Mini 1039 Lost: Season One (Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

/confirm

[MagnaofIllusion]

In case Reck didn't mention that I was V/LA this weekend -- I am.

Have only a few moments to post quick thoughts -

Vezo is probably a lyncher with Dekes as his target and has cobbled together some craptastic story to back it up. This is based on a very quick skim but is what is coming to mind of the top. I also have huge issues with a specific statement Vezo made but need to read the thread in depth to gauge who else disliked it.

Reck being the Mod certainly doesn't mean that the lyncher target can't be scum.

In any event several scum likely hopped on the whole Ethan Rom claim.

Based solely on what is right above me and his jump -

VOTE: BloodCov

Also for the record - I've seen every episode of Lost so please don't try pulling any crap flavor information in thread.

Far-Sera : Vezo is not a good policy lynch. There is sufficent meta to read him floating all around the site to decide if he is Town-VI or Scum / 3rd Party VI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Regarding the Vezo Cop / Lyncher debate –

Dekes is scum. I called it here and now. I want credit for it.

This is posted before the game actually started. Vezo acknowledges that he knows the game wasn’t currently started in post 18.

So if he is a Daycop (as is being claimed) he made his scan and got his response before the game was started by Reck. That seems unlikely.

Or he’s an autotargetting Daycop.

Or he’s a lyncher.

Obv solution is obv.

Also this is vanillaless if I remember correctly.

This is scumtastic. Depending on how player react it gives the scum team a roadmap to who is likely VTs and who are Power Roles.

I am day name-cop. I targetted Dekes with my ability. I picked him at random and I really want to see something.

So you are claiming that you role-copped Dekes (a new to MS player and not an Alt IMO) over any number of proven vets?

Sorry. When day was first announced I sent the ability and checked the result when I came back.

This doesn’t seem to jibe with your Post 16 where you claimed Dekes was scum before the Day started.

Good luck with that, scum.

How is suggesting a policy lynch a scumtell?

Actually if VEZO is a daynamecop he'll be able to give us another name tomorrow with no worry of roleblocks. I mean if he dies tonight well his flip confirms Dekes as scum, or if he dies and flips lyncher it confirms dekes as Claire.

We can test him tomorrow by using his daycop to guess someone's name. If he guesses right - then he's prob town and dekes is prob scum, if he doesn't welp we know he's lying scum/lyncher. Anyone have any thoughts? I actually think it's a pretty good idea.

Regarding your assertions –

1. If Vezo is NKed / lynched and flips Boone – Daycop that confirms Dekes is scum.
2. If he dies and flips Lyncher how does that confirm Dekes isn’t scum? Claire certainly could be part of a flavor scrambled Mafia.
3. If Vezo is a Daycop how does it confirm him as Town? Scum Daycops are fairly common. As scum he could easily ‘confirm’ the fake claim of a Scum partner.

I don’t really see any upside to Vezo ‘proving’ himself. That said I don’t see his play as coming from scum.

I feel that if everyone name claimed only then that would make it harder for others to fake claim later. just my opinion =/

1. If scum have fake-claims how is this useful?
2. Why don’t you consider that Reck could also easily monkey with flavor in determining who is scum?
3. How isn’t this asking for Town PRs to out themselves?

Scumtastic, all the way around.

Post is noted that you first brought up the idea of a lyncher.

Your point?

Also why can we assume that name claims will out PR's? Yeah, Jack is a really obvious one, but what the fuck else? Hurley? Serial Killer? Come on.

If you can’t come up with likely Lost characters who align closely with Thief (cop variant), Vig, Miller or Masonizer you aren’t trying very hard.

My vote is where it stands because I don't believe dekes. It's also a good way to test vezok's claim. I'm starting to slightly doubt it, but it's not enough for me to move my vote.

You don’t believe Dekes, but are starting to doubt Vezo? Fencesitting anyone?

Ademisk, it makes no sense for vezok to just declare someone Ethan, because It's incredibly likely that we're lynching Dekes today, and then if he isn't Ethan, Vezok is in some shit, which is why I believe Vezok, and I'd guess the same is true of FaraSera.

Lynchers usually are removed from the game the instant they accomplish their goal. Vezo’s play makes no sense as Scum but plenty of sense as Lyncher.

At this point I’d be willing to lynch HH, BC, Longing or Vezo. Giving Vezo his lyncher win doesn't serve Town's purposes if Dekes is Town. So far I see little evidence that makes be believe Dekes is scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, why are you willing to lynch HH? You only commented on one thing he said, and that was to ask a question.

I would think it was clear what HH, BC and Longing all have in common. They voted with Vezo’s fake claim with abandon. Mark my words there is at least one scum in that group of three. Guarenteed.

I claimed not because Fara asked me but because I had no way of forcing the dekes lynch.

You claimed because your poorly designed gambit blew up in your face.

Even if you wouldn't believe me as a name cop on day 1 I had the masterful plan of guessing chesskid's role as Hurley.

Before I decide whether to push strongly for your hanging or to perhaps give you a chance to get a win down the line I want this question answered Vezo –

Is your information that chess is Hurley based on role information also?

For the record your “I’ll make you pay if you don’t let me win” sthick isn’t a very positive way to approach Town that has you by the balls.

I'm outguessing the mod. I also believe Claire's probably gonna be town.

Don’t expect me to jump on board. Until we see some sort of scum flip I’m not ruling out the possibility that the scum is hidden in the Season 1 Losties protagonists (ala the first Harry Potter Mafia or Reck's recent It's Sunny Large game).

It would have been in scum;s best interests to ruin vezok claiming so this argument could be played out longer probably resulting in a nonscum lynch, from dekes/vezok.

I disagree. It would have been in scum’s best interests to get Dekes mislynched based on Vezo’s fake claim. Vezo then also leaves the game and scum get their regular NK. Three non-scum players down without a mis-Vig. You know, like HH, BC and Longing tried to do.

1. You assume they have fake claims. If they did, this would be the first game that i have been in that scum were given fake claims aside from just suggesting that they claim Spartacus.
2. Are you suggesting that a trio of like... Jack, Kate, and Hurley would be scum?
3. It's possible. However if scum did not have fake claims it could be useful.

1. Scum getting fake-claims isn’t exactly a rare happening. I’m going to assume it a possibility if they aren't directly imbedded in what would be thought to be traditional town roles.
2. The First Harry Potter Mafia and Reck's recent It's Sunny large game. Expecting that everything MUST follow your flavor expectations is short-sighted.
3. But it is useless (and very likely against Town’s best interests) if they do have fake claims? If so I’m not willing to throw scum a huge bone by outguessing the Mod on fake claims.

The person who brought up the idea of someone being a lyncher is (imo) just as scummy as someone who brings up the idea of a jester. It's a scum tactic to distract the town from a possible scum lynch.

I love how your ‘tell’ glosses over the fact that I was right

Personally. i think giving scum fake claims whether full or not makes for a lazy and poor scumteam.

Great. What does this have to do with anything?

Let’s look at the HackerHuck, BloodCovenant, and Longing bandwagon jumps and reasoning shall we –

Premise

– Scum were more likely to push the presumed mislynch of Dekes based on Vezo’s gambit because they knew he wasn’t scum. Vezo’s claim was readily discernable as fake – I made the correct call in my quick read-through. Scum either has Vezo as a fall guy when things go bad or can say "We didn't know he was a lyncher" when Vezo departs the game.

HackerHuck on the subject

–

There's no reason not to give your full claim right away. Stalling = scum.

UNVOTE: Seraday
VOTE: Dekes

Claims Dekes is scum for not full-claiming to Vezo’s obviously flawed claim.

We have a day-cop who is not counterclaimed and he has called you out as his target. Not only does he declare you to have a likely scum-name, you actually claim an entirely different name. I wasn't necessarily going to vote you if said your name really was Ethan, but since there's a discrepancy here, I'm quite certain that one of you is scum. Without a counterclaim and without knowing of a day-redirector or some other obscure role that would give him a bad result, I'm going to believe him over you.

Elaborates on how Vezo hasn’t been counterclaimed and is thus credible. Soft Role-fishing for a regular cop.

BTW, we need full claims (including flavour) from both Dekes and Vezok.

