Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[PranaDevil]

vote: SnakePlissken

Scum 3 times out of 4 just proves that you cannot trust a Snake.

(For those wondering, this is through mafia on another site, not here, though I'd hope that was obvious).

[PranaDevil]

vote: Prana

for not saying hi to me last game.

I thought I had.

Sorry Nero.

[PranaDevil]

unvote; vote: Jack

Why are you so interested in finding who, if anyone, has a post restriction?

[PranaDevil]

unvote; vote: Jack

Why are you so interested in finding who, if anyone, has a post restriction?

What the hell man? What do you find suspicious about, I can't imagine.

If I'm correct (and someone else will tell me if I'm not) but scum rarely have post restrictions, and VT's rarely have post restrictions... which means it would go without saying that a town power role would have a post restriction. You may as well be asking "who's the cop" or something based on that..

I just don't like how you seem to be trying to find out, almost desperately, who has a post restriction. I'm even considering that you have a role that means you need to find whoever has the post restriction and get them lynched or kill them or whatever, which makes me more concerned as it would mean you're not scum either, but a third party with a weird win condition, claiming to be unable to spot it in the hopes the town would help you, despite the fact a post restriction of some kind shouldn't be important for us to find.

Basically it's just rubbing me up the wrong way something chronic, and I believe there's a deeper reasoning for it.

[PranaDevil]

@Espeonage: Hate to sound scummy, but what erges you to say that Jack is town. Isn't it a bit early to defend someone? And wouldn't a bandwagon help the town? You are however, correct in saying that not all power roles have post-restrictions and visa versa.

@Jack why do you want to know about post restrictions? It seems like it wouldn't effect you this early on.

I agree that not all power roles have restrictions, but my point is that it's highly unlikely for a vanilla to have a post restriction, as it just becomes a townie with a negative on it that affects the entire town. Generally if there's a restriction of some kind it's in the form of balancing their role more. Hence why I find it extremely disconcerting.

[PranaDevil]

Okay... what the smeg?

Esp, I have no clue where you're going with your stuff, but it's unnerving me hugely. I'm not voting you now for two reasons:

1 - to make sure that my vote doesn't add to any kind of quick lynch, but let it be known I would be happy with Esp's lynch.

2 - I still feel Jack is somewhat scummy too, and now not just because he seems to be fishing for a post restriction of some kind. But also because it feels like Jack and Esp are backing each other up rather strangely considering nobody else can see the reason from either.

I don't want to come over as a total dumbass in my first proper game.

Don't worry, you will. (And what do you mean my games weren't proper games? Smeg head!)

[PranaDevil]

Pom (Hey again btw ), I may not be around regularly at the moment (or at least as regular as I have been in the past) if I'm not going to be around for potentially 24 hours I don't wish to have a vote on someone and have that vote possibly allow even an accidental quick lynch (recent issues elsewhere that I'm not allowed to comment on have shown that to me). Hence why I'm not out and out voting him for the moment. Consider me just being safe instead of sorry.

[PranaDevil]

horrordude, to respond to your post, I can't actually state exactly why I was more cautious about a quick lynch without being mod killed, as the game it relates to is ongoing. When that game finished I'll be happy to explain my reasoning more thoroughly. But how is me saying I am happy to vote someone, but am avoiding a potential quick lynch scummy? It's a bit of a stretch as if I said that about someone and they flipped town then I would expect to be under as much suspicion as those who were on the lynch anyway.

Vollkan, something you said needs a response that I haven't seen given yet, and that's this:

You jump from Jack's play being anti-town (and, frankly, I can't see how his weird voting roulette thing is anti-town) to him being scum with Esp. What's your path of reasoning there?

You say you can't see how his moronic voting is anti-town, but to that end then, how is it pro-town?

I'd also note that he's basically voted everyone and taken to claiming every vote on him thereafter is an OMGUS vote. Why are you just farting about Jack? Are you not interested in lynching scum?

Regarding the claims, I'm not entirely sure I believe we have two pairs of joint vigs out there. That would be three kills a night, meaning in the span of two days we could be 8 town down and that's it, pretty much game over. If it turns out they ARE both pro-town, then you've basically told the scum where to begin their targetting (the second claim was even stupider because you could have flown well under the radar with that one).

Also, can one of the partners tell me their exact role name. Don't paraphrase the role name, state it exactly as it's written (and thus how it would show up with the flip).

[PranaDevil]

That's all I was asking for. I don't want anyone quoting what their role does, purely the role name itself. No more, no less.

[PranaDevil]

Pom, you should know I can't resist claiming.

Then would you mind answering the question I asked if you love claiming?

[PranaDevil]

Why do none of these claimed neighbors want to actually list their exact role name? Got something to hide?

[PranaDevil]

*rolls eyes*

So what you are saying is you can claim what the role does, all the ins and outs of it... but yet you can't actually state the actual role name? I am going somewhere with this, but I'm not stating where until I see your role name.

[PranaDevil]

As DH says, stating the role name would be pro-town at this point, considering ALL four of you now state you have the same role, and the same abilities, the role name is the one bit that now shouldn't matter to you anymore.

However the role name is rather important to what I've got on my mind, which is why I want to hear it.

[PranaDevil]

I find it funny how the name is the all important bit, while the actual ability can be easily thrown out there for the scum to see... surely as the ability is already known, then the actual name is pointless?

It's like me saying, for instance:

"I can investigate people each night and find out whether they're innocent or guilty" but then refusing to state that my role name is Cop.

It would be ridiculous to a massive extent. We already know you're joint-vigs. You all told us that, I still don't even know why you felt it was deathly important to inform us of that night 1, as based on that surely a normal vig should be claiming Day 1 so that we all know why there's more kills out there? (Yes, I accept Pom didn't feel it was a good idea to claim, so it's at most 3 of the others, depending on whether TNM agreed to the claim with CKD).

None of this is making any sense to me so far, the claims were unneeded at this stage of the game, and the desperate hiding of the role names despite outing the entire role is actually laughable. So c'mon... what's so important about the name's that they're more important than the abilities themselves?

[PranaDevil]

Hang on... role fishing? How on earth does someone fish for something you have already given up?

Anyway, my issue is that you had to release the information as to your role early so that if you died we would know why there's another kill.

However, depending on the role name, then surely we would already know that just by looking at it? The fact you are now desperately holding onto the least important part of your claim is very suspect (This goes mainly to CKD, but counts for all of our "Vigs"), almost like it would completely blow out of the water your reasons for telling us your ability, and no, now I've had to explain this any attempt to give your role name will not make you seem any better because now you could be deliberately re-wording it to avoid showing that you didn't need to claim.

[PranaDevil]

Okay... thinking things over now I've read what's been said, and here's how I stand:

I accept Jack's been making a play, it's a crappy play by all rights, but checking over it, I will agree it doesn't make him scummy by that alone (that's not to say he isn't scum, but now Vollkan has pointed out it's a gambit I can see where it is coming from, as I do like strange gambits in the early play as well). So I'll buy Jack as town for the time being.

Esp I'm less happy about, it's possible he's pulling another gambit, but it sort of feels like he may have tried tagging onto Jack's gambit to gain points from him, but I'll leave him for now.

The 4 vig-likes... there's a chance one is scum, but if the role name does state how many shots they have or whatever, then holding off announcing it is worthwhile (and I'd advise any docs randomly pick one of them to protect just to be safe), though I would hope people realize where I was coming from with wanting to find out the role name (namely if the role name states there is two of them, rather then one, the claim wasn't needed anyway).

I still don't like that there was a claim, but unlike Vezo I can see that announcing 4 scum as joint vigs would be a terrible play as it only needs two of them to get offed to prove that the rest have to be scum (and if we lynched one today then it wouldn't take long for all 4 to go down). So at best one of those 4 is scum. (I actually think them all being town would be overpowered for the town too, so I feel it's more inclined to be one as scum, or even the second group tagging onto the original claim, as I still stand by that 3 kills a night could destroy the town before the town actually get a chance to truly scum hunt).

Anyway, at the moment Vezo has been bugging me but I can't quite put my finger on it just yet. Need to look over him closer in the next day or two.

For the moment though.

unvote

Will have a quick look over later if I have chance to see if anything stands out.

[PranaDevil]

Woah there, sorry guys, life kicked me in the kahoneyz and the forum decided that e-mailing me a notification that there were fresh posts for this game was no longer a good idea. Catching up today and will have a post on what's gone down, if you have any questions for me, ask away.

[PranaDevil]

You shouldn't be going through giving reads of all players at any point. It simply tells scum how you find them compared to everyone else. If everyone starts posting what they think of all the players in the game it gives the scum an easy ride, so that would still be anti-town.

Here's what I think, you don't want to give honest to god reads of anyone or proper explanations as to anything now, and instead want to wait until the following day purely so you can get some help with it from your scum buddies as they can give you some better direction.

vote: Vezok

Sorry, but you're not the best player around, but when I have played against you, you've not been this poor with your day 1 posting (I hate meta generally, but you're not normally making ridiculous posts like the switch to Espy from SS).

As for what's happened recently, I still feel Espy is likely to be scum, SS going nutso on CKD initially read to me as scummy, but I feel less now (though I still feel off about that slot, if either of those two are scum, it's SS). Jack is still being more useless than Vezo (and that's saying something, sorry Vezo).

Right now I'd be happy with a Vezo lynch or an Espy lynch.

[PranaDevil]

Pretty much Vollkan, I've never found Vezo to be the strongest player, but I don't ever recall seeing him move his vote with such piss poor reasoning as that before.

[PranaDevil]

Pretty much Vollkan, I've never found Vezo to be the strongest player, but I don't ever recall seeing him move his vote with such piss poor reasoning as that before.

what game have you guys played together?..link please. because I looked over his games, curious which one you were in with him.

Both are ongoing still, so can't actually discuss the games I'm afraid.

[PranaDevil]

As it all depends on the mods in question, I played it safe (for my sake and the mods in question). Some mods are harsher than others when it comes to mentioning ongoing games.

[PranaDevil]

Looker is obv. town, he's pushing people, and pointing out things that need pointing out.

I'm also still more than happy with an Espy or Vezo lynch, but sweet christ this needs doing.

unvote; vote: Zwet

Effing do something, at least Jack (despite being useless) got discussion rolling early on, at least Vezo has been (somewhat) posting content, even if it has been about as useful as attempting to write a letter with a roll of bog paper, but so far what have you done? You've not boosted discussion, you've not scum hunted, you've just done nothing at all except call people scum without any reasoning. I'm not sure if you're scum, or just a VI, but you need to get contributing to the game now, not later.

