Mafia on Holy Orders (Game Over!)

[AGar]

Morning folks.

Sorry, I was sleeping off work.

VOTE: Furcolow

WHO ARE YOU?!?!?

Who, who? Who, who? ~Vi

[AGar]

I must say, as a music major (who is currently being forced into a year's sabbatical), I love the constant song references.

Also Plum, I promise no post restrictions will be feigned here. ^^

[AGar]

It was a marathon game during the moving day. Jahudo's Bastard Modding.

[AGar]

I now am very comfortable with my vote on Furcolow.

"Any case pushed on me, will be pushed by scum."

So apparently no townie will push a case on him, and he deserves one of Vi's icons.

Furc, I just wanna know which TLer you are lol, that's all.

I would love to see more players participating... Wraith, vezokpiraka, Fate, and pacman all have yet to post anything. Grrr. All of you confirmed before me dammit! XD

[AGar]

My oh my, what have I missed?

Happy scumday, Plum.

Furcolow (who I assume you are Scamp?) I have seen play like this before. As town. As scum, I don't recall playing with him, off site, and NY 114 wasn't really an accurate assessment of his play. He replaced in and then out. I didn't have any real read on him, so meh. Note: If he is not Scamp offsite, this half of the meta is null.

Otherwise, I don't see the scum motivations anymore from him. Yeah, he had one small ping on my radar with the "anyone who pushes a case on me is scum," but other than that I don't see much from him in the way of being scummy. He's been pinned into a corner, and the pressure has been largely unfounded, and I know policy lynch reactions usually end up ugly. His reactions are parallel to what I'd expect a town player with a policy lynch being pushed onto him to do. Ani is just an idiot for his shenanigans with supporting a policy lynch over a couple lost games. Get over it and play this game dammit.

vezok is pinging my scum radar hard right now

Vezok has been a ghost thus far. His 4 posts include a "random vote" on the leading bandwagon, claims that it was a random vote, claimed nothing really happened today after his random vote, attempted directing the vig, but kept his vote on the policy lynch, and tries to meta Furcolow off of a game he replaced out of...

Brilliance.

Really.

Locke Lamora is also giving me some unfavorable vibes. Voting Beefster who "posted for the sake of posting," but the vote looks like a vote for the sake of voting. Then follows up with no actual reads, just "Oh hey. Here's my fence and I'm gonna sit on it for a while, ok?"

[AGar]

Preemie posting fail XD

UNVOTE:
VOTE: vezokpiraka

[AGar]

What fence? I say Beefster's come along, said what basically amounts to nothing about Furcolow and Friend and then thrown out some pointless battery-powered deadline speculation, when it's explained in the first post. And now here he goes again with post restrictions. He says that he thinks at least one of Furcolow and Friend are scum, but votes for me, and what is 'at least I've tried' supposed to mean? Do scum not try? So no, I'm not voting for the sake of voting, I'm voting because I think Beefster's scum.

You came in, said "That looks like posting for the sake of posting" and voted. Your vote looked like voting for the sake of voting. You had no real reasoning behind it. I'm posting for the sake of posting right now. Everyone posts for the sake of posting in this game, because no one has a gun to our head saying "post or die." Your logic was spectacularly awful and you're now coming up with reasons (which suck, btw).

Scum don't try? Man, I've been doing it wrong in all of my games. But you're not trying. So are you admitting to be scum?

I feel scum.
How can you vote after 4 votes in random?
I voted furcolow. I provided 114 for scum meta.
Wraith and Agar are probably scums.

unvote vote Agar

- I can vote whenever I damn well please. There is no time-table for random voting. None. There is no "There must be X random votes before real votes can be placed clause" and the only people who benefit from extended RVS are scum.

- You voted for Furcolow, and THEN, after calling it a random vote mind you, provided shitty meta from a game where he replaced in and then out before a flip. Your "meta" was he played bad and then replaced out as he was about to be lynched. Funny, I remember playing 2 days with his replacement.

- Got any WIFOM with your OMGUS?

Geez, 8 pages. I am disliking ani's push for furclowe on policy. Seems forced to me.

unvote, vote animorpherv1

8 pages and that's all you've got? Are you intent on playing the game, or will you do us a favor and request replacement? RTFT, play, or get lynched.

What's the scum motivation for defending Beefster?

Either they're scumbuddies or he's distancing himself from a possible mislynch to gain "town cred" if Beefster indeed is town.

Or... he doesn't think it's a good lynch? Why does every time someone opposes a lynch have to be scum-driven? Should all townies mindlessly bandwagon based off of what one or two people say?

Furc and Ani need to get the fuck over whatever is bugging them, because they're drowning out the thread with useless bullshit. "OMG IT'S UR FAULT WE LOST PAST GAME XXX!" "NO, AND IT WAS TOTALLY UR FAULT WE MISLYNCHED IN LYLO IN PAST GAME YYYY!!!!"

Nobody gives a damn, and if you're really that upset about it and don't want the other player to live on, REPLACE OUT. No one is forcing anyone to play this game, and Ani's constant tunneling and ignoring the rest of the game because he made a bad decision in LYLO against Furc for apparent bad play is getting really old, really quick. How about this Ani, we policy lynch you instead so you can't make bad decisions in LYLO?

Start actually playing the game and quit the tunneling on Furcolow and taking everything someone else says about him and using it to build your "case" on him, then reverting to call it a policy lynch.

[AGar]

Quick speculation: Smoke suggests contribution that Vi does not determine to be genuine, leading to a battery power-down. Policy lynches provide nothing for the game, nor did Mothrax in 184.

Ani, convenient of you to continue on with your policy lynch, only in this most recent post, it's now because Furc is scum.

[AGar]

Mothrax:

- The policy lynch alone doesn't warrant scum. It warrants an "Ani, stfu," but not a scumtell.
- AtE is null.
-

You

pointed out nothing. You echoed feelings of the thread.

However, contradictions are scummy.

That earns some major scumpoints in my book right now.

I like Zwet's reads so far, and even though he has the post restriction, I like his input overall.

Wraith is middling on a read for me. On one hand, he makes a lot of good points. On the other, he's getting a bit too overzealous on certain things, setup speculation being one of them.

I don't see Friend scum, or the motivations. He's been actively posting, showing a path of thought and poking and prodding where he sees fit. Quite the opposite right now, in my opinion.

[AGar]

The difference is ani's AtE was based on all town being idiots and that is the kind of glaring overstatement that reads as scummy to me. Mine was based in those voting for me using craplogic. I have more to say concerning ani's policy push but I am on my phone ATM.

No. This is just really stretching for an excuse to pin someone up against scum. AtE is a null-tell. Trying to pin it as any other way, especially that reaction which could be read as town if anything, is really getting you major scumpoints.

Yeah, I agree with you there.

We should watch who gets smoke/sunlight and act upon that.

You REALLY think the Mod would give away alignments in VCs...

C'mon people. Let's not be idiots here.

vote: furcolow

you are a terrible player

Is this an attempt to try and break the mod's mechanic? -_-

[AGar]

wait. fuck. Greater than now?

I thought = meant is.

WTF I are teh confused.

Vezok wagon isn't taking off.

Friend is slowly pointing out his own contradictions.

I can get behind that for a Day 1 lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Friend

People need to leave the mechanic alone for the time being, we're getting NOWHERE with it.

[AGar]

EBWOP: Woah... vote/unvote tags now get highlighted? Mind = Blown.

I think it looks silly, personally. ~Vi

[AGar]

Hey AGar and anyone else I know here. Catching up, post tomorrow.

Oh herro.

Mothrax's "Me too!" vote is hilarious. Keep outing yourself scum.

The Wraith wagon is really... peculiar. Fate caught Wraith with the deflection.

Plum is helping me fuel the vezo wagon. Now if everyone else will just get on it, that'd be splendid.

Plumposting is good posting, btw.

Plum, were you referring to this post of vezok's?

Fate must be right. He is always right

unvote
Vote Friend

If he flips town we lynch fate.

If so, I agree quite wholeheartedly with that. Actually, I can agree with that statement in regards to almost all of his posts.

Friend wagon fizzles, and I'm not gonna stick with my vote on a dead wagon when scum's a ripe for lynchin'.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: vezokpiraka

[AGar]

AGar,I am curious, If I were to "me too" vote and follow you would you be any less of an asswhole? I see you do it all the time, you just use more words than I do. Sorry, not in the habit of posting Wall o' Texts, never will unless it is an ISO.

Really? I "me too" vote all the time?

Sorry, I didn't know pushing a wagon of your own was "me too"-ing. And usually I appear to have at least read the thread in full when I hop onto a wagon, so I know my good reasons why. And if you think I'm being an asshole, you should probably avoid me. This is tame, and I ain't gonna avoid games I want cause you're gonna get butthurt.

@Plum: My gambit was to draw attackers and defenders to me by antagonizing/protagonizing as many people as possible through actions and/or analysis. That way, when I flipped town, people could get more information out of my flip than a Furcolow flip. Prozac convinced it was a bad idea by claiming that it would only distract the town from real scum.