I'm not in favour of this so-called test. There's way too much room for manipulation and we're going to lose the townie even if we nail the scum.

More role-fishing on the off chance Dekes isn’t lynched.

Keep in mind the second sentence when compared with the following quote.

Dekes- I wasn't expecting a counterclaim, but I'm always willing to trade townie for scum if scum is willing to fake a claim like that.

In ISO 5 he isn’t willing to sacrifice a Townie to nail scum. Yet in ISO 7 he’s ‘always willing to trade townie for scum’. Cognitive dissonance? You are soaking in it.

I'm not happy about either of them avoiding the flavour claim, but unless Dekes comes up with something brilliant I can't see a reason not to lynch him.

What exactly brilliant should Dekes have had to come up with to avoid a clearly craptastic lynch? A great role-claim that makes it even easier for scum to bag PRs?

It doesn't make any sense given what we've heard so far.

For comparison to his very next post.

I've never played a game with a lyncher before, so I wasn't thinking about it at first and I discounted it because I don't think it's that common of a role.
Those reveals really took me for a spin, so I need to go back through these last few pages again. I'm not happy with Vezok's play here, but maybe it will help us find some scum.

How were you not thinking about it when you stated in ISO 6 that “it doesn’t make any sense given what we’ve heard so far”? That sentence quite clearly indicates you have assessed the information provided and don’t see a lyncher as a possibility. ISO 7 looks like backpeddling when his stance blows up in his face.

And Vezo’s play certainly has helped us find you.

BloodCovenant on the subject

–

Ademisk is scum for attacking sera/fara and not voting dekes.

Vote: Dekes

First mention of Dekes in his ISO at all. Note the attempt to smear Ademisk for not blindly following Vezo’s craptastic claim.

Whatever you say dekes. I follow a claim of you being ethan which makes sense as a scum role what else was i supposed to do, ignore it?

If you were Town you would have questioned the obv-fake play by Vezo. But instead you blindly accepted it without giving it one second of thought. Scumtastic.

You may call me opportunistic but it was no way opportunistic. I am, believe it or not rather good at keeping track of thresholds and if someone were to come in and vote quickly I would have unvoted to let the day evolve so that you had time to claim or rebuttal. No doubt I do agree that occasionally the third or fourth vote on a player can be opportunistic. However scum-bloodcovenent would blindly jump on a wagon as the late voter with no reasoning. As you may ask what my reasoning is... well.... it's that there was a claim that your role was of an "other." And they are bad in season 1. Therefore i felt confident in you as a lynch. Note that it doesn't make sense for Scum Vezo to so early give off a fake claim though. Because i would assume he knows that if you flip town, he will be ultimately hung tomorrow. -One of the reasons why I followed him.

Anyways. I'll stall the wagon for now.

BC has been called on his horrible wagon jump and tries to immediately distance himself from the wagon. Note the heaping spoonfuls of self-meta WIFOM doled out here regarding what ‘Scum-BC’ would do. If he had any conviction in his vote being called opportunistic shouldn’t have been enough to make him do a 180 degree turn.

Not related to the Vezo / Dekes matter but noteworth also – BC still has his vote parked on Ademisk. His initital reasoning is that Ademisk was scum for not voting Dekes. He hasn’t done ANYTHING in the way of questioning Ademisk. The remainder of his ISO is filled with pointless set-up speculation, defense of his scumtastic vote, and fluff regarding his feelings on fake-claims.

TheLonging on the subject

–

Also yeah this is an easy choice, and I don't mind supporting this. Dekes even ignored vezok

Weak reasoning as to why Vezo’s obv-fake claim was credible.

I don't think this game is vanillaless, but I agree this lyncher speculation is poor

Was the speculation poor because it was derailing an easy lynch, despite the fact that it was accurate?

My vote is where it stands because I don't believe dekes. It's also a good way to test vezok's claim. I'm starting to slightly doubt it, but it's not enough for me to move my vote.

I’ve covered this previously. Putting faith in testing Vezok’s fake-claim by lynching dekes is covered with all sorts of scum-motivation if dekes is Town.

I don't believe dekes is Claire for now because yes dekes, you did ignore vezok from what I've read largely up until he claimed. And I'm not opportunistic, I tend to believe PR's unless I have previously found them scummy. One of them are lying so I'm going to believe vezok.

Why should Dekes have addressed vezo’s statements that amounted to ‘dekes is scum because I say so’? The reasoning why his vote isn’t opportunistic is craptacular since he has no indication that Vezo is actually a PR.

In summary I think all three had horrible reasoning and scum motivation to try to push through a potential Claire mislynch. I doubt all three are Mafia but know at least 1, if not 2 are.

I think Hacker or Blood are the worst offenders and would like to see either of them hang first. Since Blood currently already has a couple of votes mine stays parked on him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't really think you disagree? I meant vezok claiming lyncher - which would obviously remove the likelyhood of a dekes being lynched. If vezok hadn't claimed lyncher this back and forth would probably have gone on much longer, it was in scum's best interests to keep this charade going (under the assumption dekes is town)

If this was what you originally intended to indicate then you are correct I don’t disagree. I read the post I responded to as saying “It was in scum’s best interests to discredit Vezo”. My mistake.

Woops, obviously Claire's not a fakeclaim if it says so in Vezok's role pm, complete brain fart on my part. I meant I don't think Claire's gonna be scum in this game, it requires such a bastardisation of all flavour.

Let’s discuss this. Who do you think are reliable characters to be scum in Season 1? If Ethan Rom is a lyncher (which we likely think he is based on the facts and Vezo’s admission) I don’t see any way for there to be a scum-team of that consists of humans (ie not the Polar bear and Monster) without some bastardization of flavor.

Course Dram's vote's scummy because his reason for voting us is 100% garbage. Explain why it's scummy dram, or are you just posturing?

Um you stated Claire was a fake-claim after Vezo admitted that Dekes as Claire was his lynch target. That’s not garbage. You since retracted your error but I don’t see how it is overtly scummy to think you made a slip there.

Vezok, could you explain to me why you're speculating about everyone's rolename?
It's escaping me.

He’s living up to his VI status and quite frankly can do what he wants because people are going to ignore him now that they have a mostly confirmed opinion that he is 3rd party.

@Dramonic

– You haven’t commented on my views on HH and BC. Please share your thoughts and / or criticisms.

Chesskid assumes that the mafia have a QT - Kind of a scummy post

Ummm Mafia QTs are pretty much standard operating procedure. If you are saying it’s scummy that he thinks they have one that’s craptastic. If not please elaborate on why it’s ‘kind of scummy’.

If I were more stubborn for an easy mislynch, then I NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN OFF OF THE FUCKING WAGON!

And yet you only got off the wagon after Dekes called you out as voting in a scummy manner. And it wasn't like a sudden burst of votes followed yours. You voted Dekes to L-2. Dekes calls you on it. Chesskid unvotes Dekes and then you do stating that you are slowing down the wagon. Too late, Chesskid had already accomplished that. You don’t get Town cred for ‘getting off the bad wagon’ when you did it in response to being accused of being opportunistic.

Shut the Fuck up! You say that now because everything is unraveled already. Yea, so what you were the first person to suggest him being a lyncher. Great, more power to you. But because i didn't think of that, it makes me scum? Just because you "saw" the plan, doesn't make it obvious to everyone else from the very beginning.

I said it in my very first content post. It makes you likely scum because you jumped on the Dekes bandwagon and have tried to explain it away as ‘trusting the PR’. You can say you just missed it (the obv-nature of Vezo being a lyncher) but I’m not required to exactly believe that. Scum have motivation to lie when they are caught, don’t they? And note I have yet to say you are 100% scum. I say there is 1 scum in you, Hacker or Longing. Your responses are what I'm going to use to narrow down the scum.

Instead of calling it all WIFOM, why don't you go read my other games? You'll see how true it is.

It’s pointless. Simply by stating your understanding of how you play as scum makes any Town meta on you useless. Because your self-awareness means you can manipulate your behaviour in this game to match Town meta to your heart’s content.

Awesome, the Remainder of my iso is filled with pointless set up speculation. LAUGH OUT FUCKING LOUD!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I posted very early on in the day about some set up speculation and roles and let it go after a few responses. But you come back and bring it up later in the day... why? YOU QUESTION ME ON IT. YOU RESPOND TO IT. AND NOW YOU SAY THAT ALL I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS SET UP SPECULATION. GOOD FUCKING JOB!!!