[PranaDevil]

CKD, just look at his last long post.

Opens with a solid point on zwet, follows up with pointing out Espy had, indeed, pointed out Snake's claim well before he had (I didn't even put much thought into Looker pointing it out because Espy had already shown it quite clearly by then anyway, why is Looker getting grief for that and not Espy?)

Good first line in response to Vezo as well (I would say that though as it's something I agree with anyway as I said pretty much the same thing earlier), not sure what he means by the next line though.

You also asked leading questions of him (how many scum are in his mafia) that could only ever be answered with what amounts to no more than "How the hell do I know how many scum we have?" Because either he honestly doesn't know, or he would have to pretend he did anyway, it's a pointless question.

All in all, I see zero scum motivation for Looker's actions, he's been showing himself as obv. town so far and I'm not liking the pressure on him.

[PranaDevil]

Opens with a solid point on zwet, follows up with pointing out Espy had, indeed, pointed out Snake's claim well before he had (I didn't even put much thought into Looker pointing it out because Espy had already shown it quite clearly by then anyway, why is Looker getting grief for that and not Espy?)

Are you fucking serious? *facepalm* Look at Espy's post!

unvote

Came in late and didn't realise that RV had pretty much finished. I shoule Watch out more I guess.

Dude, seriously?

Someone explain how the HELL you can translate that as "You shouldn't have sofclaimed"?

Okay, now tell me the pro-town reasons for Espy's post there. And what you think the "Dude, seriously?" was referring to. That goes to both you HD, and Espy. What the hell was that comment referring to and what pro-town benefit that post gives us.

Looker is obv. town, he's pushing people, and pointing out things that need pointing out.

How the fuck is pointing out a softclaim something that needs to be done and is obvtown? WTF?

Fair enough, that wasn't a great thing, but Espy had already done so, quite blatantly (I will admit I ignored it in the hope others had, but I feel the need to back up Looker in that he wasn't the one and only person, nor the first, to point it out). But what about the fact you're ignoring that Looker has made good points towards Zwet, Vezo and Espy? Do they all get ignored for what I can make out as one bad post in a sea of scum hunting?

Looker is scum, and when he flips as such, I think I'm gonna be taking a closer look at Prana.

Awesome to know that you're going to not bother checking me unless Looker flips scum, how about using your time and resources to look me over now if you're that certain? Or are you just playing things carefully to see where issues lie? Or are you worried that when Looker flips it's going to be town (because you'd know wouldn't you?) and want to be able to back up hard and fast if need be? I'll go with option number 2.

More to the point, thanks to your defence of Espy (despite the fact he blatantly pointed out a claim) if either of you now flip town, I'll bet the house (if I had one at any road) on the other flipping scum as well.

[PranaDevil]

If CKD were to be NKd the way he claimed, wouldn't his role be shown upon death?

This is why I was asking about the specific role name earlier, if it does, in fact, state in the role name that they are joint together, then claiming was a pointless task as the name should inform people what's going on.

[PranaDevil]

1 - I don't believe Espy didn't catch the "watch" part of Snake's post. I believe Espy is definite scum and he's now backtracking because he sees a chance at getting town mislynched over something. That's my interpretation of his actions anyway.

2 - I never said YOU haven't seen stuff about Vezo/Espy/Zwet, I'm stating that you are ignoring the good and decent points that Looker has made and instead are focusing on a very poor argument against him.

3 - Am I mistaken in thinking we have more than a single scum member in this game? Am I also mistaken in thinking everyone should be a suspect in some form? Rather then focusing on one person, try focusing on more than one. With 18 players we likely have a minimum of 4 scum, even if Looker IS scum, there's 3 others out there at least, possibly 4 more (and who knows if we have any third party roles), so concentrating solely on Looker is exceptionally poor play.

4 - Your defence of Espy comes in the fact you are ignoring the fact he's not been beneficial to town so far, has been scummy in general, pointed out Snake's claim (okay, you feel differently, but as far as I'm concerned he made it quite obvious), and so far the most memorably thing he's done so far is a buddy up with Jack. Yet you are willing to ignore everything about him in favour of calling Looker scum because he... felt Espy had already pointed something out?

Hey, I'll accept it was crap play that Looker made a bigger deal of the Snake claim (I avoided it in case others hadn't noticed it, though I highly doubt at least one of the scum team wouldn't have done so).

However, if we consider the fact that Looker and myself both read Espy's post as pointing out that Snake claimed Watcher, and others feel it was for continuing the RVS (Either way it was a pointless waste of a post by Espy anyway), does that not just show that it could be taken two ways? Now you've said that it pointed out the RVS I can perhaps accept it could be seen that way (I still noticed the Watch bit first, but whatever, it was a terribly poor bread crumb as it was less hidden carefully and more dropped in like a bowling ball on your foot).

So that moves it down to you suggesting that someone feeling a post was pointing out something different to what you feel it was pointing out is scummy. This is not so in the slightest.

Finally, and also to be quite fair, most importantly, where's Looker's scum motivation for pointing out the watcher role? I agree it's crap play, but why the hell would he point it out in thread? This doesn't even begin to stray into WIFOM territory because it is simply crap scum play to point that out in the thread, he would just point it out to his scum mates either immediately or during night phase (depending on the scum set-up). So tell me where the scum motivation comes from pointing that out, please.

[PranaDevil]

I'll agree with that.

Mod, vote count please

I'd rather we lynched Esp, second favourite would be Vezo, and while I'm not totally happy with his play, I think Zwet is a distant third, so I'd vote him but somewhat under duress as I feel he needs pressuring and pushing more as I've not really seen enough from him for me to be positive he's scum.

unvote
vote: Espy

I will switch to Vezo if that's the direction we appear to be going as I'm happy with both as I say, I just prefer Espy's lynch right now.

[PranaDevil]

What is he at now?

If Looker's count is correct he'll be at 6.

[PranaDevil]

Okay, now tell me the pro-town reasons for Espy's post there. And what you think the "Dude, seriously?" was referring to. That goes to both you HD, and Espy. What the hell was that comment referring to and what pro-town benefit that post gives us.

Valid question. I have an idea what the answer is, but I want to hear it from Espy first.

Glad you brought this back up actually.

HorrorDude, you said why it referred to, but you still haven't informed us on any pro-town benefit from that post either.

I'm also still waiting for those pushing Looker in regards to pointing out the Watcher claim as to why it benefits scum more to point it out in thread rather than hide it. Where is the scum motivation? I can see a cock-up on the part of town, I absolutely cannot see scum doing that.

[PranaDevil]

Ugh..accidentally hit submit instead of preview

Fair enough, that wasn't a great thing, but Espy had already done so, quite blatantly (I will admit I ignored it in the hope others had, but I feel the need to back up Looker in that he wasn't the one and only person, nor the first, to point it out). But what about the fact you're ignoring that Looker has made good points towards Zwet, Vezo and Espy? Do they all get ignored for what I can make out as one bad post in a sea of scum hunting?

This is just wrong. Espy's wasn't that obvious, let alone to the extent that Looker could reasonably justify not pointing it out (

Looker+4

, by the way)

Please explain the scum motivation for Looker pointing out so blatantly please.

[PranaDevil]

Ugh..accidentally hit submit instead of preview

Fair enough, that wasn't a great thing, but Espy had already done so, quite blatantly (I will admit I ignored it in the hope others had, but I feel the need to back up Looker in that he wasn't the one and only person, nor the first, to point it out). But what about the fact you're ignoring that Looker has made good points towards Zwet, Vezo and Espy? Do they all get ignored for what I can make out as one bad post in a sea of scum hunting?

This is just wrong. Espy's wasn't that obvious, let alone to the extent that Looker could reasonably justify not pointing it out (

Looker+4

, by the way)

Please explain the scum motivation for Looker pointing out so blatantly please.

"Hey guise a watcher!" whilst also maintaining plausible deniability

Lack of logical conclusion as to why he would willingly point it out as scum.

What is the actual motivation for it? Why would he, (or anyone for that matter) feel pointing that out to be beneficial to their win condition if they were scum? (Outside of being an idiot I mean)

[PranaDevil]

I think it's a stretch Vollkan, that from what I can tell is the entire case on Looker, and I don't like it. If there was a bigger case on him and that was just a small part of it then I'd go for it. But as it stands it's weak, and the case on him is weak for it.

More Espy votes please though.

[PranaDevil]

Espy is scum, why are people migrating over to Nero for a null-tell?

So he returned at the same time someone called him on something, whoopy, let's make a deal of it if it becomes a regular occurance, how does that sound for a tactic?

Once is a coincidence, twice is when it starts becoming an obvious ploy. Espy has been scummy as hell, Jack's been a waste of space, as has Vezo and Zwet, and yet we're somehow switching to a Nero lynch because he happened to turn up at the same time as something was directed at him? What the effing smeg? This is making no sense at the moment.

Everyone dives on Looker for a something that has ZERO scum benefit and calls him scummy because of it, and now everyone's diving on Nero for something that could be a coincidence and doesn't even consider any possibility beyond "yup, scum" despite the fact there is much scummier behaviour elsewhere. I seriously have no clue as to what the hell is going on here. Why are people dismissing scummy behaviour as fine (check Jack's stuff for the ENTIRE day phase), and something that is a null-tell or has no scum motivation behind it is somehow viewed as the scummiest action possible?

Can you all give yourselves a slap and then start to look at scummy stuff here guys? If we keep this up we may as well just turn the lights in the hotel off and let the scum run us all through.

Then perhaps we can get back to lynching Espy, or if we really, really aren't going to lynch him, we can go for Vezo, but Nero and Looker are not getting my vote at all today, I actually want to see someone acting scummy before I lynch them thankies.

[PranaDevil]

Espy wagon is better than a Nero wagon k thx.

[PranaDevil]

Nero, don't expect an answer, Jack is trying to save Espy from being lynched by lynching whoever he could make out to be scummy.

I AGAIN ask why we're focusing on null-tells here, one single thing does not make an entire case.

[PranaDevil]

But what's he meant to reply to? "You turned up just after something was directed at you?" "Oh, so I did".

That's the entirety of the case against him, and so what's his reaction meant to be? He's reacting to a mountain being made out of a mole hill. If there was an actual case against him, then fair enough, but there isn't one, there is a distinct lack of a case but a bunch of people who all went "yeah, Nero would be a good lynch" despite there being nothing to state why.

Pom, ignore his reactions at the moment, what has been scummy about him before his return?

