Mini 1036 - DEFCON Mafia - Over

[Zhero]

Convenient how you don't acknowledge the posts on the previous page by Faraday on the previous page Zhero at all and as a result you take Elscouta a bit out of context.

Not sure what you mean, no misrep was intended.

Signs of a nuke-happy town making me nervous for DEFCON 1 :P

[Faraday]

You want explanation? You got it.

Faraday obviously didn't read the first post extensively. If he did, he'd know that, regardless of alignment, we're all given the same info because all the role pm's are in the first post as well as the faction numbers a.k.a. it's an open setup.

I dunno what you mean here, what did I miss? I think you're misunderstanding me, I'm aware it's an 8:3:1 set-up, I'm saying I think if Andrius was scum he'd have been told by his scumbuddies that he could pick from more than one area for his list.

You have been playing the idiot in all your recent posts. Either you are indead a townie wanting to be counterproductive, or a scum trying to give himself a style. I lean towards the second.

I'm 'playing the idiot'? Where the fuck have I done that? And derp @ the second part. I don't even know what a scum trying to give himself a style means in any context whatsoever.

And for the record, I maintain that "X is town" is more often heard in scum mouths than in town mouths (especially without explanation).

you'd be dead wrong then.

[Faraday]

Convenient how you don't acknowledge the posts on the previous page by Faraday on the previous page Zhero at all and as a result you take Elscouta a bit out of context.

Not sure what you mean, no misrep was intended.

there was no mis rep, he's concerned his scumbuddy's going down in flames.

[Hinduragi]

Oh, in that case, nevermind.

Elscouta, I don't see how "X is town" is a scumtell. I see town/scum do it. If you can explain why scum do it more than town, I'll be happy to prove you wrong. Now, the person's reasons for saying "X is town" can be a scumtell. Saying it, though, is not.

[Elscouta]

There is mainly three reasons :
- First, town has no reason to say they believe someone to be town when this person is not attacked. It only helps scum to help decide on their nightkills.
- Second, scum has a lot of reasons to say someone is town. It "looks" like scumhunting, usually makes the scum take less pressure than an accusation, and has some buddying effect.
- Last, this is not well known has a scumtell, so scum usually don't try to avoid this.

[Faraday]

All 3 of your points are 100% wrong. No need to thank me.

[Elscouta]

You wish to continue playing the idiot and try to avoid posting any reasoning whatsoever in your post? I guess you feel this is giving you a better chance to get away than trying to argue...

[Hinduragi]

-You voted Andrius for a gut read. That's an attack. Town also wants to proclaim their reads so other town knows where they stand and so they will (hopefully) see it the same way.
-I've been on this site for less than two months and I already know saying town will get you called for buddying. It happened in my first game.
-Town don't try to avoid it either because it's not well known as a scumtell.

[Elscouta]

-You voted Andrius for a gut read. That's an attack. Town also wants to proclaim their reads so other town knows where they stand and so they will (hopefully) see it the same way.

They want to proclam their

scum

reads. Not their town/neutral reads.

-I've been on this site for less than two months and I already know saying town will get you called for buddying. It happened in my first game.

Your point is?

-Town don't try to avoid it either because it's not well known as a scumtell.

It's less natural for town. The fact that they don't try to avoid it doesn't remove the fact that town do it less than scum.

--

Anyway, I want to say now that i'm voting Faraday for a lot more than just his "blah is town". His defense based on "everything you say is crap, go away" is not suiting me at all. The indirect defense of Faraday by Hinduragi is noted.

[Faraday]

You wish to continue playing the idiot and try to avoid posting any reasoning whatsoever in your post? I guess you feel this is giving you a better chance to get away than trying to argue...

What exactly am I supposed to ARGUE WITH?

Let's get to your points:

- First, town has no reason to say they believe someone to be town when this person is not attacked(1). It only helps scum to help decide on their nightkills.(2)

(1) WRONG, (2) WRONG. Having a bunch of obv town players helps narrow down scum. Sharing reads in thread is a good idea as it allows voting blocs and narrowing of the suspect pool and other mumbo jumbo. Scum don't need help deciding nightkill. If scum want to take my advice on their nightkill they're probably retarded anyway, so ya know whatever.

never mind this is boring I'm going to watch tv

The indirect defense of Faraday by Hinduragi is noted.

Calling you on your crap logic = defending me. lolk.

[Hinduragi]

Your misrep is noted. Indirect Defense? I did the same thing you initially voted Faraday for and I'm defending Faraday? I only said he was town because I thought he was based on the point I listed and I was positive your case was on a townie. Then he clarified that I was wrong about my assumption. If I was defending Faraday, I'd be saying how he's not an idiot and such.

