Mini 1036 - DEFCON Mafia - Over

[Zhero]

And so the stalling continues, I suppose.

I think people should think what the scum motivations are for Andy acting like he is. True, he did out some power roles, but that was unintentional. It would all have been avoided if Enigma wasn't an idiot and just shut fuck up when he saw the breadcrumbs(LIKE EVERYONE SHOULD.) and Spy for being derpy with his logic up there(OH MY GOD, I THINK ANDY IS A COP WITH A GUILTY. I THINK I'LL VOTE FOR HIM INSTEAD OF THE GUY HE'S VOTING FOR).

Seriously, you guys brought this upon yourselves. You may not be familiar with Andy's play style, but the idiotic 'I'll call out this guy's breadcrumbs!' and the subsequent 'COP WITH GUILTY!? VOTE: COP' shenanigans are fucking retarded.

You two should be ashamed of yourselves. Seriously. >.>. I'm just not sure if this stupidity is filled with scum-intent or whatnot.

This is ick. Really ick. You don't see the scum motivations for outing power roles? It's Enigma's fault that Andrius is rolefishing? SpyreX is wrong to suspect someone who's "a power role that has a guilty but no not a cop I'm not telling la la la"?

Painting the people suspicious of you as scummy because they vote the outed cop (they didn't, remember, you're not a cop, and you're not really outed, per se) is incredibly scummy.

Andrius, again, are you suspicious of Enigma, and why?

I know that this slot is in heavy suspicion, so please ask questions etc. I have knowledge of Andy's meta, so I think I can explain his actions for him better.

Don't like this either, Andrius can't explain his own posts?

Zhero #154: is playing a lot like his scum-self in Advance Wars Mafia wherein he's more interested in talking mechanics...
Zhero #246: Seems to be a lot more interested in defending himself, then adding a worthless defense to Els. Also, similar to Advance Wars Mafia etc. etc.

This set off a little ping in my head, so I went and reskimmed that game to see what you meant. My ISO is far from mechanics heavy, with virtually no self-defense (since certain people thought I was obv-town through most of the game). Meta-tells in general are pretty weak, especially with only one game to reference. At least peruse a town-Zhero first. This seriously reads like setting up a later case on someone who people have already expressed some suspicion of.

Vote: Calcifer

Enigma, I'm still curious who you think is scum.

[Calcifer]

This is ick. Really ick. You don't see the scum motivations for outing power roles? It's Enigma's fault that Andrius is rolefishing? SpyreX is wrong to suspect someone who's "a power role that has a guilty but no not a cop I'm not telling la la la"?
Painting the people suspicious of you as scummy because they vote the outed cop (they didn't, remember, you're not a cop, and you're not really outed, per se) is incredibly scummy.

I'm just not sure if this stupidity is filled with scum-intent or whatnot.

Don't like this either, Andrius can't explain his own posts?

You people(specifically Enigma) don't like Andy's explanations. I can explain it better for him. If you don't like that, fine.

This set off a little ping in my head, so I went and reskimmed that game to see what you meant. My ISO is far from mechanics heavy, with virtually no self-defense (since certain people thought I was obv-town through most of the game). Meta-tells in general are pretty weak, especially with only one game to reference. At least peruse a town-Zhero first. This seriously reads like setting up a later case on someone who people have already expressed some suspicion of.

Haha, no.

In #154, I was talking about what you were doing AT THAT PART of the game, not your ISO as a whole. You were absent from page 2, 3 IIRC. And while some people were looking for scum during those times, you weren't and were just posting along to add some mechanics discussion every now and then.

My point about your #246 post needs to be taken in context. Before #246, Your last post with real content was #154. After that there was a series of 1-2 line posts answering questions, and then #246 was the boiling point. Those posts were more interested in answering questions and some self-clarification but not much else.

Also, how is using meta scummy? Weak, I'd slightly agree. But scummy? That needs explanation. Despite your complaints of "OOhh, we've only been in 1 game together plus meta suxxxxxx", that does not make my attack scummy(unless of course, you can explain why it is).

[Enigma]

How did he not force me out?

He came out and voted me, when asked why he claimed it was role related information. Which conventionally only he has access to.
Now if I didn't know any better I would think he just claimed a cop guilty on me. But both me and you know it's not the case.
Tell me, how am I to defend myself without exposing the PR's.