[PranaDevil]

Only reason I'm defending you Nero is I'm getting frustrated that we're going to let Espy walk in favour of lynching someone over absolutely sweet eff all. It's ridiculous. Just like the piss poor case on Looker was.

[PranaDevil]

Do not touch CKD. He is fine. Scum is probably trying to frame him.

Or you're scum with him and are trying to throw us off the scent.

Also, all the neighbors are town? Possible sure, but to say it's probable?

I'm not happy with CKD personally, purely because he came out day 1 and revealed his role because he didn't trust his partner, and it's his partner who gets nobbled? Could easily have been a big ball of WIFOM from CKD to throw us off the scent. But as there's going to be more than one scum out there I'll look elsewhere for now.

Can I also say "I damned well told you so" in regards to Espy? Yeah, what was with the whole "he's not scum, we're lynching the completely stupid option of Nero" on day 1? Nero only became stupid (not scummy, just stupid) after pressure turned on him, and it's hard not to go a bit nuts when you have undue pressure on you from absolutely nothing. It was a terrible option for a lynch and how the hell it went through I have no idea when the scummiest player by about ten miles was Espy.

But then, following him very closely in the scummy stakes would be... Jack. The same guy who was making sure the Espy wagon was derailed in favour of a Nero one.

vote: Jack

I'd do an ISO on him, however it would be a massive waste of time as I can't remember him making a single useful post so far.

[PranaDevil]

CoolDoG, the prod time is 48 hours, not the 24 you said, so it's not as strict as you are saying.

[PranaDevil]

CoolDoG, the prod time is 48 hours, not the 24 you said, so it's not as strict as you are saying.

Why are we worrying about prod dates anyway? To me thats some statementing they are going to lurk actively or otherwise.

I think CD was saying that as it's only 24 hours, and he's busy, he couldn't commit to the 24 hour limit (in which case, replace out surely?). However I was pointing out that he should pay closer attention as it's double what he thought it was.

[PranaDevil]

CKD, I meant later down the line, but it's a weak point, I just felt it should be out there for others to consider in case they hadn't thought of it. It's not enough to do anything just now anyway, so I'm not going to pursue it anyway.

How is CoolDoG looking super scummy? Is this the same way Nero looked "super scummy" but wasn't in the slightest? Can someone honestly sum up the case on CD for me here? As so far it just seems like he's getting pushed heavily for... not being able to be online constantly? Since when was being busy off site a scum tell?

Also, why are we suddenly not pushing on Vezo and Jack more? Jack was close to Espy, in fact he was the only one willing to stick with Espy it seemed, and Vezo... well he's done nothing at all in the slightest worth considering as useful, same for zwet (unless it turns out zwet was the one who initially proposed the Espy kill, which I think was what he was saying when he said Pom jumped to agree with it quickly, not that it makes him town, but it means he's more likely to be than if he just went along with the kill).

[PranaDevil]

Okay, thanks to the latest interaction... CD, your response there was scummy as hell, and I wont bother repeating the same points as LMP has done, however I think I will need to go have a further look at your posts. If there was an up to date vote count I might vote you at this stage. Hopefully we'll get one by the time I've done my ISO, which will come as soon as I have enough free time in one sitting to do so.

[PranaDevil]

I was moderately disappointed returning to my living quarters to find Cooldog still amongst the living.

You actively want a quick lynch of someone? Why?

[PranaDevil]

Yeah... my previous feeling of Looker being town has been royally pissed away thanks to this amazing run of anti-town behaviour.

Seriously, since when did you need a vote count to actually provide some god damn content? The vote count's not about to change what people have said up until now is it? And if you really need to see what the vote count is before you can make an assessment... well the day's not all that old, go and do a damned count yourself.

[PranaDevil]

And so wasting them helps us how?

[PranaDevil]

Hold on... you say how could a vanilla townie know there are scum "teams" instead of a scum team?

I agree, how "could" a VT know that? Surely that is admitting you're not a VT, and instead admitting you know there's two scum teams by accident? The only way I can see you knowing there is two scum teams come day 2 is if you're scum, and you rolecopped the opposing scum team (This happened in a game I modded elsewhere, as Snake will attest to, in fact both scum rolecops rolecopped the opposing team).

So, you're not a VT, and there's no possible town power role that I can imagine allowing you to know there's more than a single scum team out there, so I can only come to the conclusion that you are, as I feel, a scum rolecop (Or scum have a rolecop and you know the results. I know some mods allow day talk too, so no clue if that's the case here, though I know it's not the norm on this site).

[PranaDevil]

Pom, I'd wait for CD to respond to LMP's questions first, though I still hate Looker's play, and Jack's playing so scummy it's ridiculous. Why the hell are neither of them even attempting to post content?

And I wont accept the "V/LA" crap (which, as there's no date, means either he's deliberate disappearing and will just post when it benefits him to do so, or he's actually V/LA and is going to be leaving a massive hole in doing so, and thus he needs replacing), he's had tons of chances to post, and rather than posting anything of use he's just responded with being aggressive and then being dismissive of the fact he's wasting time.

[PranaDevil]

More post =/= more content.

36 of your posts there are no content wastes of space... and I was being GENEROUS to you with some of them by allowing one liners that responded to people to not count in my tally (when really there's no content in them either).

THIRTY SIX!

All you've "proven" there is that you have given next to nothing to this game, and are deliberately delaying on providing any information.

Fuck it.

unvote
vote: Looker

CoolDoG will wind up lynched today, but I refuse to accept Looker is doing anything but stalling deliberately. He's done nothing this day phase except ask for a vote count, and now it's been provided he goes V/LA? Bollocks. Nice and convenient I would say.

Also, it's not a 3-4 day absence is it? It's an "until you can be bothered" absence, wich is detrimental to whichever side you are on anyway, if you can't play the game, get the hell out of it and let someone else get in. if this is part of your strategy, then you're scum and need lynching.

[PranaDevil]

@I'll flip vt and pranas gonna look real bad.

Am I? How does that work? Just because you say something doesn't make it true.

Let's say you do flip VT (I doubt it, but what the hell, let's play make believe here, you already are), how does it make me look "real bad" as opposed to everyone voting you?

[PranaDevil]

zwet, why are you only commenting on the CoolDoG wagon after it's too late for anything to change? If you felt he was town why didn't you speak up when he was due to be lynched?

Lame attempt to pin suspicion on Jack. His reads aren't the best but he's done almost nothing scummy and I still think Espy vs him was Town vs Scum. He's a bit lurky, but that's Jack being Jack.

Can I ask you to show me what Jack has done that's helpful to town then?

I wouldn't even call Jack a "bit lurky" he's just been "a bit shit" really. He's done absolutely nothing of use, and when he has done something it's been act scummy and never scum hunt. I expect people to be more useful than that if they are town.

[PranaDevil]

vote: jack

[PranaDevil]

Hold it.

I've fucked up like this myself in the past.

Snake, what exactly is your role, and who exactly did you target last night, and what, exactly was the result you got back?

[PranaDevil]

horrordude, what makes you think Jack is town? He's not even attempted to be useful all damned game. He's been completely useless all the way through, and now is just creating massive distraction by claiming something that isn't true (he did no pbp on CKD).

Also, there was plenty of discussion about Snake being a watcher because it was in regards to Looker pointing it out.

As for why he would be kept alive... what about the fact there's been kills of CKD's partner and Pom's partner? It's entirely possible that what Pom said earlier is possible, scum tried framing her, and previously tried to frame CKD. Of course, if one of them is scum then it would make sense to get rid of their partner so they could use the ability themselves.

[PranaDevil]

I agree, however so far I'm wondering what the hell is going on, we have Jack making no attempt at actually playing the game, horrordude being useless, Pacman deciding that lynching scum is a second priority behind lynching someone when he dislikes their (exceptionally pro-town) playstyle, and thus far it's horrendously ridiculous. Throw in that Looker was being completely worthless and nonsensical yesterday, and it's like half the game don't even want to win.

At this stage, I want Jack or Pacman lynched, not only has Jack been acting worthless all game, but he and Esp were buddy buddy at the start of the game, and he's just being allowed to slide by being useless and scummy.

Pacman on the other hand has entered the game, and his first action is to push Vollkan for... well, nothing at all in actual fact, as his entire case is "I don't like his playstyle, policy lynch him". Absolute bullshit.

[PranaDevil]

Okay, so Jack's playstyle is scummy. So what we're suggesting is that we have no clue whether he's scum or town either way, because he's useless and worthless to the town regardless? Awesome, so either we lynch him and potentially lynch town, or we leave him alive and potentially leave scum alive. Excellent. We want him left alive at endgame because?

And that still doesn't explain Pacman, nor why horrordude has sworn Jack's town despite the knowledge that Jack plays crap whether he's town or scum.

[PranaDevil]

I think, CKD, that they're saying this is his normal playstyle when he's town... and he, himself, has said he only plays pro-town when he's scum... so if that is indeed the case, his meta becomes see through and pointless because everyone who plays with him and knows this can tell in an instant when he's scum.

Here's an idea Jack, how's about playing to your win condition and actually scum hunting, rather than playing to your meta? If you're town, try playing the game and being useful for once.

[PranaDevil]

I'm pretty much in agreement with you on how stupid it is. "Jack always plays anti-town, so lynching him is pointless" is what I'm getting from that... isn't that just asking to lose the game?

[PranaDevil]

@Prana: Why were you saying you didn't want to vote because you didn't want to "add to any kind of a quick lynch"? When was the last time you saw a quick lynch in a Large game? Why is this something to be afraid of? Also, why would a quick lynch of someone who you "would be happy with" be a bad thing? I recognize that you sort of answered this here, but I don't find your answer satisfactory, and I wasn't in the game to press you on the issue.

Pretty much what I said there, you think I'm going to give a different answer later on? I told you the straight answer there, and that IS the answer you're getting, if you don't like it, I suppose it's tough luck.

As far as why it would be a bad thing though... ANY quick lynch is a bad thing. Discussion is paramount, and I'm honestly shocked I would need to point that out on this site. Over on sites where Mafia is a side game? Yeah, I can understand that, but here?

You say that if there are two vig groups there would be 3 kills a night. How would you know there aren't two mafia groups? Are 1 mafia group Large games normal? I haven't seen one yet.

Considering the set up, which was pretty much revealed to us early on thanks to piss poor claiming, it makes less sense for two scum teams. But that becomes mod WIFOM stuff etc. I'm not used to large normals in all honesty, so I've no idea if one scum team or two is normal, but I always felt one scum team WAS the norm regardless outside of themed games. Am I wrong on that assumption?

