Mini 1036 - DEFCON Mafia - Over

[Elscouta]

Indeed, you can replace "voters" by "accusers" in my previous post if you prefer. Still you are testing the waters and indirectly adding fuel to the fire while trying to avoid commitment.

As for the tell, the fact that you don't accept it doesn't mean I can't use it (and it is not the main reason i'm voting you. By far).

[Hinduragi]

If I commit to you, you're getting lynched. And I am not ready to end D1 so I'm afraid your argument is invalid.

[Hinduragi]

...Holy shit. I thought you were at L-1 because I counted the votes from Enigma as being on you. I'll gladly commit to you.

Vote: Elscouta

Also, the reason I'm arguing about that point is the fact you aren't willing to explain it rather than the fact you're using it.

[SpyreX]

sociopath is for nuking, not voting. TIA

[AlmasterGM]

[Day 1, Vote Count 3 - Mob Rule]

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." --General George S. Patton

[Votes]

Andrius

(0)

AurorusVox

(0)

Doombunny9

(1) - Enigma

Elscouta

(5) - Andrius, Percy, AurorusVox, SpyreX, Hinduragi

Enigma

(2) - Zhero, Faraday

Faraday

(0)

Hinduragi

(2) - SocioPath, Elscouta

Papa Zito

(0)

Percy

(0)

SocioPath

(1) - Doombunny9

SpyreX

(0)

Zhero

(0)

Note Voting

(1) - RedCoyote

[Activity]

The deadline is 16 September 2010 at 5pm EST. No prods currently needed.

[Doombunny9]

Meh. Spyre is right. I doubt enough people will get on Socio before the day is over. Anyway, I'd rather vote Elscouta than Faraday, Enigma, etc. right now but I don't want the day to end so early so I'll just keep my vote here for the time being. I agree with Hinduragi, its not much of an argument if you aren't even supporting it.

[Faraday]

No shit. Why else why'd you be voting them? Stop avoiding the question and tell me why you really think Enigma is scummy.

Maybe later.

Unvote

Enigma is slowly fading out of my scumdar and I'm beginning to notice Faraday and Elscouta a lot more. Will reread later and make up my mind. I also really want to hear from PZ.

'Beginning to notice me a lot more', surely THAT'S NOT accurate is it? You've been going back and forth and calling me scummy for a little bit now.

[Faraday]

Confirmed townie is BS. I'm not calling anyone confirmed unless it's stipulated by the mod. Confirmed status is what make town lose during LYLO. It's a fucking illusion and does more harm to town than good.

What is this I don't even AH.

@Faraday
<STUFF>

Wow, okay but do you think Elscouta's scum at this stage. Yes or no?

[Faraday]

Woops I thought my vote was on elscouta.

Unvote Vote Elscouta

L-1 for those keeping score.

[AurorusVox]

I'd gladly welcome someone dropping a nuke on Faraday.

We've still got to drop 2 DEFCONs to get to the Nuke-dropping, IIRC.
We either wait 2 weeks to hit DEFCON 2, or we lynch someone to drop to DEFCON 2.

Nuke Faraday now?

Just realised. Andrius could be feigning ignorance to the rules. He seems to understand the DEFCON issue in that first post, but then seems to misunderstand it in the second. Something to bare in mind about the whole "ability picking" issue. Faraday, what do you make of that, seeing as Andrius' ignorance of the rules was your main reason for finding him townie?

---

After a reread, i would like to state that Hinduragi looks by a long way the most opportunistic of my voters.

Moreso than SpyreX? Are you sure you didn't just want to vote for Hindu because...someone else already had?

[Enigma]

Just realised. Andrius could be feigning ignorance to the rules. He seems to understand the DEFCON issue in that first post, but then seems to misunderstand it in the second. Something to bare in mind about the whole "ability picking" issue. Faraday, what do you make of that, seeing as Andrius' ignorance of the rules was your main reason for finding him townie?

QFT.

That and his

continuous

breadcrumbing (bread-crumbing is an effort, not a habit) really sends off bad vibes to me. There is no need to hint and hint what your role is.

The ignorance card is a easy choice to play as scum.

Your bread crumb trail is obvious. It doesn't take a genius to to guess what you have now.

Now I'm just trying to debate whether is the a ploy or you are actually so naive.

^What do other people think? (Yer I know my proof reading sucks but you get the jist)

This is exactly why I dislike people calling someone else confirmed town. It is just so easy to fake.