!!!!

How nice of you to –

1. Ignore the other elements I mentioned (that it also includes self-defense and fake-claim related fluff) when strawmanning the argument.
2. Me questioning you on your pointless set-up speculation doesn’t mean it isn’t POINTELESS SET-UP SPECULATION. See that? I can post in all caps also.

When you can’t defend your posts I understand straw-manning and CAPS LAWK stupidity is all you have. Don't feel bad. If you are indeed caught scum I've seen worse flailing.

I like it how Dekes and Magna are just riding eachothers coat-tails.

Look – a statement that attempts to say I’m scummy but doesn’t actually do so because it would be laughed off the block. Care to elaborate on how I’m riding Dekes coat-tails? I know scum don’t like it when Town gets handed easy Town reads. It makes finding Scum that much easier.

How about putting together a case besides 'these guys didn't think Vezok was a lyncher'?

I see – the ‘Head in the Sand’ defense. I have to say that your response is more scum-tastic than BC’s. At least he is trying. You get caught with your hand in the cookie jar and your only defense is “You have no case”.

@Everyone not BC or HH

– Which of the two do you find more likely scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Follow-up post –

@Ademisk -

In reviewing your ISO I notice the following things –

1. Not a single vote.
2. Significant discussion about Policy lynching and methods by which Vezo’s now proven fake-claim could be tested.
3. Disagreements with FSHydra and Chesskid without any indications that their behaviour is significantly scummy.

Please provide your top three scum suspects with a short (but multi-sentence) reason why they are scummy. And accompany that with a vote for your Top suspect. We are well out of RVS and there is no Pro-Town reason not to be voting for who you think is scum.

@jenniwren

- In review of your ISO I see a similar lack of voting. I do see more developed suspicions. Why are you not voting for your top suspect (which based on your last post looks like TheLonging)?

Also, what are your thoughts on HH and BC?

@jason

– Why did you FOS FSHydra and then not vote him when you two posts later realize you still had a RVS vote? Unvoting while not committing to your Top suspect troubles me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I'm the type of person who finds every little thing thats out of the ordinary suspicious. As such, I tend not to cast my vote too eagerly to counterbalance that, which makes me seem afraid to vote. Don't worry, when I feel I have a case that warrants a vote, I'll cast it. And while its a good thing that you are able to keep up with all players, you should be more careful because my discussion of testing methods was before Vezok's final claim, and my 'disagreements' with chess and FaraSera was nothing more than a question about how to proceed.

I’m not worried as to how you operate. That’s you personal choice. That said I very much dislike players who hold of on laying votes down. Color me jaded but I personally think VC analysis is a powerful tool and avoidance of voting is a prime way scum can deflect attention form a VC analysis.

Again should I be careful? The order I listed the highlights of your ISO has nothing to do with chronology.

That said I’m somewhat put off by your response. You state that when you have a case that warrants a vote you will. And then you proceed to cast a vote for Vezo. Yet between the post where I question you and your response Vez provide no new information. Why couldn’t you have posted a vote prior to being prodded by me? The information you cite in your case was already in the thread.

And it is somewhat convenient that your second suspicion happens to be the player under the most scrutiny.

Thats assuming he is a lyncher, chesskid.

Why is Vigging him a bad move even if he is scum? If we don’t have a Town vig we can always lynch him after Day 1. If he is a lyncher then that’s a day we are not lynching Mafia. Give any potential Vig a chance.

nothing game related has come out of you, really.

PoE tells me Jenni, Jason and Ademisk,

I don’t see any very many ways that PoE is really a viable tactic currently Day 1.

How about "I have inside information that doesn't include me being a fake-rolecop/lyncher that makes me know he's a bad lynch for the town?"

God damn you dramonic.

UNVOTE: BC
VOTE: HackerHuck

Before I get into the case I want to make today, I want to answer a question that wasn't specifically addressed to me, and that was as to who could be scum out of the S1 cast. Ethan, of course would be the most obvious choice for scum, as he actively infiltrated the Losties and did very bad things. However, I am not discounting the possibility that characters like Mr. Friendly (aka Tom, who stole Walt), Rousseau, the US Marshal, or even Christian Shephard might be in-game scum or third party characters.

First let me say I REALLY dislike when players specifically answer questions for others. You’ve just eliminated the results I hoped to gain by seeing FSHydra’s response.

Bad Jenni – no donut!!!!

That said your character speculation is interesting. Tom was only in season 1 for like 5 minutes. Rousseau seems more like a 3rd party style survivor. Christian Shephard is a possibility since ‘he’ is the Smoke Monster. I’m not sure the U.S. Marshall really qualifies as scum since Kate was being brought back for murder. They all could be there in a stretch I suppose.

At this point I’m leaning towards bastard flavor Mafia by xReck.

MOD

– I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EDT until some time Monday for normal family weekend and holiday duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod accepted -

Going to be furminating the dogs and making dinner here soon.

My general Monday catch-up post will occur this evening.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcom AGar – I look forward to your thoughts on the Day so far.

First things first - Let's get things in gear people - more HackerHuck votes!!!

I never said THAT

What sort of inside information would you possible have that makes him a bad lynch if he isn’t Town? This needes to be answered pronto because he’s not stopped acting scumtastic.

I feel you guys are a bit too eager to jump off the BC wagon. I hope I'm not missing anything, but there's nothing but dramonic's cryptic quote to base your conclusion that he's a VI. It seems the standard here is that if someone claims something, people tend to trust them so that part is ok, but given Vezok's play I'm a bit worried that you aren't more careful about trusting people, especially when their reason is much weaker.

Do you understand the nature of dramonic’s claim that ‘clears’ BC? He’s claiming role-based (inside) information that tells him BC isn’t a good lynch. He’s irrevocably linked his fate to BC’s. Do I trust him? Not as far as I can throw him. Regardless he’s offered himself up as collateral for BC. There are plenty of other scummy candidates (look, there’s Hacker Huck as we speak) to push the remainder of this day. BC certainly can be tested in other methods and both of them dealt with accordingly as is necessary.

I went for Vezok because I think he is more likely to be scum than lyncher.

If you believe this what scum motivation does he have for his play? He pretty much outed himself as scummy Day 1. What upside does he have to making himself such a target? What benefit would the scum gain that outweighs outing a member Day 1?

So, it's not suspicious at all that Chesskid got off the wagon either? Even though I was called out?

Is this your serious response - Chesskid is also doing it so why don’t you go after him? Are stipulating that your play was scummy and suggesting Chesskid is also worth investigation?

Ok... you have to stop acting like you're gods little gift to the world just because you called him out for being a lyncher first. I'm sorry if i have played several games with cop like power roles during the day. For christs sake read gears of war mafia. Shit... even the mod can tell you have i reacted to that.

How does your behaviour in Gears of War indicate your behavior here is not scummy?

1. It’s an single game which hardly qualifies as meta worth relying on.
2. It’s a WIFOM statement as you can easily lean on that game when scum here.

The only reason my vote is off you is Dram’s claim. Don’t think for an instant I don’t consider you very scummy.

K @ dram's softclaim. That means we're lynching none of the following today: Vezok, Dekes, Chesskid, dram, blood as they're all obvtown/stuff/lyncher.

That leaves 7, taking away us, that leaves 6. Magna's pretty town from the remaining bunch, comfortably more than the rest, so I don't want him dead today.

From the reamining 5, it'd really not surprise me if all the scum were in that bunch. Gonna get in contact with sera but yeah, cool. Going to bed now.

Ok I need some clarification –

Is Chesskid on the first list as obvtown? Because I don’t remember anything else that puts him in the 'other' category.

Why is your vote still on Vezo when he’s on your no-lynch list?

I look forward to who of the remaining 5 you think is scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@dramonic

– Less scummy lurking and more content stat. Also my question at 290 to you isn’t getting any more anwered on its own.

Magna
-There are other games besides GoW mafia where i blindly followed a claim. I think i did the same in Dramonics bastard game as well.

So you are basically saying that you blindly follow claims no matter how little credibility they have?