This is the second time on D1 (that I was counting anyway) where you express a negative view of Esp, but then let it fall away. To make it worse you unvote without voting. I'm not a fan of that, especially in a post where you admit to having suspects. "Esp I'm less happy about". Furthermore, towards the end of D1 you took a pretty clear stance for an Esp lynch once the NC lynch was taking off. I'd like you to elaborate more on all of this please.

@Prana: If Esp is behaving scummy why "leave him for now".

How did I "let it fall away"? I was pushing Esp pretty much non-stop all day 1 in fact. Seriously, go check it over, I was massively pissed off when he wasn't the day 1 lynch. How is that me letting it "fall away"? What you're saying doesn't match up with the facts.

As for the unvote, you'll also note that I wanted to check through the thread as well. I feel leaving a vote on someone at a point you want to check things over to be bad play. If you're not 100% that the vote is on the right person at that point in time, then you should move it, I moved it off entirely, prior to checking through the thread. How is this scummy? Being "overly cautious" is somehow scummy now?

Looker is obv. town, he's pushing people, and pointing out things that need pointing out.

This needs more explaining too. Explain how Looker was "pushing people" because that was not the read I was getting, and explain how pointing out Snake's Watcher claim was good.

'scuse me? I am now not going to ask you something, I'm going to demand it. Go and tell me where I said pointing out Snake's watcher claim was good.

I repeat, I am demanding you do that, because that's not just a misrep, it's a blatant misrep to a massive degree designed to somehow make me seem worse for it.

As for the rest, please to be paying attention to what I is saying.

Otherwise known as read the next post I made which responded to CKD asking me the same damned thing for crying out loud - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2509612

@Vollkan: in this post you finally put up your point board. You mentioned earlier in the thread that people get + points for scummy actions and - points for townie actions. How come no one had earned any - points after a full day? You even commented "good posting" after some people's play.

Okay, thanks to the latest interaction... CD, your response there was scummy as hell, and I wont bother repeating the same points as LMP has done, however I think I will need to go have a further look at your posts. If there was an up to date vote count I might vote you at this stage. Hopefully we'll get one by the time I've done my ISO, which will come as soon as I have enough free time in one sitting to do so.

My skin is crawling after this post.

QFT

If you wish to ever actually explain that one, please do so.

This is interesting, considering that on D1 you said "scum team" when there is no way you should have known that there weren't 2 teams, but here you imply that it is scummy for him to say "scum teams" because he shouldn't know that it isn't "team". And, based on the number of kills per night, I'm actually coming to the conclusion that it is a single scum team. Which is the way you put it back on D1.

Point. Make it.

Unvote
Vote: PranaDevil

I advise everyone else do the same. He's scum.

If you ever want to give a reason for that one, feel free.

[PranaDevil]

We should just lynch a2rudeboy. pacman possibly a 2nd. Who did he replace?

Lol why is this? Cuz you don't like my case?

What case? You've not made one yet.

[PranaDevil]

Pushing for a policy lynch =/= a case.

[PranaDevil]

Vollkan's at least trying to hunt scum.

[PranaDevil]

Fuck it, if Jack's playing his normal playstyle, and nobody evidently wants to lynch him despite him playing scummy, I'll go for option number 2.

vote: evilpacman18

Still no attempt to do anything beyond go for a policy lynch on Vollkan.

[PranaDevil]

vote: evilpacman18

Still no attempt to do anything beyond go for a policy lynch on Vollkan.

Why do you think pacman is scum?

I ask because my read of him so far is just stupid newbie. Pushing policy lynches is stupid and anti-town, but town do it often enough that I really don't think it can be considered scummy. Conversely, if I put myself in the shoes of scum-pacman, I really can't fathom how he could seroiusly think that a policy lynch on me would be a good strategy; if he came in and pushed it on Jack, for instance, I think there would be a viable scum strategy (doesn't make it scummy, though, for the reasons in my second sentence), but I can't work out how, if he was scum trying to get me lynched, he could seriously imagine that a policy lynch of me would have any prospect of succeeding.

Or I could be just trying to actually put some pressure on him so he's participate.

Just saying.

[PranaDevil]

A pressure vote becomes pointless when it's forced to be announced as such.

So initially I could not state as such.

Now I've been forced to state it it's become pointless, thus thanks to Vollkan the entire point is now null and void, and you've not been much help, but then apparently that's "your playstyle" to be useless and not much help.

[PranaDevil]

Awesome, so now you're psychic too?

Could you tell me what I'm thinking about now? I'm not entirely sure what to have for dinner, evidently you know my thoughts better than me, so perhaps you could inform me of my decision?

[PranaDevil]

Why would I want people to believe I was pressure voting when I made my vote?

If people believe I was pressure voting, the "pressure" is non-existant.

If I came out and said "I'm voting pacman for pressure" well what's the point? There's nothing there, at least me stating it's through him being useless it might, y'know... entice him to start being useful. Same with Jack.

Alas, as I've had to explain myself you've pissed it away, so thanks for that Vollkan, you've been a real help, I don't know what I'd have done without you giving two useless players the ability to continue being useless.

[PranaDevil]

I notice you've chosen to ignore my response to your post about me. Any chance of you actually, y'know, posting a response? Perhaps even a case on me considering you're voting me and as opposed to others, might actually be somewhat useful for the town?

Seriously, is everyone in this game insistant on not actually playing the game and just doing their damndest to avoid playing Mafia?

[PranaDevil]

He was at 4 votes in a large game and you were going to be gone for 24 hours. How on EARTH could you be afraid of a quick lynch? It's preposterous. Your refusal to clarify it from that craptastic response is bad.

Are you suggesting scum are more likely to be more cautious than town then?

It's looking like you weren't wrong, what I'm challenging is that it was an 'assumption' at all, and not informed minority. You made this comment D1, and I assert there is no way you should have had enough information as a townie to assume 1 scum team.

So you were of the assumption it was two teams right off the bat were you?

A few questions, seeing as you chose to ignore the one I had asked there, I'll ask that again too:
Is more than 1 scum team normal in a large normal game on this site? This is the first large normal I've played in, and outside of themed games, all games have only had one scum team that I've played on here thus far.

Would scum normally be told if there are two scum teams? In my experience they are only told of their own team, though admittedly the only games I've played on here with two scum teams have been Kise's Square/Enix themed games.

You let it fall away because you brought up suspicions and then did 0 pushing, questioning, or scumhunting of it at all. You'd bring it up, and then move on to other things. You even specifically used the words "leave him for now". The only time you got "massively pissed off" about it was near deadline, and all the hate was moving towards NC. Very easy for scum to sit around at that point and go "but guys, why aren't we voting this guy" who is your scum buddy. I don't like the way you played towards Esp at all, it reads like distancing scum.

Everytime you check through a thread you unvote first? That would be ridiculous. If you don't do it everytime, then why did you do it this time? This is part of what I meant when I said I wanted you to elaborate on this. It looks suspicious.

Go check my ISO of the time frame, I unvoted and then wound up being away for a while. When I can't guarentee to be able to check through the thread instantly, and I want to check through it, then yes, I will remove my vote so if it takes a few days there's no chance of my vote being on a potential bad lynch.

Is this somehow scummy then? Because it to me seems like perfectly logical behaviour.

It's really simple. You said Looker was pointing out things that needed pointing out. At the time you said it, the thing that Looker had pointed out was the watcher claim. If that isn't what you meant by Looker's "pointing things out" then YOU are the one who needs to explain what you meant. "Pointing things out" is vague, so I had to infer what you meant. And since what Looker was pointing out directly at that point of time in the thread was the watcher claim. It's not a misrep if you don't make yourself clear in the first damn place. Nice try though.

Pardon?

All Looker had pointed out was the watcher claim? Are we telling lies here? I think we are, considering the post I linked you to was me stating that Looker had pointed stuff out in his previous long post, which, as it happens, was before I pointed out Looker was "obv. town".

Which means not only had I explained what I meant already to CKD, I had also pointed it out to you in that post.

Nice try though.

I thought it was obv. It reads like this in my head "LMP is making a good case, but CD isn't scum cause I know he isn't, but I'm going to say that I'm going to go read his posts further, so that if I need to push CD as a mislynch I can. I'll even add language about doing the ISO when I 'have enough free time' so no one holds me to it. It'll be really nice to have an updated vote count so I know if this is a really viable mislynch or not". What ever came of "have a further look at your posts"? You never commented on it after this post and before CD's mislynch. Did you never 'have enough free time' for it? You did apparently find time to distance from the CD wagon once it was about to happen here:

So what you mean is you made it all up? Gotcha.

Yet somehow, between "I'm going to have to take a further look at CD" and his lynch, we have 7 posts from you and not one mention of that further look into CoolDog. We do have this:

zwet, why are you only commenting on the CoolDoG wagon after it's too late for anything to change? If you felt he was town why didn't you speak up when he was due to be lynched?

Irony, how delicious.

I felt he was scummy, but felt Looker was more scummy by that point, yes earlier he seemed obv town, but that day he needed to actually do something rather than be as useless as Jack has been all game.

You're informed scum that knew there was only 1 scum team.

Point. I made it.

As I said above, from my knowledge (which is two whole themed games) scum aren't even told whether it's 1 team or more than 1 team. So how would scum even know if there was only 1 scum team?

Sense, make some.

Best ending ever. After an entire post I devote to showing scummy behavior, you're going to claim I didn't give a reason? That is absurd. Nice deflection.

You didn't give a reason, you posted a lot of stuff that was nothing more than fluff that you have failed to explain WHY any of it is scummy. Why would scum be more wary of a quick lynch than town?

Why would scum unvote before checking the thread but town wouldn't?

You have failed miserably to explain WHY the behavious is "scummy" you've just pointed out a ton of stuff that is essentially "why do you play like that? I don't" and sorry, but I'm not going to bow down and follow your playstyle, I'll play how I choose to play, and I tend to play a bit more cautious than most. But how that's scummy I have no effing clue.

[PranaDevil]

It's not a strawman Vollkan, to say something is scummy means you have to show why scum would do it more often than town. LMP has failed to do that at any point. What he's essentially saying is "I don't like what you said, therefore I refuse to accept it as the truth, and thus it is scummy". I mean... seriously? How is that not being noticed here? Just because LMP feels that it was a "craptastic response", not that he has once explained why, nor why it is somehow false (Has LMP gone to check on the UKFF to find out? 'course not, he's just bullshitting), it's taken as fact.