Is this going to be a dual role effort or is it just going to be you posting?

Also, what is it with him thinking I'm scum based on the flavor text? Honestly???

[Enigma]

@Zhero
I'm not ready to give a comprehensive list with reasons yet here's just a few.

Zhero: For tunneling me the entire game and completely ignoring all other aspects of the game. ZERO comment on the Escoulta lynch. Just check your ISO.

And conveniently I don't know how he managed to do it. These are all my next suspects perfectly summed up. Just needed you in there.

Sociopath
SpyreX
Percy

One more question for Andrius.
Why that list of people in particular?

[Calcifer]

Holy Fuck. Apparently, I skimmed over that very specific albeit important post. (Note to self: Pay attention to hydra/replacee's posts). I'll ask Andy. That DOES need some explanation. I'll have a long hard talk with Andy and get right back atcha.

[Zhero]

You people(specifically Enigma) don't like Andy's explanations. I can explain it better for him. If you don't like that, fine.

It's not the explanations so much as the lack thereof.

Haha, no.

In #154, I was talking about what you were doing AT THAT PART of the game, not your ISO as a whole. You were absent from page 2, 3 IIRC. And while some people were looking for scum during those times, you weren't and were just posting along to add some mechanics discussion every now and then.

My point about your #246 post needs to be taken in context. Before #246, Your last post with real content was #154. After that there was a series of 1-2 line posts answering questions, and then #246 was the boiling point. Those posts were more interested in answering questions and some self-clarification but not much else.

Also, how is using meta scummy? Weak, I'd slightly agree. But scummy? That needs explanation. Despite your complaints of "OOhh, we've only been in 1 game together plus meta suxxxxxx", that does not make my attack scummy(unless of course, you can explain why it is).

My point is that you're using meta as an authority where it doesn't belong. My Day 1 play contrasts with my AW play much more than it compares, and it seems weird to me that you'd bring up the meta unless you felt you needed an extra crutch to build your case.

And conveniently I don't know how he managed to do it. These are all my next suspects perfectly summed up. Just needed you in there.

Sociopath
SpyreX
Percy

One more question for Andrius.
Why that list of people in particular?

Then why have you resisted answering his request for your read on them?

Holy Fuck. Apparently, I skimmed over that very specific albeit important post. (Note to self: Pay attention to hydra/replacee's posts). I'll ask Andy. That DOES need some explanation. I'll have a long hard talk with Andy and get right back atcha.

What, the flavor text thing? Yeah, that deserves an answer. See also post 307.

[Enigma]

I'm not ready to give a comprehensive list with reasons yet here's just a few.

[Enigma]

Geh.
I'm tried of trying to breadcrumb but not to at the same time. Woudn't be in this position if it wasn't for Andrius. cbf.

VOTE: Zhero
For role fishing. I'm purposely trying not to divulge any more information about what my role is. It's already a very small list to choose from, and with no doc I'm very likely screwed due to having a PR.
Obviously if Andrius has radar, what pinged me to his ability, it is that list. Obviously I used my ability on one of those people...

[Zhero]

Your role cannot possibly be the reasoning behind a four-person scumlist on Day 2.
We're all power roles in this game, the only thing making you a more obvious target is you playing the martyr.
VV is right, stop crumbing in response to Andrius's crumbing. If either of you have info you think town needs to know, spill it. If not, remain silent. Playing silly guessing games distracts the town from actual legitimate conversation and bogs the game down.
You've made 19 posts Day 2, and the only actual case you've made is a weak one on me after being prodded to multiple times. You're voting me for rolefishing, seriously? Asking you to take a stance isn't rolefishing. Even if you targetted one of Spy/Soc/Percy, you claim to have suspicions on all of them. It's justifiable for me to be interested in what they are.

[Enigma]

No, you don't have the luxury to state what is justifiable.

It doesn't concern you because you haven't been interested in anything else apart from me being scummy.
Your ENTIRE ISO relates directly to me from Defcon 4. Barely any mention of anyone else.
You have a total of TWO posts outside of RVS that doesn't have my name in it. You've made 16 posts out of RVS. 14 of them relate to me. That's pretty pathetic.