This is a bad gambit first of all.
Prozac isn't in this game, second of all. So I am confused?

@Vezok - Quit hyperboling all over the place there. I alone can not be a wagon in myself on you. I was one vote. Your 4 posts (now, what, 7?) have all been lacking in any content and just "OMG I GOT ACCUSED NO!" So yes, I can find scum in 7 posts from one player if they play as obviously scummy as you do.

[AGar]

What in the hell is going on here.

I know people enjoy listening to what I have to say and such...
but this is pretty surreal:

Wraith gets NOTHING SAID ABOUT HIM AT ALL.
THEN I STATE SOMETHING.
*WHAMMO*
MASSIVE WAGON.

I DIDNT EVEN MAKE SPECIFICS.

I MEAN HELL, THE FIRST THING THAT SERIOUSLY BOTHERED ME WAS ON PAGE 7.
WHICH WAS SEVEN. PAGES. BEFORE. I SAID ANYTHING.
THE GAME GREW TO TWICE AS BIG, AND NO ONE SAID A DAMN WORD.

I DROP ONE LINE AND ONE VOTE AND SUDDENLY I AM THE PARAGON OF ALL THAT IS HOLY?!

YES HE WAS SCUMMY.
BUT IF THAT IS SO TRUE FOR THE REST OF YOU...THEN WHY SIT BACK AND BASK TIL ME?

HELL, AS I SAID, I DIDNT EVEN FULLY READ EVERYTHING I MISSED.
I ONLY HAD TIME TO SKIM.
BUT AFTER WRAITH JUMPED UP ONS MY LIST, I PAID EXTRA ATTENTION TO EVERY THAT BOTH, HE SAID, AND WHAT EVERYONE ELSE SAID ABOUT HIM.
GUESS WHAT.
SILENCE.
TIL I POPPED IN.

THIS WAGON IS BUS.

Why so sure it's a bus and not opportunistic scum kiting off of your "case," which if that's what it was, was quite pathetic?

[AGar]

yes AGar, you followed the wagon on wraith when your vezo push didn't work out and your most recent vote on vezo comes right after a vote on vezo from plum.
and it comes with only this under a bunch of "Plum is Good"

I never even voted Wraith, and I have previously built reasoning on vezo. Read the goddamn thread, alright? I wagonned Friend for contradictions I found, but also for a reaction. You're an idiot, and showing yourself to be a terrible player. Shape up or ship out dammit.

Why the hell are we wagoning vezo?
For Active Lurking?

Try inherently scummy behavior in his minimal posting, hopping on wagons for no reason, complete and deliberate OMGUS voting and lovely contradictions like ISO #1 (not 0) and #3. Care to read things, or are you and mothrax going to be so ignorant to the rest of the thread all game?

Friend, vezo is the better wagon. Look at his posting, look at Wraith's. Wraith isn't completely obvious. AtE is null, and I can say that completely with him - he does it regardless of alignment. Resigning to the lynch though, I've only see him do as town. He usually fights to the death as scum.

[AGar]

Apologies for my absence. I was down with my girlfriend enjoying some time off, then came back and dove into MLG Raleigh stuffs. Now to answer things since I've been gone.

@Mothrax - Hopping back onto a wagon you tried to push when it gains support != buddying. Learn to fucking play.

Oh hey, a Vezo wagon day 1. I have yet to see a game that he is in where this hasn't happened.

Hey, Agar! I KNOW you've played with Vezo before. How is this any different from how he normally plays? And I don't want to hear any "I don't care if he does it every time he is town, it's scummy ANYWAY" bullshit.

I've never seen vezo as scum, he acted like an idiot when he was confirmed town in one game that I replaced into 90 pages in, and in the other [redacted - ongoing game].

So you may be able to meta him, but I have not seen a scum meta, nor am I inclined to build one atm, so I'm going with what I've seen other scum do.

---

Day 2!

Scamp/Furcolow, you're terribad. But probably just idiot town. This isn't TL, and L and Ace aren't here to save your ass buddy.

Mothrax, you're terriworse. With that having no reflection on your probable alignment. However, your behavior says scum. Let's string up you or Vezo (I'm still up for that wagon).

VOTE: Mothrax

[AGar]

vote:Furcolow

I don't remember this being Nightless...

Did you read the OP? It's a modified Deep South.

Also, are you really going to keep on this Furcolow policy lynching bullshit?

-_-

FoS: animorpherv1

Consider yourself special, I don't use them very often.

[AGar]

Wow AGar. It's my turn to say rtft! How is my vote on furc policy?

I never said it was. I said Ani's was. So I'll see your rtft and raise you one.

He has not provided any real reasoning for his vote being based off of a case, only flip flopping after initial votes between "It's policy!" and "It's cuz he's scummy." If he has posted a case, I really didn't solidly implant it in my brain because of the flip flopping and the case conveniently building on Furc after his initial policy vote. I've basically viewed any "cases" after his initial vote as a twist of confirmation bias on his part. "I see him as scummy and thus I will vote him. This benefits my position, let me use it."

[AGar]

AGar 1 | ani 1 | Me= 0 | Friend 0 | Furc 0 | Iece 0 | Locke 1 | mothrax 1 | pacman 0 | Plum 0 PROD1 1 | Seb -- | Socio 0 | Socrates 1 | vezo 0 | zwet 0

That's more votecount numbers.

Betting it's days since last post - my counter went from 0 to 1 in my absence.

---

@Mothrax - Your saying my case is "terribad, obvscum" but you give no reasoning as to why isn't really convincing. Care to prove to me why I'm wrong? I'd love to see an actual reasoning as to why my case is bad, aside from the fact that it's on you, which apparently makes any case, no matter how well constructed it will be, terribad and obvscum.

Oh, you're talking about the whole AtE bullshit from D1 amirite? simple fix: (and I believe I have said this once already) Calling someone out on craplogic =/= AtE. I was underfire for pushing an ani lynch because he pushed a policy lynch on D1. Policy lynches are bullshit. I was called scum because of this and the fact that I pointed out his reaction to it was scummy. That is what I call craplogic.
As for lurking.... forgive me, I work 40 hours a week, and take 18 hours worth of classes. I post when I can and I can't post in all my games. I avoid prods, and try to post at least once a day, but can't always do so.
So that is the only thing I see, not much of a case.

You obviously have much to learn about policy lynches.

Not all policy lynches are bullshit.

Pushing a policy lynch on D1 with other viable lynch options because you don't like a player? Potentially scummy, but also a huge risk for scum to take, putting themselves in the spotlight.

Pushing a policy lynch several phases when a player is a complete liability (as in, told a massive lie that threw the town in one direction, but now has backtracked and completely screwed the town? Perfectly acceptable, to the town's benefit and can be pushed by any alignment.

Also, using your life schedule as an excuse isn't cool, shouldn't fly. You aren't the only one to work and go to school, ya know. If it's really that big an issue, sign up for less games.

---

@Plum:

Scummy:

Mothrax - I've outlined the case, but trying to use AtE against one player in his case, then using it and saying he isn't scummy; inappropriately identifying the underlying cause of a policy lynch as well as ignoring a meta that has been repeatedly brought up; Contradicting something he said in an earlier post; and defending attacks with "there is no case on me".

[off-topic]Hot damn, I love the way that looks. Link-cases from here on out for AGar[/off-topic]

Vezokpiraka - Start with a bandwagon vote several pages in with no content of his own; then we move to him claiming he random voted on Page 3, denying anything pertinent happened; next we have him flopping to say that Furcolow is actually scum and not a random vote target; now blindly following Fate while setting up a backdoor if it fails; absolutely no pro-active thinking or scumhunting from him; and complete and utter fail logic.

I haven't really pegged a solid 3rd read, although Locke Lamora pinged my radar early on with his vote for the sake of a vote and his poor follow up but other than that, he's been silent, null. I'll have more of a read on him when he starts posting.

Furc and Ani are both reading serious VIs to me atm.

Funnily enough, about a month ago, I'd crucify you for asking for this. Thought it was a bad idea and such. Anyhow, town reads (I'll give you two, I'm in a giving mood right now) would likely be you and Zwet. Clear lines of thinking, trying to get the town pro-active and giving off reads. Poking, prodding, individual thought processes.

---

FURCOLOW - You are Scamp. Confirm/Deny?

[AGar]

i don't distance myself from wagons
i hammer as a townie when i think someone is scum
i will bus my team as scum
youre off on me, socrates
i thought your case would be better than that, considering that it is entirely wrong

lolWIFOM.

Why exactly are we waggoning M=W blindly again?

[AGar]

WIFOM is null. I was just laughing at it.

I honestly think you're town atm. Don't start flailing yet.

Why would you be willing to switch to mothrax?

[AGar]

whatever
wifom is null

incorrect. Arguing something based on wifom is scummy.

This is where I disagree. Several players have hammered the "WIFOM argument = scum" tell around the site, and I couldn't disagree more.