But meh, I'm officially giving up on this game, half of the players aren't even attempting to play mafia, while the majority of the rest have done a vanishing act.

[PranaDevil]

He was at 4 votes in a large game and you were going to be gone for 24 hours. How on EARTH could you be afraid of a quick lynch? It's preposterous. Your refusal to clarify it from that craptastic response is bad.

Are you suggesting scum are more likely to be more cautious than town then?

No, I'm saying your explanation is nonsense. There should have been 0 worry about a quicklynch if you were going to be gone 24 hours and he only had 4 votes on him.

Regardless of whether you believe it to be nonsense (There has been lynches quicker than that elsewhere, hence why I was being safe, ask Snake, he's on the UKFF as well), how is it scummy? If it's not scummy, why is it part of your case?

Absolutely I assumed it was two teams. I've been in 1 Large Normal and at least 5 Large themes (that I remember off the top of my head) and in all but 1 there were 2 scum teams (the one had a scum team and a super strong SK). So yes, I'd say more than 1 scum team in large games is standard for Large games.

The scum aren't told there is more than 1 team, but they can use the size of their team and the strength of their roles to easily tell if there is only 1 scum team. For instance, in star wars, which was a 22 player game, we (the Empire mafia) were only 3 players (although all with PRs), so we knew right away that there must be a second scum team out there.

I repeat, this is my FIRST Large normal (and my last most likely), you are basically saying that because my only experience of large games is two Kise run themed games that I should somehow assume that there wouldn't be a single scum team.

I'm used to NORMALS having just one scum team. Regardless of whether I'm wrong or right about that, it's NOT scummy by itself. As far as scum/town tells go, it's completely null.

What it IS as a tell, is a "New to large normals" tell if large normals are normally 2 scum teams.

No you haven't. Try again. What specifically was Looker pointing out that you thought was pro-town?

CKD, just look at his last long post.

Opens with a solid point on zwet,

follows up with pointing out Espy had, indeed, pointed out Snake's claim well before he had

(I didn't even put much thought into Looker pointing it out because Espy had already shown it quite clearly by then anyway, why is Looker getting grief for that and not Espy?)

Good first line in response to Vezo as well (I would say that though as it's something I agree with anyway as I said pretty much the same thing earlier), not sure what he means by the next line though.

You also asked leading questions of him (how many scum are in his mafia) that could only ever be answered with what amounts to no more than "How the hell do I know how many scum we have?" Because either he honestly doesn't know, or he would have to pretend he did anyway, it's a pointless question.

All in all, I see zero scum motivation for Looker's actions

, he's been showing himself as obv. town so far and I'm not liking the pressure on him.

Bolded to show my major points in that post, the first pointing out where Looker had, indeed, been pointing things out that needed pointing out (as everyone was blaming Looker for something Espy had already done by that point), and the last one showing that there was no scum motivation in that post, nor had I actively noticed any from Looker at that point.

Do keep up.

LOL. Very cute. No, I didn't make it all up. That is what your words read like. I ask anyone to go back and look at it.

No, you made it up, if that's what it "sounded like" to you, then you have issues, you can't say I said one thing, but meant another. What I type is what I type, not some made up crap that you've decided that it must insinuate.

So you appear to dodge the central issue. You said I was making a good case on CD, and that you'd look into it 'if you had time'. 7 posts later (clearly you have time because you are able to make a Looker-scum argument) you still haven't commented on CD. Did you ever do that reread of CD? If not, why did you say you would?

I didn't have the time. Guess what? Looker was a bigger priority for me to make a case on at that point in my eyes. Are you suggesting that, when I didn't have much time to make a full case, that I should go after one that YOU feel I should make, as opposed to the one that, at that point, I believe to be more useful?

Do you not see how ridiculous your argument is? It's basically: "He had time to make one case, he must have had time to make more as well". Sorry, but the world doesn't work that way. Time is not infinite, and when I have non-mafia stuff to do, I have to say that mafia will normally be done last. Not first. If being busy away from the site is somehow scummy then I'm fucked if I know how.

Asked and answered. Your assertion that scum wouldn't know there is more than 1 team is hilarious. It's pretty obvious how scum would know.

Except for the whole fact that it's not always guarenteed scum would know, at least not until day 2 or 3 (Unless scum were lynched right off the bat, then the team opposing the lynchee's team would know).

Throw in the above, namely that THIS IS MY FIRST LARGE NORMAL and your entire reasoning here is just fucking moronic. "He's never played a large normal, but he has to know what is the usual set up for them anyway otherwise it's scummy". That's what you are saying, and it's just fucking stupid.

All of this is just completely ridiculous. How can anyone call that post fluff? Simply absurd.

It's fluff because NONE OF IT MAKES A CASE

Where are you showing that any of it is "more likely to be done by scum than town"? Where are you showing where the scum motivation for anything I've done is?

It isn't there, it's non-existant, it's just a massive fuck ton of bullshit.

Here's your entire case on me:

"He hasn't played in large normals and assumed scum would be a single team, that's scummy"
"I don't like why he unvoted in case of a quick lynch, must be scum"
"He unvoted Espy to check the thread then disappeared for a while through being busy, scummy"
"He felt Looker was pro-town, that's scummy"
"He had chance to check over Looker and not CD? Must be scummy"

THAT'S IT!

There's no more to your case on me, and none of that is scummy behaviour, cautious behaviour? Yes. Lacking in the general knowledge of Large Normals? very much so. Being busy through real life stuff? Hell yeah. But... where is it scummy? Show me WHY it's scummy, nobody has bothered to do that so far.

You've made a poor case on me, and a bunch of people are diving on it as an easy mislynch, yet not a single person who is voting me has given any solid reasons why I am somehow being seen as being scummy, not one. Why are my actions more likely to be scum than town? What scum motivation have I got for any of it? Seriously, I can't see ANY of this being presented.

And then you wonder why I'm getting fucking frustrated and pissed off with this absolute fuck up of a game?

[PranaDevil]

If I can convince just one player to actually PLAY mafia, and realize that things have to be scum motivated to be scummy, then it will at least make it worthwhile.

As it stands I'm expecting everyone to stick their fingers in their ears and go "lalalalala", because hey, why do things need to be scum motivated for them to be scum? Just disagreeing with someone is enough to make someone scum according to everyone in here.

[PranaDevil]

Isn't it amazing you give absolutely NOTHING in the way of an actual response to show why you disagree?

Much easier to continue talking bollocks by avoiding answering the questions in the post, and avoid stating WHY something is scummy.

[PranaDevil]

Answering LMP's request for comment on the Him-Prana exchange:

No, I'm saying your explanation is nonsense. There should have been 0 worry about a quicklynch if you were going to be gone 24 hours and he only had 4 votes on him.

Regardless of whether you believe it to be nonsense (There has been lynches quicker than that elsewhere, hence why I was being safe, ask Snake, he's on the UKFF as well), how is it scummy? If it's not scummy, why is it part of your case?

PD's explanation doesn't make sense. I can't see how he could reasonably think that there was a risk of quicklynch. Also, answering the question he poses, there is a clear scum motivation for refusing to vote; it's the same as underpins the Vote:Townie,Fos: Scumbuddy tell - not wanting to commit to the lynch of a buddy but also leaving wiggle room to get distancing points.

PD+1

Think of it like that if you want, but after utter stupidity elsewhere (I'm pretty sure that we had 7 people quick lynch someone within the space of 12 hours even though the day was only 2 days old on the UKFF, it was something utterly ridiculous like that, so while normally I suppose I'd not be worrying about a quick lynch, after seeing that I didn't want to risk it).

@PD: How many large theme games have you played?

Two, both Square/Enix ones by Kise. So I don't feel even that is worthy of use as a general "pool" to decide any kind of average for what is deemed to be normal in a large game thanks to them both being by the same mod.

Outside of this forum it's just been a couple of relatively large games on another forum which, due to people only running one game at a time, everyone wants to put their own spin on their game to make it "unique" (meaning 9 times out of 10 it isn't), and so I don't deem any game played there to be worthy of consideration as to how a normal large game setup would be.

This doesn't make sense. Looker was obv town for pointing out something in his own defence?

Not even so much in his own defence, but that nobody had pointed it out at all by that point. It was simply the example I had used immediately after being questioned about why he was "obv. town" to me at the time because it was also the most recent. At this stage I don't feel that going back through Looker's early posts to show further why I felt he was town at that point to be beneficial to the current state of the game.

I've played with you quite a few times PD, but I can't remember this: are you normally emotional like this?

Only when I get frustrated at things, and this game is less fun and more frustrating. I don't think I've ever replaced out of a game, and I ideally don't want to start now, but I also would rather a game where people actually put forth good cases, rather than cases that are simply "I don't agree with this, therefore it's scummy" which is exactly how LMP's case is. There's no "scum are more likely to do this" reasoning, or "this is scummy because" reasoning, just complete "If you don't agree with how I feel things should be done, then you are scummy". It's just utterly ridiculous reasoning.

Like I say, why is it "scummy" to play cautiously and not want to toss your vote around when you might not be around for a while? Why is it scummy to not want to lynch someone who, at a point in the game, you believe to be town? Why is it scummy to not know how many scum teams are usually included in a large normal when you've never played in one before?

None of this has ever been explained by him, and yet he is stating he has provided a case. There is no case, whatsoever, that LMP has made. It's just a whole bunch of nothingness that others are latching onto, and those others aren't providing a single piece of reasoning why either.

Jack plays like this every game. It isn't scummy.

But then what IS scummy for him? Surely he should be playing to the town win condition? Confusing fellow town, creating issues, and generally being a nuisance aren't helping the town to win are they? If this is his "normal" way of playing, then perhaps he should take a good look at himself and start to play to his win condition?

As it stands, I still feel he's scummy. But I also don't like evilpacman. Now it's possible evilpacman has decided to bus his partner, but that would be ridiculous because he could have just gone for me and put me at L-2 instead, which means either Jack is scum and evilpacman isn't, or Jack's town and evilpacman would rather get rid of him at this stage because people are beginning to suggest he might be town and so what previously could have been an easy lynch is likely to quickly become an impossible lynch. So getting him out of the way now would prove popular for scum.

So to that end, unless it outright comes down to me or Jack, I wont be voting Jack. His play is bloody awful, but I'm beginning to wonder about the build up of votes on that wagon at this stage.

[PranaDevil]

Except the first bit IS that.