You didn’t answer the question I asked – are you suggesting that Chesskid is worth scrutiny as potential scum because your unvote was scummy and thus his is also?

All of these PbPa's are scummy if you ask me. I hate them >.<

Reading isn’t a hardship. If you really think providing support for assertions is scummy then maybe Mafia isn’t the game for you.

Also, his "unvote" post is troublesome primarily because it doesn't seem like he has any other suspects, and he asks for HH's comments about FaraSera and MoI rather than making a stand of his own against either of them (Of all eleven other players, why HH?).

You highlight a quote made by Ademisk himself that says he’ll be ISO FSHydra later. Why attack Ademisk for being unwilling to looking into FS and myself when he explicitly says he will.

@MoI: I think he made a bad move and got himself in trouble. When he saw an opportunity to lessen his punishment, he took it.

How does claiming what is essentially a 3rd party lyncher ‘lessen his punishment’? He’s still a prime vig target and on the off chance he isn’t killed will be lynched before he gets too close to an endgame situation where he could help out scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD

– can we have a vote-count please?

No. You're wrong. When giving a Post by post analysis you are forced to look at one post at a time and do not generally look at the overall player. You write an analysis per post where you read every detail and you often over analyse small things as scummy. when doing it you may see that 10 out of 15 posts of his were scummy in Isolation. Therefore you come to the conclusion that he is scummy. After that it becomes fixated on thinking that player is scum. Thats why i don't like them.

1. You haven’t explained why at all PbPs are scummy. You’ve explained that you think they are ineffective. Being scummy would indicate that scum are more likely to make them then Town.
2. Digging into the details and motivations of a player is a good way to find scum, so I’ll simply say ‘No, you are wrong’ and leave it at that.
3. Your suggestion that someone who does a PbP is automatically going to fixate (translation tunnel) a person is incorrect.

@MoI: I'd have to agree with BC. If you have suspicions on one person for some action, why would you at the same time forgive another person for doing the same thing?

You are missing the important context of my questions to him.

1. First he disputes that his vote and unvote were scummy.
2. Now he’s saying ‘Why not Chesskid’.

The only reason he has to logically say ‘Chesskid should be examined’ as Town is if he feels that Chesskid voting for Dekes and then unvoting is scummy. Yet that is the exact behavior (specifics aside which I think bear much more charitably on Chesskid than BC) he has asserted wasn’t scummy when he did it.

Cognitive Dissonance right there my friend.

@Jason

– I’m not a fan of your gameplay based on a review of your ISO.

ISOs 0-4 are confirmation and RVS fluff.
ISO 13,15,17,23, 32 and 30 are regular fluff.
ISOs 7, 27, 28, and 33 are all ‘Catching up’ posts.

ISOs 5-6, are all nice broad Town sounding theoretical statements that look nice but really mean nothing in relation to the game.

ISO 8 to 12 and 14 all revolve around Vezo’s claim. The only person who gets even a FOS is FSHydra for his prodding of Vezo to come clean.

I noticed that too, It seemed like inane chatter about the show in the hopes of looking like he was blending in all while doing very little.

The statement you make about Jenni can very much be applied to you in the context of your ISO to this point involves very little scum-hunting.

ISO 18-21 are all direct interactions with Vezo who in context had already been outed as a lyncher and thus not worth hunting at the moment. Looks very much like trying to stay busy and look like you are scum-hunting while going after a safe and irrelevant target.

ISO 22 – You admit moving away from Vezo and looking for scum is a good Town idea. And yet you vote Jenni not for anything that is a scum-tell but simply to get her to ‘provide content’.

ISOs 24 to 26 are back to debating Vezo.

ISO 29 is an actual strong game related post.

ISO 30 is your PbP where you vote Ademisk. By this point Hacker and Ademisk are the strongest candidates for scum so they are both safe targets for someone not looking to make waves.

The only scum-hunting attacks you have made have been on safe or popular targets. There is enough fluff and Townie sounding theoretical discussion padding out you content that it puts my senses on edge. Little in the way of opinion.

Aside from Hacker and Ademisk who would you suspect to be a third scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Jason –

Aside from Hacker and Ademisk who would you suspect to be a third scum?

By not getting the MoI love, I mean that I don't see why so many people are putting him in their town. His claim to fame is guessing right on the lyncher and his main thrust at scumhunting requires assuming that Dekes is town.

So you choose to belittle the fact that I didn’t jump onboard and increadibly scummy claim and wagon Dekes? Interesting.

And what is your take on Dekes possibly being scum? Do you think he and Vezo devised a diabolical plan to stage a gambit that effectively sacrifices Vezo to clear Dekes? Do you think that Reck could have Claire as scum?

I’d like to know your thoughts to determine whether your objection to my suspicions is simply because you are under fire or if you have serious concerns that Dekes isn’t Town.

@Chesskid and FSHydra

– both of you currently have inactive votes. Deadline is in less than a week. What are you waiting for?

@MOD

– I’ll be V/LA until late Monday for my normal weekend duties and a long work day Monday. I will have some access but may not be able to make detailed posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Before anything is revealed I'd like to know the following -

Ademisk - How does you having knowledge of of jenni's role and name clear you in any fashion?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Before we go wild jumping back and forth based on name claims let's keep something in mind. I direct you to Reck's recent It always Sunny Large Theme game. The Mafia there was clearly not flavor driven. I am approaching this game with a similar perspective. For that reason I am not assuming that players are clear based solely on a name claim.

For all we know the scum could be Sawyer Jin and Michael ... the raft crew. Justification wise for flavor you could characterize their goal of getting off the Island by themselves as 'scummy'.

This said I treat Jason's full claim as more credible than Ademisk's name only claim.

My vote stays with HH for the moment but I am willing to lynch BC Hacker or Ademisk today at deadline.

Posted from my phone. More supported thoughts tonight when I have full computer access.

[MagnaofIllusion]

jasonT1981 [JACK SHEPHERD], Mafia Doctor, killed N1
Faraseradayaphim [SUN-HWA KWON], Nurse, killed N1

Damn it’s hard being so correct about things.

Kinda breaks any credibility of any claim if Jack was mafia.

Which is great because it means we know NOW, at the start of Day 2 we need to be scum-hunting as opposed to Role-hunting.

geez, why am I not surprised that Ademisk and Jenni are still alive <<

This is the part where I should sarcastically say something to the effect of “Why am I not surprised that you and Blood are still alive” but I’m not. Because I have an inkling as to why.

Dram I’m going to ask you this direct question. If my suspicions are correct scum already knows the facts so please don’t waffle because you want to keep them ‘in the dark’ –

Are you Lovers with BC but not alignment confirmed?

I think you read back, saw a few people point out that they didn't like my fakehammer, and you're trying for a quicklynch. Care to respond?
Perhaps with some thoughts on D1's: HH,TheLonging's Scumminess(is that you?), Vezok still being alive, The claimed Walt not being dead after softclaiming Beloved Princess?

This is all sorts of horrible.

1. How is a single vote ‘trying for a quicklynch’?
2. HackerHuck is already dead so why bring up his Day 1 scumminess as a topic of conversation?
3. Why is Vezok still being alive worth special note? The Vig / SK took a shot at someone they found scummy and it paid off with Jason dead.
4. Please point out where jenni softclaimed Beloved Princess. I see her softclaim of Walt but nothing that to me logically says BP.

More questions for you Chess –

1. Why were you so quick to dismiss HH’s claim when you accepted Jason’s so easily? You apologized for voting Jason (confirmed scum) but immediately didn’t buy HH’s claim. I'd expect Town to give a Cop claim more consideration than you seem to have.
2. Why did you immediately attack Vezo after your rather stupid Fakehammer gambit backfired? You can’t think that your gambit is going to be credible (and thus elicit reaction from HH) and not think others will think it is credible too.

THINGS I NEED TO DO IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS

–

Look at Jason’s ISO to see who he suspected and ‘accused’.
Look at a VC analysis since we have a scum-flip.

Those who are under my initial suspicion today

–

Chesskid – as mentioned above.
Jenni and Ademisk – I’m not liking the way that they ‘cleared’ each other yesterday. Additionally Jenni’s constant suggestions that scum would be people other than main characters strikes me as possible scum seeking to obfuscate the truth. Especially given that scum couldn’t have expected Jason to turn up dead.

