flavor was off on the vezok-kill.

QFT. It really sucks that we lost N0 because we'd know for sure, but that makes sense. If Gandalf got a fish overnight, and is scum, he'd know that Espeonage was a safe bet for today because no one else could confirm his role/alignment until tomorrow.

[Switz]

--Xite is lying. He is scum and either he or a scumbuddy killed Vezo. Gandalf roleblocked Espeonage, and no one received a Magikarp tonight. There is no other Vigilante or SK.

--Gandalf is lying. He is scum and either he or a scumbuddy killed Vezo. Xite Vigged Espeonage, but Espeonage somehow managed to survive. This is either because Gandalf is really a scum roleblocker who blocked Xite or because a Doc (who should not claim unless absolutely necessary) saved Espeonage.

I disagree with this. There is one more option- Both Xite and Gandalf was not lying. Xite vigged espeonage, but somebody blocked Xite or docced Espeonage. Gandalf blocked Espeonage. The scum is somewhere else.
What Switz proposes here is a false dilemma.

I think in a game where we have nonstandard roles like Lightning Rod and Friendly Neighbor, the odds of us having two roleblockers is slim. Although there could be a doc, so you're right. There is the possibility that both Xite and Gandalf are telling the truth. But I still don't think it's very likely.

Also, while I wish MBF would nameclaim and stop beating around the bush, I'm not sure pursuing it is productive for now because his refusal to nameclaim is striking me as more due to arrogance than scumminess. And while I disagree with almost all of Nicol's last few posts/arguments, I do think Prox should claim if doing so is not seriously detrimental to town.

[Switz]

Switz- I have role-based information that 100% confirms that gandalf is town. I don't see what there is to disagree with that.

Well, if you're scum, that'd be a big thing.

Also, let's be clear: townGandalf =/= townNicol. Scum would also be 100% positive Gandalf is town, if Gandalf is town.

But that said, I don't think Nicol is especially scummy, so I might be persuaded to vote elsewhere. I'm leaving my vote on at least until Gandalf flavorclaims though, I think that's an omission we let slide.

[Switz]

Okay, well I guess Nicol's role sort of makes sense. I'm just curious why you chose to include moves with your role selection, but that's neither here nor there.

Unvote: Gandalf

So, if we are to assume Gandalf is town for now, we can also assume he's telling the truth about roleblocking Espeonage overnight. Unfortunately, that doesn't really prove Espeonage's guilt or innocence. Lynching him will though.

Vote: Espeonage

Oh, and for the record, Gandalf, Jigglypuff is known for Lullaby, Wigglytuff's main thing is that it balloons to epic sizes, according to the anime. It just picks up the move as a side effect of being an evolution. So chill the fuck out and get off your goddamn pedestal.

[Switz]

Sorry guys, but I'm going to be V/LA until Wednesday or so; I'm going to be out of town for the rest of the weekend and I'm still getting settled back at school. I'll try to be online when I can but I'd rather keep expectations lower rather than higher.

[Switz]

Ok, I'm back and starting my reread but I can't guarantee a post tonight. I will have content tomorrow though, for sure.