Using WIFOM as an argument is a null-tell. It just means the argument itself is incorrect. It isn't indicative of alignment. Now, if you can see a reason that it would be beneficial to a scum motivation to use WIFOM as an argument, I'm all for lynching that person. But just saying "They're arguing with WIFOM" alone is not enough. Even as a defense, all finding WIFOM does is tell you that that persons defense of the actions is null. It doesn't make them any more or less likely to be scum.

[AGar]

Yeah, whatever Soc.

M=W is scummy cause he's pressing for VItown lynches. AKA "easy targets."

For pushing a lynch on Vezo - whom at least 2 other people have declared scummy (myself, Plum - I'm sure others have seen the light as well) and Furc (who several other people are pushing the same lynch on), he's pushing for VItown lynches?

I call bullshit.

[AGar]

@ninja edit:

agar, you honestly find me scummy? I thought you said you found me town? How is that bullshit, then? Flip-flopper.

Um. No.

It's bullshit that he's "only pushing VItown lynches."

There is a wagon on yourself. Whether you are scummy or not, M=W is not the only one on that wagon.

Vezok is scummy, so that's not a VItown lynch. That's a scum lynch.

The bullshit is the misrepresentation by Friend to further his agenda.

[AGar]

AGar- Regardless of actions, he seems to be acting as Plum!lapdog. His hipocracy in rtfts is also noted.

You're a fucking idiot. I'm about done with you, I'd rather you just get daykilled at this point then continue with your incessant babbling.

Maybe you shouldn't call my "rtfts" hypocritical when you don't even know what you're talking about.

You've been harping on me "following" Plum based off of my switching BACK to the vezokpiraka vote on Day 1. Let me point some things out for you:

I first announce suspicion of Vezok in post #170. Plum has not even so much as mentioned vezok as of the time of that post. I vote in an EBWOP in post #171. Still no mention of vezok from Plum. I am the second player to cast a vote on vezok all game, the first being Wraith, for similar reads to mine. However, he quickly changes to a FoS one post later, two minutes after his initial vote. I then respond to vezok's weak defense. Plum still has not even so much as mentioned him yet. I admit to no vezok wagon and switch to Friend in 339. Plum has not posted in between these posts. Finally, 40 posts later, Plum addresses vezok and votes him. In that very post, she mentions "vezok wagon is back on," acknowledging the initial push on him not caused by her. In my next post, I switch back with the support of at least another vote, hoping to gain traction.

If you think abiding by Plum's request and finding that to be a pro-town action on her part, I find you a joke as a mafia player. You should probably PM mith about deleting that account.

I have scum meta now
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14990

so you all can see i'm town this game based upon that

stop my lynch right now

You really are an idiot, aren't you...

Bronze-league mafia players at it's best, right there.

I don't play the same in any two games.

Lies.

And in the same post, you ADMIT to tunneling, but that's not as important as your filthy, filthy lies.

We should lynch pacman today and m=w tomorrow.

Setting up lynches now, huh?

Let's flip a coin. Mothrax heads, vezok tails.

Both are incredibly, uberifically scummy. I'm game with either lynch, honest to god.

[AGar]

agar, tone the ad hom down or i'll take it up with the mod

Go for it. You should probably replace out instead though. I'm not changing my playstyle.

Furc,

it is really hard to read you

..town or scum,

you are just a bad player

…

Anyone else believe the bold and italicized parts make a sort of oxymoron?
Mafia as a game has a goal of people not being able to read you. If people don't know you're blue, or if they're blue/green and they don't know you're scum, and can't "read you", that's a good thing.

You saying this, curiouskarmadog, just shows me you haven't read up on my play. My play is the most blatantly obvious because I actually post like a human being.

This is terrible posting. Not being able to be read is a terrible thing for the town.

It's always in the best interest of a town-aligned player to play a strong pro-town game. If every town aligned player does this, then scum are forced to either really appear pro-town or just fall by the wayside and get lynched because they aren't.

You should really stick to Road to Rome for a while, it'd do you a lot of good.

Furc, I'll spell it out for you:

Your own opinion of your playstyle isn't worth A GOD DAMN THING. Everyone is going to think they are the most obvious townie in the bunch. If you're town, and a chunk of the town thinks you're scummy, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. Instead of flailing around with "I'm obvtown guys!!!" you should start scumhunting and actually producing something and maybe, just

maybe

the heat will be off your back. Saying "X thinks I am scum, but because I am not scum, X is scummy" does NOT constitute scumhunting.

---

@Mothrax

Because your stance is basically that of mindless paranoia, as perfectly encapsulated by the phrase "Because I refuse to let someone pull wool over my eyes?".

I've already talked about this, this game, with Friend.

Echoing this sentiment. It really sounds like your "suspicion of everyone" is a great way for you to leave open options for switching to other lynches with the justification of "I was suspicious of him, I'm suspicious of everyone!" I don't like it, and it looks like a great scum out.

[AGar]

I somewhat agree with AGar's last post until the part he starts getting offensive with Furc.

Which part? The telling him I'm not going to stop my playstyle and he should replace out part? Or the telling him how people will be less inclined to think he's scummy if he's truly town part?

I love how Furc makes a big stink about it, while I tell Mothrax to DELETE HIS ACCOUNT and he just moves on with the game.

Seriously people, CONSISTENCY much?

[AGar]

Because I chose to move on with the game... by pretty much ignoring most of what you say. I sift through your points and ignore you if you talk about me. you take issue with the way I play, I take issue with the way you play, said and done, I am over it. I'm in this game and I'm not gonna replace out because one player thinks I suck. You get to deal with it.

I was more just pointing out consistency issues, as pac is jumping on my case about it, but whatever.

I somewhat agree with AGar's last post until the part he starts getting offensive with Furc.

Which part? The telling him I'm not going to stop my playstyle and he should replace out part? Or the telling him how people will be less inclined to think he's scummy if he's truly town part?

I love how Furc makes a big stink about it, while I tell Mothrax to DELETE HIS ACCOUNT and he just moves on with the game.

Seriously people, CONSISTENCY much?

No. The part when you tell him to go back to the road to rome. Not useful, and offensive.
And telling moth to delete his account? stop acting like a bastard and scumhunt for serious.

Apparently you missed my post with cases. You should go read it. Then tell me to stop acting like a bastard and scumhunt for serious. I'm just waiting for folks to come around to the idea of lynching Mothrax. Also, telling him to go to Road to Rome is constructive criticism, I feel he could benefit greatly from an ICs presence to iron out some of the kinks in his game. But that's neither here nor there, and I'd like to see YOU start to "scumhunt for serious."

---

Oh hey looksie what I found:

quote="AGar"]as well as ignoring a meta that has been repeatedly brought up

I am not the only player to ignore it, and furc has no other defense than "omg gus look at my meta, i can't be scum which nullifies meta. as pacman said, meta used as selfdefense is null

[/quote]

I was talking about Ani you dolt. You completely ignored the fact that Ani is typically (sorry Ani) a VI-ish player, and instead tried attacking a wagon on him. Apparently you need a lesson in VIs - VI is really greek for scumbait. As in, you were very easily baited into taking after the easy wagon on Ani. Except people here knew his meta, and statements such as "Ani is being Ani," have been thrown around.

[AGar]

especially on day 2, you should be scum hunting, not looking toward the "gods" for help...

So says the player who just posted "I think X is scum" about every player in the game trying to figure out the mechanic?

Riiiight.

[AGar]

1) misuse of words
2) disapproval of ad hom
3) active lurking

I smell a contradiction.

Oh, you caught yourself.

But how about this one?

And stop with your filthy, filthy lies.

[AGar]

pacman (L-4) ~ Plum, Socrates, vezokpiraka, SocioPath

Give 'em to me.

I already have - vezok.

Vezok and mothrax, both uberly scummy. Both deserving of lynching. Get mothrax first, then kill vezok. Or vezok first then Mothrax. Your call.

[AGar]

I was talking to zwet, but whatever.

Mothrax needs to go before vezo. I wouldn't mind seeing vezo eat some rope, though.

Yeah but 3 hours ago all he said was "cool."

I figured I'd point that out anyways.

And I'm fine with Moth first. Just want something to happen, honestly.

[AGar]

I don't actively lurk. I am the most prolific poster within this thread hands down.

OH DEAR, THIS MAKES MY EYES BLEED.
Indeed, posting a ton of spam without content is as active lurking as punching in to post things without content each 48 hours. Post count is a good reference factor, BUT not an objective factor. I

c

ould give you an example, hadn't that example been an ongoing game (which it is...)

I am not satisfied with any of your responses, either, and you are not making sense if you're town. What does the case on mothrax have to do with the case on you? are you saying you know mothrax's alignment?

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!?!
You're the one who makes no sense. What makes you think I do know mothrax's alignment? What makes you feel unsatisfied with my answers?

ad hom is a shortened version of a term for slander/baseless attacks which generally contain many cusswords
attacking the person instead of their argument

I'm not sure, but I think I get the definition.
However, what makes you think I'm making ad hom? Answer please.

no, it is not hypocritical

FALSE

i do not actively lurk

FALSE

i spam, if anything

TRUE

and don't call me scum, when you are the one who is more likely mafia

Hypocrite. hahahaha...

This post is terribly scummy. No way you can miss this, guys...