MOD - I'll be V/LA from 4pm EDT today until Monday for normal weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1.shrug, replace 'quicklynch' with 'instead of hunting scum focusing on chess' then. Same thing.

Did you get a little too comfortable with FSHydra’s claim that you were obv-Town Day 1 and didn’t expect to be questioned? Because simply asserting that you aren’t scum as if it’s a given I find questionable.

And the phrases you suggested are equivalent are not. Quicklynch has a clear negative connotation.

2. Flips give information based on pairings look at who lead HH lynch, who HH fingered, etc.

This is pretty much basic Mafia knowledge so including him on the list of things to look at is at best superfluous.

3. Because if we get to lylo with vezok alive we're fucked, because a joint win is possible. So it needs to be dealt with. Also refrain from putting anyone at L-1 if Vezok isn't already voting, since he's going to do that shit again.

Vezok being alive today doesn’t mean he will be at LYLO. So your point is moot at this juncture.

4. When jenni said "bad shit will happen if i die" or something like that + walt nameclaim = BP softclaim.

There are other interpretations. I hope, however, that xReckx would not be so bastardlike to put a Beloved Princess in a 12 person game when it already has a Lyncher and isn’t so PR heavy that Town needs to be counterbalanced in some way.

1. I didn't dismiss HH's.

The phrase “I don’t believe you.” is dismissive. You can claim it was part of your ‘fake-hammer strategy.

Why did you put a potential Town Cop at risk with your gambit? Why didn’t you look to use it on Jason?

2. Because who the hell votes after a hammer? seriously? He knew he was the hammer, and I'm not buying his bullshit.

People do it all the time here on MS. I’ve seen it more than I can count on two hands. And how do you know that Vezok knew it was the hammer?

Again if you expected it to work on HH to get twilight opinions how can you say with a straight face that Vezok wasn’t fooled but a smarter player would be?

Seriously I didn’t like HH’s play Day 1 but he’s not a VI like Vezo.

FaraSera's flip blows a hole in my theory that Dram/BC are Sun and Jin who had the lovers role and that the death of one would mean the death of the other--which would have explained why Dram would claim what he did about not killing BC until the end (with that comment implying he maybe wasn't sure about BC's alignment but knew of consequences related to killing him).

I can see a few other possible pairings but your statement here is why I asked Dram the question I did.

And I can't 100% clear anyone but my myself; but I did say it would be an unfair scum advantage if scum-Adem had all my info.

1. I’m not sure you even clear yourself at this point.
2. What information has Adem proved he has other than your Role name?

[MagnaofIllusion]

well, I could post and say "I FUCKIN TOLD YOU SO!" but that would be kind of smug <<

Funny, because your ISO shows NOT ONE BIT of Day 1 posting where you say lynching Hacker would be a bad idea. So, yeah.

This question isn’t getting any more answered Dram –

“Are you Lovers with BC but not alignment confirmed?”

Yes or No will suffice.

Also now that it is revealed that there is a vig or an SK it makes absolutely no sense for scum to kill a beloved princess until the other killing role is eliminated.

Scum didn’t know there was a Vig / SK until after N1 so this argument only applies to why scum would kill jenni, if she is a BP, after today. So this point is moot.

He said he had all of my info.

He could have also said Death Rays from Mars were out to get the Town. Doesn’t make it true. I understand your potential worry if your role backfires on Town but your immediate acceptance of every bit of his claim when he only had proven one bit (and I’d have to look back to even see if that was true) makes me question you.

Who'se gonna kill him? Seriously, Mafia aren't going to nk him.

Now that we have a dead scum (Jason) we have some breathing room to make decisions on when to lynch Vezok if he isn’t Vigged. And this of course assumes Dekes is confirmed Town. I doubt the scum would like to trade 1 for 2 (1 scumm for lyncher leaving game and Nightkill after Dekes lynch) at this point.

Because what else should I have said to fake-vote him? Also if Jack is mafia goon how is a flavor cop even remotely useful?
Also, idr what, but Jason had a reasonable claim/someone cleared him iirc.

What good is a flavour cop? Do you understand how they work? Goons are detected by flavor cops just like any other non-Godfather Mafia. Throwing doubt on the usefulness of any Town cop role is either stupid play or scummy. Also, need I mention jason flipped MAFIA DOCTOR!

Jason had a reasonable claim. He wasn’t cleared. That said Hacker’s claim ala Hurley makes reasonable flavor sense also. If someone had cleared Jason we’d be stringing them up pronto.

Now I'm spending my time defending myself from random shit instead of finding scum, awesome.

This is Mafia. If you don’t expect to receive questions or criticism based on your play no matter how Townie you think you are perhaps this isn’t the game for you.

Regarding Jason –

Current working scum Meta on Jason is to ignore at least one of his partners. With that in mind I’m reviewing his ISO for interactions and votes.

Direct Interactions / Votes

–

ISO 1 / 2 – Votes chesskid
ISO 8 – Interaction with FSHydra and chess
ISO 10 – Interaction with Jenniwren. Also, go back and read this post. Jason basically outs the ‘Flavor does not equal show flavor’ argument right here. Interesting. Somehow I missed this before.
ISO 11 – FOS FSHydra
ISO 15 – Possible coaching of BC?
ISO 18 – 21 – Interactions with Vezok
ISO 22 – Votes jenni
ISO 29, FOS to Ademisk and HH, interactions with myself, Ademisk, Hacker and Dramonic
ISO 31 – Votes ademisk
ISO 34 – Interaction with BC

Who does Jason’s ISO completely ignore? AGar and Dekes. I suspect there is scum in there. And I’m no longer going to ignore Dekes as Claire’s connection with Jack just might be a reason for Reck to have made her scum.

Day 1 VC Analysis TBD tomorrow, probably.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Untrue. Why else would there be a mafia doctor?

Mod WIFOM. It's the same reason people assume there is a Cop when a Miller exists. Except Mods do funny things like fucking with site assumptions. Ala Castlevania Mafia.

Granted it's not guarenteed but the Mafia didn't know FOR CERTAIN until Night 1. And heck a Doc save and they still might not have know.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here is the raw data for the Day 1 for VC analysis. It may provide some information today but will be stronger down the line (so if I get killed someone pick it up and update it ).

I have swapped out all replacments so the current player appeaers as all votes in the analysis. Confirmed Town (via Death at this point) is Blue and Confirmed Scum are Red.

Spoiler: Day 1 Raw VCs

Faraseradayaphim

(1):

HackerHuck

vezokpiraka (1):

Faraseradayaphim

chesskid3 (1):

jasonT1981

jasonT1981

(1): chesskid3
Ademisk (1): Dekes

Not voting (7): dramonic, BloodCovenent, AGar, jenniwren, vezokpiraka, MagnaofIllusion, Ademisk

Faraseradayaphim

(1):

HackerHuck

chesskid3 (1):

jasonT1981

Ademisk (1): Dekes
Dekes (4):

Faraseradayaphim

, chesskid3, vezokpiraka, AGar

Not voting (5): dramonic, BloodCovenent, jenniwren, MagnaofIllusion, Ademisk

chesskid3 (1):

jasonT1981

Dekes (3): vezokpiraka, AGar,

HackerHuck

BloodCovenent (2): Dekes, MagnaofIllusion
Ademisk (1): BloodCovenent

Not voting (5): dramonic, jenniwren, Ademisk, chesskid3,

Faraseradayaphim

BloodCovenent (4): Dekes, MagnaofIllusion, chesskid3,

Faraseradayaphim

jenniwren (1):

jasonT1981

Faraseradayaphim

(1): vezokpiraka
chesskid3 (1): BloodCovenent
vezokpiraka (1): Ademisk

Not voting (4): jenniwren,

HackerHuck

, AGar, dramonic

BloodCovenent (1):

Faraseradayaphim

jenniwren (2):

jasonT1981

, dramonic

Faraseradayaphim

(1): vezokpiraka
chesskid3 (1): BloodCovenent
vezokpiraka (1): Ademisk

HackerHuck

(1): MagnaofIllusion
Ademisk (1): jenniwren

Not voting (4):

HackerHuck

, AGar, Dekes, chesskid3

BloodCovenent (1):