You still missed the Andrius part.

Scum would try to avoid it because they get called on buddying for it is what I mean.

It's not fact. It's less natural? How? You just said there were facts proving you right but I don't see facts.

[Hinduragi]

Ebwop: On the first point about town proclaiming reads - Town proclaims neutral/town reads plenty. I can cite games if you want. It's not uncommon.

[Zhero]

(1) WRONG, (2) WRONG. Having a bunch of obv town players helps narrow down scum. Sharing reads in thread is a good idea as it allows voting blocs and narrowing of the suspect pool and other mumbo jumbo. Scum don't need help deciding nightkill. If scum want to take my advice on their nightkill they're probably retarded anyway, so ya know whatever.

To add to this, sharing town reads leaves a paper trail, making it harder to go back on that later to push a mislynch. Scum doesn't have much of a motivation to cut their choices like that.

[Doombunny9]

Scum would be aware they could pick from different groupings.

Tell me when this makes sense. Being scum doesn't give you some cosmic understanding of all game mechanics.

All 3 of your points are 100% wrong. No need to thank me.

Kewl no reasoning. I must say you make a very convincing argument.

Also @Faraday- You missed my question. What is your reasoning behind the Enigma vote/elscou FoS?

Anyway throwing out town reads is scummy. Think about this:

scum saying scum is town- Allows them to buddy up
scum saying town is town- If the townie gets lynched it makes the scum look more like town whereas if the scum gets lynched then the townie looks more scummy
town saying scum/town is town- Tells the scum who to kill

I do see plenty of townies say people are town though (Especially in endgame where it becomes more obvious) so its not that much of a scumtell.

Faraday makes me nervous overall though. I could see plenty of stuff he's saying coming from a townie PoV but at the same time he manages to do plenty of scummy stuff (Not providing reasoning, just throwing out arguments and pretending they're crap etc.) Overall I get an uneasy and scummy read from him and I'm definitely going to keep a closer eye on him.

[Doombunny9]

Felt like I didn't make this clear enough: I did see Faraday's explanation about Elscou's points but it's definitely scummy that he needed to be called out on it first.

[AlmasterGM]

[Day 1, Vote Count 2 - Civilization IV]

"You can't say that civilization don't advance, however, for in every war they kill you in a new way." --Will Rogers

[Votes]

Andrius

(0)

AurorusVox

(0)

Doombunny9

(1) - Enigma

Elscouta

(1) - Andrius

Enigma

(3) - Zhero, Doombunny9, Faraday

Faraday

(2) - AurorusVox, Elscouta

Hinduragi

(0)

Papa Zito

(1) - SpyreX

Percy

(1) - Hinduragi

SocioPath

(0)

SpyreX

(1) - SocioPath

Zhero

(0)

Note Voting

(2) - Papa Zito, Percy

[Activity]

The deadline is 16 September 2010 at 5pm EST.

Papa Zito

has received his first prod.

AurorusVox

is no access through 6 September 2010, and V/LA until 17 September 2010.

[Percy]

Hello everyone, I'm back and reading NAO

[Percy]

Firstly, no sub for me.

@Faraday

: I was talking to Doombunny and Hinduragi, but Doombunny (and by extension Hinduragi, maybe) say that the point was more about

only

doing pointless discussion. Urgh, whatever, I still think it's crap and the distinction is useless.

There's no codes and buddies here but I agree with your logic.

*skin crawls*

@Andrius : I'll nuke people if i want >.>

Good to know.

VOTE: Elscouta, for this, his pre-DEFCON 3 play, and his reaction to Faraday. Especially this:

Claiming someone is town without explanation : a

classic

scum move

this is

not well known

has a scumtell, so scum usually don't try to avoid this.

Inaccurately calling on meta-authority to back up a shitty point, also backpedalling. I'd go so far as to say this backpedalling is

classic

!

Also,

Looks like i'm supposed to say something >.>

This bothers me too.

Elscouta is #1 by a long way.

The indirect defense of Faraday by Hinduragi is noted.

Calling you on your crap logic = defending me. lolk.

Something interesting is going on here. I'm going to let this sit in my brain for a day or so.

@Andrius

: You just discovered eavesdropper? As in, you read the ability the day after your preferences were due?

Enigma's point against Doombunny is backwards, or at best WIFOM. Scum are perhaps more likely to have read the rules in depth than town, and to have had their errors in understanding corrected by scumbuddies in their QT...
Still, I continue to get town vibes from Enigma. It's a gut read based off nothing more than tone, but it's there.