Furc, you active lurk. Deal with it. Pacman has scum on his wagon.

Possibly, but:

You can't say "Pacman has scum on his wagon" and then not name names.

ok, well, i'm happy with a couple wagons rolling
and i still dont believe i actively lurk
i always post when i get on
plus it's good to pressure people the way ive been pressuring pacman for town imo

This post IS active lurking. And scummy.

Guys, I might seem like tunneling, but that's it. Neither vezo nor mothrax need the noose yet (I see both them scummy, but not much; vezo has been lurking (inactive?) and wagon-hopping like hell, and I like Friend's (or who's?) case on mothrax). Furcolow has clearly earned it himself.

Up until recently, I've seen Furc as VItown.

Mothrax and Vezo have been incredibly scummy since the get-go pretty much. Both are much more worthy of the rope right now.

[AGar]

I think we should test the battery theory.
Let's quick lynch furc and see what happens. Or we ca wait for time to pass until the battery is down at 5% and then lynch furc.
Anyway I won't change my vote. Sorry.
He had the worst bus in the history of mafia.

unvote
Vote furcolow

Actually, if Furc is scum, this might be the worst bus in the history of mafia happening right now...

I've always just assumed the remaining battery power recharging to just be the battery mechanic starting up again for the next day. I dunno, guess I over-simplified it?

Anyways, it's already been said that mechanic speculation is useless right now.

@Soc: Why a massclaim when we still have some 13 players left? Have you figured something out about the setup that we should know?

[AGar]

pacman, i would give anything for you to replace out if you are town, because if you believe that, and are not lying scum, you are the worst mafia player i have ever seen

I'm lol-ing with irony.

I actually agree with a lot of vezokpiraka's listings, other than me being scum. If he claimed I'm simply scummy, I can agree/cope with that, but I am not scum. His list is more on "who is acting scummy" and "who is acting pro-town", when the most pro-town appearing players can end up being the demons that are among us brothers.

i am very glad socrates is defending me, but know that scum will defend townies that they believe will possibly be mislynched

Poisoning the well much?

Might have the wrong term, but it basically looks like you're setting up for a future lynch there.

*sigh* VIs are the abominations of mafia.

Need to re-read Pacman, but I'm debating the nature of the wagon's forming... Not sure where to stand on it.

I guess this is the part where I promise you all a wonderfully detailed catchup post, but instead I'm just promising something will come tonight.

[AGar]

Glad you promised something, because that post was horrible, judge

and no, i do not plan to lynch socrates, xvart, or plum. thanks for the shit-slinging.

So it's ok for you to go "I like that he's defending me, but all may not be what it seems," but when I bring up the possibility of scum motivations for that, it's "shit-slinging"?

i just read Pacman iso, I don't see the suspicion or the wagon on him. He's acted middle-of-the-road at worst, and last I checked, skimming wasn't a tried and true de facto scumtell. I've found it null. So that point is gone, modkill fishing isn't scummy either. The case just doesn't convince me.

Vezok wagon just keeps looking better and better. I said yesterday I'd be willing to lynch him or Moth yesterday and the other today. Why not just go through with what I said - he's just proven himself to be more of a pestilence, now sticking a vote down and refusing to budge.

Socrates, what's the hardline reasoning behind a massclaim?

VOTE: vezokpiraka

[AGar]

Hmm.

Interesting, I think I'm game with Soc.

vezok wagon is good, yes Friend. And yes, pac - OMGUS to the max.

@Locke - Is that singular suggestion of a massclaim by scum the sole reason you are wary?

[AGar]

Socrates you know what I am going to claim.
\I was a vanilla at the beginning but on day 2 I got a power. No. I won't say what power.

Die scum, die.

Furc, you're an idiot. Seriously.

[AGar]

Lol more mechanic speculation, people trying to clear themselves on mechanic speculation, and furc calling me a terrible player. Wasn't it you who threatened to bitch to the mod if I didn't stop the ad hom? Lulz.

Soc, sorry, but I'm not blindly buying this one. If he's so town, there's surely a way you can sell me on it without putting your role info at risk. Otherwise, my votes staying on the player I find the scummiest. "Just believe me" isn't cutting it here - I've never been a man of faith.

Anyone notice that Furc's only stance of late is that every lynch is a bad one?

Also, Plum, I don't think everyone is insinuating that Soc is anti-town, that's a huge stretch imo.

[AGar]

reasoning: has smoke, also wagons way too much, which limits my analysis or the ability to hold him accountable

This post disagrees with your belief in your vote.

"Has smoke" is terrible reasoning to vote someone.

Let me clarify...

WE HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT SMOKE MEANS OR LIGHT MEANS. THERE IS NO UNDERSTANDING OF THE MECHANIC AMONG THE PLAYERBASE.

You also are wagoning just as much as him.

So are you saying you're scum?

I'm all for a vezok wagon, but I do believe that Furc is scum. His recent play has convinced me against my initial idiot-town read.

[AGar]

Hmm... 13/4 is actually sensible, especially since it's been mostly vanilla up until now on flips.

I think with the limited flips we've had showing no town PRs of any sort up until Soc, 13/4 seems most likely. A 12/5 might be a bit of an imbalance in scum favor, and 11/6 is definitely a broken setup without a myriad of town PRs, which we haven't seen. We'd be at 6/5 right now if it was 6 scum. After 3 days, in a large, that seems insane.

Anyways, aside from setup speculation, it seems Soc must've tracked Vezo. I dunno if he was assuming that there were fewer scum or what, but either way, scum saw him as a problem, so Vezo is likely confirmed by that logic.

Furc trying to get town to rally around him is pinging my radar as a scum move. I dislike his "Whatever," hammer, and his posts after "I thought you were scum or a town PR, but didn't know alignment, so I hammered."

Terrible posting.
Terrible playing.
Scummy player.

VOTE: Furcolow

[AGar]

Do I think I've done anything scummy? Sure. A few PR softclaims, claiming townie, wishy-washy voting, but these are all typical town behaviors from me.

Exactly my point. Furc is VItown via meta reads.

Show me Furc town meta and scum meta you're citing. Asap.

Furc, self-metaing is basically a no-defense from me. Claiming that you are town because of attempted wagons is a fail. Just like you. Your contradictions are EVERYWHERE (see the most recent about smoke/light speculation). You are either very very bad town, or you're scum.

[AGar]

*judge, sorry, thought that was a friend post.
I can't reference it, because it's from an ongoing game. I will be able to show you what I'm talking about pretty soon, Judge. Hold your horses if you're town. If you're scum, continue to convince me through this mislynch.

I'm patient, but if by "hold your horses" you mean remove my vote, do not.

Also, I told friend to provide that meta, not you. I want to see his thought process.

[AGar]

Town meta = ongoing game(s)
Scum meta = furc posted it earlier in the thread bro

Lemme say this about meta -

IT CAN BE CHANGED

. Everyone using meta as the fucking holy bible needs to be shot. Repeatedly. In the head.

It's also (afaik) a fairly widely accepted belief that a few games can't be used to establish a VItown/scum meta.

If we were scum together, I would be telling mothrax what to do.
As it was, I was all over his wagon, regardless of who was there at the end. I was arguing with his stupidity, whereas I should have been ignoring it altogether as it was obviously scum. He had his vote on me for like 2 weeks, though, and you're judging I'm scum, Judge? That makes me believe you are scum trying to get an easy mislynch. I've said this like ten times now, and I'm going to keep stating the facts if you are lying.

Ok, this is textbook WIFOM right here, so you've basically said to me "I have no defense for what you're accusing me of. Instead, I will tell you what I would've done as scum, so you will think that I am not scum, but what if that's what I want you to think, etc etc." WIFOM indicative of scum? Nope. But you haven't cleared yourself of anything in my eyes.

My case on you is hinging on you spewing contradictions everywhere throughout this game. Personal experience in several other games has shown me that players that make repeated contradictions of themselves are scum. Why? Because scum need to make up a lie to be on their feet, often forget about said lie, and then backtrack over it inadvertently later in the game. I've found plenty of yours.

You want to keep spewing that I'm "scum for pushing the easy mislynch," go for it. But two problems with that. First of all, you obviously aren't an "easy mislynch" if you're still alive. Second of all, I have a case backing it up. You're going to have a tough time debunking contradictions, now aren't you. Also, it's not like I spent all of D1, D2 and D3 pushing for your lynch. Quite the opposite, actually. But I invite you to try and disprove my contradictions I've found.

Previously pointed out:

Here.
And here.
And one more time here.

Smoke/Light: This post is in direct conflict with these posts: 1 2 3 4 5
Confidence: I can't find the main post I was looking for after my browser reloaded, but needless to say, you have flip-flopped back and forth countless times between "I am sure he is scum!" (Going so far as guaranteeing a Vezok-scum flip) and "I am not sure of my reads, I can't read alingment."
Meta: This post is in direct conflict with these posts: 1 2 3 4

You say that you/Mothrax would've been hard cross-bussing? Funny, because Mothrax and I were pretty well at each others throats, no? So wouldn't that nullify any read you have on me? Or is this just another one of your convenient inconsistencies? You can't say you're town because one player treated you a certain way and then ignore that the same interaction occurred on a player you're trying to call scummy.