I view a normal game as scum vs town, not scum vs scum vs town. So why should I assume there could be two scum teams in a normal game? They, from what I gather a normal game is, should be the rarity. Why is it scummy to assume a normal game has a single scum team? Why are you refusing to answer that question? Why are you DELIBERATELY ignoring the fact that I have only played two large games on this site before and both were themed games and with Kise modding, meaning I only had a single large game mod to base my views off, and as they were themed I didn't count them anyway?

What you are suggesting is that because I didn't go through and research previous large normal games to learn that these games often (as I'm getting from what you're saying) have two scum teams, I am scum.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE!

As for the second point, first it was 5 posts, not 7. So please stop lying, and each of those posts was merely responding to something recently said.

Having time to quickly bung out a fast response to something that's just been said =/= time to make a case on someone.

So just because I made 5 quick and short posts, I somehow had loads of free time to make a full case on CoolDoG?

Hell, my "case" on Looker (which amounts to nothing more than "You say you posted lots, but your post history proves most of it is bollocks") was created in SIXTEEN MINUTES. While you are somehow suggesting I had all the time in the world.

The case is utter bollocks from top to bottom because there IS no case. It's a perfectly fair characterization of your case because you haven't provided one, you've provided statements of why you have different opinions on things, yes. However differing opinions is not scummy, not in the slightest.

[PranaDevil]

LMP, I note you've still dropped down to just that part of your "case" now, seemingly dropping everything else in favour of avoiding any of the questions I posed. Why?

Incidentally, regarding CoolDoG, you say I didn't have to make a case, that's as maybe, but I still felt like I needed to go through his posts fully, and as I did not have the time to do so, I didn't.

Are you now suggesting I should have skimmed his posts to come to a viewpoint on him, rather than taking the time to do a decent job?

I suppose if that's how you normally look over people, it would explain why your case on me has no solid basis and that you can't actually respond to any of it without deliberately ignoring what I'm saying.

Prana, who do you think is scum in this game and why?

At this stage I want to call LMP scummy for his attack on me, however I feel it may come across as OMGUS, because it would be solely based on how he's failed to not only present any actual case, but also the fact he hasn't actually responded to my issues with it, just taken the odd bit to respond to while avoiding the questions I asked him.

Also of the view evilpacman is scum based on his initial attack on Vollkan which swiftly became a policy lynch attempt, and his subsequent jump over to Jack putting him at L-2 and ahead of my lynch, which just feels strange, and makes me believe that Jack is no longer scum but pacman definitely is.

[PranaDevil]

Think of it like that if you want, but after utter stupidity elsewhere (I'm pretty sure that we had 7 people quick lynch someone within the space of 12 hours even though the day was only 2 days old on the UKFF, it was something utterly ridiculous like that, so while normally I suppose I'd not be worrying about a quick lynch, after seeing that I didn't want to risk it).

But how similar is UKFF to MS normally? Specifically, MS has a bit of a rep for being uniquely long and drawn-out (which I like) whereas on many other places the game runs much faster. The fact that you had a quicklynch on another forum doesn't really say too much unless it is normally similar to MS.

It isn't that similar, I was just in that mindset at the time, therefore that's how I acted.

Not even so much in his own defence, but that nobody had pointed it out at all by that point. It was simply the example I had used immediately after being questioned about why he was "obv. town" to me at the time because it was also the most recent. At this stage I don't feel that going back through Looker's early posts to show further why I felt he was town at that point to be beneficial to the current state of the game.

But it was in his defence. Whether he was town or scum, of course he was going to say that. Also, why does the fact that nobody had pointed it out make it a towntlel?

I used it as an example at the time, but regardless of whether he was town or scum, can you deny it's true to what I said it was, namely something that "needed pointing out"?

But then what IS scummy for him?

I don't know, but his normal playstyle sure as hell isn't

Maybe, but my point is how do we tell when he is or isn't scum?

You're the exact opposite of it in fact, I can never tell when you're scum because you play such a town game. As noted in that previous game we played in (can't remember specifics, but then I'm always crap with specifics like that, I'm sure you're much better at that). I felt you were blatant town right through the game, and it turned out you were scum right through.

So while it might not be a tell, it's something that should be taken into consideration.

Surely he should be playing to the town win condition? Confusing fellow town, creating issues, and generally being a nuisance aren't helping the town to win are they? If this is his "normal" way of playing, then perhaps he should take a good look at himself and start to play to his win condition?

I agree with the above entirely - but that's got nothing to do with his alignment.

Fair point, but it's one of those times when you wonder just "when" the right time to lynch someone like that is, if they act scummy, and you cannot tell when they actually are scum, perhaps lynching them early game becomes optimum for various reasons. The major two being:

1 - It stops town being uncertain in the late game, which can create a mislynch at a point where a mislynch could be disastrous (As if he's scum we might lynch non-scum because "it's his playstyle" but then we may also wind up lynching him as town because those left at that point have bad feelings about him).

2 - It means he might actually realize his "playstyle" of being useless and unhelpful means he gets lynched almost instantly in every game and force him to start being helpful.

Now, I'm not suggesting we lynch him now either, as while I'm concerned about him for reasons I have stated, the fact he is possibly just playing "as normal" combined with evilpacman's vote (after pacman's actions too) make me feel Jack's likely town with scum just jumping on the wagon to get someone who is suddenly beginning to look like a tough lynch through while he potentially has viable people who would lynch him.

After all, right now I would say I'm the easier lynch over Jack, and Jack's lynch becomes harder the more people who are pro-lynching Jack either switch their views, or are killed. So to that end, jumping over to get rid of Jack becomes optimal play now, over getting rid of me, because I had previously stated I would be up for voting Jack, throw in that I pretty much have the choice of me OR Jack, and my decision should be get rid of Jack, because even if I'm 99% sure Jack is town (I'm not, but I'm just making a point), that 1% of uncertainty for me would mean it's better I had someone I was 100% certain in of being town over someone I was 99% certain.

However, at the moment I would rather see an evilpacman lynch for the reasons I've previously stated. But if it comes down to "Prana or Jack" I would actually say stuff conventional views and prefer the lynch of myself because more people seem uncertain of me than they do of Jack, and from what I believe it would put a spanner in the works of the scum's gameplan (i.e. get the harder to lynch guy out of the way, then leave me for an easy lynch down the line).

[PranaDevil]

LMP, go back and answer the questions I've asked.

[PranaDevil]

I can't believe I have to explain how it is scummy, but here goes. If you do it in order to look town ("look how pro-town I am, I'm going to unvote so we don't have a quick lynch, aren't I awesomely pro-town guys") then it's scummy. Its a statement that looks designed to appear town. I'd even find just a plain unvote less scummy. But your unvote comes with "reasoning" that is designed to look townie (I want to prevent a mislynch) but is actually terrible logic (there is no way a mislynch would occur in the 24 hours you claimed you'd be gone). If you don't have a reasonable expectation of a quicklynch (which you shouldn't) then there is no reason to point out that you are unvoting to prevent a mislynch, except to create the image that you are pro-town.

Or I was just being honest, y'know. But don't let that stop you.

No, it's a scum tell. The scum tell is that you had information the town shouldn't have. Of course you're going to say now that there is a better explanation for why you had that knowledge, but why should we believe you about that? As it stands, you may refute my assertion, but my assertion is simply valid. The fact is, the game looks to be a 1 scum team game, and you were calling it that D1 before we'd had any flips.

The two large games you played with Kise, how many scum teams were there? Are they the only large games you played here? If that is the case, then why would you assume mini normals with 1 team would have more in common with large normals than large themes would? It seems to me like the number of players in the game has more to do with the number of scum teams likely than normal vs theme.

Stop talking out of your ass for christs sake.

theme =/= normal, at all. Especially when the themed games are based on Square/Enix worlds with a fuck ton of fancy flavour and playing about with various stuff (like including the Death countdown in one), yeah, they both had 2 scum teams, but if you think two scum teams made solely of elementals in one game (which affect the votes on each other as well) and 3 groups (2 scum and a mason group) of 3 with leaders who picked from a choice of roles that they wanted is somehow anywhere even remotely close to normal, you need your head examined.

Prior to this game my view of a NORMAL game was one scum team, and thus far I have yet to play in a NORMAL game with more than 1.

Just because you can't get that through your skull doesn't mean I'm scum, it means you're making a piss poor argument and have decided that rather than realize you were, indeed, wrong, you will just push the point and blatantly ignore the facts surrounding it.

As I've already pointed out, you've still failed to explain what I was supposed to know you meant when you said "he is pointing out things that needed pointing out". From the context of when you said that (right around when he was pointing out Snake's watcher crumb) I had to infer that you meant his pointing out the crumb.

So you admit you weren't following the thread properly? Considering that post was made right after CKD questioned it. The fact you are NOW claiming you had no idea what I meant by it, just proves you weren't actually paying attention and are just making up a bullshit argument and are trying to pretend a post I made didn't exist.

You "inferred" that I meant Snake's watcher crumb so far after I had made that explanation to CKD that you either skimmed the thread (and therefore are taking things out of context, which makes your "case" null and void) or you deliberately avoided acknowledging the post (which again makes your case null and void).

LOL! So now I'm not allowed to interpret other people's posts? Exactly how are we supposed to find scum then? Of course I have to read what people are saying, look at the motivations of those statements, and try and glean alignment from it. The motivation of that post was "let me look town by saying I agree with the CD wagon, but distance from it with a 'I'll look into it more later' statement". If you'd actually delivered on looking into CD, that wouldn't be the case, but given that statement followed up by you NOT looking into it, the only motivation I can see for you even making that post was the blend with the anti-CD vibe that was going on in the town at the time.

Seriously, your actions in regard to the CD wagon should be enough to swing you all by themselves. I can't think of a better example of scum distancing from an impending mislynch.

Even Vollkan, who is riding my ass over shit points at the moment too (you two seem awfully buddy/buddy in fact) has pointed out that you are wrong on this one as it's happened to him.

Not having much time =/= scummy. How can you claim otherwise?

Why wouldn't you assume 2 in a game this size? You have no other defense for this, so of course your defense is going to be "I didn't know". That isn't good enough.

You would rather I lied and made up something then to back up my views that a Large Normal would be, in fact, normal as opposed to what I believe to be abnormal? I hope to fuck you don't play Newbie games, "You didn't know this so you must be scum, lynch him!"

Saying that doesn't make it so.

Just like you saying I'm lying about not knowing something doesn't make it a lie. Correct?

Let me get this straight, if I point out multiple instance of scummy behavior, it's not a case unless I also say "which is more likely scum because (insert X)"?