[AurorusVox]

From what I saw, he wasn't purposefully breadcrumbing, it just looked like you could work it out based on what he had said. More like a slip than a motivated action.

[Andrius]

Just realised. Andrius could be feigning ignorance to the rules. He seems to understand the DEFCON issue in that first post, but then seems to misunderstand it in the second. Something to bare in mind about the whole "ability picking" issue. Faraday, what do you make of that, seeing as Andrius' ignorance of the rules was your main reason for finding him townie?

I know about the general DEFCON play because I own the Demo. No nukes before DEFCON 1.
So I have background info. But when it comes to the mechanics of this mafia game I'm not so knowledgeable.
The second bit you quoted was a joke, since (obv) we can't nuke him until DEFCON 1 anyway.

That and his continuous breadcrumbing (bread-crumbing is an effort, not a habit) really sends off bad vibes to me. There is no need to hint and hint what your role is.

I don't actually mean to crumb half the time I do. See Harry Potter Mafia for fail-crumbing.
AND WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS ANYMORE. SSHH.

^What do other people think? (Yer I know my proof reading sucks but you get the jist)

This is exactly why I dislike people calling someone else confirmed town. It is just so easy to fake.

I don't like it either, but his interactions with me being stupid (aka, crumbing like woops) aren't exactly enough to drive a wagon on.

[Percy]

Hey guys, it's late and I have to go to bed, but please don't lynch anyone until I get the chance to post properly, kthx.

[SpyreX]

Moreso than SpyreX? Are you sure you didn't just want to vote for Hindu because...someone else already had?

Yea. He's flailing like a scum going down. Seriously, Percy had the right of it and no need for SERIOUS BUSINESS.

There's more than a few nuggets to come out of that chicken too come tomorrow. It's great.

MURDER DEATH SPREE

[Elscouta]

After a reread, i would like to state that Hinduragi looks by a long way the most opportunistic of my voters.

Moreso than SpyreX? Are you sure you didn't just want to vote for Hindu because...someone else already had?

No. SpyreX is as worthlessly bandwagony as usual (I already played with him). And yes, it's the previous vote on Hinduragi that made me read it in iso.

[SpyreX]

OHH SNAP META.

I'll let you go ahead and get lynched for that statement without sullying my hands on the filthy meta.

That was a swing and a miss, though.

[AurorusVox]

If elsie is at l-1, would it be a good time for him to claim what action he has? Or is it too early for that already?

[Doombunny9]

Maybe later.

How bout now?

Unvote, Vote: Faraday

'Beginning to notice me a lot more', surely THAT'S NOT accurate is it? You've been going back and forth and calling me scummy for a little bit now.

Notice the word 'more'. I did think you're scummy however, now you are standing out more to me. Even more so now due to your lack of explanations.

If elsie is at l-1, would it be a good time for him to claim what action he has? Or is it too early for that already?

Now would be a good time. Its a general rule that people claim at L-1.

[Elscouta]

In case you are waiting for a claim, don't expect anything from me, as I don't see any reason that a claim should influence a lynch in that setup.

[Hinduragi]

I can actually agree with him on this point. An ability claim is likely to tell us nothing unless he claims sub.

[Zhero]

Something about the Zhero/Enigma interaction is bothering me. Check out Zhero's ISO - the person he talks to the most, and is voting for, is Enigma, but it doesn't seem like a scumhunting effort; lots of clarification and agreement... Zhero's currently my #2.

Clarifying where he's coming from is scumhunting, and my only agreement with him is on a tangental point. If my being scum is largely based on interactions with Enigma, why am I your #2 behind Elscouta (who you're currently voting)?

The more I read Elscouta the more I think he's just poorly presenting his case.

In case you are waiting for a claim, don't expect anything from me, as I don't see any reason that a claim should influence a lynch in that setup.

There are roles I could see being less lynchable than others in this setup.

[Doombunny9]

as I don't see any reason that a claim should influence a lynch in that setup.

There are plenty of scenarios that could influence a setup. For example: if you chose Fighter we could test you to see if you were legit. Also, even if it didn't influence a lynch why wouldn't you claim? Even if it doesn't matter at all unless it hurts town you should do it anyway. What I see here is scum afraid of screwing up their claim. It takes a minute of your time if your a slow typer (and even then not even). So I reccomend you either claim or provide a reason about why it would hurt town.