If the scum have the sub, then when claimtime comes, anyone with Fighter has a chance of catching the liar (as the natural fakeclaim for the person with the sub is a missile silo), so perhaps it's not so useless after all

[AurorusVox]

Hello, I'm still alive. I might only get off one post every two days, up until this weekend, and then after that I'll be coming onto campus once a day. In any case, I've been reading the thread on my phone, but for some reason it won't let me log in properly. So sorry, I'll try to keep this short...

That's not the terrorist wincon. That's all the wincons.

Is it the town's wincon for everyone to die?

Elscouta/Faraday debate

Looks like i'm supposed to say something >.>
[...]Gut read.

^Active lurking? My suspicions of active lurking itself were lessened when he started posting actual arguments. But we'll get onto those in a moment...

Without explanation

Claiming someone is town

without explanation

: a classic scum move

At this point the emphasis is on the lack of explanation, which I think is a fair point, though plenty of people make assertions without explicitly explaining why, so I'd treat it as a null tell. And, Faraday does go on to explain his reasoning...

I'm saying I think if Andrius was scum he'd have been told by his scumbuddies that he could pick from more than one area for his list.

I think this analysis makes sense. Unless all three scum thought you could only pick from one area, which is unlikely.


I'd also argue that "no explanations" is just the way that Faraday plays. It's irritating, but it does look to at least be consistent:

All 3 of your points are 100% wrong. No need to thank me.

Kewl no reasoning. I must say you make a very convincing argument.

Outing town tells

As for the "three points" themselves;

- First, town has no reason to say they believe someone to be town when this person is not attacked. It only helps scum to help decide on their nightkills.

I do think that outing town-tells helps scum since they can see who the "towniest" players are and get a gauge of how well they're mixing in with the crowd. However, town do have reasons to out their town reads every now and again. It helps narrow the list of people to scumhunt, and can be used to explain WHY you're narrowing the list.

- Second, scum has a lot of reasons to say someone is town. It "looks" like scumhunting, usually makes the scum take less pressure than an accusation, and has some buddying effect.

Do you think that Faraday's post, without explanation (your first emphasis) "looked" like scumhunting? Because I think if he wanted to look like he was scumhunting he would have included his reasons earlier. Also, Zheo made a good point for why scum

shouldn't

declare town reads.

sharing town reads leaves a paper trail, making it harder to go back on that later to push a mislynch. Scum doesn't have much of a motivation to cut their choices like that.

- Last, this is not well known has a scumtell, so scum usually don't try to avoid this.

You were caught in a contradiction here.

Inaccurately calling on meta-authority to back up a shitty point, also backpedalling. I'd go so far as to say this backpedalling is

classic

!

...it just makes me swing more towards the Faraday side of the argument.

Vote; Elscouta

[Elscouta]

. Especially this:

Claiming someone is town without explanation : a

classic

scum move

this is

not well known

has a scumtell, so scum usually don't try to avoid this.

Inaccurately calling on meta-authority to back up a shitty point, also backpedalling. I'd go so far as to say this backpedalling is

classic

!

Classic as in "i consider this move as a move that scum is really inclined to make"
Not well known as in "not all people are aware of this"

There is no contradiction there.

[AurorusVox]

If it's classic, why is it not well known?

[Elscouta]

The move is classic, but it's not well known as a tell. Look, there is even people arguing it's not...

[Enigma]

So it looks like we have done good, we have 2

confirmed

townies now, based on the fact that they failed to read the opening posts properly.

So let me get this right.
My argument, that skimming through posts is a scum tell is declared as a null read then a few pages down the track it is used to pro claim townies.
I'm really not in favor of such definitive calls this early, saying someone gives you a town feel is fine but we are less than 10 pages into this game.
Stupidity and ignorance are easy to feign regardless if you are scum or town.

Scummy response. Feeling pressured?

Your first point is silly, claiming town reads at random is a nulltell. Buddiyng is a scumtell, but Faraday's post doesn't really read as such. Also, I'm pretty sure his reasoning is obvious.

Faraday's reasoning? You mean #146-#150? Obvious? What am I missing out in those posts that you are seeing?

[Andrius]

@Andrius: You just discovered eavesdropper? As in, you read the ability the day after your preferences were due?

I was under the impression that I could only pick from Missile Silo/Offensive/Defensive, so I read down the list and saw what I wanted. I didn't give eavesdropper much though (as my prefered role took preference), but it seems as though it would be very useful to have in town hands now... but still; I'm happy with what I have.

So it looks like we have done good, we have 2 confirmed townies now, based on the fact that they failed to read the opening posts properly.

I find this statement highly questionble. While I have no qualms about being called pro-town, your statement rubs me the wrong way. Like it isn't sincere. Gut perhaps...

[Enigma]

It isn't meant to be sincere. For those who don't notice it's sarcastic.

Stop bread crumbing your role.