Someone re-highlight the Beefster/M=W case for me.

Beefster is scummy as town. I haven't seen his scum play, but I've played two games with him as town, one where he was replaced out because of lurking, the other where we lynched him as VT. I'm sure I can dig up a scum meta on him to compare. As for M=W, this is similar to the town meta I've seen on him. Again, though, as I said... meta changes. I'd really like to see a solid case though, considering people are continuously advocating for his lynch, and I've yet to see a good reason why. Until then, I'm comfortable with my vote.

Friend is null-read.

We need moar Plum, asap.

[off topic]Finally, Furc. Do me a favor. Stop calling me judge. It gets annoying trying to figure out who you're talking to only to realize it's me. I don't use that handle for anything more than keeping an account at TL and lurking/trolling some of the forums. I didn't get "laughed off TL", ftr. I quit on my own. I was signed up for a recent game with no hitches, actually. So you might want to check the facts there.[/url]

[AGar]

Why would you want to wagon an active town poster who could be held accountable? We need to wagon someone who is lurking.

I cut the self-meta bullshit.

I'm not metaing you, I already stated my feelings about meta.

Why should we be wagonning a lurker? Scum target easy lynches, no?

Friend, shut the fuck up with your defense of Furc and do some fucking scumhunting. Seriously.

[AGar]

the fact judge is getting mad shows my defense was better than he liked
also the fact he didnt really respond to me makes me want to bang my head into the desk, because i am fairly sure he is town due to his interaction with mothrax, and I want us all to be on the same page.

I got mad? I said I'm ignoring self-meta. And then cut a hole in some logic, asked WHY we should be wagoning lurkers (answer pl0x?) and moved to Friend and emphasized he needs to do something.

I also dont want to be the third voter on a wagon, as that is indicative of scum, and I am not scum.
If you have questions, AGAR, ask them.
I will be completely helpful, honest, and cooperative.

If you're town, you shouldn't be worried about looking like scum.

Why are you worried of following a very weak tell that is indicative of scum?
Why should we be wagoning lurkers as opposed to players we find scummy?
What gains do we get from wagoning lurkers?

Who are your top 2 scum reads, lurkers not withstanding?

Why are you still contradicting yourself?

Vezok - Why are

you

choosing M=W?

[AGar]

For the first question I asked - it's a general sitewide belief that town should not be interested in their self-survival. They still can win if they die. Worrying about your own death is something scum tend to do, as it greatly hinders their ability to win the game.

For the second question I asked, I want to know why you're concerned about looking like scum. It has been addressed.

For the third, how do you know that they are lurking scum and not lurking town? Lurking is a null-tell. Active lurking is different, but you do not seem to be specifying.

For the fourth, so you'd like to run up wagons and possibly claims on people just to get them to post? There's things called prods. And replacements. Both much more effective, in my experience.

The contradiction here is:

the fact judge is getting mad shows my defense was better than he liked
also the fact he didnt really respond to me makes me want to bang my head into the desk,

because i am fairly sure he is town

due to his interaction with mothrax, and I want us all to be on the same page.

If I was scum, you can guarantee different people would have been dying in the night. Plum would not be alive.

anyways

vote: zwetchenswasser

reasons:
he hasnt posted since september 5th, his goofy post restriction early on, and I am willing to die tomorrow if he isnt scum.

and wifom is only an argument mafia use to make town look questionable the way you and

your scumbuddy judge

are using it

Look at the bold.

I didn't even post in between the two posts. What so emphatically changed your reads?

I'm not spouting lies about contradictions. I'm following up on a scumtell that I have seen success with in the past. You have contradicted yourself on multiple occasions. It doesn't matter if you disagree with them, it's what everyone else believes of them.

I'm not tunneling nonsensically - I'm simply gunning for who I find scummiest. I'm not ignoring other players, in fact, I've actually requested things from others in this very game in each of my 3 previous posts.

So far the only defense of you I have seen is Friend spouting "meta" which I don't buy, and you with a mix of WIFOM ("No.. if I was scum, I'd have done

this

..."), self-meta and asserting that you are obviously town based off of interactions with one player, while trying to accuse another player who had similar interactions of being scummy (hey look, there's one of those contradictions I pointed out, in detail). In my eyes, that's no defense. Also, about the mothrax thing, there's a little technique scumteams can use called "breaking the meta" where they do the EXACT opposite of what one would expect. It can easily be followed with a WIFOM trap of "Dude, there's no way I could be scum with him - it would be suicide for scum to do that." You're damn near close to following a similar path here with your assertion that your interactions with mothrax are clearing of yourself.

[AGar]

AGar, really? I'm not scumhunting? I insisted on mothrax-scum for a long damn time and I've been saying M=W is scum for a while now too.

Anyways, check this out: Furc town meta

HE IS ACTING EXACTLY THE SAME. EXACTLY THE MOTHERFREAKING SAME.

HE IS NOT SMART ENOUGH TO DELIBERATELY CHANGE HIS META.

THEREFORE, HE IS FUCKING TOWN. THERE SHOULD BE NO MORE CASES ON FURC.

It's ONE FUCKING GAME.

And he's not as fucking stupid as you think he is, trust me.

Your logic fucking sucks.

And today, you have only poached an easy wagon on M=W based on what - Beefster's slot - and defended Furc.

[AGar]

This game is devolving into pure ad hom and I'm dying with laughter.

Friend, did you ever even consider that Furc is a bit smarter than you've given him credit for and might have learned to try and emulate his town meta as scum? If this is his town meta, it's really not that hard to play like a VI.

Let's just ignore meta for a post. Honestly. I want your uninfluenced opinion.

I have highlighted MULTIPLE major contradictions in Furcolow's posting this game. Contradictions that can also be chalked up as backtracking. He has provided no defense other than sidestepping the issue at hand, WIFOM, self-meta-ing and ad hom.

Last I checked, none of those 4 are actual defenses for actions committed by a player.
Last I checked, I have found scum contradicting themselves in their posting.
Last I checked, backtracking was a widely accepted indicator of a player likely to be scum.

If this was any slot other than Furcolow, committing these same actions with no prior meta to use, would you find them scummy?

Since I have OPENLY declared that I do not feel meta is a strong enough reason to dispell these suspicions, and I've given support for that belief, what is wrong with my case? If I don't buy into meta defenses, what real reason do I have to believe that Furc is town?

Also, don't misrepresent me - I don't want you to shut up. I want you to stop spewing a meta defense of Furc and convince me that he is town some other way and convince me that another player is scummier than he is, leaving meta out of the picture.

[AGar]

Friend. Answer my questions.

[AGar]

@Friend: Questions in this post.

Furc, don't answer questions for other players, or are you trying to cover a scumbuddy here?

I didn't ask why you're town, so kudos for not reading posts. Also, if I generally disregard meta, why would I care about your LYLO results?

[AGar]

Friend, you're still ignoring my questions.

Furcolow, if you're too fucking ignorant to realize the contradictions that I pointed out in your own posts with links, then that's tough. There is no elaboration why each specific contradiction is indicative of scum. If you'd read my posts, which I don't think you did, you'd have noted where I said (multiple times) I found it telling of scum when players make multiple contradictions of themselves. Not players who contradict themselves on X or Y issues. Just contradict themselves.

[AGar]

Is your question why is Furc town besides meta? I don't know. He's not. But when he acts this way in every game in which he's town, and acts in a totally different way when he's scum, I think he's town. You're obviously not going to listen to me, but the point remains.

Duly noted.

[AGar]

Friend, you're still ignoring my questions.

Furcolow, if you're too fucking ignorant to realize the contradictions that I pointed out in your own posts with links, then that's tough. There is no elaboration why each specific contradiction is indicative of scum. If you'd read my posts, which I don't think you did, you'd have noted where I said (multiple times) I found it telling of scum when players make multiple contradictions of themselves. Not players who contradict themselves on X or Y issues. Just contradict themselves.

If you had actually read MY posts, you would understand that I disagree there are contradictions there whatsoever. Also consider my recent post has gained light and yours smoke

Friend got smoke two. He's on the opposite side of things as I am.

Kinda shoots a big fucking hole in your logic, huh?

If you disagree on the contradictions existing, then I really have no use for you. You see, I don't have to convince you that you're scum. I have to convince the rest of the town to help me on your lynch. If they're going to ignore it based on "meta," I can't help that. But I have never been one to just abandon a suspect because people wouldn't go with it to begin with.

@Everyone, save for Friend and Furc

: What are your thoughts on the case I have presented against Furcolow, citing his multiple contradictions? How do you feel the meta that Friend has found factors in? I want to hear responses to this other than Friend citing meta and Furc digging his heels in for defense and throwing any other ideas of scumhunting to the wind.

Is Chrono being replaced? o.O

I presume everyone is disregarding Socrates' apparent negative track on Vezok, and that's why people are advocating a switch to him?

[AGar]

EBWOP:

Friend got smoke too*

I speek ennngrish gud.