[SpyreX]

The chickens grow larger. Their nuggets will feed us all.

This is bordering on one of those IF THIS IS SCUM lynches this game is gonna be cruise control for cool.

[RedCoyote]

Note

: I do not expect anyone to read my notes. I sum up my conclusions at the end of this post. If you care, however, how I've gotten to my conclusions, then you are welcome to do so. Replacements are a horrible, but necessary, solution to a rampant problem, so I try to make the transition as smooth as possible by just jumping in immediately. This post was delayed a bit because I'm in too many games, but it's current nonetheless. If you are in any ongoing games with me where I also may have replaced (you know who you are), that was a bit of a different situation where I crossreplaced into a game where I otherwise would not have. Naturally I'm approaching that game a little differently.

Anyways, I typed these notes up as I read through the game, and they're just rough reactions as to what's going on. Please skip to the conclusions at the end of my posts unless you want to read my recap of the game.

Notes as I read through the game

So I'm reading over the rules, and I've stopped at DEFCON 2. Why would the town want to go into DEFCON 2/1 (other than nuking)? Do the mafia not get a nightkill if we lynch before DEFCON 3? That's the way I'm reading it at least. Oh wait, I see, some of these abilities are downright tantalizing.

The night may be dark, but your radar screen is neon green. And it’s hard to miss stuff flashing in neon green.

XD

---

So I can't beat DEFCON in a 1 v. 1 against the computer. >_> lol

The thing you have to remember is kills give you two points, protecting your citizens only gives you one point.

---

It's true that the investigative abilities are important, but I think some uncertainty is a good thing too. If all townies pick Espionage, then scum automatically get their first pick of anything that's not Espionage. Like, say, a nuclear sub. I suggest people pick towards their playstyle and we leave it at that.

Although all the picking has been done for me, this is what I would've agreed with. NATO doesn't have the luxury of a secret, scheming, underground network (QT). Whatever is discussed will be plainly seen. Just go with what feels right and work with what you have.

---

I'm still undecided as to how to approach this.

12 players, 10 abilities, some of them completely useless to town/scum/both.

Still a toss up as to how I want to gamble. Which is why I just need a bit of clarification on how subsequent options are divided.

This is why this game is so awesome. Risk v.s. reward at its finest.

Although you continually bringing these negative, confusing theories to the forefront makes me nervous. It looks like everyone was pretty much settled on "going with the flow", as it were. You keep harking back to this idea that the town has a serious choice. I think everyone gets it. I see where you're coming from with the eliminating options idea, but I'm just not convinced that the town should be volunteering that much information out in the open.

On the other hand your post 64 is very well thought out, and, upon consideration, I actually agree with all of it.

---

I'm suspicious of Faraday - looks to me that he was trying to stifle the discussion without providing anything else to talk about (a'la Doombunny9's latest post).

I very much agree with this. I understand where he's coming from, but compared to a player like Doombunny, the difference is stark. One player is trying to just shutdown discussion, the other is engaging Enigma. There's a big difference here.

---

(No, the DEFCON level will continue to decrease numerically until it reaches DEFCON 1. The game will then remain in DEFCON 1 until a win condition is achieved. --AGM)

Oh, wow.

This makes sense now that I really think about it... but also we can get a lynch off before the scum even get a chance to kill, right? Or at least a traditional kill anyways (Stealth Bombers).

Hell, maybe we should get moving then.

---

Right now my (mild) pings are from Escoulta, Zhero and Hinduragi. I imagine the scum are talking a lot right now in their QTs to skirt around Espionage and try to balance their preference lists, so lurking and/or posting-for-the-sake-of-posting are mild scumtells for me, and they seem to fit the bill. Faraday almost does, but something about his attitude rubs me in my town places.

Very perceptive and most likely accurate. I would suspect the same thing, there are at least three different things to discuss that I can think of: General game strategies, scum/town/third party power selections, and covering themselves for the 10-30% QT drop rate.

---

I don't really agree with percy's lurker point, in practise. In theory it sounds like something scum would do but I know when I'm scum with daytalk it tends to get me to post slightly more than usual. I don't think it takes a lot of effort to keep up with a quicktopic and game thread either. Zhero agreeing with it being scummy is funny though.

It depends on the players on the scumteam. It's a good general way to approach the game though, I think.

---

I must say that I have a lot of doubts on the benefits of "scumhunting" while no votes are present, hence my relative silence. Hopefully the game will start soon.