Faraseradayaphim

Faraseradayaphim

(1): vezokpiraka
chesskid3 (1): BloodCovenent
vezokpiraka (1): Ademisk

HackerHuck

(1): MagnaofIllusion
Ademisk (2): jenniwren,

jasonT1981

Not voting (5):

HackerHuck

, AGar, Dekes, chesskid3, dramonic

chesskid3 (1): BloodCovenent

HackerHuck

(2): MagnaofIllusion, AGar
Ademisk (5): jenniwren,

jasonT1981

, vezokpiraka, Dekes, dramonic

jasonT1981

(1):

HackerHuck

Not voting (3): chesskid3,

Faraseradayaphim

, Ademisk

HackerHuck

(3): MagnaofIllusion, AGar, jenniwren
Ademisk (6):

jasonT1981

, vezokpiraka, Dekes, dramonic,

Faraseradayaphim

, BloodCovenent

jasonT1981

(2):

HackerHuck

, chesskid3
AGar (1): Ademisk

Not voting (0):

HackerHuck

(3): MagnaofIllusion, AGar, jenniwren
Ademisk (4): vezokpiraka, Dekes, dramonic, BloodCovenent

jasonT1981

(1):

HackerHuck

AGar (1): Ademisk

HackerHuck

(3):

jasonT1981

,

Faraseradayaphim

, chesskid3

Not voting (0):

HackerHuck

(7): MagnaofIllusion, AGar, jenniwren,

jasonT1981

,

Faraseradayaphim

, chesskid3, vezokpiraka
Ademisk (4): Dekes, dramonic, BloodCovenent
AGar (1): Ademisk
BloodCovenent (1):

HackerHuck

Not voting (0):

[MagnaofIllusion]

What can we take from this information at this point –

Jason’s RVS joke vote is for Chesskid. This should be kept in the back of our minds until more flips emerge.

BloodCovenent (4): Dekes, MagnaofIllusion, chesskid3,

Faraseradayaphim

jenniwren (1):

jasonT1981

Jason avoids the BloodCovenent wagon as it forms. He chooses to go after jenniwren as a lurker.

HackerHuck

(7): MagnaofIllusion, AGar, jenniwren,

jasonT1981

,

Faraseradayaphim

, chesskid3, vezokpiraka
Ademisk (4): Dekes, dramonic, BloodCovenent
AGar (1): Ademisk
BloodCovenent (1):

HackerHuck

Jason’s position on the Hacker wagon indicates to me that there is likely only 1 more scum to be found in AGar, jenniwren and chesskid3. Having all three scum on the wagon would long term be very detrimental given VC analysis.

That means one scum is likely to be found among Dekes, dramonic, BC and Ademisk. Two possibly if the Hacker wagon was completely Town / 3rd Party aside from Jason.

The only way I see all three scum on the wagon is if Vezo is scum (which I hightly doubt at this stage) and voted for Hacker after he though Chess hammered. And that makes little sense as he was jumping ‘late’ on a Townie wagon. Which is indeed possible with a rushed deadline vote.

To do later – review AGar / TheLonging ISO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You could extrapolate from this that any other lynch is bad <_<

Also, I am not lover with BC.

Excluding Hacker from your suspect list really doesn’t scream to me that you should feel vindicated. On the other hand Jason’s flip does should give you a sense of pride.

Ok, if BC isn’t a lover why in the HELL are you defending him? You’ve stated you don’t have Mod confirmation of his alignment. I don’t see much reason other than behind the scenes role-mechanics why you would defend him so much. I’m sticking by my original assertion that we have scum in the BC / AGar / Hacker triumvirate. Hacker has been cleared by flip so I’m not inclined to continue to disregard BC based on your gut.

@Dram

– Please tell me why I shouldn’t be the little bit worried that despite your chest thumping your vote never went on Jason?

What the fuck do you want me to do? Write him a thank you note?

If you are Town your first reaction should be ‘Why in the hell is he clearing me’ because based on what you and dram has said I don’t see clear reason for him to do so. Sticking up for Town is a classic scum-move.

How was chess' fakevote bad? I mean, when comparing a real vote against a fake one, why would the fake one be worse when it deals less damage? The victim remains with 1 less vote, and I could see how you could use it to draw out those interested in getting the lynchee hammered. Though in this case, it was pointless either way since HH was already at L-1.

Well the fact that he pulled it on a claimed Cop which immediately resulted in said Cop’s mislynch should be all the reason you need to consider it a scummy gambit.

@MOI. Post 438. What else could the softclaim mean other than BP?

A lovers mechanic, for one. And just as possible a soft-claim of an important role that jenni felt would be bad for Town to lose. Why are you so sure that it is a Beloved Princess claim, even thought you state you don’t know what that means?

@MOI: Post 488. In respect to jenni's and mine roles, I've proven all that she asked. Like I said, I could prove more, but consider how much the town will gain for knowing I speak the truth (not much, since you don't trust her belief in me) vs the harm that may come from me outing her role.

This really is irrelevant to whether I believe that your ‘proof’ clears you as Town.

Adem said he knew my name and my role. I understood that to mean that he knew my character's name and my assigned role in the game. I had no reason to doubt him, because I AM Walt, and only Michael would have any reason to know that. When he claimed Michael, it would have been obvious who I was. It made perfect sense to me, and it also made sense to me that he would therefore be town-aligned.

Your logic falls apart here when you asset that his claim makes him obviously Town aligned. Jason’s flip as scum throws that out the window. Further consider this fact – Ademisk keeps referring to your soft-claim as BP. Without answering me directly on this consider – would he have any need to keep referring to your soft claim if he had direct role knowledge of your role?

Just an update: you had proposed the scum might be the raft crew; I'm proposing that they might be some of the caves crew, but I think it's kind of moot to go by names at this point.

Oh yes, and no one has answered me about this yet: how does a Mafia Doctor work? I've not been able to find that anywhere in the wiki.

My raft crew comment was to illustrate that Reck could monkey with the flavor in-game any way he wants. After Weeds Mafia he talked about having toyed with making the three kids in the show the Mafia. In It’s Always Sunny Mafia he pretty much looks to have pulled the Mafia and SK out of a hat and tailored the roles to the people. Which is why I’m more interested in interactions and VC analysis at this point than flavor.

A Mafia Doctor works exactly like a regular doctor. They protect someone once a Night from a NK. I personally believe they are much more powerful than regular doctors because –

1. They are part of the informed minority (unless handicapped, which Mods usually do by making them Isolated Traitors [see Victorian Vampire Mafia and ooba’s Mad World Mafia]) so they know who to protect.
2. They usually only have 2 to 3 other players to cover so they they have a better inherent random chance of success as opposed to Town doctors.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I thought I should address this before this bogus reason will ever be used against me.

This combined with the next quoted part is quite a disproportionate reaction. The point I was making is this – you got a pretty free ride Day 1 due to vezok’s lyncher play and your claim as Claire. Now that Jack, arguably THE main character of the show, has flipped scum you get no flavor based protect as Claire.

The reaction is noted though.

MoI, I'll definitely follow your VC analysis as it progresses throughout the game though town should not forget that if we go with this D1 VC analysis that you are a possible scum candidate, too. Basing on your playstyle there is absolutely nothing that would warrant me thinking you're scum, but I've been fooled by good scum before.
Despite all your analysis and your stating of your top suspects you still haven't laid down a vote. You aren't trying to manipulate your VC analysis by holding your vote back now, are you?

Subtle undermining (I’ve been fooled by good scum, why aren’t you voting)? Check.

We are not even four full days out from Daybreak and you are pressuring me to vote? I haven’t had a chance to ISO Agar in full yet to decide whether I think he’s the best place for my vote.

Here's the breakdown Dekes - I'm not going to label myself as clear on a VC analysis because to your perspective I'm not. But I certainly not going to pretend I don't know my alignment and include myself in potential scumreads. Cause, you know, I've got my role PM and all. You take an run with the raw data wherever you want to go. I've given everyone my thoughts.

@Chesskid - 521 and 523 aren’t Pro-Town in the slightest. Yes you do have to present cases unless you want people to ignore your statements.

No... that wouldn't be my first reaction. for christ's sake. everyone... stop asking why dram was willing to stick his neck out for me.