[AGar]

How about you feign a post restriction that only allows you to post intelligent thoughts?

Also, do tell me. Are you confident in your reads or not? You've said both this game, I'm unsure of which to believe.

[AGar]

Pac: Ad hom is attacking a person and not their argument, a logical fallacy.

Hello Haylen.

Really just frustrated that people are dismissing an obviously scummy player on "meta." If you allow it to happen like this, eventually he'll just start playing like this regardless of alignment. Then what?

People make no sense anymore.

[AGar]

I completely disagree with the meta argument. I think meta is really important in a game because a scumtell for one person may be a towntell for another.

And what about the fact that people can change the way they play? How does meta fit that?

Your post has been complete fluff-type crap. You try distancing yourself from Vezok's scummy play, but then you just honestly provide nothing of your own. :golfclap:

Furc wagon isn't going to go anywhere cause of this meta crap. Which is bull, but whatever.

Haylen(vezok) wagon go!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Haylen

[AGar]

Well that's interesting, then. Lol.

[AGar]

AGar, Haylen is a bad lynch, due to Soc. I'm fairly sure he got a null track.

So?

Track isn't exactly 100% confirming, is it? Not like his track said "Vezok is innocent." Said Vezok didn't carry out an action that night.

I eagerly await Furcolow's "scumhunting."

Sidebet on a vote on me now that my vote's off of him?

[AGar]

vezlie-d2ability: Vezo/Haylen had an ability used on D2. Maybe confirming them as town. Some info might be nice, Haylen.

It looks like it says "Vez lie - d2 ability"

Vezo soft-claimed a power Day 2, could this be saying that he lied about this?

[AGar]

I have read the full game yet, that's why. I've only read Ten pages back.

And what about the fact that people can change the way they play? How does meta fit that?

No matter how much glitter you sprinkle on turd to call it art, it's still a turd.
You can change the outside but you can't change the inside. There will always be subtle clues.

Actually, AGar, you'll find that I have asked several people questions in that post about why they're doing what they are, I don't call that fluff: I call that analysis.

Questions like asking why Socio voted one person or why Chrono is playing follow the unknown mechanic doesn't warrant analysis. It warrants you trying to slip by with minimal effort because Soc semi-cleared you and you don't want to fuck that up with a massive scumslip.

[AGar]

Smoke: chronopie (through animorpher’s post 41, 1419), Haylen (through vezokpiraka 407), friend (1343), Furcolow (1380)
Light: Iecerint (138, 1403), Friend (224, 1350), pacman(789), ckd(830, 1383), Furcolow(1102, 1347) chronopie(1376, 1419)

using the information friend was given, myself, friend, and chronopie are cleared
i don't really believe this, though, just trying to be helpful

i am sorry my scumhunting is being a little slow. let me have a little time for a re-read.

The problem is, we don't have a source of who sent what smoke and what light. Also, I don't see any method of "clearing" players. I know you said you don't believe it, but someone might take it and run with it.

There's also no guarantee, that if one is town-aligned and one is scum-aligned, that the town-aligned mystery player contacted Friend. It seems unlikely that the scum-aligned player would contact Friend with all of this info, but it's still a possibility.

Otherwise, that's a decent post.

[AGar]

Well..

That was unexpected. Plus, the battery's at 93% o.O

M=W just really fucked up, trying to cut any chance of the track.

I will say that I find it VERY suspicious that the player would say "vezlie" to mean Vezo+Haylen. But I'll bite for now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Me=Weird

[AGar]

That's L-1, although I think all of the less-than-capables are gone.

[AGar]

Plum + Friend votehopping isn't indicative of scum here, as major events keep happening to sway the direction of the game (the message, the claim).

[AGar]

Interesting going-ons. Now, I want to hear from furc first, but

if we can lynch vezo(haylen now) that would be fine

by me. In any case, a furc lynch isn't going to happen.

Unvote

Vote Me=Weird

Why are you trying to prevent someone with a track from using their ability?

Nice catch there...

I'm willing to let haylen use her one-shot track for the good of the town. Vez "lying" about his N2 ability doesn't even make sense.

vez "lying" about his n2 ability is possible IMO.
However, I do agree on that we should let Haylen use her track ability.
The question is: on who? Or we do let her choose at will?
Also GUYS WE'RE NO LONGER IN A HURRY, UNLESS THE HOLY ONES ARE SCREWING WITH US. WE DO NOW HAVE PLENTY OF TIME.
While it looks like the M=W lynch is a given, we should try to use this chance the holy ones gave us.
@AGar: We do have 93% battery because Vi got delayed with the votecounts.

Unvote

until we do decide on these topics (i.e. whether we do give Haylen a target or if we do let her choose).
PEDIT: Thanks for hurrying the lynch needlessly Furc.
The unvote obviously applies no longer.

I know it's at 93% as opposed to 100% because of a delay in VCs. What I'm curious of is why it's at 93% as opposed to 7%.

In other words, it doesn't strike you as strange that we just got a massive extension?

[AGar]

I think M=W got lynched before Pacman unvoted. I am confused about the massive extension. :/

Did we ask for a claim from him first?

Furc was already on the wagon. He voted again after I put M=W at L-1. That's ignorance to a whole new level, especially if he didn't realize his vote was already on the wagon, that means he either chose to blatantly hammer or ignore every post after his prior post.

M=W is at L-2 right now.

I'd like to see his response to ignoring Haylen's tracker claim for whatever reasons they may be.

[AGar]

furthermore, pacman, am I not on the M=W wagon? Did I not just try to get him to say something through faking a hammer?

I thought you only thought the votecount reset?

Which is it?

[AGar]

"I then realized my mistake, but wanted to see"

Your post that I quoted most recently indicates an original intention of this ploy without realization of a mistake.

[AGar]

lol @following light = scumhunting.

Also lol @ the way delayed OMGUS.

[AGar]

it's not an omgus if i'm voting him for voting with mothrax... that supercedes my voting him because he voted me then. i don't even really care that he was voting me as much as i care about the circumstances surrounding that.

your defense of him is noted, considering you've been defending him all game.

lol what? What defense?

Point out 5 posts of mine where I defend Pac.

Or quit spewing garbage.

[AGar]

^ So, that looks like the guy in charge of DARK is upset that I called the LIGHT guy town and that I was wrong that both had both OR that both had different gradations.

ALSO -- there was an error in the relevant post -- the *DARK* guy lampshaded the ancient VC rather than the LIGHT guy subject to Vi's correction.

So basically, re-reading this, you are parroting AGar's defense of pacman?
It's all WIFOM anyways, really, Iecerint. Assuming there is a good and an evil, the evil one could have marred the good's helpfulness using the battery power.

So wait. I've defended Pacman (not sure where) but I still have yet to see those posts I requested.

@CKD - My vote was on M=W for completely blowing past the claim by Haylen, no matter how ridiculous it is seeming, and just trying to string her up. Although I think Furc might need a pretty good length of rope, ignoring any questions levied at him.

@CKD & Haylen - What's the matter with giving town reads, exactly? Citing town reads also helps narrow down the lynch pool, increasing success. If I think people are town, and I give my reasons why, someone who may have a null read on them pulls them from their lynch pool.

@Furc - Respond to this, please.

[AGar]

instead of spouting off town reads...why not just give scum reads...why paint a kill target for scum? Top two scum reads from everyone would not only make everyone declare a stance and "narrow down the lynch pool", but will not expose those who the town believes to be the most town....

it is a scum move that only benefits scum.

Negative (I've pulled this stance from our mod actually).

Scum will kill who they want to kill regardless of who we tell them is a townie.

Top two scum reads from every player doesn't establish a hardline stance from anyone. Scummy players can clear themselves.

It's very difficult for you to flip yourself on a town read, without a pretty good reasoning.

It's very easy to detach from a scumread if things aren't going the right way.

[AGar]

it's not an omgus if i'm voting him for voting with mothrax... that supercedes my voting him because he voted me then. i don't even really care that he was voting me as much as i care about the circumstances surrounding that.

your defense of him is noted, considering you've been defending him all game.

lol what? What defense?

Point out 5 posts of mine where I defend Pac.

Or quit spewing garbage.

I hope you don't really believe I need to site 5 posts
I'm pretty sure I could pull 2 or 3. Are you denying I could pull 2 or 3?

Yes I am. I said 5 because you said I've been defending Pac "all game." I'd like to see this.

[AGar]

it's not an omgus if i'm voting him for voting with mothrax... that supercedes my voting him because he voted me then. i don't even really care that he was voting me as much as i care about the circumstances surrounding that.

your defense of him is noted, considering you've been defending him all game.

lol what? What defense?

Point out 5 posts of mine where I defend Pac.

Or quit spewing garbage.

I hope you don't really believe I need to site 5 posts
I'm pretty sure I could pull 2 or 3. Are you denying I could pull 2 or 3?

Yes I am. I said 5 because you said I've been defending Pac "all game." I'd like to see this.

Well, are you disputing you just made one a couple of pages ago? Because we can sit and quibble about this all day.

Friend, you're being a lot quieter than your typical town meta
what's up man?