Why's that? Afraid of having any connections to your scum buddies when you flip scum?
Why did you not make a single comment about the Escoulta lynch?
You say I don't mention it in your case against me ... you have got to be fucking kidding me. Look at your god damn ISO.

No we aren't all power roles and secondly half of them are useless to town. So I already am an obvious target ever since Andrius called me out.
I'm crumbing because idiots like you are trying to role fish.

And no you've asked me twice about my suspects and I promptly answered the 2nd time. I missed the first one because I, as well as everyone else was a bit preoccupied with the Andrius issue.
Stop trying to make a case out of nothing.

[Enigma]

Also I just read your entire case again, it's pretty bad lol. It's Defcon 2 and you are still drooling half your points of Defcon 4 and 5.

You said I have posted so many times yet that's the best case you can offer against me? LAWL!
I have already provided arguments to all the accusations you made against me, yet you have refused to acknowledge them preferring to base your scum claims of RVS at this stage in the game.

More Zhero votes please. This guy is badddddd!

[Percy]

Wheeee drunkposting

On the sub claim: Look, we seem to be pretty sure the scum have the sub, but most of the townies have no reason to be certain. There are, as I see it, two options:
(1) We do a massclaim of preference lists, along with a massclaim of abilities. And we do it

today

.
(2) We don't massclaim until endgame.

It's the preference lists that will be monstrously hard to fake. If we do it popcorn style and scum are forced to put their preference list down first, then any lie they make will almost certainly be detected soon after. That means scum will probably tell the truth, and so we'll find out who has the sub. Then what, we lynch him for a liar? Interrogate people on their choices?

I don't think the benefits of any claim plan are a good idea right now. The info gain for town is potentially good but probably dubious and packed with WIFOM, but the scum will end up knowing exactly who has what. I can see why it would be tempting to know where the sub is, and why a claim might sound like a good idea, so trying to make discussion around this issue sound scummy is also underhanded. Let's just fucking stop talking about it, that would be awesome.

No claims or crumbs or any setup anything at all until later, guys, for real

---

Great, so, Andrius+tag team partner VasudeVa:

It would all have been avoided if Enigma wasn't an idiot and just shut fuck up when he saw the breadcrumbs(LIKE EVERYONE SHOULD.)

This is probably good advice, in general. I called Enigma out for similar play earlier in the game. But in this instance I can see it from Engima's perspective too. Andrius put a "I have an

objective

reason for voting this way" spin on his vote, and Enigma wanted to know what was going on, then Andrius got really cryptic.

(Hi VV btw)

He started this mess the moment he got the urge to expose me based on his investigation. And now I have to clean up the crap he started.
...
Why would you force a PR whose alignment could very well be town to reveal himself?

I don't know about that, Enigma. Nobody was

forcing

you to claim. If you felt forced, then you shouldn't have.

I'm left feeling that Enigma gets the better of the exchange, but I'm pretty sure they're both town. I was interested in reading SpyreX's account, but I left without a read on it either way.

Now, I'm up to Enigma's complete overreaction and subsequent vote on Zhero for rolefishing, of all things. Oh god. This sloppy mess. This is a goddamned

sloppy uninteresting mess

, and I'm sick of reading about it.

---

OK, so, Hinduragi. He and Sociopath are coasting, and Hinduragi's looking not so good in my PoE chart. But of both of them, I actually kinda like Sociopath's point against Hinduragi.

@RedCoyote

: What's your read on the Hinduragi slot?

---

But still, that only increases my scumread of Doombunny. There's a point to be had in Socio's post, but Doombunny just says of it:

... a worthwhile post albeit the reasoning was weak.

What does that even mean? It reads to me like "it has content but I'm going to disregard that because I'm painting a picture where Socio is contentless scum".
In terms of pressuring lurkers for coasting, Doombunny's done so inconsistently (i.e. only on Sociopath) and when he posts, he doesn't seem to pay attention to what he posts. And after all that DEFCON4 talk of "meaningful vs meaningless conversations". His posts today are pretty content light.

I don't like lurkerhunting at the best of times, but there's a seriously scummy way to do it, and Doombunny's case feels like scum going after a mislynch.

Also, my calling Doombunny's vote OMGUS was an absolute joke. If anyone can be accused of OMGUS, it's Sociopath. But his reaction was much more defensive than I expected.