Considering thus far you HAVE FAILED TO PRODUCE A CASE, then yes, you need to explain why something that is said purely because of how I percieve normals to be is somehow meant to be scummy. If I had played half a dozen Large Normals and found some had 2 scum teams, then it would be understandable to say "He should know there might be two scum teams" but as this is my first (and only) large normal, then I would have to base it on what I view a normal game to be, and that's a town trying to get rid of a scum team. Not a town getting jumped by two scum teams and nobody having a clue. Leave that shit for themed games.

Every single one of your claims about what my case is is a misrep. Every single one. Nice try though.

Yet every single one of your pieces of "evidence" against me is also a misrep. And if I wind up lynched that much would be proven, then where does it leave you? A town player down and all you've done this day phase is tunnel. You're playing like shit, have created a piss poor case in which none of it is scummy unless you either twist things, or deliberately ignore other facts surrounding it. That's not a misrep, that is FACT.

Now onto Vollkan

I might be missing something here. Are any of the following incorrect?
1) You said Looker was obvtown
2) Your reason for that was that he was "pointing out things that needed pointing out"
3) I have now pointed out that it was in defence
4) You say, regardless of whether he was town or scum, it "needed pointing out"

4) seems to directly contradict the combination of 1)+2).

PD+2

contingent on my facts being correct.

I said it was an EXAMPLE not "the only one". "things" not "thing", that s is rather important in number 2.

What part of "I used Looker''s last long post just to show an example to CKD" is missed here? I never said that was the one and only, I also never said that post was the extent of what made me believe him town, but it showed a damned good reason why I felt he was at that point in time.

I'm beginning to believe that both you and LMP are just hell bent on getting rid of me, and are therefore deliberately trying to move as far away from anything that actually disproves what either of you are saying by ignoring the bits that prove the arguments wrong.

To an extent. If hypothetically Jack and X were tied for my number one suspect position, I'd vote Jack in a heartbeat, given the great big question mark over him.

But how would you ever know when he's a suspect if you can't tell his alignment from his posting anyway? This directly goes against the fact that you are suggesting we shouldn't lynch based on Jack's playstyle, however it's only that which is scummy because I've not seen any actual step to help the town, even his latest list of suspects has no reasoning for them.

1 - It stops town being uncertain in the late game, which can create a mislynch at a point where a mislynch could be disastrous (As if he's scum we might lynch non-scum because "it's his playstyle" but then we may also wind up lynching him as town because those left at that point have bad feelings about him).

This sort of argument often comes up in relation to VIs. My problem with it is that it assumes that the risk involved in a lynch with a greater-than-average likelihood of NOT hitting scum (because it isn't alignment-based) is justified by reference to risks later on in the game.

But how is if a "greater-than-average" likelihood? Someone's just as likely to be town as scum in any game. Just ask "Always scum in the UKFF" Snake, I don't think he's played a game over there where he's been anything but scum, and I would laugh my ass off if he turned up scum here too.

So to that end, my point is whether it's day 1, or LyLo, you would still be uneasy about lynching someone who has seemed scummy all game purely because it's their playstyle. VI's aren't quite so bad because you can often spot them a mile off, but someone who you can never get a read on, whether they're scum or town, is someone who is more dangerous to town alive in LyLo than dead in the early game.

2 - It means he might actually realize his "playstyle" of being useless and unhelpful means he gets lynched almost instantly in every game and force him to start being helpful.

I have a problem with this sort of policy argument. The cardinal rule of Mafia is "Play to meet your win condition". If you are pushing lynches for policy reasons, you are violating that rule.

Except you are killing two birds with one stone, it's not something that happens seperately from the above, it happens alongside it, thus you are playing towards your win condition AND trying to force them to actually play the game in the future.

However, at the moment I would rather see an evilpacman lynch for the reasons I've previously stated. But if it comes down to "Prana or Jack" I would actually say stuff conventional views and prefer the lynch of myself because more people seem uncertain of me than they do of Jack, and from what I believe it would put a spanner in the works of the scum's gameplan (i.e. get the harder to lynch guy out of the way, then leave me for an easy lynch down the line).

Doesn't the above assume Jack is town?

It does, and right now, rightly so. Considering evilpacman's actions, jumping on you as he did, then switching to Jack, who is the harder one to lynch (and to answer an earlier question I almost forgot, Jack wasn't the leader in votes prior to evilpacman's vote hop, we were tied, and the way LMP has been acting, and how Vollkan always appears pro-town, it does make me the easier lynch, even more so when more and more people are stating Jack is definitely town because "that's his playstyle").

Just consider this:

If scum can push to get rid of Jack now, at a point where people are beginning to say "he's town, that's just his playstyle" or words to that affect, what's going to happen if I'm lynched and they are down one person who could (so they thought at the time) help them lynch Jack?

Prior to evilpacman's vote I had been pushing for Jack's lynch, but the way it's been done just smells strongly of scum, and makes me believe he wanted me to switch my vote over to him. Someone even mentioned as much at the time about how it would put Jack at L-1 if I threw my vote over to him. Then it would just need someone to bung one more vote over to get rid of him, and people have been suspect of Jack all game (except those pointing out it's his playstyle).

So yeah, Scum wanted to lynch Jack now, with me alive, then they could just swing round and try getting shot of me knowing LMP and Vollkan (if one or both aren't already scum) would back them up. Two mislynches in as many days, and town's close to being fucked.

So based on that, I don't believe Jack to be scum. I do believe evilpacman to be blatant scum, and in need of lynching.

[PranaDevil]

I said it was an EXAMPLE not "the only one". "things" not "thing", that s is rather important in number 2.

What part of "I used Looker''s last long post just to show an example to CKD" is missed here? I never said that was the one and only, I also never said that post was the extent of what made me believe him town, but it showed a damned good reason why I felt he was at that point in time.

In which post/s have you explicitly pointed to other examples?

If you haven't, why not? It seems bizarre that, if you had other examples, you wouldn't raise them, especially given how much this example has come under attack.

I haven't. Why haven't I? Because ISO'ing a dead player at this stage is ridiculous when I don't honestly have enough time to fully ISO a living player. If I have the time to do it... guess what? I still wont, I'll instead ISO someone living who I believe to be an issue.

Let me put in bold for you:

I can't read Jack

That was my point. You said if Jack was tied for your number 1 suspect you would lynch him over the other player. But HOW would he ever become your number 1 suspect when the only information you get out of him is just terrible playstyle? How would he EVER, at any point, become joint "number 1 suspect" if you write him off regardless?

It's actually starting to concern me that you would suggest that the only thing you can actually take from him (his playstyle) is something you wouldn't lynch him for, but also suggest that you would lynch him if he was joint number 1 suspect for you, of which you also admit he would never be.

It's like watching the first episode of Yes Prime Minister all over again, exchanging the Nuclear Bombs for Jack's Playstyle.

It's a greater than average likelihood of a mislynch for the simple reason that, in lynching Jack, we would be lynching explicitly because of playstyle and not because of alignment.

Could it not be argued that if you mislynch based purely on gut that you would, essentially, be doing the same?

See above. It ends up simply being about future games, which should not be a relevant consideration in this game.

False, it is a small part of the issue that benefits their playstyle, however that is not the be all end all of it, and the fact you are choosing to ignore the fact that Jack late game generally will mean issues at hand and confusion for all at the moment in favour of calling my argument "simply being about future games" is rather... well, lacking.

Especially when I note you ignored the entire section where I stated I didn't want to lynch Jack, and I was actually talking more general circumstances as I currently believe Jack to be town (through others actions I'll admit, not his own which are still awful) and evilpacman to be definite scum.

[PranaDevil]

I still want to get rid of evilpacman, but just skimming silverbullet's ISO shows he hasn't even attempted to do anything so far.

unvote;
vote: silverbullet999

However, I'd also like to hear from him in regards to WHY he has deliberately done nothing thus far.

[PranaDevil]

evilpacman, make some sense for once.

LMP is scum with me, or not scum at all? Huh?

If I flip scum, then your scumread on jack is moot? How does that work?

As for the claims, go pay closer attention because that's a spectacular fail. It was mentioned AFTER the claims had been made, and I wanted a full name claim to see whether or not CKD was just talking bollocks about whether he needed to announce his claim early on or not.

No surprise you've jumped from Jack over to me now though, so far:

Go after Vollkan who always looks town, and thus is likely a danger to you, so you try swinging people to vote him, that goes nowhere and you see Jack as an easy lynch, but one that might not be so easy later on and try and get rid of him, now that's failed you've just jumped to the only other main wagon that could pose problems to the scum and might go somewhere.

So far we have evilpacman and silverbullet as known scum with LMP being in there tentatively (I still want to call him scummy thanks to his tunnel vision and poor arguments, but I feel if he were scum he would be trying harder to create a better case. So while I'm not all that sure, it's still iffy). Anyone else want to step forward?,

[PranaDevil]

Doesn't matter whether you replaced in or not. If you're going to make a case up on me I expect your facts to be correct, therefore I also expect you to pay attention to what you are attacking me for. The fact you stated I never explained what I meant about Looker, despite my follow up post, proves that you weren't paying enough attention to what I was saying, which makes two that you have now admitted to.

How can you suggest you have a solid case on someone when you can't even be bothered to check what you are saying to begin with?

Sorry, but from this point on I refuse to acknowledge your arguments against me, for a few reasons:

1 - You have chosen to ignore anything you haven't got a nice easy comeback for, therefore ignoring most of my questions to you.

2 - Your "case" is piss poor and now proven as much because you've admitted to twice now not really understanding what you were talking about (My unvote of Espy when I was away for ages, and now this on Looker).

3 - The back and forth isn't helping us catch scum, and if anything it's creating a distraction.

From now until you stop tunnelling on me, you're a non-entity to me this game.

[PranaDevil]

Pretty sure we can all agree Nero is town, considering he's no longer here.

Still loving all these people saying I'm scum but never providing a case.

Also I don't believe silverbullet. You've claimed early, and have also failed to give any information about anything. You're basically saying your entire contribution this game is to breadcrumb a role then announce it.

[PranaDevil]

Vollkan, I'm uncomfortable with you saying the chart speaks for itself, and that Snake has been scummier than Silver... when you only gave Snake those five points in that post.

Surely you could have done the same to absolutely anyone?

Also, you admitted in that very post that your chart is now meaningless because everything has been largely behavioural. So what use is it currently if that's the case anyway? More to the point, should you not be ignoring anything that's behavioural if it doesn't mean anything?

[PranaDevil]

Okay, that makes me feel better, I misunderstood the chart as I read it like Snake's 55 was only through the +5 you gave him up there, which understandably concerned me.