Yes, I'm disputing that I defended him at all. I never said anything besides "Lol @this" or "Lol @that"

[AGar]

So you're saying gut is your reason then?

[AGar]

I'm going to ignore the mass of ad homs and all that bullshit.

Furc, claiming that someone feigns V/LA because your bring up valid points is really fucking low. Not even in game, just personally. Learn to back off. Not everyone holds mafia in their top priorities as you seem to believe they do. Shit happens. Life happens.

Anyone who isn't voting M=W right now needs to give a damn good reason, especially after that last post he made, where he declares basically that he has a fence, and he will sit on it.

[AGar]

because i dont think he is scum....no amount of bullying will make me vote him if I dont think he scum....

Agar, I have asked repeatedly for 2-3 points of why he is scum...but no one to include yourself has responding to my request....convince you think he is scum...

Read the thread instead of talking about yourself in third person, and maybe you'll get some of that tunnel vision out of your head.

I say why initially when I vote. I then answer you directly.

Also, I don't buy gut as a reason for scumhunting, except for extreme circumstances. This is not one of them. This is you taking a cop-out on actually pushing a case on who you supposedly suspect. There are multiple people here who are scummier than Iec, and who have had cases laid out on them, but you're tunneling Iecerint, saying it's gut.

In one post you manage to blatantly override yourself saying it could be gut, but it probably isn't, but it likely is.

M=W continues to coast by, doing nothing. Now he's asking which post I mean by "that last post he made." This is called stalling folks, and he's obviously succeeding if you're not going to take any action.

Furc, get off Pacman right now. He's not being lynched today. Your case sucks, your logic this game has sucked, so follow my lead and vote M=W right now. They're not town because they're acting scummy. You're trying to force slips out of people now, where there are no slips to be had. He never contradicted himself. Friend HIMSELF has admitted to active lurking this week.

I hope that loaded gun of light/smoke backfires on one of you fuckers pretty soon.

[AGar]

Plum, get that vote off Iec. You're wasting your time with that drug addict CKD.

Real wagon is on M=W, and it's good.

None of this "It's gut, but it's more than gut" bullshit.

[AGar]

M=W is the best lynch dammit.

By voting Iec you're allowing CKD to get away with doing nothing here. GJ.

[AGar]

Agar, is my "doing nothing" scummy? Why or why not.

when Iece flips scum, how will that affect your opinion? What will you be saying tomorrow if M=W flips town?

Scummy? Yes. You're not actually contributing in a way that you can be read. Looks somewhat intentional.

Iec likely won't flip scum, at least I doubt he will. If he does I'll be shocked. It'll affect my opinion in looking for buddies, that's all.

If M=W flips town, I'll admit I was wrong, move on.

P-Edit: Really now.

[AGar]

lol, M=W was lynched??...mother fucker....cant wait to hear what Agar and pac have to say today.

Same thing I said I'd say: I was wrong. Let's move on. If you feel there was an anti-town motivation behind my push, analyze it. But sorry that I think players who act on "gut" are crocks.

I th

i

nk we should lynched M=W t

o

day, for the

r

easons that have already been stated. I am s

e

riously pissed that he didn't want me to use my track, it's not ofte

n

that I get to have any sort of ability in a gam

e

. I would also like to know why Iec was so in

t

erested in discu

ss

ing the post in which

I

got told I had my a

b

ility, I was also like to know how,

c

learly, Iecerint knows that the scum give abilities.

You'll notice that some of these letters are in the colours of the rainbow. Ignore the ones that aren't, they were used as red herrings to prevent scum from killing off my target just in case.

What letters you have left, you need to put them in rainbow order to find the name of the person I targetted.

I
E
C
E
R
I
N
T

Iecerint.

I targetting Iecerint because I was getting some very odd vibes from him that I couldn't put my finger on - like I did with Ojanen in Ladies Mafia. I also believed it was feasible that he would gather a lot of heat rather soon in the game. Thus is my rationale behind my action target.

I did received "no result", so I conclude that either Iecerint has a hiding ability or there is a roleblocker in the game. If that player is scum, then I was obviously targetted because of my tracking ability and not killed because that would be stupid as I could still be lynched. If that player is town then they will receive a rather pissed off response from me after the game. If that player I town, I will not ask them to make themselves known, just...don't do it again. That was a one shot.

This post, this is called an "oh, shit!" post. This is the post of scum who false-claims to buy themselves some time, then doesn't think it all the way through and has no contingency plan.

Haylen is scum, and the claim was a crock to get her through a day. See the light people, SEE IT.

VOTE: Haylen

Hmm. She's now claiming to have seen Iec go to Furc.

I still don't buy it. The story seems all too convenient.

Haylen "I got no result. I may have been blocked or Iec might have a hider ability"
Iec "I went to someone"
Haylen "Oh wait, I think I got a result! Was it furc?"

Note how she never says with CERTAINTY that it was Furc. She asks, like she's taking a stab in the dark.

Now, she's grasping at straws saying "It had to be this person who sent the message!"

Let's think:

If she says that only two people call her that nickname, and neither of those two people are in this game, what benefit does the person get from using a butchered half of that nickname - that isn't obvious as a nickname, and can be taken in a connotation in a completely different direction - in a message to SOMEONE ELSE? Too much room for error, I think. Too much grasping at remote possibilities to try and justify this lie, keep the aura alive.

[AGar]

This post, this is called an "oh, shit!" post. This is the post of scum who false-claims to buy themselves some time, then doesn't think it all the way through and has no contingency plan.

Sorry, but no. I breadcrumbed my target remember? Have you ever ran up your inbox to full capacity? If so, you'd be able to confirm that trying to see that message is stupid. And there's a lot of players still left in the game, how could I guess that Iecerint had targetted the person whom I believed the be the scummiest player that day in order to NEIGHBORIZE THEM. Think about what you say in context before you post it, please.

Haylen is scum, and the claim was a crock to get her through a day. See the light people, SEE IT.

Again, I breadcrumbed my target. You're really grasping for straws arent you.

Guess what. YOU FUCKED UP.

Point out the T. PURPLE ISN'T IN THE RAINBOW. ROY G BIV MOTHAFUCKA. With ROY G BIV, YOU HIGHLIGHT IECERIN.

WHAT NOW. WHAT. NOW.

@CKD:

Yes, a stab in the dark, absolutely. But assuming that there are more than 2 scum left and Haylen is one, she can actually narrow the pool down quite a bit. 9 of us alive. Let's say 3 scum, since 4:13 seems like a fair and balanced number. Haylen has a 1 in 5 shot of calling the correct person. Assuming she uses the logic that Iec will not target someone who is pushing his lynch hard (pretty logical), and he will not target someone inactive, that eliminates CKD and Plum (and potentially pac). Narrows odds down to 1 in 3. 33% odds aren't too bad.

Seriously, this fake-claim was such a bad attempt to get through to the next day, she FUCKED UP THE BREADCRUMB.

Let's see:

1) She claims "gravedigger" and a "1-shot track"
2) She first says "I received no result," and leaves herself outs. Ignoring the connotation of that line where it could be taken as she physically received a PM saying "No result," she says that.
3) Then, when called on it by Iec, she backtracks. Now, Vi didn't get her PM.^[1]. Then she received a result shortly after and she asks, not definitively says, it was Furc.
4) She ANNOUNCES a day before she is breadcrumbing.
5) She fucks up her own breadcrumb.

[1] - Let's think about this one for JUST ONE MINUTE. We're talking about Vi here. We're not talking about me, or Nikanor or some other mod. We're talking about mother-fucking Vi. God(ess) among men. Do you REALLY believe Vi would let his/her inbox fill up while modding a game, where an action could've been missed? IT IS A LIE. I SWEAR TO ALL THAT IS ME THAT SHE IS LYING THROUGH HER TEETH.

Scum caught. Lynch her dammit.

[AGar]

EDIT: Just realised what happened with the Vi's PM. Whenever a person's inbox fills, it says in very small writing that they're role PM's are on hold until they sort it out. Sorry, so sorry, I didn't notice this. I did get a result on Iecerint. He targetted Furcolow. Confirm or deny?

Ambiguity. You never specified "my box got filled."

I assumed you weren't referring to yourself, as thus.

@peeps

Pardon me, but I'm not exactly keen on "pro-town uber alliances." Take a look at Open 239 (Ythan's C9++) to see why.

Haylen, I haven't been only pushing you based on Vezok.

Vezok wasn't a push for VI ness. It was a push because he was really scummy in his actions, as I highlighted.

You came into the spot I was most suspicious of. The claim smells of stewing bullshit to me, and your follow up doesn't help.

You say that there are 7 colors, but 8 letters. I didn't accuse you of that. I accused you of an inconsistency. You said that the letters were the color of the rainbow, but one color didn't match. Its not that your point wasn't clear. It's that I found a hole in your fabricated story.

You have had inconsistencies all over the place. That is what I have pursued you for. NOW you're resorting to AtE.

As plum pointed out, you've basically accused people who find you scummy of being scum because they find you scummy and misrepresented their points.