---

Where's Faraday?

[Enigma]

Meh: After the mess I caused I would be up for linking preference lists today.

I would suggest though, posting preference lists but not actually stating what you got to make it harder for scum to lie during popcorn.

[Percy]

OK, already explained why that's a bad idea.

Besides, if the scum have the preference lists, they'll know who has the abilities they want to remove, or at least can make a shortlist. What does it give us, beyond hypothetical lie-catching later?

The reason we claim today rather than later is that preference lists makes lying harder. With probably at least two players dead before tomorrow starts (and so we have no way of knowing their preference lists), there is wiggle room, and lie-catching becomes less likely. But still, it would be better if we all just shut the fuck up about setup speculation, crumbs and claims. There's plenty of interesting interaction going on, and the town needs to dig in to that now to look for scum - not rely on logic puzzles later.

[Enigma]

Scum can lie about their preference list to incriminate a townie and no one will know for certain? Becomes a whole mess of WIFOM against probability.

I'm going to sit on the idea over night too tired to think right now.

Why are we claiming again? To out the sub? Or to get the town investigative roles killed for a trade off to out one liar?
Sure we will know who has what abilities, doesn't confirm their alignment at all. Town PR's become redundant to a degree.

[SocioPath]

Don't worry, I won't hold that against you. <3

Posts like these are why I'm voting you.

Oh? Not because you think I'm scum?
But because of posts like that?
A post where I state that the OMGUS-ness of things won't be used against you?
Because claims of that are silly?
Oh, okay.

@Socio- What is the reason behind you voting me?

HMMM.
Well Percy helped spell out a good chunk of it.

BUT LETS BREAK THIS DOWN.

You've been obstinate towards me this entire game, at first regarding basic simple things like discussion in of itself.
But that doesn't matter.

What does though is this:
I make a post detailing Hindu's scumtasticness, because people weren't understanding simple posts, and make a line about your dumbness, and all you do is COMMENT ON THE ONE LINE, IGNORING THE REST, AND CONTINUING TO SPOUT OUT "CONTENTLESS".
NOT ONLY THAT, YOU PAINT IT OFF AS A "DEFENSE".
HOLY FUCK.



In other news, I've NEVER seen a person replace into a game as THEMSELVES PLUS ANOTHER PERSON.
I mean, I would REALLY like a good explanation of THAT one.
As opposed to just STARTING THE GAME AS A HYDRA.

The only thought that comes into my mind is that the role was TOO COMPLEX and NEEDED MORE HEADS TO DEAL WITH IT.
But that doesn't even make any sense since this game's roles are all open.
The only complex factors is SCUM SCUM SCUM.
Especially given the SCUM TALK LEAKING FACTOR.
I refuse to comment further on the matter until explained.

SP #267: What happened to Hindu?

WHAT ABOUT HIM?

The fact that DB started heavily attacking me after my Hindu-ing only strengthens my resolve that Hindu is scum.
DB wanted my focus pulled from Hindu, and to try and throw me on the defensive to pull my efforts from elsewhere.

Then there is the fact that Hindu isn't saying shit, so there is no point in focusing on him at this point.
I'm not one to play "TUNNEL THE NONENTITY" game.
Nothing I've said is any less meaningful just because my vote moved and Hindu is non-responsive.

[Faraday]

i was getting drunk. gonna read now I guess.

[Faraday]

enigma's posts on this page look really town.

[Doombunny9]

arg lots of new stuff, just skimming through this time. If there's anything anyone wants me to talk about that I miss fell free to point it out.

What does that even mean? It reads to me like "it has content but I'm going to disregard that because I'm painting a picture where Socio is contentless scum".

It means just like it sounds, weak reasoning but I could see it coming from a townie perspective.

Also, my calling Doombunny's vote OMGUS was an absolute joke.

Yeah because it certainly souned like one. To me it just looks like someone trying to cover up a slip. Also, what you call overdefensive I call playstyle, go figure.

Oh? Not because you think I'm scum?
But because of posts like that?

Or maybe because those posts are why I think you're scum because they're hella scummy thus why I'm voting you. Let's think a lil harder next time.

and all you do is COMMENT ON THE ONE LINE, IGNORING THE REST, AND CONTINUING TO SPOUT OUT "CONTENTLESS".