In all seriousness though, I know it's pointless discussion but I really don't know how fruitful scumhunting will be until everyone gets a chance to put their vote where their mouth is.

:\

Y'all can speak for yourselves, I'm getting some good info here.

---

Well gee, if no one claims sub, even if they are lying through their teeth, THAT MEANS SCUM HAS A SUB.

I don't agree with this, or with Elscouta's absolutes.

Does a Vig claim on D1? This is effectively what we're asking here. I want to discuss this point more, because I don't like how everyone is just jumping at the chance to claim their sub status.

---

Doombunny, are you stupid? Seriously? Have you even made an effort to read and understand the game rules or do you just plan on being as clueless as you are for the entire game?

Why is stupidity a scumtell for you?

I think hes scummy for making rash judgments without taking the time to understand the game mechanics first.

Honestly, this sounds extremely forced to me. I think you jumped the gun and you don't want to back down.

---

holy shit, this sub speculation is like 400% absolutely fucking retarded. if scum have it they'll probably just fucking lie.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was thinking. It blew my mind that everyone was tripping over themselves to claim whether they had it or not. It's either fake activity or it's not thinking the game through well enough.

---

I'm even pondering a hunt to determine if scum have air base or another scum-like ability, because that would allow us to pseudo-clear people that

don't

have these abilities.

Stop. Please, just stop right there. This stinks to high heaven. I mean, how much more clearly does it need to be spelled out? I'd imagine people chose abilities to

keep

the scum from getting them just as often as they would to have it themselves. "Clearing" people by outing abilities is the silliest idea I've ever heard of. It's completely a lose/lose situation for the town. The scum will put on their best face because they can pretty it up in their QT, while the town is stuck feeding the scum information.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you or something, but this is, like, blantant rolefishing, imo.

---

For the scum/town reading the mechanics, it's mafia theory and you can't prove it and reasons for "scum are more likely to do this" are pure speculation. I have seen scum not read the topic and I have seen town not read the topic. It's not exactly a slight towntell at all if you ask me. I view it like the commonly debated issue of "is lurking a scumtell" in newbie games. This isn't related to scumhunting at all the way I see it and isn't justified as a reason to vote or not vote someone.

Agreed with this, but I didn't agree with your sub point. It's still missing the gigantic elephant in the room: why would the scum be honest about having the sub?

---

I'd gladly welcome someone dropping a nuke on Faraday.

I'll bet you would. He's the only one with enough balls to stand up against your, "everyone tell me your abilities" scheme. Has Comrade Stalin promised you a medal if you take this information to Moscow?

---

I'm saying I think if Andrius was scum he'd have been told by his scumbuddies that he could pick from more than one area for his list.

This is a good point, but Andrius could just as easily be faking all of this. He probably has the subs, after all.

---

Disagree with the entire post 188 of Doombunny's. Although most of it is on a theoretical basis. Percy's post 192 is like the anti-Doombunny post, so I naturally find myself agreeing with a lot of it.

---

Stupidity and ignorance are easy to feign regardless if you are scum or town.

I'm glad you pointed this out, it saves me from having to do so later.

---

@Enigma: 2 confirmed townies my ass. Andrius just didn't read the rules. It's very possible he could be scum who didn't talk about the missile silo/offensive/defensive thing in his QT because he thought it was obvious, hence why he would mention it in the thread. Faraday proved my own town theory wrong. Also, why are you looking at ISO's for breadcrumbing?

He was being sarcastic. This goes for Andrius/Faraday too, who I think misread Enigma's post just as you did. Read the entire post.

---

VOTE: HINDURAGI

THIS IS GOOD.

Why would scum want to confirm townies? Unless you think Andrius is a scumbuddy?

Also, where the hell have you been this game?

---

Also, welcome Red

*waves*

---

Hey guys, it's late and I have to go to bed, but please don't lynch anyone until I get the chance to post properly, kthx.

I've read enough. I'm giving you about 12 hours from now, give or take. I will end the day if no one else has/if the Elscouta wagon stays together.

---

In case you are waiting for a claim, don't expect anything from me, as I don't see any reason that a claim should influence a lynch in that setup.

Quite possibly the first rational thing you've said.

Actually, that's a little harsh, but, yeah, unless you claim to have a sub then I doubt it would make a difference.

---

The more I read Elscouta the more I think he's just poorly presenting his case.