@CKD

The breadcrumb itself? Perfectly unimportant. The consistency of her story, especially when it's shrouded in suspicion? Completely and utterly pertinent and needing to be vetted completely.

[AGar]

Wow. Just wow.

/facepalmofepicproportions

We have scum handed to us on a silver platter, and pac follows up with Lincoln-esque tunneling and Furc has more bad logic. (Conf town Iec =/= guaranteed masons. He could target scum, ya know).

A re-read is necessary at this point.

[AGar]

Reread is complete.

Furc, aside from not sacrificing my reads for an "alliance" that I'm not a part of, I said that Iece can target scum. Not Iece targetted scum, that he can. Which means until he targets confirmed town, nothing else matters.

Haylen flip heavily implicates Iece-scum, at least from my logic and POV.

Haylen claimed a 1-shot tracker via gravedigger. She claimed that Iecerint targetted Furcolow once she got her result. Now, there is a possibility that Haylen-scum had a partner that is a tracker and had a positive track on Iecerint, but it makes no sense why Haylen would fabricate a partner's claim, thus sullying his or her out if run up to a lynch later on, and use such a poorly fabricated claim in the process. I highly doubt that Haylen expected to coast on that claim to endgame, I think it would be terribly foolish of a player to believe they could ride that claim all the way. Meaning that by using this claim with a scumbuddy tracker, Haylen has now sealed the deal for two players, which could be the entire remaining scum team at that time, or 2/3 of it. It just doesn't make sense as a play for that combination.

Haylen + Iec could be feasible. Haylen claims tracker, and tracks to Iec's neighborization. Haylen maybe gets an extra day out of things before getting taken down, but it doesn't directly screw Iec or incriminate him. It's a safe play, it doesn't necessarily cause too much direct collateral even if Haylen goes down in a burst of flames.

The only thing I wonder about is Haylen's sudden death, whether that might have been an attempt to cover any possible connections by her team in some form, if one of the !!!! players is scum.

For now, I'm comfortable with the deduction I've made.

VOTE: Iecerint

[AGar]

What's the case on SP?

I see lurking and one post about Vezo-meta?

Convince me pl0x. Re-read should be quick though.

[AGar]

/prodded. I liked your previous picture moar Vi.

Plum's still not voting. Battery's at 24%. SP is spouting shit. What's new?

And you're not either.

Hypocrisy much?

Also, Chronopie #2049: Baaaaa

Goddammit.

I'm not thrilled with SP lynch.
But it's decently pointed.
But I want Pac or Iece lynched.
Fucking battery powered deadlines.

How many unspeakable things do I have to do to get my Iece lynch?

[AGar]

Pac is suitable.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pacman#####

L-1. That be claimin' time for ye.

[AGar]

>.<

but no NK.

This intrigues me a lot.

This starting of the claim is interesting. I'm intrigued to see where it goes.

Also, lol @ CKDs breadcrumb. WTF mate? Haha.

[AGar]

Jesus christ CKD.

Pretty sure that's completely illogical to farce, considering one screw up could take the whole thing down. I don't have the patience to break that kind of code.

VOTE: SocioPath

[AGar]

Ugh. Meta defense. No.

[AGar]

CKD is town. I'll trust his gut. Iecerint is probably the more likely scum anyways out of him or Chrono. Furc is town.

VOTE: Iecerint

[AGar]

Chronopie needs to be not-lurky so he can hammer scum. Srsly.

[AGar]

Vote: Furcolow

I'm not quite ready for this, though.

You're gonna need a mighty convincing case with that.

By the way, let me note that I absolutely abhor players like Chronopie, who randomly V/LA and lurk half of the game away. Not personally, but it bugs me when players disappear for a long period of a game. -.-

[AGar]

EBWOP: Wow, ignore that rant. I didn't read Chronopie's sig.

[AGar]

Remind me why Furc is town, or more likely town than Chrono? It should be clear that it's most likely between me and Furc, unless Chrono or you is a Tracker-RBer (or there are already half-scum, which...).

It's true that some of the scum interactions with Furc make him look town, but something to consider is that Furc is viewed the way zwet used to be viewed on this site. You should expect somewhat higher levels of bussing than is typical.

(The same's true of vezok, too.)

I'd encourage you to read SP's iso.

Furc's reactions to the wagons, as well as to the attacks levied on him are those of a likely town individual, not a scum player.

I'm not going to cross-meta Furc when I don't even meta people, c'mon now.

And what about SP's iso? He got vigged after he got gambitted by a doctor. His posting left almost 0 connections.

[AGar]

Literally half of SP's posts are about Furco, and another quarter or so are about me. If you're trying to evaluate Furco and me, I would argue that SP's iso is quite informative.

I already gave my take on SP's iso here.

Half of SP's posts are not actually about Furc, unfortunately for you.

And also, he never once mentioned Mothrax, so what's your point about his interactions?

[AGar]

Good bussing, AGar. Mad at myself. Annoyed at myself for clearing him, but hoped that at LYLO there would be more discussion . . . I dunno. Anyway, the lesson is once again clear: if you bus your buddies long before anyone realizes they might need bussing, it pays big dividends.

It was funny. I came into this game, got scum and was highly excited. Then I saw my partner was Vezo. Instantly, I knew I was bussing, based on reputation alone. He made it a decently easy job to setup in his first few posts.

Bussing is a habit of mine sometimes because I like working alone, knowing that I call the shots. Ironically, I hate serial killer roles, as I just found out. Probably because Mafia you can bus for major credit.

For my partners, after this game, I was a little sad to see Vezok leave the site. While he isn't a paragon or don corleone candidate, I saw some really solid scum-thought behind his play in our QT that shocked me. Haylen was screwed from the get-go, and I probably would've called BS about the "Haylie" bit as town as well. Mothrax did a wonderful job once we discussed in our QT that it would be beneficial for each other to keep the heat on, as it would do a great wonder to clear me or him if the other went down. Him keeping up the act of wanting me dead really sold me some pro-town points. SocioPath deserves my unending praise - without him and his uncanny ability of avoiding the lynch, I'm not sure we would've won. Seriously, the guy nearly bit the bullet once, which would've sealed my loss. Then we had a shift to Pac with a potential viability for a mislynch on CKD the next day, bringing us into a 5:2 situation, with an easy path to LYLO or MYLO.

Which leads to my next thing. CKD - Props for that gambit. I nearly shit a brick when I saw that, and instantly knew there was no way out of it. Not with Plum surviving. The bit with Iece being at L-1 before CKD's zeusbolt sucked, because I wanted soooo badly to hammer him away, knowing Chrono's lurky nature. (Chrono, I really do apologize for my remark earlier. Hope all is well.)

Overall, this win goes right up there with my first game on MS as probably a tie for my proudest scum victory. I loved the setup Vi, it was amazing. The Holy Orders mechanic was a great one. Unfortunately now I really need to re-tool my scum-game, as I've heavily bussed in two of my past 3 games as scum that wrapped.

[AGar]

NKs:

D1 Vezo insisted on the Fate kill, although IIRC, he also had the idea of a Plum kill, which I vehemently opposed, as Plum was agreeing with me on bussing him. I really didn't care about the kill at the time, especially because D1 is usually when I set up my gameplan. So as scum, I'm not particularly fond of the nightless setups, because it forces me to pick a kill before the day wraps. Often times I'll wait on kills and think up hairbrained scenarios.
D2 was Mothrax and Socio's kill. I don't know who was killed actually. Lol. Oh, it was Zwet because of the PR/holy shit Zwet is uber-something feeling.
D3 was Socrates. Tracker was dangerous, at least in my eyes.
D4 for Friend was, at least as I recall, because Friend had gotten that message, and it showed trust from the other god, and therefore he needed to die.
D5 Plum choice was obvious.
D6 would've been CKD. Instead it was Furc once CKD got struck down.

I found myself forgetting about our QT quite often, as during Day I'm not used to co-ordinating. Instead I plan my actions and act on them on my own impulses.

Blocks were arbitrary for some reason. I actually don't remember why I didn't block CKD that night instead of Iece. We knew he submitted an action :/ But it worked out in the end.

[AGar]

I think my new avatar is fitting, yes? ^^

And Vezo, don't sweat it brotha. Like I said, you engineered some pretty good thought, I think, in our QT.

Also, I had no clue there was an actual gravedigger role? Lol I was so confused at that point.

[AGar]

I agree with not maximizing the qt... It pissed me off a bit... Sp was In and out and agar likes flying solo... Most of the talk that did happen was after my lynch too...

Yeahhh.... sorry about that. ^^

I dunno, SK would theoretically be perfect for me... but then it's a combination of town and scum. And that's just weird. Like... it's like a bisexual mafia role.

[AGar]

@gamma: But Furcolow had a QT with Icerint, right? So why the fuck did he vote the only person he knew was definitely town?

Had a QT yes, but doesn't mean he's conf town. Iec tried to neighborize me at one point, and I was all like "Fuck no brotha!"

[AGar]

Dear Iec,

What ever made you think it was a good idea to neighborize me in ANOTHER game? Especially when I forgot our one neighbor QT?

<3s,
AGar