So I'm scum because I ignored your case on Hindu? Even though I said that it was one of the few posts I actually liked? I did not ignore the rest of your post. If you wanted anything more than the 'I liked it' than too bad for you because I'm not going to go around commenting on everyones thoughts about everyone else. That's 12 people (11 now) times the 11 people they have to comment on (10 now) plus the amount of times they changed their opinion about that person or said something new about them. If you want me to make that many comments then no. I'm just going to comment on what I think is scummy and leave it at that.

(Inb4 Percy calls that last paragraph overdefensive XD)

[Calcifer]

Andrius, are you deliberately being as confusing as possible?

In ISO 24-25, you act suspicious of Enigma.
In 26, you 'notice' Rule 15.
In 27 you say you're voting Enigma for role-related info.
In 29 you say you were voting for gut/Rule 15, and unvote, even though you 'noticed' Rule 15 the day before.
You offer a claim in 29, and then resist it in 31.
In 33 your motives are now 'gut, and stuff', but you insinuate that you're suspicious still? (after the unvote?)

You're putting a lot of work into saying nothing at all. Please clarify, are you suspicious of Enigma and why?

Andy was suspicious of Enigma, partially because of the result(tip: It's not cop.), but he's gullible and really thought that flavor was indicative of alignments.

My point is that you're using meta as an authority where it doesn't belong. My Day 1 play contrasts with my AW play much more than it compares, and it seems weird to me that you'd bring up the meta unless you felt you needed an extra crutch to build your case.

X

Are you attempting to discredit my interpretation? It's MY interpretation of YOUR play and this little defense of yours is moot. Also, meta attacks are meta attacks. I'm suspicious of your play because of past experience regardless of how weak the meta attack is. It's not a crutch, it's more like an addendum. My main attacks on you are: Lurking/not adding much to discussion D0 and mostly interested in selfdefense/clarification with addnm: I think I've seen this before. Even IF you've changed along the way, it does not matter AT THAT POINT.

How did he not force me out?

He came out and voted me, when asked why he claimed it was role related information. Which conventionally only he has access to.
Now if I didn't know any better I would think he just claimed a cop guilty on me. But both me and you know it's not the case.
Tell me, how am I to defend myself without exposing the PR's.

Is this going to be a dual role effort or is it just going to be you posting?

Also, what is it with him thinking I'm scum based on the flavor text? Honestly???

He really didn't, he says he was reaction-fishing(not inherently bad.). Although your reaction was a little too much(but, I too understand why now.). I'm not sure how you would have defended yourself without ending up like this too though, but he really did it in the interest of looking for scum.

I(Vas), however, do think you are Town right about now. He said that he targeted you because he had a gut feeling you were scummy + flavor(which is the silly part, but I'll be as transparent as I can.)

In other news, I've NEVER seen a person replace into a game as THEMSELVES PLUS ANOTHER PERSON.
I mean, I would REALLY like a good explanation of THAT one.
As opposed to just STARTING THE GAME AS A HYDRA.

The only thought that comes into my mind is that the role was TOO COMPLEX and NEEDED MORE HEADS TO DEAL WITH IT.
But that doesn't even make any sense since this game's roles are all open.
The only complex factors is SCUM SCUM SCUM.
Especially given the SCUM TALK LEAKING FACTOR.
I refuse to comment further on the matter until explained.

If you were Andy, attempted to make the most of your PR and had multiple people calling you stupid instead of listening to your explanations, you'd get demoralized too. Why the fuck are you calling a REPLACEMENT scummy? Are you seriously saying that scum are more likely to replace out/hydra into a game?

----

In other news: Zhero, Hindu, Doombunny9 are all scumzzz. So many scum, so little time.

Vote: Zhero

Hi Percy~! >w<

[Calcifer]

Oh shit. Mod, please fix the quote tags?

[SpyreX]

All those words are still not answering the question presented.

[Calcifer]

What question? I might have skimmed over it.

[Calcifer]

Oh wait, it's about the soft claim shenanigans right? Nope, no claim here. I will say that your logic is faulty and you might have missed something, so check again.

[SpyreX]

Nah I'm good. That softclaim is garbage and you're not getting away with it.

If we've gotta do this the old fashioned way where you get up a rope I'm pretty sure it can happen that way.

Your call.