No, I’m not going to until I get a solid reason to ignore your play. My current belief is I should be gunning for the scum in my Gang of Three from Monday. Hacker wasn’t the scum there so it is either you or AGar. There have been way too many unsubstantiated defense claims of pairs for my liking.

BC knows why I want him alive.

Yeah that’s great. I haven’t got a clean enough answer to buy into your reasons based solely on your ‘gut’.

TBD

– AGar / Longing ISO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First up – TheLonging / AGar ISO

TheLonging I think plays a pretty naturally scummy game so I’m factoring that into this review.

ISO 3 – His jump on the dekes wagon. The reason – “dekes even ignored vezok”. A horrible reason as I’ve stated before. Also directly mentions Serial Killer without prompting. May be worth review later.

Your plan sounds good, but what do you mean guess someone's name? Like he daycops says someone's name and then that person claims name? I like that idea

Given all the discussion about potential names outing PRs this argument for going with vezok’s fake-claim is not Pro-Town.

AGar –

ISO 3 – Makes a case for HackerHuck.

Is see nothing else very peculiar Day 1 in his posts. I do note not a single reference to Jason in either ISO Day 1.

Around ISO 9 or so I see some back and forth regarding Vezok. Reading it is clear the Chesskid initiated the discussion but given his statement Day 1 to ‘stop discussing Vezok’ makes me wonder why he didn’t say that again.

I’m not necessarily sold on his Chess push which amounts to “hammer gambit was scummy’ and ‘he’s scum for not having a good reason to vote me’.

ISO 17 – “I want an explanation. And I want scumhunting, not gut” I’m not seeing significant scum-hunting in your ISO AGar, so this rings false as a double standard.

I don’t like TL’s vote on Dekes. I don’t like the lack of interaction with the Jason slot.

On to more recent posts –

Chess is playing objectively bad today. Sure he was pretty high on my town list but I consider today's events over yesterdays. I still view dram/BC to be scummier from yesterday, but chesskid has been climbing steadily up my chart, and if this pattern continues he will have well earned that vote by the end of the day. And just because I have my vote on him now does not mean I want him lynched today, period. For that matter, I am the only other vote on him. If he was higher up, I would have thought twice.

So you are saying that you really don’t think Chess is scum but may prove it by the end of the Day? And that your vote is on him despite not wanting him lynched?

Who are your actual scum candidates at this point and why is your vote not on one of them?

And why you are doing that go ahead and make your full-claim. Because I’m willing to vote for you at this point.

Finally on the Topic of Vezok

–

His last post shows that he can’t be trusted to play in any manner that doesn’t look to accelerate the game into MYLO / LYLO. Which he can’t be alive at or he likely screws Town over to help the Mafia.

With an expected 2 scum left LYLO is 5 players and MYLO 6. We have 9 left alive right now. Once we assess Ademisk’s claim we need to seriously think about whether Vezok should be the lynch today. Because on the off chance the Vig / SK out there misses scum tonight and doesn’t shoot Vezok we would be in MYLO with 3 dead (unless 1 is scum either by NK or lynch). Something to think about carefully.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Actually, my math is just horribad atm.

I counted 12 players. You unvoted off of a wagon at 4, I thought 7 to lynch.

It’s posts like this that really undermine my confidence in how carefully you are paying attention to the game AGar.

Exactly my point. You had no reason to vote me, and yet you did. That is what I find suspicious. I don't care that you had more info later in the day, it was already irrelevant once your vote was cast.

You not providing additional information early in Day 2 doesn’t mean voting for you is suspicious. You were under pretty solid fire for good reasons Day 1. The dawning a new day doesn’t simply remove the scumminess accumulated Day 1.

Again, no. He did deserve the vote, I made a case for it when I voted, go read it.

However, based on just that alone he does not deserve to hang.

He had a clean run yesterday, but it all started failing apart after his fakehammer gambit. I thought it was worth noting that he has been in a steady decline since that point, well after he put his vote on me.

He picked himself up a bit since then, but now there is this issue with him claiming jenni is BP, which, even if he's town, is bad at best since he is putting this out in the open where the mafia can see, which they clearly didn't the night before.

Emphasis added –

1. This is very bad, and scummy reasoning. You should only EVER be voting for someone you think would be a worthly lynch. Unless you are online at MS 24/7 there is always the possibility of a lynch happening in you absence.
2. WIFOM galore. Add to the fact that you are just as guilty as chesskid of CONTINUING to bring up the issue.

That said, I'm not going to claim. Think about it, what could I possibly get from claiming? At best, regardless of what I claim, I won't be able to prove it (at least until tomorrow if its an active role). At worst, if I have a good role, that would paint a target on my chest at night if I somehow managed to live through the day.

You claim for the reasons you suggest are the worst case scenario – if you are an important role lynching you is always the worst possible option. So your refusal to claim may make my decision easier.

@Jenni re 573

– Although the harshness with which AGar stated his opinion may be unwarranted the thrust is accurate IMO – this post says a lot but boiled down there aren’t any significant stances take. It’s a large volume equivalent of fence-sitting. Everything in effect is established just right to go either way depending on the outcome of future events.

I decided to re-read FSHydra to see where their suspicions lie and to see if I could pick up on a Doc breadcrumb or hint. The two players I see getting the most heat from them were Ademisk and Jenni.

Regarding the players remaining in the game –

My gut is telling me to vote Ademisk right now. The only reason I’m not is that I really think Vezok might be the best Town lynch tonight.

EVERYONE NOT VEZOK

– I want a clear opinion in your next post whether you would support a Vezok lynch for today.

VOTE: Vezok for the moment because I really don’t want my vote sitting inactive.

On the pairings

–

Dram and BC continue to NOT light up the board with insight and scum-hunting. Dram does get some leeway because he probably was the person (besides myself) who threw dirt Jason’s way.

Ademisk and Jenni are looking more and more like good targets based on play today.

Dekes and Vezok – Vezok needs to be deadified either today or tonight. No question. My concern in letting him not swing is that I’m banking on someone who isn’t Town (but a SK) decide whether he dies tonight.

My two VC scum pools are ranked for lynchability for me as follows

Pool 1 (most lynchable to least) – jenniwren, AGar, Chesskid
Pool 2 (most lynchable to least) – Ademisk, BC, tie between dram/Dekes

My final vote today will most likely go to either Vezok, Ademisk or jenni.

MOD – As usual I will be V/LA til Monday for family weekend duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Don't hammer Ademisk until I get a chance to weigh-in!!!

Dram you are incredibly scummy right now ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Large catch-up post incoming –

First things first – Jenni you need to claim if you are a Beloved Princess ASAP. Because if you are not a Beloved Princess then Ademisk is lying scum.

After looking through the latest jenni – dekes back and forth I have to say I’m leaning in the direction of dekes more closely – specifically his ISO and Jason’s interaction regarding the Vezok issue … especially in light to dekes disproportionate reaction to my suggestion that Claire could be scum. I think Jason’s reactions to the flavor discussions will also bear significant fruit given that Jason knew the flavor was wacky.

(By the way, MoI and HH addressed some of these quotations in ISOs of Jason but didn't address the idea that he was potentially protecting a partner. MoI used them to address that Jason is posting fluff, and HH used them to address that he was posting fluff and BS'ing about not understanding the lyncher role.)

Well given my review of Jason was Day 1 before he flipped it would be kind of difficult to address the idea he was protecting fellow scum.

why would a dayname cop be arbitrary or unlikely?

It would seem, site meta anyway, to be very unlikely to be a Town role.

Dramonic at 682

– You’ve been around long enough to know very well the concept of a BP Guard. This reaction is HORRIBLE.

Chess, look at your role PM.
Does it say "Town whatever"
No, it does not.
Now hammer this fraking scum so we can end this game.

That’s funny because mine say Town in BIG FUCKING BLUE LETTERS.

Additionally, let's pretend I'm mental and you are both town, and the extra kill is a SK

Why bother to post this and then claim in 701?

Regarding 701

– I figured this awhile ago. If you are the vig then we don’t lynch Adem today and you can FUCKING CAP HIM TONIGHT. Because he will still prevent scum from killing Jenni (if she confirms her role) overnight.

after checking
No he does not fit at all

Seriously you don’t KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Flavor wise he is the TOP candidate for that role. If you don’t know the flavor don’t run to the wiki and come back spraying shit.