I'm still not actually a fan of your chart anyway, it feels like it's something that could be manipulated as Voll-scum to make yourself appear to be scum hunting as you go, when you're not.

But at the moment I do believe Snake is possibly scum with his actions, plus I don't remember seeing him actually "do" anything this game. It feels like he's keeping his head low and avoiding actually commenting on anything to slide under the radar.

unvote;
Vote: Snake

I still want to see Evilpacman lynched though.

[PranaDevil]

Should I mysteriously die tonight, remember that Pranadevil is scum, everybody.

You mean as opposed to Pom who you just said was the scummiest player alive? Make your damned mind up.

[PranaDevil]

So Vollkan and LMP buddying up again, no shock there. Also no shock that there's nothing to back up their votes once more. But then LMP is dead to me in this game, until he stops his blatant tunnelling he's just being worthless to town.

No clue what people mean about the a2rudeboy trying to get my to vote Jack stuff. I don't even remember seeing that, I do know I have no intention of voting Jack at this stage because of the way pacman went after him which to me as good as confirms pacman as scum.

LMP is either scum or useless town at this stage as well.

CKD I'm still unsure of as well. I'm unsettled as to how he came out early to announce his role and gave reasons for it, only for it to be his partner who got taken out and him to still be alive at this stage.

But I still want evilpacman gone.

vote: evilpacman

[PranaDevil]

prana do you have any comment on what lewarcher just said?

I don't know really. It seems a long winded way to say "I shot a2rudeboy even though Prana was my biggest suspect", in which case I wonder why he didn't target me.

In fact, it sounds like a very nice way of saying "I kept someone I thought would be an easy lynch alive and took out someone who may not have been, only to find they lived".

He posts his reasoning further down, but I don't buy it. It's plausible it's scum distancing from each other. Plus, considering a2 didn't die it would be a lovely way to excuse why lew didn't "act" last night. Because he was taking out the tracker.

PD, you claim vollkan and LMP are buddying, but you did not address their posts.

Simple reason really. LMP I've already stated isn't worth me continuing discussion with, the arguments are becoming circular and are going to distract from any scum hunting the town could do. I don't want to get into us both going back and forth with huge walls that nobody wants to trawl through later on because it never says anything fresh. It's a nice trick to do as scum, hell I've used it myself, as it keeps people away from the main issues and moves them onto other stuff. But I'd rather we lynched actual scum today which requires scum hunting, and not one player tunnelling on me, his buddy tagging along for the ride (although less so as he's still attacking others), and me responding almost solely to their posts.

The accusations have been done and dusted with the previous day, there's nothing fresh that either can say, and in my mind I've explained any doubts that have come up. Both of them (though Vollkan to a lesser extent, as he's at least admitted he's done something in the past as town that LMP is claiming makes me "obv scum", I notice LMP never once paid attention to that either) are just refusing to accept that there can be any explanation other than the ones they've made up.

also given that the town tracker tracked pacman and got (nil) why do you think this is the BEST lynch today. I understand he could be scum that didnt make a kill that night, but neither did snake who watched/tracked me? But given that result, why is he the BEST lynch over your other "scum suspects"?

I've explained this yesterday, and my reasons haven't changed.

LMP I'm worrying I may be feeling is scum solely because of his interaction with me, and the severe lack of anything outside of his tunnel. As for yourself, it all lies on WIFOM stuff, so until I've done a read through I wont be putting you at the top of my suspect list, it's just of those alive that's who I've noticed things from more.

I do, however, plan during this day phase, to go through and do ISO's of both lew/pom and a2rudeboy, after my thoughts above that could well be an interesting pairing that needs looking at more closely.

[PranaDevil]

LMP I've already stated isn't worth me continuing discussion with, the arguments are becoming circular and are going to distract from any scum hunting the town could do.

Rather than rolling off rhetoric, could you give an example of LMP's attacks on you becoming circular?

PD+1

contingent on provision of an example

Are you honestly going to tell me that the argument between me and LMP yesterday didn't basically become "yes" "no" "yes" "no"? He claimed one thing, I told the truth, he said I was lying and that he was right, so I stated the truth again, he claimed it wasn't... the entire thing is just the same crap over and over again. Fucksake.

LMP I'm worrying I may be feeling is scum solely because of his interaction with me, and the severe lack of anything outside of his tunnel.

More rhetoric.

"Tunnelling" is only truly scummy where it results in the application of inconsistent standards and can be scummy, depending on player and context, where it results in confirmation bias (ie. newb-town has a tendency to latch on to people they suspect).

The fact that LMP has been consistently attacking you does not make him a "tunneler"

What makes him a "tunneler" is that he's focusing on me and NOBODY ELSE. It's the very definition of tunnelling. I'll also note that so far we've lynched two scum. That means there's going to be more than just a single scum left. Nobody is going to tell me that a game which has obviously been rather town role heavy in having not just pro-town roles, but (seemingly) pro-town roles that are all mason groups. (Without checking I think the only single player power role came from scum's side in Snake) Which means unless one of the mason pairings has scum in it, town have been pretty well stocked on power.

So, to that end, if there's more than one scum member left, why is LMP refusing to even look at anyone else? I don't believe it's pro-town to take a single target and go after them without even looking at other issues that came up. However at the moment people are trying to claim that me being on Snake's lynch is a negative against me, despite the fact it's obvious I wasn't being opportunistic as I wanted to hear from Vollkan about what he said before I voted. If you want to look at that wagon, fine, but I'd be more inclined to look at those who just hopped on without questioning anything, not the ones who didn't want to risk a poor lynch and so questioned things first.

Hell, at this stage I can guarentee LMP would have used it against me anyway. "See, he's on Snake's lynch, he's obviously scum!" would become "He didn't even vote for Snake and he flipped scum, he didn't want to lynch his buddy!" At this stage LMP's quite blatantly just saying everything I am doing is scummy and has failed miserably to state why. It's easy to SAY something is scummy, but if he can't tell me why it's scummy in his eyes how the fuck can anyone defend against it anyway? "It's scummy" "Why?" "It just is" fucking tell me then you tit. You're basically saying that me acting how I normally do "is scummy", which is fucking moronic.

And yes I'm getting fed up of the argument on me that I can see no logical basis for at any point of it.

[PranaDevil]

The way I learned it, the number of scum is usually around the square root of all the players. So since 18 is pretty close to 16, I just assumed there would be 4 scum.

Not had much free time this weekend, so haven't had chance to properly go through those ISO's I wanted to, however something I did see in passing was this, when it really doesn't add up to what you've said above, namely that you claim me and Vollkan are scum, but Jack's alignment comes in depending on my flip. Which to me tells me that you've gone from "possibly five scum" to "must be 4".

Incidentally. LMP needs to be getting all up in your case for saying you know how many people are in the scum team just like it was apparently scummy for me to "know" there was only 1 scum team when my knowledge of normal games is there should be only one scum team. After all, if he doesn't then it's hypocritical.

(Incidentally, it's not the square root of the players, it should be an equal amount of mislynches as actual lynches to win, on average I've found this works out to about 25% of the players before taking into account other roles).

[PranaDevil]

Normally I would be arguing more, but considering I'm looking for somewhere else to live, and due to looking for work at the same time, have appointments in town to get to, and then at home have jobs to be applying for and housing to keep looking for, I'm afraid making huge efforts to protest my innocence in the game become less of a priority for me.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Regards the amount of scum we have left, I really don't know. It depends on who the scum are for one thing, if the mason pairs are town then scum need bulking up more, if they're not and the mason pairs have scum in, then 4 might well be balanced. However if the scum aren't in the mason pairs at all, then a higher number is more likely for balance reasons.

Personally, I haven't a clue. It could be 2 scum, it could be 3 scum. I do know I don't want to just assume that there's only 2, we have a mislynch left, and then screw it up only to find we're fucked and that's it, game over, scum win. So to that end, I'd rather assume we have 3 scum left. At least that means we are (or should be) on our toes more than we might be if we thought there was a mislynch we could deal with.

It's something that unnerves me about LMP's tunnelling actually. If he's town, he would want to find out who the other scum is as well, and he's not, he's focused on getting me lynched. Which makes me worry that if he is scum then it means this mislynch could give them the victory. I can't see why else he would ignore everything else going on and focus on one person so heavily. Surely if he's town he should be considering all possibilities? I also note he still hasn't jumped on evilpacman for his earlier "assumption" on the scum, the same way he jumped on my assumption that there was just one scum team. Which also means he's inconsistant with his views.

[PranaDevil]

I also note he still hasn't jumped on evilpacman for his earlier "assumption" on the scum, the same way he jumped on my assumption that there was just one scum team. Which also means he's inconsistant with his views.

There is a massive difference between speculating on the number of scum left on D4 and making posts that plainly state the number of scum teams D1. We have a lot more information now as town to make a somewhat informed decision on how many scum we think are left. On D1

you town

had 0 ways of knowing whether there was 1 scum team or 2.

The rest of what you said is still awful. You still need lynching.

Ta muchly.

unvote;
Vote: LynchMePls

[PranaDevil]

lew earnt that victory really, I still stand by what I said in the dead thread in that I feel the SK may have warped the game, but I'm also ready to admit that it likely only feels that way because it only was known last minute that he was a SK.

Overall an entertaining game, and I liked the confusion over whether the neighbor pairs were both town or not, the distrust was brilliant. Even more so as the LMP believed Vollkan was town for so long.

[PranaDevil]

I think I was pretty much ready to swing before you in all honesty Snake. I can't remember what it was, but I had no choice to vote you myself (it just turned out I was late to the party, which looked bad on me). And I'm not going to look back over it, but if LMP is right and Vollkan didn't really comment on me until he pushed it more, then fair play, Vollkan had no choice but to go with it if he was to continue having LMP even partially believe he was town.

I do think we perhaps should have taken out LMP earlier, even if it would have lead to me being lynched not too long afterwards, it would have been the most pro-town player out of the way.

[PranaDevil]

like I said in the game, vollkan is so hard to read...I was trying to find something, which is why i asked so many questions about want went on in the QT thread. if a gun was placed to head and I had to pick between LMP and vollkan, I would have picked LMP as scum....curious, was mafia worried about an SK at all?

We had no clue about a SK. We found out about it when we found out Vollkan was dead and the game was continuing.

Incidentally, as long as the other scums have no issue, I'm fine for showing the scum QT.

Any chance of seeing the neighbor ones?

[PranaDevil]

So I can... I need to pay closer attention next time.

I did love the end of the Vollkan/LMP one ^_^