[...]

There are roles I could see being less lynchable than others in this setup.

Love the fencesitting. You're not on the Elscouta wagon, but if you were I would go to town on this. It's still bad regardless though, because this is you basically saying, "If Elscouta is town I want town points and if he's scum I want to appear like I was being reasonable".

Let's scumscale it up,


[

Town

]------AV-Percy--Faraday-Hindu--Enigma--Andrius-[

∙

]--Spyrex--SP-Zhero----Elscouta------[

Scum

]

Nuts to the haters with their whining about giving town reads. We can have that tired old theory argument if you want, but you won't be changing my mind. Learn to live with it, because you're kidding yourself if you think other players can't put two and two together and figure out where you stand even though you're refusing to tell people who you think sounds townie.

I absolutely love how AV and Percy have been playing this game. Both of their playstyles connect to me well, and I feel like they've had important things to say. Neither of them has been afraid to make a move, and they're both currently making the right move. The only negative I've seen here is the sub situation, which I want to address now.

I'm just going to assume that it was Elscouta or someone else who posted early pulled a wool over everyone's eyes. Surely y'all must have done this without thinking it through very clearly. Faraday is seemingly the only person I've seen talking sense about subs in that it was a complete waste of time to sit around asking if anyone has them. Normally I would completely hold my ground to this position, but given how that Faraday and I are the only players left having not given and answer, I won't allow scum/misdirected townies to pigeonhole me into being scum because I didn't answer.

I did not get the subs.

This will be the only thing I will say about big Papa's ability choice, and I will treat any further questions about it this early in the game with the utmost suspicion. This is a good segue into my scumreads.

Given how early in the game we still are, neither SP nor Zhero are particularly huge scumreads. Both players, I've noticed, have been particularly absent from the game. Not in any large capacity, but their activity is such that they do not seem to have any real stake in anything. Both of their votes are on useless targets (but given that there is no real alternative wagon, it's probably arguable that all non-Elscouta votes are useless). SP makes some weird vote/comment in post 218 about Hindu, totally out of the blue and backwards. It would probably be worse, however, if he was actually here to talk about it some more, because it's steeped in useless WIFOM about whether or not Andrius is confirmed town. That entire discussion, although Faraday's original point seemed sincere, was driven into this strange WIFOMy discussion that was just beyond useless. SP seemed like he was trying to benefit from it more than anyone though. Zhero's inactivity is possibly worse that SP's given that I just cannot recall any major position he's actually taken so far. Most of the players have found their way into some argument (Elscouta v.s. Faraday, Doombunny v.s. Enigma, Andrius' alignment, sub talk, nuking, etc), but I think Zhero has, more than missed these discussions, actively ignored having a voice in them. His post 246 sticks out as some major fencesitting, although, to be fair, he isn't voting Elscouta.

Speaking of Elscouta, I think a lynch is in order here. Not even so much about his bickering with Faraday, you know, because I think that's just a bunch of theory argument. Anyone can say "X is a scumtell", and if they genuinely believe it, then that's what they're going to do. His interaction with Faraday has almost nothing to do with my scumread of him really. No, the two main reasons I'm scratching my chin with Elscouta are, one, Percy pointing out, and Elscouta admitting, that he didn't think DEFCON 4 discussion was advantageous, and two, his blantant rolefishing attempts in both the subhunt and his further attempts at wanting to fish for more information. Percy points out that the scum may be more quiet in DEFCON 4 as they attempt to strategize and plan their attack, given how complex this game can be in its early stages. Elscouta, in post 95, shoots this down, and further elaborates that there have been no benefits from DEFCON 4 "scumhunting". Later, in what I think is the worst post of the game, post 151, we have Elscouta hinting at the idea that those with an air base should possibly claim because it would pseudo-clear them. Not only is this just completely out of left field, it's a very thinly-veiled information grab. The subhunt was bad enough, but to talk about passive abilities as well? Forget it. It's time to take the pinko out to pasture.

Mod

, if the town gets a lynch off before DEFCON 2, will the Warsaw Pact have access to Stealth Bombers?

Depending on the answer to this question, I'm ready to see this lynch through. Percy wants to make a post, so I'll give him a few hours, but I think this lynch should go through before the weekend gets here.

(The DEFCON level decreases at the beginning of each day phase, so the town effectively has two lynches before the Stealth Bombers become active. --AGM)