Is that a scumtell in your book?

Not at all. It is, however, a ‘take AGar’s reads especially of the gut nature with a large grain of salt’ tell. If you aren’t paying close attention your reads are going to be less useful, IMO.

You act like you've been a bastion of pro-town play, but you've required the town to prod at you to get you to do anything, and when you do, you have flaws as big as swiss cheese in your argument, and you ignore another player.

It’s a bad argument to say Jenni needed prodded ‘to do anything’ – she’s taken the time to actively build more in the way of cases than you AGar.

Please provide support for your assertion of flaws ‘big as swiss cheese’. Otherwise this is pure rhetoric.

Finally your attack at 680 is pretty much filled with straw to the gills. Not good at all.

Intentional misrep? I said I wasn't that wary of you (meaning not wary enough to think you might not be town. I'm somewhat wary about everyone in every game, don't see anything wrong with that) up until that post.

But I can comment on my lack of interaction with jason. I usually only concentrate on people that warrant my further investigation. You can look up all my games for that. I had basically no contact at all with FSH and they ended up town.

These two statements, made in the same post, are contradictory. If you are somewhat wary about ‘everyone in the game’, then everyone is worth further ‘investigation’.

I also think the next statement you made Day 1 contradicts your second quote –

I agree with you here, Jason has to be looked at closer. He's been flying under the radar for a while and his Iso's were too much IioA.

Here you stated that Jason needed more scrutiny. Why then did he ‘not warrant further investigation’?

Would it make more sense to SK-hunt today? Because I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the vigging of a claimed doc probably wasn't a vigging.

Um no. First off why should ‘hunt’ for a role that might not even be in the game. If we have a Vig and not a SK then it makes no sense trying to lynch them.

Add in the fact that a Serial killer would most likely make the set-up 8-2-1-1. That’s pretty awkward.

Whats interesting is how you say that me and jenni are both good lynches for the day, but then you seperate us into different pools. You were saying we are both scum (and thus linked), but then you say we aren't by sorting us differently? Again, you don't seem sure of your own analysis.

If this is directed at my VC analysis do you even have an idea why you are sorted as you were? Because if you did you’d understand my premise is that most likely ONLY 1 OTHER SCUM WAS ON THE HH WAGON. You weren’t on the wagon and Jenni was. You go into different pots. Pots of potential scum.

Also in 666 – You go on and on postulating that Chess is likely the vig based on many posts and then vote for him? The same vig who shot Scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Summary -

Unless jenni claims that Ademisk is claiming a role that makes no sense from a mechanics standpoint we lynch someone other than Ademisk or jenni.

I'm leaning dekes.

Then Dram / BC can go gun happy at night to their hearts content based on the flip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sorry Dram you 'Magical' call Day 1 isn't FUCKING ENOUGH TO MAKE ME HAMMER A FUCKING GUARD FOR A POTENTIAL BELOVED PRINCESS.

Just because you haven't fucking seen it doesn't make it an automatic fake claim.

And claiming like you did already potentially fucked up your kills so I don't want to hear it.

Think this through.

We have 9 left alive with Vezok the lyncher.

Lynch dekes. Vezok disappears regardless. That leaves us 7 alive. If dekes flips Town ventilate Ademisk to your hearts content. If dekes flips scum then AGar looks to be a good choice to shoot given the absolute stupid chainsaw he's put on jenni's suspicion of Dekes.

Either we lynch a scum or you shoot one. And killing Ademisk at Night if you are wrong - gasp, it's possible - prevents scum from boning us as Ademisk still saves jenni till Dawn.

Fuck my re-read at this point

VOTE: dekes

Vezok - come get you lynchee

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not if you shoot him as scum overnight

[MagnaofIllusion]

But you are sure he is scum so why are you suddenly worried about LYLO?

I'm going to bed. If I come back to see a hammered Ademisk in the shape of a Beloved Princess Guard I will be SO FUCKING PISSED OFF.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dram - I'm not hardheaded, I'm not going to hammer a null-read. I'll stick to my scum reads, thank you very much. And until you shed some light on this soft-claim, you're my top scumread.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ademisk

Dram's claim throws a hole in my assertion of Dram scum.
CK scum had perfect opportunity to hammer.
Jenni is still scum.
Adem likely with her.

What changed in 48 hours between these posts? Dekes comes under heavy fire and Dram claims the role that can kill. Thus he could take care of Ademisk over-night instead of at lynch.

If Ademisk flips Town this scumtastic hammer is brought to you by Dekes’ partner.

Also, MoI - I refuse to throw up WoTs everywhere to "build a case." If you can't get my case in my concise points, your problem. Get off my nuts.

No scumbag, I’m not ‘getting off your nuts’. Because your play in the last two days is pure scum.

Dram

– you better be fucking right. Otherwise you’ve pretty much likely thrown the game to the scum with your Tunneling.

Reck

– get in here and tell us if Dram is a genius or an idiot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is the part where I get to tell dramonic

I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO!

Also, great job BC

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll withhold my RAGE post until Reck confirms ending the game ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

My thoughts on the game in general and players in specific –

First off I’d like to compliment Reck on set-up and flavor of the game. You effectively subverted the flavor in setting up Jack and Claire as Mafians. Good work. Going forward I will never again assume anything from you on Source flavor versus Game flavor.

Second I’d like to give you a to Reck for making me the lone VT in the game. I deserve better damn it!

Congratulations to the Mafia. You didn’t play a perfect game but you certainly played well enough to win. Specifically you made very good NK choices during the game.

I think overall I played a pretty good game as VT.

Good Points – Picking up on the obv-lyncher status of Vezok. Correctly assessing that there was 1 scum in the HH / BC / AGar group. VC Analysis properly segregating AGar and Dekes into separate scum pools.

No So Good Points – Making the push on HH and BC before AGar, regardless of how much I disliked their play. Not looking further into the Jason interactions, which caused me to go off track for much of the second Day.

Specific player comments –

Hacker – I saw your comments in the Dead QT regarding me as suspected scum based on pushing your case. I understand the emotional impact of being attacked but knowing you were an actual Cop I can’t understand why you considered Vezok’s claim credible. You know you are Town and the likelihood of another Town aligned cop to be unlikely. Yet you were willing to follow along before flips showed that Dekes could be scum.

FSHydra – No complaints from me. Solid Town play. Probably too solid. Having a Town Nurse activated Day 2 would have been nice.

Ademisk – I don’t know what specifically made you so scummy. Perhaps it is your reactions when questioned by others. Whatever the case it would have been best just to claim Michael straight out as Guard and made sure jenni’s role was not compromised.

Jenni – Aside from your early departure into fandom and some questionable breadcrumbing early I thought you played a solid game. Your Dekes – Jason interaction analysis Day 2 was spot on and make me rethink my position. Good job. Keep in mind that you have to be more proactive as Town in not only defending your case but convincing others.

Dram – I think your Day 1 good shot on Jason blinded you the rest of the game. I honestly can’t believe you STILL chose to kill jenni N2 after Ademisk flipped Town and I had clearly pointed out Dekes and AGar. I really don’t care whether Beloved Princesses can be scum … much of your case was built on the link between jenni and Ademisk. If you had simply vigged AGar N2 as suggested I think Town would have won this thing.

Chesskid – Overall a solid game. You reaction to being questioned Day 2 was a little over the top. Impressed you didn’t hammer Ademisk Day 2 after the evidence started to filter in despite your self-confessed hammer lust.

BC – The best thing I can say about this experience is I now know what to expect from you. You are going to be relegated to my MPR category of players. As has been said – your choice to Vig Dram and then vote Chesskid made you the scum MVP.

Vezo – I’ll be charitable … retirement in full would be the best option for you.

AGar - Your Day 2 play was not nearly as good as your Day 1. Your chainsaw defense of Dekes was just too blatant. Good Nightchoices, IMO.

Dekes – I’m glad to say I’ve got good scum meta on you for my personal files. Can’t complain about your play except for your over-the-top reaction when I offhandedly remarked that you were no longer getting a flavor pass.

Jason – You really need to work on your scum meta